The believer and human government: What saith the Scriptures?

[anna274]

PRAY

1 Tim 2:1-4

I exhort therefore that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving thanks, be made for ALL men.

For kings, and for all that are in authority;  that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of GOD our SAVIOR;

WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, AND TO COME UNTO THE KNOWLEDGE OF TRUTH.



OBEY

Ephesians 6: 5-7

Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;

Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;

With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men:



PAY

Matt 27:17

Jesus saith unto him...  Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast a hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money:  that take, and give unto them for me and thee.
   

These three "commands" were given at a time when the Roman rulers were very probably more corrupt than our current government...

[JulieTang84]

Give into to Ceasor what is his and to Father what is Father's.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Lazarus Short]

Give unto Caesar?

I'm reminded of that CCR song:  "...but when you ask them, "how much should we give?"  They only answer, "More, more, more..."  :2c: :punish: :2c: :punish: :2c: :punish: :2c: :punish: :2c:

[anna274]

Julie   Lazarus

???????????????????????????????

So we don't need to pray nor obey, just pay???

Oh my, it seems we don't even need to pay...because if we do, they will just ask for more, more, more....

[Lazarus Short]

Anna, I was just exercising my usual cynical outlook on the ways of man, insatiable greed and the like... :sigh:

But seriously, should we as Christians, continue to support a system with our tax money which continues to kill and oppress people (including Christians) around the world?  :dunno2:

[sheila]

actually Anna..that instance withthe fish was atemple tax the religious leaders had required of the       [Herods temple]

worshippers there....and He said the sons of the Kingdom were exempt...but did that to not

stumble them[not Roman taxes]

   and we have to be very carefulright now..as to not be discerned as those leading a rebellion

[amm I leading a rebellion that ye come for me with clubs and swords] especially when the nation's

were under eyes christians andreligious zealouts as possible terrorist threats[rightly so in

some instances]  Israel was chafing against the Roman rule and many rebelled against

the government authorities...but He would have led them in the way of peace.......

      the clay and the iron[people and the governments] won't cleave to each other...

   and it is in themidst of that scenario when the stone not cut out by human hands..

  strikes at the feet of the colosseus...and grows into a mountain that fills the earth.......

   those truly of Christ are apeaceful law abiding people......as far as itdependson you

be peaceable with all men.......the only problem a government would have with them

would be in regard to the worship of God [Daniel]

[sheila]

another  :2c:    and yes..He said..'Give unto Caesar his due"  but He also shows aand speaks

of a time when..no-ne can buy or sell without receiving the mark of the beast..and those

that do receive it..can not live........the merchant's stand afar in thye day of Babylons destruction

    they greive for the city's destruction because they become rich from her......

   we can not serve God and Mammon....and just as in His days upn the earth we found

buying and selling going on in the temple...that turned His Father's house into

a den of robbers and theives. Somtoo we find today....

    Religious leaders robbed widows houses...that they may have best seats at banquets

and go about in flowing robes.  when Jesus spoke of this robbing the poor in the name of God

  He also sat to watch the poor widow put in all she had [widows mite]  He said...they

all gave out of their abundance..while this woman gave all she had tolive on. What

He was really demonstrating was the religious leaders greedof riches that they would so

   leave a widow desolate of provision inthe name of serving God..as taught by the religious

leaders. For you can bear wittness that God made provision in Israel that the poor be provided

for

.  It is not of the spirit that any flesh boast[I give more than any other]eventhe poor widows

    IS IT REALLY GOD'S DESIRE THAT WIDOWS BE DESOLATE? I think not.

   if you love your brother as yourself..you don't give a piddlin of your great wealth and

require the poor to give their daily sustenance.


   Judas Preist's rob the widows on their soc sec pensions and live in shameless luxury

   now,some-one will say...but what about the rich man...that Jesus told him to goand sell all

of his possessions and then come follow me..........remember that Jesus had been asked

  what yet do I lack? by Him...for he said he loved God and his brother as himself..yet

  he had stored up a great many possessions for himself..while there were plenty poor in that

city that he could have actually shown love to in deed..instead of the  lip-service he

offered... Jesus told him what his lack was...a love of money...further evidenced when

the man showed that he was unwilling to part with any of his possesions to help another

brother in need.

   now the harlot sits on the beast....and the merchants[mega-corporations] of this moneyed

system..have waxed very rich and fat...while the people under them become more destitute.

      andwhen the beast turns on the harlot to destroy her...the merchants mourn.......

   those that serve the god of mammon in this earth have done this as well as Babylon

and her Judas preists..


           Feed my sheep,feed my sheep,feed my sheep....give them their food at the appointed

time.   No man ever hated his own flesh..but feeds and cherishes it...............
.

     Glbally riots have begun when the people no longer can afford to eat....the powers that be

and the merchants..and the Babylon whore should have realized this..but were blinded

by their greed. Did they really think it was God's will that they rob the poor as they heap up

their wealth?  Maybe..if they served Mammon itwas their gods will..


   look!   I was hungry and you fed me,naaked and you clthed me,in prison and you visited me

sick and you cared for me. Are the governments doing these things? it will go well with them

if they are. There is no hidden thing which will not be revealed.  He will settle disputes

between strong nations.  The prince of this world has been judged that his works are wicked.


    Those that bear the sceptor inthis world will give an account unto God.....

[anna274]

Thanks Sheila.  I apologize - I did confuse the temple tax with Roman taxes.  So eager was I to maintain rhyme in my 3-step plan (Pray, Obey, Pay)

I should have used Matt 22:31; Mark 12:17; and Luke 20:25...   three witnesses to "... render unto Caesar the things that are Cesar's...  (which, it seems, would include paying taxes) for the Pay step.

[sheila]

   :friendstu:  yesmwe are to pay them...forthe services they render in keeping order.....

      and they too are subject unto God to give an account.  any authority has accountability.

         

[anna274]

Because I have many very strong objections to how our government functions and "hate" that my money is being used to carry out those functions, I find myself often "obeying" the exhortation 1 Tim 2:1-4. with special emphasis on v. 4 Who will have ALL men to be saved, and come unto the knowledge of truth.

I always keep in mind that man cannot fix man, only God can fix man.(Ps 118:8)
and "Fear ye not, stand still, and SEE the salvation of the Lord, which He will show you this day... "  Ex.14:13   

Actually, I do believe that PRAYER is more powerful than PROTEST (the loud and public type, that is...   Prayer may not change the government functions that I do not approve... however, a delightful peace enters my whole being just knowing that God oversees all...  this calmness on my part has brought comfort to at least a couple of the tenants here... they know that I have a deep, deep faith ...

[sheila]

 :thumbsup:   I agree we should pray for them,too.Anna.........the anguishofnations not

knowing the way out,becauseofthe roaring of the sea.

[JulieTang84]

Submission to Governing Authorities

Roman 13
1Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4For the one in authority is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.
6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

Love Fulfills the Law
8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.9The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not covet,"^a and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."^b 10Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Love is the FULFILLMENT of the Law :HeartThrob:

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[dajomaco]

When you sell everything you possess and lay at the feet of the early church leaders.
That sort of makes the whole concern about paying taxes a non-starter.

It seems that God Knew the good news of the gospel would bring more Glory to Christ
by allowing the Roman soldiers to kill the early believers for Christ's sake.
As opposed to killing them for non-payment of taxes.     

I have a long way to go to get there.
I will practice love.
There is no money in practicing law.

[anna274]

When you sell everything you possess and lay at the feet of the early church leaders.
That sort of makes the whole concern about paying taxes a non-starter.

It seems that God Knew the good news of the gospel would bring more Glory to Christ
by allowing the Roman soldiers to kill the early believers for Christ's sake.
As opposed to killing them for non-payment of taxes.     

I have a long way to go to get there.
I will practice love.
There is no money in practicing law.

a few scriptural references that I think support all that you said

John 15

v 12  This is my commandment, That you love one another, AS I HAVE LOVED YOU.

v 13  GREATER LOVE hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

v 18  If the world hate you, you know that it hated me before it hated you.

v 20  Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord.  If they have persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; ...

v 21  But all these things will they do unto you for MY NAME'S SAKE, because they know not Him that sent me.


John 17:23
I in them, and Thou in Me; that they may be made perfect one; and THAT THE WORLD MAY KNOW THAT THOU HAS SENT ME, AND HAST LOVED THEM, AS THOU HAST LOVED ME.

[eaglesway]

IMO, We obey the earthly institutions in so far as they are empowered to keep peace and punish lawbreakers and maintain a civilized system of social structure.

We do not obey when we are told to be silent.

We ought to cry out against injustice, everyone according to the dictates of their own heart and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.....even if it breaks the law, even as the prophets and apostles before us did also- as well as among our brethren in persecuted lands. must do.

We ought to pay our taxes if we can. If the oppression of a corrupt system robs us of the ability to pay them then we will suffer like other men do when misfortune or corruption destroys their enterprises, and that with a clear conscience.

Like any exhortation......Paul's exhortation to civil obedience ought not be made into law or taken too far or elevated above the simple wisdom of living in peace and praying for all men. and living up to normal requirements of living in a civilized society including taxes........but,

I can't find that fish with the gold coin in its mouth. :o) The Taxman has abused me some in the past and is as lawless  and corrupt in these days as any oppressor in any third world nation. Better to stay on his rite side anyway, regardless ;o)

[anna274]

re:  "...ought not to be made into law..."

I agree.  I apologize (I'm doing that quite a bit lately!!!)  I guess I thought by putting quotation marks around the word "commands" (see OP) I would be indicating that I am not making the 3-step plan/Pray, Obey, Pay=Law.

I also made a pretty strong statement re:  Prayer more powerful than Protest... and, again I apologize... each of us must do what we believe the Lord is calling us to do...and that could very well mean a call to protest.   However, my statement Prayer more powerful than Protest was not made without reason...

My all-time favorite story of prayer as opposed to protesting (publicly)

My grandfather shared a most beautiful story with me... he was one of the Germans who had accepted Katherine the Great's invitation to farmers (land owners) to come to Russia to assist Russia in its farming endeavors...  Germany was in a state of unrest at the time and so grandpa and other relatives gladly went to Russia... but when these German farmers learned that the real reason for the invitation was to enlarge Russia's military... grandpa and others came to America. (well, that might be a form of protesting!!!)  All went very well until the US entered WW11.  My youngest uncle was drafted to serve in the US army.  Grandpa told me he had little to no respect for Hitler, but he understood why the German people followed Hitler... the Jews in Germany were disliked intensely for their ruthlessness in money matters, etc.,   as Grandpa continued telling me the story of Uncle Bill... he actually starting weeping as he recalled the time of Uncle Bill's draft... grandpa could not tolerate the fact that his youngest son could very well kill some of his cousins... BUT grandpa loved America and so he wept and wept and prayed and PRAYED...

His prayers were answered.  Uncle Bill would serve his country but would never have to carry a gun...yes, there were Conscientious Objectors in the military during WW11.  Uncle Bill was an ambulance driver/litter bearer and aided the wounded allies AND enemies.  He received a couple of awards for his service to his country.

======

[sheila]

....thoroughly enjoyed reading this account,Anna!.......reminded me of the prophet that

didn'twant his bread cooked over  human dung..andobjected to it. The Lord takes into consideration

our sensibitlties..and is very gracious to us.  What a wonderful wonderful God!

[rosered]

  Amen , !!

  Ol Ezekiel ,  God called the Son of Man ,

I found some great insights to  some of these  scriptures  and others have me perplexed still to this day !
I love the thoughts  of the splitting of  a hair ,  Hair is one thing I have  considered as a ''thought''
   that comes to us  before an action  ,   the hair cannot be made black /dark thoughts  or white pure thoughts  , they just   serves Gods purpose  as we learn to trust God though them all   

  and the  human dung / being the waste of  mankind as a fuel to serve ''food '' for thought
  and the Lord granted him   animals/ beasts   as fuel   to burn  to food for thought
 

  For me , this  is just a strange wat to intrepret a meaning from these scriptures   ,  That God in his mercy still allowed a   ''request ''   to be answered  by the son of man / Ezekiel  a prophet of God   to be able to  deal with  his  calling without  being defiled by doing so  , easing the guilt of conscience   and that he could do the right thing and still glorify God  in it   without harming his own  integrity    .if you dont feel right about what your doing its hard to do it   and Ezekiels thoughts  were divided as hairs  and God  gave him comfort   going though it . proving Gods faithfulness  to those whom He loves and is dealing with .

In my own limited  understanding  , its just enough  that Gods mercy shows me He is still dealing with us and thats   most precious    !!    Thankful  for His grace to us all .

Ezekiel 5:1-3
King James Version (KJV)

5 And thou, son of man, take thee a sharp knife, take thee a barber's razor, and cause it to pass upon thine head and upon thy beard: then take thee balances to weigh, and divide the hair.


2 Thou shalt burn with fire a third part in the midst of the city, when the days of the siege are fulfilled: and thou shalt take a third part, and smite about it with a knife: and a third part thou shalt scatter in the wind; and I will draw out a sword after them.

3 Thou shalt also take thereof a few in number, and bind them in thy skirts.

King James Version (KJV)

Ezekiel 4:11-16  King James Version (KJV)
11 Thou shalt drink also water by measure, the sixth part of an hin: from time to time shalt thou drink.

12 And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight.13 And the Lord said, Even thus shall the children of Israel eat their defiled bread among the Gentiles, whither I will drive them.

14 Then said I, Ah Lord God! behold, my soul hath not been polluted: for from my youth up even till now have I not eaten of that which dieth of itself, or is torn in pieces; neither came there abominable flesh into my mouth.

15 Then he said unto me, Lo, I have given thee cow's dung for man's dung, and thou shalt prepare thy bread therewith.

16 Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, behold, I will break the staff of bread in Jerusalem: and they shall eat bread by weight, and with care; and they shall drink water by measure, and with astonishment

[eaglesway]

re:  "...ought not to be made into law..."

I agree.  I apologize (I'm doing that quite a bit lately!!!)  I guess I thought by putting quotation marks around the word "commands" (see OP) I would be indicating that I am not making the 3-step plan/Pray, Obey, Pay=Law.

I also made a pretty strong statement re:  Prayer more powerful than Protest... and, again I apologize... each of us must do what we believe the Lord is calling us to do...and that could very well mean a call to protest.   However, my statement Prayer more powerful than Protest was not made without reason...

My all-time favorite story of prayer as opposed to protesting (publicly)

My grandfather shared a most beautiful story with me... he was one of the Germans who had accepted Katherine the Great's invitation to farmers (land owners) to come to Russia to assist Russia in its farming endeavors...  Germany was in a state of unrest at the time and so grandpa and other relatives gladly went to Russia... but when these German farmers learned that the real reason for the invitation was to enlarge Russia's military... grandpa and others came to America. (well, that might be a form of protesting!!!)  All went very well until the US entered WW11.  My youngest uncle was drafted to serve in the US army.  Grandpa told me he had little to no respect for Hitler, but he understood why the German people followed Hitler... the Jews in Germany were disliked intensely for their ruthlessness in money matters, etc.,   as Grandpa continued telling me the story of Uncle Bill... he actually starting weeping as he recalled the time of Uncle Bill's draft... grandpa could not tolerate the fact that his youngest son could very well kill some of his cousins... BUT grandpa loved America and so he wept and wept and prayed and PRAYED...

His prayers were answered.  Uncle Bill would serve his country but would never have to carry a gun...yes, there were Conscientious Objectors in the military during WW11.  Uncle Bill was an ambulance driver/litter bearer and aided the wounded allies AND enemies.  He received a couple of awards for his service to his country.

======

Hi anna :o)

I was just giving my general opinion on the subject. I was not implying that you were making civil obedience into law :o)

[Seth]

IMHO, I think what Paul is getting at in those above scriptures is that we should give no offense to man other than the Gospel, the cross of which is an offense for sure. I think the idea is that if we suffer rebuke of men, let it be because we told the truth, not because we broke the laws of the land.

[Jock]

At what point does one disobey the civil authorities?

[Seth]

I think each person should examine that from a Romans 12:2 perspective (paraphrased)

Don't be conformed to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind so you can examine God's good, perfect and pleasing will.

[sheila]

when they order you to disobey God's command....such as what happened to Daniel when the decree

went out no one could pray but to the king...and Daniel continued praying to God.

  or early christians failing to hail Caeser as god[i think it was caeser?] or any governments

requiring you to bow down and worship theire ...any but the true God and Jesus Christ.......

         my :2c:

[Seth]

when they order you to disobey God's command....such as what happened to Daniel when the decree

went out no one could pray but to the king...and Daniel continued praying to God.

  or early christians failing to hail Caeser as god[i think it was caeser?] or any governments

requiring you to bow down and worship theire ...any but the true God and Jesus Christ.......

         my :2c:

:Urock:

[Jock]

Yes, Sheila, I agree!


And when they had brought them, they set them before the council: and the high priest asked them,
Act 5:28

Act 5:29
Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.  Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

That time may be coming for us.

:Peace2:

Jock.