sometimes the message is lost in translation

[rosered]

   Sometimes just trying to  communicate   some    meaning to anyone   , is a challenge of itself 

I was looking at  the verses of Enoch   and wondered  why so very little is  about him or his writings  , but just simple  example of him being translated

  and just what that can mean  to any of us    in  Gen 5

23So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. 24Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.

Hebrews 11:5
By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: "He could not be found, because God had taken him away." For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.

Jude 1:14
Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones

  the word  taken  means translated  in the bible meaning is used by the King James Version in Hebrews 11:5 for the original Greek word of the New Testament, pronounced meta-tith-ay-mee, which literally means removed, or taken away. The Revised Standard Version (which is based on the American Standard Version) uses taken, which provides a clearer picture of what was actually written in the original words of the Scriptures. Enoch was taken away so that he "was not found" and "wouldn't see death."


translation
[trans-ley-shuh n, tranz-]  Spell  Syllables
Synonyms Examples Word Origin
noun
1.
the rendering of something into another language or into one's own from another language.
2.
a version of such a rendering:
a new translation of Plato.
3.
change or conversion to another form, appearance, etc.; transformation:
a swift translation of thought into action.
4.
the act or process of translating.
5.
the state of being translated.
6.
Mechanics. motion in which all particles of a body move with the same velocity along parallel paths.
7.
Telegraphy. the retransmitting or forwarding of a message, as by relay.

and  we know Jesus said  HE IS THE RESURRECTION and the Life    and if you believe    you   shall never die   John  20

My question is do you think Enoch was given this  same  thing    way back before Jesus openly made this sure Word in   the same way ?


24Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."

25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life;

he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

[Lazarus Short]

Surely, Enoch was translated into glorified life, in the twinkling of an eye spoken of by Paul, without experiencing the pain, discomfort, and terror of dying.

Edit:  Surely?  Maybe not - see Micah's posts below...

[micah7:9]

What do I do with Heb 11:13  These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
I'm just asking :dontknow:

[joeteekay]

About Enoch - this may be a bit disjointed but here is what I see:

exeGeses companion Bible Heb 11:5 By trust Hanoch was transplaced to not see death; and was not found; because Elohim transplaced him: for ere his transplacing he had this witness - that he well-pleased Elohim

Lets look at two parts of this scripture.  The first part has to do with being taken (translated or transplaced) and the second having to do with not seeing death.

These all died in the faith (including Enoch) not having received the promises.  So what does it mean that Enoch did not see or experience death. God took him, but where did He take him to? 

Verse 24 says God took him, similar to what the latter part of Hebrews 11:5. It says God took him, but where?

He walked with God, past tense . It also says all the days were three hundred an sixty years. Enoch did die.

Notice in  in Genesis that references to other individuals also say "So all the days of Jared were.... (verse 20) So all the days of Methuselah were.... (verse 27)". Reading through Genesis 5 you will find many other such statements showing that these all died.

God did physically remove Enoch from where he was to another location where he died and was buried (by God).  This relocation happened to Elijah.  And it is also similar to what happened to Moses, so it is not unprecedented.

Deuteronomy 34: 5 So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord. 6 And He buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Peor; but no one knows his grave to this day.

So Enoch did die as all people do. 

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Enoch, died in the faith.  Heb. 11:5 starts with the words "By faith". Similar to many of the beginning verses of Heb 11 referring to all other people God was working with.  It was by faith that Enoch was translated.

All, even Enoch, has not received the promise of immortality yet as we on this forum well know.
Enoch was also not found at the place he was at for most of his life because God physically took him to another location where he died and was buried by God, just like Moses was. His life was pleasing to God.

[eaglesway]

Enoch is the clear exception to the "all these", since it clearly states he did not see death. To imagine or suppose that God took him somewhere to kill him or let him die and bury him doesnt make sense with the context.

All those who died, died in faith having not received the promises, excepting Enoch. Remember, this was written by the holy Spirit thru a man. IMO, there are no mental gyrations here. Just a clearly noted exception to the general statement made in verse 13.

5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: "He could not be found, because God had taken him away." For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

[rosered]

  Wow Thanks


Laz
  Micah

, Joe

  and EW /John

  For these replies  , l  sure appreciate   your considerations     and searching  them out



I know everyone experiences    mortality in the physical bodies  .  in Adam all die ,dust you are and to dust you shall return .

I was just wondering if anyone   else  thought that Enoch   was taken up and joined with the Lord of hosts
and not resting in a grave   awaiting judgment   , because  some never see death  in the spiritual  sense of the meaning as its recorded .

  There is so much controversial  opinions  over  the Bible   passages
   Thanks  again   

[joeteekay]

Yup, interesting,

KJV - Joh_8:51  Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

CLV -51 Verily, Verily, I am saying to you, If ever anyone should be keeping My word, he should under no circumstances be beholding death for the eon."

[sheila]

I agree with EW on this.....well said......

[rosered]

Yup, interesting,

KJV - Joh_8:51  Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

CLV -51 Verily, Verily, I am saying to you, If ever anyone should be keeping My word, he should under no circumstances be beholding death for the eon."

  Its is Joe and  EW    that was  crystal  clear  :thumbsup:
   right on shelia !!

       Made me think of Jesus tasting death for every man  and some with this promise   shall never see death     in   the above verses

  and some would not taste death till they seen Jesus  coming in the clouds
 

Enoch is one who did not experience death but was translated    changed  like Laz said

it  sure  is interesting  Joe

  Strong's G3346 - metatithēmi
μετατίθημι
Transliteration
metatithēmi
Pronunciation
me-tä-tē'-thā-mē (Key)

Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
From μετά (G3326) and τίθημι (G5087)
TDNT Reference
8:161,1176
Vines
View Entry
Outline of Biblical Usage
to transpose (two things, one of which is put in place of the other)

to transfer

to change

to transfer one's self or suffer one's self to be transferred

to go or pass over

to fall away or desert from one person or thing to another

[micah7:9]

 I'm sure Enoch was much more righteous than those around him. I think the answer is simply Enoch's enemies wanted to kill him, so God moved him somewhere else to save him at that time.
In 1 Kings chapter 18, God tells Elijah to go see King Ahab (who had been searching for Elijah for some time). Obadiah finds Elijah, who tells him to go tell the King that he is coming to visit him. Check out Obadiah's response to Elijah:


Verse 7 As Obadiah was walking along, Elijah met him. Obadiah recognized him, bowed down to the ground, and said, "Is it really you, my lord Elijah?"
8 "Yes," he replied. "Go tell your master, 'Elijah is here.'"
9 "What have I done wrong," asked Obadiah, "that you are handing your servant over to Ahab to be put to death?
10 As surely as the LORD your God lives, there is not a nation or kingdom where my master has not sent someone to look for you. And whenever a nation or kingdom claimed you were not there, he made them swear they could not find you.
11 But now you tell me to go to my master and say, 'Elijah is here.'
12 I don't know where the Spirit of the LORD may carry you when I leave you.If I go and tell Ahab and he doesn't find you, he will kill me. Yet I your servant have worshiped the LORD since my youth.
13 Haven't you heard, my lord, what I did while Jezebel was killing the prophets of the LORD? I hid a hundred of the LORD's prophets in two caves, fifty in each, and supplied them with food and water.
14 And now you tell me to go to my master and say, 'Elijah is here.' He will kill me!"


Later in 2 Kings chapter 2, we read that Elijah was "taken up" by God; but apparently this wasn't the first time seeing that Obadiah was scared that God's Spirit might take Elijah away somewhere if he told King Ahab that he'd found him! Obadiah would've been accused of lying to the King, a crime worthy of death! So, Elijah assures Obadiah that he will be visiting the King so he has nothing to worry about (verse 15). This, to me, is clear evidence to support that God took Elijah and Enoch somewhere else on Earth, as opposed to Heaven as Christendom insists.
The Greek word "metatithemi" means "to transfer--literally to transport..." Strong's Lexicon.

Transfer" means "To convey or cause to pass from one...to another." And "transport" means "To carry from one PLACE to another [place]..." (The American Heritage College Dictionary).
Enock died:  "By faith Able...By faith Enoch...By faith Noah...By faith Abrfaham...Through faith also Sara...THESE A-L-L [including Enoch] DIED in faith, NOT having received the promises..."

[rosered]

Hi Micah , I googled   and found this 


http://www.ucg.org/bible-faq/did-god-take-enoch-and-elijah-heaven

  That is exactly what I mean   There is so much controversial  opinions  over  the Bible   passages   
  and believe its according to our faith  , I am saying  its possible  what you state Enoch  was hidden from enemies   and its also possible with God that   Enoch  was changed   .

    Just as Jesus told the blind men Matt 9    Then he touched their eyes, and he said, "Just as you have believed, let it be done to you."

[micah7:9]

Hi Micah , I googled   and found this 


http://www.ucg.org/bible-faq/did-god-take-enoch-and-elijah-heaven

  That is exactly what I mean   There is so much controversial  opinions  over  the Bible   passages   
  and believe its according to our faith  , I am saying  its possible  what you state Enoch  was hidden from enemies   and its also possible with God that   Enoch  was changed   .

    Just as Jesus told the blind men Matt 9    Then he touched their eyes, and he said, "Just as you have believed, let it be done to you."

:Peace2:

[Lazarus Short]

Micah, you have rightly divided the Word here.  I withdraw what I said earlier.

[micah7:9]

Micah, you have rightly divided the Word here.  I withdraw what I said earlier.

:dsunny: Let God be True....... :trampoline:

[rosered]

  Alright    Micah   &   Laz

I can see the literal   he was spared from enemies   and taken to a safe place     

  But I just   do not understand why the BIBLE cannot be more clear with  verses and the translations so much is lost

Do you   understand what I mean  ?
  true is that God confouned the languages in  Gen 11     the tower of Babel     to this day       !! :mrflo:

[gregoryfl]

When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, and the eunuch didn't see him any more, for he went on his way rejoicing.
(Act 8:39)

Here is an instance in the 1st century writings of the same occurence.

Why cannot the Scripture be written more clearly? If it were so, then this message board would not exist.  :laughing7: (Everyone agreeing, nothing to debate about)  :eek:

[micah7:9]

  Alright    Micah   &   Laz

I can see the literal   he was spared from enemies   and taken to a safe place     

  But I just   do not understand why the BIBLE cannot be more clear with  verses and the translations so much is lost

Do you   understand what I mean  ?
  true is that God confouned the languages in  Gen 11     the tower of Babel     to this day       !! :mrflo:

His Word does not contradict.   :2c: and Amen brother gregoryfl

[gregoryfl]

Here is another example, taken from the Hebrew perspective:

Is there a large difference between the Ancient Near Eastern perspective of the Hebrews and our Modern Western perspective? From my research and studies, I would have to say there is not only a difference, but large chasm between the two. The only way to cross this chasm is to construct a bridge that will span these two different, and oftentimes opposing, perspectives. That bridge is built by studying the Ancient Hebrew culture, lifestyle and philosophy.

How would you interpret the following passage from the book of Psalms?

The LORD sitteth upon the flood; yea, the LORD sitteth King for ever. (KJV Psalm 29:10)

This passage is a parallelism, meaning that the first part of the passage is a parallel, and has the same meaning as the second part. But before one can see and understand the parallelism, one must first understand each Hebrew word correctly and then secondly, interpret those words from an Hebraic perspective.

Here is the passage in the Hebrew.

יהוה למבול ישב וישב יהוה מלך לעולם
(YHWH l'mabul yashav vai'yeshev YHWH melekh l'olam )

The Hebrew word translated as "sitteth" is the verb ישב (yashav), literally meaning to "dwell." The word למבול (l'mabul) includes the prefix ל (l) meaning "to" or "toward" and the word מבול (mabul) meaning "flood." The word מלך (melekh) means "king," but not a king in the modern sense where the king "sits on a throne and rules from afar," but one who "walks among the people and provides for their needs." The word לעולם (l'olam) includes the prefix ל (l) meaning "to" or "toward" and the word עולם (olam), which is usually translated in the abstract as "eternal," "eternity" or "for ever," but Hebraicly has the concrete meaning of "horizon."

In our modern culture, a flood always brings to mind death and destruction and if we use this interpretation of a flood in Psalm 29:10, we will never understand what the Psalmist was trying to tell us. In the Ancient Hebrew mind a flood always brings to mind life and prosperity, not death and destruction [My note: Not always, but most of the time, to be more accurate]. In a desert region such as in the land of Israel, water is very scarce and the floods, coming down from the mountains, bring the much needed water and it also deposits nutrient rich soil on the land that makes the growing of crops possible.

If we revisit Psalm 29:10 and interpret it from a Hebraic perspective we have the following understanding.

YHWH dwells as the flood that covers all the land spreading water and nutrients and YHWH is the king that spreads life and prosperity through all the land as far as one can see.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/57_interpretation.html

[sheila]

 :thumbsup: and the knowledge of God shall cover the earth.....seeing people as 'waters' and sand of the sea"

  also many going to and fro in the earth and knowledge[of God] increasing.

[micah7:9]

That was very enlightening, I will say this and humbly, that in my mind when I read The Lord sitteth upon a flood, I just knew it was speaking about a flood. Thank you Lord :dsunny:

[rosered]

   Wow Cool Thanks Ronon   for sharing that !!  :thumbsup:     very descriptive  :winkgrin:

    Thanks for the two cents Micah , I know  the Bible  does not contradict  :gimmefive:  but you read the atheist  test as well as I did lol I found it

  and they do have some discrepancies  like the two men in one     gospel and only one man in the other gospel Same story  .  and the test was rigged no matter  what answer you gave  ,  YOU WERE WRONG   :laughhand: 
  Thanks Shelia , I do see the spiritual   metaphors     and LOVE them   also   as the literal and historical       
our minds are   driven to many places its seems  :icon_flower:

  Thanks for all the input  everyone  , it has  cleared up much for me  personally 
   and can see more ways than one to LOOK at things

[Lazarus Short]

Why cannot the Scripture be written more clearly? If it were so, then this message board would not exist.  :laughing7: (Everyone agreeing, nothing to debate about)  :eek:

Ask yourself what we would have, had God laid out everything clearly and succinctly - even the ignorant and evil would know the program.  Our wise God hid His message within reams of text so that most would miss what He was saying to the Elect.  It also impels us to go back, go back to the Scriptures until the Word does it work in us.

[micah7:9]

   Wow Cool Thanks Ronon   for sharing that !!  :thumbsup:     very descriptive  :winkgrin:

    Thanks for the two cents Micah , I know  the Bible  does not contradict  :gimmefive:  but you read the atheist  test as well as I did lol I found it

  and they do have some discrepancies  like the two men in one     gospel and only one man in the other gospel Same story  .  and the test was rigged no matter  what answer you gave  ,  YOU WERE WRONG   :laughhand: 
  Thanks Shelia , I do see the spiritual   metaphors     and LOVE them   also   as the literal and historical       
our minds are   driven to many places its seems  :icon_flower:

  Thanks for all the input  everyone  , it has  cleared up much for me  personally 
   and can see more ways than one to LOOK at things

Cool  :dsunny: yes that test was one only an atheist would spare ink for.

[micah7:9]

Why cannot the Scripture be written more clearly? If it were so, then this message board would not exist.  :laughing7: (Everyone agreeing, nothing to debate about)  :eek:

Ask yourself what we would have, had God laid out everything clearly and succinctly - even the ignorant and evil would know the program.  Our wise God hid His message within reams of text so that most would miss what He was saying to the Elect.  It also impels us to go back, go back to the Scriptures until the Word does it work in us.

Right on my brotha! Right on :thumbsup:

[joeteekay]

Really great thread. Many insights.  :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: