The New Testament was written in Hebrew (not Greek)

[gregoryfl]

 :iagree:

[gregoryfl]

Don't tell that to any feminist activists, bro, or you might catch some heat for it.

For anyone who might be offended, we can be thankful that, while even today many who speak the Hebrew language still refer to their husbands as ba'ali (my owner), YHWH promised that there would be a time when he would not be referred to as ba'ali, but as ishi (my man).

Hos 2:18  יח והיה ביום ההוא נאם יהוה תקראי אישי ולא תקראי לי עוד בעלי
Hos 2:16 It will be in that day," says Yhwh, "that you will call me 'my husband,' and no longer call me 'my master.'

Ronen

[rosered]

Don't tell that to any feminist activists, bro, or you might catch some heat for it.

For anyone who might be offended, we can be thankful that, while even today many who speak the Hebrew language still refer to their husbands as ba'ali (my owner), YHWH promised that there would be a time when he would not be referred to as ba'ali, but as ishi (my man).

Hos 2:18  יח והיה ביום ההוא נאם יהוה תקראי אישי ולא תקראי לי עוד בעלי
Hos 2:16 It will be in that day," says Yhwh, "that you will call me 'my husband,' and no longer call me 'my master.'

Ronen

  Hi Ronen
   :thumbsup:

  Its weird I was just looking up the   seven women  taking a hold of one man

  in Isaiah 4   1For seven women will take hold of one man in that day, saying, "We will eat our own bread and wear our own clothes, only let us be called by your name; take away our reproach!" 2In that day the Branch of the LORD will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth will be the pride and the adornment of the survivors of Israel....

  I was thinking but could be wrong   if it is the 7 churches/women  in the right hand of the Lord in Rev 2 and 3 ?
Just curious to yours or anyone opinion

[micah7:9]

Don't tell that to any feminist activists, bro, or you might catch some heat for it.

For anyone who might be offended, we can be thankful that, while even today many who speak the Hebrew language still refer to their husbands as ba'ali (my owner), YHWH promised that there would be a time when he would not be referred to as ba'ali, but as ishi (my man).

Hos 2:18  יח והיה ביום ההוא נאם יהוה תקראי אישי ולא תקראי לי עוד בעלי
Hos 2:16 It will be in that day," says Yhwh, "that you will call me 'my husband,' and no longer call me 'my master.'

Ronen

Can we say Love! :dsunny:

[gregoryfl]

  Its weird I was just looking up the   seven women  taking a hold of one man

  in Isaiah 4   1For seven women will take hold of one man in that day, saying, "We will eat our own bread and wear our own clothes, only let us be called by your name; take away our reproach!" 2In that day the Branch of the LORD will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth will be the pride and the adornment of the survivors of Israel....

  I was thinking but could be wrong   if it is the 7 churches/women  in the right hand of the Lord in Rev 2 and 3 ?
Just curious to yours or anyone opinion

I have not heard of that, so would have to think on it to offer my opinion.  :dontknow: At first glance I see the similarity of 7, but there are differences which do not appear to mesh with both accounts as to the character of the women and the character of the assemblies.

[WhiteWings]

Don't tell that to any feminist activists, bro, or you might catch some heat for it.

Feminists are so cute :-)

Some people just see problems were they are not.
"I'm yours forever" is something both men and women say to each other when in love. Are they making statements of slavery and ownership? Maybe someone from another culture would assume so; but for English speaking people it just means "I really, really, really love you."

This thread started out as NT books being written in Hebrew. Later the thread became an idiom thread. Maybe I should have started a new one....
Anyway it serves as proof that literal translation of a book, any book including the Bible, rarely is the best approach.
"I'm yours forever." simply and undeniably is a statement of ownership. Every lexicon will show you that "yours" is about owning something. But we all know that's not what those words are about. Likewise we can without any doubt prove the meaning of Hebrew and Greek words.... and still be totally wrong because idioms never are the sum of the literal meanings of the words.

Idioms are (part of) the proof that the NT was written* in Hebrew. Simply because those idioms only exited in Hebrew and not in Greek. I know the argument that they spoke Aramaic and even that the NT was written in Aramaic. While that's more and more disputed by scholars it doesn't really change the discussion because Armiac isn't Greek.

*=Likely you many times read my posts and thought something like: He did spell the words correctly but why did he switch noun and verb?
That's because I'm Dutch and I'm unable to get out my Dutch mindset, of if you wish grammar rules out of my English. Good linguists can spot Dutch, German, French, etc people from a mile away when writing in English.
The NT Greek is even worse. The translators didn't even attempt to replace Hebrew idioms with Greek idioms. When doing a one on one translation from Greek to Hebrew, the result is a verse that usually perfect Hebrew (complete with idioms)

The most important aspect is culture. No matter if the NT was written in directly in Greek or translated from Hebrew or Armiac it's writers were Jews. A Jew, especially in that time, wasn't defined as someone who speaks Hebrew. Every fiber of them was soaked in OT related thought patterns. The whole society was build around OT feasts, laws, customs and of course God and His Temple. So if <insert your favorite person> communicated with Gentiles they may have spoke Greek, Latin or any other language to them, but brain and heart were still completely Jewish.

So to summarize, even if it would be proven without a doubt the NT was originally written in Latin it doesn't remove the underlying Jewish mindset.

[rosered]

So to summarize, even if it would be proven without a doubt the NT was originally written in Latin it doesn't remove the underlying Jewish mindset.

    This is a great point taken   Tony !

  You are so right and they  are Gods chosen ,
  and certainly   as a nation and elect of God  , they have suffered  and made an example of   from the beginning of   keeping record!
Our Bible 
I agree  with you the patterns and concepts and language  and mainly in my opinion  EXAMPLE set   as first chosen   is an excellent    learning start  .
the original Eastern  concept with Hebrew origin /roots

[eaglesway]

IMO it is not that simple, and that is why we labor as we do to insure proper translation/rendering of original thoughts and words.

For instance, the Latin Vulgate translated Sheol/Hades into Inferno. This introduced the yoking together of a Latin mindset concerning death and judgment distinctly different from the Hebrew thought connected to the word sheol- introducing the concept of flames in sheol, which was never there in the hebrew scriptures. 1500 years later, the KJV translators were translating from an incorrect Latin mindset and rendered the words sheol and gehenna, "hell" - imparting and reaffirming the whole abysmally distorted view of the doctrine of eternal judgment.

[WhiteWings]

Idiom #68 - Knew

Introduction.
The next couple of posts won't be idioms. But I'll post them in this thread anyway because idioms are often literally understood. That gives a wrong or at best an incomplete understanding.
Many English/western verbs are about a mental activity. Things that only happen in your head. Thinking for example. Hebrew was a language with a very limited number of words, so most of them had various meanings. Not only that many verbs had both a mental and physical meaning. Knowing this may deepen the understanding of a verse because while it's not translated wrong it's only translated half.

I once read the following example to explain the difference between our view and the Hebrew view on things. Compare a cow, horse and swallow. In our mind the cow and horse are the most similar because both are big, heavy and have four legs. (looks) In the Hebrew mind the horse and swallow are most similar because both are fat and agile. (action)

I'll start with the most well known....

Gen 4:1 (AKJV)
GenAKJV
Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bore Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

Know can have the meaning of knowledge. Like knowing the names of all the books in the Bible. But as so often in Hebrew it does also have physical meaning. In the verse above it means sex. It can also mean caring about someone. Or having a relationship with someone.


Hos 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

It's a good thing to know God exists. It's also good to know all sort of facts about God. And that's exactly what knowledge means. But that's only half of it. It's the 'mental meaning'. The ancient Jews took it one step further. They added a physical meaning. Not just thoughts but also an action. So they read the verse as not just knowing stuff about God but having a real relationship with Him.

