The coming of the Lord

[fullarmor2]

      Who agrees ,  or doesn't,  that the Lord will return to the Earth,  only in the air and not to the ground(at this coming),  to "catch away"  the Lord's "called out ones"  .   Both the dead in Christ, asleep in the grave,  and those who are alive on the Earth and in Christ.   And that this event will deliver the Lord's "called out ones" from the terrible events that will happen to this World just prior to the Lord's return to the Earth to set up the Kingdom. 
   My thinking is,  that this is suppose to be our "blessed hope".    To be with the Lord forever more in his presence!   And that our knowledge of this hope is suppose to cause us to be watchful and to be looking for our Lord's appearing.    And that this should also help keep us motivated to be ready to meet the Lord bodily or literally.  If we are expecting the Lord to return at ANY moment,  that has a powerful and purifying  affect on us,  is my point.  :happy3: 

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Hi; no one is "flying away" if that's what you mean. In Noah's day only the wicked left the earth.......appearing is a verb that denotes action, not a noun; ie. He has appeared, He is appearing, He will appear. If you want to see how, study Matt. 13 the parable of the wheat and the tares. Blessings....

[martincisneros]

Yeah, 1Thessalonians 4 is talking about when you've entered into Tabernacling with Him, seated with Him in heavenly places as it says in Ephesians 2. Ephesians 2 describes being redeemed from trespasses by His Blood, and a lot of people lump it in together the part about being raised up to sit together with Him in heavenly places, but it's obviously not the same since we have sooo many that aren't ruling/reigning with Him now in this life per Romans 5:17 and numerous other passages.  Immortality is here, per 1Corinthians 15 'cause there's nothing that can be twisted into a "catching away" passage in 1Corinthians 15.  There is a catching away, but it's only to be with your spouse per Song of Solomon 6:11-13 compared with Ephesians 5, 1Corinthians 7, and with Colossians 2:5, and other passages.

Simply says in 1Corinthians 15 that the mortal put on immortality, corruptible puts on incorruption, but each in his own order -- and then the last verse of that chapter gives you the key with the yoke of a disciple so that everyone that's perfectly trained will be like his Master, per Luke 6:40.  When you can say that the Isaiah 40, Malachi 4, and Psalm 91 wings are the most real thing in your life right now, then you're seated with Him in heavenly places far above all principality and power, might and dominion, and every name that's named so that your meditations in the Word of Christ 'til it dwells in you richly in all wisdom releases you into everything you do and everything you say is in the Name of Jesus per Colossians 3:12-17.  When that happens, your tribulation has ended and Christ Jesus has been revealed in your mortal flesh; your regeneration as in the Sci-fi "Doctor Who" has occured.

Colossians 3:12-17 IS all true eschatology in a nutshell that stops short of talking about eons later with the abdication of Christ and the saints so that God is all in all because the Blood has acheived it's work, as well as the Melchezedec priesthood that every believer was to have become in this life as they'd arise with healing in their wings.  Song of Solomon must become each person's Apocalypse or they'll never function in the supernatural, but I've gone too far in saying that, so I'll stop right there with an allusion to Christ's oft repeated statement that if you've got ears to hear....then in the Words of St. Paul, all things are YOURS.  Romans 2 describes immortality as what you do, not what you become. :bgdance:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen........ :thumbsup:

[fullarmor2]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this.    I'm sure the Lord will end up surprising all of us by what the Lord does anyway!    And thats fine with me.  What ever the Lord does,  I know its going to be good!         

[fullarmor2]

          So my question is,    if there will not be a catching away or  rapture before the second coming,    then how is it that Jesus will be returning to Earth with all his church with him,  all on white horses to set up the Kingdom?  They wouldn't all be with Jesus,  there would still be some who have not died physically yet,  on the Earth when Jesus comes back?    This makes no sense.   

[reFORMer]

          So my question is,    if there will not be a catching away or  rapture before the second coming,    then how is it that Jesus will be returning to Earth with all his church with him,  all on white horses to set up the Kingdom?  They wouldn't all be with Jesus,  there would still be some who have not died physically yet,  on the Earth when Jesus comes back?    This makes no sense. 

My experience is you cannot think clearly about these things when you use non scriptural terminology.  Various things are packed into the unbiblical term, "Rapture," for instance, so its meaning is uncertain to the one hearing it in use.  Its meaning differs from this person to that, and from one group to another.

Also, trying to cram this and that into some preconceived schedule handed down from racial dispensationalists is a losing game.  Their avoidance of what is written is so many times based on some extraneous to the text insertion like, "This is talking about the Jews, not us;" or, "This is not about before you die;" or, "That is after the 2nd Coming, not now;" or, "The other is only for the believers, not all."  (It seems a common principle rule of interpretation is whatever is written is for another people in another place at another time.)

Like some of what you say in the quote above: harpazo is, "to seize for one's own possession," the "up" in "caught up" and the "away" in "caught away," these are not in the original.

Those who are on white horses along with "The Word of God" are not said to be the Eclessia, but are celestial armys following Him.  When Elijah's servants eye's were open he saw the armies of heaven with them were more than those accompanying the wicked King.

There is nothing that speaks of the Eclessia "disappearing" or that it will happen suddenly, without warning, at any moment.  Nothing has settled for me that "it" will occur for all believers simultaneously.  The common teaching is it is for gentile believers to be "Raptured" not Jews.  The people in Israel are not racially descended form Abraham, while I have in the last year seen it proposed (by those who are supposed to specialize in prophecy that have worldwide television "ministries") that their being Jews is racial and the promises are on that basis to them. Haven't they read John 8 (for instance) and what Jesus says to those who were racially descended from Abraham?

There is no phrase, "Seven years great tribulation" in the Bible.  There is no phrase there that says, "the 2nd Coming" either.

Over 40 times the King James renders "to be present" as "coming," which contributes to the confusion.

It has helped me to trace the various forms (at least eight) Jesus has assumed or will according to what is written.  From that I deduce that the next thing prophetically ("The Barley Harvest") is Jesus' presence as the Holy Ghost in us that the world does not perceive and cannot receive will be unveiled.  He will manifest from the heavens from whence He dwells in us to reign with us in all the earth.

[Livelystone]

Greetings

Seven times in the Scriptures it says to us that the Lord is to stay at the right hand God until He makes the enemies of Christ His footstool........ and the last enemy to be overcome is death

As the Lord comes unto us time and time again His enemies are being made His footstool as we in turn become the footstool that lifts the Lord up for others to see His Work in us that is destroying His enemies whom are within us.

When we have put to death the old ways of Adam and Eve in us whom at best can only bring forth a form of righteousness such as Abel whom although good still cries out from the earth then God through His Son may be all in us......... Only then may we as the sons of Levi be sanctified because He that is sanctified and He who sanctifies us is one in the same.

Then the prophecy of Hebrews 9: 28 will be fulfilled and the world will see the second coming of Christ in us and us without sin.

He. 9: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Our salvation is not to be spared from doctrines that we know are not true but to be without sin and able to "go and sin no more"

Righteousness is by faith and faith is by righteousness. Faith is not ours to increase because faith is from above and not of the earth. He is a seed that is planted in us and that is the like measure of faith that is given unto all who are baptized in the Holy Spirit.

It is Him who is increasing that faith in us from a mere seed unto a fruit baring tree because truth can only be increased by more truth and there is no truth for His seed that does not come from Him.

Hebrews 6:7
For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

Will Jesus as the son of Mary ever walk on earth again? Maybe but according to Scripture not until all His enemies have been made His footstool....... meanwhile though He appears unto us time and time again as we are on the road to Emmaus that translated is a place of baths where we are cleansed.......... when that cleansing is done then we too may go up to and abide in Jerusalem that is from above and the mother of us all

just my  :2c:

Blessings

Doug

[Cardinal]

          So my question is,    if there will not be a catching away or  rapture before the second coming,    then how is it that Jesus will be returning to Earth with all his church with him,  all on white horses to set up the Kingdom?  They wouldn't all be with Jesus,  there would still be some who have not died physically yet,  on the Earth when Jesus comes back?    This makes no sense. 

My experience is you cannot think clearly about these things when you use non scriptural terminology.  Various things are packed into the unbiblical term, "Rapture," for instance, so its meaning is uncertain to the one hearing it in use.  Its meaning differs from this person to that, and from one group to another.

Also, trying to cram this and that into some preconceived schedule handed down from racial dispensationalists is a losing game.  Their avoidance of what is written is so many times based on some extraneous to the text insertion like, "This is talking about the Jews, not us;" or, "This is not about before you die;" or, "That is after the 2nd Coming, not now;" or, "The other is only for the believers, not all."  (It seems a common principle rule of interpretation is whatever is written is for another people in another place at another time.)

Like some of what you say in the quote above: harpazo is, "to seize for one's own possession," the "up" in "caught up" and the "away" in "caught away," these are not in the original.

Those who are on white horses along with "The Word of God" are not said to be the Eclessia, but are celestial armys following Him.  When Elijah's servants eye's were open he saw the armies of heaven with them were more than those accompanying the wicked King.

There is nothing that speaks of the Eclessia "disappearing" or that it will happen suddenly, without warning, at any moment.  Nothing has settled for me that "it" will occur for all believers simultaneously.  The common teaching is it is for gentile believers to be "Raptured" not Jews.  The people in Israel are not racially descended form Abraham, while I have in the last year seen it proposed (by those who are supposed to specialize in prophecy that have worldwide television "ministries") that their being Jews is racial and the promises are on that basis to them. Haven't they read John 8 (for instance) and what Jesus says to those who were racially descended from Abraham?

There is no phrase, "Seven years great tribulation" in the Bible.  There is no phrase there that says, "the 2nd Coming" either.

Over 40 times the King James renders "to be present" as "coming," which contributes to the confusion.

It has helped me to trace the various forms (at least eight) Jesus has assumed or will according to what is written.  From that I deduce that the next thing prophetically ("The Barley Harvest") is Jesus' presence as the Holy Ghost in us that the world does not perceive and cannot receive will be unveiled.  He will manifest from the heavens from whence He dwells in us to reign with us in all the earth.

:cloud9: AMEN, reFORMer......I tire of the lifeless, carnally minded scenarios based on words that do not exist, patterns that do not conform to the Tabernacle, and that are ALWAYS for another day, ie. either the thief on the left or the thief on the right. NOW is the "day" of the Lord; it is always NOW, in an atomos, ie. a moment in time, when timelessness reveals Itself in our inner man. Come, Lord, come. Blessings.....

[fullarmor2]

    After the ascension,  to "angels"   stood by and said,  "people of Galilee,  why do you stand looking into Heaven"?    "This same Jesus will return in the manner that you have seen him go".

   What were the "angels"   referring to here ?   

[reFORMer]

After speaking to them of the power of the Holy Spirit to make them witnesses to Him...
Acts 1:9-11 (CLT)...
9 And saying these things, while they are looking, He was lifted up, and a cloud took Him up from their eyes.
10 And as they were looking intently into heaven at His going, lo ! two men stand beside them in white attire,
11 who say also, "Men! Galileans! Why do you stand, looking into heaven? This Jesus Who is being taken up from you into heaven shall come thus, in the manner in which you gaze at Him going into heaven."

The Holy Spirit is coming upon the saints to make them even more so "witnesses" unto Him.  We are being anointed to gaze into the heaven upon Him.  "we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord." (2 Co 3:18, AV)

It has been often pointed out, that passage saying:  "...having so vast a cloud of witnesses encompassing us..." (Hb 12:1,) which speaks of those persons just enumerated as demonstrating faith (that works by love) in the previous chapter.  They are a cloud.  While this is a true direction to take, that is, many of us as the clouds in which He appears, it does not dismiss the fact that "Lo! He is coming with clouds, and every eye shall be seeing Him..." (Rv 1:7, CLT)  I encounter Him as a presence, as a cloud, not of smoke, but of awesome love, or a cloud of joy unspeakable.  He shows Himself present in radiant glory.  He is descending out of the higher realms of the heavens to manifest unto us, changing us to be like He is.  It is the Word we're born of in the earth that rises up as Spirit to, "Come as the rain" from clouds condensing in the heavenlies.

Hosea 6:2-3 (AV)...
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

That change will yield a crop of immortal humans, born of God beings with power and glory to be the determining factor in the affairs of mankind.  His seizing us for His own possession will bring about our becoming like Him.  Do people generally see Him who raised from the dead, immortal, ascended and sent Himself as Spirit into us?  Yet, some see Him.  So it is with what is coming.  Many people will not immediately recognize a difference.  But, as the morning sky, the light will soon dawn upon those who remain in that time.

The Head not only left by ascension, His presence manifested in His people will be by their ascension.  As well, as His going into the heavenlies (which is where those that seek Him find Him today) was preceded by appearing, not to the world or even Israel, but unto those He had chosen; so, as His "coming to be present with His saints" approaches, He is in like manner appearing to those He has chosen.  We are in the days of preparation for the kingdoms of this world to become the kingdoms of our God and His Christ, a new and many membered man (not according to Adam) coming out of the Heavens, being revealed with His saints.  He is worthy of a people upon whom is the name of His God, the name of the city of God, and His new name.

And yes, just like as He went into the heavens, there will be increased angelic activity among us.


your brother, James Rohde

[Livelystone]

    After the ascension,  to "angels"   stood by and said,  "people of Galilee,  why do you stand looking into Heaven"?    "This same Jesus will return in the manner that you have seen him go".

   What were the "angels"   referring to here ?   

We can always find our answers to Biblical questions in the same place they arise from .......... the Bible and this case just as many others answers do this one lies somewhere either in the tabernacle itself or how things worked within the tabernacle.

Essentially this passage says Jesus will be seen coming in the clouds by all who's attention is focused there looking for him.

The OT tabernacle prophesies that we as priests shall also see God just as Moses did in the clouds of smoke that were produced when the incense was placed on the golden censer that consequently made the clouds that appeared !!!!

There are several prophetic teachings here if we take time to hear what the spirit is saying to us.........Please note in Hebrews 9: 4 that this golden censor is now in the Holiest Room where before in the OT it was always in the the larger room EXCEPT ON THE DAY OF ATONEMENT WHEN THE PRIEST PUSHED IT AHEAD OF HIM AS HE ENTERED INTO THE HOLIEST TO BE IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD.

ON THAT DAY THERE WERE TWO HANDFULS OF INCENSE USED TO PRODUCE THE SMOKE VERSUS THE ONE HANDFUL NORMALLY USED

In Revelations we see where the "cloud making" incense represents our prayers that go up before God.

Revelation 8:3
And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Revelation 8:4
And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.


The two handfuls versus the one handful represents not only the higher praises and prayers of those who do go into the Holiest to be with Jesus who Hebrews tells us is in there at the right hand of God AND "EXPECTING US" TO SHOW UP"......... BUT ALSO JUST AS THE LEVITICAL PRIEST ON THE DAY OF ATONEMENT WENT BEHIND THE VEIL A SECOND TIME,............... so must we have a second experience behind the veil just like when we were firsts baptized in the Holy Spirit that allowed us to go into the Holiest the first time to be in the presence of God........ see Hebrews 9: 28 for this when after this "second experience" we are the ones who appear without sin having gone through the baths of Emmaus and been cleansed of the "sin" that is a living principality within us that is the serpent seed that was also the thorn in the flesh of paul that he asked God to remove from him......... of course God did not. Not because it will not happen but because it was not yet the appointed time.

Appointed times is a whole different subject but meanwhile I think you can see what the angels meant when spoke of how Jesus will appear in like manner and in the clouds.

Blessings

Doug

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Good words James and Doug  :thumbsup: ........for my  :2c: we ARE the clouds He is going to appear in, as well, and does appear in NOW. Dust and cloud are the same thing, only one is RAISED UP by water vapor. Thus, Jude speaks of clouds WITHOUT WATER. But we are not clouds without water, amen?

Additionally, the same Jesus you see, or perceive thru the mind of Christ, is the one that "appears" to you. This is why in churches, where say, healing, is taught, He "appears" as the healer. Blessings....

[Molly]

Regarding the return of Christ--the scripture states that you will not see Jesus--'out there'--

This warning comes to us directly from our Lord.  I was watching Leo Zagami (don't ask lol) declare himself the Messiah and say how he is going to usher in the kingdom of God in 2012 with a 7 year tribulation until 2019,  and I realized why the Lord gave us this warning--so that we will not be deceived by those claiming to be the Messiah--although I suspect somebody is going to pull something like that on a worldwide scale--Moreover, with the technology they have nowadays, it would not be that difficult to show Leo, I mean the 'Messiah', descending from the sky lol--



22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

--Mat 24



20And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

21And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

22For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

--Mark 13



20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

22And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

--Luke 17

[rosered]

 

your post blessed me Molly !

  I always liked this answer too  the cloud / witness  can be anyone the Lord chooses to come and speak His word/truth  to /out from  :HeartThrob:

  messengers /angels and men .....

  When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 


Act 1:7   And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 


Act 1:8   But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. 


Act 1:9 ¶ And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 


Act 1:10   And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 

Act 1:11   Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.   
wow food for thought   :thumbsup:

[fullarmor2]

I like all this.  You all are essentially emphasizing  the experience we had  when we came to a knowledge of the truth of Jesus Christ by Jesus' grace and revealing himself to us and making his abode in us by his precious Spirit.      So we can experience the presence of Jesus 24/7 !  I know I had a wonderful time today with the Lord on my truck driving job,  as usual!   

[rosered]

I like all this.  You all are essentially emphasizing  the experience we had  when we came to a knowledge of the truth of Jesus Christ by Jesus' grace and revealing himself to us and making his abode in us by his precious Spirit.      So we can experience the presence of Jesus 24/7 !  I know I had a wonderful time today with the Lord on my truck driving job,  as usual!   

  great witness fullarmor !   when Jesus  heals us we do get those spiritual ears and eyes  and we sure DO see and hear Him :HeartThrob:  and glorify  Him , we did not do this  on our own power but In His Power 
thats cool stuff to me
  I used to always ask where is this power  from on high ?

  but I know its a spiritual truth now  but also ,  can be seen to the outer most courts / natural realm too  GOD is soooo amazing in every way ... :icon_flower:
peace bro ! rose