Tentmaker Forum

Brothers and Sisters,
I have a question for you all.  My wife and I were having a discussion about suffering in the world this morning.  You see my wife is a Deist, and doesn't believe in Jesus Christ because she said too much suffering goes on in the world, and where is God in all of this?  I tried to explain that suffering in the world is our fault, and a result of our free will but she said God should have never created us in the first place since he knew we would cause all of this suffering.
Also, she asked why some people get saved for tragedy and others don't.  I didn't really know what to say just because I'm not totally sure God does intervene to save people in auto accidents, plane crashes, etc.  She pointed to passage in Matthew where Jesus calms the storm while they were out on the boat as proof that God does intervene in tragedy. 

I was hoping I could get some more solid answers from the collective wisdom of you all.  I appreciate any responses.

Wisdom is a great gift of God.

But without understanding you can can never appropriate it.

Your wife, and many people of the world, seek to know the deep things of God and that starts with faith.

hi there Johnnycatholic12,

My husband would agree with your wife so you're not alone.
I believe that if God knew evil would come and He created it therefore there must be a purpose to it.  We cannot possibly know with our little minds what that purpose is and i believe it is there, otherwise your wife is right, this world doesn't make sense.

Godbless
Nancy

In light of The True Gospel of Universal Reconciliation (or at the very least, the non-existence of Eternal Damnation)

You have been afforded an opportunity in witness.  She is a Deist already, Hell hath no fury at all in her beliefs.  She'll be much more inclined to see the logic in UR.

As for suffering, I often say this, and perhaps you could do some research on it.

"God made everything Good, he intends to make everything Glorious."

"In the span of deathless infinity, all the finite evils of even a trillion years will be but a pixel in the universe - forgettable, and insignificant compared to the long ages of glory ahead."

willieH: Hi JohnnyC...  :cloud9:

Quote from: JohnnyCatholic12 on October 11, 2010, 03:54:38 PM
Brothers and Sisters,
I have a question for you all.  My wife and I were having a discussion about suffering in the world this morning.  You see my wife is a Deist, and doesn't believe in Jesus Christ because she said too much suffering goes on in the world, and where is God in all of this?

GOD is PRESENT in ALL THINGS, brother, for He is about working ALL THINGS -- Eph 1:11 -- If He were not PRESENT in them, how may He be WORKING them?  :dontknow:

There are many lessons within suffering, that teach us that the opposite condition in EVERY instance of it, is GOOD... 

Time is the FIRE which encases us in it's SUFFERING as we travel, and are TRIED within it -- Mark 9:49 -- Rev 3:18

As we journey in TIME... we begin with all things NEW... we have the entirety of LIFE before us, we are surrounded by our loved ones, we are youthful, we are filled with energy, we have suffered NOTHING...

But as TIME unfolds... we LOSE all these things to it.  Our loved ones, one by one are taken away, our youth is taken away, our energy is taken away, the entirety of LIFE dissapates to NOTHING... concluding in the LOSS of EVERYTHING we began with.

Suffering is the MANIFESTATION of EVIL's part in the KNOWLEDGE of our circumstances... be it mental, spiritual or physical... it OPPOSES that which SHOULD BE... LIFE should exist not death, ...no?  HAPPINESS should exist, not sorrow, no?  HEALTH not disease, no?  FULFULLMENT not emptiness, ...no?

If there were no "violations or oppositions" of GOOD, how might it be observed?  Everything that exists, has OPPOSITION, which indicates it.

Up has down, ...East has West, ...Nothing has Something, ...High has Low, ...Short has Long, ...Rough has Smooth...  and if we backtrack, in this short list, ...how may we determine UP if there is no "DOWN"?  Or EAST if there is no WEST?

How might one KNOW "hunger", if one is continually FED?  How might one KNOW "poverty" if one is continually RICH, never in the NEED that poverty establishes?

One does not "KNOW" something, until one has EXPERIENCED it... You can read a 1000 or a million books about "how to drive a car", but until you actually get behind the wheel, you really do NOT KNOW how to "drive" that car.

Suffering is a part of the WORD for the WORD of YHVH contains the notations of SUFFERING.

It is the DIVINE process of PERFECTION -- Heb 2:10 -- without it, we are INCOMPLETE.  And the GOOD which is GOD's Glory, unKNOWN to us.  :idea2:

Quote from: JohnnyCatholic12 on October 11, 2010, 03:54:38 PMI tried to explain that suffering in the world is our fault, and a result of our free will but she said God should have never created us in the first place since he knew we would cause all of this suffering.

"Free will" is not a subject which is allowed for discussion here @ Tentmaker.

That said... it is NOT "our fault" that suffering is present... GOD has concluded ALL in UNBELIEF -- Rom 11:32 -- Of HIS decision -- FAITH is BELIEF in the WORD as truth -- John 14:6 -- John 3:16  -- WHATSOEVER is NOT of FAITH is SIN -- Rom 14:23 -- SIN occurs in each of us due to UNBELIEF... therefore it cannot be truly said that it is "OUR FAULT" that we SIN...

She poses a good arguement, if SUFFERING has no point or value (which is how she sees it at present)... however suffering DOES indeed have GREAT VALUE... in that it INDICATES that which is [eternally] GOOD by its encumbering [and temporal] presence!

If one is (TEMPORARILY), LONELY... it is a deep SUFFERING for lack of companionship... and the lack of the fulfillments that (PERMANENT) companionship brings to the heart...

But LONELINESS, once it has ended, ...then serves as an indicator of the GOOD that is found in the removal of that (temporal) LONELINESS by the advent of COMPANIONSHIP... and that (permanent) COMPANIONSHIP is extremely enhanced by the previous "knowledge (via the experience) of LONELINESS"...  :dontknow:

Quote from: JohnnyCatholic12 on October 11, 2010, 03:54:38 PMAlso, she asked why some people get saved for tragedy and others don't.

It is impossible to make such a conclusion without TOTAL knowledge of the one observed. 

That YOU view another in this moment or that, does not indicate that you have observed this person in their EVERY MOMENT, in which "tragedy" easily and LIKELY exists for them.

By looking at a MAN in line at McDonald's (why would you eat there?  :mshock: ...Just kidn!  :laughing7:)... how may you determine that by the BMW he drove up in, and the TAILORED SUIT he is wearing, along with the $100 bill he uses to pay for his burger & fries,  ...that "TRAGEDY" is not present in his circumstances, or that he has been somehow, SPARED "tragedy"? 

He might have gotten his heart broken last week cuz his wife served him divorce papers?  ...or is coming from a doctors visit which has diagnosed him with TERMINAL CANCER? ...or finally stopped crying for a time, because HIS MOTHER DIED 2 days ago, ...or that the "BMW" is up for REPOSSESSION? ...or that his $100K per year JOB has just ENDED and he figured he be thrifty with his remaining money by eating at McPups?   :dontknow:

Quote from: JohnnyCatholic12 on October 11, 2010, 03:54:38 PMI didn't really know what to say just because I'm not totally sure God does intervene to save people in auto accidents, plane crashes, etc.  She pointed to passage in Matthew where Jesus calms the storm while they were out on the boat as proof that God does intervene in tragedy.

Actually... the passage in Matthew doesn't indicate any TRAGEDY at all... if anything, the "tragedy" is the lack of FAITH of those who were in the BODILY presence of the SON of GOD!  Yes, they were FEARFUL, but there is nothing to indicate that a "TRAGEDY" was about to take place...

(You are welcome to disagree, but) In my observation, ...GOD does not "intervene" in anything.  He is about manifesting HIS DIVINE AGENDA which is come forth from HIS WORD, and has already indicated ALL THINGS which partake of that agenda -- Isaiah 46:10

If a "miracle" occurs in our observance... then it appears so in OUR EYES, but the truth is that it was already in and part of the DECLARATION of "things that are NOT yet DONE" (which is EVERYTHING)... that it occur. 

We are "learners" of that AGENDA... and are, in faith, to arrive at acceptance of it, regardless of what it contains -- Phil 4:11 

We are to Pray for that which we would desire, but always according to the WILL of the ONE which has outlined that agenda, and accept the outcome of it, irregardless to the "outcome" as potentially not in line with our "request"... as did JESUS -- Luke 22:42 

Quote from: JohnnyCatholic12 on October 11, 2010, 03:54:38 PMI was hoping I could get some more solid answers from the collective wisdom of you all.  I appreciate any responses.

I sincerely hope I have given you some things to consider in this response, and wish you God's leading in your life and concerning your wife...  :HeartThrob:

:Peace:

Only affliction can work compassion.

Quote from: JohnnyCatholic12 on October 11, 2010, 03:54:38 PM
Brothers and Sisters,
I have a question for you all.  My wife and I were having a discussion about suffering in the world this morning.  You see my wife is a Deist, and doesn't believe in Jesus Christ because she said too much suffering goes on in the world, and where is God in all of this?  I tried to explain that suffering in the world is our fault, and a result of our free will but she said God should have never created us in the first place since he knew we would cause all of this suffering.
Also, she asked why some people get saved for tragedy and others don't.  I didn't really know what to say just because I'm not totally sure God does intervene to save people in auto accidents, plane crashes, etc.  She pointed to passage in Matthew where Jesus calms the storm while they were out on the boat as proof that God does intervene in tragedy. 

I was hoping I could get some more solid answers from the collective wisdom of you all.  I appreciate any responses.

Despite the suffering we have brought upon ourselves as individuals and as a race God in his love for us will restore us and help us learn the valuable lessons of life that evil is unprofitable, each of us are working out our own salvation with trembling and fear, others have to go through great pain and chastisments until they realize that the fruit of evil is unprofitable.

Also God does intervene in tragedy, but it takes a man to stand in the gap between life and death, to intercede and call forth Gods angels to protect people from evil. Due to the complexity of life it is impossible to explain every detail. But some reasons why God cannot work as much as he wants is because people have forsaken his commandments and sin seperates him from us.

Also God can also intervene after tragedy, and bring good out of evil ,life out of death, for he has the keys of death hell and the grave and also has the power to rise men from the grave and cast them down again.

I posted a link about this the other day.

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8752.0

Quote from: wwillieH on October 13, 2010, 11:29:26 PM
"Free will" is not a subject which is allowed for discussion here @ Tentmaker.

That said... it is NOT "our fault" that suffering is present... GOD has concluded ALL in UNBELIEF -- Rom 11:32

:bigGrin:

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/FreeMoralAgent-Eby.html

willieH: Hi Tank...  :happygrin:

Quote from: thinktank on October 14, 2010, 12:51:24 AM
Also God does intervene in tragedy, but it takes a man to stand in the gap between life and death, to intercede and call forth Gods angels to protect people from evil.

I disagree, ...if God "intervenes" in one tragedy and not another, ...or "protect" one from evil and not another, ...He is become a respecter of persons... which He is NOT... (partial to one and not another)

Quote from: thinktank on October 14, 2010, 12:51:24 AMBut some reasons why God cannot work as much as he wants is because people have forsaken his commandments and sin seperates him from us.

Sorry, but disagree with this as well... "God cannot work as much as He wants"?  Please... you have the SINNER inhibiting the desire as well as the WORK of the ALMIGHTY...   :mshock:

God created ALL men, KNOWING all they would do... and so no man "inhibits" GOD, for GOD foreknew everything they would do, as well as everything HE would do... in His UNCHANGING agenda... which was DECLARED in totality, before even one man, did ANYTHING -- Isaiah 46:10

Men forsake His commandments, simply because He has CONCLUDED them ALL in UNBELIEF -- Rom 11:32

Quote from: thinktank on October 14, 2010, 12:51:24 AMAlso God can also intervene after tragedy, and bring good out of evil ,life out of death, for he has the keys of death hell and the grave and

GOD does not "intervene", He WORKS all things according to HIS WILL which is, was and always will be UNCHANGING -- Eph 1:11 -- Mal 3:6

If it appears to any given MAN (such as yourself), that He has "intervened", it is just a LIMITED finite vision of an INFINITE "doing"... which had already been DECLARED as it was manifest, BEFORE it was manifest...  :dontknow:

Quote from: thinktank on October 14, 2010, 12:51:24 AMalso has the power to rise men from the grave and cast them down again.

So say you... show the Scripture that says this...

Where does the Scripture SAY -- "He shall them men DOWN AGAIN to the grave?  :dunno:

willieH: Hi James... :hithere:

Quote from: jabcat on October 14, 2010, 02:45:41 AM

Quote from: wwillieH on October 13, 2010, 11:29:26 PM
"Free will" is not a subject which is allowed for discussion here @ Tentmaker.

That said... it is NOT "our fault" that suffering is present... GOD has concluded ALL in UNBELIEF -- Rom 11:32

:bigGrin:

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/FreeMoralAgent-Eby.html

:laughing7:  Without ever reading this by Eby... I have stated the very same things... almost to the letter... thanks for posting this James...  :thumbsup:

Daniel and the Lion's den.

Daniel's friends in the furnace.

Several Legions of angels that could be called down by Christ to defend him.

Mary and Joseph warned by an angel to flee - a warning is a form of protection, especially if heeded.

Rebuking the devourer = Protection.

Israel protected multiple times by God in their wars.

God killing the Egyptian soldiers in the sea of reeds/red sea.

God confusing armies into killing each other.

Peter being rescued by an angel while in prison...

Paul was rescued several times if I recall correctly...

The list goes on of God intervening to protect one group, against another, as well as individuals.

Depends on what you believe in.  I am much more Calvinist in my belief system (gasp I know).  I believe in predestination.  I believe God is sovereign.  I don't believe any of this took God by surprise.  So, God foreknew of the suffering and created us anyhow.  God doesn't make mistakes.  God loves agape.  Therefore, there is a greater purpose, a holy purpose in suffering.  I can say suffering in my own life has brought me revelation, growth and humility.  I know it has served a significant and wonderful purpose in my own life.

From a UR perspective suffering makes complete sense.  Suffering=refining fire in the life of a believer.  Suffering brings contrast revelation.  Without suffering we do not know peace and joy.  Without darkness we do not understand light.  Suffering is often the only teacher some people listen to.  Suffering gives one appreciation for the perfect joy in Christ.  With the UR belief all suffering is of a temporal nature and will be brought into perfect perspective when we all live with Christ someday.  As Zender would say, who is going to care how much they suffered in this short life when they are with Christ for eternity.  Everyone will know their role, why they suffered and the suffering will be no more.  I doubt you will have anyone complaining.

Quote from: shawn on October 14, 2010, 06:00:47 AM
Depends on what you believe in.  I am much more Calvinist in my belief system (gasp I know).  I believe in predestination.  I believe God is sovereign.  I don't believe any of this took God by surprise.  So, God foreknew of the suffering and created us anyhow.  God doesn't make mistakes.  God loves agape.  Therefore, there is a greater purpose, a holy purpose in suffering.  I can say suffering in my own life has brought me revelation, growth and humility.  I know it has served a significant and wonderful purpose in my own life.

From a UR perspective suffering makes complete sense.  Suffering=refining fire in the life of a believer.  Suffering brings contrast revelation.  Without suffering we do not know peace and joy.  Without darkness we do not understand light.  Suffering is often the only teacher some people listen to.  Suffering gives one appreciation for the perfect joy in Christ.  With the UR belief all suffering is of a temporal nature and will be brought into perfect perspective when we all live with Christ someday.  As Zender would say, who is going to care how much they suffered in this short life when they are with Christ for eternity.  Everyone will know their role, why they suffered and the suffering will be no more.  I doubt you will have anyone complaining.

:thumbsup:...and Paul said the troubles we have here aren't worthy of comparison to the glory to come [paraphrase]

you might enjoy this   http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8111.msg106409#msg106409

Quote from: Lefein on October 14, 2010, 03:49:01 AM
Daniel and the Lion's den.

Daniel's friends in the furnace.

Several Legions of angels that could be called down by Christ to defend him.

Mary and Joseph warned by an angel to flee - a warning is a form of protection, especially if heeded.

Rebuking the devourer = Protection.

Israel protected multiple times by God in their wars.

God killing the Egyptian soldiers in the sea of reeds/red sea.

God confusing armies into killing each other.

Peter being rescued by an angel while in prison...

Paul was rescued several times if I recall correctly...

The list goes on of God intervening to protect one group, against another, as well as individuals.

Lefein, I don't want to rush to Willie's defence but I think he meant that when God does intervene, it was already destined to be so as God has declared the beginning from the end. So when God intervenes, it is His purpose and when He doesn't, it is also His purpose. Millions of people praying for days wouldn't change that because God does everything according to His will.
Willie, correct me if I'm mistaken and Lefein sorry if that's not what you meant.

My intent was to show that God does (as far as mortal sight is concerned) intervene in some individual's lives, but not in others, or atleast in the same way.

Peter was rescued from prison, while Bob down the street...might not, or is not.

If that makes sense.

Yet I'll remind the world - prayer is important, ask, seek, knock, and you shall receive.

There are reasons for suffering given in Scripture, lot of it in Hebrews.  Use a concordance and meditiate on what is written.  Why should we be given more when we haven't used what we have?

The Infinite expressed in and through the finite is a reason for suffering.

Quote from: Quaesitor on October 14, 2010, 06:21:09 AM

Quote from: Lefein on October 14, 2010, 03:49:01 AM
Daniel and the Lion's den.

Daniel's friends in the furnace.

Several Legions of angels that could be called down by Christ to defend him.

Mary and Joseph warned by an angel to flee - a warning is a form of protection, especially if heeded.

Rebuking the devourer = Protection.

Israel protected multiple times by God in their wars.

God killing the Egyptian soldiers in the sea of reeds/red sea.

God confusing armies into killing each other.

Peter being rescued by an angel while in prison...

Paul was rescued several times if I recall correctly...

The list goes on of God intervening to protect one group, against another, as well as individuals.

Lefein, I don't want to rush to Willie's defence but I think he meant that when God does intervene, it was already destined to be so as God has declared the beginning from the end. So when God intervenes, it is His purpose and when He doesn't, it is also His purpose. Millions of people praying for days wouldn't change that because God does everything according to His will.
Willie, correct me if I'm mistaken and Lefein sorry if that's not what you meant.

I'm not saying I disagree with that.  But, where is the power of prayer in all of that?

Hi there;
Is 45;5-7 " I am Yahweh and there is none else, there is no God besides Me, I gird you though you have not known Me; that men may get to know from the rising of the sun and from the west that there is none besides Me , I am Yahweh and there is none else: forming light and creating darkness, making prosperity and creating misfortune, I Yahweh who does all these."

Rom 9;14-16 " What then shall we say? Is there injustice with God? Far be it ! For to Moses He said,
' I will have mercy upon whoever I am having mercy, and I will have compassion upon whoever I am having compassion.'
Hence it is not of him that wishes nor of him that runs, but of the mercy-showing God."

Rom 9;20-23 " O man! who are you that is answering again to God? Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it
' Why did you make me like this?'
Or has not the potter a right over the clay to make out of the same lump some into a vessel for honour and some for dishonour? And if God, wishing to show His anger and to make known His power, bare in much patience with vessels of anger already fitted for destruction, in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy which He prepared beforehand for glory, whom He also called, even us not only from among the Jews, but also from among the nations."

* I personally know His mercy to still be here today and to get to know the truth because of His provision and not my self-righteous effort. These scriptures are there to reinforce that He is showing equality to all mankind, but has some people chosen to play particular roles in the drama of life. Those roles help to show what is useful to others and what is purely for personal gain no matter what the cost. Seems that that is part of the training of getting to know right from wrong.
* I  know that mercy because I was unconsciously  driving a car that smashed into a brick wall at top speed and all that was written off was the car, not me. I should have died yet I did not. I had no say in any of that. I did not come to realize the significance until 10 years later when I was trying to be super spiritual in my own attempts. Fortunately His mercy covered my ridiculous self-righteousness and His mercy has become so deep that I feel encouraged to press on regardless of what may be happening around me. He actually knows what to do and when to do it. Awesome.

Prayer seems to work by aligning me to God's Will and not the other way around.
"Thy Will be done on earth as it is in heaven."
Those words are our recognition and affirmation of His Sovereignty.


Joshua 10;
14 And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel.

Quote from: shawn on October 14, 2010, 08:12:50 AM

Quote from: Quaesitor on October 14, 2010, 06:21:09 AM

Quote from: Lefein on October 14, 2010, 03:49:01 AM
Daniel and the Lion's den.

Daniel's friends in the furnace.

Several Legions of angels that could be called down by Christ to defend him.

Mary and Joseph warned by an angel to flee - a warning is a form of protection, especially if heeded.

Rebuking the devourer = Protection.

Israel protected multiple times by God in their wars.

God killing the Egyptian soldiers in the sea of reeds/red sea.

God confusing armies into killing each other.

Peter being rescued by an angel while in prison...

Paul was rescued several times if I recall correctly...

The list goes on of God intervening to protect one group, against another, as well as individuals.