Isa 11:2  And the spirit of the LORD shall rest on him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

Many Jews (and their English translations) replace 'wisdom' with 'devotion'. Both are correct. Wisdom is a good translation because wisdom is knowledge and that's the 'mental meaning' of the word. But they pick devotion because it's acting on that knowledge. I think that makes it a better translation because imo the higher goal isn't just to know stuff about/from God but actually implement it in your life.

:2c:

[WhiteWings]

Idiom #69 - Listen
(First read the introduction of Idiom #68)

This one is easy because it's commonly used in English.
Mother: "Did you listen when I said your room has to be tidy?!"
The mother didn't just ask if the kid heard her speak a while ago. Listen refers to a command to clean the bedroom. Likewise in Hebrew.
Listen means: hearing, being obedient, doing what's asked/commanded.

Matt 11:15 He that has ears to hear, let him hear.
That verse means 'Do what I tell you". Obey. Act.
When you read a verse with the word read replace that word with obey and see how often that's logical.

[marie glen]

http://www.modestapparelchristianclothinglydiaofpurpledressescustomsewing.com/new_testament_written_in_Hebrew.htm
http://www.adventistonline.com/forum/topics/new-testament-was-orginally?commentId=1451550%3AComment%3A1344965&xg_source=activity
http://www.remnantofyhwh.com/Hebrew%20The%20Purel%20Language.htm

Etc.
Personally I would find it logical. Hebrew also has much more depth to hide little gems.

I didn't follow the links..  :smile: but i think this is a great topic, and I agree very logical, and yes, adds such depth to God's Word! I wonder what do you think about Paul's letters when written to a Gentile church? Hellenistic and Greek.. Do you think those were likely written in Greek or in Hebrew?

I wonder if there were Hebrew and Greek gospels circulating after a while? (shortly after the first gospels were written very likely in Hebrew).. Luke was a Gentile I guess so I wonder about his gospel?

Maybe this is covered in this thread already! :faint:

[marie glen]

Idiom #57 - Listen
(First read the introduction of Idiom #56)

This one is easy because it's commonly used in English.
Mother: "Did you listen when I said your room has to be tidy?!"
The mother didn't just ask if the kid heard her speak a while ago. Listen refers to a command to clean the bedroom. Likewise in Hebrew.
Listen means: hearing, being obedient, doing what's asked/commanded.

Matt 11:15 He that has ears to hear, let him hear.
That verse means 'Do what I tell you". Obey. Act.
When you read a verse with the word read replace that word with obey and see how often that's logical.

    :smile: :thumbsup: That's awesome!!

   to truly hear is to obey..!

.."treasure old and new.."

His Word is so enriching!

[WhiteWings]

Idiom #70 - Fear
(First read the introduction of Idiom #68)

Prov 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
Isa 11:3 And his delight shall be in the fear of Jehovah; and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither decide after the hearing of his ears;

The Hebrew word translated fear means fear but also awe, reverence. So it's not (just) being scared of God but also something more positive a feeling of deep respect. In Job 28:28 it leads to wisdom. In Job 4:6 it's the source of confidence.

[marie glen]

Many English/western verbs are about a mental activity. Things that only happen in your head. Thinking for example. Hebrew was a language with a very limited number of words, so most of them had various meanings. Not only that many verbs had both a mental and physical meaning. Knowing this may deepen the understanding of a verse because while it's not translated wrong it's only translated half.

...actually implement it in your life.

I heard of this before.. how the Hebrew goes further and places an active verb with...

[marie glen]

Idiom#58 - Caught up

2 Cor 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows.


"Caught up" can have a literal meaning but its idiomatic meaning is "have  a vision".

..that makes more sense..  :2c:

[gregoryfl]

Idiom #58 - Fear
(First read the introduction of Idiom #56)

Prov 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
Isa 11:3 And his delight shall be in the fear of Jehovah; and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither decide after the hearing of his ears;

The Hebrew word translated fear means fear but also awe, reverence. So it's not (just) being scared of God but also something more positive a feeling of deep respect. In Job 28:28 it leads to wisdom. In Job 4:6 it's the source of confidence.

Thank you for bringing us these treasure nuggets bro.

Interestingly, in my research, the marriage root for fear is related to the word 'to sense' [primarily through the sense of sight]; hence commonly translated as 'to see' or 'to appear'. To fear, in the Semitic mind, is to actively sense the one feared, to be utterly aware of the one feared. Negatively, it is being consumed with the sensation of someone feared. With regard to God however, it is the sensation similar to standing on an overlook...that kind of fear, or, as you said Tony, awe. To walk in His fear is to walk in such a way that we are utterly aware of Him at all times, perceiving, or seeing him in everything.

Ronen

[marie glen]

Idiom #55 - Sounding the trumpet


There were 13 collection boxes for alms in the women's court.
Wide at the bottom narrow at the top. Trumpet shaped.
When a coin was dropped in  the box it made a quite distinct sound.
Boasting Pharisees would throw a large number, of usually low value coins in the boxes to make it known they are great for charity.

aha! pharisees/false.. "sounding the trumpet before theirself.."

[marie glen]

Idiom #53 - Frog

Frog=tsephardea=idiom for temptation

thanks! that's one I've wondered about! :smile:

[marie glen]

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 12, 2012, 11:58:56 PM

There are of course several quotes by the Church fathers claiming a Hebrew Matthew. (only once I saw a church father claiming an other Hebrew book) Of course the only 100% certain thing is that you personally have watched an Apostle pen down the words in Hebrew.
But imo the most important question isn't if Matthew wrote in Hebrew, Greek, English, Spanish or German. In all those languages it's possible to write 100% error free texts
It the grammar rules used and the idioms that really matter. Should a translator translate the manuscripts with Hebrew, Armiac, Classical Greek or Koine Greek rules.
Koine Greek can be translated to Hebrew without reordering words. In most cases that results in a grammatically correct Hebrew verse. So even if Matthew, or any other Apostle, beyond a doubt wrote Greek it seems to me they did so with a 100% Hebrew line of thoughts.
Also let not forget the Bible itself claims Hebrew in several verses. It only claims Greek and Latin once. (the sign Pilate ordered nailed above Jesus' head) But even then Hebrew is claimed also.



It seems logical to me the Hebrew (a dialect of Aramaic) or the Aramaic of Assyria (as conquering) was used originally for any account or letter written to Hebrews..

Some of these idioms of course are self explanatory (like eyes of the heart).. and some of course could also take into account content around the usage.. coming under, I believe, rightly dividing.. and the Word explaining the Word..

These idioms and thread was a veRy interesting read!  :smile: :thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

Idiom #71 - Law and instruction
(First read the introduction of Idiom #68)

The Jewish word Torah (usually referencing the 5 books by Moses) is usually translated as 'law'.
That translation isn't wrong strictly speaking because even God's suggestions carry great weight. But 'law' misses some depth.
Torah comes from the root word yarah which means teaching, point out, instruct, give direction etc.
Jewish English Bibles (OT) often use 'instruction' instead of 'law'.

You may say that law also gives direction. That certainly true but (for me) law has a bit of 'dictator feeling' while instructing is what a Father does.
For me it's the difference between enforcing rules just because He's the big boss vs giving rules for the best of mankind.

[WhiteWings]

Idiom #72 - Peace
(First read the introduction of Idiom #68)

John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give to you: not as the world gives, give I to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

Peace isn't just the absence of war but also prosperity, wholeness, completeness, good health, feeling well.
Once again while the normal translation isn't wrong it misses depth that may add to the understanding or 'atmosphere' of the passage the words is found in.


Matt 5:23-24
23 If then you are making an offering at the altar and there it comes to your mind that your brother has something against you,
24 While your offering is still before the altar, first go and make peace with your brother, then come and make your offering.

The above verses are sideways related to this post. Likely the verses are about the peace offering. God doesn't want a peace offering unless the bringer of the gift made peace with others first.
The peace offering was partly for God and partly eaten by the person and his family. The Last Supper my have had that symbolic meaning too.

[WhiteWings]

Idiom #73 - Remember
(First read the introduction of Idiom #68)

This is another clear one that shows mental and physical meaning of the word.

Isa 43:25 I, even I, am he that blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and will not remember your sins.

The almighty God forgetting something.....?
Remember has meaning we all know but it also has the meaning of actions relating to that memory.

That verse doesn't mean God will forget the sin but He will not take the actions that the sin requires. For example because Jesus paid off that sin on the cross.
So God 'forgets' to take action.

[WhiteWings]

Idiom #74 - Faith
(First read the introduction of Idiom #56)

This word is related to the faith and works thread Click

Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Exod 17:12 But Moses hands were heavy; and they took a stone, and put it under him, and he sat thereon; and Aaron and Hur stayed up his hands, the one on the one side, and the other on the other side; and his hands were steady until the going down of the sun.

Deut 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD your God, he is God, the faithful God, which keeps covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

The 3 bold words above all are translated from the same Hebrew word. -> Believe, faithful and steady. Especially steady show the word also has the meaning of works (lifting hands in this case)

The verses below show faith and works go hand in hand. Demons also believe in God, but that's not good enough.
Jas 2:17-21
17 Even so faith, if it has not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yes, a man may say, You have faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
19 You believe that there is one God; you do well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son on the altar?

[marie glen]

I think changes in the heart and life are also works..

[Shev]

http://www.modestapparelchristianclothinglydiaofpurpledressescustomsewing.com/new_testament_written_in_Hebrew.htm
http://www.adventistonline.com/forum/topics/new-testament-was-orginally?commentId=1451550%3AComment%3A1344965&xg_source=activity
http://www.remnantofyhwh.com/Hebrew%20The%20Purel%20Language.htm

Etc.
Personally I would find it logical. Hebrew also has much more depth to hide little gems.

I didn't follow the links..  :smile: but i think this is a great topic, and I agree very logical, and yes, adds such depth to God's Word! I wonder what do you think about Paul's letters when written to a Gentile church? Hellenistic and Greek.. Do you think those were likely written in Greek or in Hebrew?

I wonder if there were Hebrew and Greek gospels circulating after a while? (shortly after the first gospels were written very likely in Hebrew).. Luke was a Gentile I guess so I wonder about his gospel?

Maybe this is covered in this thread already! :faint:

Paul's letters would very likely have been written in Greek, as he was writing to churches all over the world of Jew and Gentiles, and Greek was the common tongue. It would have made no sense to write an epistle to the believers in Corinth in Hebrew, for example.

That all being said, WW is certainly right in saying that most of the writers were Hebrew (and most of the scenes with Jesus were with Hebrew or Aramaic as the spoken language), so a Hebrew mindset is being expressed into Greek. The only writer who almost certainly has Greek as his mother tongue would appear to be Luke, who in Luke and Acts is regarded as writing in a very skilled manner.

I think it is the sort of question everyone is going to see from their own perspective, but there are interesting things to consider from the Greek side. For instance, the alliteration in Romans 1:31:

ἀσυνέτους ἀσυνθέτους ἀστόργους (asunetous, asunthetous, astorgous)

This comes in the midst of a long list of fleshly character traits. If Romans had been written in Hebrew, it would have been the most tremendous coincidence for these words to match so closely. Nor is this by any means the only place where this kind of word play occurs.

The issue of original composition is not an open and shut case, but I for one really enjoy what those with deep knowledge of Hebrew like WW and Gregory bring to the table. If anyone is interested in links that are in favor of Greek being the original language, let me know.

My own personal belief is that the language of God, rather than being any particular human language, is Spirit, and where this Spirit inspires, that language becomes spiritual, whether it be Hebrew, Greek, English or Tagalog. That being said, I also believe God created the languages for specific purposes, and the reason I believe that God created Greek for the gospel going forth, is that it offers a lot of precision that is very important when matters of doctrine arise. However, again referring to something WW said, I don't think you can divorce the Greek of the NT from the Hebrew minds behind it.