Slain from the foundation of the world

[Molly]

So does anyone agree that the world spoken of in this thread means the fallen system? rather than world as in "Earth"?

Then the Scripture would be read:

The Lamb that was Slain from the fallen system.

It does say that.

the lamb slain from katabolē kosmos

[Molly]

There is another Greek word that is translated into the same English word, 'foundation.' as we see in this verse:

Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure..
-2 Tim 2:19

"foundation"

G2310
θεμέλιος
themelios
them-el'-ee-os
From a derivative of G5087; something put down, that is, a substruction (of a building, etc.), (literally or figuratively): - foundation.


Themelios has a different meaning from  kataballō
but they translate it into the same English word, 'foundation,' thereby obscuring the meaning.

[Beloved Servant]

Then we can understand it as "because of."

The Lamb was slain because of the fallen system as if Adam took God by surprise.

[jabcat]

I'm really pondering a couple of things about this topic.  I found the following which was interesting, especially the "such as planting seeds in the ground" comment.

Before the foundation of the world - In eternity past God planned to send His Son to redeem the world.
Before (4253) (pro) in a spatial sense means in front of or as used in this verse in a temporal sense to refer to a time prior to the time the world was created.

Foundation (2602) (katabole from kata = down + ballo = throw, cast) literally refers to that which has been thrown or cast down and thus to that which forms the foundation. The original idea was the laying down of the foundation of a house.
Katabole - 11x in NT - Matt. 13:35; 25:34; Lk. 11:50; Jn. 17:24; Eph. 1:4; Heb. 4:3; 9:26; 11:11; 1 Pet. 1:20; Rev. 13:8; 17:8

Katabole was a technical term for putting seed into the ground, it is also used of the role of the male in impregnating the female and there is one such use in Hebrews 11:11, referring to the casting in or sowing of seed, conveying the idea of begetting.

TDNT adds that katabole meant...
laying down," is used for, e.g., the casting of seed, human begetting, the sowing of war, and the establishment of government.

World (2889) (kosmos) means the world with its primary meaning being order, regular disposition and arrangement, here referring in essence to God's creation of the heavens and earth that we know today.

Christ's sacrifice for the sins of the world was not an afterthought, not something God decided to do when the world spun out of control because sin had entered it. Before God ever created the foundation of the world, in the mind of God, Christ had been sacrificed, and the names of the redeemed were known. Paul writes that the Father...
chose (elected) us in Him (in Christ) before the foundation (katabole) of the world (kosmos), (Why did God do it? What was His purpose?) that we should be holy and blameless before Him. (See...Ephesians 1:4)


http://www.preceptaustin.org/1_peter_120-21.htm

[Molly]

the Father.. chose (elected) us in Him (in Christ) before the foundation (katabole) of the world (kosmos), (Why did God do it? What was His purpose?) that we should be holy and blameless before Him.

Now this is the crux of the issue I think.  God allows the world to be cast down by Satan, but at the same time makes sure there are those who will be a light to the world.  This is the idea of salt.  Also, the idea of seed sown into a fallen world--it is sown in dishonor, Paul tells us, but raised in glory.

If Adam is one of these--the lambkin slain from the casting down of the orderly system of God--then the book of life is his DNA.  I would think you guys would like this thought because it means that all men will be saved.

Nevertheless, Jesus himself points to Adam, calling himself over and over again, the son of Adam.

[Beloved Servant]

There is no DNA of Adam in Jesus.

[Molly]

There is no DNA of Adam in Jesus.

His physical geneaology is taken back to Adam--Luke 3.

[Beloved Servant]

Was Joseph His father?
He was conceived of the Spirit.

[Molly]

Was Joseph His father?
He was conceived of the Spirit.

Mary was his mother.

[Beloved Servant]

surrogate.

[Beloved Servant]

Luke 3, your reference, speaks only of Joseph.

[Molly]

Luke 3, your reference, speaks only of Joseph.

both genealogies only speak of men, but they are different.
One is for Joseph and one is for Mary.  They are different but neither mentions Mary because they are taken back through the males, being a paternalistic society.

John the Baptist was Jesus' cousin through Mary and also a Levite priest.  So IIRC, Jesus gets his Levite relatives through Mary and his kingly relatives through Joseph, although both go back through King David.  Jesus is both king and priest, but of the tribe of Judah.

Mat 1 gives the genealogy through Joseph.

16And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

--Mat 1

[jabcat]

quick input -  There's apparently debate as to whether Jesus had human DNA or not.  One writer I read went into a long explanation of DNA (over my head) and concluded it would have been impossible ("all things are possible with God" :) for Jesus not to have had Mary's DNA.  I  :dontknow:.     I would have figured He did, but then, it wouldn't be the first thing I was wrong about.   :winkgrin:

[jabcat]

I think that's what Dave was getting at by "surrogate".   :2c:

[Molly]

In continuing the genealogy all the way to Adam, the progenitor of all mankind, the gospel is seen as emphasizing Jesus's universal mission.

Lastly, some, from as early as John of Damascus, view "as was supposed of Joseph" as a parenthetical note, with Luke actually calling Jesus a son of Eli—meaning, it is then suggested, that Heli (Ηλι, Heli) is the maternal grandfather of Jesus, and Luke is actually tracing the ancestry of Jesus according to the flesh through Mary.[14] Therefore per Adam Clarke (1817), John Wesley, John Kitto and others the expression "Joseph, [ ] of Heli", without the word "son" being present in the Greek, indicates that "Joseph, of Heli" is to be read "Joseph, [son-in-law] of Heli".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogy_of_Jesus

[Molly]

I think that's what Dave was getting at by "surrogate".   :2c:

Jesus' mother was Mary.  That is the genealogy in Luke that goes back to Adam.  He gets his priestly connections [Levite] through his mother and his kingly connections [Judah] through his surrogate father Joseph.  Although both genealogies go through King David, Jesus is considered of the tribe of Judah through his father, Joseph.

Yet, Mary's line also goes through King David.  Jesus is the first priest from the kingly tribe of Judah, making him both king and priest [after the order of Melchizedek].  Melchizedek means king of righteousness.

So, in other words, although God has used the earthly lines to prove Jesus from the tribe of Judah and both king [through his father] and priest [through his mother], it then jumps into a spiritual dimension of king and priest after Melchizedek.

[Beloved Servant]

If He had even one ounce of the first Adam's blood coursing through His veins, then He Himself NEEDED A SAVIOUR.

Jesus came as the Head of an entirely new creation. In fact He Himself WAS A NEW CREATURE, different from any that had ever been. I want to make it very plain that Jesus was in no way derived from the First Adam, either by flesh or by blood.

Hear now what Paul says of the Christ: "The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is THE LORD FROM HEAVEN" (I Cor. 15:45-47).

Jesus was not fifty percent the first Adam and fifty percent the last Adam. He was one hundred percent the last Adam!

He was not fifty percent the first man and fifty percent the last man.
He was not fifty percent the man of earth and fifty percent the Lord from heaven.

The second man I-S (100%) THE LORD FROM HEAVEN.
To be the second man and the last Adam He could in no way contain any part of the first Adam.
To be the man from heaven He must not be a descendant of the man of the earth. He must be an entirely NEW KIND OF MAN, separate from every other creation of God, as was the first man Adam in the day when he was created.

The first Adam was truly without father, without mother, and without descent – he was not derived from the life of any other man who had ever lived. So the last Adam!
Though He was conceived IN the womb of Mary, He was not OF Mary.
He was not formed from the union of the sperm of God with the ovum of Mary.
His genes were not half from Mary and half from His heavenly Father.
"That holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called THE SON OF GOD," declared the angel to Mary.
Mary was merely a surrogate mother.
Jesus was as truly man, as truly flesh, as was the first man, but He was also as truly a UNIQUE CREATION OF GOD as was the first man in Eden.

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Echoes/echoes37.htm

[Molly]

I don't see any reason to believe Mary was a surrogate mother.

She gives birth to a human child who is the Word made flesh.

For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man,
--Rom 8:3


7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
--Phil 2



14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

--Heb 2

[jabcat]

I had never even considered this before a couple of months ago, but those are very compelling thoughts from our Brother Eby, Dave.

[Beloved Servant]

The Shepherd leads to where He is feeding His sheep.

[jabcat]

 

The Shepherd leads to where He is feeding His sheep.

:bigGrin:


what do you think about that info from Bro. Eby, Mol?

[Molly]

The Shepherd leads to where He is feeding His sheep.

:bigGrin:


what do you think about that info from Bro. Eby, Mol?

I haven't read the whole article but based on the post, I think he's wrong.

Jesus' favorite title for himself is son of Adam.

[Beloved Servant]

He was created of the dust of Mary's womb.

[Molly]

 

Hear now what Paul says of the Christ: "The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

He is made a quickening spirit at his resurrection.  As will we.

[Beloved Servant]

He raised Lazarus.