Lefein, I don't want to rush to Willie's defence but I think he meant that when God does intervene, it was already destined to be so as God has declared the beginning from the end. So when God intervenes, it is His purpose and when He doesn't, it is also His purpose. Millions of people praying for days wouldn't change that because God does everything according to His will.
Willie, correct me if I'm mistaken and Lefein sorry if that's not what you meant.

I'm not saying I disagree with that.  But, where is the power of prayer in all of that?

Prayers change our own heart and bring forth offerings of good odors to God.

My list was just examples in general of God's intervention"esque" type work.

However, if it is the power of prayer that is concerned.  Israel often supplicated and received mercy after their sins.

One of the main themes of every prophet; "Repent!  The enemy is at your gate!"

To which Israel either submitted, and did rightly, repenting to the Lord saying "We have sinned!" (that is a form of prayer), and so the Lord's wrath left them.

I've been reading Jonah, and doing a small study (which, though it is a forbidden subject I think it has alot to say about Free-will/God's Plan, and omniscience) and in it Jonah prayed to God from the belly of the fish and was released after repenting.

Act 12:5  Peter therefore was kept in prison: but prayer was made without ceasing of the church unto God for him.

Spoiler alert; he gets rescued by an angel. :p

Quote from: Lefein on October 14, 2010, 06:58:11 AM
My intent was to show that God does (as far as mortal sight is concerned) intervene in some individual's lives, but not in others, or atleast in the same way.

Peter was rescued from prison, while Bob down the street...might not, or is not.

If that makes sense.

Yet I'll remind the world - prayer is important, ask, seek, knock, and you shall receive.

:thumbsup:

Matthew 21:22
If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

Quote from: LefeinAct 12:5  Peter therefore was kept in prison: but prayer was made without ceasing of the church unto God for him.

Spoiler alert; he gets rescued by an angel. :p

The funny thing about that story is that when their prayers are answered and Peter shows up at their door, the woman who sees him goes screaming to the rest that Peter is outside, and they don't believe her, so he's left standing on the porch.
Even those who have enough faith to pray are often astonished when it works. :laughing7:


13And as Peter knocked at the door of the gate, a damsel came to hearken, named Rhoda.

14And when she knew Peter's voice, she opened not the gate for gladness, but ran in, and told how Peter stood before the gate.

15And they said unto her, Thou art mad. But she constantly affirmed that it was even so. Then said they, It is his angel.

16But Peter continued knocking: and when they had opened the door, and saw him, they were astonished.
--Acts 12

Joshua 10:

14; And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel.

God changes not; prayer changes us.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 14, 2010, 06:48:08 PM




Joshua 10:

14; And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel.

God changes not; prayer changes us.

That was the day God caused the sun to stand still in the sky to allow Joshua more daylight for his battle.  So, I might not be able to get the sun to stand still with prayer, but I'm told the mountain will move for a believer.

Amen, the mountain will move if we repent (TURN)


One of the main themes of every prophet; "Repent!  The enemy is at your gate!"

To which Israel either submitted, and did rightly, repenting to the Lord saying "We have sinned!" (that is a form of prayer), and so the Lord's wrath left them.

I've been reading Jonah, and doing a small study (which, though it is a forbidden subject I think it has alot to say about Free-will/God's Plan, and omniscience) and in it Jonah prayed to God from the belly of the fish and was released after repenting.



Revelation 1:12
And I turn about to look for the voice which spoke with me. And, turning about, I perceived seven golden lampstands,

If you cannot get  the sun to stand still then how would one reconcile:
Matthew 21:22
If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

He gives the desire of the heart, that is, what we desire is His desire.
For we do not even know WHAT to pray for.

We see on the prayer boards that people are asking for specific things.

Jesus asks those he will cure, What do you want?  He makes them voice their requests.

This is what builds our faith.

Prayer is conversation.

I feel a sense of grief in my heart when prayer is thought of as more or less, talking to the air that doesn't affect God or his plans.

It is not to say, that God changes, or that he isn't omniscient.  I only mean that God is my Father, and I'd feel quite unloved if my father never bent his ear to my voice even in the little things that concern my life.

Me; "Lord, I know you have a purpose in me being sick...but could you heal me a little quicker than two weeks?  I have a very important party I'd like to go to in a few days..."
God; "Shut up, I do what I want, my plans say two weeks, and that's that!"
Me; "Yes Father..."

Perhaps an exaggerated example, but it gets my point across, I hope.

Even if his plans involved something better after the two weeks, it would have been a very hurtful conversation, if indeed it could be called a conversation at all.  Conversations are productive...it hurts when Heaven feels like an iron dome, it'd be even worse if God's ears where for what would be tantamount to all intents and purposes, deaf to my intercessions.

Quote from: Lefein on October 14, 2010, 07:58:35 PM
Prayer is conversation.

I feel a sense of grief in my heart when prayer is thought of as more or less, talking to the air that doesn't affect God or his plans.
.....
Me; "Lord, I know you have a purpose in me being sick...but could you heal me a little quicker than two weeks?  I have a very important party I'd like to go to in a few days..."
God; "Shut up, I do what I want, my plans say two weeks, and that's that!"
Me; "Yes Father..."

IMO that's exactly how it is.
God does or does not change His plans. Even if He changes His plan once in every 9999999999999 prayers He can no longer claim He never changes (plans)
Ofcourse it's possible that your party-prayer was already part of the plan.
But even in that case the plan didn't change.

Moses prayed for forgiveness and God said ask this of Me no more.

Intercession, again, bridges the Will of God's to ours.

I'll bow, perhaps this once, to exaggerated examples so prevalent lately and repeat a worldly prayer:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-4AheUl6ls
...at least she waited till 3.

My example was not out of reality, it was hypothetical - just to clarify.

As it stands though, the idea that my Father doesn't listen to me, or see my thoughts as important enough to "acknowledge" (even in all of his wisdom, he is first and foremost The Father) is a stab in the chest...to be blunt about it.

Is our relationship with God, of which communication is the keystone to every relationship; one sided, and unrequited?

Where does the line between "the wiser course" and "my way or nothing" occur?

Wives I am sure, would feel quite hurt if their opinion was...essentially worthless to their husband.

In Christ, We are All of One Spirit.

And another thought comes to mind.

I already know, and have heard, and agree; that prayer changes us, not God.

But if it is God's will that we change...and God will have his way that begs the question.

"Why pray?  We'll change anyway."

Prayer I've already said is a conversation, and someone who loves God will talk to him regardless...But I still feel that if the conversation is essentially talking to air, for God heeds us not, and our thoughts are tantamount to worthless in his ears...

Where is that God who is Love?  If prayer is so powerless to touch his heart.

It is not His heart that needs to be touched.
When we walk in the Lambs Book according to His Script, our life becomes a living prayer in constant contact with the Divine Will of God.

Quote from: Lefein on October 14, 2010, 08:35:12 PM
My example was not out of reality, it was hypothetical - just to clarify.

As it stands though, the idea that my Father doesn't listen to me, or see my thoughts as important enough to "acknowledge" (even in all of his wisdom, he is first and foremost The Father) is a stab in the chest...to be blunt about it.

Is our relationship with God, of which communication is the keystone to every relationship; one sided, and unrequited?

Where does the line between "the wiser course" and "my way or nothing" occur?

Wives I am sure, would feel quite hurt if their opinion was...essentially worthless to their husband.

23And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

24Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

25That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

26And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.
--Gen 18


..and he was called a friend of God.[James 2]

A very good find Molly.

Never let any man take away the power of prayer from you, friend or foe, cast their advice to the dust, for it is of Satan, after all what are you if you cannot communicate to your God?

Quote from: Quaesitor on October 14, 2010, 06:21:09 AM

Quote from: Lefein on October 14, 2010, 03:49:01 AM
Daniel and the Lion's den.

Daniel's friends in the furnace.

Several Legions of angels that could be called down by Christ to defend him.

Mary and Joseph warned by an angel to flee - a warning is a form of protection, especially if heeded.

Rebuking the devourer = Protection.

Israel protected multiple times by God in their wars.

God killing the Egyptian soldiers in the sea of reeds/red sea.

God confusing armies into killing each other.

Peter being rescued by an angel while in prison...

Paul was rescued several times if I recall correctly...

The list goes on of God intervening to protect one group, against another, as well as individuals.

Not ONE of these events was UNDECLARED by the WORD of YHVH ...BEFORE... it was manifest in this world -- Isaiah 46:10 

The "things not yet DONE" was... EVERYTHING... therefore, all things which are (eventually) "DONE" are manifest to the DETAIL, according to the DECLARATION of the WORD of YHVH, ...which PRECEEDED each "thing, which ended up being, ...done"  :laughing7:

Quote from: Quaesitor on October 14, 2010, 06:21:09 AMLefein, I don't want to rush to Willie's defence but I think he meant that when God does intervene, it was already destined to be so as God has declared the beginning from the end. So when God intervenes, it is His purpose and when He doesn't, it is also His purpose. Millions of people praying for days wouldn't change that because God does everything according to His will.
Willie, correct me if I'm mistaken and Lefein sorry if that's not what you meant.

That is EXACTLY what I meant, Q!

GOD does not need to be partial to any given one of His "WORDS" and not another... EACH of His "WORDS" are equally important TO HIM...

In illustration ----> We are ALL just little individual "writings" of HIS WORD, for everything that IS,  ...emerges FROM His WORD -- John 1:3 -- and said "WORD" ----> contains the DIVINE KNOWLEDGE of GOOD >>>and<<< EVIL...  :dontknow:

Quote from: Molly on October 14, 2010, 09:04:40 PM

Quote from: Lefein on October 14, 2010, 08:35:12 PM
My example was not out of reality, it was hypothetical - just to clarify.

As it stands though, the idea that my Father doesn't listen to me, or see my thoughts as important enough to "acknowledge" (even in all of his wisdom, he is first and foremost The Father) is a stab in the chest...to be blunt about it.

Is our relationship with God, of which communication is the keystone to every relationship; one sided, and unrequited?

Where does the line between "the wiser course" and "my way or nothing" occur?

Wives I am sure, would feel quite hurt if their opinion was...essentially worthless to their husband.

23And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

24Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

25That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

26And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.
--Gen 18


..and he was called a friend of God.[James 2]

Well...  :scratchhead:

The question noted, you percieve as "of Abraham", ...WAS and IS (and ALWAYS WILL BE) ...IN, and OF, the WORD of God which is UNCHANGING and ETERNAL...

So these "words" within the "question" asked, were NOT "OF ABRAHAM" even though Abraham was the vessel speaking them...

They ARE ...OF... the WORD of GOD...

The WORD had already DECLARED (as a "thing yet to be DONE") ...that the man, "Abraham" would ask this question... so, he DID...  :dontknow:

:JCThink:  btw... There was NOT (within the DECLARATION of YHVH), ..."50 righteous" in the city...  :dontknow:  

So the city was NOT "SPARED"...  :mnah:

QuoteThere was NOT (within the DECLARATION of YHVH), ..."50 righteous" in the city...   

So the city was NOT "SPARED"... 

Yes, I believe Abraham negotiated God down to sparing the city for 10 righteous men--which couldn't be found at the time--hence my quest to find 10 righteous men today.

Nevermind. :happygrin:

The point willieH of what Molly (and I) are saying, if I am correct in saying this Molly and if not do correct me; is that God is not a <insert explicative> who doesn't listen to his own children, but only cares about what he wants to do.

And yes, I am indeed taking into account all of God's infinite wisdom, and benevolence, and all those pat-answers that say "God's way is best"...I'm just trying to make a point with what limited ability English can provide to convey the sentiment.

Quote from: Lefein on October 15, 2010, 12:26:09 AM
The point willieH of what Molly (and I) are saying, if I am correct in saying this Molly and if not do correct me; is that God is not a <insert explicative> who doesn't listen to his own children, but only cares about what he wants to do.

And yes, I am indeed taking into account all of God's infinite wisdom, and benevolence, and all those pat-answers that say "God's way is best"...I'm just trying to make a point with what limited ability English can provide to convey the sentiment.

What GOD wants is all that matters, Lefein.

Concerning ourselves with what "we want", is based in selfishness...  CHRIST was never concerned about His desires FIRST, rather, about FULFILLING the will of the FATHER.

"Listening" is the enjoining of oneself to the River [water] of LIFE...

If we are "listening" to Him (which is LIFE), then automatically, He is "listening" to us (BY giving LIFE to our requests)...  for the prayer of FAITH (which is listening first, then asking/speaking) ...is that which avails spiritual profit -- James 5:16

A "righteous man" is one that is and has been "LISTENING" to YHVH... for it is already DECLARED that the "righteous" listen, as his/her way is FOREORDAINED (predetermined) -- Eph 2:11

:Peace:

WillieH; You missed my whole point, again.

Quote from: Lefein on October 15, 2010, 01:02:24 AM
WillieH; You missed my whole point, again.

:JCThink:  ...seems we both have that problem with one another...   :declare:

 :cloud9: ALL men seek after their own [things] and not the things which be of Christ......which is why we know not what we should pray, and which is why the HG does the works. My  :2c: Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on October 15, 2010, 04:31:10 AM
:cloud9: ALL men seek after their own [things] and not the things which be of Christ......which is why we know not what we should pray, and which is why the HG does the works. My  :2c: Blessings....

all men seek after their own things.

But, I don't see the problem with that--simply because it is all about building trust and relationship.  A two year old is going to more selfish than a 30 year old, and a 30 year old more self centered than a 60 year old.  This is not to say we will stay a spiritual 2 year old forever.  But, we start out at the bottom rung of the ladder and as everyone who exhorts a 2 year old to share knows, it's one step at a time.

Meanwhile, the foundation is being built--he is faithful and true to his word.


10For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

11If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

12Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?

13If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

--Luke 11

Hey JohnnyC  :smile:
I agree with you that it is largely our "free will" that causes suffering in the world (while under the control and sovereignty of God) and I believe the reason for this suffering is because we have to know what it is like to live without the rule of God in our lives so that we will all desire to live under the rule of God and eventually submit to His good and holy will which brings life. When we all see and realize how our own selfish living brings death and destruction to ourselves and others then eventually all will come to Him and gratefully and willingly submit to Him in all things, and so all will be made righteous and suffering will be no more. I also believe that the suffering we have to go through in this world (and possibly in the next, for those who have not chosen to follow Him yet) will seem like nothing when compared to eternity and the joy and peace we will have. I believe the suffering we experience here on earth is like that of a woman in labour: when we go through childbirth the pain is very intense and seems to last forever. We may even believe we will not survive and feel like we are dying. But when it is all said and done it was a very short period of time and the pain is actually very forgettable and we would do it all again for the joyous life it has brought about. Anyhow, that's my  :2c:

willieH: ...greetings, Tank!  :happygrin:

Quote from: thinktank on October 14, 2010, 11:06:09 PM
Never let any man take away the power of prayer from you, friend or foe, cast their advice to the dust

No one is trying to "take away" anything from anyone! ...just noting that which IS... according to the statements made in SCRIPTURE...

The Scripture notes that GOD WORKS ALL THINGS -- Eph 1:11 -- and that GOD noted END to BEGINNING the things NOT YET DONE -- Isaiah 46:10 --  what does that leave out, Tank?  Is not "prayer" that you intend to engage. ....a "thing" not yet DONE?  :dontknow:  Or a "work" (doing, or matter)?

Quote from: thinktank on October 14, 2010, 11:06:09 PM
for it is of Satan, after all what are you if you cannot communicate to your God?

It is not up to YOU to determine something as "of satan"... I don't see that GOD has appointed you this AUTHORITY. :mnah:

And besides, no one has suggested that we not communicate with our God...  It has just been noted that the HEAD is that which notes the actions and doings of the BODY...  And that those actions and doings were LONG AGO noted by YHVH ...before... they were become "actions and/or doings"... by Him... so "when" they are manifest, ...they occur according to that proclamation HE has already made of them...  :dontknow:

The examples of how GOD works in His Creation and IN His BODY are given in the natural for us to observe (i.e. our own bodies and that which surrounds them)

Do you percieve that...

...It is your FEET which decide WHERE your body shall GO?

...Or that your EARS decide WHAT you shall HEAR?

...Or your HANDS decide WHAT you shall TYPE on your computer keyboard?  :shakepoint:

If you cannot see this (then, at least for the moment), you cannot...  :dontknow:

No offense intended to you brother Tank, ...but that you cannot "see" this in this moment, does not therefore mean that it is not so, ...nor that it is of "ADVERSITY"... any more than a blind man shall in his blindness, determine the pattern on your shirt as UGLY and ADVERSE to his eyes (which cannot "see")...  :dontknow:

:Peace:

 :eyebrow:

okee dokee then...

God's ways are already perfect, changing them to give us that sentiment of importance, sentiment that we gain when we understand what it means to be God's image-bearer,would alter God's ways, making them non-perfect because we believe they can be better with this or with that.

So you're left with a God who answer to our prayers but which ways are imperfect or a God who does everything according to His OWN will which is perfect and unchanging.

It's all about understanding that Jesus NEVER did or said anything according to his will but everything according to the Father's will.

When Jesus said not to worry about anything, it's that kind of faith it takes. Because it is when I was revealed this that I stopped worrying about anything.

So it all boils down to two things, when it comes to prayer.

Its one sided conversation, God will do what he wants irregardless of us:  Absolutely useless to even pray?

Its a requited, two sided conversation, God takes our wishes into account with his will:  His will becomes imperfect?

Why is it considered so impossible for;

Its a requited, two sided conversation, God takes our wishes into account with his will:  His will remains perfect, our free-will petitions already being placed in his will to provide upon our request.

"Pre-emptive willful giving in preparation for the moment of its requisition."

C.S Lewis once made a very logical statement regarding the omnipresence/omniscience of God, and his relationship with Time/Destiny.  I will have to find the quote, but from what I recall and if I may summarise, God exists in a state of ever-present "now", that every point in time is "now", the "present" to him.  He is not bound by any form of time, as time (a force of continuity) is to his perspective, a divine perspective of the manipulatable Present.

Quote from: Lefein on October 16, 2010, 12:56:13 AM
So it all boils down to two things, when it comes to prayer.

Its one sided conversation, God will do what he wants irregardless of us:  Absolutely useless to even pray?

Its a requited, two sided conversation, God takes our wishes into account with his will:  His will becomes imperfect?

Why is it considered so impossible for;

Its a requited, two sided conversation, God takes our wishes into account with his will:  His will remains perfect, our free-will petitions already being placed in his will to provide upon our request.

"Pre-emptive willful giving in preparation for the moment of its requisition."

C.S Lewis once made a very logical statement regarding the omnipresence of God, and his relationship with Time/Destiny.  I will have to find the quote, but from what I recall and if I may summarise, God exists in a state of ever-present "now", that every point in time is "now", the "present" to him.  He is not bound by any form of time, as time (a force of continuity) is to his perspective, a divine perspective of the manipulatable Present.

Lefein, imagine you know every truth and you know it is truth. One man comes to you and says something which come in opposition with the truth you possess. You will enter in a discussion where you'll try to explain why what the other man is saying can't be true. You'll listen to his side and you'll say your side but anything he can say won't change your perception because you have the truth and you listen by love and to understand where the other person is in hope that you can change his perspective.

I'd say that is an imperfect image of what happens in prayer when we listen to what God is saying rather than talk all the time. You can ask things to God but you have to listen and hear the answers. If it's a no than your next step is asking God why your will is not His will.
That's why prayer changes us.

QuoteIts a requited, two sided conversation, God takes our wishes into account with his will:  His will becomes imperfect?

Why is it considered so impossible for

If His will is perfect, it also doesn't change because a change means imperfection, what is perfect never changes.
Isn't it James who said that we can ask anything according to His will?
Didn't Jesus said that anything asked in His name will be given?
I know an awfull lot of people who always finish their prayers with "in Jesus' name amen" and they do not receive everything they ask for.
Do you?
I know I prayed for a lot of things in my life and the answers were probably 90% "no" because they were selfish prayers or asked in the flesh not understanding that "sufferings lead to perfection".
But everytime I ask the Lord to humble me or everytime I ask to be revealed more of the Word, He answers and quickly.
But again, that's what I believe in.

willieH:  :happygrin:

FIRST --- It all comes down to the BODY recognizing and knowing the HEAD is in charge of ALL THINGS... Maker of ALL THINGS which are MADE -- Rom 9:21 -- John 1:3 -- Col 1:16 -- irregardless of our perception of them as "good" or "evil" --- which in turn is an acknowledgement of the GLORY of YHVH as being ...ALL ...MIGHTY...

There is NO POWER, except HIS -- Rom 13:1 -- so no one possessing "power" of any kind, can of truth claim, that the SOURCE of the power utilized, is OF self... for ALL POWER has ONE SOURCE. 

If power is designated in any given being, then it is designated by the WILL of YHVH which WORKS ALL THINGS that they have this "power", and furthermore it has been given to them, for the PURPOSES of YHVH to be accomplished in ALL... Who therefore is due, ALL CREDIT for the OUTCOME and PROCESS of ALL things... once they (all things) are manifest and reach COMPLETION...     

God took the EVIL acts of Pharaoh and made His name and POWER known all over the world -- Rom 9:17

We are not to esteem ourselves, as larger than we should...

Before YHVH God, of OURSELVES, ...we are NOTHING... but being emergent of His infinite LOVE, ...IN Him, BY Him, FROM Him, and FOR Him... we are His EVERYTHING.  :HeartThrob:

In the desire of Him and HIS WILL, should our hearts be completely occupied (not worrying over our own petty desires)... and in PRAYER (which is about all doings of LIFE, not just the words of a given "conversation"), should we be EVER about seeking Him, and Who and What He is... thereby abandoning OURSELVES...

Unless and until, one abandons completely ALL the riches of oneself including ones own "will", one is not entered into the Kingdom -- Matt 19:23 -- or worthy to be His DISCIPLE -- Luke 14:26

CHRIST noted that we leave behind our "baggage" and come an follow Him, who IS about DOING and SPEAKING, ...NOTHING OF HIMSELF.

Paul noted that he "lived", but didn't live!! ... Gal 2:20 ...because, he had LEFT "himself" behind.

SECOND --- If we are praying that the WILL of the Father be done in one breath, and in the next, expect our own desires be fufilled ...without knowing that those desires might NOT be HIS WILL for us, ...such prayer finds itself is self-contradictory. JESUS noted in His prayer... His desire that the cup pass, BUT ONLY, ... if it be the WILL of the Father...  It was NOT, ...and accordingly, ...the "cup" did not pass...

THIRD --- "free will" is not allowed as a topic of discussion on this forum and so it should not be mentioned at all in support of an opinion, ...for those who oppose this Unbiblical notion are not allowed to speak against it...  :dontknow:

I don't think I'm being understood, in what I am trying to convey.  I suspect that there is a hindrance in either my abilities in Language, or else Language itself.

Quote from: willieH on October 16, 2010, 01:58:18 AM
willieH:  :happygrin:

FIRST --- It all comes down to the BODY recognizing and knowing the HEAD is in charge of ALL THINGS... Maker of ALL THINGS which are MADE -- Rom 9:21 -- John 1:3 -- Col 1:16 -- irregardless of our perception of them as "good" or "evil" --- which in turn is an acknowledgement of the GLORY of YHVH as being ...ALL ...MIGHTY...

There is NO POWER, except HIS -- Rom 13:1 -- so no one possessing "power" of any kind, can of truth claim, that the SOURCE of the power utilized, is OF self... for ALL POWER has ONE SOURCE. 

If power is designated in any given being, then it is designated by the WILL of YHVH which WORKS ALL THINGS that they have this "power", and furthermore it has been given to them, for the PURPOSES of YHVH to be accomplished in ALL... Who therefore is due, ALL CREDIT for the OUTCOME and PROCESS of ALL things... once they (all things) are manifest and reach COMPLETION...     

God took the EVIL acts of Pharaoh and made His name and POWER known all over the world -- Rom 9:17

We are not to esteem ourselves, as larger than we should...

Before YHVH God, of OURSELVES, ...we are NOTHING... but being emergent of His infinite LOVE, ...IN Him, BY Him, FROM Him, and FOR Him... we are His EVERYTHING.  :HeartThrob:

In the desire of Him and HIS WILL, should our hearts be completely occupied (not worrying over our own petty desires)... and in PRAYER (which is about all doings of LIFE, not just the words of a given "conversation"), should we be EVER about seeking Him, and Who and What He is... thereby abandoning OURSELVES...

Unless and until, one abandons completely ALL the riches of oneself including ones own "will", one is not entered into the Kingdom -- Matt 19:23 -- or worthy to be His DISCIPLE -- Luke 14:26

CHRIST noted that we leave behind our "baggage" and come an follow Him, who IS about DOING and SPEAKING, ...NOTHING OF HIMSELF.

Paul noted that he "lived", but didn't live!! ... Gal 2:20 ...because, he had LEFT "himself" behind.

SECOND --- If we are praying that the WILL of the Father be done in one breath, and in the next, expect our own desires be fufilled ...without knowing that those desires might NOT be HIS WILL for us, ...such prayer finds itself is self-contradictory. JESUS noted in His prayer... His desire that the cup pass, BUT ONLY, ... if it be the WILL of the Father...  It was NOT, ...and accordingly, ...the "cup" did not pass...

THIRD --- "free will" is not allowed as a topic of discussion on this forum and so it should not be mentioned at all in support of an opinion, ...for those who oppose this Unbiblical notion are not allowed to speak against it...  :dontknow:

...willieH  :cloud9:

It is commendable that you are trying to figure out the mysterious and complex ways of God, to me some of these ideas you present are new to me, but I do find them to be a slight twist on what I believe and seemingly contradict what the scriptures teach.

But here is a difficult question I have for your theology. If God as you claim is the declarer of all things and you take that scripture to mean that he is behind all things, including the very actions of men, even designating two different groups those to honour and those to dishonour, then I ask the question, how is it that you say in the above quote that mans will must subject himself to Gods will?. For now you are admitting by your own words that man does indeed have a will that is outside the will of YAH, which begs the question as to how can man indeed have a willand subject it to Gods will, if mans will is already DECLARED under the directive and command of the almighty? It seems to be with this theology you propose that there is no difference between a man in Christ's will and the unrighteous man, who according to you are both under Gods directive will, one pertaining to dishonour and one to honour.

Amen Thinktank!

God gave man dominion over the earth and everything on it.

"dominion"

dominance or power through legal authority

If I have legal authority over something or someone, then I am allowed to make decisions within the context of that authority.

But, I would also expect to be accountable for my decisions.  There's the rub.

There is a legalistic way of looking at the Scriptures as they attest to that.

But David and Paul give us pause:

Psalm 24:1
The earth [is] the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.

1 Corinthians 10:26
For the earth [is] the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.

There's another rub.

It is because the earth is the Lord's that he can legitimately give man dominion over it.

That makes Satan a usurper.

'one who wrongfully or illegally seizes and holds the place of another'

I, for one, do not have dominion over my earth or the planet.
I can not speak for others but observation points otherwise.

Here are the facts...

Creation is the Lord's.
Man has dominion over the earth, and creatures.

A sort of hierarchy exists in Reality.  Just look at our court system for example, or local vs. state vs. federal  government...A kid's bedroom, over the parent's house.  Etc, etc.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o-IbqrbH0Q

He has given dominion to us but we have yet to take it.

"Then Caleb quieted the people before Moses, and said' "Let us go up at once and take possession, for we are well able to overcome it." (Num.13:30).

"And all the congregation said to stone them with stones." (Num.14:10).

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 16, 2010, 05:22:56 AM


I, for one, do not have dominion over my earth or the planet.
I can not speak for others but observation points otherwise.

What do you think of the following scriptures

Psalm 115:16   
The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.


Job 9:24   
The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he?

God has given the earth to mankind to rule for 6 days or 6 thousand years until the 7th day of sabbath rest when God takes away the sceptre from man and gives it to Christ and his overcomers. In Daniels book he destroys the worldly beast empires.
To me mankind has far more authority then they care to realize. On a daily basis people curse with their tongue and bring evil upon the world, only Gods mercy and the prayers of his saints prevents this world from utter destruction.

For death and life are in the power of the tongue

Look above.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 16, 2010, 05:59:58 AM
Look above.

You meant I as in I in christ?

Because technically you even though you are not of the world we are still in the world and so we as Gods people are in authority now, because we as well as being children of the highest are also qualified to be the children of men spoken of in the psalms scripture I gave. So we do have dominion now in the sense that we can impact the world being children of men, until the time comes when he whos right it is shall receive it in fullness.

No, I meant at my post.

Whether we are dominant in the typical sense or not, we should at the very least remember God's greatest requirement as far as governance; We are to be righteous stewards.

A steward has control over the estate of his, or her master.

I have control over nothing.

Then you are not a steward.

A steward controls nothing.

Steward

1.
a person who manages another's property or financial affairs; one who administers anything as the agent of another or others.
2.
a person who has charge of the household of another, buying or obtaining food, directing the servants, etc.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/steward

Control, is not "Tyranny" I shall remind the world.

Christians are stewards, rulers, priests and kings even now we are kings, and rulers.

In Luke 16:1; the steward performs a duty.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 16, 2010, 06:18:00 AM
I have control over nothing.

Isn't it more like this?

Phil 4:13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.


... for without me ye can do nothing. [John 15:5]

Precisely not I but Christ.
I die daily.

A blue bird was given charge over the nest of an Eagle, the Eagle said to him;

"See my eggs?  See my nest?  They shall hatch, and my nest shall be torn by their youth and play. You my servant, keep my chicks, feed them, and maintain my nest while I fly and do what is mine to do.  You are my steward."

--

"I shall be a good steward."

And so the Eagle flew off, and left his nest to do what was his to do.

The chicks hatched, three of them were born and needed to eat, and so they said to the blue bird;

"Feed us!"

And so the blue bird brought them worms from the ground, and offered them from his gizzard.  The chicks refused the meal, and would not eat what the blue bird offered, and so they starved, and one chick died, leaving two.

The two chicks then began to romp about the nest, tearing it, and breaking it apart.  The blue bird continued to put straw on the nest, but the two chicks broke down what he built up, and so the nest was in worse shape than it was at the first.  At last the nest became so dilapidated that it collapsed on one side, and one of the chicks fell from the cliff in its ruin, leaving one chick behind.

The blue bird continued to maintain what was left of the nest, and offered food to the chick, and so it did eat.  This last chick then stood in the midst of the nest, and awaited the return of its father, and so the eagle did indeed return to check the progress of his steward.

The Eagle landed, and was full of wroth, seeing his nest destroyed, and only one of his children survived;

"What have you done?"

--

"Why master, I have done as you said, I have fed your chicks, and maintained your nest."

--

"Then why is my nest broken, and why does only one of my precious eaglets stand before me alive?  One at the bottom of the abyss, and the other rotting on the side of my home!  Why did you not command them to eat?  Why did you not command them to behave while you built and beautified?"

--

"You commanded me to feed them, and keep your nest maintained.  But I have no control over the eaglets, or the nest, I am but a lowly blue bird."

____ ____ ____

Neglect of power is as costly as the abuse of power.  Just as the neglect of the silver talent, buried in the ground is as costly as stealing it from your master.

 :cloud9: We have been given dominion but that dominion is thru Him as we come into agreement with His will and His desires and are to speak what we hear, do what we 'see' Him do, ect. Dead men don't control anything, and we are to reckon ourselves dead.

As we decrease and He increases, dominion also increases in reality, not just in principle. He gives us 'tastes' of it, as in tastes of the Kingdom (which is IN Christ) to come.

I've shared this before, but once I was sitting reading the Word, it was a sunny day, no sign of a storm yet, and the Lord told me 3 times to go outside and look up before I finally figured it wasn't my mind and went.  :mblush:

When I did, I was shocked to see a funnel cloud coming from the north of me, heading straight for my home. I said, "LORD! Did you bring me out here to see what was going to destroy me or what???"

He said calmly, "Take authority over it."

I stumbled around a bit mentally first; I mean, what exactly does one say to a tornado coming straight for you?  :mshock: :dontknow:

I finally got it together enough to command that it would touch down in an open field and not hurt anything. The next day it was in the paper that a tornado touched down in a field south of my house, and then went back up, not hurting anything, PTL.

We ARE the sons of God, in the making, taking baby steps, into maturity. Blessings....

Isa 29:16  Ye turn things upside down! Shall the potter be esteemed as clay; that the thing made should say of him that made it, He made me not; or the thing formed say of him that formed it, He hath no understanding?

Quote from: Cardinal on October 16, 2010, 05:59:46 PM
:cloud9: We have been given dominion but that dominion is thru Him as we come into agreement with His will and His desires and are to speak what we hear, do what we 'see' Him do, ect. Dead men don't control anything, and we are to reckon ourselves dead.

As we decrease and He increases, dominion also increases in reality, not just in principle. He gives us 'tastes' of it, as in tastes of the Kingdom (which is IN Christ) to come.

I've shared this before, but once I was sitting reading the Word, it was a sunny day, no sign of a storm yet, and the Lord told me 3 times to go outside and look up before I finally figured it wasn't my mind and went.  :mblush:

When I did, I was shocked to see a funnel cloud coming from the north of me, heading straight for my home. I said, "LORD! Did you bring me out here to see what was going to destroy me or what???"

He said calmly, "Take authority over it."

I stumbled around a bit mentally first; I mean, what exactly does one say to a tornado coming straight for you?  :mshock: :dontknow:

I finally got it together enough to command that it would touch down in an open field and not hurt anything. The next day it was in the paper that a tornado touched down in a field south of my house, and then went back up, not hurting anything, PTL.

We ARE the sons of God, in the making, taking baby steps, into maturity. Blessings....

My goodness you have the coolest stories.

Quote from: Lefein on October 16, 2010, 06:54:42 AM
A blue bird was given charge over the nest of an Eagle, the Eagle said to him;

"See my eggs?  See my nest?  They shall hatch, and my nest shall be torn by their youth and play. You my servant, keep my chicks, feed them, and maintain my nest while I fly and do what is mine to do.  You are my steward."

--

"I shall be a good steward."

And so the Eagle flew off, and left his nest to do what was his to do.

The chicks hatched, three of them were born and needed to eat, and so they said to the blue bird;

"Feed us!"

And so the blue bird brought them worms from the ground, and offered them from his gizzard.  The chicks refused the meal, and would not eat what the blue bird offered, and so they starved, and one chick died, leaving two.

The two chicks then began to romp about the nest, tearing it, and breaking it apart.  The blue bird continued to put straw on the nest, but the two chicks broke down what he built up, and so the nest was in worse shape than it was at the first.  At last the nest became so dilapidated that it collapsed on one side, and one of the chicks fell from the cliff in its ruin, leaving one chick behind.

The blue bird continued to maintain what was left of the nest, and offered food to the chick, and so it did eat.  This last chick then stood in the midst of the nest, and awaited the return of its father, and so the eagle did indeed return to check the progress of his steward.

The Eagle landed, and was full of wroth, seeing his nest destroyed, and only one of his children survived;

"What have you done?"

--

"Why master, I have done as you said, I have fed your chicks, and maintained your nest."

--

"Then why is my nest broken, and why does only one of my precious eaglets stand before me alive?  One at the bottom of the abyss, and the other rotting on the side of my home!  Why did you not command them to eat?  Why did you not command them to behave while you built and beautified?"

--

"You commanded me to feed them, and keep your nest maintained.  But I have no control over the eaglets, or the nest, I am but a lowly blue bird."

____ ____ ____

Neglect of power is as costly as the abuse of power.  Just as the neglect of the silver talent, buried in the ground is as costly as stealing it from your master.

I enjoyed this story but I'm not quite sure of the message. In christs message it is slightly different, in that the man who hid his talent did nothing with his talent or authority and when the master returned he was angry at the slothfull servant who did nothing.

But in your story the blue bird was working hard, I was even cheering him on feeding those bratty chick eagles  :laughing7:
perhaps the blue bird needed to give them a good peck around the ear! but would the mother eagle have allowed that  :dontknow:

Spare the rod, spoil the child  :laughing7:

The message is interpretable I suppose.  But there are three important things to consider;

--The Eagle warned the blue bird, and commanded him.

"They shall hatch and my nest shall be torn by their youth and play"

"You my servant, keep my chicks, feed them, and maintain my nest."

--The Eagle made the blue bird his Steward; the caretaker of his estate.

--The Eagle when he came back did not say the blue bird did not do the job, but commented on how he did it "bare minimum", to which the blue bird replied with a false sense of humility - using his lowly state as a blue bird as an excuse.

God has warned us of the dangers, and trials.

God has commanded us to feed his sheep, and to be good stewards of what he has given us.  He has made us priests, and kings.

Many will say, Lord Lord, have we not done this and that in your name?  Be gone I never knew you.  Not everyone who says Lord Lord knows me. (in paraphrase anyway)

willieH: Hi Tank...  :cloud9:

Quote from: thinktank on October 16, 2010, 02:55:41 AMIt is commendable that you are trying to figure out the mysterious and complex ways of God, to me some of these ideas you present are new to me, but I do find them to be a slight twist on what I believe and seemingly contradict what the scriptures teach.

I observe your view ALMOST, in the very same way Tank! (that your views contradict the Scriptures)

Where this statement is not aligned, is that your views are not NEW to me... I have been hearing them for many, many, MANY years...  :happygrin:

Might I add, that I think it is commendable that you are searching concerning the mysteries of God, as well!

Quote from: thinktank on October 16, 2010, 02:55:41 AMBut here is a difficult question I have for your theology. If God as you claim is the declarer of all things and you take that scripture to mean that he is behind all things, including the very actions of men, even designating two different groups those to honour and those to dishonour

Let me stop you for a quick moment... The "vessels" of dishonor and honor, are of the SAME LUMP, Tank... YOU are that "lump", I am that "lump"... everyone is that "lump"...

Quotethen I ask the question, how is it that you say in the above quote that mans will must subject himself to Gods will?. For now you are admitting by your own words that man does indeed have a will that is outside the will of YAH

Man's "will" is encased in the CONCLUSION made by "YAH" (I prefer YHVH), ...That each of these "wills" be UNBELIEVING... without FAITH... and imprisoned in this condition until "YAH" drags the given individual and his/her CONTRARY "will" ...to the WORD which reveals the FATHER (YHVH -- within the time frame of the DECLARATION of ALL THINGS), which is FREED from the PRISON (and bondage) of UNBELIEF (in which SIN is encased -- Rom 14:23) --  by the WORD -- John 8:32

ALL of this is predetermined by the ALMIGHTY -- Isaiah 46:10 -- end to beginning by DECLARATION, ...then -- beginning to end by MANIFESTATION of that DECLARATION...

Quote from: thinktank on October 16, 2010, 02:55:41 AMwhich begs the question as to how can man indeed have a willand subject it to Gods will, if mans will is already DECLARED under the directive and command of the almighty?

You actually  make me giggle, bro...  :laugh: (not laughing at you, just laughing --  :wink1:)

Like the pharisees of old tried to "trip up CHRIST", so do you attempt same, ...with me...

Do you think I have not considered your questions before?  I have been discussing things like this for the last 7-8 years on Tentmaker... You are not the first to "ask" these things...  :laughing7:

The answer is simple to explain... will you listen to it?  :dontknow:

Who is putting ALL THINGS under the feet of CHRIST, Tank?  Are the "things" doing this (placing themselves below the feet of CHRIST?  Or indeed, do the Scriptures say that it is YHVH which is "DOING" it Tank? (putting ALL THINGS under Him) -- 1 Cor 15:28

GOD has decided that we have an ADVERSE "will" which is DISOBEDIENT, ...and to us (erroneously), ...this "will" appears as FREE and independent from Him... which is (no offense), surface foolishness...

How can anything be SEPARATED from the SOURCE which sustains it?  That GOD has decided we "choose" from options that HE has provided, effectually removes His "separation" from the choices available... You either "choose" one choice HE has made available (and designated good) or you "choose" from another choice HE has made available (and designated evil)...

Along with that... As SCRIPTURE plainly notes -- Isaiah 46:10 -- HE has already outlined (prior to any "choosings" done), ...by HIS DECLARATION of them, ...all "choices" made by men. 

If therefore men cannot "choose" contrary to what YHVH has already designated (which if they did, would render YHVH's designation of them FALSE), ...then it is just IGNORANCE that observes the "choice made" as originating from the "chooser" and not the provider of the "choices" and designation OF them...   :nod:

Quote from: thinktank on October 16, 2010, 02:55:41 AMIt seems to be with this theology you propose that there is no difference between a man in Christ's will and the unrighteous man, who according to you are both under Gods directive will, one pertaining to dishonour and one to honour.

Keyword in this statement is ..."seems"...  the SCRIPTURES SAY: 

1.  There IS no difference... BOTH are the product of YHVH -- Rom 9:21 -- YHVH makes BOTH, the vessels of honor and dishonor ...of the SAME LUMP...  :dontknow:

2.  ALL are unrighteous, Tank, ...NONE are GOOD, Tank!  -- Rom 3:10-12 -- Psalm 14:1-3  :dontknow:

3.  ALL are both -- the vessel of DISHONOR in their UNBELIEF and DISOBEDIENCE, as well the vessel of HONOR which is MOLDED and given FAITH to BELIEVE by the AUTHORING of CHRIST (the WORD) -- Heb 12:2 -- and are changed from that UNBELIEF and DISHONOR by GOD and His WORD, ...not of SELF.  :dontknow:

You make the very same OVER-ESTIMATION of yourself (alluding to yourself as a "righteous" man) that the Pharisees of Old, made of themselves as they foolishly compared THEMSELVES to others, in several situations (John 8:3-11 -- Luke 18:10-14 -- to name a few)

No man is "righteous"... for ALL are UNGODLY and due to that UNGODLINESS, CHRIST died for ALL -- Rom 5:6-8

:Peace: Tank...

Post removed, I am biding my time.

Quote from: Lefein on October 17, 2010, 04:31:43 AM

Removed by request of original poster.

