Someone help me, please...

[Michelle]

Gary will be posting on this OT issue soon.  He has studied it extensively, has a heart for those struggling with these issues (who doesn't?) and has some points he'd like to make that honestly, are different than some of the views pneuma has presented.  Textual criticism is such a slippery slope, some just take advantage of the opportunity and things deteriorate quickly. 

Love and grace prevail, and the desire is to minister and pursue the truth.   :HeartThrob:

But don't you think that some of the things Pneuma said are worth looking into?

Gary Amirault is mightily used by the Lord and like King David, is a man after the Lord's heart. I have no doubt that he's been anointed to be a great teacher. I have watched many of his videos on his Youtube channel. A lot of the things he said spoke to me and stretched my thinking. And I'm very glad he will post on this OT issue and that he has studied it extensively. Not everyone has the material, the ressources and the experience. We can thank God that we have this man with us. God bless him and you as well...   

[pneuma]

Pneuma that was beautiful, what about "all scripture is God breathed"?  I was lockstep with you until that popped into my head.  A thought that even in the scribes lying pen, Father being who He is used those stories as patterns for us, (which would lead me possibly to the conclusion that they misunderstood, since He was laying the pattern and they carnalized it) either way What man meant for evil God meant for good.   :HeartThrob:

Hi RHM, all scripture is God breathed, but as I said in my opening not everything in the bible is scripture.

That is my last statement concerning this topic RHM as the topic of scripture is a topic that Tents does not believe is profitable and leads to food fights, and they are correct in their assessment as it has done this before.

It is not my intent to cause a food fight, I posted what I did because I saw a sister who was looking for some answers and felt led to post what I had been given to understand as I have been where she is now.

The powers that be here at Tents believe me to be wrong in what I posted, however they were good enough to let my post stand even though it goes against what is in the policy at Tents. For this I am thankful to them.

But you know something, I have been told that what I see is wrong pretty much my whole life (I am use to it now) for over 30 years I have been teaching the restitution of all things and everyone I knew believed me to be in error only to find out later that what they perceived in me to be error was actually true.

Therefore, so that I do not step on any toes or post contrary to Tents policies, I ask that if anyone has any question about what I have written to please feel free to pm me and I will answer them through pm.

God bless

[pneuma]

Now you asked concerning some of the things you have read in the bible concerning the OT.

Things such as God commanding the killings of innocent men, women and children.

Well there are 3 outlooks on this; one is abhorrent, the other 2 are most probable.

1 God actually commanded people to do these things (this is the abhorrent one)
2 People misunderstood what God was actually saying and literally did what He was saying when He was speaking spiritually.
3 The lying pen of the scribes added to the scriptures saying God said such and such when God never said anything of the kind.

We read is scripture

All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.  23And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see: 24For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them

We also read

12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:  13And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
Michelle What people believe about God is what they write about Him, it does not make what they believe and write true. Only that which Jesus states about God is true and right, all others write under a vail of ignorance.

And the reason people see our kind loving Father in a bad light is because people still see God as portrayed though the eyes of ignorant, unenlightened men who wrote under a veil of darkness and did not know the Father. And because people insist on listening to the lying pen of the scribes instead of listening to what Jesus says of the Father.

On the mount of transfiguration Peter, James and John wanted to build 3 tabernacles. One for Moses, one for Elijah and one for Jesus. God said not so, He (speaking of Jesus) is my beloved son HEAR HIM. Michelle people are still listening to Moses and Elijah, men who were under the vail of ignorance and did not really know the Father.

Yes they knew the Father but did not fully know the Father, only Jesus and those He revealed the Father to know and understand the Father.

So did God really command people to kill innocent women and children as recorded in the OT? (this is the view held by most)

Or

Did Moses misunderstand what God was saying and did literally, what God meant spiritually?

Example: God commanded Moses to kill all his enemies, innocent men, women and children.
Now there are two ways one can kill their enemies, one by literally killing them; the other by making their enemies their friends thereby in effect killing their enemies.
Moses, misunderstanding God literally killed his enemies, thinking to do God a service, when God all along only meant for Moses to make his enemies his friends thereby killing his enemies.

Or

Did the lying pen of the scribes add to the scriptures and state God commanded the killings after the fact to justify themselves in killing men , women and children.

What MUST always be taken into account Michelle is God commanded THOU SHALT NOT KILL, He would not then change His mind and command killing contrary to His own command. God is steadfast and all He commands is steadfast. So we must learn to listen to HIM, Jesus Christ and those Christ revealed the Father too and STOP listening to those who think they know God.

Michelle, there are tares among the wheat of God's word written in the bibles, and as we listen to Christ the vail of ignorance is lifted and the tares are removed and we have the pure undefiled word of God written in the bible.

Hope this was of some help to you Michelle, as I know the place you are in as I have been there also.
God bless

:icon_flower: Hey, Pneuma. I just read your two posts and it all makes perfect sense! I had "The Bible is the innerant Word of God and it must be taken literally" rammed down my throat by so many Fundamentalists, including my friend. Father, forgive him for he not knows what he does and please, bless him. There are so many things to study, I wish I had the ability to read and memorize many things at once. There are so many things that I don't know of. And I have been endoctrinated and brainwashed for so many years. God really made some miraculous changes in me, but there are many things that I must learn. Please, pray for me and ask God to show me my erronous beliefs that are the result of so many years of endoctrination and brainwashing. God bless you.

Glad you can see what I was saying Michelle and my God give you a decerning heart and mind toward all that He is.
God bless

[Michelle]

"I am writing this, not knowing whether you have been "born from above," or baptized in His Spirit. Without this probably even what I've written will not make sense. "You must be born from above. That which is flesh is flesh and that which is Spirit is Spirit." "My words are Spirit and truth." If one does not have "ears to hear" then the bible and everything I've said is foolishness."

I am born from above. But due to years of endoctrination and brainwashing, I have many erronous beliefs and difficulty to understand the scriptures the way you do because, first, I don't have your experience, and secondly, I've been told for years to take all scriptures literally. That does not mean I'm not saved and born again, it only means that I'm learning and dealing with years of endoctrination and brainwashing (E.T doctrine and other stuff). I don't understand everything you said, but I understand the general message. I trust that God will work and I will eventually understand. That's always how it happens. First, I don't understand something and then WHAM! Also, I'm struggling and dealing with a lot of things, so I have a hard time focussing on anything these days. My mind constantly wanders from one thing to the other. It sucks. Not to mention that I have this Damnationist friend and our friendship is quickly deteriorating. I'm trying to patch the holes and mend the frienship, but nothing seems to work. In his eyes, I'm a freaking heretic. Our friendship is falling to pieces and no matter what I do, it seems to be beyond repair.

Sometimes, I could just raise my arms to the sky and shout: "WHY, GOD, WHY???" :talkangry: How many times will I have to ask the oh so important and still unanswered question before I receive an answer from Him? How many "whys" will remain unanswered? Why are my mother and sister still unsaved? Why do they love their sins so much? Why am I losing my friend? Why do I have to struggle with so many issues at once? Why was I abused when I was a kid? Why, why, why??? You have no idea how sick and tired I am of being angry. I thought I was finally rid of my anger issue, but these last few days, it seems that I have that problem again. I hate this. Anger is a love, peace and joy killer. When I first became a Christian Universalist, I walked in a state of pure, perfect love for a few days and then it wore off. Just like you. The emotional shock of losing that and the fear of abandon that I have had ever since I was kid caused me a trauma. That was about two weeks ago. I recently had a nightmare about being seperated from God. That's what years of endoctrination and brainwashing can do to a person. A lot of damage. God started to heal me, but there's a lot of healing to be done. But like you said, He will work it all out to my good, so I'm  just gonna trust Him with that...

"Well, like I said, Michelle and Pneuma, I'll gladly try to help with understanding this subject. But from past experience, it is not helpful from those who come to this board for help to open up a discussion on this topic here. It will draw people with an agenda and it will detract from the main purpose of this discussion forum."

Well, I'm sorry about that. I really needed help and I didn't know what to think or do anymore. If you have a better suggestion on what I should do in these kind of situations, please let me know. As for people with an agenda, I know a lot about it because back when I was a Fundy, I did a lot of research on the Internet as I was begging people to get saved from the wrath to come. But the NWO can't win, because God is gonna show all those corrupt politicians who rules the earth. Hail King Jesus!   

[jabcat]

If you have a better suggestion on what I should do in these kind of situations, please let me know.   Hail King Jesus!   

Michelle, Gary did have an idea for you.  Plz check your messages at the top of the forum.  I left a message earlier this afternoon in there for you from Gary.  Blessings, James.

[Michelle]

Gary has asked both Scott (pneuma) and Michelle to speak with him personally.  His desire is to minister, be of help.

Amen.

And what exactly does that mean "personally"? I'm new, so I don't exactly know how things work here. As for being of help, I think he's knocking on the wrong door. Me, I never help. I'm always twenty steps behind everyone else either because I'm clumsy or too slow because of my disability. And because of that, I've been despised and laughed at all my life.

Please, God don't let me screw up this time. I don't want to be the laughstock of this forum...:upset:

[jabcat]

There's a Message link at the top of the page.  Click on that and there'll be a message in there from me, with some information from Gary.

[Michelle]

"Ever since then, all have suffered, some horribly. But God, being life, lives through, suffers and experiences aLL sufferings which ever occur."

I hate when people tell me that and it's the last thing I want to hear. "When you hurt, He hurts". The last thing I need is guilt. I caused Him way too much pain already with the crucificion. It's even worse that I have no control over the things that happens to me so I can't stop hurting at will and free Him from that pain. Please, people, avoid this subject entirely, as I don't think I could cope with it right now and to be honest, not ever... 

If God interfered with 'free-will' (the ability to choose) it wouldn't be 'free will'! And it wouldn't work! The 'end' result would not be the same."

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/FreeMoralAgent-Eby.html

[Michelle]

"You and I, so very thankfully, have been chosen, through no goodness or wisdom on our part, to be part of that Oh so Glorious 1st Resurrection. Many others will be part of the not as joyous 2nd Resurrection (though I'm sure it catches up). They will have an agelasting time "away from the Presence of the Lord and away from the glory of His power" - 2 Thess 1:9, during that long 'day' of the examination of all things, all human history, etc, when "all the books will be opened" and "nothing will be left uncovered that is hidden". [side note: It's only after all this, that they will hear the notorious words "those not believing will go to the second death". By time all that, who's not going to "believe"?]"

There will be no seperation from God. The Bible says that they "will be "tormented" in the presence of the Lamb and the holy angels in the lake of fire" to be purified, purged and refined. No matter how bad a sinner is, God will never cause him the agony of such seperation. And no soul would ever survived TRULY seperated from Life itself. Seperation from God is a lie and a false doctrine. The word "seperation" is never used in the Bible. Whatever 2 Thess 1:9 says, it's been misinterpreted. God doesn't completely seperate Himself from His children, not even temporarily. The unsaved are said to be seperated from God since they are spiritually dead, but they are not COMPLETELY and CONSCIOUSLY seperated from God for COMPLETE seperation from Life itself would mean death of the soul (the spiritual essence) without Life to sustain it. The soul/spiritual essence of that person would be completely annihilated as if that person had never exist to begin with. Complete seperation from God is everlasting death, it is a lie and a false doctrine. Also, the "fire" will burn and destroy everything that seperate people from God. As for the second death, EVERYONE will go through it. The carnal mind must die for good for it cannot enter heaven. But those who died the first death will not be "hurt" of the second death.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheLakeOfFire-Eby.html 

I hope this helps...

[Michelle]

"Some of the things you wrote about the Old Testament are not true, others are partly true. If by pediphylia, you meant how the first children of Adam and Eve had to marry one another, it wasn't incest/dangerous then because the DNA threads/possibilites had not been separated and narrowed down.. Adam and Eve lived very long lives and likely birthed an outrageous amount of children! I'm sure Leviticus 18 expressly forbids pediphylia! Lots daughters produced with Lot. Their choice. Not God's. Not even Lot's. They thought Lot's line would die out."

I was mostly talking about little girls sold into slavery and forced to marry their 60 years old master or his 30 years old son. Those little girls were about between 8 and 14, kids. That's what I meant. Read my first post in that thread, you have the passages about what God says. Little girls were sold into slavery by their fathers and married to much older men. Marriage and sex with minors is just wrong. Stuff like that still happens in countries like Algeria. Little girls are sold and married to much older men by their father and they are treated like slaves by their husbands and they are victims of numerous abuses. Many of them flee their country or commit suicide to avoid such a miserable life. This has to stop... 

[Michelle]

"One Old Testament law said if a man raped a woman in the field he had to marry her. Sounds bad to us, but I bet it prevented almost all rapes! And it's not like a man and woman hung out alone like they do nowadays."

Forcing a woman into marrying her rapist is just wrong. It's not right and it never will be. Many women have flee their country or commited suicide to avoid such a miserable life. No woman in their right mind would marry their rapist and I would certainly not marry any of my abusers. It's just wrong and nothing will ever make this right. Being forced into marriage with the one who violated and hurt you can drive a woman to suicide or very self-damaging actions. Rape seriously damage people physically, mentally and emotionally. Being forced into marriage with her abuser will only finish the woman off. If physical and sexual abuse is a good enough reason to divorce a husband (I have post stuff on that) then a woman should certainly not marry her abuser. When a woman's physical, mental and psychological health is in serious danger, she has to be protected and spared from any further damage and hurt or the consequences will awful. Most women who have been severely abused many times over want to remain single. They are not interested in getting romantically involve with a man. Ask around. And I have made this very clear to God at the beginning of my walk with Him that if He really loved me and cared about me, He would never ask me to get involve with a man, much less to get married. I made it perfectly clear to Him that the day He would ask me to do that, He would lose me, that I could never obey Him in this, that I could never get close to a man and have any kind of relationship with a man other than friendship. But apparently, I was worrying for nothing. To my relief, it seems that I'm promised to a life of celibacy forever. And I can thank God that I was born with a disability and that no man take an interest in me. I have nothing against men, I'm looking forward to making male friends, but I will remain single. And also, as Paul said, since I will remain single, I can focuss on serving the Lord...   

[Michelle]

"We, humans think negative of all the things that happen to us and others we know and care about, thats our way, we cant help it, its natural........ UNTIL HE moves in our lives as He has done in yours. The first thing I understand for us as new creatures, is to FORGIVE .....FORGIVE those that have hurt us. Thats your hurtle now, as long as you carry that hate and unforgiveness He will not, He cannot begin to show you THE PATH."

I have forgiven Him and all the people who have hurt me. But I totally hate it when others are put through what I've been through. What I hate above all else is to see people suffer. It drive me crazy and I would do anything to rescue and help them. And I don't know if that's supposed to be a curse or a blessing, but to me, it often seem to be an awful curse, is everytime I know that people are suffering or I see them suffer, I feel their pain as if it was my own. One of my spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit is the gift of mercy. From what I've heard, in the eyes of many, it is the least of all gifts. Most people are so obssess with tongues and prophecy that they completely disregard mercy. They even qualify those with the gift of mercy as emo and naive. But apparently, they didn't listen to a word of what Paul had to say, because he said that tongues was the least of all gifts and nowadays, you have people who tell you that if you don't speak in tongues, you are not saved and born again. This is so ridiculous. Plus, tongues in the Bible was among the gifts that would cease. So I might be wrong, but I think those who speak in tongues are being deceived. And many people who "speak in tongues" are full of pride. Believe me, if you don't pretend that you are speaking some unknown tongue, they put you in the "unsaved" category. The fact is, I am sensitive emotionally because of my disability and everything I've been through, so feeling people's pain as if it was my own really doesn't help. I don't understand why the Lord only add to my pain. And I have "when you hurt, He hurts" rammed down my throat and since I can't control what happens to me and stop hurting at will, I just keep causing Him pain and I am mad with guilt. Even though I hurt like hell, and laugh at me or call me stupid if you want but, even though I hurt like hell, I would gladly hurt even more if I could take all of His pain upon myself because were it in my power, I would spare Him all the pain I can take upon myself and give Him all the comfort I can give. I sound stupid, don't I? That's what love do to most people...

[Michelle]

I feel bad for even saying that, because it seems some have much harder lives than others - although I believe we all have trials and tests.  I just think that's one of the ways we need to look at it, that it's helpful and puts things more in perspective, don't you?  All in all, God gives us what we need to accomplish His purpose.

:icon_flower:
althou Pharaoh is a Type of Israel\Flesh\Carnality , he was used to SHEW HIS POWER , The TRUE power of GOD is CHRIST

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth

Why doesn't the Bible say that Pharaoh, Judas and the others were saved in the "end"?

He does 1Ti 2:4  who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;

:icon_flower: :Gdance: :cloud9:

[Michelle]

"stop and know that He loves you, even with all the abuse, He has a reason that is far from anything we as human beings can come close to phanthom with our reasoning."

Do you know what really angers me above all else? For months, I have felt guilty, ashamed, dirty and disgusting, not worthy of Him, of even being in His presence and sight. I have felt that I was too impure and disgusting to allow Him close to me and as a result, I have put distance between us. And now, I learn that "he had a reason" for those abuses and that He was behind it all. And that means that I have felt disgusting and unworthy for months for nothing because those abuses were part of His plan from the start. I have forgiven Him for not interfering, but knowing that He knew all along that He was behind it and didn't say anything, I have a hard time dealing with. Why didn't He say anything? Why leaving me to feel like that for months? Why letting me put distance between us when I was all alone and needed Him so much? Was that part of His plan as well? Of course that was. What isn't? I just wish things were simpler. Why make things complicated by allowing the carnal mind to exist when he could destroy it right away so no one would ever tormented with questions, hindrances, temptations and disgusting sins that result in His insatisfaction and wrath and more suffering for us? If our carnal mind prevent us from understand the meaning behind our suffering and His perfect plan, then why not perform some kind of mega miracle and make our mind just as limitless and infinite as His so we could understand absolutely everything? Why keeping us in ignorance when understand the meaning behind our suffering would be an act of love and give us peace of mind? Why keeping people in ignorance about the meaning behind their suffering at all costs? Does He know that it adds even more to people's suffering as they are tormented with "whys" and numerous questions? Why not making us totally perfect and perfectly sinless right away so that we can never disappoint Him or hurt Him ever again with our disgusting sins and our pathetic failures? Why keeping us in a state of imperfection that He hates so much? Why allowing us to disappoint Him and hurt Him with our vile, disgusting sins and leaving us to feel horrible about it? Can't He just understand that we would give anything to totally perfect and perfectly sinless so that we would never disappoint Him and hurt Him ever again, so that we would be everything He wants us to be, so that He would always be pleased with us at all times, so that nothing would ever get in the way of our relationship with Him, so that we would truly be worthy of Him? Can't He just see how much this is killing me? Why working in me to bring me to a place where I love Him with all my mind and all my strength and all my heart and keep me in a state of imperfection that makes me undeserving and unworthy of Him? Of what use is it to experience such strong and burning love for Him if I am powerless to be perfect to Him and for Him? Of all the things I had to endure this is the worst, even worse than abuse. And why is that kind of love for Him so painful?

:crywipe::crywipe::crywipe:     

[Molly]

And now, I learn that "he had a reason" for those abuses and that He was behind it all. And that means that I have felt disgusting and unworthy for months for nothing because those abuses were part of His plan from the start. I have forgiven Him for not interfering, but knowing that He knew all along that He was behind it and didn't say anything, I have a hard time dealing with.

Why keeping us in ignorance when understand the meaning behind our suffering would be an act of love and give us peace of mind? Why keeping people in ignorance about the meaning behind their suffering at all costs?

I don't know, Michelle.  Maybe so we can have passion.  People think of passion as an intense emotion, most often associated with love, but in the case of Christ, it refers to suffering.

Passion (from the Latin verb patior, meaning to suffer or to endure, also related to compatible)

He suffered greatly, and so shall we because the servant is not greater than the Master.

Maybe it is because our passion makes us empathic.  Maybe it is because our passion gives us compassion.

He sets us apart, Michelle.  That's just the way it is.

You're struggling with your friend now, but I'm sure you understand that you cannot make him know something.  You have put things before him and he rejects them.  What else can you do?  Some day--who knows when--he will be able to see what you are placing before him now. You were brought into his life for a reason.  But, that's not up to you.

I have been betrayed by every friend I've ever had.  But, so was he.

Zechariah 13:6
And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

I am willing to bet that just about everyone on this board has gone through their own version of terrible suffering.

This in no way means to compare to what you have been through, but we can't compare suffering, can we?  All suffering is equal.

You say why, why, why.  You need to wait to find out why.  Joseph was thrown in jail for 15 years for a crime he didn't commit.  I don't believe God did that to him, but God used it mightily to raise Joseph to the top of his society.  He became the most powerful man in Egypt, second only to Pharoah.  They meant it for evil but God meant it for good to save many souls alive.

We will rule and reign with him some day, Michelle.  Do I want someone reigning with him who understands suffering, who has compassion,  and who loves mercy?  YES.

The rest of that passage about the children--

Matthew 18:10
Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

[Michelle]

"I don't know, Michelle.  Maybe so we can have passion.  People think of passion as an intense emotion, most often associated with love, but in the case of Christ, it refers to suffering.

Passion (from the Latin verb patior, meaning to suffer or to endure, also related to compatible)

He suffered greatly, and so shall we because the servant is not greater than the Master.

Maybe it is because our passion makes us empathic.  Maybe it is because our passion gives us compassion.

He sets us apart, Michelle.  That's just the way it is."

Suffering is not the issue, it's not even an issue. I can take so much more than that. But I just wish He would destroy and burn up and all those disgusting imperfections because I love Him so much that it's driving me crazy. If I was perfect and sinless, He would be pleased with me at all times and nothing could ever get in the way of our relationship again and I could never disappoint Him or hurt Him ever again. Why a perfect God loves people that are not perfect and sinless is beyond my understanding. Why He keeps us in a state of imperfection that He hates so much is beyond my understanding. And above all else, what is totally beyond my understanding is why He put such a curse on me, driving me crazy with love for Him and leaving all those disgusting imperfections to exist in me so that I end up being tormented and hating myself. If I could destroy and burn up all my disgusting imperfections I would do it myself and I wouldn't let anything get in the way of my relationship with Him. I would tear all the obstacles apart, fight the worst kind of demon and make my way through a angry mob if I had to. So that nothing could ever get in the way of my relationship with Him ever again, so that there would never be any distance between us ever again...

Jesus actually turned me into an emo, hypersensitive love slave. I don't know if I should laugh or cry...

"You're struggling with your friend now, but I'm sure you understand that you cannot make him know something.  You have put things before him and he rejects them.  What else can you do?  Some day--who knows when--he will be able to see what you are placing before him now. You were brought into his life for a reason.  But, that's not up to you."

I know, okay? I know. Jesus told me to let it go and not duscuss the subject with my friend. But it seems that my friend just doesn't have any subject of conversation other than religion. And everytime we discuss, he gives me hateful speeches on Christian Universalism and "freaking ugly heretics". I know it's not up to me. But it's killing me. If Jesus knows that I love my friend and care so much about him, why He is not doing anything to wake him to the truth? Why is He not doing anything? Does He really bring a sword and seperate people who love each others? I'm losing my friends, my mother, my sister, everyone I love and care about. How can He do this to me? To them? And if He seperates people from those they love in this life, what guarantee do I have that He won't seperate them in the next? And everytime that happens, I hurt like and cry out to him: "Not that one! Don't take that one person from me!" But He does. Is He really THAT much of a jealous God that He just won't allow us to get close to anyone? Can He not understand that humans need each others? You can't even have an actual conversation with Him! You will never have any kind of audible, normal, human conversation with Him because it just seem too human and too pathetic for God Almighty's tastes to have an actual, normal conversation with one of His children. He just doesn't care about chit-chating about insignificant stuff. Too busy being God Almighty working on His perfect plan to pretend to be a human; to talk to us in an audible voice, to have a nice, normal and human conversation with me or any of us and pretend to care about human stuff like art, history and sociology. Well, that's not exactly true, now is it? A few lucky people like Glenda Green, author of: "love without end, Jesus speaks" get to see Him right in front of them and have direct, audible, human conversations with Him, sometimes lasting for months. What did she have that was so special that He gave her such a privilege? He chose her to paint His portrait and to write some of His teachings. What did she have that was so special? She's not a Jew and she certainly isn't a "saint". It's so unfair. I lose everyone I love and care about and it's like he wants me all secluded, with no one to talk and no human voice to hear. I don't know how long I can take anymore of this. It's been months now. And talking with people on forums or Yahoo just isn't the same. He should know that humans need each other and that all humans need human company and face-to-face conversations. If He doesn't like the kind of friends I have or had, then why doesn't He just choose them? But in the town where I live, there are very few Christians and probably no Christian Universalists. Most people in my town are idolatrous Catholics. But it's not like He can't do miracles and choose some friends for me...

"This in no way means to compare to what you have been through, but we can't compare suffering, can we?  All suffering is equal."

Yeah...

"You say why, why, why.  You need to wait to find out why.  Joseph was thrown in jail for 15 years for a crime he didn't commit.  I don't believe God did that to him, but God used it mightily to raise Joseph to the top of his society.  He became the most powerful man in Egypt, second only to Pharoah.  They meant it for evil but God meant it for good to save many souls alive."

God did that to Him...

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TheProblemofEvil.html

"Many believers are blinded concerning the truth, even as Joseph's brethren were blinded. There are those who say that God did not have, and is not having, anything to do with Satan and his works. When we refer them to Joseph and ask, "Why did Joseph's brethren sell him?" they answer, "Because they hated him." This, of course, is true, but when we point out to them that in later years Joseph said to his brethren, "Therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life" (Gen.45:5), they become confused, for they do not like to believe that God actually did evil to Joseph. They want to place all the blame on his brethren. Of course, God cannot be censured, but the truth is that Joseph's brethren did exactly what God intended them to do. There is no doubt that it was the Adversary who suggested their actions to them, but the Adversary belongs to God in the sense that God created him and can use him as He wills.

So, God used Satan, and Joseph's brethren, to preserve life. This seems strange, for the Adversary is a murderer, but God can, and does, use him for the opposite purpose whenever He pleases to do so.

That the Adversary is subordinate to God is proved by his obedience to the command of the Lord Jesus. When Jesus said to him, "Go away, Satan," he went without delay. He left Christ~ (Matt.4:11)."

"We will rule and reign with him some day, Michelle.  Do I want someone reigning with him who understands suffering, who has compassion,  and who loves mercy?  YES."

Not all will rule with Him. All will be saved, but not all will have the same rewards and the same amount of rewards. It will depend on the tested works. Those that pass the test will bring rewards, those that don't pass the test will be burned and bring losses. The rewards among other things are crowns and positions in the Kingdom. God can "force" (make people willing) to be saved in the "end", but I doubt He will force people into doing things in His kingdom (be it in new earth or new heaven) that they don't want to do, against their will. Some people prefer to follow and serve rather than rule or lead. I seriously doubt that people will be forced to take a position that they do not want. Me, I'd rather serve and follow than having tons of responsibilities and having hundreds of people to deal with. The last thing I want is authority and power, and if God really loves me, He won't force me into it...

Also, read Revelation 4:9-11. Truly humble people will throw their crowns at Jesus' feet and tell Him that He alone is worthy of ruling and reigning. That's exactly what I will do...

[Molly]

But I just wish He would destroy and burn up and all those disgusting imperfections because I love Him so much that it's driving me crazy.

He is. 

Jesus, too, had to go through this.

Hebrews 2:10
For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

"sufferings"--the root word is pathos, which is the same word in our language.

We learn em-path-y by undergoing suffering [pathos].

Is this what makes us 'perfect'?

Those people that hurt you--what do you have that they don't?  Empathy, for one thing.

Our perfection is a function of our relationship with Him.   The word 'perfect' means 'completion' in the Greek.  Our relationship with him makes us complete [perfect] by definition--no matter where we are on our walk.

Therefore, in joining with him, we have to go through a form of what he went through.

If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.

--John 15:18

If Jesus knows that I love my friend and care so much about him, why He is not doing anything to wake him to the truth? Why is He not doing anything? Does He really bring a sword and seperate people who love each others? I'm losing my friends, my mother, my sister, everyone I love and care about. How can He do this to me? To them? And if He seperates people from those they love in this life, what guarantee do I have that He won't seperate them in the next? And everytime that happens, I hurt like and cry out to him: "Not that one! Don't take that one person from me!" But He does. Is He really THAT much of a jealous God that He just won't allow us to get close to anyone?

Believe me, I hear you.  You sound just like me.

Like I said, he sets us apart.  And, apparently some more so than others.

Genesis 12:1
Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go forth from your country, And from your relatives And from your father's house, To the land which I will show you;

Abraham was required to give up everything known to him and follow God.

That hurts--a lot.   And, takes a lot of courage.  Abraham couldn't have done that unless he believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness.

I don't think anyone would willingly chose this path, but in my case it was foisted on me.  I am surrounded by atheists.  I can't change them.  And, I have to endure a lot of abuse from them that I also can't change.  I have prayed to God to give me members of his family, and he gave me a dog haha.
Mind you, he is the most perfect, loving dog on the face of the earth and my wish is his command.  Ah, this is what a servant looks like--he's obeying me out of love.

The last thing I want is authority and power, and if God really loves me, He won't force me into it...

I get that.  I'm the same way.  But, what if you had the authority and power to stop a child from being abused?  You might take that on willingly...


I'm sorry you have to go through this, Michelle.  I wish I could make it better for you.  But, whether you know it or not, he is in the fire with you.


24Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonished, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
25He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

--Dan 3

[Michelle]

Gary, can you please explain it to him? It's not like I haven't tried. And honestly, I think you're more qualified than I am to explain it to him. I'm praying for him...

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/prayer_room/prayer_those_who_believe_universal_salvation_391.0.html

[Michelle]

"I don't think anyone would willingly chose this path, but in my case it was foisted on me.  I am surrounded by atheists.  I can't change them.  And, I have to endure a lot of abuse from them that I also can't change.  I have prayed to God to give me members of his family, and he gave me a dog haha. Mind you, he is the most perfect, loving dog on the face of the earth and my wish is his command.  Ah, this is what a servant looks like--he's obeying me out of love."

Well, at least, I have a cat. A Blue Russian. And speaking of pets, there is another mistranslation in the Bible. The Roman Catholic Church has been lying to us for centuries! Animals are living souls just like humans and they go to heaven!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WV-wYvM5VM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cpeugbgre_E

"And God said, Let the waters swarm with the swarmers having a SOUL OF LIFE; and let the birds fly over the earth, on the face of the expanse of the heavens. And God created the great sea animals, and all that creeps, having a LIVING SOUL, which swarmed the waters, according to its kind; and every bird with wing according to its kind. And God saw that it was good (Hebrew/Greek interliner Genesis 1:20-21)

'And He has filled him with the spirit( 7307 - Ruwach) of God...' ( Exodus 35:31)

7307 רוּחַ (Ruwach) - 5(a) In these verses the animals have a "spirit" (cf Ps 104:29) - The New Strong's Concordance of the Bible

This is the sea, great and wide on both hands; there are creeping things even without number; living things, small and great. There the ships go; You made the great sea animal to play in it. all of them wait for You to give them their food in due season. You give to them; they gather you open your hand, and they are filled with good. You hide Your face, and they are troubled; you gather Your breath, and they expire and they return to dust. You send out YOUR SPIRIT, and they are created; and you renew the face of the earth. (Hebrew/Greek Interliner Psalm 104:25-30)

The wolf and the lamb shall feed as one; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And dust is the food of the snake. They shall not do evil nor destroy in all My holy mountain, says Jehovah. (Hebrew/Greek Interliner Bible Isaiah 65:25)"

Someone must tell that to Gary! Maybe he can write something about that! Animals are living souls and they go to heaven! People will even be reunited will all the pets they have had in this life! I can't wait to be reunited with my precious cats! I love pets and animals! Especially cats! I'm a cat-lover! Freaking cats all around in heaven! Wooooo hoooooo!!!! :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqA3jjIrZ9Q&feature=related

"The Hebrew words and examples of animals who "spoke" with mankind in the Bible.''

:icon_flower: :icon_flower: Woah! Just like in "The Chronicles of Narnia"! I knew it and I bet C.S. Lewis did too! Animals have the ability to speak human language in heaven!

A comment posted on Youtube: "Dogs do go to heaven my friend had a car accident and her heart stopped during surgery. She saw Mickey her collie in a field of flowers she hugged him but a figure in white said she had to return. They had resuscitated her, she is now a christian and convinced theres an afterlife. snoopyredhat."

Here, you have three different videos. There might be more if you look for them...

:icon_flower: :icon_flower: A woman getting out of rehab once said: "God don't make no trash!" Hey, that should be the Christian Universalists' motto! Along with "God is Love"! And imagine that! Everytime we would come across some Fire and Brimstone preaching Christian, we would say: "God don't make no trash. Are you a trash?" That would shut them up for good! :rolllol: :LH:

Now, this is so ridiculous. I wonder what the NWO will come up with next:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eydqsx_BcuY

When are they gonna put through their thick skulls that they can't win? That's Jesus Christ they are coming up against and they're gonna lose big time and none of their Blue Beam or HAARP trick is gonna work against the King...

[marie glen]

"Ever since then, all have suffered, some horribly. But God, being life, lives through, suffers and experiences aLL sufferings which ever occur."

I hate when people tell me that and it's the last thing I want to hear. "When you hurt, He hurts". The last thing I need is guilt. I caused Him way too much pain already with the crucificion. It's even worse that I have no control over the things that happens to me so I can't stop hurting at will and free Him from that pain. Please, people, avoid this subject entirely, as I don't think I could cope with it right now and to be honest, not ever... 

If God interfered with 'free-will' (the ability to choose) it wouldn't be 'free will'! And it wouldn't work! The 'end' result would not be the same."

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/FreeMoralAgent-Eby.html

My first memory is of my mother holding my head under water. In the background I heard my father say, "that's enough hon". It was not God doing it. But her being a robot? What sort of reality. I appreciate your compassion when reading my story and that you didn't simply skim and dismiss what I had to say.

"Reckon yourself as crucified with Christ"  we need to die to self. To say everyone suffers because humans have thinking and reasoning power has nothing to do with my suffering causing God suffering; or your suffering causing God suffering. It's not all about me. That's the biggest lesson we have to learn. God could have made it so no suffering or choice ever occur. But would we really prefer to be robots? Thinking ability. Reason. Logic. We always need to think and consider where something, some idea, way of doing something, leads. What is the result and fruit of it.

If you were God what would you do? It's easy to say make a perfect world. But an ant farm/robots or perpetual infancy is not perfection. If you read everything with the deeply entrenched neuron pathways of thinking that brings you depression, as a screen, you won't ever break free. I've been there. That's why I wrote all I did. I didn't say "God suffers with you" I said God lives through and experiences it all with the thought of inspiring thought above our self.

With the choice of endowing thinking ability or not, if you were He, what would you do/choose. You are God. You can see how every choice you make will end. Would YOU choose to endow thinking ability? or not ever endow thinking ability? Where does each one lead? Which choice is truly the more beneficial in your opinion, if you stop and think about it from God's and an eternal, all encompassing point of view. How about the suffering of creating beautiful life and all the human race does is accuse and blame you, insist on enjoying the good things of life, family, marriage, nature, etc, all the gifts, but merely accuse and blame the giver and source, rather than be thankful. And count the curses rather than the blessings, and disregarding the miracle of being alive to begin with.

"Jesus is the perfect representation of His character." If God spoke war in the Old Testament it was against folks deeply into human sacrifice and torture as religion. I say God did us a favor. [And then He'll resurrect them and ultimately save them.] I do agree some human elements may have been added to the laws given to tiny Israel in preparation to bring a rescue to planet earth, a rescue from our choices, not God's.

"Jesus is the perfect representation of His character." - "God is love" all love, any love we feel for anyone, that is God. The mean one who likes to stand in front of God claiming to be God, that's not God.

[Michelle]

"Ever since then, all have suffered, some horribly. But God, being life, lives through, suffers and experiences aLL sufferings which ever occur."

I hate when people tell me that and it's the last thing I want to hear. "When you hurt, He hurts". The last thing I need is guilt. I caused Him way too much pain already with the crucificion. It's even worse that I have no control over the things that happens to me so I can't stop hurting at will and free Him from that pain. Please, people, avoid this subject entirely, as I don't think I could cope with it right now and to be honest, not ever... 

If God interfered with 'free-will' (the ability to choose) it wouldn't be 'free will'! And it wouldn't work! The 'end' result would not be the same."

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/FreeMoralAgent-Eby.html

My first memory is of my mother holding my head under water. In the background I heard my father say, "that's enough hon". It was not God doing it. But her being a robot? What sort of reality. I appreciate your compassion when reading my story and that you didn't simply skim and dismiss what I had to say.

"Reckon yourself as crucified with Christ"  we need to die to self. To say everyone suffers because humans have thinking and reasoning power has nothing to do with my suffering causing God suffering; or your suffering causing God suffering. It's not all about me. That's the biggest lesson we have to learn. God could have made it so no suffering or choice ever occur. But would we really prefer to be robots? Thinking ability. Reason. Logic. We always need to think and consider where something, some idea, way of doing something, leads. What is the result and fruit of it.

If you were God what would you do? It's easy to say make a perfect world. But an ant farm/robots or perpetual infancy is not perfection. If you read everything with the deeply entrenched neuron pathways of thinking that brings you depression, as a screen, you won't ever break free. I've been there. That's why I wrote all I did. I didn't say "God suffers with you" I said God lives through and experiences it all with the thought of inspiring thought above our self.

With the choice of endowing thinking ability or not, if you were He, what would you do/choose. You are God. You can see how every choice you make will end. Would YOU choose to endow thinking ability? or not ever endow thinking ability? Where does each one lead? Which choice is truly the more beneficial in your opinion, if you stop and think about it from God's and an eternal, all encompassing point of view. How about the suffering of creating beautiful life and all the human race does is accuse and blame you, insist on enjoying the good things of life, family, marriage, nature, etc, all the gifts, but merely accuse and blame the giver and source, rather than be thankful. And count the curses rather than the blessings, and disregarding the miracle of being alive to begin with.

"Jesus is the perfect representation of His character." If God spoke war in the Old Testament it was against folks deeply into human sacrifice and torture as religion. I say God did us a favor. [And then He'll resurrect them and ultimately save them.] I do agree some human elements may have been added to the laws given to tiny Israel in preparation to bring a rescue to planet earth, a rescue from our choices, not God's.

"Jesus is the perfect representation of His character." - "God is love" all love, any love we feel for anyone, that is God. The mean one who likes to stand in front of God claiming to be God, that's not God.

What I meant is, Everytime I was beaten up, abused and raped, I couldn't stop those boys and stop myself from hurting so it was all my fault God was hurting with me because I was hurting and it was all my fault God was hurting because I couldn't shut myself out of pain or stop those boys so it was my fault I couldn't stop hurting and stop the pain and it was my fault God was hurting because I was hurting. But it was also totally and completely his fault because he was all behind the beatings, abuses and rapes and it was all part of his perfect plan because he's in control of everything and made everything part of his plan for us even before the beginning of the world, so it was all his fault I was beaten up and abused and raped and all his fault I was made to be polluted, disgusting, violated and impure, undeserving of being in his presence and sight, and it was also all his faul that I lived with all that guilt because I couldn't stop the boys and stop hurting at will and stop my pain and stop being responsible for his being hurting because I was hurting and he made it all my fault that he was hurting because I was hurting. He caused His own pain by making all of this part of his perfect plan but left me to live with the guilt that everytime I couldn't stop those boys and stop myself from hurting it was my fault He was hurting because I was hurting. You said that when your mother tried to drown you, it wasn't God doing it? Oh, no, it wasn't God DOING it, but God planned and programmed all of this before the beginning of the world, everything is all part of his perfect plan. He wasn't DOING it, He had already DONE it. He didn't protect you or changed His plan. No more than He protected me and changed His plan. He just watched as those boys raped me and didn't do anything about it, just like that teacher did in school once. That teacher didn't do anything either. There was no one to help me or take me seriously. Even before she was born, your mother had been programmed to try and drown you at that specific moment of her life. Everything is part of his perfect plan. No one can stop God's plan.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TheProblemofEvil.html

He created the murderers, the hypocrites and the rapists too. He uses Satan to demonically oppress people and put them under demonic oppression. He did that too me for months. That's in additions to all the beatings, abuses and rapes. All my life I've been a victim of God's perfect plan. The Bible itself says that God creates evil and all evil is under his control. When something evil happens, he makes it happen. When a kid somewhere on the planet is being beaten and raped, God planned it. Many on this board know what I'm talking about.

"stop and know that He loves you, even with all the abuse, He had a reason that is far from anything we as human beings can come close to phanthom with our reasoning."

Is that supposed to make it all right? He is behind EVERYTHING evil that happens to everyone. Countless people on the planet are having their physical bodies, their souls and their spirits being raped by evil humans and evil spirits and God is behind it all. He's the reason people feel impure, dirty and disgusting. He's the reason people feel unworthy and undeserving to stand in His presence and sight. Satan is nothing more than a tool and as the author of that article say, some people give Satan way too much credit. He ends his article by saying that the real heresy is to say that it is Satan who creates and cause evil. Satan is nothing more than a tool of God. If you're being harassed and oppresed by demonic spirits, God is behind it. If you're beaten up and raped, God is behind it. If you lose everyone you love and care about, God is behind it. All the evil that happens to us is His fault. He made me a violated, impure, filthy and gross thing. Because of Him, I've been under demonic oppression for years, because of Him, my family and I have been hounded and attacked by Satan, because of Him, I have lost everyone I loved and cared about, not to mention that He let me believe the lie of E.T doctrine for years. He let those people endoctrinate and brainwash me. I lived a nightmare because of Him. I was a gentle, innocent and fragile kid and He made me a victim. He is the reason I feel pollute, filthy and disgusting everyday of my life and he is the reason I feel undeserving of being in his presence and sight. After the nightmare of beatings and rape, I've been through the nightmare of E.T doctrine. I've been told that my family and my friends would be eternally tortured and that it didn't matter if I begged God to take me in their place, they would get what they deserved no matter what. I've had horrific nightmares and even traumas. To this day, I still suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder, just like military soldiers. I'm doing my own thing when suddenly I see flames dancing before my eyes and I hear people screaming in agony in my head. I see the image of a child engulfed in flames reaching for someone and crying, calling his mama. I never told my mother because she wouldn't understand. She would freak out and drive me to the first psychiatric hospital, thinking I'm schizophrene or psychotic. I know I'm not crazy and I didn't ask for any of this. For all those years, God let me believe a lie. A lie that has destroyed my life. For many months, I have lived with fear, anxiety, depression, sorrow, loss of appetite and insomnia. God never told me anything. He hid very important truths from me. He didn't explain anything to me, much less told me anything. And to this day, my physical, psychological and spiritual health is seriously affected. And all the whys and questions still remain unanswered. God doesn't seem to care at all about my right to know the reason behind everything I've been through, the reason behind why I was made a powerless and easy victim. I have gone to God and asked Him to deprogram me from the years of crap loaded into me by the church and fundies and how I can deal with the anxiety, anger, self-lloathing and doubt that cripples me. I never got an answer. So apparently, He just doesn't care. Some say that if he doesn't interfere when someone is being harm, abused and lied to, that's either because He doesn't want to (not loving and caring enough) or because He cannot (not powerful and in control enough). Sometimes, one cannot help but wonder if God is not loving and willing or powerful and almighty enough to preserve his children. No one should ever have to suffer and be a victikm of the evil HE creates and do. Read the article above. Another thing people have to deal with; love can apparently create and do evil. My life is a mess, I am a mess, my relationship with God is a mess. Everything is nothing but a huge mess. And I'm only a weak, powerless human who cannot find a solution, much less correctly apply one. I'm so sick and so tired of all those spiritual crises that just seem to last forever, so sick of the darkness that seems to permeate my life.

"If God spoke war in the old testament it was against folks deeply into human sacrifice and torture as religion."

Except it was mainly pregnant women and innocent kids and babies that he told people to kill. Innocent little ones and women who had life growing inside them. You don't take it out on innocents.

"I say God did us a favor."

You're starting to talk like my Fundy friend. He said God was only getting rid of the bad seed, eliminating the vermin. Human life is human life. If I was God I wouldn't get people murdered, especially not innocent little ones and that's from an imperfect, sinful human. What does that tell you? Are humans better than God since they show more compassion than God? Some people became atheists because they are angry and shocked because of all the evil things God did. All the hurt, pain, harm, murder and abuse he brought down on people. And even those who was deeply into human sacrifice and torture didn't deserve to be ripped apart. I was ministering to a guy over the Internet once. He told me that He didn't want to hear about God. He told me that He was an ex Christian Universalist and He told me: "Even if God doesn't plan to torture everyone eternally in some hell, He still did horrific and evil things. If some folks were into human sacrifice, torture and stuff like that, why didn't he come down to earth and showed them were they wrong and teach them instead of having them raped, hurt and murdered? No, he waited for centuries, maybe even millenium before He sent His Son." Isn't He right? And why destroy innocent children and babies for the crimes of guilty adults? Why punishing people for the crimes of their fathers or ancestors when they were not responsible for the crimes of others? It's like punishing and destroying a little child because his mother is a whore. It's unnaceptable. As far as I'm concerned, I call a spade a spade and evil is evil. If I can see that, why can't God? Isn't He supposed to be smarter and better than humans? I don't hate God, but I am very angry at him and I will never understand why he cannot see that evil is evil. He's supposed to be more intelligent and better than humans, but many imperfect, sinful humans wouldn't do half of the things he did and in such a horrific way because they have too much compassion and respect for human life. That led many people to atheism. They didn't want to become like the OT God and his followers. 

I'm going through a spiritual crisis, I don't understand certain things and I'm a mess, but I want to tell you, guys, that I'm very grateful to you for attempting to help me. I know you're doing everything you can and I appreaciate it. Please, don't reply to this post and pray for me...

[Molly]

Praying for you, Michelle.


17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

18Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

--James 1

[Michelle]

:sigh: Apparently, I'm not the only one going through a crisis...

http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=print_topic;f=11;t=000243

Except no matter how infuriate I am, I would never go as far as to say: "You'd better get down here NOW, you miserable squirming GIT of a being-creator-of-the-universe."

See post number 420 among other things...

Here's are a few good ones that pretty much express how I feel:

"Why do we have to learn through pain? Why can't we learn through happiness? Why bother creating an imperfect species that spends its time apologizing for falling flat on its face when it can't help it? Why bother creating an imperfect species at all? What kind of a being is God?"

*Bitter laugh* We were born with a sin nature, we didn't ask for it and didn't have anything to say about, we didn't choose our nature and condition, we didn't even ask to be born, but we were guilty and condemned from birth, for something a couple did 6000 years ago and just because we were (in some cases, are) guilty of being their great-great-great-great-great grand-children or something, born with a sin nature we didn't even ask for and brought in this world, life and body against our will. And that's what people are being punished for. For being born into this world, for being imperfect and screwing up, for falling flat on their face, for having a carnal mind they didn't even ask for. People are more victims than they are sinners. Victims of God who planned the fall of mankind millenium ago (see the article: "The problem of evil" posted on the TM website.) Why punishing people for their sins if He willed the fall of mankind and forced the souls He created into this world, this life and this body, forced them into being born into this world with a sin nature and a flesh body that starts aging, deteriorating, rotting and decaying as soon as it is born? Why punishing people for their sins and holding them responsible for their sins if it was in His plan that mankind fall and people be born with a sin nature so that He can send His Son to save a portion of them in this life and all this to bring glory to His name, seemingly not caring about all the suffering He causes? We are all being manipulated and sometimes being controlled, we are nothing but pawns on a chessboard, toys and victims of His perfect plan as He will us to do as He wish on a whim, but we are responsible for having a sin nature and screwing up? What did He expect? Imperfect beings will always screw up. If He doesn't want us to sin then He shouldn't have willed the fall of mankind with all its consequences. If He doesn't want people to sin, then He should make them perfect right away instead of working in them ever so slowly and over a period of a hundred of years and punishing them for being imperfect and screwing up. How could people be responsible for their sins if they didn't even ask to be born into this world and with a sin nature they didn't ask for? And tell you what, unsaved people have it easy. They only have the carnal mind, not the Holy Spirit. Their flesh and spirit are never fighting it out, never at war with each other, they are never pulled in two different directions, they do not suffer the horrible and horrific agony of temptation because they can do nothing but obey their sin nature, so they never suffer from those horribly painful struggles. They are lucky indeed. Being unsaved seem a blessing compared to that. Apparently, being saved is worse than being unsaved. If you serve and follow Jesus, you have to suffer, hurt like hell, agonize all the time and your life is 1% happiness and 99% suffering. If you're unsaved, you're at peace with yourself and you never suffer from those inner struggles. If you are saved and you are Christian, if you serve and follow Jesus, you have to live an extremely unhealthy life of constant and ceaseless suffering, schizophrenic inner struggles against yourself and temptation and die to self all the time which means that taking care of yourself, caring about yourself and listening to yourself is a gross, wicked and disgusting crime. We have to bring our already unhealty life to a even more unhealthy level ; always loving others, caring about others, taking care of others, taking care of others' needs but never not in a zillion years think about our own needs and caring about ourselves or taking care of ourselves for only one second. And apparently, according to countless a life of following abd serving Jesus is a life of denying oneself. That means a life of living an extremely unhealthy life. We don't exist, we exist only to serve others and take care of their needs all the time. And some people wonder why so many individuals suffer from mental illnesses and end up in psychiatric hospitals. Because they neglect themselves way too much and exhaust themselves to death always taking care of other people's needs, taking care of others, serving others, denying themselves to the most unhealthy level. And that's what I did my whole life. Always taking care of other people's needs, always taking care of others, always caring about others. Denying myself and neglecting myself completely until it destroyed my life. Maybe that's why I have so many psychological health problems. And what did I get? I was abused, walked all over, humiliated, despised and rejected by the very people I so unhealthily neglected myself for and worked myself to death for. And no one ever took care of me, of MY needs, of MY health. When people needed me I was there for them, but when I need someone I don't have anyone. And apparently, God just doesn't care because He doesn't allow anyone close to me. He allowed so many evil horrors and atrocities, willed most of them. Like Romans and Greeks throwing men into arenas just to watch those men kill each others or being eaten alive by starved lions. In the Bible, He at least prevented SOME of the atrocities and sometimes intervene. Today, He doesn't intervene or interfere at all when atrocities are being committed...

Here's another good one that express how I feel:       

"Why do You seem to want to crush whatever I undertake, even when my motive was to live the gospel, not to mention serve Your Church?! Perhaps I could deal with some of my misfortune better was it caused by my committing some terrible sin - but most of it stemmed from genuinely trying to 'do for these least of my brethren.'

Oh, I know I'm supposed to meditate on your Passion - but that no longer works. (When you were my age, you were long dead!) I know your sufferings were horrible, but they lasted about 3 days! How would you have liked to have a much longer life, failing at everything you undertook for the Church, acting with love and being misinterpreted and treated with cruelty, shivering with fear at what else is going wrong or shall soon?

I remember well, from childhood, when the buzz words were 'offer it up.' Well, I'm damned sick of 'offering it up.' I'm all alone, aching, knowing I believe every word of your revelation and wondering why. It's all a game - a "Pollyanna" game of pretending nothing matters. I beg you to help me, just for some relief, some support, but I'm just supposed to pretend "your grace is enough for me."

I have known people who are cruel, self-absorbed, avaricious, sometimes even wicked (and You know what I mean... I'm not talking about the common weakness of humanity), yet there have been places in the Church where they were valued. All I have from You is rejection! Way out there, there is some dim, imperceptible business called "God's will." We cannot know what it is... all we know that it usually involves rejection. I'm damned sick of a life filled with "it wasn't God's will."

(The rest I shall not post, since it is too personal... but I don't know why I'm even praying to You. Perhaps I'm trying to placate You, fearful you'll harm me all the more. Or are you punishing me because, even what I wanted was simple and good - a chance to use talents for your Church - you are angry that I wanted more than I have? Or are you making a worm of me because you love giving us suffering and humiliation so much?)"

And here's another one:

"I remember a rant in about 1985 in an Anglican church in British Columbia - the church empty except for me, the ranter - everything turning to sh*t around me. The problem and the substance of the rant:

All those precedents in the Bible and Church history where God came to rescue His people and why, oh why, did that situation not prevail right now. (Isn't that respect of persons?)

All those promises of fellowship, strength, clarity of vision, etc - 'lo I am with you' (yeah, right!) which I was supposed to interpret and promote amongst God's people from the pulpit and they appeared not to be true.

The fact that if God were a parent someone would be quite justified in calling in the social workers to intervene. If he were a manager, the board of directors would be quite justified in firing him.

At least that's how I felt at the time.

I'm of the opinion that you have to mention the distance which exists between what has been promised and what is actually the case. I would go as far as to say that silence in the face of real or perceived non-fulfillment of his promises is non-faith and that one bitc*es precisely because one believes.

Do we remain stuck in the rant forever? Probably not, but that's not the point."

And another one:

"And what in Hell were you talking about, with that 'consider the lilies of the field' business? Your children die in the street every day!

Looking over every part of the scriptures, it seems that all you want your people to do is look for the puzzle! Old Testament patriarchs wondering what would come of the covenant - later OT figures waiting for the Messiah - New Testament ones trying not to mind that the world had not changed with your resurrection, but believing that your full glory (and a little peace for this horrible world!) was at hand - and, then, the final "let's try to make sense of this" in believing that everything was only half fulfilled - it would all work out at the Last Judgement.

Truth does not win! Some people die in prison for crimes they did not commit. Good people have their reputations ruined, and those who calumniated them are believed - even when one would think there was sufficient proof of the goodness for no one to believe the calumny.

What is it with You? Do you enjoy seeing your children begging You for help, then tossing them aside with being indifferent? Do you honestly think that this miserable world is any less so because of some remote promise of eternal bliss after we die?"

Those people feel exactly the way I do. Yes, Jesus. Michelle is not perfect, Michelle doesn't take everything well and Michelle is angry. But I'm not stupid. You say: "Take it out on Me, take it all out on Me. I can take it like no one else, just get it out of your system." But who will be left to deal with even more guilt and shame? Nice try. On my way for another Bible study, for what it's worth. And if I'm being PMSing on Jesus, this is just the worst of all humiliation ever. Spiritual crisis + PMS = being in hell. I think I'm going to get some fresh air, then I'll feel better. That spiritual crisis has to end sooner or later. It can't last forever. Please, pray for me people. I love you all, beloved brothers and sisters. Even Thinktank and Micah, even though I've been a little harsh to them. Forgive me...   
 

[Michelle]

Praying for you, Michelle.


17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

18Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

--James 1

Thank you, Molly. As that guy said: "See it's not like one is able to give up belief. You can't help yourself believing. God is just there. And it's not like you don't believe all the stuff you're supposed to believe about him, about him being love and merciful and so on, and the Incarnation etc. It's that none of that makes an impact in the relationship between the soul and God - and therein lies the grief and sorrow. And the bitterness of being human." And: "I've been sitting here telling God, "see? see? It's NOT just me!" JL, we're people in pain, crying out to God. We're not being self-indulgent. We've tried to hold onto faith during very tough times, and have hit a point where the packaged answers aren't good enough--not for us, not for the rest of Creation."

And I'll just keep on loving Him. Because it's all I can do and it's all I have...

[CHB]

Hi Michelle,

After knowing that God is in control of the universe and everything that happens in our lives, how does that make you feel toward God? Are you mad at God? Doesn't it say to forgive those who tresspass against us? Couldn't that apply to God also? Maybe God is teaching you forgivness. How can we learn forgiveness if no one ever does anything for us to forgive them of?

I think we all will have to forgive God for everything bad that happens in our lives because God could intervene any time he choses to, sometimes he doesn't because we learn something from every single thing that happens to us, be it good or bad.

http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d031002.htm

CHB