Someone help me, please...

[Quaesitor]

Jesus said that in the Kingdom there is no gender and no mariage, these will come to an end and had a purpose.

Where does Jesus say that there will be no gender in the kingdom? I know he said there would be no marriage but I don't see anything about the gender.

There won't be any marriages as we know them today. One reason is, no one will die. Todays marriages are like laws and there will be no laws when we are immortal. I think we will still be male and female though.

CHB

Yeah sorry, that was speculative on my part.
I think I mixed that about when Paul said there is no male/female in Christ.

One thing is sure, there's no sex/reproduction, neither seducing or courting. So, in my understanding, no difference between genders.

[Molly]

Jesus said that in the Kingdom there is no gender and no mariage, these will come to an end and had a purpose.

Where does Jesus say that there will be no gender in the kingdom? I know he said there would be no marriage but I don't see anything about the gender.

There won't be any marriages as we know them today. One reason is, no one will die. Todays marriages are like laws and there will be no laws when we are immortal. I think we will still be male and female though.

CHB

Yeah sorry, that was speculative on my part.
I think I mixed that about when Paul said there is no male/female in Christ.

One thing is sure, there's no sex/reproduction, neither seducing or courting. So, in my understanding, no difference between genders.

But, there again it's possible to have a 'disqualified mind' even among these heavenly beings as we see they took daughters of men [Gen 6] and left their first estate [Jude 1] in rebellion against God.

It is these that we as sons of God will replace in the divine council.  They will die as men and we will achieve immortality.

[Molly]

 1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
   in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

2"How long will you judge unjustly
   and show partiality to the wicked?
                         Selah

3 Give justice to the weak and the fatherless;
    maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.

4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
    deliver them from the hand of the wicked."

5 They have neither knowledge nor understanding,
    they walk about in darkness;
   all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

6 I said, "You are gods,
   sons of the Most High, all of you;


7nevertheless, like men you shall die,
   and fall like any prince."

8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;
   for you shall inherit all the nations!

--Psalm 82

[Lefein]

Am I the only one who believes that relationships/genders continue in Heaven?  :dunno2:

[Quaesitor]

Am I the only one who believes that relationships/genders continue in Heaven?  :dunno2:

We'd have to go in heaven first... :happygrin:

But I'd wager a lot of money that you're not the only one.

1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
   in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

2"How long will you judge unjustly
   and show partiality to the wicked?
                         Selah

3 Give justice to the weak and the fatherless;
    maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.

4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
    deliver them from the hand of the wicked."

5 They have neither knowledge nor understanding,
    they walk about in darkness;
   all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

6 I said, "You are gods,
   sons of the Most High, all of you;


7nevertheless, like men you shall die,
   and fall like any prince."

8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;
   for you shall inherit all the nations!

--Psalm 82

Since it is not proven that these are about angels who fell and that it is not a consensus around here that angels even fell or sinned, I cannot accept that as valid.

[shawn]

What exactly is unnatural use? Just homosexuality and/or beastality?
Or also use contraceptives, sodomy, etc?

I've been thinking about your question.  I personally understand natural use (and and other related context) to primarily mean sexual/romantic relations with the opposite sex, within the the bounds of God's will - i.e., within marriage.  Bestiality is addressed specifically elsewhere.  Secondary issues such as contraception, etc., I believe to be more a matter of conscience, the Holy Spirit's conviction and leading for each person, as the Bible seems silent (explicitly) in some areas.   :2c:

Agreed.  If you believe contraception is sin...then to you it's sin.  I can't think of any direct scripture on the subject therefore it should be directly Holy Spirit revealed to the individual couple.

[shawn]

What is natural use?
If natural use is "go forth and multiply" then hetrosexual couples that choose to stay childless are also going against the natural use.

Every relation that's not man/woman can't create offspring. Maybe that's the unnatural use?
Man/man, woman/woman, human/beast are just examples.... :dontknow:

btw for me it's hard to imagine the people in Gen 5 get children at a late age. For example Seth was married 80 years before his son was born? I guess he had a lot of self control :icon_jokercolor:

I know you and I see sex very differently, but "natural" use is not just for procreation.  Sex between a husband and a wife does not have to be a pure natural experience.  It is two becoming one....spiritually symbolic. 

[Molly]

Since it is not proven that these are about angels who fell and that it is not a consensus around here that angels even fell or sinned, I cannot accept that as valid.

That's fine.  Not saying you should.  But it is the thing that makes the most sense to me.  Here is another reference to God putting these supernatural beings [the sons of God] over all the nations in ancient times [there is a reason that he does this.]  But, he keeps Jacob [the Israelites] for himself.  And, we see that eventually God will inherit all the nations from Psalm 82 because of the wickedness [of these beings] in heavenly places [eph 6].

And, of course, we know that we will be co-inheritors with Christ.



4 "The Rock, his work is perfect,
   for all his ways are justice.
A God of faithfulness and without iniquity,
   just and upright is he.
5They have dealt corruptly with him;
   they are no longer his children because they are blemished;
   they are a crooked and twisted generation.
6Do you thus repay the LORD,
   you foolish and senseless people?
Is not he your father, who created you,
   who made you and established you?
7 Remember the days of old;
   consider the years of many generations;
ask your father, and he will show you,
   your elders, and they will tell you.
8When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
   when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders of the peoples
   according to the number of the sons of God.
9But the LORD's portion is his people,
   Jacob his allotted heritage.

--Deut 32

[Molly]

Am I the only one who believes that relationships/genders continue in Heaven?  :dunno2:

Yes, I do, but they won't be sexual.

[jabcat]

Just wanted to say, which may be dangerous, that I support Paul.
I too believed that homosexuals were sinners in need of healing (like all of us...just them worst... :laughing7:) but, I now see what it was then, judgement, condamnation.
You guys can call sins and sinners all you want but the truth of the matter is that there is no condamnation for those in Jesus Christ and since we are all universal salvation believers, that means EVERYONE.
Should you rather live in condamnation of yourself or of others is to your own hurting but I pray that we can all be liberated of that condamnation and just learn to live in love.

What we should fight are not people and their orientations, we should fight destructive behaviors which are present in ALL relations and situations, especially where christians are judgemental to human beings.

There are, in this world, very healthy homosexual mariages and very unhealthy heterosexual marriages, our part is to love them all.

May peace reign in this forum.
:HeartThrob:

The same epistles that say "no condemnation" also have much to say about living an obedient, called out, separated life.  Love, yes.  Acceptance of the person, yes.  Treat each other kindly, yes.  A "do whatever you want even if it's clearly against scriptural teachings", no.

I realize there's a New Age influenced version of UR that ignores anything besides "love", but I'd really recommend that we get into the scriptures and out of reading and believing any current deceivers - UR or not - that are just tickling people's ears with an anything goes "gospel".  It's not the gospel of the scriptures. 

Romans 6:1  What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! [God forbid].  We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin.

[jabcat]

It really is difficult, in that we all have sin (I've been suffering the consequences of some of mine just today), so we all have no stones to throw.  I believe it's just that in the most loving way possible to each other, we still need to encourage each other with a good scriptural and spiritual basis, not only picking one or 2 scriptures that we like and are comfortable, while throwing out the rest.  It's difficult, and a life-long journey.   :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

Looks like most are moving on to other discussions.  This is being locked at least until Michelle gets back, if she wants to continue discussing help needed and her particular thoughts with which she started this thread.

[jabcat]

Michelle, dear one, plz. feel free to post again.  We'll work together on your posts and try this again.

[jabcat]

I just went in to disable your partial ban and saw the message to me at the bottom of your signature.  I haven't got any messages or emails from you.  I check them often and there's nothing there.  I didn't know your PMs weren't working.  According to the settings it appears you should have been able to use PMs.

Anyway, I've been already thinking about it, then I heard this song tonight.  You're right, I'm not perfect.  Just in these forum-type situations there are certain expectations, and sometimes they're hard to explain much less abide by.  I'm willing to work with you on your posting.  I'll PM you about it.

The song I heard;  And this could be any of us, and is and has been me....


She is running
A hundred miles an hour in the wrong direction
She is trying
But the canyon's ever widening
In the depths of her cold heart
So she sets out on another misadventure just to find
She's another two years older
And she's three more steps behind

Does anybody hear her? Can anybody see?
Or does anybody even know she's going down today
Under the shadow of our steeple
With all the lost and lonely people
Searching for the hope that's tucked away in you and me
Does anybody hear her? Can anybody see?

She is yearning
For shelter and affection
That she never found at home
She is searching
For a hero to ride in
To ride in and save the day
And in walks her prince charming
And he knows just what to say
Momentary lapse of reason
And she gives herself away

Does anybody hear her? Can anybody see?
Or does anybody even know she's going down today
Under the shadow of our steeple
With all the lost and lonely people
Searching for the hope that's tucked away in you and me
Does anybody hear her? Can anybody see?

If judgment looms under every steeple
If lofty glances from lofty people
Can't see past her scarlet letter
And we've never even met her

If judgment looms under every steeple
If lofty glances from lofty people
Can't see past her scarlet letter
And we've never even met her

Never even met her
(Never Even Met her)

(OHHHHH)Does anybody hear her? Does anybody see?
Or does anybody even know she's going down today
Under the shadow of our steeple
With all the lost and lonely people
Searching for the hope that's tucked away in you and me

Does anybody hear her? (Does anybody hear her?) Does anybody see? (Does anybody See?)
Does anybody even know she's going down today?
Under the shadow of our steeple (shadow of her steeple)
With all the lost and lonely people (Lost and Lonely people)
Searching for the hope that's tucked away in you and me
Does anybody hear her? Does anybody see?     

He is running a hundred miles an hour, in the wrong direction.....

c Casting Crowns


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhOJW4Uwy3c

[Quaesitor]

Just wanted to say, which may be dangerous, that I support Paul.
I too believed that homosexuals were sinners in need of healing (like all of us...just them worst... :laughing7:) but, I now see what it was then, judgement, condamnation.
You guys can call sins and sinners all you want but the truth of the matter is that there is no condamnation for those in Jesus Christ and since we are all universal salvation believers, that means EVERYONE.
Should you rather live in condamnation of yourself or of others is to your own hurting but I pray that we can all be liberated of that condamnation and just learn to live in love.

What we should fight are not people and their orientations, we should fight destructive behaviors which are present in ALL relations and situations, especially where christians are judgemental to human beings.

There are, in this world, very healthy homosexual mariages and very unhealthy heterosexual marriages, our part is to love them all.

May peace reign in this forum.
:HeartThrob:

The same epistles that say "no condemnation" also have much to say about living an obedient, called out, separated life.  Love, yes.  Acceptance of the person, yes.  Treat each other kindly, yes.  A "do whatever you want even if it's clearly against scriptural teachings", no.

I realize there's a New Age influenced version of UR that ignores anything besides "love", but I'd really recommend that we get into the scriptures and out of reading and believing any current deceivers - UR or not - that are just tickling people's ears with an anything goes "gospel".  It's not the gospel of the scriptures. 

Romans 6:1  What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! [God forbid].  We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin.

I understand your pastoral concerns but you've got to see that the whole law is complete in love God and love others, it is not about a new-age whatever, love IS really all that we need.
It's not about sinning and I think Paul was fighting agaisnt this same mindset of "yeah love is nice but sin is bad", of course sin is bad because it hurts people, it destroys lives.
But whose lives are hurted by those who judge the way they were born?
Gays, lesbians, trans whatever.

A lot of them have comitted suicide because of that rejection, if it was a simple choice, they would not commit suicide.

When I was young, my father was a young pastor and he was judged severly by the church on how he raised me.
We moved one year when I was 14-15 yo and I went to a new school.
I hated myself at that time, fat, ugly, non-athletic and I got rejected by the first group of friends I had made.
My new friends became the rejected, the druggeds, the weirds, the gothics, a bunch of rejected individuals.
One day I skipped school to go with them and took drugs.
My dad learned it.
You know what?
My mom told me he didn't even want to talk to me because he wanted to throw me through the window, he was angered because I was a wreck...
LOVE, I didn't need judgement, I needed my dad to come to me and ask me why, ask me how he could help me, support me through these extremely hard times.
But all he was seeing was the sin.

It's the same with homosexuals, they need love and acceptance, not of the sin, THERE IS NO CONDAMNATION for them, in my eyes, in my heart, there is no more condamnation...
My only question is: How can I reconcile you back to God?

The law is what keeps us slaves to sin, love is what delivers us.

Statistics tells us that tons of christian men look to porn, it is a sexual sin. You know what is the more destructive in looking at porn? (I know from first-hand experience)
GUILT
Condamnation in one's own eyes.
Understanding that LOVE doesn't accuse, frees from the guilt and leads one into being delivered from the sin completely.

Love you Jab, keep seeking!
:HeartThrob:

[Quaesitor]

It really is difficult, in that we all have sin (I've been suffering the consequences of some of mine just today), so we all have no stones to throw.  I believe it's just that in the most loving way possible to each other, we still need to encourage each other with a good scriptural and spiritual basis, not only picking one or 2 scriptures that we like and are comfortable, while throwing out the rest.  It's difficult, and a life-long journey.   :HeartThrob:

Like you say, it so important to have the whole biblical context in head when saying what is scriptural or not.
This whole discussion about homosexuals is, IN MY OPINION, exactly what is going on, tradition picking all the scriptures where homosexuality is mentionned and creating a theology about it.
They did the same thing with hell, most of us now have understood that it is really them who have taken Jesus' words about gehenna and darkness OUT OF CONTEXT even if they continue to accuse us of this same thing.
The whole scriptural revelation is so totally unlike it's parts because it's a progressive revelation and one has only to read Isaiah compared to leveticus to get a headache about what God really wants.

Like you said, it's a long and difficult ,BUT SO REWARDING, journey!
:bgdance:

[jabcat]

Just wanted to say, which may be dangerous, that I support Paul.
I too believed that homosexuals were sinners in need of healing (like all of us...just them worst... :laughing7:) but, I now see what it was then, judgement, condamnation.
You guys can call sins and sinners all you want but the truth of the matter is that there is no condamnation for those in Jesus Christ and since we are all universal salvation believers, that means EVERYONE.
Should you rather live in condamnation of yourself or of others is to your own hurting but I pray that we can all be liberated of that condamnation and just learn to live in love.

What we should fight are not people and their orientations, we should fight destructive behaviors which are present in ALL relations and situations, especially where christians are judgemental to human beings.

There are, in this world, very healthy homosexual mariages and very unhealthy heterosexual marriages, our part is to love them all.

May peace reign in this forum.
:HeartThrob:

The same epistles that say "no condemnation" also have much to say about living an obedient, called out, separated life.  Love, yes.  Acceptance of the person, yes.  Treat each other kindly, yes.  A "do whatever you want even if it's clearly against scriptural teachings", no.

I realize there's a New Age influenced version of UR that ignores anything besides "love", but I'd really recommend that we get into the scriptures and out of reading and believing any current deceivers - UR or not - that are just tickling people's ears with an anything goes "gospel".  It's not the gospel of the scriptures. 

Romans 6:1  What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! [God forbid].  We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin.

I understand your pastoral concerns but you've got to see that the whole law is complete in love God and love others, it is not about a new-age whatever, love IS really all that we need.
It's not about sinning and I think Paul was fighting agaisnt this same mindset of "yeah love is nice but sin is bad", of course sin is bad because it hurts people, it destroys lives.
But whose lives are hurted by those who judge the way they were born?
Gays, lesbians, trans whatever.

A lot of them have comitted suicide because of that rejection, if it was a simple choice, they would not commit suicide.

When I was young, my father was a young pastor and he was judged severly by the church on how he raised me.
We moved one year when I was 14-15 yo and I went to a new school.
I hated myself at that time, fat, ugly, non-athletic and I got rejected by the first group of friends I had made.
My new friends became the rejected, the druggeds, the weirds, the gothics, a bunch of rejected individuals.
One day I skipped school to go with them and took drugs.
My dad learned it.
You know what?
My mom told me he didn't even want to talk to me because he wanted to throw me through the window, he was angered because I was a wreck...
LOVE, I didn't need judgement, I needed my dad to come to me and ask me why, ask me how he could help me, support me through these extremely hard times.
But all he was seeing was the sin.

It's the same with homosexuals, they need love and acceptance, not of the sin, THERE IS NO CONDAMNATION for them, in my eyes, in my heart, there is no more condamnation...
My only question is: How can I reconcile you back to God?

The law is what keeps us slaves to sin, love is what delivers us.

Statistics tells us that tons of christian men look to porn, it is a sexual sin. You know what is the more destructive in looking at porn? (I know from first-hand experience)
GUILT
Condamnation in one's own eyes.
Understanding that LOVE doesn't accuse, frees from the guilt and leads one into being delivered from the sin completely.

Love you Jab, keep seeking!
:HeartThrob:

Nobody is saying they should be harshly criticized, judged, condemned.  That's not our job.  I believe it's our job to both love them, and share with them what the scriptures say about sin (when led and when it's opportune) - as well as love, forgiveness, and reconciliation. .  Denying it's there or an issue and not sharing the truth with them,  IMO is not doing a favor.  We may continue to disagree about this, because although I'm a UR believer and believe in love, gentleness, and acceptance of THE PERSON, I'm definitely not a "everybody's already saved, love's all we need" guy.  I still believe in "sirs what must I do to be saved"?  *Acts 16:30,31

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/rules_and_faq/tms_beliefs_regarding_universal_reconciliation_8094.msg95116.html#msg95116

[Molly]

I still believe in "sirs what must I do to be saved"?  *Acts 16:30,31

:thumbsup:
It's a standard of behavior for those who will rule and reign with Christ in the next age.  What are God's commandments if not a standard of behavior?  We can make our own standards, and men do that all the
day long, but what does that have to do with the price of eggs?

[jabcat]

Amen.

[Lefein]

At the very least, we'll know the truth from Truth himself once we meet him.  And thankfully, everyone is assured of that opportunity.

[Quaesitor]

Just wanted to say, which may be dangerous, that I support Paul.
I too believed that homosexuals were sinners in need of healing (like all of us...just them worst... :laughing7:) but, I now see what it was then, judgement, condamnation.
You guys can call sins and sinners all you want but the truth of the matter is that there is no condamnation for those in Jesus Christ and since we are all universal salvation believers, that means EVERYONE.
Should you rather live in condamnation of yourself or of others is to your own hurting but I pray that we can all be liberated of that condamnation and just learn to live in love.

What we should fight are not people and their orientations, we should fight destructive behaviors which are present in ALL relations and situations, especially where christians are judgemental to human beings.

There are, in this world, very healthy homosexual mariages and very unhealthy heterosexual marriages, our part is to love them all.

May peace reign in this forum.
:HeartThrob:

The same epistles that say "no condemnation" also have much to say about living an obedient, called out, separated life.  Love, yes.  Acceptance of the person, yes.  Treat each other kindly, yes.  A "do whatever you want even if it's clearly against scriptural teachings", no.

I realize there's a New Age influenced version of UR that ignores anything besides "love", but I'd really recommend that we get into the scriptures and out of reading and believing any current deceivers - UR or not - that are just tickling people's ears with an anything goes "gospel".  It's not the gospel of the scriptures. 

Romans 6:1  What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! [God forbid].  We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin.

I understand your pastoral concerns but you've got to see that the whole law is complete in love God and love others, it is not about a new-age whatever, love IS really all that we need.
It's not about sinning and I think Paul was fighting agaisnt this same mindset of "yeah love is nice but sin is bad", of course sin is bad because it hurts people, it destroys lives.
But whose lives are hurted by those who judge the way they were born?
Gays, lesbians, trans whatever.

A lot of them have comitted suicide because of that rejection, if it was a simple choice, they would not commit suicide.

When I was young, my father was a young pastor and he was judged severly by the church on how he raised me.
We moved one year when I was 14-15 yo and I went to a new school.
I hated myself at that time, fat, ugly, non-athletic and I got rejected by the first group of friends I had made.
My new friends became the rejected, the druggeds, the weirds, the gothics, a bunch of rejected individuals.
One day I skipped school to go with them and took drugs.
My dad learned it.
You know what?
My mom told me he didn't even want to talk to me because he wanted to throw me through the window, he was angered because I was a wreck...
LOVE, I didn't need judgement, I needed my dad to come to me and ask me why, ask me how he could help me, support me through these extremely hard times.
But all he was seeing was the sin.

It's the same with homosexuals, they need love and acceptance, not of the sin, THERE IS NO CONDAMNATION for them, in my eyes, in my heart, there is no more condamnation...
My only question is: How can I reconcile you back to God?

The law is what keeps us slaves to sin, love is what delivers us.

Statistics tells us that tons of christian men look to porn, it is a sexual sin. You know what is the more destructive in looking at porn? (I know from first-hand experience)
GUILT
Condamnation in one's own eyes.
Understanding that LOVE doesn't accuse, frees from the guilt and leads one into being delivered from the sin completely.

Love you Jab, keep seeking!
:HeartThrob:

Nobody is saying they should be harshly criticized, judged, condemned.  That's not our job.  I believe it's our job to both love them, and share with them what the scriptures say about sin (when led and when it's opportune) - as well as love, forgiveness, and reconciliation. .  Denying it's there or an issue and not sharing the truth with them,  IMO is not doing a favor.  We may continue to disagree about this, because although I'm a UR believer and believe in love, gentleness, and acceptance of THE PERSON, I'm definitely not a "everybody's already saved, love's all we need" guy.  I still believe in "sirs what must I do to be saved"?  *Acts 16:30,31

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/rules_and_faq/tms_beliefs_regarding_universal_reconciliation_8094.msg95116.html#msg95116

I do not believe that either, somewhere you misread my words...
The question is what are we saved FROM?
From death/sin/enemity agaisnt God.
How?
By faith that in Jesus Christ, God has defeated death/sin/enemity.
What's our job now?
Telling people that these things which hurt them and destroy their lives have been defeated by Jesus Christ and to live in that reality.

You see, I still sin but unlike before, I'm not accused before God in my own eyes anymore and so these sins have no more power on my ability to live in relationship with God.
If I go about telling people how sinners they are, it's the best way to keep them away from God because their sins will accuse them day and night before God.

Anyway, we won't change anybody's mind, I let that job to Father.

[jabcat]

I do not believe that either, somewhere you misread my words.

Maybe we're having a communication issue, but when you say this "You guys can call sins and sinners all you want but the truth of the matter is that there is no condamnation for those in Jesus Christ and since we are all universal salvation believers, that means EVERYONE" - to me that sounds very much like what you're saying. 

"Also pray that we may be rescued from worthless and evil people, since not everyone holds to the faith."   2 Thessalonians 3:2

In this whole discussion, I don't believe judging or condemning has been the theme, although one or two have said that's what's happening, including you saying we're "condamning people".   If not careful, we can be judging and condemning in our attitudes and behavior, but stating what the scriptures say is not in itself "condamning" anyone.  On the other hand, I believe if we're not careful we can deceive people by suggesting to them that anything they (we) do is OK - i.e., "healthy homosexual marriages".  When the scriptures state something - anything, is sinful - it's not healthy.

There's a whole of the scriptures to be sought and reconciled. 

[micah7:9]

I do not believe that either, somewhere you misread my words.

Maybe we're having a communication issue, but when you say this "You guys can call sins and sinners all you want but the truth of the matter is that there is no condamnation for those in Jesus Christ and since we are all universal salvation believers, that means EVERYONE" - to me that sounds very much like what you're saying. 

"Also pray that we may be rescued from worthless and evil people, since not everyone holds to the faith."   2 Thessalonians 3:2

In this whole discussion, I don't believe judging or condemning has been the theme, although one or two have said that's what's happening, including you saying we're "condamning people".   If not careful, we can be judging and condemning in our attitudes and behavior, but stating what the scriptures say is not in itself "condamning" anyone.  On the other hand, I believe if we're not careful we can deceive people by suggesting to them that anything they (we) do is OK - i.e., "healthy homosexual marriages".  When the scriptures state something - anything, is sinful - it's not healthy.

There's a whole of the scriptures to be sought and reconciled.

:bigGrin: :thumbsup:

[Molly]

You see, I still sin but unlike before, I'm not accused before God in my own eyes anymore and so these sins have no more power on my ability to live in relationship with God.
If I go about telling people how sinners they are, it's the best way to keep them away from God because their sins will accuse them day and night before God.

The BTK, one of the worse serial killers in the history of the country, was a Lutheran Deacon.  So how does this work according to you?  BTK goes out and tortures and kills and then goes to church and is forgiven?  So he can go out the next week and do the same thing?  And, we are not to point out his sin to him because that will cause him to stumble because we are not loving enough?  And, besides that, he's not accused before God so he can still stay in relationship with God because of Jesus?

The BTK stayed hidden from police for 40 years.  Imagine that!  How good he was at what he did.  He was finally caught because he wanted to be caught.
Somewhere in that dark psychopathic mind, there was still a conscience. 

It's our own conscience that torments us when we break God's commands, not other people.

[Michelle]

I'm currently reading: "The Shack". It's insane how much I can relate to the main character who's going through a similar spiritual crisis and much pain. :mshock:

It's also weird and insane that I'm reading that very novel as I'm going through a similar crisis. It's insane how much that book speaks to me... :mshock:

If you haven't read: "The Shack", you really should. It's a very good book, by W. Paul Young...