I'm starting this here as a sort of spin-off, or having been prompted by dajo's thread - so as not to hijack his, with the main point of his being about grace.
It got me thinking about teaching. We sort of discourage "teaching" here on the boards, rather asking that we share as opinions, understandings, "I believe" etc. By discouraging "teaching", we tend to mean making absolute declarations, especially on-going and/or large bodies of such.
However, for me all this begs the question - "what is teaching?". Who does it? Do we all in one way or another - perhaps either by just sharing what we believe/IMO, and even just how we go about our lives every day? Aren't people watching and learning - either good or bad, by what we do, what our attitudes and behaviors are? I've personally learned many things from others' teaching - some good, some bad/not useful. ("Test all things, hold to that which is good").
Then are there some that actually have a gift/specialty of teaching that goes beyond each of our daily sharing? I think of folks like J. Preston Eby, and Gary, who writes articles and makes videos.
The Apostle Paul had much to say about teaching and contending for sound doctrine in his own teachings about how the new covenant/ecclesia believers were to operate. He further said we should teach with a good, gentle attitude - hoping to help/redeem.
One of his main exhortations was this one we hold dear -
"..Savior of all men, especially of those believing. Charge these things and TEACH".
Thoughts on "teaching"?
Blessings.
reF posted this in the other thread - "The, "No need that any man teach you" word begins in the KJV with, "Ye," as in, "Ye have no need." This is plural. It is the visible and local church who needs no human teacher."
I responded with "Paul had much to say about teaching in the ecclesia". So IMO, the scriptures reconcile somehow.
So what do they mean?
" And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and [didaskalous] teachers; Eph. 4:10"
And who/what exactly is a [didaskalous] teacher, within the group of called ones [ecclesia]? No one? (I can't see that's what Paul's saying :Chinscratch:). If there are - as it seems Paul is saying - is it just a few? Potentially everyone? And what is teaching?
reF, this had already crossed my mind, but your comment brings it back to the forefront for me. I know how you feel about the current "church" hierarchy, and I share many of the same sentiments. However - I'd suggest there's a distinction - of some sort - between a few paid men "lording" over a group with their own controlling teachings one must go by to "keep their name on the roll in good standing", vs. the Holy Spirit giving us things to share with each other, that is in fact (IMO), "teaching". Thus the question in the OP - what is teaching, do we all do it, then how/what does it look like? No, I personally don't want to be "lorded" over by a paid professional, and I don't typically just take in what everybody says without at least examining it for its soundness (as best I can tell at the time). But OTOH, I really don't believe I can say "Gary Amirault, J. Preston Eby, James Rhode, Charles Stanley et al have nothing to say that is good, helpful, teaching for me". I don't belong to an organized religious institution, and generally don't watch their shows on TV. However, the other night I flipped across a sermon, a teaching by Charles Stanley that was very good, helpful - I shared a link of it with someone I know is struggling and hurting, in hopes that it would help them.
Since we can't dismiss either what Jesus said to the disciples in the Gospels, or what Paul said to the ecclesia, then it seems there's "more to the story". I personally believe the scrips of "no man will need to teach you" etc., have specific contexts that isn't just a general "no one will ever have anything to say that we need to hear or will be helped by hearing/sharing with each other within the body" - (and I believe they also carry the final analysis of "God is the Ultimate Teacher, as every good and perfect gift comes from Him"- no matter where it appears to come from). IMO, those scrips take more, what's that fancy word, exegesis? :laugh: Still, I do believe the bottom line - as I said to begin with in dajo's thread - with all the things we hear/are taught, the final "say" is the Holy Spirit - as truth is revealed to us, our eyes are opened, we're nudged in our spirit by the Spirit that "something's wrong with that teaching, it doesn't quite add up - what do the scriptures have to say about that", etc. :2c:
I've always thought of the ideal 'church' as those meeting together (in homes and the like) and each person who has an insight to share, would share.. No paid overseers, etc. Or even if not paid, why would one person always have all the insight to share? I guess there would be the "testing of all things" in that no group should allow strange non-biblical 'teachings' to usurp the biblical.. I guess it takes the Spirit and also wisdom (which also is the Spirit!) And beginning with prayer would be key I'm sure.. :smile:
:thumbsup:
Marie glen. That's exactly the reason I always like AA meetings for church. Oh and the honesty! Always kinda made me wish I was an alcoholic. Lol
When teaching comes from a serving member of the body under the headship of Jesus in the Spirit, it edifies. No attention is drawn to the one teaching beyond the goodness of the word of God and the manifestation of His grace.
"He that speaks his own words seeks his own glory, He that speaks the words of the one who sent Him seeks the glory of the one who sent Him"
Glory!
Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts. Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged. Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
(Isa 6:5-9)
This process, wherein the potter places us upon the wheel and mars us until we are clay vessels fit for his use, humbled by the awareness of our selfishness, then exalted by the fire of His passion within us, and a calling by grace that transcends our sins as we "Go" aware that is only his will operating in us- not our righteousness; it is the process whereby we can become good stewards of His grace.
IMO, Just like at AA meetings and at these forums, there has to be someone that oversees or moderates or steps in when people do things they ought not at a meeting. Not better than anyone else or paid, just someone that's "been there" so to speak and knows when things are starting to go awry. With every group, there is almost always someone that wants to take control of it. The key is for the person "in charge" to see his role not as leader of all but servant to all for the good of the group. :2c:
Quote from: Colleen on March 16, 2013, 03:52:18 AM
Marie glen. That's exactly the reason I always like AA meetings for church. Oh and the honesty! Always kinda made me wish I was an alcoholic. Lol
:ghaha: me too!
Quote from: ded2daworld on March 16, 2013, 01:18:18 PM
IMO, Just like at AA meetings and at these forums, there has to be someone that oversees or moderates or steps in when people do things they ought not at a meeting. Not better than anyone else or paid, just someone that's "been there" so to speak and knows when things are starting to go awry. With every group, there is almost always someone that wants to take control of it. The key is for the person "in charge" to see his role not as leader of all but servant to all for the good of the group. :2c:
:goodpost: !
Quote from: Colleen on March 16, 2013, 03:52:18 AM
Marie glen. That's exactly the reason I always like AA meetings for church. Oh and the honesty! Always kinda made me wish I was an alcoholic. Lol
When I found myself in the rooms of AA, I found something I had been looking for all my life. I was with people who loved me just how I am. They didn't turn their back on me when I told my story and discussed my sin and short comings. They told me about progress, not perfection...and I seen people who were comfortable in their own skin. I had found a home.
When you are supposed to teach, it's given to you. You don't have to force your way in. The door is opened and closed by God. A teacher teaches from a place of humility rather than pride. It's not a I know...am wise and you need to listen. It's a gift you have for another, an extension of your experience and understanding.
Quote from: shawn on March 17, 2013, 04:19:56 AM
When you are supposed to teach, it's given to you. You don't have to force your way in. The door is opened and closed by God. A teacher teaches from a place of humility rather than pride. It's not a I know...am wise and you need to listen. It's a gift you have for another, an extension of your experience and understanding.
:thumbsup:
eaglesway posted this regarding teaching, in the grace in the garden thread.
IMO part of the idea is that we are, "breaking the bread of life" together "in the Spirit" as one. We don't need "clergy", "teachers", "leaders"- separate and above. We are "served" by the mature who are the humble among us and manifesting the grace of God- and we serve one another as we grow. The Holy Spirit is teaching us altogether through each other, as members of one body under one head- building up through the "effectual working of each individual part" as we "speak the truth in love". There are 5 chapters and one verse in the word, in particular, that to me give a more or less complete picture of this. Romans 12 (imo the most foundational), 1Corinthians 12-14, Ephesians 4, and the verse....
1 Peter 4:10 Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others, as faithful stewards of God's grace in its various forms.
Quote from: shawn on March 17, 2013, 04:19:56 AM
When you are supposed to teach, it's given to you. You don't have to force your way in. The door is opened and closed by God. A teacher teaches from a place of humility rather than pride. It's not a I know...am wise and you need to listen. It's a gift you have for another, an extension of your experience and understanding.
...perhaps..? don't forget how humans stoned all the prophets.. Even born again humans do not take new things, or things different from what they are used to thinking, easily :smile:
Prophets and teachers often must work from a different place ;o)
I've been reticent about responding to these posts. I think my philosophy regarding teaching is skewed. I've only met a few people who believe me when I mention it. I had meant to simply keep quiet and read the posts and move on. Somehow, today, it is different. This may not even be useful ... so, please know I am simply saying what I have found, and it is just my opinion based on my observations, and nothing more.
When I was younger I used to grow roses, or so I thought. When I first started I ordered the roses and read absolutely everything I could get my hands on regarding rose care and maintenance. When I finally started the rose garden I was armed with all sorts of information. Never prune your roses in the Spring; always prune your roses in the Spring. Never get their leaves wet; always spray their leaves. Never prune the roots in the fall; always prune the roots in fall. Always winter with layers; always use only one layer. Always fertilize in late winter; never fertilize in late winter. Always prune the first bud; never prune the first bud. Always remove the hips in Fall; always remove the hips in Spring. I knew so much about roses I became paralyzed. I simply planted them and was afraid to do much else except weed and water them. I found out something extraordinary: roses grow in spite of rosarians.
I have spent time at the front of the classroom. I have seen many others in the same boat. I have seen the prepared, and I have seen those who 'wing it'. I have seen really arrogant sorts badger classes, and I have seen the shy almost plead with students to learn. I've marked wonderful papers written by people who seemed to be sleeping during class, and have failed the brilliant whom I thought would have aced the course. I've been told it's all up to you when you teach. They are putty in your hands. Really not true IMO. I found out something extraordinary: students learn in spite of teachers.
I have looked at it from a bunch (rose allusion lol) of perspectives and come up with what I think happens. People tend to learn, it's how God created us. Try stopping a child from learning how to speak: I've met a lot of parents who wish they could undo it, but that's a different matter lol. I think the Holy Spirit is called a teacher because He knows how to lead you to the thing which will help you learn: which is sometimes Himself.
I think the problem with human agency is that after someone learns something, there is no shortage of people who are willing to take credit for having taught it to them. The term teacher is almost archaeological in concept. You find out what someone learned, and then you find the artifact you assume taught it to them.
I think most of use intuitively know that we were created to learn. When someone has problems learning things, we don't look for the agent which didn't teach them. We look for the thing preventing them from learning ie. a learning disability. I think the very use of that phrase shows we understand it is our nature to learn, and when someone isn't, there is something wrong.
I mean no disrespect to anyone in the teaching profession: this is just my :2c: .
VB, IMO, your post and some things I'd said earlier go together very well; :thumbsup: I agree, that's where the humility comes in, and recognizing and giving credit where credit is due - YHWH.
"paid men "lording" over a group with their own controlling teachings ... vs. the Holy Spirit giving us things to share with each other, that is in fact (IMO), "teaching".
the final analysis of "God is the Ultimate Teacher, as every good and perfect gift comes from Him"- no matter where it appears to come from [or who/what He uses to deliver it - remember Balaam's donkey? :)]
with all the things we hear/are taught [from others/teachers] , the final "say" is the Holy Spirit"
I agree with much of what has been said and really appreciate Jabcat's consistent and constant reminder that it is the Holy Spirit who teaches, who guides us into all truth. However, re: "paid men" ... "lording over" "There but for the grace of God go I"-- this phrase is not in the Scriptures, but a scripture that basically states the same thing is
1 Cor 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am
stated by Paul after he confesses in v 9 For I am least of the apostles, that I am not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
:iagree: amen humility I think is so important for unity among believers and for any of the gifts perhaps especially teaching but also learning I just realized, to be teachable. After all if one knew all, we'd be back to leaders! Most of the time in sharing, etc, I think as often as possible ideas should be "and" instead of "but" or "or". Does that make sense? :smile:
...and of course when it comes to teaching and teachers we should always be like the Bereans and search the Word, the ultimate (and only?) test.. :smile:
Quote from: marie glen on March 18, 2013, 02:04:50 AM
:iagree: amen humility I think is so important for unity among believers and for any of the gifts perhaps especially teaching but also learning I just realized, to be teachable. After all if one knew all, we'd be back to leaders! Most of the time in sharing, etc, I think as often as possible ideas should be "and" instead of "but" or "or". Does that make sense? :smile:
But it makes sense,
or or does it? :laugh:
Hi All,
I have always looked at myself as a learner and never a teacher. I never have felt comfortable with telling someone else what they should or should not do. I was reading all of the post and a thought came to mind, aren't we all teachers in a sense? Isn't everything we do and say, seen and heard by someone who may gain something from us? I agree that no one should get paid to lord anything over us concerning anything about God or the Bible.
I have come to see that every single one of us has something that another can learn from, even the ones that get paid to teach. I have learned from many different sources, many different denominations including God's creation around us, such as birds, ants, bees, and so forth.
So, isn't everyone of us a learner and a teacher?
CHB
YES! EXACTLY! Knowing God, it sometimes surprises me what or who he uses to teach me, but since he never smacks me upside the head and shouts in my ear, he has to use other things :Peace2:
:thumbsup: :punish:
CHB
C and ded :2thumbs:
I read the coolest thing this morning, a footnote in an old Scoffield Reference Bible. It's not exactly on teaching but i think it fits all the gifts, kind of the main element even.. It was about how Jesus as "the firstfruits of God" - on its Holy Day in the Spring, a single sheaf of wheat was waved in the air. And then 49 days later on Pentecost two loaves of bread were waved in the air. The note said before the pouring out of the Holy Spirit upon the believers @ Pentecost, the believers were still like individual grains of barley (in the sheaf) but after the sending of God's Spirit, the believers were like one loaf, no longer like individual grains. The conclusion was that it's the Holy Ghost which brings (causes) unity.
A secondary note was how there being leaven in the loaves, meant that during the 'church' age there is still (imperfection or) 'evil' (they called it) present in the body and bride (to be?) of Christ. As opposed to the Feast of Unleavened Bread which typified Jesus' purity.
Quote from: jabcat on March 18, 2013, 07:55:09 PM
C and ded :2thumbs:
I agree!! :smile: CHB, that was so right on! And Ded, :laughing7: !
Quote from: CHB on March 18, 2013, 06:24:45 PM
So, isn't everyone of us a learner and a teacher?
I'm gonna say no.
I think there is enough evidence amongst us that we all learn. I'm not sure about the everyone being a teacher. You may be right, it just seems too broad to me.
I can learn patience from watching a tree grow, or from seeing a cactus slowly inch by inch get lusher. But would I call the tree or the cactus a teacher? I don't know. I think you can learn some things from emulating other people. You might learn to become a better hockey player by watching video footage of other players, but does that make them teachers? Personally, I don't think so. Learning not to yell, by watching someone get censured for yelling, means you leaned from the example, but was the person receiving the punishment really a teacher? I don't really think so.
We can learn not to do things from examples of observing the ramifications incurred by others; we can learn to do other things by watching how certain behaviours elicit certain rewards. Does the person performing the act become a teacher? IMO no.
evryone who has the Holy Spirit in them has the capacity to teach. Personally tho, I think some have a special gift to teach.
There is one teacher, God. Everything we see and hear he uses to teach. The objects are not the teacher as the creation is not the creator. :Peace2:
Quote from: ded2daworld on March 19, 2013, 03:06:13 PM
There is one teacher, God. Everything we see and hear he uses to teach. The objects are not the teacher as the creation is not the creator. :Peace2:
Hi Ded,
You are right, glad you brought that up. There is only ONE main teacher and ONE main God, but Paul said there are MANY gods, so there must be MANY teachers. I think we are all teachers of many different things. In Job 12:7 it says But ask now the beast, and they SHALL TEACH THEE and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee. If you are learning something from whatever source, wouldn't that mean you are being taught? If you are being taught something wouldn't that make whatever you learned from a teacher? What makes one a teacher? Now you could say, there are good teachers and bad teachers, but aren't they still teachers.
