suffering trumps Gods omnipotence/omnibenevolence?

[NinjaWizards777]

Ive been "debating" with this atheist lightly(something I really never do anymore), and he has been trying to make the case that a God who allows suffering whatsoever could not and can not be all powerful or all loving.

Ive explained to him that I think that God allows it as part of a process, and that while he could do things any way he wants to (if he is in fact omnipotent)he chose to allow suffering and things of lesser quality of himself, so that in the end all might be appreciative of the process and the unconditional love that will be unmatched. Without the ability to experience and choose something other than perfection(God), is really the only way you could appreciate perfection for being what it is...so Im not sure him being all loving or all powerful really has anything to do with the method he chose to do it (as long as the end result is that all are brought about to perfection and unconditional love, which I believe and have said).

Still, he insisted that an omnipotent, omnibenevolent God could not possibly exist if He allows suffering and evil.  which makes sense given his perception (that there is no God or life after death, this life is it). Therefore from his angle that there is no better life to come, it wouldnt make sense why a God would allow suffering, especially more for some than others. IT would make God extremely partial...but thats not the angle Im defending.

any thoughts?

[Paul Hazelwood]

Well, I have an unpopular view on this.  The atheist is correct,  if God is limitless  (as we may conceive of it), and could give us an appreciation of good without subjecting us to evil then it is reasonable to question the character of the God being portrayed.

[NinjaWizards777]

so you think God has limits?

[Tim B]

so you think God has limits?

I'm guessing that Hazelwood's logic is that God could ONLY teach us through the method in which mankind is currently in: one of pain and suffering and of learning and discipline, or comparing and contrasting.

That's my guess... xD

And logically, it seems exceedingly plausible. I think God is all powerful only so far as He can do something that is logically possible. And logically it seems that this world could be the ONLY way humans could learn in the fashion in which God wanted us to learn. That is, if this is Hazelwood's thoughts. lol

[Paul Hazelwood]

so you think God has limits?

Yes I do, because if he is unlimited, then there is no reason that evil "must" exist in any context.

1C 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.


What we "perceive" as a limit is irrelevant, but it is those things we perceive as such that assure us that Gods character is sound.

[Paul Hazelwood]

so you think God has limits?

I'm guessing that Hazelwood's logic is that God could ONLY teach us through the method in which mankind is currently in: one of pain and suffering and of learning and discipline, or comparing and contrasting.

That's my guess... xD

And logically, it seems exceedingly plausible. I think God is all powerful only so far as He can do something that is logically possible. And logically it seems that this world could be the ONLY way humans could learn in the fashion in which God wanted us to learn. That is, if this is Hazelwood's thoughts. lol

That's a good way of putting it.   To say God cannot be illogical is a limitation, but that limit is only a problem to our perception.   

The reality of a God limited to Logic, even if we do not comprehend the scope of what "is" logical, is not actually a limit where we could leverage ourselves as greater than God.

To our minds, the thought of God having a limitation is weakness or lack of wisdom yet scripture says, nope.

[NinjaWizards777]

so you think God has limits?

I'm guessing that Hazelwood's logic is that God could ONLY teach us through the method in which mankind is currently in: one of pain and suffering and of learning and discipline, or comparing and contrasting.

That's my guess... xD

And logically, it seems exceedingly plausible. I think God is all powerful only so far as He can do something that is logically possible. And logically it seems that this world could be the ONLY way humans could learn in the fashion in which God wanted us to learn. That is, if this is Hazelwood's thoughts. lol

That's a good way of putting it.   To say God cannot be illogical is a limitation, but that limit is only a problem to our perception.   

The reality of a God limited to Logic, even if we do not comprehend the scope of what "is" logical, is not actually a limit where we could leverage ourselves as greater than God.

To our minds, the thought of God having a limitation is weakness or lack of wisdom yet scripture says, nope.

This is confusing, but something tells me you are right lol. Its hard shifting through my fundamentalist taught beliefs to realize what may  or may not actually be the case, which is what ive been doing for over a year now.

Though, and I thought of this while at work today, if God has such limitations one COULD say that a "limitation" of God is that he cant save anyone after death, or certain people too obsessed with their "free" will, etc. If God has limitations, I fear to wonder if the salvation of all is something his is limited from (though I dont really believe that to be the case, but the doubt is there)

Using that logic, you could easily re-set up the Armenian view that "God loves all, but cant save all"

[Doc]

I remember talking through this subject with an atheist at one point, and I ended up doing a word study on "omnipotent". Turns out that the word(s) that we translate as "omnipotent" (and similar words) actually have a meaning much closer to having the most/ highest/ all authority. So even there, not strictly omnipotence in the sense we think of the meaning of the word. I also believe God has some limitations, but that they are so far out of the realm of making Him limited from the human perspective, that it's somewhat pointless to refer to God as limited outside of the metaphysical sense.

One example we could give is that God could not do anything that would cause Him to  cease to be God, or to cease to exist.

[Tim B]

so you think God has limits?

I'm guessing that Hazelwood's logic is that God could ONLY teach us through the method in which mankind is currently in: one of pain and suffering and of learning and discipline, or comparing and contrasting.

That's my guess... xD

And logically, it seems exceedingly plausible. I think God is all powerful only so far as He can do something that is logically possible. And logically it seems that this world could be the ONLY way humans could learn in the fashion in which God wanted us to learn. That is, if this is Hazelwood's thoughts. lol

That's a good way of putting it.   To say God cannot be illogical is a limitation, but that limit is only a problem to our perception.   

The reality of a God limited to Logic, even if we do not comprehend the scope of what "is" logical, is not actually a limit where we could leverage ourselves as greater than God.

To our minds, the thought of God having a limitation is weakness or lack of wisdom yet scripture says, nope.

This is confusing, but something tells me you are right lol. Its hard shifting through my fundamentalist taught beliefs to realize what may  or may not actually be the case, which is what ive been doing for over a year now.

Though, and I thought of this while at work today, if God has such limitations one COULD say that a "limitation" of God is that he cant save anyone after death, or certain people too obsessed with their "free" will, etc. If God has limitations, I fear to wonder if the salvation of all is something his is limited from (though I dont really believe that to be the case, but the doubt is there)

Using that logic, you could easily re-set up the Armenian view that "God loves all, but cant save all"

Well, the thing is, changing somebody's mind, or having the power to compell a person to follow you is not something that is logically impossible. When I say God can't do something that is logically impossible I mean something along the lines of: God cannot create a triangle with four corners; God cannot create a line that is both longer and shorter than another line; God cannot make a person both pregnant and not pregnant at the same time. Those three things, just mentioned, are logically impossible. But saving all people is not logically impossible, so God is definitely able to do such a thing, if he so desires (and he does so desire)!  :bigGrin:

[NinjaWizards777]

All good points...however, I do have one little problem with this "God is only limited to logical things" theory, and that is the mircales and other super natural things in the bible. Heres a few examples off the top of my head

"logically" planets cant be formed out of nothing

"logically" you cannot turn dust into a human being

"logically" bushes dont spontanousely burst into flame and start talking

"logically" people dont walk on water

"logically" water doesnt turn into wine

"logically" everything decomposes or erodes at some point, nothing is everlasting

I know its not exactly the same like of thought as "can God create a 4 sided triange?" or "can God heat a burrito so hot, that he himself cannot eat it?", but is it fair to say that God can at least bend these so called logic to perform the supernatural? Or am I totally missing something here

[Beloved Servant]

The Lord can turn you into a toad if He so desired.
Even the thought that God has to obey anything but His Word is abhorrent.
He is everything, created everything, and through Him everything has its being.
Open the eyes of our heart Lord.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vnqb7Vn4AEE&feature=related

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Love that song, too.......timely....... :thumbsup:

[NinjaWizards777]

that really didnt answer my question

[Beloved Servant]

OK; To your original question.
If you do not have the Words of the Lord in your mouth you should not speak at all.
He does not need us to defend Him.
When He chooses the time and person His Word goes out in might and Glory.
We can not help God. Raise your staff when told so, not anytime before or after.

[NinjaWizards777]

Those type of answers to peoples serious questions and curiosities are part of the reason many people are turned off by Christianity. The attitude is "dont question God!!!" when really all it really is, is questioning our ideas of him

I somehow doubt God is offended by us challenging our perceptions of Him. Had I not did that originally I still would be a very sad person that thinks God tortures most people forever

[Beloved Servant]

True. You're not challenging God at all, just you're own perceptions. The horses ride on. There are 4 of them. And each brings revelation.

[NinjaWizards777]

I never know what it is you are talking about, BS...lol

[Beloved Servant]

Do you like to read?

[sparrow]

Those type of answers to peoples serious questions and curiosities are part of the reason many people are turned off by Christianity. The attitude is "dont question God!!!" when really all it really is, is questioning our ideas of him

I somehow doubt God is offended by us challenging our perceptions of Him. Had I not did that originally I still would be a very sad person that thinks God tortures most people forever

Amen to that.

[Beloved Servant]

True. You're not challenging God at all, just you're own perceptions. The horses ride on. There are 4 of them. And each brings revelation.

[Beloved Servant]

P.S.
YES EVE, THAT TREE LOOKS VERY GOOD TO EAT OF, JUST IGNORE THE WARNING LABEL.

[Tim B]

All good points...however, I do have one little problem with this "God is only limited to logical things" theory, and that is the mircales and other super natural things in the bible. Heres a few examples off the top of my head

I'll try and help you out on these.  :bigGrin:

"logically" planets cant be formed out of nothing

That's why the Big Bang Theory utterly fails if its suggested that nothing caused the Big Bang. However, planets wouldn't have formed out of nothing. They formed from God. The only sense in which planets were formed from nothing is only in the sense that they were not formed via prior or present materials when God created.

"logically" you cannot turn dust into a human being

I'm not sure that man actually came from what is exactly called "dust". Dust might just stand for the Earth, or materials chemically made from the Earth. Either way though, it could be that God would fashion a man into man's physical form via dust and then changed it into a biological living human being. It's interesting to note that the latter option is actually, essentially, what is says God did.

"7And Jehovah God formeth the man -- dust from the ground, and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature." Nothing illogically impossible there, anymore than turning water into wine.

"logically" bushes dont spontanousely burst into flame and start talking

Again, that's following the laws of nature they don't. But it's not logically impossible for God to do such a thing. He could easily maintain the bush's physical substance and also talk as if from or actually from the bush.

"logically" people dont walk on water

Well, the thing is, it's not logically impossible to walk on water if the laws of physics are messed with. Hence, there's nothing logically impossible about it. God just needs to "change the rules" if you will.

"logically" water doesnt turn into wine

Again, it's not logically impossible, and in fact, might actually be possible via advanced technology (if made could develop such technology). But nonetheless, it's not logically impossible and so is quite possible.

"logically" everything decomposes or erodes at some point, nothing is everlasting

Physically speaking, yes, nothing last forever (or so it seems from science). But that doesn't mean that nothing can last forever. If nothing can last forever, then logically speaking, nothing could exist. Something MUST BE eternally existing.

I know its not exactly the same like of thought as "can God create a 4 sided triange?" or "can God heat a burrito so hot, that he himself cannot eat it?", but is it fair to say that God can at least bend these so called logic to perform the supernatural? Or am I totally missing something here

As stated above, none of the things you mentioned really break the laws of logic. They might break the laws of physics, but God can do that without breaking logic. Here's something that could not be done, that is within physical nature, but is ALSO a logically impossible thing: for a person to be a married bachelor; for an atom to exist in two places at the same time and in the same relationship. Either the "two" atoms are somehow connected, and so in reality "one" substance, or there are actually two atoms. The atoms could theoretically even be identical, but that does not mean it's possible for them to be one and the same, anymore than two identical twins are one and the same.

Hope this all helps, and makes sense. Peace brother!

[Beloved Servant]

Does not the Word say that the Lord uses the foolish to confound the wise?
Where is man's logic in that?

[WhiteWings]

All good points...however, I do have one little problem with this "God is only limited to logical things" theory, and that is the mircales and other super natural things in the bible. Heres a few examples off the top of my head

I'll try and help you out on these.  :bigGrin:

"logically" planets cant be formed out of nothing

That's why the Big Bang Theory utterly fails if its suggested that nothing caused the Big Bang. However, planets wouldn't have formed out of nothing. They formed from God. The only sense in which planets were formed from nothing is only in the sense that they were not formed via prior or present materials when God created.

AFAIK the cause of the Big Bang is still a mystery to science. Perfect symmetry doesn't spontaniously break up.

"logically" you cannot turn dust into a human being

I'm not sure that man actually came from what is exactly called "dust". Dust might just stand for the Earth, or materials chemically made from the Earth..

Adam means red earth.

"logically" people dont walk on water

Well, the thing is, it's not logically impossible to walk on water if the laws of physics are messed with. Hence, there's nothing logically impossible about it. God just needs to "change the rules" if you will.

Actually, I can walk on water. Many people I know can.

[NinjaWizards777]

all true tim, but if God can "change the rules" a little here and there, why didnt he "change" them in a way, that we could freely love and choose him, without enduring sin and the terrible atrocities that wreak upon humanity. To my mind, there is nothing else that is "logical" to bring about those things, without experiencing things of lesser "good" or evil to choose other than God...but, it still seems odd to me.

the only answer to my mind is that there was no other way to transform us how he wanted without the use of suffering...which would mean there is a limit like paul originally said. I guess im still uneasy with the thought that God actually has "limits" though