Lefein,   :hithere:
It has been clearly stated that the topic of free will is restricted yet you continue to taunt another member on such a sensitive subject and then insist that he formats his response to your liking   :icon_farao:  — with only a yes or no.    :hammerhead:


Perhaps some enjoy Willie's colorful use of the board.    :first:


Making blanket assumptions is, often, selfish and shortsighted.  :Sparkletooth:

Post removed.  I've decided on a different course of action.

Bump.

Quote from: JohnnyCatholic12 on October 11, 2010, 03:54:38 PM
Brothers and Sisters,
I have a question for you all.  My wife and I were having a discussion about suffering in the world this morning.  You see my wife is a Deist, and doesn't believe in Jesus Christ because she said too much suffering goes on in the world, and where is God in all of this?  I tried to explain that suffering in the world is our fault,  but she said God should have never created us in the first place since he knew we would cause all of this suffering.
Also, she asked why some people get saved for tragedy and others don't.  I didn't really know what to say just because I'm not totally sure God does intervene to save people in auto accidents, plane crashes, etc.  She pointed to passage in Matthew where Jesus calms the storm while they were out on the boat as proof that God does intervene in tragedy. 

I was hoping I could get some more solid answers from the collective wisdom of you all.  I appreciate any responses.

This thread's being locked for a few minutes.  We will get back on track, including moving away from the personal stuff.

In looking at the OP again, I remember it actually does introduce the "free will" topic.  I'm removing that reference, maybe that will help us refocus. 

Thanks.

P.S.  There's been a little personal venting allowed.  If need be, plz go to PM with any further personal stuff.  Thanks.

Unlocked.  This topic has had various iterations, and it might not be the first time it won't be able to be discussed within the board guidelines.  We'll see.  Please proceed with awareness of all issues and expectations involved.  If unsure, plz review the Guidelines/Announcements section.

Thanks.


Suffering....

Jabcat, if you would be so kind, might you remove my list of questions, and the quoted list in Beloved Servant's post?

I've decided to bide my time...And I'd rather have no reminder of it for anyone to use.  I would be most thankful, and appreciative.

___

Many, many thanks Jabcat.  May you be blessed with a seven fold abundance of prosperity, health, and wisdom.  In the name of our Glorious Christ, Amen.

Jabcat, it's just another apparition and just like the rest — will be gone soon!

Quote from: Lefein on October 17, 2010, 06:10:20 AM
Jabcat, if you would be so kind, might you remove my list of questions, and the quoted list in Beloved Servant's post?

I've decided to bide my time...And I'd rather have no reminder of it for anyone to use.  I would be most thankful, and appreciative.

That would make my post look awkward.
Hmmm...what to do...what to do...

Yea, Jabcat, you deleted another one, I know ya did.
But I read it first before you got to it!
And you're right.    :declare:

Sometimes you figure you're sayin' too much...  :mblush:

I've deleted a bunch of my own posts...and we're probably the better for it.  LOL

It depends who your talking to.
Some people are just asking for it, and so, they finally get it!

Jesus spoke in no uncertain terms when calling them vipers.
Perhaps, though he was not just speaking to the men but also to the....





wait for it...











wait for it...











The bickering spirit.      :declare:

You reap what you sow, and you fall with whom you stand...

"This, indeed, is probably on the Enemy's motives for creating a dangerous world -- a world in which moral issues really come to the point. He sees as well as you do that courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point, which means, at the point of highest reality. A chastity or honesty which yields to danger will be chaste or honest or merciful only on conditions. Pilate was merciful until it became risky."

--C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters



"Do what you will, there is going to be some benevolence, as well as some malice, in your patient's soul. The great thing is to direct the malice to his immediate neighbours whom he meets every day and to thrust his benevolence out to the remote circumference, to people he does not know. The malice thus becomes wholly real and the benevolence largely imaginary."

--C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters

Quote from: Lefein on October 17, 2010, 07:27:41 AM
You reap what you sow, and you fall with whom you stand...

I liked your first response better, the one before this edit.

By God himself suffering on the cross, he is showing us--


1)suffering is a part of this evil age

2)he has overcome it

3)so will we through him

4)it is only for a little while, but then...

Ephesians 2:7
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Quote from: Lefein on October 15, 2010, 12:26:09 AM
The point willieH of what Molly (and I) are saying, if I am correct in saying this Molly and if not do correct me; is that God is not a <insert explicative> who doesn't listen to his own children, but only cares about what he wants to do.

And yes, I am indeed taking into account all of God's infinite wisdom, and benevolence, and all those pat-answers that say "God's way is best"...I'm just trying to make a point with what limited ability English can provide to convey the sentiment.

Quote14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses,  "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."[f] 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh,  "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."[g] 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

-Romans 9:14-21.

After many days of prayerful research and Scripture reading I believe God has revealed to me that (not to debate a forbidden subject) that "F.W." does not exist.  That willieH is correct.  What God wants is all that matters because "Thy Will be done."  I believe Paul is very clear that God is the potter, we are the clay, God came "make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor."

Quote from: Lefein on October 16, 2010, 12:56:13 AM
So it all boils down to two things, when it comes to prayer.

Its one sided conversation, God will do what he wants irregardless of us:  Absolutely useless to even pray?

Its a requited, two sided conversation, God takes our wishes into account with his will:  His will becomes imperfect?

Why is it considered so impossible for;

Its a requited, two sided conversation, God takes our wishes into account with his will:  His will remains perfect, our free-will petitions already being placed in his will to provide upon our request.

"Pre-emptive willful giving in preparation for the moment of its requisition."

C.S Lewis once made a very logical statement regarding the omnipresence/omniscience of God, and his relationship with Time/Destiny.  I will have to find the quote, but from what I recall and if I may summarise, God exists in a state of ever-present "now", that every point in time is "now", the "present" to him.  He is not bound by any form of time, as time (a force of continuity) is to his perspective, a divine perspective of the manipulatable Present.

If it's a one sided conversation, which I believe it is, I don't see how prayer is useless.  Look at the prayer Jesus gave us, "Thy kingdom come, Thy Will BE done on earth, as it is in Heaven."  That is how Jesus taught us to pray, that God's (whose? God's) Will be done.  The key to getting your prayers answered is to pray according to God's Will.

So in essence...We are but manipulated puppets on divine strings?

Perhaps you lot want to become punch and judy, but as for me and my house we shall worship the lord in spirit and in truth as joint or co heirs with Jesus Christ.

Peace

Who are punch and judy?

I do like the joint heirs part.  Amen.

Edit: OH! Punch and Judy are puppets...cool lol.

We are conformed into the image of His Son.
Here is a prayer: Father, glorify your Son, O Lord that I may be like Him in all ways and free creation from the blinding ignorance of it's vain-glorious self.

God molds us, changes us, and makes us into his image - this is true.

But it is all for a purpose, and it is not so he can amuse his whim and have toy butlers...

I am being made into a priest, and a king, fit to rule and live; Live Genuinely, in Truth, Life, and Love, in fullest Salvation.

Salvation = Freedom, and love doesn't manipulate, it draws one to by their own will align with yours, or draws you to by your own choice align your will to another's.

A helper-mate relationship works that way, and we are the bride of Christ, not his whore!

The worst kind of bondage, is to have no will of your own...

I call it FREEDOM.

Quote from: Lefein on October 18, 2010, 06:20:35 AM
God molds us, changes us, and makes us into his image - this is true.

But it is all for a purpose, and it is not so he can amuse his whim and have toy butlers...

I am being made into a priest, and a king, fit to rule and live; Live Genuinely, in Truth, Life, and Love, in fullest Salvation.

Salvation = Freedom, and love doesn't manipulate, it draws one to by their own will align with yours, or draws you to by your own choice align your will to another's.

A helper-mate relationship works that way, and we are the bride of Christ, not his whore!

The worst kind of bondage, is to have no will of your own...

Amen, yes it is easy to be deceived as a christian, I struggled with the issue from time to time, but it comes down to the fact that God can easily make slaves out of stones if he wishes, but instead he gives us the glorious opportunity to be willing participants of his kingdom as joint heirs in his kingdom, where true freedom abides, in his will. For God is love.

Quote from: thinktank on October 18, 2010, 06:08:59 AM
Perhaps you lot want to become punch and judy, but as for me and my house we shall worship the lord in spirit and in truth as joint or co heirs with Jesus Christ.

Peace

"For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.  So then it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but OF GOD that shows mercy.  For the Scripture says unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised you up, that I might show My powers in you, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore has He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardens."-Romans 9:15-18

"And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh and he hearkened not unto them, as the Lord had spoken unto Moses"-Exodus 9:12

"For God has concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon ALL. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God? How unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out! For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor? Or who has first given to Him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen" (Rom. 11:32-36).

    "And as a vesture shall Thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but THOU ART THE SAME..." (Heb. 1:12).

    "For I am the Lord, I CHANGE NOT..." (Mal. 3:6).

    "Jesus Christ the SAME yesterday, and today, and for ever" (Heb. 13:8).

"In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being PREDESTINED according to the PURPOSE OF HIM Who WORKS ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL" (Eph. 1:11).

"For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him Who has subjected the same in hope."-Rom 8:20

"Then said Pilate unto Him, Speak you not unto me? Know you not that I have to crucify you, and have power to realase you? Jesus answered, You could have NO POWER AT ALL against Me, except it were GIVEN YOU from above..." (John 19:10-11).

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that (faith) not of yourselves it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:8-10).

"For it is God which works in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

(All emphasis and bold-ing of words and statements were added.)

I could go on and on with a hundred more scriptures but I hope you get the point I am trying to get across.  If you learn nothing else, please learn that A) "For by grace ye are saved through faith; and that not of yourselves but it is the GIFT of GOD." B) "For it is GOD which works in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure."  God works all things to counsel of His Will and "Thy Will BE DONE."
The arguments I see put forth from the other side of the aisle are emotional appeals and the desires of man to control his own fate.  My arguments come from Scripture, which is inspired by God.  So I leave you with one more passage: "Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar."-Romans 3:4

I am pursuaded. But, I find from alot of what I've read,  the post(s) are walking into a subject that is not allowed on this forum.

Peace and Love Through Jesus.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 18, 2010, 06:24:41 AM


I call it FREEDOM.

Ah but there is freedom found in the Scriptures:

"If the Son therefore shall MAKE you free, ye shall be free indeed."-John 6:36
What are we made free from?

"Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God" (Rom. 8:21).

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death" (Rom. 8:2).

It's amazing how men want to be kings and gods of their own destinies and not be "a puppet on a divine string."  We really really want to be in charge but alas:

19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?-Rom. 9:19-21

As Scripture shows we are mere clay, God is the Potter and can do with the clay as He wishes.  God is in control and that is glorious news. 

As far as man wanting to kick God out from behind the steering wheel it reminds me of this passage:

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.-II Thess. 2:3-4

Two questions arise, Who is the man of sin?  And where is the Temple of God? 

The first question: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God-Rom. 3:23  "But the scripture has concluded ALL UNDER SIN..." (Gal. 3:22).

Now where is the "Temple of God?"

"Know ye not that YE ARE THE TEMPLE OF GOD, and that the Spirit of God DWELLS IN YOU?" (I Cor. 3:16).

    "If any man defile the TEMPLE OF GOD, him shall God destroy; for the THE TEMPLE OF GOD is holy, which temple YE ARE" (I Cor. 3:17).

    "What? Know ye not that YOUR BODY IS THE TEMPLE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? (I Cor. 6:19).

    "And what agreement has the TEMPLE OF GOD with idols? For YE ARE [6] THE TEMPLE OF THE LIVING GOD: as God has said, I will dwell IN them, and walk IN them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people" (II Cor. 6:16).

So I believe that when you claim to be in control of your own destiny you "sit in the temple of God and claim to be God."  Just something to think about.

Wonderful.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=X43XXpItGk0

 :cloud9: DELICATE tip-toeing around the subject is generally not strictly moderated as we realize that is difficult to exclude principles in scripture and talk about scripture, BUT: all out food fights, complete with name-calling, and flaming and baiting comments, WILL BE. Proceed. Blessings....

I AM FREE

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWv-UOHzaIc

I've read it said before but I read the story of Jonah this morning and I think it is the perfect example of what we're discussing here. Because even when Jonah thought that he was resisting God, he was in fact, doing His will.
We see that Jonah's three days and three night into the fish was an image of things to come.
Did Jonah thought all along that he was free?
Maybe.
But that doesn't change the fact that God had already declared his resistance.
There are too much verses saying that God is the only Creator and that He has created EVERYTHING WHICH EXIST, which includes us, our thoughts, our ways and our decisions.
To declare otherwise is to give reason to those who insist God has 2 wills and that one of these is dependant upon us. I hate that thinking and fight it daily with ETers. If God said that He wills all men to be saved, He will do it. To God all Powers, Authority, Wisdom and Strenght, who can resist His will?

I give my child a choice between having a cupcake for desert, and a rotten bucket full of cow diarrhea covered in maggots.

I know my child will choose the cupcake, and I watch as he chooses the cupcake, just as I knew he would.

Does that mean my child didn't choose the cupcake on his own accord?  No.

God anticipates, and knows what we will choose, and so Jonah by his own accord chose to flee, but God appointed the fish to ensure that His will was done.

We are the bride of Christ, we are not his whore...God is aligning our will with his through Love, we by our love for him aligning our wills to his because he loved us first, he is not manipulating us and yanking our chains through force - God is not a rapist.

We are the children of God who love our Father, and our Father is making us into spiritual adults, into his image; we like children respond to our love of God, which itself comes from God's love for us, he loves us, so we love him, just as your own sons and daughters love you, because you love them.  They want to be like you because they love you, you help them grow up to be the best they can be because you love them.  You don't force them to be like you!  You don't force them by manipulating them.  That is cruelty, and abuse.

I Will   DRAG   All men unto me.

The Gentle Shepherd.

There is a difference between dragging a drowning man onto the shore, and dragging a man into your house to be your slave.

There is a difference between dragging a woman out of oncoming traffic, and dragging her into your bed to be your "wife".

There is a difference between dragging your child away from a wood chipper, and dragging your child by the hair through a store when he's perfectly content to walk behind you.

Christ takes us from pasture to pasture, like sheep who follow his voice.  But it is we who follow.  If we fall, then he will drag us up from danger.  If a stray sheep is in a ditch, he will drag it up.  He will break the leg of a lamb that runs away, to carry it on his shoulders.  But the rest of the sheep, and the lamb when its leg heals will follow on their own accord, and freely graze in the pastures where he guides.

God isn't monochrome idiot who has only one method of rulership - Force.

Quote from: Quaesitor on October 18, 2010, 05:56:51 PM
I've read it said before but I read the story of Jonah this morning and I think it is the perfect example of what we're discussing here. Because even when Jonah thought that he was resisting God, he was in fact, doing His will.
We see that Jonah's three days and three night into the fish was an image of things to come.
Did Jonah thought all along that he was free?
Maybe.
But that doesn't change the fact that God had already declared his resistance.
There are too much verses saying that God is the only Creator and that He has created EVERYTHING WHICH EXIST, which includes us, our thoughts, our ways and our decisions.
To declare otherwise is to give reason to those who insist God has 2 wills and that one of these is dependant upon us. I hate that thinking and fight it daily with ETers. If God said that He wills all men to be saved, He will do it. To God all Powers, Authority, Wisdom and Strenght, who can resist His will?

Amen

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 18, 2010, 07:20:28 PM



I Will   DRAG   All men unto me.

Amen

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 18, 2010, 07:21:30 PM
The Gentle Shepherd.

Amen and Amen

Joh 6:44  no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;
DRAW  G1670 helkuō  helkō = to drag (literally or figuratively. From
G138 aihreomai= to take for oneself, that is, to prefer   That should be very comforting.

Remember He is the Gentle Shepard, so I reason and believe that the "dragging," will leave only heal- able brusing, if any.

Then he said to me, "This is what the LORD says to Zerubbabel:        It is not by force nor by strength, but by my Spirit, says the LORD of Heaven's Armies.

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 07:38:21 PM
Joh 6:44  no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;
DRAW  G1670 helkuō  helkō = to drag (literally or figuratively. From
G138 aihreomai= to take for oneself, that is, to prefer   That should be very comforting.

Remember He is the Gentle Shepard, so I reason and believe that the "dragging," will leave only heal- able brusing, if any.

Sweet to the lips but bitter to the belly.

Quote from: Lefein on October 18, 2010, 07:11:54 PM
I give my child a choice between having a cupcake for desert, and a rotten bucket full of cow diarrhea covered in maggots.

I know my child will choose the cupcake, and I watch as he chooses the cupcake, just as I knew he would.

Does that mean my child didn't choose the cupcake on his own accord?  No.

God anticipates, and knows what we will choose, and so Jonah by his own accord chose to flee, but God appointed the fish to ensure that His will was done.

We are the bride of Christ, we are not his whore...God is aligning our will with his through Love, we by our love for him aligning our wills to his because he loved us first, he is not manipulating us and yanking our chains through force - God is not a rapist.

We are the children of God who love our Father, and our Father is making us into spiritual adults, into his image; we like children respond to our love of God, which itself comes from God's love for us, he loves us, so we love him, just as your own sons and daughters love you, because you love them.  They want to be like you because they love you, you help them grow up to be the best they can be because you love them.  You don't force them to be like you!  You don't force them by manipulating them.  That is cruelty, and abuse.

You're twisting words here and making emotional appeals using words like "whore" and "manipulation."  Please quote the Scripture passages that back you up.  I'm not disputing that we a have a will, we do.  However, I am not "free" to make any choice I want.  There's only One Who has a Will that is "Free" and that is God.  Not even Christ could do what He wanted, but He did His Father's Will.  Please tell me how God can "work all things according to the counsel of HIS WILL" if He is not in complete and utter control? 
Please tell me how Jesus knew that Peter would deny Him three times before the cock crowed if Peter was free to do as he wished?  If Peter could have done whatever he wanted Jesus' words would have been "And I say to you Peter, before the cock crows you may, or may not depending on how you feel at that moment choose freely to deny me thrice.  Perhaps however you may only deny me once and then leave, or have a change of heart.  Who am I to tell you what you will do when things are not decided yet because you have not made your free choice yet?"  Even if God wasn't "working all things according to the counsel of HIS WILL" (which He is but let's pretend here that He isn't) Peter did not have an uninhibited will at that moment.  Let's take a look at the definition of F.W. for a moment:
   1.  The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
   2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.-http://www.answers.com/topic/free-will
It's that second definition I want you to pay attention to.  The ability to make free choices that unconstrained by external circumstances.

Tell me is there ever really a choice that is completely "unconstrained by external circumstances?"  No!  Let's look at Peter again, he was under all sorts of pressure from the mob that was gathering.  He feared for his safety and his life.  Do you really think he was free to make any choice he wanted?  No!  His will was not "unconstrained."  That's how the Lord works.  The Lord "works ALL THINGS according to the counsel of HIS WILL."  The Lord knows what he wants from you and will put you in the exact situation He wants at the exact time He wants to illicit the exact response He wants from you!  My friend the Lord is in control and the Lord is Good!  The Lord does all things for a purpose, and that purpose is the furthering of His Glory and that my friend is amazing! 

Our Father who art in Heaven is not constrained by anything.  Please don't discount the awesome power and might of God!  I thank God for revealing these things to me!  I have been a "Christian" nearly my whole life but I never understood what it meant to be "baptized by the Spirit" until just recently.  We don't worship a small petty god who is held captive by the folly of our fleshly decision, we worship a Large, Powerful, Dangerous, Awesome God whose power is beyond compare.  My brothers and sisters I leave you this Scripture from Paul's epistle to the Romans:

Quote18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21  because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that,  but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

-Romans 8:18-30

We're not going to debate free will/soverignty guys.  It's been done plenty if anyone wants to look back on old threads;  and it's caused plenty of problems.  It's also stated clearly that it's a banned topic, especially using the specific terms.  It can be discussed more creatively than that, using the scriptures.  We're heading towards a locked topic if we can't turn the corner.  I know it's hard, it takes some extra thought and effort, but it can be done.  Otherwise, we'll need to move on to another topic. 

Thanks.

Quote from: Lefein on October 18, 2010, 07:11:54 PM



I give my child a choice between having a cupcake for desert, and a rotten bucket full of cow diarrhea covered in maggots.

Fascinating.

QuoteFascinating.

Don't be snippy, it was a hypothetical example following the same principle as a rock-bread, fish-serpent, egg-scorpion.

Fascinating.  Hum?

I am referring to your choice of words.
The quote is snipped from your post — not mine.

And I curtailed any negative connotations you may have been attributing to me by specifically highlighting said post.  If you have not had any negative connotations, I apologise.  If you did, then my statement stands; Don't get snippy [an attitude].

You may have to forgive me ahead of time, as of late I have grown increasingly displeased with this assembly for a multitude of reasons.  Inevitably, most things presented are beginning to take that colour.

Again, they are your words — not mine.

But, I will thank you to stop telling me what to do now, lest you be asking Jabcat, again, to delete a string of your posts that you regretted later.

I didn't regret them.  I removed them in accordance with my own change of plans.

I'll quote another user to ask of you a question;

QuoteFascinating.  Hum?

Why do you find it fascinating?  Why did you quote, highlight, a particular point out of its context and not give additional discussion or rebuttal?

I don't trust your motives.  I suspect that you are being malevolent.  If you are not, do explain your position so that I can properly apologise, and properly settle the issue in a better way.

If your motives were meant for a benevolent purpose, a purpose I hope a fellow Christian would have...Then I'm sure you'll have no problem telling me?  Blessed are the peacemakers?

If they were not meant for benevolent purposes...Then I think we have a major, major problem on our hands...

Quote from: Lefein on October 18, 2010, 07:11:54 PM
I give my child a choice between having a cupcake for desert, and a rotten bucket full of cow diarrhea covered in maggots.

Maggots are nutritious... Yummy

My fascination is with the prudent choice of words.

Then I apologise whole heartedly, and ask for your forgiveness for me being snippy myself.  I am without excuse.

7x7

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 18, 2010, 11:51:59 PM
7x7

That's a lot of wheels :-)

As for 7x7.... trick question?
100, 61, 54, 49, 45, 41, 3A, 37, 34, 31, 29, etc
Pick one. They are all correct.
I think it's bedtime now :P

That's how many times we're given.

Matthew 18:22

Fascinating.  Hum?  I will let it stand. I feel that anyone who would propose such a choice is fascinating and it caused me to Hum=why would he say that? Hum. Fascinating.

If it is not fascinating; is it at least interesting?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFods1KSWsQ

QuoteFascinating.  Hum?  I will let it stand. I feel that anyone who would propose such a choice is fascinating and it caused me to Hum=why would he say that? Hum. Fascinating.

Deu 30:15  See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

Deu 30:19  I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

God gave man a similar choice, and even gave us the right answer to that choice.

Quote from: Lefein on October 19, 2010, 01:06:20 AM

QuoteFascinating.  Hum?  I will let it stand. I feel that anyone who would propose such a choice is fascinating and it caused me to Hum=why would he say that? Hum. Fascinating.

Deu 30:15  See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

Deu 30:19  I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

God gave man a similar choice, and even gave us the right answer to that choice.

:thumbsup:

Fascinating.

Did Adam and Eve eat the cupcake?

Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2010, 01:10:41 AM

Quote from: Lefein on October 19, 2010, 01:06:20 AM

QuoteFascinating.  Hum?  I will let it stand. I feel that anyone who would propose such a choice is fascinating and it caused me to Hum=why would he say that? Hum. Fascinating.

Deu 30:15  See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

Deu 30:19  I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

God gave man a similar choice, and even gave us the right answer to that choice.

:thumbsup:

And I'll add, empowers those predestined to believe and choose rightly, to do so.  Those He uses for His purpose.  Those "to whom it isn't given", He uses for His purpose.  What's His purpose and will?  (The ecclesia/remnant now, the rest later), but that all be saved.   :thumbsup:

Quote
Did Adam and Eve eat the cupcake?

It depends, is the glass half empty, or half full?

It would seem to me that they took a nice bite out of Death, which is worse than any bucket of fecal matter.  Then again, I suppose they had to eat something horrendously disgusting and bitter to the stomach before they could realise that the cupcake is much yummier.

They took a big swig of the cow bucket, and never got to eat the cupcake.  But if I may be encouraging...so as not to sound so thoroughly negative about the whole situation...

The fruit of the knowledge of Good and Evil, by disobedience they learned the difference...They learned what Evil was.  But they also learned what it was to be Good, and how sweet it is, or will be.  The fruit of the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil wasn't just the tree of the knowledge of evil...it was the tree of the knowledge of good.

Adam and Eve knew God, but they never knew how good God is, and until they knew about evil, they'd never be able to understand or know how good God is.

QuoteAdam and Eve knew God, but they never knew how good God is, and until they knew about evil, they'd never be able to understand or know how good God is.

:thumbsup:

Quote from: Lefein on October 18, 2010, 07:11:54 PM


I know my child will choose the cupcake, and I watch as he chooses the cupcake, just as I knew he would.

Did Adam and Eve choose the cupcake?

That's the whole "experience of evil", isn't it?  The concept I've been trying to get my mind around for some time.  The "lowered into this realm".  The "all turned to disobedience so He can have mercy on all"...

Good word.   :thumbsup:

Amen James.

Eve was deceived by the Nacash [serpent].  But, Adam wasn't.

We are the masterpiece of His Creation and by dragging us through this realm He gets back something greater than He created.

Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2010, 01:32:00 AM
Eve was deceived by the Nacash [serpent].  But, Adam wasn't.

moot.
Adam (plural).

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 19, 2010, 01:32:34 AM

We are the masterpiece of His Creation and by dragging us through this realm He gets back something greater than He created.

Although I do think, and I figure you won't agree, that man was meant to learn about good and evil after a certain amount of maturity, and Satan bypassed that plan by offering it to man too soon.

So we split the atom and make a bomb instead of giving electricity to the whole world.   We are not mature enough yet to handle the knowledge.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 19, 2010, 01:34:13 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2010, 01:32:00 AM
Eve was deceived by the Nacash [serpent].  But, Adam wasn't.

moot.
Adam (plural).

It's not moot in the sense that Adam at least thought he was doing the right thing.  He made a choice for Eve.  As Christ makes a choice for the church.

QuoteDid Adam and Eve choose the cupcake?

No.  They chose to eat from the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil, instead of being content with the rest of the garden.

But the difference between me and God, is that I can only predict the obvious.

Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2010, 01:35:50 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 19, 2010, 01:32:34 AM

We are the masterpiece of His Creation and by dragging us through this realm He gets back something greater than He created.

Although I do think, and I figure you won't agree, that man was meant to learn about good and evil after a certain amount of maturity, and Satan bypassed that plan by offering it to man too soon.

So we split the atom and make a bomb instead of giving electricity to the whole world.   We are not mature enough yet to handle the knowledge.

Bypassed the plan?
NOT A CHANCE, he's but a dog on a leash without any cards up his sleeve.
God's timing, like everything is supremely perfect. No one can usurp His plan, change it or take Him by surprise.

We blow ourselves up because we ate the good and evil without the wisdom of God to cover it and without life (the tree of) we only can reproduce death.

Satan is an awful lot like the school yard bully.  He thinks he rules the school, and thinks he is above even the principle...but when push comes to shove, he has to obey the teacher too, and he has to ask permission before he can mess with the art supplies.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 19, 2010, 01:47:26 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2010, 01:35:50 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 19, 2010, 01:32:34 AM

We are the masterpiece of His Creation and by dragging us through this realm He gets back something greater than He created.

Although I do think, and I figure you won't agree, that man was meant to learn about good and evil after a certain amount of maturity, and Satan bypassed that plan by offering it to man too soon.

So we split the atom and make a bomb instead of giving electricity to the whole world.   We are not mature enough yet to handle the knowledge.

Bypassed the plan?
NOT A CHANCE, he's but a dog on a leash without any cards up his sleeve.
God's timing, like everything is supremely perfect. No one can usurp His plan, change it or take Him by surprise.

We blow ourselves up because we ate the good and evil without the wisdom of God to cover it and without life (the tree of) we only can reproduce death.

Truth.  People give Satan waaaaaaay too much credit.  Satan is under God's command.  Satan is not some monster running around blowing up God's plans.  Satan has a purpose and God uses Him for the purposes He chooses.

Quote from: JohnnyCatholic12 on October 19, 2010, 01:58:39 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 19, 2010, 01:47:26 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2010, 01:35:50 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 19, 2010, 01:32:34 AM

We are the masterpiece of His Creation and by dragging us through this realm He gets back something greater than He created.

Although I do think, and I figure you won't agree, that man was meant to learn about good and evil after a certain amount of maturity, and Satan bypassed that plan by offering it to man too soon.

So we split the atom and make a bomb instead of giving electricity to the whole world.   We are not mature enough yet to handle the knowledge.

Bypassed the plan?
NOT A CHANCE, he's but a dog on a leash without any cards up his sleeve.
God's timing, like everything is supremely perfect. No one can usurp His plan, change it or take Him by surprise.

We blow ourselves up because we ate the good and evil without the wisdom of God to cover it and without life (the tree of) we only can reproduce death.

Truth.  People give Satan waaaaaaay too much credit.  Satan is under God's command.  Satan is not some monster running around blowing up God's plans.  Satan has a purpose and God uses Him for the purposes He chooses.

You mean like human sacrifice, for instance?  Like torture?  Like murder?  I'll give Satan credit for all of that and more.  As God said, this stuff didn't even enter his mind.

Satan, like the nations God used to punish Israel, likes to boast that they are mighty in their power.  But the axe doesn't long boast against the hand that is using it to chop, or the saw that is being wielded back and forth...he may boast, but Satan will like the nations God used, Babylon, Assyria, the Edomites, Ammorites, etc...will be punished for their iniquity.

The Israelites bowed down to Baals, and so the nations of Baal took them as slaves, and killed them!  God punished the Israelites who worshiped Baal, but behold, he punished all who worship Baal, and broke the idols themselves before his presence.

Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2010, 02:01:46 AM

Quote from: JohnnyCatholic12 on October 19, 2010, 01:58:39 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 19, 2010, 01:47:26 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2010, 01:35:50 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 19, 2010, 01:32:34 AM

We are the masterpiece of His Creation and by dragging us through this realm He gets back something greater than He created.

Although I do think, and I figure you won't agree, that man was meant to learn about good and evil after a certain amount of maturity, and Satan bypassed that plan by offering it to man too soon.

So we split the atom and make a bomb instead of giving electricity to the whole world.   We are not mature enough yet to handle the knowledge.

Bypassed the plan?
NOT A CHANCE, he's but a dog on a leash without any cards up his sleeve.
God's timing, like everything is supremely perfect. No one can usurp His plan, change it or take Him by surprise.

We blow ourselves up because we ate the good and evil without the wisdom of God to cover it and without life (the tree of) we only can reproduce death.

Truth.  People give Satan waaaaaaay too much credit.  Satan is under God's command.  Satan is not some monster running around blowing up God's plans.  Satan has a purpose and God uses Him for the purposes He chooses.

You mean like human sacrifice, for instance?  Like torture?  Like murder?  I'll give Satan credit for all of that and more.  As God said, this stuff didn't even enter his mind.

So you propose that Satan operates outside the Will of God?  Satan was created by who?  God.  God created Satan, do you believe that was mistaken when He made Satan?  That He messed up or "things just went wrong?"  Why do we humans love to project their faults onto God?  Why do we project our same weakness, errors, and folly in planning onto God, as if He operates on the same plane we do? 

If a pharmaceutical company creates a medicine that causes lets say blindness who do we fault, the medicine or the scientist?  Why do we hold the creature rather than the Creator responsible then?  God has a plan, and "is working ALL THINGS according to the counsel of HIS Will."  Note who Paul states is doing the working, not us, not Satan, God.  God is working.  Sometimes I feel as though we try and equate God to the "The Watchmaker" of Deism.  God doesn't make mistakes.

Good posts everyone.  Congrats on discussing this VERY difficult, complicated subject - so overwhelming to our finite, human minds - in such a productive manner.   :thumbsup:

Quote from: JohnnyCatholic12 on October 18, 2010, 04:02:47 PM

Quote from: thinktank on October 18, 2010, 06:08:59 AM
Perhaps you lot want to become punch and judy, but as for me and my house we shall worship the lord in spirit and in truth as joint or co heirs with Jesus Christ.

Peace

"For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.  So then it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but OF GOD that shows mercy.  For the Scripture says unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised you up, that I might show My powers in you, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore has He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardens."-Romans 9:15-18

"And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh and he hearkened not unto them, as the Lord had spoken unto Moses"-Exodus 9:12

"For God has concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon ALL. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God? How unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out! For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor? Or who has first given to Him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen" (Rom. 11:32-36).

    "And as a vesture shall Thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but THOU ART THE SAME..." (Heb. 1:12).

    "For I am the Lord, I CHANGE NOT..." (Mal. 3:6).

    "Jesus Christ the SAME yesterday, and today, and for ever" (Heb. 13:8).

"In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being PREDESTINED according to the PURPOSE OF HIM Who WORKS ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL" (Eph. 1:11).

"For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him Who has subjected the same in hope."-Rom 8:20

"Then said Pilate unto Him, Speak you not unto me? Know you not that I have to crucify you, and have power to realase you? Jesus answered, You could have NO POWER AT ALL against Me, except it were GIVEN YOU from above..." (John 19:10-11).

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that (faith) not of yourselves it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:8-10).

"For it is God which works in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

(All emphasis and bold-ing of words and statements were added.)

I could go on and on with a hundred more scriptures but I hope you get the point I am trying to get across.  If you learn nothing else, please learn that A) "For by grace ye are saved through faith; and that not of yourselves but it is the GIFT of GOD." B) "For it is GOD which works in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure."  God works all things to counsel of His Will and "Thy Will BE DONE."
The arguments I see put forth from the other side of the aisle are emotional appeals and the desires of man to control his own fate.  My arguments come from Scripture, which is inspired by God.  So I leave you with one more passage: "Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar."-Romans 3:4

Hey johnny  :thumbsup: , the above scriptures are basically saying that we are not God, they do not nullify the argments I and others here have made at all. What you are arguing against is that we are not God the creator. I have never said that we are God, even though it seems many people here I think that  :dontknow: what I argue is based on scripture from cover to cover, it starts right off from Genesis, when God gave adam a choice between the tree of good and evil and the tree of life. This is just one scripture of hundreds of such cases. The scriptures you quote do not make void all these other scriptures, otherwise half the bible is made void.


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that (faith) not of yourselves it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:8-10).


No offense but what kind of a christian think's he can save himself, such a person is still in darkness and has not had a true revelation of who Jesus Christ is. When a person is in darkness they are outside the will of God, they cannot hear God or be directed by him and they often commit hideous crimes

listen to what solomon had to say arguably the wisest man ever lived

Proverbs 4:23   
Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.

Proverbs 15:28   
The heart of the righteous studieth to answer: but the mouth of the wicked poureth out evil things.

lets see what Jesus says our author and finisher of our faith.

Matthew 12:35   
A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

Matthew 15:19   
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

(not in the will of God, outside it see).

This is why Christians pray so that we can hear God and be directed by his will, yes? Can I get a witness?


"For God has concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon ALL. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God? How unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out! For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor? Or who has first given to Him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen" (Rom. 11:32-36)


Let me ask you this question, are you in unbelief? am I? are the people here at tentmaker? The answer I hope is no , if you read the passage in context you will see that Paul is talking about the gentiles who were in the past, had no access to christ and therefore lost, without hope, for how can a man exist without God?
The mercy upon all are the gentiles, who of course by now are no longer subject to unbelief BC, but do have belief AD as many here testify and millions around the world.



"Then said Pilate unto Him, Speak you not unto me? Know you not that I have to crucify you, and have power to realase you? Jesus answered, You could have NO POWER AT ALL against Me, except it were GIVEN YOU from above..." (John 19:10-11).

Interesting you bring up pilate. What a great story to try and prove what I am saying. Ok here we have pilate, now I ask you this? What did pilate want? Did he want to cruxify Jesus Christ? I hope the answer you give is no. Ok so pilate does not want to cruxify Jesus Christ? Even though this cruxifiction is of utmost importance to God. So we have God who's supposedly in charge of mans will, but yet is not able to control pilate and tell him to cruxify Jesus Christ. One might say God gives us an illusion, that man has control and was playing tricks with pilate. Ok if you want to believe that then go ahead, but does God want to confuse his readers? Pilate does not desire to cruxify Jesus because that's his will, but Gods will is greater and the cruxifiction must come to pass and that is, that Jesus Christ hangs on a tree for our sins and breaks every curse, for cursed is he that hangeth on a tree.


"For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.  So then it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but OF GOD that shows mercy.  For the Scripture says unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised you up, that I might show My powers in you, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore has He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardens."-Romans 9:15-18

Here we have God revealing the very purpose of raising up pharoa, to bring his name glory to the ends of the earth :msealed:
So God controls mans will but yet needs a man to show his glory, do you see the problem here?

John 9:31   
Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.


Why are people over the world dying and in bondage to darkness, when christ came to promise us life? The above scripture might shed some light on the subject. Please don't take this as a statement though, but let it be revealed.

I hope now my words have challenged your position or at the very least give you a better perspective as to why I believe what I believe.

God bless

Likewise we are made in God's image.  What that mean's precisely is difficult to say, but at the very least it means we have various aspects of character that God has also.

Sentience/Self-awareness, Will, Emotions, Rationality, Abstract Thought.

So you propose that Satan operates outside the Will of God?  Satan was created by who?  God.  God created Satan, do you believe that was mistaken when He made Satan?  That He messed up or "things just went wrong?"  Why do we humans love to project their faults onto God?  Why do we project our same weakness, errors, and folly in planning onto God, as if He operates on the same plane we do?


I see you point but I challenge you to ask those questions again and this time think outside the box and hopefully you will understand the seriousness of your position.

Quote from: JohnnyCatholic12 on October 19, 2010, 02:33:55 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2010, 02:01:46 AM

Quote from: JohnnyCatholic12 on October 19, 2010, 01:58:39 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 19, 2010, 01:47:26 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2010, 01:35:50 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 19, 2010, 01:32:34 AM

We are the masterpiece of His Creation and by dragging us through this realm He gets back something greater than He created.

Although I do think, and I figure you won't agree, that man was meant to learn about good and evil after a certain amount of maturity, and Satan bypassed that plan by offering it to man too soon.

So we split the atom and make a bomb instead of giving electricity to the whole world.   We are not mature enough yet to handle the knowledge.

Bypassed the plan?
NOT A CHANCE, he's but a dog on a leash without any cards up his sleeve.
God's timing, like everything is supremely perfect. No one can usurp His plan, change it or take Him by surprise.

We blow ourselves up because we ate the good and evil without the wisdom of God to cover it and without life (the tree of) we only can reproduce death.

Truth.  People give Satan waaaaaaay too much credit.  Satan is under God's command.  Satan is not some monster running around blowing up God's plans.  Satan has a purpose and God uses Him for the purposes He chooses.

You mean like human sacrifice, for instance?  Like torture?  Like murder?  I'll give Satan credit for all of that and more.  As God said, this stuff didn't even enter his mind.

So you propose that Satan operates outside the Will of God?  Satan was created by who?  God.  God created Satan, do you believe that was mistaken when He made Satan?  That He messed up or "things just went wrong?"  Why do we humans love to project their faults onto God?  Why do we project our same weakness, errors, and folly in planning onto God, as if He operates on the same plane we do? 

If a pharmaceutical company creates a medicine that causes lets say blindness who do we fault, the medicine or the scientist?  Why do we hold the creature rather than the Creator responsible then?  God has a plan, and "is working ALL THINGS according to the counsel of HIS Will."  Note who Paul states is doing the working, not us, not Satan, God.  God is working.  Sometimes I feel as though we try and equate God to the "The Watchmaker" of Deism.  God doesn't make mistakes.

I think that God took full responsibility for the rebellion of his created beings and the suffering that has caused millions of his children when he sent his Son to die on the cross.  I am not saying God made mistakes.  I am more saying you can't get from here to there, from where we are to where he is taking us, which is his will--the glory that he wants to give us is his true will--without going through some version of this evil age first, given that the angels/ gods had the opportunity and ability to choose rebellion, as does man.

We guide, protect, and love our own children, teach them, hope and pray they will do the right thing, but at some point it is up to them.  I do believe that God will turn evil to good, but I don't believe in a mechanistic universe.  As a believer, he is very much a part of my life on a daily basis.

When it comes to God, and His will, vs. Man's will...It boils down to only two choices.

Is God Authoritarian? Controlling every single action of man, even determining, and enacting when a man will blink - by the force of his authoritarian will making, or causing that man to blink.

Is God Harmonious?  Anticipating the actions of man, and working through the actions of man flowing harmoniously and directing with subtle oneness the free flowing fluidity of his creation towards his destined goals, using the force of his harmonious will to direct the course as it flows - but letting it flow indeed, working through the flow to achieve the predestined glory of his will, taking all the flow with him into that glory, and allowing the flow to be an honest current.

If God is Authoritarian, it is his fault that we sin, and it is he who needs to repent, and not us.  Because we didn't sin, he sinned through us.  He's in authoritarian control, we had no say in the matter to sin or not.  Grace is not needed, and Christ's act was really an illusion, and vapourous, quite vain really...We don't need to be forgiven for what isn't our fault in the first place.

If God is Harmonious, the scriptures remain consistent, as does the character of God.  Grace is required for when the flow strays, and Grace indeed is available because God works through that flow's straying, having already anticipated it, and made the plans in his will before time even began, so as to ensure that the straying of the sinner would not go to waste, but would only increase the glory of his direction.

God is not helpless of course, and can be Authoritarian at times, he is not bound by the will of man by nature, but chooses to work through it instead, for the most part. God is ever working through the Harmoniousness that is his Will, and on the whole he is ever harmonising the will of man to his own by the means of love, and natural process, natural in the sense that it isn't a constructed facade, or artifice, a performance, a shallow play, or act, but is fluid, natural, and alive.

Afterall, is The Holy Spirit, God in us, not The Living Water?

Suffering is the harmonising of our will, with God's will, towards his ultimate goal; intimate, spiritually mature, glorified children; and being All in All, freely, honestly, in genuine life, love, and truth.

Quote from: Lefein on October 19, 2010, 01:18:00 AM

Quote
Did Adam and Eve eat the cupcake?

It depends, is the glass half empty, or half full?

It would seem to me that they took a nice bite out of Death, which is worse than any bucket of fecal matter.  Then again, I suppose they had to eat something horrendously disgusting and bitter to the stomach before they could realise that the cupcake is much yummier.

They took a big swig of the cow bucket, and never got to eat the cupcake.  But if I may be encouraging...so as not to sound so thoroughly negative about the whole situation...

The fruit of the knowledge of Good and Evil, by disobedience they learned the difference...They learned what Evil was.  But they also learned what it was to be Good, and how sweet it is, or will be.  The fruit of the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil wasn't just the tree of the knowledge of evil...it was the tree of the knowledge of good.

Adam and Eve knew God, but they never knew how good God is, and until they knew about evil, they'd never be able to understand or know how good God is.

I dont understand this reasoning about death. Joh 12:24  verily, verily, I say to you, if the grain of the wheat, having fallen to the earth, may not die, itself remaineth alone; and if it may die, it doth bear much fruit;
Heb 9:27  and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,
My Lord and Saviour has not given me to look at death as "Death, which is worse than any bucket of fecal matter..."

Im sorry you feel that way. Peace and Love Through Jesus

Death seems to be pretty bad to me.  The sting of Death is sin, and sin is what has lead to every single evil thing that has ever happened in the finite history of the universe.

Every rape, every murder, every theft, every lie, every broken home, and every abortion (a type of murder worse than "murder" in my opinion), and every cruel deed ever done was because of Death.

Death is the absence of Life, God is Life, and so the absence of God is Death - by that reasoning alone it is horrid beyond compare.

Though we may "cease to live in this body" (die in that sense) in order to resurrect to the new...Death (the absence of God/Life), the sting of which is sin, is worse indeed than anything ever to have been.

The word used in John 12:24 for "die" is;

http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=599

While the word for Death, like in Revelation is;

http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2288

 :cloud9: I've shared this before, but I was driving and He had me to see myself from up above, in the same situation, ie. driving. He pointed out to me, that as I made choices [in time] regarding my chosen path, He made choices [not limited by time] that made sure I went in the direction He wanted me to go, eventually. He simply put up "roadblocks", washed out roads, created detours, ect., to make me turn in the direction He wanted.

Down here bound by time, it APPEARED that I was making the decisions, but from His perspective, NOT bound by time, He was really calling all the shots, having seen the end from the beginning, and making whatever "adjustments" were needed to bring about the desired ending. He has a great deal to say in there about our expected end as He sees it. So......you do the math..... :laughing7: Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on October 19, 2010, 10:52:33 AM
:cloud9: I've shared this before, but I was driving and He had me to see myself from up above, in the same situation, ie. driving. He pointed out to me, that as I made choices [in time] regarding my chosen path, He made choices [not limited by time] that made sure I went in the direction He wanted me to go, eventually. He simply put up "roadblocks", washed out roads, created detours, ect., to make me turn in the direction He wanted.

Down here bound by time, it APPEARED that I was making the decisions, but from His perspective, NOT bound by time, He was really calling all the shots, having seen the end from the beginning, and making whatever "adjustments" were needed to bring about the desired ending. He has a great deal to say in there about our expected end as He sees it. So......you do the math..... :laughing7: Blessings....

I believe this, that when we are in Gods will for our life, things like this happen, I call it divine intervention, which is different to divine manipulation.

And throughout time God has done many divine interventions, when his creation steers off track, such as Noahs flood, to end the wickedness in the earth and also intervenes with certain people , such as the apostle Saul>Paul and the death of Christ.

Quote from: willieH on October 15, 2010, 08:39:35 PM
Do you percieve that...

...It is your FEET which decide WHERE your body shall GO?

Aren't you a married man?  :icon_jokercolor:

Quote...Or that your EARS decide WHAT you shall HEAR?

That's decided by my hearing aid.

Quote...Or your HANDS decide WHAT you shall TYPE on your computer keyboard?  :shakepoint:

Some people speak before they think.(tank), so I think the answer is "often"

Quote from: Lefein on October 19, 2010, 06:27:16 AM
Death seems to be pretty bad to me.  The sting of Death is sin, and sin is what has lead to every single evil thing that has ever happened in the finite history of the universe.

Every rape, every murder, every theft, every lie, every broken home, and every abortion (a type of murder worse than "murder" in my opinion), and every cruel deed ever done was because of Death.

Death is the absence of Life, God is Life, and so the absence of God is Death - by that reasoning alone it is horrid beyond compare.

Though we may "cease to live in this body" (die in that sense) in order to resurrect to the new...Death (the absence of God/Life), the sting of which is sin, is worse indeed than anything ever to have been.

The word used in John 12:24 for "die" is;

http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=599

While the word for Death, like in Revelation is;

http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2288

Quote"Behold you among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvelously; for I will work a work in your days, which you will not believe, though it be told you. For, lo, I raise up the Chaldean, that bitter and hasty which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwelling places that are not their's. They are TERRIBLE and DREADFUL... more FIERCE than the evening WOLVES... They shall come all for VIOLENCE... they shall deride every strong hold... Then shall his mind change, and he shall pass over, and offend, imputing this power unto his god".

-Habakkuk-1:5-11

These verses are clearly illustrating God creating death and violence, in a word EVIL.  To which we typically respond:

Quote"We are wicked, but they far more! Will you [God], Who cannot allow sin in any form, stand idly by while they swallow us up? Should You be silent while the wicked destroy those who are better than they?" (Habakkuk 1:13, The Living Bible).

Here a list of verses found at http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html which help drive home the point that God, not Satan, not man, but GOD is the author of evil:

Quote"I create EVIL" (Isa. 45:7)

Out of God's mouth "proceeds...EVIL" (Lam. 3:38).

"...an experience of EVIL has God given to the sons of man..." (Ecc. 1:13, Concordant Liter Old Testament).

"...I [God] will raise up EVIL against thee..." (II Sam. 12:11).

"...has not the Potter [God] the right... to make... one [vessel] for DISHONOR?" (Rom. 9:19-25).

"I [God] created the waster to DESTROY" (Isa. 54:16).

"The Lord has made...the WICKED for the day of EVIL" (Prov. 16:4).

"...I [God] will bring EVIL from the north, and a great DESTRUCTION (Jer. 4:6).

"...Hear, O earth: behold, I [God] will bring EVIL upon this people..." (Jer. 6:19).

God told a "lying spirit" to "...go forth, and do so [lie]" (I Kings 22:22).

"He [God] turned their heart to HATE His people..." (Psalm 105:25).

"Behold I [God] frame EVIL against you..." (Jer. 18:11).

"For God locks up all together in STUBBORNNESS [that's an evil]..." (Rom. 11:32).

"O Lord, why have You MADE us TO ERR from your ways..." (Isa. 63:17).

"...so shall the Lord bring upon you ALL EVIL THINGS..." (Josh. 23:15).

"...shall there be EVIL in a city, and the Lord has not done it?" (Amos 3:6).

"Yet He [God] is SCOURGING [severely beating] every son to whom He is receiving" (Heb. 12:5).

"What? Shall we receive good at the hand of God and shall we not receive EVIL" (Job 2:10).

"Thus saith the Lord of hosts... go and SMITE Amalek... DESTROY... SLAY both man and woman, infant and suckling..." (I Sam. 15:2-3).

"...God shall send them strong DELUSION, that they should believe A LIE" (II Thes. 2:11).

Again people give Satan way too much credit when really he is just a servant of God, he does the Lord's Will.  Everything God created serves a purpose, including Satan.  God created everything, including evil for an exact reason and purpose. 

When something evil happens to me, I never blame God.  Nor will I ever blame God.

My testimony is that only good gifts come from God.  We see in Job that God removes his protection from Job to allow Satan to do his evil deeds.  God himself does nothing evil to Job.  Satan does it, and Satan comes up with the nature of every evil thing done out of his own foul spirit.

God will sometimes come against his enemies directly.  It's not really a fair fight, but it is the prerogative of a long suffering God to finally throw up his hands, so to speak [cite: the Israelites not permitted to enter the promised land].

God has given us the rules to stay within his protection.  We break them at our own peril, not because God will come after us, but because we are now under a different jurisdiction--that of Satan [cite: Cain, David].

Likewise, if we remain under God's jurisdiction, Satan might come after us out of envy and hatred [like Cain after Abel] but God will always turn it to good, and we will always be victorious through him [cite: Joseph and his brothers].

This is my own primitive and simple belief system out of which I have always operated.  It has never failed me. 

23Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

24Grace be with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen.

--Eph 6

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 19, 2010, 01:49:25 PM

Quote from: willieH on October 15, 2010, 08:39:35 PM
Do you percieve that...

Quote...Or that your EARS decide WHAT you shall HEAR?

That's decided by my hearing aid.

Those that are deaf may hear and those that are blind may see, for the lord is near to call upon and nay it is not me but it is he whos shoe latchet I am unworthy to untie.

Quote...Or your HANDS decide WHAT you shall TYPE on your computer keyboard?  :shakepoint:

Some people speak before they think.(tank), so I think the answer is "often"

Indeed for it is not I who speak but it is Christ in me who thinketh, thanketh and a tanketh!

Let Judah Go Up First

by

Randy Felton

How does one communicate with God? This is a question asked by Dr. Roy Blizzard in his book Let Judah Go Up First. This lesson is taken from his book. We are created in God's image and likeness and are to fellowship intimately with Him. This is to be a continual relationship, but we are also thrust into life's daily battles. How do we win? A good start in answering this question is found in Ephesians 6:12. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the Heavenly realms. We are in a struggle that is spiritual in nature.
The Tanakh, what we call the Old Testament, is a type and shadow of things to come as well as an historical account. We will look at the historical perspective and see what it may shadow. In the book of Judges, chapter 1, verses 1-12, Israel is preparing for battle and they inquire of the Lord, Who will be the first to go up and fight for us against the Canaanites? The Lord tells them ...Judah is to go. Later, in Judges 20:18 we find, ...who of us shall go first to fight against the Benjamites? The Lord replied, Judah shall go first.

There were twelve tribes of Israel. Why should Judah be called upon to go up first? The Hebrew word translated as Judah is used many times in English as PRAISE. So the scripture could be translated as, LET PRAISE GO UP FIRST. This is good advice for us when facing struggles or battles. Let us first praise. This is both an act of faith and submission. Praise God before the battle is entered; anyone can praise when the battle is over and won. Only by faith can we praise at the start.

We want to praise and praise accurately. To help us understand what this is about, we will look into some of the Hebrew words translated as praise.

BARACH (Bar Rach) - To kneel, to bless, to adore with bended knee. When used by man in reference to God, it means to endure with power for success, prosperity and long life. In Psalm 34:2, barach is translated as BLESS and in Psalm 103:1-2, barach is translated to mean WORSHIP.

HALAL (Hah Lahl) - The root is to shout, cry aloud. See Psalm 148:1-5, Isaiah 62:9, Psalm 135:1-3a. Try substituting "shout" for "praise" in these passages. The sense is to shout for joy, to rejoice, to be sincerely and deeply thankful.

TEHILLAH (The Hi Lah) - This word for praise is also translated as "Psalm." David uses this word in Psalms 48:11, 34:2 and 100:4. The noun is a song of thanksgiving. The theme of both noun and verb is verbal expression, an interweaving of belief and joy.

GADAL (Gah Dahl) - Often translated "magnify," it is used as a synonym of praise. In Psalms 34:4 and 69:31, it literally means "to cause to become great." Gadal calls the worshipper to ascribe greatness to the Lord and His name.

ZAMAR (Zah Mar) - To make music to God. Remember the word "tehillah?" It is very similar meaning a Psalm. A Psalm may be instrumental or vocal. Zamar indicates instrumental accompaniment. A zimra is a song or music. The Sabbath book of table songs, still in use today, is called zimarot, the plural for zimra.

SHIR (Sheer) - Meaning a song, more specifically, vocal music. The term combined with others to indicate a choral group. Shir and zamar are used alternately in Psalms 21:4, 104:33, 57:8, 27:6, 13:6 and 33:2.

SHAVACH (Shav Ach) - To commend, to congratulate, to laud. This word parallels some of the words we have already looked at. Refer to Psalms 63:4, 117:1, 147:12 and 145:4. The idea of parallelism is often used in Hebrew poetry. This occurs when the same information or idea is stated in more than one way, one verse reinforcing the other.

RUM (Room) - The basic meaning is height and it is used to parallel many of the preceding words. Rum is used symbolically to express such lofty notions as glory, exaltation and to extol. See Psalms 30:2, 66:17, 149:6. We can also see the following parallels: rum to halal in Psalm 107:32; rum to barach in Psalm 145:1 and rum to gadal in Psalm 34:4.

RANAN (Rah Nahn) - To cry out, shout for joy or to give a ringing cry. It parallels joy, rejoicing, praise and jubilation in poetry. Found in Psalms 5:12, 67:5, 90:14 and 92:5, the usage indicates that the highest mood of the Hebrew religion is joy.

YADAH (Yah Dah) - The literal root is to throw or to cast. When used in text, it means to confess or declare Who God is and what He does. See Psalms 105:1, 106:1 for public confession of God's attributes. When yadah is used in the context of praise, it means to confess or declare the attributes of God. When yadah is used in the context of prayer, it still retains the root meaning of confession. Instead of the confession of God's attributes, it becomes the confession of our sins to God. Yadah has a two-fold meaning: the confession of God's attributes and the confession of our shortcoming or sins. Judah comes from the root, yadah.

For us to let Judah go up first is to recognize that our battles are spiritual and must be fought in the spirit. When we let Judah go up first, we confess the attributes of God (yadah-praise), we realize Who and What God is. This brings us to realize and confess our own inadequacies (yadah-prayer). We confess our sins, our need for repentance and reconciliation. This allows us to establish a proper relationship with God. This very idea is implied in the "disciples prayer." When we enter into spiritual warfare - "Let Judah Go Up First!" Begin to praise God by faith, confess Who He is, confess who you are, confess your sins and be reconciled. Continue by confessing forgiveness, confess God's mercy, confess God's love and confess God's victory! Kneel, cry aloud, magnify the Lord, sing, exalt, shout, and give thanks. After this, begin to confess God's Word concerning the situation. Then and only then, are you ready to go into battle.

This lesson was prepared from the book "Let Judah Go Up First" by Dr. Roy Blizzard. The Hebrew text for all Old Testament references is "The Jewish Publications Society Bible." Therefore, some of the verse numbers may differ slightly from those found in the English text. Used with Permission.

ACKNOWLEDGMENTS These lessons were prepared by the Randy Felton for use by him and his students in lecture classes. This is not intended to be a work that will "stand alone," but as a study guide and a compilation of notes for classroom use. This material may not be copied or reproduced without written permission of the author.

Additional copies may be ordered from:

Potter's Clay Ministries, Inc.
417 NW 42nd Street
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma 73118

http://www.haydid.org/ranjudah.htm

Indeed praise is a powerful weapon. It has been used throughout the old testament many times to defeat the enemy, it changes the atmosphere and allows God to do his work better.

Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2010, 04:22:18 PM
When something evil happens to me, I never blame God.  Nor will I ever blame God.

My testimony is that only good gifts come from God.  We see in Job that God removes his protection from Job to allow Satan to do his evil deeds.  God himself does nothing evil to Job.  Satan does it, and Satan comes up with the nature of every evil thing done out of his own foul spirit.

God will sometimes come against his enemies directly.  It's not really a fair fight, but it is the prerogative of a long suffering God to finally throw up his hands, so to speak [cite: the Israelites not permitted to enter the promised land].

God has given us the rules to stay within his protection.  We break them at our own peril, not because God will come after us, but because we are now under a different jurisdiction--that of Satan [cite: Cain, David].

Likewise, if we remain under God's jurisdiction, Satan might come after us out of envy and hatred [like Cain after Abel] but God will always turn it to good, and we will always be victorious through him [cite: Joseph and his brothers].

This is my own primitive and simple belief system out of which I have always operated.  It has never failed me. 

23Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

24Grace be with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen.

--Eph 6

:cloud9: Me, too, Molly..... :thumbsup:

 :cloud9: Good article, Molly......that first Hebrew word there came up in my prayer language the first time He added to it. I knew it sounded familiar, and I dug and dug until I found it. It was in the beginning of my walk, and it was a faith builder for me to see that. He added Zachariah one time, when He wanted me in that book, but the way it came out in the accent, it didn't register to me the first 3 times, that He actually had me saying, Zachariah, LOL. The funny part was, not 5 minutes after I got the message, He sent a friend of mine to my house, to tell me, "The Lord told me to tell you He wants you to read Zachariah." I just love it when He does stuff like that......... :laughing7:  He's so personal. Blessings....

Here a list of verses found at http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html which help drive home the point that God, not Satan, not man, but GOD is the author of evil:


God only does evil towards them that do evil. Eye for an eye tooth for a tooth. In the old covenant if you punch God (and his people), he would punch you back, but in the new covenant if you punch God (and his people) he forgives, until the end, when he gets his revenge on all his enemies.

Quote from: thinktank on October 19, 2010, 06:41:32 PM


Here a list of verses found at http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html which help drive home the point that God, not Satan, not man, but GOD is the author of evil:


God only does evil towards them that do evil. Eye for an eye tooth for a tooth. In the old covenant if you punch God (and his people), he would punch you back, but in the new covenant if you punch God (and his people) he forgives, until the end, when he gets his revenge on all his enemies.

"For I am the Lord, I do not change."
- Malachi 3:6
I am aware we are under a new covenant however that doesn't change the fact that God is the creator of evil.  God created everything in the universe.  Who created the Tree of Knowledge of Good and EVIL?  Not Satan, but GOD.  Satan does evil, and is behind much evil, but who ultimately is behind Satan?  Who created Satan?  Who allows Satan to perform his work, as per the book of Job?  God.  Satan can only only do what God allows him to do.  He's just another created being, who is performing the work he was created for.  Because we know that according Ephesians 1:11 "The Lord works ALL things according to the counsel of His Will."  Note how He works ALL things, which means everything according the counsel of HIS WILL, not Satan's, and not man's.

It's not about revenge and God doesn't really have enemies, even if some people think they are.  In reality no one can compete with the majestic Glory of God to even be considered God's enemy.  God created all beings, "some for honor and some for dishonor," every being, every creature is fulfilling the purpose that God gave it.  God is not seeking "revenge" on anyone and it's terrible to attribute such pettiness to the Lord, it sounds like the talk of hell preachers.  God loves all His creation and He's all about gentle judgment and chastisement.  The suffering we go through now can not even compare to the glory that He has prepared for us.  Some invited earlier than others, but the party is for everyone.

God made light, inevitably shadows come simultaneously with it.

Light is untouched by shadows, it merely casts them where it does not illuminate the place with itself.

Hi;
Seems to be that the Father actually knows what He is doing and lets us know in His good time.
Also many seem to claim to know Christ personally and back up the claim with 'demonstrations of power'

Matt 7;21-23   " Not every one that says to Me Lord! Lord! shall enter the kingdom of the heavens. Many will say to Me,
' Lord! Lord! did we not cast out demons in your name, and prophesy in your name, and perform many works of power in your name?'
And then I will say to them, I have NEVER acknowledged you, depart from Me you workers of lawlessness."

Heaps of modern so-called ministers seem to fit that description.

 :cloud9: The description above is the Pentecost level, ie. a TASTE of the kingdom to come that we enter into via Tabernacles. So those He didn't know, doesn't mean they were not His, but rather that they didn't PRESS IN for more than a TASTE. To "know" is to become one with, as Adam knew his WIFE and she conceived. There are many concubines, but few "Queens". My  :2c:

Quote from: Cardinal on October 20, 2010, 03:33:32 PM
:cloud9: The description above is the Pentecost level, ie. a TASTE of the kingdom to come that we enter into via Tabernacles. So those He didn't know, doesn't mean they were not His, but rather that they didn't PRESS IN for more than a TASTE. To "know" is to become one with, as Adam knew his WIFE and she conceived. There are many concubines, but few "Queens". My  :2c:

:2thumbs:

willieH: Hi brother D...

Been away for a week, just catching up in this thread...  :wink2:

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 18, 2010, 09:55:50 PM

Quote from: Lefein on October 18, 2010, 07:11:54 PM

I give my child a choice between having a cupcake for desert, and a rotten bucket full of cow diarrhea covered in maggots.

Fascinating.

Amen David...  :thumbsup:

Early on the child is "given choice" via recommended "pathways" into the future, ...including, ...the recommendation to go to college,  ...along with the recommendation to NOT take drugs while on that pathway... 

Very fascinating how many "choose" the latter over the former...  :sigh:  (Certainly equally as bad as choosing the CD covered in maggots over the cupcake...  :sigh:  A good mouthwashing will remedy that "bad choice")...

And before either "choice" has been made (college/drugs)...

God had already decided the total knowledge a "college grad" could possibly achieve in that education, by raising it to its maximum... (by using his massive 2% of brainpower issued), ...as well deciding what would or would NOT, ...ADDICT, even KILL the human body...  :dontknow:  Creating BOTH... the "body", and the substances which could ADDICT it!

So shall we therefore be down on God for only letting us reach the lofty level of numbSKULLS (at MOST), ...or that He made our bodies capable of painful, sorrowful, even deadly, ...addiction?

Or should we KNOW that HE has purpose in BOTH the numbskull, ...I mean INTELLECTUAL, ...and the DRUG ADDICT, as HE is revealing HIS  KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... through the LIVING/DYING actions of human beings, ...be they INTELLECTS (which is quite a stretch  :laughing7:) that become CHEMISTS and invent DRUG formulas with their "education", ...or the poor "mischoosing" ADDICT which may never have become an ADDICT if not for the CHEMIST?

The oft used and tired arguement, that men are "puppets or robots", simply because they are subject to the decided DIRECTIVES of YHVH, is so spiritually surface as to be pitied... :pitiful: 

The Scripture is PLAIN and DIRECT in stating that the members of the body of CHRIST are illustrated and equated to the members of the human body -- 1 Cor 12:12-26 -- which members are SUBJECT to the HEAD and ITS decisions -- 1 Cor 11:3 -- the HEAD of ...EVERY MAN (not just some)... is CHRIST -- EVERY MAN

Get used to it folks... To be SUBJECT to the decisions of YHVH and HIS WORD, is an ETERNAL and RIGHT and FREE state of BEING... NOT an IMPRISONMENT which demotes us to "robots or puppets"!

A SPIRITUAL "state of being" which is PERMEATED and SUBJECT to the HEAD and its decisions on our behalf (as members)...  Just as we logically deduce that the Human "head" decides for the totality of the members of ITS body... that which is the best course to take in LIFE.  :dontknow:

willieH: Hi Tank...   :Sparkletooth:

Your buddy   :friendstu:  willieH is back!  :laughing7:

Quote from: thinktank on October 19, 2010, 06:41:32 PM
Here a list of verses found at http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html which help drive home the point that God, not Satan, not man, but GOD is the author of evil:

God only does evil towards them that do evil. Eye for an eye tooth for a tooth. In the old covenant if you punch God (and his people), he would punch you back, but in the new covenant if you punch God (and his people) he forgives, until the end, when he gets his revenge on all his enemies.

According to you,  ...GOD is the ultimate HYPOCRITE.  Telling us to LOVE, BLESS & FORGIVE our enemies, and in doing so, become "PERFECT" as He is -- Matt 5:44-48 -- then, later... GETS "REVENGE" on them?... :rolleye:

Why should He want "revenge" on beings that He had foreknowledge of their every move? :omg:

Hate to break this to you Tank (and spoil your "revenge party"), ...but He ...SO LOVES the WORLD... (and NEVER CHANGES)... If He "so loved" the WORLD, then He DOES love the WORLD, and always WILL love the WORLD...  :dontknow:

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 18, 2010, 11:24:28 PM

Quote from: Lefein on October 18, 2010, 07:11:54 PM
I give my child a choice between having a cupcake for desert, and a rotten bucket full of cow diarrhea covered in maggots.

Maggots are nutritious... Yummy

:laughing7:

Quote from: jabcat on October 19, 2010, 01:28:35 AM
That's the whole "experience of evil", isn't it?  The concept I've been trying to get my mind around for some time.  The "lowered into this realm".  The "all turned to disobedience so He can have mercy on all"...

Good word.   :thumbsup:

I second David, amen James...

willieH: Hi Molly...  :happygrin:

Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2010, 01:32:00 AM
Eve was deceived by the Nacash [serpent].  But, Adam wasn't.

"eyes" set upon the natural instead of the spiritual... Nachash is truly an ENCHANTMENT... not a slithering reptile... no "talking" snake, rather, the INNER movement of the heart of man (/woman)... which is inherently WICKED above ALL THINGS -- Jer 17:9 -- including "snakes"  :grin:

Doesn't matter anyway, ...Adam ate... and THEN, the deal was done... for their EYES were not OPENED until ADAM ate -- Gen 3:6-7  :dontknow:

Eve was DECIEVED... Adam just plain, DISOBEYED the command of GOD which was EXCLUSIVELY given to HIM ...before EVE was even on the scene! -- Gen 2:18-19 -- (the "HEAD" of the woman -- 1 Cor 11:3).

Quote from: willieH on October 26, 2010, 08:10:41 AM
willieH: Hi Tank...   :Sparkletooth:

Your buddy   :friendstu:  willieH is back!  :laughing7:

Quote from: thinktank on October 19, 2010, 06:41:32 PM
Here a list of verses found at http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html which help drive home the point that God, not Satan, not man, but GOD is the author of evil:

God only does evil towards them that do evil. Eye for an eye tooth for a tooth. In the old covenant if you punch God (and his people), he would punch you back, but in the new covenant if you punch God (and his people) he forgives, until the end, when he gets his revenge on all his enemies.

According to you,  ...GOD is the ultimate HYPOCRITE.  Telling us to LOVE, BLESS & FORGIVE our enemies, and in doing so, become "PERFECT" as He is -- Matt 5:44-48 -- then, later... GETS "REVENGE" on them?... :rolleye:

Why should He want "revenge" on beings that He had foreknowledge of their every move? :omg:

Hate to break this to you Tank (and spoil your "revenge party"), ...but He ...SO LOVES the WORLD... (and NEVER CHANGES)... If He "so loved" the WORLD, then He DOES love the WORLD, and always WILL love the WORLD...  :dontknow:

...willieH  :cloud9:

What do I need revenge for  :laughing7: my idea of revenge is as simple as jumping in the boxing ring with anyone I need to settle a score with, and hopefuly win  :laughing7:. Gods idea of revenge though is far different, because he doesn't look at individuals, he judges the entire world and all its sin as one package, look at the book of revelation and trumpet judgments and the warnings of Christ, I am amazed you miss the countless scriptures that talk about the day of the lord. Jesus tells us to bless and forgive our enemies, from his day all the way till the end, but judgment will take place upon the earth on those who insist on destroying the earth. His judgment will cause many to repent from their evil ways while others will be taken out of the way for his new Christ centered Government upon the earth where peace dwells. Beware of counterfeit movements though, some might try and establish the kingdom of Christ via political and/or military force, forcing christian worship before Christ returns, which would not be the true kingdom.

Quote from: willieH on October 26, 2010, 08:16:34 AM

Quote from: jabcat on October 19, 2010, 01:28:35 AM
That's the whole "experience of evil", isn't it?  The concept I've been trying to get my mind around for some time.  The "lowered into this realm".  The "all turned to disobedience so He can have mercy on all"...

Good word.   :thumbsup:

I second David, amen James...

...willieH  :happy3:

YES!

Quote from: thinktank on October 26, 2010, 03:18:27 PM

Quote from: willieH on October 26, 2010, 08:10:41 AM
willieH: Hi Tank...   :Sparkletooth:

Your buddy   :friendstu:  willieH is back!  :laughing7:

Quote from: thinktank on October 19, 2010, 06:41:32 PM
Here a list of verses found at http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html which help drive home the point that God, not Satan, not man, but GOD is the author of evil:

God only does evil towards them that do evil. Eye for an eye tooth for a tooth. In the old covenant if you punch God (and his people), he would punch you back, but in the new covenant if you punch God (and his people) he forgives, until the end, when he gets his revenge on all his enemies.

According to you,  ...GOD is the ultimate HYPOCRITE.  Telling us to LOVE, BLESS & FORGIVE our enemies, and in doing so, become "PERFECT" as He is -- Matt 5:44-48 -- then, later... GETS "REVENGE" on them?... :rolleye:

Why should He want "revenge" on beings that He had foreknowledge of their every move? :omg:

Hate to break this to you Tank (and spoil your "revenge party"), ...but He ...SO LOVES the WORLD... (and NEVER CHANGES)... If He "so loved" the WORLD, then He DOES love the WORLD, and always WILL love the WORLD...  :dontknow:

...willieH  :cloud9:

What do I need revenge for  :laughing7: my idea of revenge is as simple as jumping in the boxing ring with anyone I need to settle a score with, and hopefuly win  :laughing7:. Gods idea of revenge though is far different, because he doesn't look at individuals, he judges the entire world and all its sin as one package, look at the book of revelation and trumpet judgments and the warnings of Christ, I am amazed you miss the countless scriptures that talk about the day of the lord. Jesus tells us to bless and forgive our enemies, from his day all the way till the end, but judgment will take place upon the earth on those who insist on destroying the earth. His judgment will cause many to repent from their evil ways while others will be taken out of the way for his new Christ centered Government upon the earth where peace dwells. Beware of counterfeit movements though, some might try and establish the kingdom of Christ via political and/or military force, forcing christian worship before Christ returns, which would not be the true kingdom.

To Day...IS THE DAY OF THE LORD, and judgement IS taking place NOW in those who have an ear to hear.
Rom 8:22  For we know that, all creation, is sighing together, and travailing-in-birth-throes together until the present,—

To Day...IS THE DAY OF THE LORD, and judgement IS taking place NOW in those who have an ear to hear.
Rom 8:22  For we know that, all creation, is sighing together, and travailing-in-birth-throes together until the present,—


It's got to come to an end at some point though right?, otherwise sin will continue for eternity.

Hab 2:3  For yet is the vision for an appointed time, still, it presseth towards an end, and will not deceive,—if it tarry, wait thou for it, for it, surely cometh,—will not be too late.

Quote from: thinktank on October 26, 2010, 04:42:23 PM
To Day...IS THE DAY OF THE LORD, and judgement IS taking place NOW in those who have an ear to hear.
Rom 8:22  For we know that, all creation, is sighing together, and travailing-in-birth-throes together until the present,—


It's got to come to an end at some point though right?, otherwise sin will continue for eternity.

Yea, the year 2015 is what I have been reading. Blood moons on Holy days and all that.  :grin:
http://skepticdave.blogspot.com/2009/03/2015-is-end-of-world-not-2012.html

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=63076

CHB

willieH: Hi Tank...   :Sparkletooth:

It is quite interesting that the "EYES and MOUTH" are set in FRONT of the face, quick to "SEE" and "SPEAK" in a 180 degree spectrum...

While the EARS are set at the SIDE of the face, and encompass within their HEARING -- 360 degrees

As MANY mouths and eyes busily blab of their supposed knowledge to the world, that GOD so LOVES, ...the MANY preach of FEAR and DESTRUCTION, and sorrowfully as their mouths and eyes take precedence, fail to HEAR the ONE that SURROUNDS them. :pitiful:

Quote from: thinktank on October 26, 2010, 03:18:27 PM
What do I need revenge for  :laughing7: my idea of revenge is as simple as jumping in the boxing ring with anyone I need to settle a score with, and hopefuly win  :laughing7:.

:Yeahright:  "REVENGE" is a spirit, within your spirit, that does NOT promote PEACE, ...so, IN that spirit, ...you attempt to bring the GOD of PEACE -- Rom 15:33 -- Phil 4:9 -- Heb 13:20 -- 1 Cor 14:33 -- down to your "REVENGEFUL" level... preaching THAT hypocrisy in doing so, ...while belittling Him and HIS PEACE, in the process...  :sigh:

Quote from: thinktank on October 26, 2010, 03:18:27 PM
Gods idea of revenge though is far different, because he doesn't look at individuals, he judges the entire world and all its sin as one package, look at the book of revelation and trumpet judgments and the warnings of Christ, I am amazed you miss the countless scriptures that talk about the day of the lord.

FIRST --- Where in the Book of Revelation is noted "REVENGE", Tank?  :dontknow:

"REVENGE" is something that lives in YOU, not in God.  He has no REASON to seek REVENGE, for He DECLARED ALL THINGS before they occured -- Isaiah 46:10 -- and those events have taken place as HE NOTED they would.

SECOND --- You continue to IGNORE Scriptures which note that we are IN the DAY of YHVH for ALL generations appear IN IT:

Gen 2:4 --- THESE are the generations of the heavens and the earth WHEN they were created, in the DAY that YHVH made the earth and the heavens.

Quote from: thinktank on October 26, 2010, 03:18:27 PMJesus tells us to bless and forgive our enemies, from his day all the way till the end, but judgment will take place upon the earth on those who insist on destroying the earth.

FIRST --- It is YOU which IGNORE Scripture Tank... for the very words of CHRIST say that the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD is NOW -- John 12:31

SECOND --- an unfocused vision remains upon the NATURAL, and so understanding shall continue to elude you.  You (and all other men) "destroy" the "earth" as you SIN in IT... therefore the JUDGMENT of YHVH and the accompanying wrath of it, comes against you (and all other men) -- Rom 1:18 -- The WRATH of YHVH ...IS... (not will be) revealed against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men [sin] who hold the truth (which IS the WORD of YHVH -- John 14:6), ...in unrighteousness... 

Which is why MANY that claim to represent Him, ...shall mourn amidst their false presentation of Him -- Matt 7:22-23

THIRD --- you continue to present the GOD of PEACE as a deciever... instructing His followers to do one thing (bless, love and pray for enemies), and that in following this instruction emulates Him -- Matt 5:48 -- and then (according to YOU), He TURNS AROUND and sets "enemies" of His, ablaze with harsh judgment...  :thumbdown:

Quote from: thinktank on October 26, 2010, 03:18:27 PM
His judgment will cause many to repent from their evil ways while others will be taken out of the way for his new Christ centered Government upon the earth where peace dwells.

More Scriptureless, self oriented him-haw.  Blabbing a SANDY opinion instead of establishing it upon the ROCK...  :sigh:

FIRST --- "Repentence" is not generated of, and by, the heart of man... MAN is LED to "repent" by the goodness of GOD -- Rom 2:4 -- which DRAGS him to the WORD -- John 6:44 -- that it might be revealed unto the man BY the WORD -- Matt 11:27 -- who and what HE IS... Which is WICKED, ABOVE ALL THINGS -- Jer 17:9

SECOND --- God is NOT PARTIAL to any MAN, ...so what He is about DOING for one, He shall DO for all others -- Acts 10:34 (and 9 other verses) -- If one is LED to "repent" by God, then his IMPARTIALITY requires Him to lead ALL to "repentence" which is indeed, HIS STATED INTENTION -- 2 Pet 3:9

Quote from: thinktank on October 26, 2010, 03:18:27 PM
Beware of counterfeit movements though, some might try and establish the kingdom of Christ via political and/or military force, forcing christian worship before Christ returns, which would not be the true kingdom.

As I see it, this is nothing but your imagination, which is born of religion, not of the WORD. 

When one is immersed in the Kingdom, one shall not fear "counterfeit" movements... One shall be at PEACE in the WORD, without such fears, for they are CAST OUT by the WORD -- 1 John 4:18

The most sorrowful point that you make in all this is --- the "COUNTERFEIT" of which you SPEAK, ...has been presented, is being presented, and will be presented, ...by the MANY -- Matt 7:22-23 -- Matt 24:5 -- which are "come in the NAME" of CHRIST, ...but preaching of Him falsely... not even realizing that THEY THEMSELVES are decieved OF THEMSELVES... and that they, as hypocrites, ...unknowingly WARN against THEMSELVES -- John 9:41 --  :sigh: 

Quote from: CHB on October 26, 2010, 09:52:36 PM

Quote from: thinktank on October 26, 2010, 04:42:23 PM
To Day...IS THE DAY OF THE LORD, and judgement IS taking place NOW in those who have an ear to hear.
Rom 8:22  For we know that, all creation, is sighing together, and travailing-in-birth-throes together until the present,—


It's got to come to an end at some point though right?, otherwise sin will continue for eternity.

Yea, the year 2015 is what I have been reading. Blood moons on Holy days and all that.  :grin:
http://skepticdave.blogspot.com/2009/03/2015-is-end-of-world-not-2012.html (http://skepticdave.blogspot.com/2009/03/2015-is-end-of-world-not-2012.html)

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=63076 (http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=63076)

CHB

Not all agree: http://www.escapeallthesethings.com/2015-blood-eclipses.htm (http://www.escapeallthesethings.com/2015-blood-eclipses.htm)

What Biltz missed is that in the following chapters, Revelation reveals the cause of not only the eclipses, but the related global great earthquake, meteorite storms and asteroid (http://www.escapeallthesethings.com/asteroid-bible.htm) ocean impact. It describes a literal "death star" called Wormwood visible in the sky after all the above pass. This catastrophic progression is similar to the rumors of a doomsday star originally announced by NASA and misnamed Planet X which serious astronomers now discount and most everyone else considers a hoax (thanks in part to misinformation predicting its arrival on May 15, 2003).

Now WW, I am all out of ashes.

I was just reading those two websites today, didn't really think they held much credence.  According to Gary these things have already happened in 70AD anyway.
The Coming of Christ in 70AD
http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew6/D6-TheCor

CHB

That link's not working C...let's try this one

http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew6/D6-TheComingOfChristIn70AD.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Fulfilled_Prophecy/Ch5.html

willieH: Hi Tank...   :Sparkletooth:

It is quite interesting that the "EYES and MOUTH" are set in FRONT of the face, quick to "SEE" and "SPEAK" in a 180 degree spectrum...

While the EARS are set at the SIDE of the face, and encompass within their HEARING -- 360 degrees

As MANY mouths and eyes busily blab of their supposed knowledge to the world, that GOD so LOVES, ...the MANY preach of FEAR and DESTRUCTION, and sorrowfully as their mouths and eyes take precedence, fail to HEAR the ONE that SURROUNDS them. :pitiful:


Good hearing and vision is neccessary to know the whole plan of God. What you fail to comprehend is that God disciplines his creation. At the time of the end men will be destroying the earth according to scripture as they do today.



"REVENGE" is a spirit, within your spirit, that does NOT promote PEACE, ...so, IN that spirit, ...you attempt to bring the GOD of PEACE -- Rom 15:33 -- Phil 4:9 -- Heb 13:20 -- 1 Cor 14:33 -- down to your "REVENGEFUL" level... preaching THAT hypocrisy in doing so, ...while belittling Him and HIS PEACE, in the process...  :sigh:

Revenge is a spirit huh? So you do believe that demons/unclean spirits exist afterall.
I suppose you don't know what revenge is, being that you believe you are arived at perfection. How blind are those who believe they have arrived, not perceiving that they have fallen into pride of life, seeing themselves as better than others and having to belittle others to make themsleves look better. This is a sad strategy of many in todays world, why do we have to belittle others to make ourselves look good, entire newspapers are dedicated towards pointing out the faults in celebrities etc, so that people can feel good about themselves. Next time try uplifting people instead of tearing them down and you might be blessed, for by tearing others down you are tearing yourself down into destruction.

1 Thessalonians 4:6   
That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.


FIRST --- Where in the Book of Revelation is noted "REVENGE", Tank?  :dontknow:

"REVENGE" is something that lives in YOU, not in God.  He has no REASON to seek REVENGE, for He DECLARED ALL THINGS before they occured -- Isaiah 46:10 -- and those events have taken place as HE NOTED they would.

Well now you are provoking me to show you scriptures of wrath. You are already sweating after me posting a small post on judgement, can you handle even one scripture?


Psalm 99:8   
Thou answeredst them, O Lord our God: thou wast a God that forgavest them, though thou tookest vengeance of their inventions


Isaiah 35:4 
Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.

God will save his people from vengeance but only if they follow him. The hypocrites and those who are christian in name only will be left with the wicked to experience judgement.


Romans 12:19
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.


2 Thessalonians 1:8   
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:


Nahum 1:2   
God is jealous, and the Lord revengeth; the Lord revengeth, and is furious; the Lord will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.


To show you that man has vengeance

Proverbs 6:34   
For jealousy is the rage of a man: therefore he will not spare in the day of vengeance.

These scriptures are only a few that speak of vengeance. You asked for them so you got them.

Luke 21
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

All things fullfilled, sounds like its talking about the end, not something that happened in 70AD

FIRST --- It is YOU which IGNORE Scripture Tank... for the very words of CHRIST say that the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD is NOW -- John 12:31

There are many contradictory statements in the bible. Unless you compliment the scriptures with each other you will only have half the picture. It seems to be you are only interested in half the bible and throw out the other half to suit your fancy.


SECOND --- an unfocused vision remains upon the NATURAL, and so understanding shall continue to elude you.  You (and all other men) "destroy" the "earth" as you SIN in IT... therefore the JUDGMENT of YHVH and the accompanying wrath of it, comes against you (and all other men) -- Rom 1:18 -- The WRATH of YHVH ...IS... (not will be) revealed against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men [sin] who hold the truth (which IS the WORD of YHVH -- John 14:6), ...in unrighteousness...

Which is why MANY that claim to represent Him, ...shall mourn amidst their false presentation of Him -- Matt 7:22-23

Your a funny guy. You often do this and trip yourself over with your own arguments.

you say

willie H "THERE IS NO Vengeance ThinkTANK"
""""""
"""""""

Willie"Thinktank there is wrath on SInners like you thinktank. 
willie"hmm that's a bit too obvious, so I'll add other men in brackets."


Funny how you insist that wrath is not for the world, but yet insist, that wrath falls upon me. It appears you have much hatred for anyone or anything that resembles a pentecoastalist or orthodox teachings. This hatred is eating you up and I urge you to repent and ask the lord to heal you of any scars that you might have received in your church upbringing. Dishing out your hatred/anger on the body of Christ who have a different opinion to your own is not helping anyone. I personally hate the fact that God will destroy a large part of humanity and plead with him to do it some other way, so I know where you are coming from, but ones feelings do not change the authority of the scriptures. Feelings are also fickle, I would not be suprised if I see you in heaven rejoicing when mystery babylon is avenged.


THIRD --- you continue to present the GOD of PEACE as a deciever... instructing His followers to do one thing (bless, love and pray for enemies), and that in following this instruction emulates Him -- Matt 5:48 -- and then (according to YOU), He TURNS AROUND and sets "enemies" of His, ablaze with harsh judgment...  :thumbdown:

There is no other explanation for the vengeance scriptures. Nothing else fits, except judgment of earthly fire upon ungodly men. Is God the same yesterday today and forever?
Did God punish the enemies of Israel, Sodom etc in the old testament for nothing? Was he an evil God in the old testament but now is a good God?

Why do you suppose God sends judgment upon the entire earth? Is it not to purify the world of ungodly men who use their authority to do great evil. Are you angry at God because in his mercy wants his people to live in a world of peace? Would you rather the wicked of this world continue in power for eternity?

2 Peter 3
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.


Does God avenge his saints? You bet he does

Luke 18
7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? 8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Revelation 18:20   
Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.


The following scripture will give you something to ponder on

WillieH : The scriptures say forgive our enemies thinktank.

Romans 12:19   
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves,

Thinktank: Yes they do, but they also speak of wrath

Romans 12:19
but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Romans 12:19   
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

When it comes to God and judgement, I'll put it in the simple way that a child of his like myself understands it.

"If you hurt me, my daddy will beat you up for sure.  He's big, and strong, and powerful!  And has a harder punch than you do!"

willieH: Hi Tank...   :Sparkletooth:

Have to break this answer down in 2 parts to you:

PART ONE

Quote from: thinktank on October 27, 2010, 02:21:09 AM
Good hearing and vision is neccessary to know the whole plan of God. What you fail to comprehend is that God disciplines his creation. At the time of the end men will be destroying the earth according to scripture as they do today.

I do not fail to comprehend this Tank!  What do you think AIDS, WAR, CANCER, DEATH, etc... are Tank, ...a warm up?  :laugh:

We REAP what we SOW...  and THAT is how GOD "disciplines" His creation... for He noted that THROUGH SUFFERINGS was CHRIST made PERFECT [complete] -- Heb 2:10


willieH --- "REVENGE" is a spirit, within your spirit, that does NOT promote PEACE, ...so, IN that spirit, ...you attempt to bring the GOD of PEACE -- Rom 15:33 -- Phil 4:9 -- Heb 13:20 -- 1 Cor 14:33 -- down to your "REVENGEFUL" level... preaching THAT hypocrisy in doing so, ...while belittling Him and HIS PEACE, in the process...  :sigh:

Quote from: thinktank on October 27, 2010, 02:21:09 AM
Revenge is a spirit huh? So you do believe that demons/unclean spirits exist afterall.

No I do not... REVENGE is part of the spirit of ADVERSITY in MEN... as is KILLING and DISOBEDIENCE...  and exists within YOU... for you preach of it.

Quote from: thinktank on October 27, 2010, 02:21:09 AMI suppose you don't know what revenge is, being that you believe you are arived at perfection.

:Yeahright:  I do NOT believe this, nor have I ever claimed such a thing Tank... This is just you lashing out against me... (which is quite juvenile)... nothing more.  :sigh:

Quote from: thinktank on October 27, 2010, 02:21:09 AMHow blind are those who believe they have arrived, not perceiving that they have fallen into pride of life, seeing themselves as better than others and having to belittle others to make themsleves look better.

FIRST --- I do not think of myself as "better" than any other... and I have not stated such... this is YOU subliminally name calling me with STRAWMAN deflections that purpose to evade.

SECOND --- I have not belittled you, just noted Scriptural truths you purposely ignore.  If you feel belittled by this, that is your own problem.

THIRD --- I am not prideful concerning anything... on the contrary... I admit that I know little, and always remain a STUDENT... always open to learning new things from our Father that are IN His WORD, ...not products of the imaginations of men such as yourself and your petty comments toward me.  :sigh:

Quote from: thinktank on October 27, 2010, 02:21:09 AMThis is a sad strategy of many in todays world, why do we have to belittle others to make ourselves look good, entire newspapers are dedicated towards pointing out the faults in celebrities etc, so that people can feel good about themselves.

Please note where I have belittled you Tank. :dunno:  It is not my intention to belittle you.  :mnah:

If I have misworded something, I would be happy to reword it for you.  :cloud9:  You whine at me without showing examples of the problem!

Quote from: thinktank on October 27, 2010, 02:21:09 AM
Next time try uplifting people instead of tearing them down and you might be blessed, for by tearing others down you are tearing yourself down into destruction.

Maybe you should listen to your own words Tank... Do you really see this post to me as "UPLIFTING" to me?  :Chinscratch:

That which needs destruction in me shall take place at the hand of God... I do not tear myself down by noting to you SCRIPTURE... :rolleye:

Quote from: thinktank on October 27, 2010, 02:21:09 AM
1 Thessalonians 4:6   
That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.

Where have YOU been "defrauded" by me, Tank?  You herein, weakly attempt to use the Scriptures as a WEAPON instead of a tool of LEARNING.

willieH:
FIRST --- Where in the Book of Revelation is noted "REVENGE", Tank?  :dontknow:

"REVENGE" is something that lives in YOU, not in God.  He has no REASON to seek REVENGE, for He DECLARED ALL THINGS before they occured -- Isaiah 46:10 -- and those events have taken place as HE NOTED they would.

Quote from: thinktank on October 27, 2010, 02:21:09 AM
Well now you are provoking me to show you scriptures of wrath. You are already sweating after me posting a small post on judgement, can you handle even one scripture?

FIRST --- I have not provoked you at all...  You preach REVENGE do you not?  I am just noting what is plain for all to see.  As far as "wrath" is concerned, as I have already noted, the WRATH of YHVH is NOW and is REVEALED NOW -- Rom 1:18

SECOND --- As far as "sweating"... more OVERESTIMATION of yourself, ...you are hardly capable of exacting this from me... There are several Spiritual minds that will send me to the "thinktank", but YOU are not one of them...  If have read the WORD of YHVH from cover to cover, and scrutinized it for quite a while... and am quite well aware that VENGENCE was the pathway walked by the religious of the OT... In which the WORD resided and was available, and yet was NOT Spiriitually comprehended as CHRIST aptly and often displayed to the religious ones of His day which OVERESTIMATED themselves as do you in this one... some things never change.

Quote from: thinktank on October 27, 2010, 02:21:09 AM
Psalm 99:8   
Thou answeredst them, O Lord our God: thou wast a God that forgavest them, though thou tookest vengeance of their inventions

Isaiah 35:4 
Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.

These verses do nothing to establish your "REVENGE" and VIOLENCE doctrine which is the OLD TESTAMENT, ... and which ignorantly seeks to displace PEACE and GRACE... which is the ...NEW TESTAMENT...

These are OLD TESTAMENT doings and sayings... which display GOD dealing with men as MEN deal with men (eye for eye)... We are now in the dispensation (historical time found amidst the manifestations of evil) of GRACE... which INSTRUCTS us to DO as GOD does -- Matt 5:48 -- FORGIVE, BLESS and LOVE, enemies... which your deafened EARS fail to HEAR.  :pitiful:

Quote from: thinktank on October 27, 2010, 02:21:09 AM
God will save his people from vengeance but only if they follow him. The hypocrites and those who are christian in name only will be left with the wicked to experience judgement.

Please... men cannot manipulate GOD, Tank...

FIRST --- If they FOLLOW Him, they are ORDAINED to do so -- Eph 2:10 -- not because THEY of themselves, are empowering themselves... but (as you fail to recognize), they are EMPOWERED by laying themselves DOWN and CHRIST lives in them -- Gal 2:20

SECOND --- Judgment BEGINS at the HOUSE OF GOD... no one shall escape JUDGMENT, so strap in Tank... click it or ticket!  :laughing7: -- 1 Pet 4:17

Quote from: thinktank on October 27, 2010, 02:21:09 AM
Romans 12:19
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Again Tank... you REAP what you SOW...  GOD brings His WRATH (reaping) against the SOWING of ungodliness and unrighteousness -- Rom 1:18 -- How long will you ignore what is right in front of you, T-Tank?

Quote from: thinktank on October 27, 2010, 02:21:09 AM
2 Thessalonians 1:8   
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Nahum 1:2   
God is jealous, and the Lord revengeth; the Lord revengeth, and is furious; the Lord will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.

We are IN the FIRES of Judgment NOW... as the Lord said from His OWN LIPS:  John 12:31 -- and YOU refuse to believe.  :sigh:

Quote from: thinktank on October 27, 2010, 02:21:09 AM
To show you that man has vengeance

Proverbs 6:34   
For jealousy is the rage of a man: therefore he will not spare in the day of vengeance.

Of course (especially the religious) MAN has a vengeant and UNFORGIVING Heart... He, a SINNER himself, seeks OTHER sinners (like HIMSELF), to recieve that which HE Himself has been SPARED -- as if He is a "prize" for God and another is NOT...

This is the performed creation of HELL and ET as the THEOLOGIANS of today (such as yourself), ...which are the modern version of the PHARISEES of yesterday, ...drag the adultress, drunk, drug user, etc. --- before GOD, and SEEK condemnation OF them, where CHRIST did NOT! -- John 8:3-11 -- seeking the VENGENCE of GOD upon them instead of as did CHRIST, ...pleading before GOD, for MERCY for the ones who are LOST -- Luke 23:24 -- hypocritically failing to FOLLOW Him in literally every instance...  :sigh:

Quote from: thinktank on October 27, 2010, 02:21:09 AM
These scriptures are only a few that speak of vengeance. You asked for them so you got them.

I asked you to note REVENGE in the Revelation... "which is an evening up of the score" for that is what you PREACH... an "EYE for an EYE"... which CHRIST noted is no longer to be done -- Matt 5:38-39 -- and you refer to examples of that which has been SUPERCEDED by GRACE...

For where SIN abounded, (which is EVERYWHERE in EVERYONE), GRACE did MUCH MORE abound (in the very same place), but shall you believe this Tank?  :dontknow: 

Of course you do not... for you in your VENGENT/REVENGE oriented message which is DEVOID of PEACE, ...seek other SINNERS, to pay for that [sin] which YOU (think to) have been spared... How self oriented is this thinking, bro?  :mshock:

end of [glow=red,4 :boredom:,300]PART ONE[/glow]... continued in next post...

willieH: Hi Tank...  :cloud9:

PART TWO

Quote from: thinktank on October 27, 2010, 02:21:09 AM
Luke 21
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

This is already fulfilled Tank... "these be the days of vengeance"... The days BEFORE Grace went to the CROSS and made PEACE of that which was VENGENT -- Col 1:20 --  :dontknow: --- How can you call yourself a messenger of CHRIST and continue to bear the message of VENGEANCE?  What PEACE is in VENGEANCE, Tank?

Please explain to us, the PEACE that is found in VENGENCE... :rolleye: (or continue to IGNORE, which is your M.O.)

Quote from: thinktank on October 27, 2010, 02:21:09 AM
All things fullfilled, sounds like its talking about the end, not something that happened in 70AD

All things WRITTEN, were (are and will be) fulfilled by Him... but because you are VENGENT of heart (seeking to revive "eye for eye"), you continue in that which CHRIST said must cease in those who "follow Him".

He was fulfilling, is fulfilling (in men, see Gal 2:20), and will be fulfilling... until ALL is COMPLETE in ALL... The AUTHOR and FINISHER of our FAITH...

willieH:
FIRST --- It is YOU which IGNORE Scripture Tank... for the very words of CHRIST say that the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD is NOW -- John 12:31

Quote from: thinktank on October 27, 2010, 02:21:09 AM
There are many contradictory statements in the bible. Unless you compliment the scriptures with each other you will only have half the picture. It seems to be you are only interested in half the bible and throw out the other half to suit your fancy.

So say you --- falsely... big surprise...  :laughing7:

Your own words shall note your undoing.  It is you which throws out the words that do not suit you... IGNORING them.

willieH:

SECOND --- an unfocused vision remains upon the NATURAL, and so understanding shall continue to elude you.  You (and all other men) "destroy" the "earth" as you SIN in IT... therefore the JUDGMENT of YHVH and the accompanying wrath of it, comes against you (and all other men) -- Rom 1:18 -- The WRATH of YHVH ...IS... (not will be) revealed against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men [sin] who hold the truth (which IS the WORD of YHVH -- John 14:6), ...in unrighteousness...  

Which is why MANY that claim to represent Him, ...shall mourn amidst their false presentation of Him -- Matt 7:22-23

Quote from: thinktank on October 27, 2010, 02:21:09 AM
Your a funny guy. You often do this and trip yourself over with your own arguments.

you say

willie H "THERE IS NO Vengeance ThinkTANK"
""""""
"""""""

Willie"Thinktank there is wrath on SInners like you thinktank. 
willie"hmm that's a bit too obvious, so I'll add other men in brackets."

:omg:  :rolleye: "you say"?  Are you seriously implying I said these things?

These are hardly quotes... rather DISTORTED paraphrases created crookedly by YOU instead of QUOTING the actual words directly,  :thumbdown: ...purposed by you to sidestep what has been made known to you...

Quote from: thinktank on October 27, 2010, 02:21:09 AM
Funny how you insist that wrath is not for the world, but yet insist, that wrath falls upon me.

I made no such statements... I said that WRATH is found in REAPING and SOWING... and that you shall MOURN for what you have SOWN brother...

Go back and find quotes if you are able, that match what YOU just (falsely) SAID that ...I said...  :laughing7:

Quote from: thinktank on October 27, 2010, 02:21:09 AM
It appears you have much hatred for anyone or anything that resembles a pentecoastalist or orthodox teachings.

Keyword here is "appears"... from which a false speculation then arises from you...

I have no hatred for anyone or anything.  Nor have I named such for Pentacostals or Orthodox teaching.  I have shown the DISTORTIONS in them... that is all...

Quote from: thinktank on October 27, 2010, 02:21:09 AM
This hatred is eating you up and I urge you to repent and ask the lord to heal you of any scars that you might have received in your church upbringing.

You continue in UNFOUNDED SPECULATION...

Why would you assume that I had "church upbringing", Tank?  I was an ATHIEST at one time, then an AGNOSTIC... within my journey. 

I do not need to repent for anything!   I have already done so (very tearfully with my wife by my side) before YHVH 34 years ago... and He knows in detail, the heart that resides in me. 

Just because I believe in things which are CONTRARY to what YOU BELIEVE does not mean that I am in need of REPENTENCE...  Only by your foolish measurement of me by using YOUR OWN BELIEFS (which are quite surface), can such a deduction be made of me. :boredom:

I confess my sin to GOD... and do not claim to be completely FREE of it... I am in process, not having arrived, how about YOU?  Are you SIN LESS, Tank?  I will be very curious to your answer, that is if you have the courage to answer this question...  :dontknow:

Quote from: thinktank on October 27, 2010, 02:21:09 AM
Dishing out your hatred/anger on the body of Christ who have a different opinion to your own is not helping anyone.

I have not "dished out" any such thing.  But I do believe there are MANY which assume themselves as part of the Body of CHRIST, which shall find REJECTION from Him -- Matt 7:22-23 -- will you be numbered with them, Tank?

Quote from: thinktank on October 27, 2010, 02:21:09 AM
I personally hate the fact that God will destroy a large part of humanity and plead with him to do it some other way, so I know where you are coming from, but ones feelings do not change the authority of the scriptures. Feelings are also fickle, I would not be suprised if I see you in heaven rejoicing when mystery babylon is avenged.

Wow!  That is quite the BLASPHEMY, Tank!  You believe that GOD is going to destroy a "large part of humanity", and HATE this?  This means you HATE something about your "god"... I feel sorry for you. 

As for me, there is absolutely NOTHING that I "hate" about my GOD... I love ALL things He has done, is doing and will do... and KNOW and TRUST that even through difficulties, the agenda He has outlined for humanity is ALWAYS in its best interests...  :thumbsup:

willieH:
THIRD --- you continue to present the GOD of PEACE as a deciever... instructing His followers to do one thing (bless, love and pray for enemies), and that in following this instruction emulates Him -- Matt 5:48 -- and then (according to YOU), He TURNS AROUND and sets "enemies" of His, ablaze with harsh judgment...  :thumbdown:

Quote from: thinktank on October 27, 2010, 02:21:09 AM
There is no other explanation for the vengeance scriptures. Nothing else fits, except judgment of earthly fire upon ungodly men. Is God the same yesterday today and forever?

FIRST --- There is if you would enter into BELIEVING in GRACE, as well as what the SCRIPTURES say of it!  Try reading Romans 5, Tank...

SECOND --- what Scripture do you refer to that notes VENGEANCE by "earthly fire"?  This is a prime example of your natural vision of Spiritual texts...

Quote from: thinktank on October 27, 2010, 02:21:09 AM
Did God punish the enemies of Israel, Sodom etc in the old testament for nothing? Was he an evil God in the old testament but now is a good God?

FIRST --- Again... the NT brought forth from the lips of the Savior, many TEACHINGS which laid to rest the NATURAL and CARNAL thinking of the RELIGIOUS of His day...  You remain stuck in the same mold as they, bro... :pitiful:

SECOND --- The priniple of SOWING and REAPING is in place... and GOD does bring forth CORRUPTION in those who SOW to the FLESH... as well as BLESSING to those who SOW to the SPIRIT...

Quote from: thinktank on October 27, 2010, 02:21:09 AM
Why do you suppose God sends judgment upon the entire earth? Is it not to purify the world of ungodly men who use their authority to do great evil. Are you angry at God because in his mercy wants his people to live in a world of peace? Would you rather the wicked of this world continue in power for eternity?

I am every bit a proponent for the removal of SIN from this world that you think you are, Tank.  And in no way do I have any anger toward GOD... You are the one that HATES things that (you think) He shall do... not me.

I continuously support PEACE... and have requested that you show us what part of PEACE has VENGEANCE or REVENGE within it, which you have failed to address, and it is my guess you shall continue to fail to address it... for your message is of FEAR and DESTRUCTION and VENGEANCE, none of which are found in PEACE.

Quote from: thinktank on October 27, 2010, 02:21:09 AM
2 Peter 3
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Peter noted that He was in "the LAST DAYS" 2K years ago -- 1 Pet 1:20 -- and Paul as well -- Heb 1:2

If their testimony (inspired by the Holy Spirit) is TRUE (and it IS),  ...what days are these, Tank?  :laughing7: -- Well... these are the LAST DAYS as well...  :laughing7:

Quote from: thinktank on October 27, 2010, 02:21:09 AM
Does God avenge his saints? You bet he does

Luke 18
7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? 8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Ah... a "teacher" (I use the term loosely) who answers his own questions...  :laughing7:

The Son of man came, is coming, will come... and in the SOWING to the flesh, shall the those who bring things contrary to the ELECT of God, recieve accordingly... as the REAP, what they have SOWN.

Quote from: thinktank on October 27, 2010, 02:21:09 AMRevelation 18:20   
Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

Hmmm... does this mean it has already been "avenged", Tank?

Quote from: thinktank on October 27, 2010, 02:21:09 AM
The following scripture will give you something to ponder on

willieH: The scriptures say forgive our enemies thinktank.

Romans 12:19   
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves,

Thinktank: Yes they do, but they also speak of wrath

Romans 12:19
but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Romans 12:19   
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

No offense bro, but this is a bit clumsily stated, ... in the end... I have already given explanation of it...

Preach what you are DECLARED to preach, Tank... which is VENGENCE, DESTRUCTION, MURDER of HUMANITY, all permeated in FEAR... an emotion which is ABSENT in PEACE, and which LOVE casts OUT...

You are welcome to your VENGENT message, Tank... mark my words, ...it will consume you eventually...

As for me, I'll stick with PEACE and LOVE... TWO things that GOD's WORD, says HE ...IS... Rom 15:33 -- 1 John 4:8