Someone help me, please...

[Beloved Servant]

Who of us has not fallen into one of the categories listed below?

Revelation 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


Do they all not have the same fate?

[jabcat]

..the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Do they all not have the same fate?

If thought through a little more, I don't think you really mean "so live like you want, no matter what the scriptures teach us".

Yes, we will all be cleansed.  In the meantime, "to whom much is given, much is required".


And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For to whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required... Luke 12:47,48

(J. Preston Eby, Lake of Fire)   "There should be no question remaining as to the certainty of this lake of fire; neither should there be any doubt as to the awful consequence of having to be cast into it. These Scriptures with their dreadful foreboding should be a fearful warning to all unthinking and foolish people who, because of their love for the world, the flesh, and the devil, have dared to ask why we should serve God now if all are going to be saved eventually."

Blessings.

[shawn]

Why do you keep switching from praying to God/liking God/fighting heresy --- to hating God in your posts?

I think it's clear that Michelle is in a battle.  We should all remind ourselves of our own personal struggles with faith.  I doubt any of us would be here had there not been some sort of spiritual crisis in our lives.

[Beloved Servant]

No James, I am referring to Matthew 7:3.

[jabcat]

OK, thanks.  Interesting, Matthew 7:5 as well;   "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."   I'm never that "good", so sometimes I try to share and then let God do the rest.

Maybe someone is judging, I don't know.  It is a balance between believing what the scriptures say and sharing with others, while remembering to love and not condemn or judge at the same time.  Probably something most struggle with, in one way or another.  I  often don't recognize it, and it's ironic how we're so apt to not recognize it in ourselves.

Not judging doesn't negate what the rest of the scriptures teach us as well.  If so, it seems maybe Apostle Paul and Mr. Eby are both judging - which I personally don't think they are, or at the very least, they're judging righteously (their log removed).  IMO, sharing it in love is key, and being a very flawed individual, it's something I often fail at, yet aspire to do.  Baby/bathwater...it's a challenge.

Peace.

[Lefein]

I think it's clear that Michelle is in a battle.  We should all remind ourselves of our own personal struggles with faith.  I doubt any of us would be here had there not been some sort of spiritual crisis in our lives.

I understand that she's in a battle, but it is difficult to provide help with the way this battle is being expressed.

[Miriam]

IMO, coming into an understanding of UR (and other deep things of God) does include re-thinking many things.  However, as I've witnessed, I believe we need to beware of the danger of "throwing out the baby with the bathwater", i.e., throwing out everything just for the sake of "changing", going from orthodoxy to "whatever". 

Mostly, if we pray, stay close to God, stay in the Word, and let it change us rather than attempting to change it, the Spirit will lead us into truth. 

Blessings, James.

Yes. I too am aware of the danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater but am also challenged in many areas to think it possible that I may be mistaken.

Thank you, James, I found the whole of your post very interesting and will be looking at what you say in my studies of these words.

[jabcat]

 :bigGrin:    I'll say it again - it's a challenge.  I've swung back and forth on some things since God showed me UR, etc.  Sometimes going too far, getting my spanking,  being led by the hand back to something, while sometimes away from something else.   

There's a saying that tickles my funny bone.  "I don't want to become so open-minded that my brains fall out".   

Do you think that's different than having a hole in one's head?    :wink3:

[Beloved Servant]

http://www.millettephotomedia.com/en/pics/474_hemerocallis_woman_at_the_well_%28daylily%29_0267.html

[micah7:9]

No James, I am referring to Matthew 7:3.

Okay, what does Matt.7:3 and 7:5 mean?

Mat 7:3  `And why dost thou behold the mote that is in thy brother's eye, and the beam that is in thine own eye dost not consider?

Matthew 7:5 as well;   "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."   I'm never that "good", so sometimes I try to share and then let God do the rest.

There is a mote or speck and a beam or a large piece of lumber. Which is worse off or is one not at bad?

[shawn]

I think it's clear that Michelle is in a battle.  We should all remind ourselves of our own personal struggles with faith.  I doubt any of us would be here had there not been some sort of spiritual crisis in our lives.

I understand that she's in a battle, but it is difficult to provide help with the way this battle is being expressed.