Paul said in (1Cor. 12:29) Are all apostles? are all prophets? ARE ALL TEACHERS? Sounds like he is saying not everyone is a teacher but I think he meant not all were teachers of the New Covenant, or certain things such as pertained to what paul was referring to at that time. I don't think Paul meant that not everyone was a teacher but that not everyone taught the same things. We can all be teachers but we may not all teach the same things. There are many things that are discussed on this forum that I don't know much about and I imagine most can say this about at least one topic that has been discussed on here. Sorry to ramble on, this is just how I see these things.
CHB
:Chinscratch: hmmm, perhaps, it's kind of like, "are all apostles?" or maybe a better example, "are all healers?" Truth and the Spirit heals, so in a way, all are healers..? Or we could say, so to speak.. or in a sense..?? just my :2c: :smile:
You don't really think there are many Gods do you? :laughing7:
I was saying that there is one teacher but God uses everything to teach. Sometimes it's a human. Just like God uses doctors to heal, God is the great physician and he uses humans to do some doctoring. We all teach different things. Some teach music, some math some(like me) how to mess up, some Bible, some other spiritual things. I'm just saying it is God working through us. :Peace2:
Quote from: ded2daworld on March 19, 2013, 04:58:30 PM
You don't really think there are many Gods do you? :laughing7:
I was saying that there is one teacher but God uses everything to teach. Sometimes it's a human. Just like God uses doctors to heal, God is the great physician and he uses humans to do some doctoring. We all teach different things. Some teach music, some math some(like me) how to mess up, some Bible, some other spiritual things. I'm just saying it is God working through us. :Peace2:
I agree ded, :gimmefive:
I mess up more than I fix sometimes.
Than quit taking lessons from me :laugh:
Quote from: ded2daworld on March 19, 2013, 03:06:13 PM
There is one teacher, God. Everything we see and hear he uses to teach. The objects are not the teacher as the creation is not the creator. :Peace2:
Yea, I get that, it is the ultimate core truth, but practcally speaking, the word says there are these functions(not offices) identified as "teachers". Sometimes when we share we blur the lines about whether we are talking about universal applications of truth or breaking it down into the immediate reality.
I like to just stay in the language of scripture. God is the ultimate teacher, He teaches in many ways and all truth emenates from Him, and He has given certain gifts through the body of Christ, among them, "teachers". Yet at the same time, In 1 Cor., Paul says, "all may prophesy so that all may learn and be edified", teaching us that everyone in Christ has the capacity for inspired speech through the SPirit, and everyone should be listened to, and then their words weighed and discerned. After all, the more abscure members should receive more glory :o)
I think that the teaching Paul is mentioning ,
are the teachings as a gift of the Holy Spirit.
Is the teaching that could not be known unless the Holy Spirit
supernaturally gave the information.
Is the healing that could not have happened unless the Holy Spirit
supernaturally healed.
I believe the distinguishing characteristics of the gifts
of the Holy Spirit are that they are supernatural.
Hey Daj, bet you thought you'd never see this from me after one of your posts :laughing7: :iagree:
I agree also. IMO what the Holy Spirit does is supernatural, and the gifts of the Spirit are supernatural manifestations, and everyone who has the Holy SPirit in them has resident within them certain gifts, and also the potential to manifest any gift, should the need arise by the grace of God and in His will.
Quote from: ded2daworld on March 19, 2013, 06:20:43 PM
Than quit taking lessons from me :laugh:
Ded,
I just reread my post and I pray you didn't think I was agreeing with what you said about you messing up. I was agreeing with everything else you said and was saying I mess up a lot. Sorry if what I said came across like that.
See, this post is proof I am a mess up. Be patient God isn't finished with me yet. :Peace2:
CHB
I knew that. My laughing :laugh: whatever is signifying I'm joking. :Peace2:
Hey Daj, bet you thought you'd never see this from me after one of your posts
Ded if this isn't proof of supernatural teaching I don't know what is. :laugh: