What are your thoughts on it?
I'll start:
Was it global or local? The hebrew word for "earth" (erets) can also mean land or country. The word "tebel" is used to describe the Earth as a whole creation, and that word is never used in relation to the flood, instead erets is used. On the other hand it is said that all flesh became corrupted, but that could also be taken figuratively since Noah and his family were flesh too but they were not corrupted.
There are also other versions of the Flood in more Mesopotamian cultures, so I'd rather believe it simply took place in that area.
And now, the most important part: What was this punishment for? It was for making contact with the Watchers (Shemyaza, Azazel and the like) who taught the humans things they weren't ready to learn and had children with women that became known as the Nephilim. Also, it makes much more sense for God to punish the humans who had contact with the Watchers (the Watchers themselves were only 200 ) and not the entire Earth.
Note: the above is based on the Book of Enoch, not considered canon except by the Ethiopian church, but quoted in the New Testament.
And of course we can now associate Jesus Christ with the Ark, but He did not save just a few but saved All. That's my kind of ark :laughing7:
I believe the flood to be local and science proves it. :dsunny:
Now that I have read the Book of Enoch, the Flood is so much clearer. :thumbsup:
I read some years ago that the Mediterranean Sea was once a fertile, inhabited valley until a sudden catastrophic flood occurred. According to science the region was below sea level until the Atlantic Ocean finally broke though a barrier and flowed into the valley (kinda like New Orleans after Katrina) and forever flooded it. Some theorize that that is where the story of the flood came from. I have studied the sciences and have a masters degree in physical geography. Trust me, a literal flood as described in Genesis is physically impossible. The story is either figurative, or there are some problems with the translation of that scriptural text - I don't care what these so-called "Christian scientists" say.
That's my opinion, and I'm stickin' with it! :laughing7:
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 04, 2013, 06:46:30 PM
I believe the flood to be local and science proves it. :dsunny:
How do you mean?
I believe the flood to be global and while science cannot "prove" anything non-repeatable and wasn't observed
by any living person but God, Science has abundant evidence for a worldwide flood.
_ Not to mention the Bible says this is what actually happened God's eyewitness account)
Quote from: jbertonbounds on June 04, 2013, 07:36:35 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 04, 2013, 06:46:30 PM
I believe the flood to be local and science proves it. :dsunny:
How do you mean?
Just look up the dates of the crators just in the U.S.
I am pretty sure the Flood can be looked at figuratively and there is no harm done. But seeing as how there are more accounts of a flood ordered by God or the gods, I like to think it was a literal event.
Hello Eduard,
The many questions about the "flood" are addressed here, based on the Bible and science:
http://www.googlesyndicatedsearch.com/u/ASK?sitesearch=askelm.com&q=noah%27s+flood&sa=Google+Search (http://www.googlesyndicatedsearch.com/u/ASK?sitesearch=askelm.com&q=noah%27s+flood&sa=Google+Search)
I hope that helps.
Ken
Thanks Ken. I have my own opinion on the Flood, but I wanted to see what others think as well.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: ded2daworld on June 04, 2013, 07:43:25 PM
I believe the flood to be global and while science cannot "prove" anything non-repeatable and wasn't observed
by any living person but God, Science has abundant evidence for a worldwide flood.
_ Not to mention the Bible says this is what actually happened God's eyewitness account)
I'm with you on this bro. Science cannot explain God's supernatural way of doing things. Science cannot conceive the parting of the Red Sea either but do we think it didn't happen? Explain then all of the chariots that Michael Rood filmed with an underwater camera in the area of the Red Sea that would be the most likely place for the Israelites to cross. There are even ancient pillars to mark the spot on the shoreline where they crossed which also fits with other crossings like the Jordan.
DuWayne
Having done a lot of reading on the Flood and related matters, here's my take:
We have the Earth, a planet which always had water, but sometime in the mythical (I say mythical due to all the worldwide Flood myths.) past, it got a lot more. How did the waters cover the land? First, we know very little about the pre-flood makeup of the Earth, but it is an easy guess that, though there were mountains, the Earth's surface (above and below water) was more even. Further, the Earth was smaller: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJfBSc6e7QQ - there is just no getting around it, for all the continents fit together with almost no error, on a smaller planet. This neatly explains where all the water went after the flood. No, I don't have a mechanism for the expansion of our planet, but the geographical evidence proves it must be so.
So, the waters of the Flood receded into the new ocean basins, but where did those waters come from? There are lots of theories about vapor canopies, ice canopies, water canopies, and even metallic hydrogen canopies which burned. None are proved or provable. My idea is different. There is a source of water close to the Earth, which we call Mars. Yes, Mars, a planet which once had lots of water, but now has very little. We know now that Mars once had oceans, and that there are huge "outflow channels" which carried that water - where? Following Velikovsky and the folks pushing the new paradigm of the Electric Universe (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7EAlTcZFwY), I speculate that Mars may have come so close to the Earth, that its gravity pulled off the Martian surface water, while other forces (inertia, gravity, electromotive forces) kept the two planets apart, and in time, restored them to stable orbits.
Keep in mind that what I wrote above is, in the end, speculation (at least in part), but it is based on a lot of reading of various books, magazine articles, www articles, videos, and dot-connecting. I may be entirely wrong, but I offer my understanding of how it may have happened. Remember that the Genesis account is "painted with a broad brush," and a lot of detail is left out.
more new evidence of flood?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/archaeology/10022628/Lost-city-of-Heracleion-gives-up-its-secrets.html
Quote from: musicman on June 05, 2013, 07:23:25 PM
more new evidence of flood?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/archaeology/10022628/Lost-city-of-Heracleion-gives-up-its-secrets.html
this city sank around 800 a.d. the flood is purported to be 4000 years ago
For the math inclined... why the flood could have been local:
Quantitative Hydrology of Noah's Flood
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2006/PSCF6-06Hill2.pdf
In this thread I read God can do miracles. True. But from that pov we can't discuss anything. I just as well can state it was a local flood because God caused a miracle to stop the water flowing away when it went above the highest hill.
I have other arguments.
19 And the water has the mastery exceeding exceedingly on the earth. And covered are all the lofty mountains which are under the entire heavens.
20 Fifteen cubits above has the water the mastery, and covered are all the mountains.
What does verse 20 mean. It covered all mountains on earth by at least 15 cubits/20 feet?
First of all earth in the flood story is translated from eretz with can mean the whole planet. But I really doubt they thought that way. But I don't have proof of that. What i do have proof is that the whole land of Egtypt was hit by plagues.
Land is translated from the very same word eretz.
The Ark stranded on a mountain top. Noah waited a bit sent a dove brining an olive branch.
Olive trees don't grow near mountain tops. The whole planet was destroyed by the flood so how did that tree grow so fast.
A miracle? Could be.
It also could verse 20 is understood wrong.
Instead of: "The water rose 20 feet above the mountains" it reads "The water rose 20 feet and covered mountains".
Meaning the highest mountain was less than 20 feet. Mountain in Hebrew isn't just the Mt Everest type. It's basicly every bump in the ground. The Temple mount is mountain too. But not Mount Everest hight.
This view also solves the problem of having room for all types of animals and food.
I admit a weak point, but still a hint, the Bible only focusses on Jews and when needed on nations that interact with them. So the world view of the Bible is quite narrow.
It sure doesn't explain why in the world God would have Noah spend a year building an ark to hold all the animals and his family when he could have much more easily had them walk away from a local flood. The animals? God brought them to Noah, he certainly could have them walk away as well. Peter says the world was destroyed at the time of the flood and only 8 survived - sure doesn't sound like a local flood. :Peace2:
2Pe 3:6 through which the then world...that is more specific....than "the world."
I don't see that as any proof of a global flood. There is to much scientific proof that there was no global flood, earth's layers, dated crater impacts. I am not a science person but I believe the flood was local and more important, is what the story tells us and the flood being global or local is insignificant. imo.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 15, 2013, 10:47:21 PM
2Pe 3:6 through which the then world...that is more specific....than "the world."
I don't see that as any proof of a global flood. There is to much scientific proof that there was no global flood, earth's layers, dated crater impacts. I am not a science person but I believe the flood was local and more important, is what the story tells us and the flood being global or local is insignificant. imo.
Maybe it's a figurative story (kinda like a parable) designed to teach us something about God. And only those who seek really get it. Perhaps. :Chinscratch:
Be ewarned this might offend but it is said with Love. :HeartThrob:
Does it matter of the flood was literal or not? Does it matter if it flooded the whole world and an untold number of people and animals of all kinds downed? Does it matter?
Well of course it matters. If it is literal and global then Farther messed up big time. He broke every rule concerning love. He was not loving, patient or long suffering,. He was not compassionate nor was He forgiving. What's more He was cruel and heartless. Oh and he was so sorry that he promised to never to do it again.
Fallacy, nothing more and nothing less. As if Father could ever feel sorry. How can pure love murder? How can pure patience ever give up? How could the most divine wisdom be so unwise?
How can a perfect Father drown 99.9% of his children?
Simple, He can't. :HeartThrob:
It's a metaphor for things to come. Yes, most of the people we know will be destroy. They will suffer loss but be saved. I feel a great majority likely myself included will lose a whole lot. And that part of the populous will be lost to the lake though this time one of fire.
Likely there was a catastrophic flood st one time and Father used this story to invoke fesr. The spiritual development was not where it is today. We should be looking at this through spirit instead of through our minds.
Father is PERFECT LOVE. :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Love Julie
Quote from: jbertonbounds on August 15, 2013, 11:55:53 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 15, 2013, 10:47:21 PM
2Pe 3:6 through which the then world...that is more specific....than "the world."
I don't see that as any proof of a global flood. There is to much scientific proof that there was no global flood, earth's layers, dated crater impacts. I am not a science person but I believe the flood was local and more important, is what the story tells us and the flood being global or local is insignificant. imo.
Maybe it's a figurative story (kinda like a parable) designed to teach us something about God. And only those who seek really get it. Perhaps. :Chinscratch:
:iagree: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: jbertonbounds on August 15, 2013, 11:55:53 PM
Maybe it's a figurative story (kinda like a parable) designed to teach us something about God. And only those who seek really get it. Perhaps. :Chinscratch:
Maybe. But I find it a slippery slope.
Creation was a parable because it's evolution.
Abraham never lived. It's just folklore with a message.
King David is a fable. He's just a name in a great Biblical teaching.
Jesus wasn't crucified. Crucifixion is a term for something else.
I mean where does end? Why is it good/ok to call creation an parable and rejecting crucifixion is blasphemy.
I don't believe I called it a parable.
"Creation was a parable because it's evolution"........No. But evolving is something that is, has, and does happen.
Abraham never lived. It's just folklore with a message." Not so, he lived and his life has value with learning value.
King David is a fable. He's just a name in a great Biblical teaching." Not so, David was real, but there is more that just the history story.
Jesus wasn't crucified. Crucifixion is a term for something else."
Jesus was crucified, hung on a tree; some things one can't dispute, should one believe in the Word of God.
I am more inline with Julie's thoughts.. and reason.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 16, 2013, 04:05:01 AM
Quote from: jbertonbounds on August 15, 2013, 11:55:53 PM
Maybe it's a figurative story (kinda like a parable) designed to teach us something about God. And only those who seek really get it. Perhaps. :Chinscratch:
Maybe. But I find it a slippery slope.
Creation was a parable because it's evolution.
Abraham never lived. It's just folklore with a message.
King David is a fable. He's just a name in a great Biblical teaching.
Jesus wasn't crucified. Crucifixion is a term for something else.
I mean where does end? Why is it good/ok to call creation an parable and rejecting crucifixion is blasphemy.
WhiteWings now it is you that are using fallacies :HeartThrob: Just because "one" story is deemed a parable, does NOT mean in any shape or form that ALL stories must therefore be parables.
But just give a moments thought on how Noah kept the Polar bears alive. Do you have any idea how much food two elephants could consume in 40+ days. What about the kolar bears of Australia and the fresh Eucalyptus leaves they need to live. Same with the Panda's and the bamboo shoots. I hate to even bring up Grizzly bears, Lions and every other large carnivorous animal, what did Noah feed them on. Either additional animals were brought along to feed them or I guess we have a lot of animal species that didn't make it. Attrition.
Yes, it is easy to say that if it is in the Bible then it must be so. But is the literalness of the story evermore important than the spiritual message? :HeartThrob:
I believe never.
I truly hope I have not burned a bridge here, it was not my intention, honestly. :friendstu:
Father certainly doesn't need me defending him, but isn't LOVE a better option than a monster?
Love Julie :girlheart:
Julie, I love you, most certainly in the biblical sense, but to adjust the horns(so to speak) questioning WW is, well, if you are ready, a great learning process. The brother is adequate and has great depth in his studies, one swath of his learning could possibly set you back ages. I only say this because I feel your journey is new, and I mean no offence. :HeartThrob:
Any serious student of the Great Flood should watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ml15qU_mZIo
Even if you do not accept the premise, you need to be aware of what is really happening.
Quote from: JulieTang84 on August 16, 2013, 05:41:03 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 16, 2013, 04:05:01 AM
Quote from: jbertonbounds on August 15, 2013, 11:55:53 PM
Maybe it's a figurative story (kinda like a parable) designed to teach us something about God. And only those who seek really get it. Perhaps. :Chinscratch:
Maybe. But I find it a slippery slope.
Creation was a parable because it's evolution.
Abraham never lived. It's just folklore with a message.
King David is a fable. He's just a name in a great Biblical teaching.
Jesus wasn't crucified. Crucifixion is a term for something else.
I mean where does end? Why is it good/ok to call creation an parable and rejecting crucifixion is blasphemy.
WhiteWings now it is you that are using fallacies :HeartThrob: Just because "one" story is deemed a parable, does NOT mean in any shape or form that ALL stories must therefore be parables.
I think you misunderstood what I wrote. I'll try again. IfGod decided to mak ethe whole Bible literal but the creation part a parable then it's so.
The danger lays in letting man select what's a parable and not.
UR: Burning the chaff parable is about purifying the sinner that's in the process of being saved.
ET: It's total and utter proof of hell.
ED: See the chaff no longer exists.
In no way I denying the Bible contain God inspired parables and hidden stuff. All I'm saying if it' hard to understand, it doesn't prove it isn't literal. Science says the earth is 4+ billion years old. Christian: I can't explain away the creation account so it must be a parable. I hope that explains my fallacy :gimmefive:
QuoteBut just give a moments thought on how Noah kept the Polar bears alive. Do you have any idea how much food two elephants could consume in 40+ days. What about the kolar bears of Australia and the fresh Eucalyptus leaves they need to live. Same with the Panda's and the bamboo shoots. I hate to even bring up Grizzly bears, Lions and every other large carnivorous animal, what did Noah feed them on. Either additional animals were brought along to feed them or I guess we have a lot of animal species that didn't make it. Attrition.
I've read many arguments about it. I'm a local flood supporter but I've actually bought books my global flood people. I'm an old earth supporter and bought YEC books. Even watched hours of Kent Hovind.
Hovind claims all animals is one of each family. So only 1 type of dog. Say 2 poodles. The other dogs we see today evolved through micro-evolution. To clarify Kent is very strong opposing macro-evolution (Darwin) So am I. He also believes lions
also ate grass. I personally know dogs do. But I also doubt a dog survives on 3 blades of grass a month. (thats how many my dog ate)
Personally think local and all animals were animals living in Noahs valley. Imo local flood has good support even some scientific while global is very impossible with current scientific understanding.
For me the thing that's most against local flood is: Why didn't Noach just pack his bags and move to higher ground. I think it's just is how God works. Why did the Jews have to wage all those wars. I'm sure God is very capable of handling 20 billion enemies every split second. God is against sin/evil. Yet He decided to wait crushing it until the revelation. I'm sure it's not because He's gathering courage to fight satan. So somehow God saw something good in building an ark instead of moving to higher ground.
QuoteYes, it is easy to say that if it is in the Bible then it must be so. But is the literalness of the story evermore important than the spiritual message? :HeartThrob:
What's most important for you about your house? I bet you mention all sorts of things but not the foundation.
The roofs and walls as the goal of your house. --> Spiritual
But the house is built on the foundation ---> Literal
So the answer is: Spiritual is most important but it can't understood without literal and/or literal is a safeguard against injecting fantasy spiritual doctrines.
QuoteI truly hope I have not burned a bridge here, it was not my intention, honestly. :friendstu:
You only opened a can of worms. I have lots of them so feel free to take a few. I'll always defend my views. I'll explain them a 1000 tims if needed. Only when I'm talked down to I either ignore or start sharpening my swords
:gimmefive:
Whitewings said:
QuoteYou only opened a can of worms. I have lots of them. I'll always defend my views. I'll explain them a 1000 tims if needed. Only when I'm talked down to I either ignore or start sharpening my swords
:gimmefive:
Oh my goodness, the thread said it had been read 666 times when I clicked to reply :eek:
Ok, as for the can of worms, plant them in the earth where they can do the most good. :HeartThrob:
You raise some very interesting points. Yes, the Earth is billions of years old, regardless of what some say. Was it created in 6 Earth days? Hardly, the Sun wasn't even in existence when the first day was completed, actually the Sun and the Moon was created on the 4th day. Do we not use the Sun and Moon today to measure time and the spance of time? Yep, we sure do, but Father certainly has no need and didn't.
One can chose to believe what one wants, as feverantly as possible, yet the truth never changes. I certainly do not deny that there was a great flood. Neither do I deny that Moses was given what to write. Yet, you me and any other can spend a lifetime debating, disecting and analyzing every thread of evidence in order to prove or disprove anothers belief. What will it acheive? Nothing. :HeartThrob:
Here is the problem with determining a Literal event from a Parable. Unless we are privy to the ABSOLUTE truth, we can only assume. Certainly not a a solid foundation for anything. Note: I am talking about Father purposely drowning His children. Not whether he created a flood or Not. Was Father responsible for Katrina? Well of course, but did He SPECIFICALLY set out to course MASSIVE destruction, or did HE simply allow natural events to unfold. I believe so, I really do. I can defend my stance and argue my point, but that is only ever what it will be, a point of contention to some other who has been given another point of view. :HeartThrob:
So the Flood story, I have heard just about every conceivable possibility, including Aliens coming to Earth and harvesting every single DNA strand from EVERY animal and shipping them off to another galaxy. Possible? Yes. Likely just a possible as a global flood which, as you and I do not believe took place.
How many times have we been told to NOT lean on our understanding? A lot and this is what I have been given from this. Yes, the possibilities are endless. Father can do what He wants, when He Wants and How he wants, but does that mean he does?
Father Changes NOT. Jesus introduced the Spirit, prior to that, Fathers children has to learn by their senses. There was no Google, public library or daily news. News travelled by word of mouth, very few could read or for that matter, had anything to read. So, hearing, seeing, touching and physically experiencing were paramount to their understanding. In many ways, back then people were as gullible as an inexperienced child. Who knows the effect the words of Moses and all of the great prophets had on the people. I imagine they were captivated and the words touched their core being.
Did Moses actually surive in a hot searing desert with hundreds of thousands if not a couple of million people for 40 years with only mana and very little water? I will not go there; the words are clear, the logistics not so much.
Yet, this story is still a metaphor for the completion of the big picture. The Flood as I said in a previous post (imo) is Father telling us that he will destroy the sinful nature of everyone, saving only what is righteous nature. No one will be lost. Moses desert story, is very much like the wasteland that many experience all to frequently when the Spirit begins to lead them home. Have not we all experienced this, by being dragged from out comfort zone into areas unknown. I know that I have :HeartThrob:
If you have not gathered, I am less concerned with the "word's" of each story as I am with how their message fits the great jigsaw puzzle of truth.
My truth, is that Father is Love and Love is Father. Jesus Christ is my brother and a brother to all and we ARE to Love, Trust, Honor, etc Father in every moment just as HE does. Oh and be a loving brother and sister to EVERYONE else and become as a child. :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
This is enough for me. It really is. I believe the possibilities are endless. I believe all the knowledge that has ever been born of human minds would fit on a pin head when compared to Father. To see true wisdom just study a single cell. Father is so beyond, beyond, but closer than close.
Well time for Julie to step off of her little podium :girlheart:
Love to you, Julie
I'm a former science teacher. Science backs up a very young earth, (less than ten thousand years old) Evolution is scientifically impossible (and to my shame I once taught it so don't tell me I don't understand it) All evidence indicates a global flood from the stratification of the rocks being laid down rapidly to the lack of erosion and pitting from meteors between the layers to polystrate fossils which also prove rapid deposition. There are also billions of marine fossils found all over the world(as would be expected from a global flood) including the very tops of the highest mountains. Another thing is the 15 seconds it takes to make a radiohalo which is found in solid granite rock and granite cannot have come from a molten earth since when granite is melted and cooled a different type of rock called chrysolite is formed. Always. That's science. I could write a book - which I am currently doing called "Science and Logic against Evolution".
Not to mention there are miracles the blind seeing, the jews crossing and the egyptians drowning at the red sea, the 40 years of the jews clothes not wearing out in the desert, resurection, walking on water, etc.
Scientists for the most part are atheists so they must speculate on how things could have happened without God, which means other than the way it actually did. There are many scientists that DO believe. You can find some at AnswersinGenesis.org and scienceagainstevolution.org :Peace2:
Quote from: JulieTang84 on August 16, 2013, 03:18:46 PM
Did Moses actually surive in a hot searing desert with hundreds of thousands if not a couple of million people for 40 years with only mana and very little water? I will not go there; the words are clear, the logistics not so much.
It's not that Moses' walked 40 years without stopping. His portable Temple was massive. It's impossible to walk all day and then at night set up the tent and break it up in the morning. Or even only on Sabbath day. I looks quite a job to me to get it all ready.
Water, food and heat were no/a minor problem because God was helping them.
Pillar of fire provided light; cloud provided shelter and water (Isa 4:4-6); manna provided food, their cloths and shoes did not wear out; (Deut 8:4)
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 16, 2013, 04:25:47 PM
Quote from: JulieTang84 on August 16, 2013, 03:18:46 PM
Did Moses actually surive in a hot searing desert with hundreds of thousands if not a couple of million people for 40 years with only mana and very little water? I will not go there; the words are clear, the logistics not so much.
It's not that Moses' walked 40 years without stopping. His portable Temple was massive. It's impossible to walk all day and then at night set up the tent and break it up in the morning. Or even only on Sabbath day. I looks quite a job to me to get it all ready.
Water, food and heat were no/a minor problem because God was helping them.
Pillar of fire provided light; cloud provided shelter and water (Isa 4:4-6); manna provided food, their cloths and shoes did not wear out; (Deut 8:4)
Not going there...... :HeartThrob:
A man stands before an audience. "I only know one magic trick... I will take this worm I have here on the end this pencil and turn it into a fully functional man." The audience is amazed. The man holds the pencil out with the worm on it and waits and waits. The audience grows restless after a few minutes. "Please be patient with me"the man asks, "this is the only trick I know and it takes 1 Billion years."
Quote from: JulieTang84 on August 16, 2013, 03:18:46 PM
If you have not gathered, I am less concerned with the "word's" of each story as I am with how their message fits the great jigsaw puzzle of truth.
I gathered that. I'm sure you have gathered I try to avoid such dangerous paths as the plague.
:2c:
Quote from: ded2daworld on August 16, 2013, 04:14:19 PM
I'm a former science teacher. Science backs up a very young earth, (less than ten thousand years old) Evolution is scientifically impossible (and to my shame I once taught it so don't tell me I don't understand it) All evidence indicates a global flood from the stratification of the rocks being laid down rapidly to the lack of erosion and pitting from meteors between the layers to polystrate fossils which also prove rapid deposition. There are also billions of marine fossils found all over the world(as would be expected from a global flood) including the very tops of the highest mountains. Another thing is the 15 seconds it takes to make a radiohalo which is found in solid granite rock and granite cannot have come from a molten earth since when granite is melted and cooled a different type of rock called chrysolite is formed. Always. That's science. I could write a book - which I am currently doing called "Science and Logic against Evolution".
Not to mention there are miracles the blind seeing, the jews crossing and the egyptians drowning at the red sea, the 40 years of the jews clothes not wearing out in the desert, resurection, walking on water, etc.
Scientists for the most part are atheists so they must speculate on how things could have happened without God, which means other than the way it actually did. There are many scientists that DO believe. You can find some at AnswersinGenesis.org and scienceagainstevolution.org :Peace2:
D2 I love science and I am sure that you are ever so much more knowledgable than I :HeartThrob:
All what you say is very true, I do know that some agree that the earth is very young though others say the is something like 4.6 billion yrs old. I do know that Father is timeless and was never not. Our time is all relative to something we cannot understand.
Yet what you say about fossil records being found in the most unlikely places is so true. Also peoples traditions speaking of a huge flood are found world wide. That some huge flood type event occurred in the past is most undeniable.
Yet did Father course this to wipe away EVERY Human but a small handful. Was Noah able to collect EVERY animal from around the world?
Evolution is an interesting topic. It is undeniable, all life evolves through breeding and genetic manipulation, but evolution is not the cause, but rather the effect. Many fail to see the distinction in this.
As for the crossing of the Dead Sea. We are told that there were over 600,000 fighting me, which could be a total of around 2,500,000 women, children and older aged people. If several people abreast crossed per second, meaning every second several people reached the other side; it would take about 29 days for the last person to reach the other side.
Yes, Father can and does do miracoulous things. Did he slow down time enough that 29 days seemed like 29 minutes? He might have. Did he carry them across himself so that none were trampled in the rush? He would certainly be able. What of sanatarian constraints, disease and unhygenic conditions. No flushing toilets and ezy wipes back then.
Father can do anything, even move and support 2.5 million people for 40 years in a inhospital dessert. He can just as easily give Moses cause enough to write about it.
All we know is that the "story" was recorded for our instruction and edification. None of which are changed if the story was 100% accurate, 50% embilshed or 100% fanticful. The message never changes :HeartThrob:
Love Julie
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 16, 2013, 04:44:57 PM
Quote from: JulieTang84 on August 16, 2013, 03:18:46 PM
If you have not gathered, I am less concerned with the "word's" of each story as I am with how their message fits the great jigsaw puzzle of truth.
I gathered that. I'm sure you have gathered I try to avoid such dangerous paths as the plague.
:2c:
John 14:26
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Parables rarely reveal what is assumed.
Mat 13:10
The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"
Mat 13:11-14
He replied, "Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: " 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
Perhaps, I am the only one that has been given to look past the words. :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Love Julie
Julie, what makes you thyink that it wasn't love for the epople that made God take so many at once. per the flood
every thought was evil all the time..devouring one another.
the righteous man is taken away, and no-one ponders it in his heart..that in death they rest..and are spared of the wicked.
when everything is evil all the time..it is merciful for God to take them.
How do you not know that He in love was delivering from the evil one. People that are held too tightly of wickedness
get their clay vessels crushed...and He remakes them over.[rule with a rod of iron]
all men are appointed to die once[leave this weak vessel susceptible to evil corruption]
any vessel marred in His hand is made new.
when all is said and done...we will all agree....'even if the righteous one should strike me...it would even be a blessing"
nd we,too,shall find out when He delivers us from the wicked one..and the body undergoing this death
Quote from: sheila on August 16, 2013, 06:17:31 PM
Julie, what makes you thyink that it wasn't love for the epople that made God take so many at once. per the flood
every thought was evil all the time..devouring one another.
the righteous man is taken away, and no-one ponders it in his heart..that in death they rest..and are spared of the wicked.
when everything is evil all the time..it is merciful for God to take them.
How do you not know that He in love was delivering from the evil one. People that are held too tightly of wickedness
get their clay vessels crushed...and He remakes them over.[rule with a rod of iron]
all men are appointed to die once[leave this weak vessel susceptible to evil corruption]
any vessel marred in His hand is made new.
when all is said and done...we will all agree....'even if the righteous one should strike me...it would even be a blessing"
nd we,too,shall find out when He delivers us from the wicked one..and the body undergoing this death
Dear Sheila :HeartThrob:
All valid points, but to your question: What makes me think that it wasn't because of Love, Father destroyed so many in the flood.
Because Father is PERFECT :HeartThrob: And no LOVING father would ever drown his children.
1 Corinthians 13:4-8
New International Version (NIV)
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Father never changes and Jesus taught us always to fill our hearts with love. Anything that takes us away from LOVE is not of God. :HeartThrob:
His Holy Word should unite not divide - this is the loving approach we are meant to take. We are all brothers, sisters, united under one God.
I do not see LOVE in Eternal Damnation and nor do I see LOVE in the drowning of perhaps millions.
Sheila, I am NOT discounting the message, just it's literal understanding. The fact that this subject is dividing us, means without a doubt it is time to walk away.
God bless you sister :girlheart:
Love Julie
"All we know is that the "story" was recorded for our instruction and edification. None of which are changed if the story was 100% accurate, 50% embilshed or 100% fanticful. The message never changes."
So, can we take God at his word? Do you think He ever wonders how silly we are to take something literally just because he had his different, but in agreement, secretaries right it down?
Since God can do anything, and he wanted to teach us with pictures and scenarios and words, why wouldn't he cause things to happen as they were written rather than , essentially, not tell us the truth. Jesus (God in the flesh) never disagreed with any old testament story and alsways talked as if the word was 100% true. "In the beginning He made them male and female" "In six days God created the heavens and the earth" If there was death before the fall of Adam and Eve(before sin) what is the point of Christ coming to save us from eternal death?
If there was millions of years before Adam and Eve, there had to be death before they existed. This isn't so with a six day creation.
I think Jesus knows what he's talking about...certainly more than fallible, sinful, man with an atheistic agenda.
(I'm not knocking anyone's beliefs, I believed all the same baloney even when I was a Christian. I just believe and am sorry now, that I didn't take God at his word, didn't trust him to tell me the truth, didn't trust him to be right when learned scientists claim different. God is infinitely smarter than the wisest man that ever lived. :Peace2:
"Because Father is PERFECT And no LOVING father would ever drown his children."
God in love can certainly destroy others just as he did with the egyptians. It is to protect those that worship him in this life
and keep them from a destroying influence. God brought them life, he can and does take it away to serve his purpose. Like removing a cancer to keep the body alive, healthy, funvtioning.
Besides, the whole point of UR is that God will one day "even out" everything. :Peace2:
Quote from: sheila on August 16, 2013, 06:17:31 PM
Julie, what makes you thyink that it wasn't love for the epople that made God take so many at once. per the flood
I'm starting to wonder it were people. It's mentioned Nephlim lived before and after the flood. Seems a tiny hint. Joshua had a war campaign and it was all at places with Nephlim tribes.
Live in Hebrew is spelled in 3 ways. The 3rd way is life not created by God Himself. So Biblically seem perhaps not life at all.
If true the Nephlim would polute the whole bloodline of Jesus.
Well Nephlim or not many died.
Quote from: ded2daworld on August 16, 2013, 06:46:12 PM
"All we know is that the "story" was recorded for our instruction and edification. None of which are changed if the story was 100% accurate, 50% embilshed or 100% fanticful. The message never changes."
So, can we take God at his word? Do you think He ever wonders how silly we are to take something literally just because he had his different, but in agreement, secretaries right it down?
Since God can do anything, and he wanted to teach us with pictures and scenarios and words, why wouldn't he cause things to happen as they were written rather than , essentially, not tell us the truth. Jesus (God in the flesh) never disagreed with any old testament story and alsways talked as if the word was 100% true. "In the beginning He made them male and female" "In six days God created the heavens and the earth" If there was death before the fall of Adam and Eve(before sin) what is the point of Christ coming to save us from eternal death?
If there was millions of years before Adam and Eve, there had to be death before they existed. This isn't so with a six day creation.
I think Jesus knows what he's talking about...certainly more than fallible, sinful, man with an atheistic agenda.
(I'm not knocking anyone's beliefs, I believed all the same baloney even when I was a Christian. I just believe and am sorry now, that I didn't take God at his word, didn't trust him to tell me the truth, didn't trust him to be right when learned scientists claim different. God is infinitely smarter than the wisest man that ever lived. :Peace2:
Julie with :footmouth:
If nothing else, I am never afraid to say I messed up. I did this time for sure :dunno2:
Was the story of Noah's flood allegorical?While the Bible does contain many parables and metaphors, I see little evidence that the story of Noah's ark is intended as anything but a literal story.
Firstly, we have Noah who is listed in the genealogies of Genesis 5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+5&version=NIV), 1 Chronicles 1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Chronicles%201&version=NIV), andLuke 3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%203&version=NIV). Noah also had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth. So unless Noah's wife was impregnated by a particularly potent metaphor, we must accept that Noah was a literal person.
Second, if Noah was a real person, but the flood story was just an allegory, then someone was lying about what actually happened to Noah and his family.
Third, God Himself refers back to the flood in Isaiah:
"To me this is like the days of Noah, when I swore that the waters of Noah would never again cover the earth."
~ Isaiah 54:9 God seems to have forgotten that this was just a metaphor, and that He didn't actually cover the earth with water.
Fourth, Jesus too seems to believe the flood was a literal event:
"Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all. It was the same in the days of Lot."
~Luke 17:26-28 Jesus could've cleared things up by saying, "Just as it was in the parable of Noah..." yet he chose to describe these times as literal days. There were literal days before the flood, and literal days afterward. Jesus also says "It was the same in the days of Lot" — should we also take the story of Lot allegorically?
Fifth, elsewhere in the New Testament, Noah's flood is also understood as a literal event:
By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.
~Hebrews 11:7 ...to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water...
~1 Peter 3:20 ...he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others...
~2 Peter 2:5The people of "the ancient world" who were "disobedient long ago" were not imaginary, nor was the ark that Noah was building, they were all as real as Noah was.
Lastly, once again, there is the matter of the rainbow. Why do rainbows exist? According to the Bible...
And God said, "I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth... Never again will the waters become a flood to destroy all life."
~ Genesis 9:12-15 Why would God create a literal rainbow as a promise to protect us from a metaphorical flood?http://http://500questions.wordpress.com/2012/12/23/40-should-noahs-ark-be-taken-literally/ (http://http://500questions.wordpress.com/2012/12/23/40-should-noahs-ark-be-taken-literally/)
Pride before a fall. Father let me rant for a while and then brought me back in line. :HeartThrob:
D2, what you said here was wonderful:
Since God can do anything, and he wanted to teach us with pictures and scenarios and words, why wouldn't he cause things to happen as they were written rather than , essentially, not tell us the truth.I write all of this with a humble heart and ask for forgiveness.
With Love, your lil sis Julie :girlheart:
Quote from: ded2daworld on August 16, 2013, 06:46:12 PM
"All we know is that the "story" was recorded for our instruction and edification. None of which are changed if the story was 100% accurate, 50% embilshed or 100% fanticful. The message never changes."
Good point!
So, can we take God at his word? Do you think He ever wonders how silly we are to take something literally just because he had his different, but in agreement, secretaries right it down?
Since God can do anything, and he wanted to teach us with pictures and scenarios and words, why wouldn't he cause things to happen as they were written rather than , essentially, not tell us the truth. Jesus (God in the flesh) never disagreed with any old testament story and alsways talked as if the word was 100% true. "In the beginning He made them male and female" "In six days God created the heavens and the earth" If there was death before the fall of Adam and Eve(before sin) what is the point of Christ coming to save us from eternal death?
If there was millions of years before Adam and Eve, there had to be death before they existed. This isn't so with a six day creation.
I think Jesus knows what he's talking about...certainly more than fallible, sinful, man with an atheistic agenda.
(I'm not knocking anyone's beliefs, I believed all the same baloney even when I was a Christian. I just believe and am sorry now, that I didn't take God at his word, didn't trust him to tell me the truth, didn't trust him to be right when learned scientists claim different. God is infinitely smarter than the wisest man that ever lived. :Peace2:
I don't think it's a matter of a lack of trust in God to tell us the truth. We are truth-seekers here, and we question things, bounce around ideas, reject some, accept some, pray, read, study, listen to the Holy Spirit.
that is what the evil contrast is..it is not life at all...and is not of God's spirit..we know it as evil/wicked one..it,too has it's
influence on flesh.
Father teaches by contrast,positive and negative...He placed us in weak flesh..that is susceptible to the negative
forces..to manifest both positive and negative examples for teaaching His children.
when the fallen angels did what they did evil increased dramatically on the earth,to such an extent..that Father even wished
He had not placed us in this weak flesh[we shall all receive incorruptible vessels].
we are warned of this devourer and how it can result in the destruction of the flesh...that if we heed not God it maay suceed
in destroying our flesh and consuming us. And the same wicked contrast..active on men may also destroy our flesh,just
as Jesus was done..and His disciples and followers[fear not those who kill the body,then can do nothing else]
if He hadn't cut those days short..no flesh would be saved......there aare those who beleive to the salvation of the soul
aand just as in Christ's day warning ws given that when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies..flee.....the word
has gne out,come out of her my people...........
Jesus said 'as in the day's of Noah......."
now, I have caught few 'reality' shows..that exhibit people that seem to me so base,so materialsim minded and
so empty-headed..that I can't beleive there are people that shallow..and almost void of what I term humanity..but there
are indeed such people overcome..as madmen,serial torturers nd murderers..as religious madmen murderers also....
and in the days of the flood this was everywhere. Just remember...when the head appears in the wheat,also the weeds
appear.
a fiel..overtaken of so much weeds..is burned...but remember though one wheat be surrounded by eight tares..there
will be a seperation.. peoples bodies as soil/feilds.
this world is stored up for fire...tares will be burned and seperated from the wheat.
Father promised that never again would He bring a flood of waaters like that on the earth again...........when the evil contrast
flooded[overcame men] in Noah's day.....in that way[two wittness] they were destroyed.
Now,read the account of Gog and Magog in Rev 20..how satan goes forth to cover the land again.......and the fire come down
t destroy him[also note the scripture'satan himself will cause fire to come down from heaven. and remeber that in what way
anyone would hurt the two wittnesses in that manner they will be destroyed.
when God loses satan from the abyss to go forth[He that now restrains..angel with the great chain that has the key to abyss
it is the resurrection of the wicked[for when the head appears in the wheat the tares lso]
the dragon bound is the faallen ones....God prophecys what He will do..how He will lead him out in Ezekiel 39
God himself looses him from the abyss for his destruction[in case you wondered who let satan out of the abyss..and
who it was that was restraining him] and yes..we have had no idea of the great evil as the days f Noah..that God
has cut short for our sakes...that we may also see some good...but we will know as that dragon comes up from the abyss
set to devour the manchild.
.
Still doesn't answer the question. Since Jesus believed in a six day creation, noah's flood, and the 40 years in the desert after egypts chariots went floating, doesn't it make sense to believe what Jesus did. Does any human know more than He about what did and did not happen. Maybe he was just naive to believe his Father. I'm sure there are many places in the Bible where God didn't really mean what he said or he was telling us a fable to get us to the truth. :Peace2:
Thanks to everyone for the insight, especially Julie and ded2daworld, you both make some great points. The Flood and the Bible as a whole are really fascinating subjects for discussion :Peace2:
Quote from: ded2daworld on August 16, 2013, 09:20:54 PM
Still doesn't answer the question. Since Jesus believed in a six day creation, noah's flood, and the 40 years in the desert after egypts chariots went floating, doesn't it make sense to believe what Jesus did. Does any human know more than He about what did and did not happen. Maybe he was just naive to believe his Father. I'm sure there are many places in the Bible where God didn't really mean what he said or he was telling us a fable to get us to the truth. :Peace2:
Why do you assume Jesus
believed in six day creation, flood, and 40 years in desert? Isn't it possible that whenever he mentioned these bible events/stories that he was only speaking allegorically about them? I may occasionally speak of "mother nature," but I don't really believe in her as a literal figure. I may speak of Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, etc, but ... Does that mean I believe in those things?
Don't get me wrong. I believe the Word of God. But I also believe that any time we lean too far towards the literal, we begin to miss out on spiritual blessings that are hidden in it. These blessings are there for the seekers to find. Proverbs 25:2 [ESV] - "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter."
So does God say something happened that didn't really happen in order to get us to the truth or see some spiritual allegory??
I don't think so. Do you really think that Jesus said stuff he didn't really mean? Would he ever have referred to mother nature?
I also believe we can lean too far toward the allegorical, to where nothing really happened at all and it's all just a story so we will love God. I sure don't think so.
You end up with my signature line.
Cut off your hand?
Quote from: ded2daworld on August 18, 2013, 06:19:59 PM
So does God say something happened that didn't really happen in order to get us to the truth or see some spiritual allegory??
I don't think so. Do you really think that Jesus said stuff he didn't really mean? Would he ever have referred to mother nature?
I also believe we can lean too far toward the allegorical, to where nothing really happened at all and it's all just a story so we will love God. I sure don't think so.
You end up with my signature line.
IMO, Jesus spoke figuratively many times to the crowds, but tended to talk more straight-forward to his disciples in private. Certainly we don't want to lean too far towards literal
or figurative, but the Holy Spirit guides us in truth so that we will know the difference between truth and leaning too far.
Here are some examples of when Jesus spoke figuratively (IMO):
Matthew 5:14 You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden.
Jesus said it, but he didn't mean we are literally lights or cities.Matthew 5:29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into gehenna.
Jesus said we should remove our eye from our body and toss it in the trash can. IMO this is hyperbole, and if hyperbole, he didn't really mean it literally.Luke 18:25 For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.
The idea of a camel doing that is impossible and absurd. This is definitely hyperbole and figurative, IMO.Matthew 5:13 You are the salt of the earth...
Jesus said it, but we are not literally salt.John 6:54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
Jesus was definitely speaking figurative here, but the crowds sure thought he was weird for saying this, because they thought he meant it literally! Yikes![/size]
A literalist might argue that Matthew 5:29 was a commandment! I have heard that some people have actually gauged out their eye, believe it or not! Since John 6:54 was obviously meant in a symbolic way, we know that Jesus did not actually believe that we were to eat his literal flesh and drink his literal blood, but does that mean he told something he didn't believe? Absolutely not.
As the point was made earlier, if we get caught up in worrying about whether a bible event/story was literal history or allegorical, we miss the whole point of it having been included in the bible. Every event/story in the bible is there for to teach us something about the nature of our Father.
It's just that it scares the daylights out of most folks over where to draw the line between literal and figurative/allegorical. I understand their fear.
I have looked at the instances where Jesus referred to the creation, the flood, and Israel's time in the wilderness, and I don't believe we have to be worried about whether he believed these were historical or allegorical. Jesus gave no indication of how he believed these events to be. He merely referred to them. We often refer to "events" of fiction in our modern-day speech to make points. It does not mean we believe them to be non-fiction.
My point is,
we don't know whether Jesus "believed" them to be historical or allegorical, and we have no basis for believing He believed one way or the other.
The examples you gave had nothing to do with the written history of the Jews and/or the things God said happened. Are you saying you don't know if Jesus believed the old testament writings to be true? I think Jesus, being the word of God believed the word of God.
I believe.......Jesus....."being the word of God believed the word of God." In another words I don't think it. :HeartThrob:
And :iagree: "My point is, we don't know whether Jesus "believed" them to be historical or allegorical, and we have no basis for believing He believed one way or the other." :dsunny:
I think it's important since we are to have "the mind of Christ."
Si8nce the flood accounts say that "all" people werre destroyed except for the eight, we can allegorize the "all" and play right into the ET camp of saying all doesn't really mean all or God meant something other than all or what they usually say:
"YES! ALL righteous people will be saved just like in the days of Noah when the Lord destroyed ALL the unrighteous. Just like if you don't "accept" Jesus before you die, "ALL will die in their sins" not knowing Jesus.
So ET'ers are no different from us in that we interpret all to mean something else when it fits our belief and they do also.
I'm gonna stick with when God tells us the history of the human race - it's accurate plainly and maybe also allegorically. In either case, words like all will mean all. :Peace2:
First I believe the mind of Christ is becoming in us, should we have the mind of Christ already, we would be out of questions, we would know all the answers.
Second, I believe that All means All.
A global flood fits "a" historial christian theoligical doctrine that has been handed down, a story that "fits" how an all powerful God could do such a thing. Could the story spoke of, just be hyperbole?
I do not deny, but accept the parting of the sea and chariots now found beneath. I do not deny a flood that removed "all" save 8 souls, I cannot deny what
we are to, or do receive from what the flood represents, and that what we recieve from the record is, there was an ark filled with assorted animals and 8 souls, all brought aboard
by the Lord God.
Peter writes, "....which the then world....".......assumption was not just born yesterday and assumption does exclude translators, theology, commentaries, or denominations.
The story of an entire worldwide flood is a jaw dropping word of record. I believed that story for a very long time, but have come to understand, that
a worldwide flood is not needed for me, that's myself, to receive from that story of biblical history. Besides the fact, and the science that studys the earth finds no evidence
of a worldwide flood, metor craters from millions and billions of years ago that would have to show evidence in water lines show nada. The Grand Canyon is another example.
There was a flood of, ".... the then world....". My faith and belief in the Lord God Almighty was not diminished whatsoever. :Peace2:
Quote from: ded2daworld on August 19, 2013, 01:20:08 AM
The examples you gave had nothing to do with the written history of the Jews and/or the things God said happened. Are you saying you don't know if Jesus believed the old testament writings to be true? I think Jesus, being the word of God believed the word of God.
You are changing my words. I did not say that.
I actually said, "we
don't know whether Jesus "believed" them to be historical or allegorical, and we have no basis for believing
He believed one way or the other."
I think you need to re-read my post.
Quote from: ded2daworld on August 19, 2013, 02:45:26 PM
I think it's important since we are to have "the mind of Christ."
Si8nce the flood accounts say that "all" people werre destroyed except for the eight, we can allegorize the "all" and play right into the ET camp of saying all doesn't really mean all or God meant something other than all or what they usually say:
"YES! ALL righteous people will be saved just like in the days of Noah when the Lord destroyed ALL the unrighteous. Just like if you don't "accept" Jesus before you die, "ALL will die in their sins" not knowing Jesus.
So ET'ers are no different from us in that we interpret all to mean something else when it fits our belief and they do also.
I'm gonna stick with when God tells us the history of the human race - it's accurate plainly and maybe also allegorically. In either case, words like all will mean all. :Peace2:
The story of the flood and the ET doctrine really have nothing to do with each other, because the ET doctrine is false to start with. Although people
do sometimes argue points they want to be true to suit their own doctrinal tastes, that is not what we are doing here. We are giving our opinions of whether certain (not all) bible stories are historical or allegorical - not whether they are true or false, and not whether Jesus believed his own word or not (To question such a thing would be ridiculous.).
Furthermore, ET'ers
are dramatically different from us in their approach to the Word and the gospel.
As, well, I don't recall anyone arguing that "all" didn't mean "all" in the Word.
So a local flood destroyed "all" of humanity and every living thing that walks on the earth except for those in the ark?
By saying ALL weren't destroyed as the bible says, it gives et people the opening to deny where the bible says ALL will be saved.
and it's not if the bible has stories that are historical OR allegorical. It's the bible has historical stories which have some allegorical meaning also.
I guess my question is still since the Bible is true and accurate, why is there any need to say that some of the historical stories are only allegorical and not to be taken as literal truth? Has anyone ever proved the Bible wrong? Not on a single story and science backs up A created young earth and a global flood. I also think that Jesus corrected where people had wrong ideas about what the old testament said. None of these ideas concerned whether or not the flood was local or global.
Where can I find this? "Not on a single story and science backs up A created young earth and a global flood."
I just left the basic dates, it was long with names
COMPREHENSIVE LIST OF ANCIENT EGYPTIAN KINGS
With chronology
ARCHAIC PERIOD
(a.k.a. EARLY DYNASTIC)
Dynasty I: 3050-2857
Dynasty II: 2857-2705
OLD KINGDOM
Dynasty III: 2705-2630
Dynasty IV: 2630-2524
Dynasty V: 2524 2400
Dynasty VI: 2400-2250?
Dynasty VII: 2250?-2230
Dynasty VIII: 2230-2213
FIRST INTERMEDIATE PERIOD
Dynasty IX: 2213-ca. 2175
Dynasty X: ca. 2175-ca. 2035
. . . . ca. 2075
Nebkaure Akhtoy (father of Merikare?)
Dynasty XI: 2134-1991
Horus Tepi-'o Mentuhotep I 2134-
Nebtawyre Mentuhotep IV -1991
TIME OF ABRAHAM
When we come to the old dynasty 3 Nebka I 2705-2687, that was the time of the Bent Pyramid was built during his reign. Then when we come down to the forth dynasty which is 2630-2524 and we have Khufu/"Cheops" and the Great Pyramid of Cheops and that was 2606-2583 that he reigned.
In the sixth dynasty there was a Pharaoh called Pepi II he reigned from 2355-2261. How could Pepi have reigned from 2355 when seven years later there was Noah's flood? Yet years later he is still reigning. The flood occurred in the middle of the reign of Pepi II of the VI dynasty of the Old Kingdom, right in the middle of his reign. It didn't kill him, he reigned right through the flood.
I take this list all the way down to 1991 BC to Mentuhotep IV and he reigned at the time of Abraham. Now Abraham is just this side of the flood. So if you are going to tell me that the pyramids were built after the flood, then that's where they were, not knocked down. What are you going to do with a thousand years of perfectly documented history of the kings of Egypt? Some of these kings built them... Cheops built The Great Pyramid and we know when he reigned 2606-2583, that's when he built The Great Pyramid of Cheops. The Bent Pyramid was built back in 2705 under the reign of Nebka I.
So we know when the pyramids were built and we know who was reigning and it is unbroken for a thousand years. How are you going to cramp a thousand years of history, that occurred before the flood, into after the flood? Where are you going to put it? It's like we take all the history from 1750-1850 in the United States and try to cram it in between 1850-1950 how are you going to cram a hundred years of American history in there, I mean it is just foolishness. So there is the proof.
There was no (global) flood, it would have destroyed the pyramids. But if it didn't destroy the pyramids, then they would have had to be built after the flood. If they were built after the flood then you can't cram a thousand years of history in there... a fully documented history. If they say there was a flood and they survived the flood then you can't account for the two to three miles of strata underneath the pyramids. How was that water laid strata put down if the flood didn't even destroy the pyramid, how did it put down two to three miles of strata underneath the pyramids, you see. This thing book ended, there is no way around it. That is all the proof you will ever need.
Perfectly documented? Really? There are a few archeologists that put that timing off by 1,000 years so don't act like it's cut and dry. No scientist, no archeologists agree on the INTERPRETATION of the findings. (Well maybe there was a scarcophagus with a "Made in CXhina 3600 B.C. sticker on it.)Police have trouble figuring out what happened just hours after a murder scene and it's "perfectly documented" about what happened 4-5,000 years ago. In fact, we should take the word of pagans with an agenda over the inspired word of the God that cannot lie. (God is not a man that he should lie) :Peace2:
Quote from: ded2daworld on August 19, 2013, 07:31:12 PM
Perfectly documented? Really? There are a few archeologists that put that timing off by 1,000 years so don't act like it's cut and dry. No scientist, no archeologists agree on the INTERPRETATION of the findings. (Well maybe there was a scarcophagus with a "Made in CXhina 3600 B.C. sticker on it.)Police have trouble figuring out what happened just hours after a murder scene and it's "perfectly documented" about what happened 4-5,000 years ago. In fact, we should take the word of pagans with an agenda over the inspired word of the God that cannot lie. (God is not a man that he should lie) :Peace2:
No one here has accused God of lying.
No one here has accused the written word of containing lies.
No one here has accused Jesus of telling things he didn't believe.
I recall Gary Amiralt saying in his "The Rapture you missed" series how Biblical references to "all the world" meant all the world known to the original audience. I don't remember the exact Scriptures he quoted, but they were ones like this:
Colossians 1:5-6 - "of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit."
Gary made the case that "all the world" meant everywhere in which there were Jews. I am not an adherent to the local flood theory; however, if the great majority of scientific evidence supported a local flood, I probably wouldn't argue that Scripture says otherwise. On the other hand, Scripture completely prevents me from believing in Evolution, even if every scientific study said it was true.
Where and why would the thought and/or the word "evolution" come into the a debate on "the" flood"?
Evolution, the POTUS "evolved" in his thinking that gay was okay.( :doh:) That was humor. :laughing7:
But the word evolution seems to come up in biblical debate(why I do not know) I believe, and unless some one can change my reasoning, in evolution; but I cannot accept, the theory or hypothesis of evolution having anything to do with the written Word of the Lord regarding the creation. I, in the "human strain" am evolving, and that "change," I thank the Lord, is by His faith and Grace. And as David prayed, "How long Lord! How long!" :HeartThrob:
"No one here has accused God of lying.
No one here has accused the written word of containing lies.
No one here has accused Jesus of telling things he didn't believe." (jbertonbounds)
Spot on! :thumbsup: :dsunny:
Sure, because if we disagree with scripture or think science has "proved" what the bible says happened didn't happen, we can always just say, OH that was just an allegory, God didn't mean what every translation says about a worldwide flood. God doesn't understand the science of it all so he told a story about something that didn't really happen so our feeble minds could understand it. Scientists would never lie or stretch the truth even if big grant money is at stake because being atheist for the most part, they are more moral than the rest of us and know better about what happened than the eyewitness God. :Chinscratch:
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 20, 2013, 01:34:16 AM
But the word evolution seems to come up in biblical debate(why I do not know) I believe, and unless some one can change my reasoning, in evolution; but I cannot accept, the theory or hypothesis of evolution having anything to do with the written Word of the Lord regarding the creation. I, in the "human strain" am evolving, and that "change," I thank the Lord, is by His faith and Grace. And as David prayed, "How long Lord! How long!" :HeartThrob:
I agree. Very well stated.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 20, 2013, 01:34:16 AM
Where and why would the thought and/or the word "evolution" come into the a debate on "the" flood"?
Evolution, the POTUS "evolved" in his thinking that gay was okay.( :doh:) That was humor. :laughing7:
But the word evolution seems to come up in biblical debate(why I do not know) I believe, and unless some one can change my reasoning, in evolution; but I cannot accept, the theory or hypothesis of evolution having anything to do with the written Word of the Lord regarding the creation. I, in the "human strain" am evolving, and that "change," I thank the Lord, is by His faith and Grace. And as David prayed, "How long Lord! How long!" :HeartThrob:
Good point! :thumbsup:
The only connection that I can see between the flood and evolution is that some folks believe that the stories of the creation and the flood are both allegorical. Anyway, the word "evolution" scares the heckle out of Christians because it was presented by the scientific world back in the 50's or 60's (?) as a substitute theory for the biblical creation story, and some scientists used it to refute the truth of the Word. That in itself was antichrist. What almost nobody in Christendom realizes is that there is nothing to fear but fear itself. Evolution is a broad term, and is most often used in science to describe how species adapt to changes in their environments through time - it's a survival mechanism for life on earth. God made us that way. Evolution itself is not antichrist, and it's not a dirty word.
If you want to believe in a literal six-day creation or flood, wonderful! It's in our bibles, so believe your bible! If you want to think of the creation or flood stories as allegorical, then fine. There is nothing antichrist about that. God gave us reasoning ability, and he expects us to use it. Do what you were created to do: THINK.
And may your thoughts always be toward God.