Someone help me, please...

[Miriam]

Hi Michelle, good to see you again!  :bigGrin: I've read "The Shack." Glad you're enjoying it.  :bigGrin:

[Michelle]

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. (Hebrews 4:12 )

In my contacts with folks, offline and on the Internet, I frequently encounter people who have a special fondness for the King James Version (KJV) of the English Bible. Some profess to take pleasure from the almost poetic use of 17th century English, as I do. Others like the fact that so many aids to study and interpretation are based on the KJV, as I do. Some believe the KJV, also known as the Authorized Version (AV), to be an inspired version, as I do not.

There is a body of professing Christians who claim that the AV is the only English version – and I have met a few who claim it is the only version in any language – that truly preserves God's written revelation to mankind as set down in the original autographs.. Within this latter group are to be found some who assess the eternal state of others by their choice of Bible version; if they're not using the KJV exclusively, then they're not truly saved.

When confronted concerning their excessive zeal for this translation, it is not uncommon for those who hold to KJV-Onlyism to charge that their antagonists are being divisive. Often, they will claim that this "divisiveness" is caused by the "other" versions of the English Bible.

Adherents of KJY-Onlyism are very messianic about their choice of Bible versions and often are willing to devote a lot of time and effort to spreading the KJV gospel. As often as not, they will concentrate on "proving" that other versions are tainted due to satanic influence over those who labored to bring them into existence. On those occasions when they attempt to show why the KJV is the better choice, their arguments often tend to rely more on logic or sentiment than theology. Not infrequently, they will attack, either directly or by innuendo, the faith or doctrine of those who prefer some other translation to the KJV.

I prefer to stay clear of "version fights," which I believe are as often motivated by pride as by reasoned study of the issues. To me, these are similar to strivings over denominational affiliation. In my considered opinion, any time someone's relationship to the Lord is judged on the basis of externals such as church affiliation, Bible choice, etc., personal prejudice is the standard against which that individual is being measured, not sound doctrine.

Recently, I stood to one side and watched as some apparently KJV-Only folks preached their KJV gospel to a group of professing Christians, most of whom had only recently heard the call to Christ. As usual, their arguments were centered on proving all other Bible translations to be false, while expecting the KJV to be accepted simply because it was the right thing to do. Those in the KJVO camp, while admitting for the most part that they had used other translations early in their Christian walk, were intolerant of the fact that most of those to whom they were preaching their cause were young in the faith and that some of these were still struggling with vestiges of old beliefs and habits. I saw little tenderness or compassion; little of that Christian love we so like to boast of. What I saw was harsh language, bitterness, invective, ad hominems, and other "arguments" generally favored by those who lack convincing evidence to support their stand. This is poor polemics, for it is does little to convince the antagonist that his position is flawed and, in fact, tends to harden his opposition. It is far easier to attack one's opponent on a personal level than it is to show what is "wrong" with his position or to advance irrefutable evidence in support of one's own stand.

When it became apparent that some of those targeted by the KJV-Only assault team were suffering injury as a consequence of the unrelenting barrage, I stepped in and made a half-hearted effort to either end the exchange or shift the focus. I enlisted the support of a gentle believer who strongly favors the KJV, but does not consider choice of translation to be a watershed issue in assessing the faith of another. He made several attempts, calling upon the Scriptures for support, to end the increasingly harsh exchanges -- to no avail. Once the KJV-Only juggernaut starts rolling, it is quite difficult to stop.

I decided to examine the KJV-Only position in detail; something I had never done before. Who knows? Maybe these folks have the right understanding and the KJV is the only Bible translation that perfectly preserves God's revelation as breathed to the inspired writers of the original autographs. For my limited study, I chose to go with some of the more-often-quoted exponents of KJV-Onlyism. What I found were mostly value-laden arguments that depended more on appeals to emotionalism than to facts. The majority of the items I read appeared targeted to readers looking for nothing more than confirmation of strongly held beliefs.

One theme I encountered several times had to do with the alleged divisiveness of those who preferred some other translation to the Authorized Version. After reading that argument a few times, I sat quietly for a few minutes and tried to remember the last time I recalled anyone who used a translation other than the KJV trying to shove his favorite down someone else's throat. After a few minutes, I gave up the effort. I could think of not a single incident.

In my observation, it seems that it is those who have some special attachment to the KJV who tend to foster divisions within the Body of Christ. I cannot recall ever observing someone who prefers the NASB pointing an accusing finger at another person who happens to prefer the RSV and fairly screaming, "Heretic! The Bible you are using is not inspired." I don't recall ever observing someone with an NIV in his hand ever saying to someone holding a KJV that he would never find Christ using THAT Bible.

I cannot recall ever observing someone holding one of those "other" English translations bringing a brother or sister to tears over his or her choice of translations. I have seen KJV-Only types do that often.

On the other hand, I have observed a great number of people who appear to almost worship their KJV as much as a devout Roman Catholic might worship the Virgin Mary -- not with the same degree of worship as rendered to God, but worship nevertheless. This excessive reverence for, not the Bible, mind you, but for a particular translation of the Bible, might constitute bibliolatry. Not an accusation, just something to think on."

http://www.tentmaker.org/Biblematters/King-James-version.htm

http://www.tentmaker.org/Biblematters/King-James-version2.htm

*Sigh* Why such immaturity? *Sarcastic* "My Bible is better than yours, therefore, it is the only inspired and innerant Word of God"... "My denomination is better than yours", "My church is better than yours". I wonder what unbelievers think when they see those Christians behave so immaturely. It's no more mature than a pissing contest. To think I was one of them. A KJV-Onlyite Fundy. I would try to shove "God loves you, but..." or "Turn or burn" down people's throat. When I look back, I realize how pathetic I was, trying to prove to anyone that the KJV was the only true Word of God. Needless to say that I failed miserably and the infos my Fundy friend sent me to try and convince me weren't convincing at all. If Christians of all denomination stopped fighting in such immature ways over Bibles, church, denominations, creeds et al, then maybe they would set an example. This is getting so ridiculous. Even children are more mature than that. "Version fights" is such a waste of time. Instead of telling people which version they should prefer, they should get the Word of God out there to the sick and the poor. And you have no idea how sick and tired I am of the "heretic" insult. If I hear it one more time, I'm really gonna break something. That might sound unchristian to you, but there are limits to what a person can take. After the hundreth time of "heretic!" you just want to tell them exactly what you think of them. And if there is one type of people that I just can't stand, it's the anti-Trinitarian people. If I come across one of those persons, I can't help but get into a fight. Anything anti-Trinitarian is TRUE heresy. One thing about the KJV though. It is the only Bible that very explicitly tells of the Trinity (1 John 5:7-8, compare many versions). It is also one of the rare Bibles that says Christ came in the flesh rather than "He appeared in a body". And finally, it is one of the rare Bibles that didn't replace "worshipped" with a mere "knelt".

The only Bible I wouldn't touch with a ten foot-pole, is the NIV Bible, which is an abomination and a perversion. The NIV Bible calls both Jesus and Satan the Morning Star, teaching that Jesus and Satan are one and the same. The publishing house that owns the right to the NIV Bible also owns the right to the satanic Bible and "The joy of gay sex". The man who runs that publishing house is none other than Rupert Murdoch owner of the Fox Kid TV channel. He runs porn channels. Finally, did you know that the only verse that say we are to study to show ourselves aproved has been removed from the NIV?

Even though "Version fights" are ridiculous and immature, it's important to point out the heresies in some Bible verses:

Who is Jesus? Who is satan?

Jesus is the Bright and Morning Star

satan is son of the morning.

The KJV and the NKJV are consistant in this.

KJV
Isaiah 14:12
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

KJV
Revelation 22:16
16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

NKJV
Isaiah 14 NKJV
12 " How you are fallen from heaven,  O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!

NKJV
Revelation 22:16
"I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star

But lets see how the NIV calls satan and Jesus.

NIV
Isaiah 14:12
How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

NIV
Revelation 22:16
16"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

The NIV calls both Jesus and satan the Morning Star. I wonder what kind of occultists use this scripture to indoctrinate their initiates into thinking Jesus and satan are one and the same being. It's a sickening heresy...

Here we see clearly that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one. I John 5:7 reads as follows:

KJV- For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: AND THESE THREE ARE ONE. (emphasis mine)

NIV- For there are three that testify:

NASV- And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth.

NWT- For there are three witness bearers,

HERESY!!!!

NIV- 8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." 11 which said: "Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea."

NASV- "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." 11 saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."

NWT- 8 "I am the Al'pha and the Omega," says Jehovah God, "the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty." 11 saying: "What you see write in a scroll and send it to the seven congregations, in Ephesus and in Smyrna and in Pergamum and in Thyatira and in Sardis and in Philadelphia and in Laodicea."

KJV- 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. (emphasis mine)

How about this?

1 Timothy 3:16

NIV- Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body,...

NASV- And by common confession great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh,

NWT- Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: 'He was made manifest in flesh,...'

KJV- And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, (Emphasis mine).

Here it is easy to see why the Jehovah's Witnesses translated this verse as they did since they completely reject that Jesus was "God manifest in the flesh". It is quite shameful that the NIV and the NASV have followed along with this corrupt work in changing "God" to "He". Of course "He" appeared in a body, Paul appeared in a body, you appeared in a body, and I appeared in a body. The NIV and the NASV have completely changed the essence of this verse by translating it as "He". Despite the overwhelming manuscript evidence the NIV and the NASV alter their text to read "He".

Now we want to look at Phil. 2:6. This is a very familiar verse that should be well-known to most. Pay special attention to the wording of each Bible. (emphasis mine)

NIV- Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

NASV- who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

NWT- who, although he was existing in God's form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.

KJV- Who, being in the form of GOD, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Did Jesus consider Himself equal with God or not? Both cannot be correct! Here the NIV, NASV, and NWT all agree, however, they are in direct opposition to what the KJV says. The NIV, NASV, and NWT clearly contradict the teaching of the Trinity and negates much of the teaching of past church history. It is easy to see how and why the NWT does so but what about the NIV and NASV? Again we see that the NIV and the NASV side with the Jehovah's Witnesses Bible in detracting from the Deity of Christ.

Those are heresy too... Anything that is a direct attack on the deity of Christ and/or an attack on the Holy Trinity is a heresy...

[Michelle]

"When I publish an article of a controversial nature, and most of what I write falls into that category, I anticipate that a few people will wish to communicate to me their reactions to what they had read. As anyone who has ever witnessed, or been involved in, a discussion concerning Bible versions must know, those who defend the KJV-Only position are a committed and outspoken group. In that I had shown the text upon which the KJV New Testament was based to be somewhat less than a perfect preservation of the inspired autographs, I had anticipated a strong reaction from those who cling to the KJV-Only position. I was surprised that, with only one exception, all those who contacted me concerning the article were strongly supportive of its content."

If the author of that article wasn't anonymous, I could contact him and ask him for a copy of his article. My Fundy friend really need to wake up. Him, and plenty of others...

"The lone exception was from a man I am convinced is a God-fearing, blood-bought follower of the risen Christ. A dear friend, I knew him to be convinced of the superiority of the KJV over all other versions of the Bible, though he was gracious in his attitude toward those who prefer those other versions. My friend is eloquent in his Scripture-based defense of the KJV. He is also a quite competent theologian and honest student of the Scriptures. I anticipated that he had examined what I had written and was now presenting his defense of the King James Version. I figured that my scholarship was about to be put to a severe test.

The opening words of his email stunned me:

"Now that you have taken my security blanket away, what am I supposed to base my faith on?"

With these humble words, this warrior for the faith, this outspoken evangelist and patient counselor to so many who were struggling in their walk, seemed to be confessing a broken heart. The Bible, the version that he had come to consider the very foundation upon which his faith was built, was not perfectly faithful to the ancient texts, as he had long supposed. His faith was momentarily shaken.

I responded to his plaint:

"Oh, what are you saying here? I know you, and I know your faith is not based on a book, not even a book called the Bible. Your faith was a gift from God and not something you obtained through intellectual exercise.

Sure, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, as Paul wrote in Romans 10:17. But scroll up a few verses and read verse 14:

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? (Romans 10:14, KJV)

Who told you about God? Who first mentioned Christ to you? Was it your Catholic mother? Did you first hear Christ preached in a Catholic Church? Sure, Catholic theology is seriously flawed, but there is truth buried in it and, just maybe, God used some pagan Catholic to first teach you of the Savior. You know the words, Catholics are saying them all the time. To the Catholic those words don't mean what they mean to a believer, but you weren't a believer when you first heard them and, just maybe, a seed was planted. So it took years for God to cause that seed to sprout, it doesn't matter. God works at His pace, not ours.

You've said hundreds of times that we are saved by faith alone and that saving faith is a free and unmerited gift from God. Are you suggesting, perhaps, that the gift of faith isn't really available except through the KJV?

Something to think about."

http://www.tentmaker.org/Biblematters/King-James-version2.htm

I had a similar crisis two weeks ago and if it weren't for Gary and his articles about the LIVING Word, I think I would've completely fallen apart...

[WhiteWings]

Some believe the KJV, also known as the Authorized Version (AV),

It was specially translated for King James who had homosexual affairs.
"Thou shall commit adultary"
Thousands of errors where corrected in the first inspired versions. Must have been human error instead of mistakes of the HS inspiring thing wrong. Man make lots of errors so it seems because the KJV used to have apocryptical books.
If HS truely inspired the KJV one should ask him/herself what value we should put in inspiration if the result has thousands of errors (admitted by the KJV team) that ranged from a harmless typo to "shall not co"mmit adultary, to whole books added.

to be an inspired version, as I do not.

Lots of artists are inspired by booze and snorting....
I think it isn't any more/less inspired than any other translation.

There is a body of professing Christians who claim that the AV is the only English version – and I have met a few who claim it is the only version in any language – that truly preserves God's written revelation to mankind as set down in the original autographs.

Even better than the Hebrew and Greek (original) versions it seems.
The problem with KJV people is that they have zero proof for KJV being the best translation.
Just claiming something is no proof.

Introduction (from the Christian Bible)
This Bible is the most accurate and literal translation of the "New Testament" into plain English in over 450 years.
The New Contract Writings ("New Testament") were written in the Greek language. However it wasn't the Classical Greek of Aristotle; rather, they were written in Koine ("Coin-A" or everyday) Greek, which was the everyday language used by almost everyone during the First Century A.D. in conversation and commerce throughout the Roman Empire. Our Savior talked plainly to people, the way we would talk to one another. Therefore, plain everyday English has been used in this Bible to properly translate the everyday Greek that the writers used, instead of using the religious and theological terms found in the other Bible translations, which distort the original meaning.
The translators of the King James Version (KJV) were unaware of the differences between Koine Greek and Classical Greek. The relevant manuscripts had not yet been discovered.As late as 1886 Joseph Henry Thayer could still list 767 distinctively "New Testament" words with no known parallels in any known Greek literature. But now, because of recent discoveries and research over the past 100 years, well over 99% of the words of the New Contract Writings have been found in other Greek literature. Moreover, in 1611 the KJV translators followed the syntax of Classical Greek; but we now know that the Greek of the New Contract Writings corresponds syntactically to Koine Greek.This makes
a tremendous difference in how many words and phrases are translated. Until 1895 the language of the New Contract Writings was known as "Tired Greek," "Bad Greek," "Jewish Greek," "Biblical Greek," "New Testament Greek," or "Holy Ghost language," because it was different from Classical Greek. But in 1895 (284 years after the KJV was first published) the Greek and Bible Scholar Adolf Deissmann discovered
that the New Contract Writings were written in Koine (everyday) Greek.
While studying some recently discovered collections of nonliterary documents, he suddenly recognized a great similarity between what he was reading there and what he was accustomed to reading in the Greek New Contract Writings. These nonliterary documents that he was studying were many different types of legal documents, business letters, personal letters, love letters, diaries, horoscopes, magic formulas, etc. However, even though almost a century has passed since this universally accepted great discovery, not until now has a translation into true everyday English been accomplished.

. Within this latter group are to be found some who assess the eternal state of others by their choice of Bible version; if they're not using the KJV exclusively, then they're not truly saved.

I wonder why there are Calvinist churches outside English speaking countries. You just defined only English speaking people can be the Calvinist elect...

Adherents of KJY-Onlyism are very messianic about their choice of Bible versions and often are willing to devote a lot of time and effort to spreading the KJV gospel.

There isn't anything wrong with having a favorite translation. The problem with the KJV is that it has been proven most flawed of (allmost) all translations. Translation is a science based on transcripts, KJV translators had only a few of. And on liguistic skills the KJV team lacked too (compared to the currenly standards)

Once the KJV-Only juggernaut starts rolling, it is quite difficult to stop.

Things only roll downhill....

The only Bible I wouldn't touch with a ten foot-pole, is the NIV Bible, which is an abomination and a perversion. The NIV Bible calls both Jesus and Satan the Morning Star, teaching that Jesus and Satan are one and the same. The publishing house that owns the right to the NIV Bible also owns the right to the satanic Bible and "The joy of gay sex". The man who runs that publishing house is none other than Rupert Murdoch owner of the Fox Kid TV channel. He runs porn channels.

KJV is printed by the same publisher. Harper Collins.
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~rseaborn/john_wiser_emails.html

Finally, did you know that the only verse that say we are to study to show ourselves aproved has been removed from the NIV?

The problem is that not all manuscripts are the same. In some verses are missing or seem to be editted.

Those are heresy too... Anything that is a direct attack on the deity of Christ and/or an attack on the Holy Trinity is a heresy...

You start sounding like a KJV promoter.
Trinity has nothing to do with the deity of Christ. Church started with various believes concerning Jesus. From being just a very ordinary man that recieved a gift from above, to a seperate lesser God, to God Himself.
So:
a] 1 God consisting of just one person
b] 2 seperate Gods (of diffrent rank)
c] Jesus was just as mortal as you are but recieved a gift from God because He liked Jesus a lot.
d] A binity. Just like the Trinity withy the HS.
e] Constantine forced in the Trinity concept (likely because he believed in trinitarian pagan gods)
f] Later there was even a push to add Mary to the Trinity. Quadinity.

You complain "study theyself approved" is not in every translation; but at the same time you demand translations that say what you believe. True study is only wanting to study perfect translations and based on that be prepared to make tiny to huge changes in your believes. That includes switching between trinity and non-trinity believes. Opinions are good. But they can hinder your walk. I'm not allowed to discuss Trinity but I one to give you a little thing to study. HS spirit is not a person. It's a thing. Greek calls it "It"

[WhiteWings]

"Now that you have taken my security blanket away, what am I supposed to base my faith on?"

That sound very human. As you study you learn you know even less than before. For some study means they have it all figured out before they die. For most it simply means they replace one doubt with another doubt and die in doubt. That's the price to pay for removing the veil security blanket.

[jabcat]

Gary and I have been working with Michelle directly.  She will continue trying to be helped privately.  Based on his discussions with her and his suggestion, she won't be posting for now.  James.

[Quaesitor]

You see, I still sin but unlike before, I'm not accused before God in my own eyes anymore and so these sins have no more power on my ability to live in relationship with God.
If I go about telling people how sinners they are, it's the best way to keep them away from God because their sins will accuse them day and night before God.

The BTK, one of the worse serial killers in the history of the country, was a Lutheran Deacon.  So how does this work according to you?  BTK goes out and tortures and kills and then goes to church and is forgiven?  So he can go out the next week and do the same thing?  And, we are not to point out his sin to him because that will cause him to stumble because we are not loving enough?  And, besides that, he's not accused before God so he can still stay in relationship with God because of Jesus?

The BTK stayed hidden from police for 40 years.  Imagine that!  How good he was at what he did.  He was finally caught because he wanted to be caught.
Somewhere in that dark psychopathic mind, there was still a conscience. 

It's our own conscience that torments us when we break God's commands, not other people.

You see, I've been clear from the beginning that LOVE is the totality of the law.
This serial killer is indeed hurting people by the sin which has overcome his heart, my gay neighbor isn't hurting nobody whith his gayness.
I will not condemn that man, but if possible I'll deliver him to the justice so he can stop hurting others and love will ask that I do everything I can to help him see the light of Christ's love and salvation.

What we should not do is tell him he IS his sin and that what he has done is too much for God to heal, that's a LIE.

And exactly, it's OUR OWN conscience that torments us, not God, he wants to free us from these torments and heal/save us. These torments are the wage of sin and it is exactly from that which God is saving us.

I do not believe that either, somewhere you misread my words.

Maybe we're having a communication issue, but when you say this "You guys can call sins and sinners all you want but the truth of the matter is that there is no condamnation for those in Jesus Christ and since we are all universal salvation believers, that means EVERYONE" - to me that sounds very much like what you're saying. 

"Also pray that we may be rescued from worthless and evil people, since not everyone holds to the faith."   2 Thessalonians 3:2

In this whole discussion, I don't believe judging or condemning has been the theme, although one or two have said that's what's happening, including you saying we're "condamning people".   If not careful, we can be judging and condemning in our attitudes and behavior, but stating what the scriptures say is not in itself "condamning" anyone.  On the other hand, I believe if we're not careful we can deceive people by suggesting to them that anything they (we) do is OK - i.e., "healthy homosexual marriages".  When the scriptures state something - anything, is sinful - it's not healthy.

There's a whole of the scriptures to be sought and reconciled. 

Jabcat, stating Scriptures can TOTALLY condemn people if used without the full revelation of God.
When I say healthy, I mean in a relative view not in an absolute view.
There is no way to say to a homosexual that his whole being is a sin without laying a burden of condamnation oh him.

My point is that I bring the good news of the reconciliation to people and let God work with the sanctification.

And I'm not sayiing homosexuality is blessed and OK, I'm saying that it doesn't matter at all in the whole salvation process, it does matter if all the person hear is you're a sinner and God will not approve you until you change because as much as we want the message to be judgementless, that's how it sounds.

And everyone is in Jesus Christ, they just don't know it yet and don't act like it yet but I apologize, it's true that my sentence sounds like inclusive stuff.

But overall, Molly and Jab, reading your answers, I realize that you don't really understand what I'm saying and I really apologize for my inability to express it better.
Sorry

[jabcat]

Well, despite our apparent communication problems, I think we've made a little progress/clarification in this discussion :laughing7:

Jesus, Savior of the world  :thumbsup:

[Quaesitor]

Well, despite our apparent communication problems, I think we've made a little progress/clarification in this discussion :laughing7:

Jesus, Savior of the world  :thumbsup:

Exactly, the only fondation worth building on! :thumbsup:

[CHB]

And everyone is in Jesus Christ, they just don't know it yet and don't act like it yet but I apologize, it's true that my sentence sounds like inclusive stuff.

I wonder about this? I know everyone is saved, they just don'r know it yet or act like it but is everyone in Christ now?  What does it mean to be in Christ? I sort of think that if a person is in Christ they will know it.

CHB

[Molly]

And everyone is in Jesus Christ, they just don't know it yet and don't act like it yet but I apologize, it's true that my sentence sounds like inclusive stuff.

I wonder about this? I know everyone is saved, they just don'r know it yet or act like it but is everyone in Christ now?  What does it mean to be in Christ? I sort of think that if a person is in Christ they will know it.

CHB

I think it's the other way around.  There is a piece of Christ in every man.

Like you said, they just don't know it, yet.



24Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

25Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

28Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

--Col 1

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen Gary.... :thumbsup:

[Beloved Servant]

:cloud9: Amen Gary.... :thumbsup:

Amen Cardinal and Molly and Gary.

God hid Himself in the last place anyone would look — within themselves!

[Nathan]

Once the abomination of desolation within us is revealed, standing "in" the holy place of our "selves", the veil of self is then removed and understanding is birthed in us as "we" decrease "us" in us and allow "him" to then increase in us, freedom from bondage, liberty from religion, resurrection from death immediately follows!!

[Beloved Servant]

Amen, Nathan.

Every truth brings us into a greater rest in Him.

When your heart totally turns to the Lord the veil is rent and taken off of your mind.

2 Cor 3:16; (KJV) Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen to you both..... :thumbsup:

[thinktank]

Gary and I have been working with Michelle directly.  She will continue trying to be helped privately.  Based on his discussions with her and his suggestion, she won't be posting for now.  James.

I wonder hows she's doing?

[jabcat]

I was told by someone a couple of months ago that she's doing better.  It was requested that she make contact and discuss the possibility of her returning to posting, but haven't heard from her.