I hear ya Lefein.  I think what Michelle might not understand is that many of us are truly in love with Christ.  When someone you love is insulted it hurts.  So, I do get it.  What I know is this...her battle is not a knowledge or an understanding battle.  Though she might believe it is.  It's a trust and faith battle.  But, I have faith that God is doing a work and that Michelle will be brought into the fullness of his rest.  But, she isn't going down without a fight.   :laughing7:

[Beloved Servant]

Micah, finger-pointing at another person's sin only exemplifies the blindness to our own.

[jabcat]

I've gone back and tried to find where anyone actually finger-pointed at anyone else's sin in this thread.  I didn't find that exactly (maybe there's been some "tone" issues).  I do see that some things have been stated as to what the scriptures say and how one interprets that;  which is not necessarily the same thing as "finger-pointing" or judging.  It can be, if it's done about a particular individual, especially in a condemning (not helping) manner.  But to point out and discuss what the scriptures say?  2 different things, IMO, though it can be a challenge to not have a judgemental, "wrong" attitude.    :2c:

Seems judging can also be making the judgment that others are judging, and then the other making the judgment that the other person's judging others as judging, ad infinitim... It's a tricky binezz.  :laughing7:

Boils down to none of us have stones to throw, but we also can discuss the scrips and what we think they mean.  :dontknow:

[jabcat]

micah, attempting to address your Q;

It likely means more than this, something as you say, that some things are worse than others?  But I think at least it means, if I'm expressly pointing out your deficiencies, I most likely have my own as well – and maybe they're even worse.  Also, then that I need to address my own issues before I start telling you that you need to work on something – then I might legitimately help you with yours.  Still though, I believe with an attitude of trying to help rather then trying to "conquer".  I've done both.

However, that's why I say that I haven't ever "conquered" all my own issues, so the best I can really do is strive to share what I see in the scriptures, share what God may have shown me and helped me with or dealt with me about, then let Him do His work – and attempt to be led by the Spirit if I truly do need to act on something.  To me, it's not judging to share what the Word says, especially if done in a good attitude (which can be a challenge).  IMO, the judging comes in with condemning, just picking and finding fault, telling people they're in trouble with God, etc.  I believe if we're not careful, we can go too far one way or the other - so legalistic and condemning that we're judging, or, so "accepting" that we can't even state what the scriptures say (or be OK with anyone else doing it).  That's why I say it's a balance.  It's a tricky business, easily messed up.  I do it plenty. 


Going back and reading some of our own posts can be enlightening.  I need to do so again.


Well, carry on.  We'll be made perfect some day.

[Beloved Servant]

John 5:22;
...for neither doth the Father judge any one, but all the judgment He hath given to the Son


John 8:11;
...and Jesus said to her, "Neither do I pass sentence on thee;


Matthew 12: 37;
For each of you by his words shall be justified, or by his words shall be condemned.

[Michelle]

The King James says "bethroded her to himself" instead of "designated her for himself". We're talking about marriage and sexual intercourses with little girls here. And that's God talking and condomning pedophilia...

I don't see that Michelle.  It's talking about the rules for Hebrew 'maidservants' and 'menservants'.  I don't see any talk here about children.  Somebody is lying to you if they say this applies to children under the age of 12.

Who says this applies to children?  And since when are children called maids and men?

"maidservant"

H519
אמה
'âmâh
aw-maw'
Apparently a primitive word; a maidservant or female slave: - (hand-) bondmaid (-woman,) maid (-servant).

In both Exodus 21:7-11 and Numbers 31:17-18? Then why using the terms "GIRLS" and women "CHILDREN"?

The fact remains that it shouldn't apply to neither female nor male under the age of 18... And how are we supposed to trust english translations when they are so full of mistranslated words? I wish I could read Greek and Hebrew, but I'd never be able to. It's a whole bunch of weird letters. My native language is french (I'm french Canadian) and it took me two years to learn english. I had to learn it on my own because the way they taught it in school just didn't work for me. I'm both a visual and auditory learner, so audio tapes just didn't work for me. I had to learn it with DVD movies and subtitle, books and dictionnaries. I tried to learn spanish once. After a week, I gave up. How do you, yourself, translate from the Greek and Hebrew and which Bibles do you use?

Michelle they are not.  This is talking about men and women.
Exodus 21:7-11

7And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.
8If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.

9And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters.



Numbers 31 is talking about the spoils of war.  'Keep [the female children] alive for yourselves.'  What does that mean?  That doesn't say anything about hurting or raping children.  It says to keep the innocent female children alive.  The phrase ['for yourselves'] is not even in the Hebrew.  They are allowed to take the innocent female children into the tribe.  This passage is cross referenced to Deut 21.  They marry women, Michelle, not children.

17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive [for yourselves]. <---- added by the translator of KJV



Here are the rules in Deuteronomy on treating captives.  There's nothing here about taking children for wives, Michelle.  If they are treating women captives this well, what would make you think they would hurt children?



Deuteronomy 21:10-14

Marrying Female Captives
10"When you go out to war against your enemies, and the LORD your God gives them into your hand and you take them captive, 11and you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and you desire to take her to be your wife, 12and you bring her home to your house, she shall shave her head and pare her nails. 13And she shall take off the clothes in which she was captured and shall remain in your house and lament her father and her mother a full month. After that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife. 14But if you no longer delight in her, you shall let her go where she wants. But you shall not sell her for money, nor shall you treat her as a slave, since you have humiliated her.

That's what I was talking about. How am I supposed to trust any of the english translations when they are so full of "mistranslanted words"? Like the ET doctrine? For all I know, those weren't "mistranslated words", but deliberate sabotage, Bible perversion, lies to support some hideous traditions of men and doctrines of demons. The whole ET doctrine is way too evil to be "mistranslated words", to be a simple mistakes. Jesus and the apostles spoke Hebrew and Greek. And all english Bibles have been perverted in some ways. Like the Bibles that have anything to do with Wescott and Hort (two occultists, they contributed  to the infamous NIV Bible too), the Bibles that attack or denying the deity of Christ in many ways, one of them being saying that everything was made "THROUGH" Him, instead of "BY" Him. Jesus is God in the flesh. Everything was made BY Him and not THROUGH Him. And what about all the modern versions? Several verses have been removed. Many words too and I'm not talking about minor corrections here. I'm talking about words like "Christ", "Lord", "blood", "repent" and "worship". Robbing Jesus of worship. And important passages like: "The earth is the Lord's", "Get thee behind me, Satan!", "Thou shall not bear false witnesses" and many others. The modern versions attack the virgin birth, the blood atonement, the deity of Christ, the bodily resurrection, the second coming and even in some modern versions (NIV, NASB, TNIV, ESV, HCSB, NRSV), turn the Lord's prayer into a prayer to Satan. What does that tell you about Wescott & Hort? And I'm not even talking about the NIV calling Satan the Morning Star instead of the son of the Morning. That was to make people believe that Jesus and Satan are one and the same. Did you know that in many modern versions, that passage about fasting has been removed? Jesus said that some demons are so tough that they can only go out by prayer AND FASTING. Now why would anyone remove that part unless those that have tampered with the scriptures don't want us to get rid of the tougher demons? Just give me a good reason to ever trust any of the english translation.

Who is Jesus? Who is satan?

Jesus is the Bright and Morning Star

satan is son of the morning.

The KJV and the NKJV are consistant in this.

KJV
Isaiah 14:12
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

KJV
Revelation 22:16
16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

NKJV
Isaiah 14 NKJV
12 " How you are fallen from heaven,  O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!

NKJV
Revelation 22:16
"I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star

But lets see how the NIV calls satan and Jesus.

NIV
Isaiah 14:12
How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

NIV
Revelation 22:16
16"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

The NIV calls both Jesus and satan the Morning Star. I wonder what kind of occultists use this scripture to indoctrinate their initiates into thinking Jesus and satan are one and the same being? What I know is that it is sickening and utter heresy. What does that tell you about Wescott & Hort? The NIV is an abomination and I wouldn't touch a NIV Bible with a ten foot pole. No true, self-respected Christian would ever use a NIV Bible, because, among other things, the name of Jesus has been removed in 38 places. Rupert Murdoch who owns the rights to the NIV Bible also owns the rights to the satanic bible and the publishing house of those two Bibles also owns the right to a book entitled: "The joy of gay sex." Murdoch has put the NIV under the same umbrella as the TV Guide, which he also owned. And he runs porn channels. The NIV is a total perversion...   

Now, that is a KJV only site and they are ET believers, but you can check their claims on the missing verses, ommitted words and corruption in the modern versions (forget the mistranslated words here, I'm talking about missing verses, important ommitted words such as ("God", "Christ", "Jesus", "worship", "blood", "repent", "fasting", etc) and important passages removed):

http://www.av1611.org/nkjv.html

http://www.av1611.org/biblecom.html

http://www.av1611.org/biblevs.html

http://www.av1611.org/biblewrd.html

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer's%20Corner/worship_jesus.htm

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/jesus_is_almighty_god.htm

Here we see clearly that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one. I John 5:7 reads as follows:

NIV- For there are three that testify:

NASV- And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth.

NWT- For there are three witness bearers,

KJV- For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, The Word, and the Holy Ghost: AND THESE THREE ARE ONE. (emphasis mine)

A direct attack on the Trinity, the Triune God. And if there is one things, one things ABOVE ALL ELSE that really, really INFURIATES ME, it's a direct attack on the Trinity, Molly... Nothing infuriates me more than that, NOTHING... I'm boiling and seething with rage...

Another example of perversion, in Revelation 1:8:

NIV- 8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." 11 which said: "Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea."

NASV- "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." 11 saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."

NWT- 8 "I am the Al'pha and the Omega," says Jehovah God, "the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty." 11 saying: "What you see write in a scroll and send it to the seven congregations, in Ephesus and in Smyrna and in Pergamum and in Thyatira and in Sardis and in Philadelphia and in Laodicea."

KJV- 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. (emphasis mine)

How about this?

1 Timothy 3:16

NIV- Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body,...

NASV- And by common confession great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh,

NWT- Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: 'He was made manifest in flesh,...'

KJV- And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh,

Here it is easy to see why the Jehovah's Witnesses translated this verse as they did since they completely reject that Jesus was "God manifest in the flesh". It is quite shameful that the NIV and the NASV have followed along with this corrupt work in changing "God" to "He". Of course "He" appeared in a body, Paul appeared in a body, you appeared in a body, and I appeared in a body. The NIV and the NASV have completely changed the essence of this verse by translating it as "He". Despite the overwhelming manuscript evidence the NIV and the NASV alter their text to read "He".

Now we want to look at Phil. 2:6. This is a very familiar verse that should be well-known to most. Pay special attention to the wording of each Bible. (emphasis mine)

NIV- Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

NASV- who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

NWT- who, although he was existing in God's form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.

KJV- Who, being in the form of GOD, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Did Jesus consider Himself equal with God or not? Both cannot be correct! Here the NIV, NASV, and NWT all agree, however, they are in direct opposition to what the KJV says. The NIV, NASV, and NWT clearly contradict the teaching of the Trinity and negates much of the teaching of past church history. It is easy to see how and why the NWT does so but what about the NIV and NASV? Again we see that the NIV and the NASV side with the Jehovah's Witnesses Bible in detracting from the Deity of Christ.

Those are only a few examples...

I'm really sorry, guys. Okay? I'm really sorry. But when I see that, I just can't shut up. This is not merely mistranslated words, this is not just some mistakes. I had to say something, okay? I just had to, so don't shoot the messenger. Now, I know that the 1611 KJV is not perfect and without "errors". None of the english translations are... I'm going through a lot right now and when see these things just make me doubt the Bible more and more. Not because I think God is a liar. But because human translators can be. The ET doctrine was not the only bad thing that found its way into the english translations. If I knew a fast and easy way to learn Hebrew and Greek, I would do it. But from what I've heard, it takes years to learn those languages...

http://falseflags.wordpress.com/2009/12/22/were-westcott-and-hort-occultists/

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20101218132845AAnqkob

About Number 31:18, Molly, if "for yourself" was added by the KJV translators, how come those words are not in ITALIC? Another deception? And why killing the boys and sparing the girls? Here we go again. Paul is all about Misogyny in the NT and Moses is a sexist too! No child should ever be murdered! They only took them into the tribe because females can bear children. That's all the Bible and religion (especially catholism) is all about; women are child factories and children bearers, sexual objects and possessions. Kill all the male children. As if the lives of little boys worth less and were less important than the lives of little girls. It's all sexism again. It's all or nothing, no middle ground. Misogyny or sexism towards little boys. About Deuteronomy 21:10-14, you think those women were treated well? Did those women had a choice whether or not to marry those men or to have sexual intercourses with them? "Go in unto her" = taking her, sex. The woman clearly didn't have a choice. God doesn't mention her rights not once in the passage. He doesn't say that she can refuse and leave. She is taken captive, married and taken against her will and she doesn't have her say in the matter. Women shaving their hair and pailing their nails is utter misogyny and women abuse. People should decide for their own bodies. A woman who is shaved and her nailed taken off is clearly a victim of abuse. God is clearly saying that she is taken captive and cry the death of her mother and father, which clearly means that the man murdered her family or that the man's tribe murdered her family, and she has no choice but to live with the man and tribe who murdered her family. God condomn that woman being taken captive which means by force, against her will, dragged into the house and kept there against her will.. God says the man is to have sexual intercourse with her (going in unto her) and the passage clearly let you know that she can't refuse or walk away and leave. Then He says that if she is no longer pleasing or beautiful in his eyes, the man can just dump her like garbage. And whether the word "humbling" or "humiliating" is used here, it clearly means since she had no choice but to have sex with him, that he raped her. Which is clearly more of an humiliation than humbleness. God clearly say in that passage that if the man think that the woman is beautiful, he can just drag her to her house, keep her captive as a possession and take her by force. The woman has no choice, she can't refuse, cannot walk away, cannot leave. She is married and taken against her will and only the man is allowed to put her away, he has all rights and she has none. God is clearly saying that the woman has no right. How about woman have to marry their rapists? Can't women just decide whether they want to marry or not and who they want to marry and decide if they want to have sex or not? Why do God creates human beings and don't let them decide whether or not they want do these things? And what about Paul who says a woman's body belongs to her husband and the other way around? Can't people just decide for their own bodies? Their bodies are theirs and theirs alone and no one else's. Nothing justifies forced marriage and rape. Nothing justifies taking someone by force, violating and sullying someone, invading their bodies. Absolutely nothing. Women are sentient beings, not objects, possessions and child factories. They have a right to say no and walk away. Paul's teachings and the catholic church caused a great deal of damage to women, because the church forced them to have children by the dozens and threatened them of excommunication and eternal torment. And they condemn birth control and that is why there is so much poverty on this planet and why so many children sufferd from being neglected and malnutrition...

:sigh: Even the 1611 KJV is unreliable... My whole world is falling apart... Why did God had that Bible sent to me and why did He let me believe the gross, evil ET lie for so many years? Why did He allow all those people to get to my mind, to indoctrinate and brainwash me? Bibles translated by occultists or New Age movement, Bibles that attack the deity of Christ and the Trinity, Hellfire Bibles... Is there a single thing in the universe that isn't actually a lie? Is my whole life from birth to now nothing but a lie? I'm caught between reading my Bible or throwing it out of the window, trapped between  who I was and who I am. "The 1611 KJV is the only inspired and innerant Word of God." What a joke... All those Bible "errors" and all those things that cause me to question all of my beliefs is driving me crazy. I am SO TIRED of feeling DESTABILIZED...

I suggest we take this to the PMs, Molly. Let's just take it to the PMs...   

[micah7:9]

Micah, finger-pointing at another person's sin only exemplifies the blindness to our own.

Well, Glory Halleujha! You got it! Glory glory glory!!!!  I thank you my friend, not many see that.

[micah7:9]

micah, attempting to address your Q;

It likely means more than this, something as you say, that some things are worse than others?  But I think at least it means, if I'm expressly pointing out your deficiencies, I most likely have my own as well – and maybe they're even worse.  Also, then that I need to address my own issues before I start telling you that you need to work on something – then I might legitimately help you with yours.  Still though, I believe with an attitude of trying to help rather then trying to "conquer".  I've done both.

However, that's why I say that I haven't ever "conquered" all my own issues, so the best I can really do is strive to share what I see in the scriptures, share what God may have shown me and helped me with or dealt with me about, then let Him do His work – and attempt to be led by the Spirit if I truly do need to act on something.  To me, it's not judging to share what the Word says, especially if done in a good attitude (which can be a challenge).  IMO, the judging comes in with condemning, just picking and finding fault, telling people they're in trouble with God, etc.  I believe if we're not careful, we can go too far one way or the other - so legalistic and condemning that we're judging, or, so "accepting" that we can't even state what the scriptures say (or be OK with anyone else doing it).  That's why I say it's a balance.  It's a tricky business, easily messed up.  I do it plenty. 


Going back and reading some of our own posts can be enlightening.  I need to do so again.


Well, carry on.  We'll be made perfect some day.

I want this to be modest, Jabcat you did well, you discerned and answered well, you saw it all. You deserve your post. I love you my friend. :HeartThrob:

[Michelle]

I need the most accurate translations, as exactly rendered as possible.

The Young's Literal translation, which a number of people here use, is available online:

http://online-bible-study.net/youngs-literal-online-bible/

*Sulking* The YLT says that the Word was TOWARDS God instead of WITH GOD and calls the living Word who became flesh a IT instead of a HE. Jesus is a PERSON, not a IT. Can you believe that some Bibles call the Holy Spirit a IT? Including the freaking-so-called-inerrant-Word-of-God 1611 KJV...

[Lefein]

Michelle, you aren't going to get a perfect translation.  They simply don't exist.

But if it helps you - for the Old Testament at least, take a look at The Septuagint, there are English translations of it though they use the words "for ever" and "everlasting" but that shouldn't be too difficult to deal with if your faith is in God, not a book.

[shawn]

I have already had this discussion several times, and often it seems we often go away still seeing it as we already did.  However, I know God can and does change our heart and thoughts as we seek Him and He seeks us ("draw near to God and He will draw near to you"  James. 4:8).   In the end it probably does little good to really argue about topics such as this - state our beliefs, our thoughts, what we see, then let God do the rest.

I leave the OT laws out of the discussion, at least partly due to context, the situation/relationship between God and Israel at that time.  I focus on the New Testament in this area, where IMO, Apostle Paul still makes it very clear to the ecclesia in the current "church" age. Personally my stance is this, from an earlier post;

"I am aware of the arguments over the words, including by the (what I consider) very suspect "Jesus Seminar" folks.  Based on what I've personally seen and studied (limited, I'm no scholar) I believe the translations of the following words  actually are accurate - not just the words themselves, but within a larger context of other scriptures, such as the few lines I end the post with -


I'll post the words and translations, but then also say that even without the specific words in question, the NT also defines the situation in other words -

The words and their references;

"Be not deceived, neither ...effeminate [Gk: malakos-catamite/boy with man sex] shall inherit the kingdom of God" (I Cor. 6:9-10).

"Be not deceived, neither ...abusers of themselves with mankind [Gk: arsenokoites-sodomites/male bed partners/male-liers] shall inherit the kingdom of God" (I Cor. 6:9-10).

Some of the other passages without "the words"...in Romans 1

"to dishonor their own bodies between themselves"
"women did change the natural use into that which is against nature"
"men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men"

IMO, coming into an understanding of UR (and other deep things of God) does include re-thinking many things.  However, as I've witnessed, I believe we need to beware of the danger of "throwing out the baby with the bathwater", i.e., throwing out everything just for the sake of "changing", going from orthodoxy to "whatever". 

Mostly, if we pray, stay close to God, stay in the Word, and let it change us rather than attempting to change it, the Spirit will lead us into truth. 

Blessings, James.

I must agree.  I think this starts from realizing we all have our struggles.  Some of us battle with lust, addiction, gossip, grumbling, lying, homosexual attractions etc.  In that realization, we can offer our hand in brotherly/sisterly love to those who also struggle with homosexuality.  But, loving the person doesn't mean we have to accept the practices of homosexuality.  Scipture states it is clearly sin, and taking that stance isn't judgmental. 

But, where I believe the church can sometimes fail is taking an either/or approach to homosexuals who might enter their doors.  Either they are shunned and beat with doctrine and threats, or they are told ehh it's ok God loves you anyway.  While I believe God loves all of mankind, including homosexuals, adulterers, murders, liars, gossipers, etc...I also believe he loves us enough to change us if we are willing to seek his face.

I have a genetic predispostion towards obsessive compulsive behaviors, which when misdirected can lead to addiction.  That was my lot, one of the many things within myself that needed to be put to death.  I don't believe homosexuality is any different.  God has the capacity to change a person including their sexual appetites and attractions.

[Molly]

About Number 31:18, Molly, if "for yourself" was added by the KJV translators, how come those words are not in ITALIC? Another deception? And why killing the boys and sparing the girls? Here we go again. Paul is all about Misogyny in the NT and Moses is a sexist too! No child should ever be murdered! They only took them into the tribe because females can bear children. That's all the Bible and religion (especially catholism) is all about; women are child factories and children bearers, sexual objects and possessions. Kill all the male children. As if the lives of little boys worth less and were less important than the lives of little girls. It's all sexism again. It's all or nothing, no middle ground. Misogyny or sexism towards little boys. About Deuteronomy 21:10-14, you think those women were treated well? Did those women had a choice whether or not to marry those men or to have sexual intercourses with them? "Go in unto her" = taking her, sex. The woman clearly didn't have a choice. God doesn't mention her rights not once in the passage. He doesn't say that she can refuse and leave. She is taken captive, married and taken against her will and she doesn't have her say in the matter. Women shaving their hair and pailing their nails is utter misogyny and women abuse. People should decide for their own bodies. A woman who is shaved and her nailed taken off is clearly a victim of abuse. God is clearly saying that she is taken captive and cry the death of her mother and father, which clearly means that the man murdered her family or that the man's tribe murdered her family, and she has no choice but to live with the man and tribe who murdered her family. God condomn that woman being taken captive which means by force, against her will, dragged into the house and kept there against her will.. God says the man is to have sexual intercourse with her (going in unto her) and the passage clearly let you know that she can't refuse or walk away and leave. Then He says that if she is no longer pleasing or beautiful in his eyes, the man can just dump her like garbage. And whether the word "humbling" or "humiliating" is used here, it clearly means since she had no choice but to have sex with him, that he raped her. Which is clearly more of an humiliation than humbleness. God clearly say in that passage that if the man think that the woman is beautiful, he can just drag her to her house, keep her captive as a possession and take her by force. The woman has no choice, she can't refuse, cannot walk away, cannot leave. She is married and taken against her will and only the man is allowed to put her away, he has all rights and she has none. God is clearly saying that the woman has no right. How about woman have to marry their rapists? Can't women just decide whether they want to marry or not and who they want to marry and decide if they want to have sex or not? Why do God creates human beings and don't let them decide whether or not they want do these things? And what about Paul who says a woman's body belongs to her husband and the other way around? Can't people just decide for their own bodies? Their bodies are theirs and theirs alone and no one else's. Nothing justifies forced marriage and rape. Nothing justifies taking someone by force, violating and sullying someone, invading their bodies. Absolutely nothing. Women are sentient beings, not objects, possessions and child factories. They have a right to say no and walk away. Paul's teachings and the catholic church caused a great deal of damage to women, because the church forced them to have children by the dozens and threatened them of excommunication and eternal torment. And they condemn birth control and that is why there is so much poverty on this planet and why so many children sufferd from being neglected and malnutrition...

Even the 1611 KJV is unreliable... My whole world is falling apart... Why did God had that Bible sent to me and why did He let me believe the gross, evil ET lie for so many years? Why did He allow all those people to get to my mind, to indoctrinate and brainwash me? Bibles translated by occultists or New Age movement, Bibles that attack the deity of Christ and the Trinity, Hellfire Bibles... Is there a single thing in the universe that isn't actually a lie? Is my whole life from birth to now nothing but a lie? I'm caught between reading my Bible or throwing it out of the window, trapped between  who I was and who I am. "The 1611 KJV is the only inspired and innerant Word of God." What a joke... All those Bible "errors" and all those things that cause me to question all of my beliefs is driving me crazy. I am SO TIRED of feeling DESTABILIZED...

I suggest we take this to the PMs, Molly. Let's just take it to the PMs...   

Michelle, download E-Sword and look for yourself at the Greek and Hebrew words.  Nobody is trying to deceive you.  A lot of discretion is always left to the translators of any document.  One has to hope they have input from the Holy Spirit for the Bible.  Some might have personal agendas.  But you can translate it for yourself in these last days.

God was taking a people out of barbarism  and setting them aside for himself when he chose the Hebrews.   So it doesn't please you that he ordered them to treat the women captives well because that meant forcing them into marriage?  Compared to what?  What do barbarians do to women in your experience?  Even in this country women have only had the vote for some 90 years.  That's a lifetime to some.  What happens to women in other countries even today?

You need to slow down and use Jesus as your foundation.  The risen Christ presented himself first to women--that is how much he esteems women.  That's all you need to know.

I don't do pm's.  Too hard for me.  But, you see one thing that sets you off and it's off to the races.  Slow down and trust God.

[shawn]

Molly said, "Slow down and trust God".

Amen.  That word isn't just for Michelle.  I needed a bit of that myself. 

[Quaesitor]

Hi Michelle,

I don't have the perfect answer for you because YES, the OT is filled with violence and barbary and we often believe that everything which is in there or which is done by godly men are from God.
I don't believe that is true and I also believe that you have to see the whole counsel of God in this matter because things he first asked, He later dismissed.
The law of Moises is what it is, the law of Moises, it is NOT the law of God, it is not the perfection of human morale, it is the showcasing of human wickedness.
That is what the whole Bible is all about, showing the true violence in the human heart.

At least that is what I believe, after having read the work of men like Rene Girard and Mark Heim.

They explain that religious history of other people on the earth is always taught in myth where violence is embellished or hidden, but the Bible is different, violence is shown in all it's disgusting presence and serious sins are present even in the most godly men.
They go on to tell us that it is this same violence which is shown and specifically the passion story presented in full gore and suffering that makes us disgusted by all the blatant injustice and obvious brutality.

I don't have the verse here but I think that in Ezekiel, there is a part where God says that it was to horrify Israel that He asked for the to sacrifice their firstborns.

The times where we believe God is changing His mind is really parts where he is trying the hearts of men.

Jesus brought a new commandment, which makes us righteous to all the others: Love God and Love your neighbors.
This was where all the violence has been leading us to.

So what I think is that you're not in a doubting process but on the RIGHT TRACK, keep searching God, our gracious and loving Father!

:HeartThrob:
:happygrin:

[jabcat]

I have already had this discussion several times, and often it seems we often go away still seeing it as we already did.  However, I know God can and does change our heart and thoughts as we seek Him and He seeks us ("draw near to God and He will draw near to you"  James. 4:8).   In the end it probably does little good to really argue about topics such as this - state our beliefs, our thoughts, what we see, then let God do the rest.

"men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men"

IMO, coming into an understanding of UR (and other deep things of God) does include re-thinking many things.  However, as I've witnessed, I believe we need to beware of the danger of "throwing out the baby with the bathwater", i.e., throwing out everything just for the sake of "changing", going from orthodoxy to "whatever". 

Mostly, if we pray, stay close to God, stay in the Word, and let it change us rather than attempting to change it, the Spirit will lead us into truth. 

Blessings, James.

I must agree.  I think this starts from realizing we all have our struggles.  Some of us battle with lust, addiction, gossip, grumbling, lying, homosexual attractions etc.  In that realization, we can offer our hand in brotherly/sisterly love to those who also struggle with homosexuality.  But, loving the person doesn't mean we have to accept the practices of homosexuality.  Scipture states it is clearly sin, and taking that stance isn't judgmental. 

But, where I believe the church can sometimes fail is taking an either/or approach to homosexuals who might enter their doors.  Either they are shunned and beat with doctrine and threats, or they are told ehh it's ok God loves you anyway.  While I believe God loves all of mankind, including homosexuals, adulterers, murders, liars, gossipers, etc...I also believe he loves us enough to change us if we are willing to seek his face.

I have a genetic predispostion towards obsessive compulsive behaviors, which when misdirected can lead to addiction.  That was my lot, one of the many things within myself that needed to be put to death.  I don't believe homosexuality is any different.  God has the capacity to change a person including their sexual appetites and attractions.

Amen Shawn.   Sin is sin.  If done in the right attitude, I believe we need to hear what the scriptures have to say about it.  IMO, it's one part of the salt and light.   I have much of my own, and we all have brokenness that needs to be fixed.   :2c: