PaulH you posted the following, and it got me thinking again about something I've thought about before -
"Actually, the aspect of forgivness is often misunderstood. You believe that you must go to God for forgiveness everytime you drink, but you have already been forgiven.
Go to him for comfort and strength to have power over your flesh. The flesh is what you are battling, you are not in a battle for your soul concerning your drinking."
-------------
I've wondered several things about this, and heard multiple beliefs. Without thinking it through/researching a lot, let me throw out a few thoughts folks can follow up on.
Jesus died for all our sins, past, present, future. Some say there is no more sin, I personally don't think that's true - look around, read the news. However, although Apostle Paul mentioned sin, I don't know of anyplace he talked about believers asking for forgiveness for sin. In fact, he said he battled sin, but that it was no longer him that did it.
Peter(?) said if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us. (Post-cross, but to Jews/Jewish Christians, as some say, doesn't apply to grafted in gentiles?)
Jesus said if we don't forgive others, then our trespasses won't be forgiven. (PRE-cross, does that matter in this instance?)
Ap. Paul said to not continue in sin so that grace may abound.
If there either a) is no sin (I don't believe that) or b) we don't need forgiveness of "new" sins, they're already forgiven, then what about this scenario? I get angry, hit my neighbor in the head with a stick, and kill him. I don't believe I would "go to hell" for that, but what are folks' thoughts on "where I stand", what I need to do? My current belief is, I confess that sin and ask for forgiveness, and I'm forgiven. Still natural consequences, but God has forgiven and forgotten - no further "debt to pay" regarding God (Jesus paid the debt anyway, right?.) Was that "not me, it was the sin dwelling in me", or some other scenario?
Thoughts on all this (with solid scriptural backing please :bigGrin:) ?
Some say with unconfessed/unforgiven sin, people go to hell.
Some say with unconfessed/unforgiven sin, salvation not compromised but fellowship with Jesus is "strained", loss of joy, contentment.
Others say with sin and disobedience, loss of "overcoming/conquering", so loss of inner court service/sonship....
Others say don't worry about it... :mshock:
Ephesians 1:
13 In Whom you also -- on hearing the word of truth, the evangel of your salvation -- in Whom on believing also,
you are sealed with the holy spirit of promise
However, these two points you raise:
- loss of "overcoming/conquering", so loss of inner court service/sonship
Ring true to my spirit.
Although Sonship is beyond the veil, in the Holy of Holies, not the inner court.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 22, 2010, 02:43:28 AM
Ephesians 1:
in Whom on believing also, you are sealed with the holy spirit of promise
Amen David. "He Who has started a good work in you will complete it".
IMO, the end result is
ultimately guaranteed. It's the process, responsibility, and consquences I wonder about - you know, wide road/narrow path; not hurt of 2nd death/saved as by fire; few stripes/many stripes; faithful servant/turned over to satan, etc. I've always felt convicted to confess/ask forgiveness, believing that was God working in me. Others seem to have other ideas, and I'm interested in scriptural insights.
Good word. :thumbsup:
James, I may write more later, but one thing I want to make clear is that what I wrote is not suggesting we are without sin. It is mainly getting past the emotional idea of Gods gonna get us if we don't appease him approach to spirituality.
This is what people do when they screw up and then get the guilt complex and ask forgiveness from God then go out and do it again. There is nothing spiritual or real about it, it is all a mind game within ones self to self medicate.
It is about understanding that our actions are about understanding that forgivness or not, nothing prevents us from reaping what we sow. For instance, God may not punish me for drinking, but that will not prevent me from reaping the consequenses of facing the reality concerning the people I hurt because of it.
If I am unforgiven, then I am damned, the fact that I am not damned means I am forgiven, that forgivness will not prevent me from getting pulled over when I'm doing 13 over. ;)
Just my :2c:.
I use to think I had to ask God for forgiveness all the time. Until one day a friend ask my forgiveness for something that we had already settled and I had forgotten about. I got to thinking how we must frustrate God by asking forgiveness for sin when Christ has already taken care of it. If I am understanding correctly the purpose of Christ dying on the tree for the sins of the whole world, which I believe covered past present and future sins, then I don't have to keep asking for forgiveness. I think there is a difference between asking for forgiveness and feeling sorry for something.
I always thought this is what this verse was about. (Heb. 10:26) "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins". There was only one sacrifice for sins and that was Jesus, so there is no more sacrifice for sins, there is no more need for a sacrifice. Others might see this verse as pertaining to something else?
When my friend apoligized and asked for forgiveness for something that we had already settled, it just brought back the remembrance of the whole thing which I didn't want to remember. I wondered if asking God to forgive us over and over for things, if we aren't crucifying Christ all over again? Everytime someone sinned in the OT they offered a sacrifice but Christ was our sacrifice, so we shouldn't have to ask for forgiveness over and over, we have already been forgiven.
CHB
CHB,
With asking for forgiveness you at least admit there is something that needs to be forgiven.
I think that's a headstart on those who don't even know soemthing has to be forgiven.
I think things still have to be forgiven. Or payed in full. Jesus already deposited the payment so it won't cost us.
I think better would be instead of asking for forgivenes is thanking for forgiveness already received.
But that doesn't really sound ok to me either...
KJVLuk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.
QuoteWhen my friend apoligized and asked for forgiveness for something that we had already settled, it just brought back the remembrance of the whole thing which I didn't want to remember.
That can't really compared to Father's perfect memory.
He forgives but never forgets.
Psalm 103:
especially verse 12;
As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6zdihmwy1M
Quote from: jabcat on April 22, 2010, 02:36:06 AM
Some say with unconfessed/unforgiven sin, people go to hell.
Some say with unconfessed/unforgiven sin, salvation not compromised but fellowship with Jesus is "strained", loss of joy, contentment.
Others say with sin and disobedience, loss of "overcoming/conquering", so loss of inner court service/sonship....
Others say don't worry about it... :mshock:
For me repentance comes natural, I believe it not because I am going to hell or any other reason other than to keep me humble and not repeat the same offense, I am not sure I could offend God.
I am convicted by God, or so it seems, so I repent.
Yes I feel guilty if I don't repent.
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 22, 2010, 06:46:41 PM
CHB,
With asking for forgiveness you at least admit there is something that needs to be forgiven.
I think that's a headstart on those who don't even know soemthing has to be forgiven.
But hasn't God already forgiven us through the death of Jesus?
Quote from: WhiteWings
I think things still have to be forgiven. Or payed in full. Jesus already deposited the payment so it won't cost us.
Did Jesus only die for our past sins? I think we have to come to the realization that things have already been forgiven.
Quote from: WhiteWings
I think better would be instead of asking for forgivenes is thanking for forgiveness already received.
But that doesn't really sound ok to me either...
This sounds better to me.
Quote from: WhiteWings
KJVLuk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.
Isn't this true even today? Most don't know or understand things, if they did they wouldn't do it.
Quote from: WhiteWings
QuoteWhen my friend apoligized and asked for forgiveness for something that we had already settled, it just brought back the remembrance of the whole thing which I didn't want to remember.
That can't really compared to Father's perfect memory.
He forgives but never forgets.
I have heard people say this, "I will forgive them but I won't forget it". Is that true forgiveness? If you forgive someone for something you don't keep it in your mind. God said about Israel, "I will remember their sins no more".
CHB
Isaiah 43:25 (NASB)
25 "I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, And I will not remember your sins.
Jeremiah 31 (Message Bible)
I'll wipe the slate clean for each of them. I'll forget they ever sinned!" God's Decree.
Hebrews 8: (Weymouth)
12 Because I will be merciful to their wrongdoings, and their sins I will remember no longer.'"
Hebrews 10: (Weymouth)
17 He adds, "And their sins and offences I will remember no longer."
willieH: Hi brothers... :hithere:
Quote from: jabcat on April 22, 2010, 02:57:55 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 22, 2010, 02:43:28 AM
Ephesians 1:
in Whom on believing also, you are sealed with the holy spirit of promise
Amen David. "He Who has started a good work in you will complete it".
IMO, the end result is ultimately guaranteed. It's the process, responsibility, and consquences I wonder about - you know, wide road/narrow path; not hurt of 2nd death/saved as by fire; few stripes/many stripes; faithful servant/turned over to satan, etc. I've always felt convicted to confess/ask forgiveness, believing that was God working in me. Others seem to have other ideas, and I'm interested in scriptural insights.
Good word. :thumbsup:
Good stuff guys... GOD is WORKING ALL THINGS --
Eph 1:11 -- so concerns as to our individual "parts" in that process, are that which is being revealed WITHIN the process, which is being WORKED by HIM...
As I see it, ...the LARGEST hurdle in the pathway of UNDERSTANDING, ...is ourselves...
Once we arrive at the "place" in time where we LET GO of
ourselves, and COMPLETELY submit to HIM...
then we can see that WE are not the "deciders" of our individual pathways (which have to do with one another), including both the journey to SUBMISSION ...and... the submission itself!
Which IS in fact --- the revelation of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL from the Heart of
YHVH God which is DECLARED by His
WORD, ...and that HE is moving "His BODY" (all men) through this realm, according to HIS WILL... Which revelation of said knowledge is EMERGENT from Him... and which knowledge CONCLUDES in Him... and which knowledge (after it is revealed), is SURPASSED by Him... the ALPHA
and OMEGA.
If we
remember that the END...
IS... the BEGINNING -- and the BEGINNING ...
IS... the END... Then we shall find comfort as we endure the process from one to the other... for the "ORIGIN" of that process ...IS... the same as the "DESTINY" of that process... and is indeed, ENCASED by it, ...
JESUS CHRIST... the
WORD which "KNOWS" --
Gen 3:22 -- the knowledge and indeed is REVEALING it.
When one (lets go and) recognizes that GOD is
unchanging... then IN that STILLNESS (of letting go), then KNOWS, that whatever BEGINS -- (emerges from Him) -- is ALWAYS emergent from Him... and whatever ENDS -- returns to its emergent point, ALWAYS ends in Him where it BEGAN... For the TWO are ONE and the SAME... (beginning & ending).
Rev 1:8 --
I AM, the ALPHA, ...AND... the OMEGA, the BEGINNING ...AND... the END... the Lord, which IS, and which WAS, and which IS TO COME, the AlmightyWhatever "BEGINS"... "begins IN HIM" --
Col 1:16 -- John 1:3 -- and whatever "ENDS"... "ends IN HIM" --
Heb 12:2 -- Heb 13:8EVERYTHING is emergent from Him --
Col 1:16 -- (which does NOT CHANGE)... and EVERYTHING culminates in Him --
1 Cor 15:28 -- Col 1:20 -- (which does NOT CHANGE)... within [the "CIRCLE" of] ETERNITY which has NO BEGINNING and NO END...
That which is "in between" (the "beginning and end") is the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL" which is
SURPASSED by the
LOVE of CHRIST --
Eph 3:19 -- which borders both the "beginning and end" of the KNOWLEDGE, ...of which we are all PART...
:Peace:
...willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: CHB on April 22, 2010, 08:38:47 PMDid Jesus only die for our past sins? I think we have to come to the realization that things have already been forgiven.
I think there is a misunderstanding on what I was trying to say.
I'll cover my tracks by selectively answering your questions :winkgrin:
Nah, seriously; I think the part I quoted might answer all your questions.
Jesus payed for all sins. For me that means:
- past sins -> People that lived/sinned before Jesus "payed in full"
- future sins -> I started sinning centuries after Jesus died
So when we sin a price has to be paid. Jesus already deposited the payments on all of our bankaccounts.
So yes things are already forgiven (payed for). But can something be forgiven before it even happens?
I think I'm making things to complicated again. Let's just say Jesus saved us :happy3:
Quote from: CHB on April 22, 2010, 08:38:47 PMI have heard people say this, "I will forgive them but I won't forget it". Is that true forgiveness? If you forgive someone for something you don't keep it in your mind. God said about Israel, "I will remember their sins no more".
I knew someone would mention that, or a similar verse. :laughing7:
For me it's simple. That verse doesn't exactly mean forget. How can we claim Father has infinite wisdom and at the same time claim He forgets zillions of sins? For me that's incompatible.
I think 'forget' means something like:
- No longer hold it against you.
- Not mention it again.
- Have no harsh feelings about it anymore.
- etc
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 22, 2010, 10:22:15 PM
Quote from: CHB on April 22, 2010, 08:38:47 PMI have heard people say this, "I will forgive them but I won't forget it". Is that true forgiveness? If you forgive someone for something you don't keep it in your mind. God said about Israel, "I will remember their sins no more".
I knew someone would mention that, or a similar verse. :laughing7:
For me it's simple. That verse doesn't exactly mean forget. How can we claim Father has infinite wisdom and at the same time claim He forgets zillions of sins? For me that's incompatible.
I think 'forget' means something like:
- No longer hold it against you.
- Not mention it again.
- Have no harsh feelings about it anymore.
- etc
Well it's not incompatible for for me.
I choose to believe the Scriptures.
Wisdom is the ability to appropriate knowledge.
So perhaps; In His wisdom,
not ours, He really CAN DO IT.
Quote from: WhiteWings
But can something be forgiven before it even happens?
Apparently, else Christ or someone else would have to die in the future for all the sins people have comitted since Christ died.
CHB
Quote from: SQ on April 22, 2010, 07:53:56 PM
Quote from: jabcat on April 22, 2010, 02:36:06 AM
Some say with unconfessed/unforgiven sin, people go to hell.
Some say with unconfessed/unforgiven sin, salvation not compromised but fellowship with Jesus is "strained", loss of joy, contentment.
Others say with sin and disobedience, loss of "overcoming/conquering", so loss of inner court service/sonship....
Others say don't worry about it... :mshock:
For me repentance comes natural, I believe it not because I am going to hell or any other reason other than to keep me humble and not repeat the same offense, I am not sure I could offend God.
I am convicted by God, or so it seems, so I repent.
Yes I feel guilty if I don't repent.
Yep, me too SQ. I don't feel at peace until I've confessed it - then instant relief. Hmmm
I think I understand what you're saying Paul, thanks.
Agree with a lot of what you've said WW.
Don't mean to miss anyone, but CHB, although I still believe in asking for forgiveness, another option I'm open to - which I think fits with what you're saying - is that I heard a preacher one time say that confessing our sin means we acknowledge it; basically agreeing with God that it's wrong. He was actually a Baptist preacher, and said that a number of years ago, but it stuck with me. Is it possible that was Ap. Paul's approach? Not begging and begging for forgiveness (as I said, I don't know of anyplace Paul said to do that or that he did that); but because of his identification with Christ and His desire to please His Father, it bothered him and he admitted it, agreed with God that it was sin, rather than just accept it or relish it and "continue in sin so grace would abound". Maybe that's not only a byproduct of the spiritual new birth, but also part of a believer's "progress"...thinking, suggesting...still interested in scriptural examination of the issue.
I agree regarding the scriptures Dave. There's "an answer" if all the scriptures on the subject are rightly divided...but without that and the Spirit's revelation of such, there seems to be sort of multiple possibilities. :scratchhead:
I just know when I'm walking according to His will.
And conversely, I know when I'm not.
It's gotten quite simple.
Quote from: jabcat on April 23, 2010, 05:16:44 AM
Yep, me too SQ. I don't feel at peace until I've confessed it - then instant relief. Hmmm
Confession is a different matter than forgiveness, confession is putting your burdens on God which is what He wants us to do.
I thought confession was agreeing/admitting.
Thinking of the scriptural aspects, specific thoughts on this verse anyone?
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. I John 1:9
Yeah,, found these defs, Paul. Maybe there are more/others...
con·fess
1.to acknowledge or avow (a fault, crime, misdeed, weakness, etc.) by way of revelation.
2.to own or admit as true: I must confess that I haven't read the book.
3.to declare or acknowledge (one's sins), esp. to god or a priest in order to obtain absolution.
4.(of a priest) to hear the confession of (a person).
5.to acknowledge one's belief or faith in; declare adherence to.
I can kind'a see what you're saying in #'s 1 and 2 (acknowledge a weakness/admit as true). Still, anyone, what are your thoughts on the I John verse in regards to sin?
Quote from: CHB on April 22, 2010, 06:30:00 PM
....past present and future sins.
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of a new covenant, that a death having taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that
were under the
first covenant, they that have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Well, if we start at verse 8:
"If we should be saying that we have no sin we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
Then verse 9 implies that we are constantly washed.
It is a present tense.
Active and alive.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 23, 2010, 06:37:57 AM
Well, if we start at verse 8:
"If we should be saying that we have no sin we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
Then verse 9 implies that we are constantly washed.
It is a present tense.
Active and alive.
Heb 9:12 nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood,
entered in once for all into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption.
Amen.
Ephesians 1:
13 In Whom you also -- on hearing the word of truth, the evangel of your salvation -- in Whom on believing also, you are sealed with the holy spirit of promise
Thanks guys.
Where do you think the IF factors in, i.e., "if we confess our sins.."? Perhaps that as believers we will do so as a result of Him working through us? But then again, it doesn't say when, it says if...
The Christian Bible translates as "If we are continually acknowledging the things that we have done that are wrong, He is going to be trustworthy and just to forgive us for our wrongdoings and make us clean from all injustice."
CLT has "If we should be avowing our sins, He is faithful and just that He may be pardoning us our sins and should be cleansing us from all injustice."
Also, anyone address the "what if I murdered my neighbor" scenario? Or if you murdered your neighbor, what would you do regarding that sin? And why, based on what scriptures?
OK, I'll get out of this discussion a bit and let folks kick it around. Thanks.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 23, 2010, 12:57:05 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 22, 2010, 10:22:15 PM
Quote from: CHB on April 22, 2010, 08:38:47 PMI have heard people say this, "I will forgive them but I won't forget it". Is that true forgiveness? If you forgive someone for something you don't keep it in your mind. God said about Israel, "I will remember their sins no more".
I knew someone would mention that, or a similar verse. :laughing7:
For me it's simple. That verse doesn't exactly mean forget. How can we claim Father has infinite wisdom and at the same time claim He forgets zillions of sins? For me that's incompatible.
I think 'forget' means something like:
- No longer hold it against you.
- Not mention it again.
- Have no harsh feelings about it anymore.
- etc
Well it's not incompatible for for me.
I choose to believe the Scriptures.
Such answers don't work for me David.
You also contradict yourself.
First you write it's compatible. Later you sound much less sure by using the word 'maybe'
QuoteWisdom is the ability to appropriate knowledge.
So perhaps; In His wisdom, not ours, He really CAN DO IT.
Maybe. Or maybe there are some translation or interpretation issues...
I still strongly edge to the last.
The word was "perhaps" not maybe.
It was a platitude.
Quote from: CHB on April 23, 2010, 02:17:05 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings
But can something be forgiven before it even happens?
Apparently, else Christ or someone else would have to die in the future for all the sins people have comitted since Christ died.
Or it simply means sins are forgiven on the moment they happen because they already are payed for.
I see it a bit like this. When Jesus payed for us on the cross zillions of little bags of money were put in front of the throne of Father.
Everytime a sin is commited Father picks up a little bags and says "Forgiven because I got the payment in My hand"
:laughing7:
Quote from: SQ on April 22, 2010, 07:53:56 PMFor me repentance comes natural, I believe it not because I am going to hell or any other reason other than to keep me humble and not repeat the same offense, I am not sure I could offend God.
I am convicted by God, or so it seems, so I repent.
Yes I feel guilty if I don't repent.
I think repentance can only come natural. Everything else is just fake.
I feel (sorta) bad for a speeding ticket. But only because it costs me money. Not because I feel I did something wrong.
But if I killed someone by pure accident I would feel bad about it. Even if the police would never figure out I was involved.
That repentance is a personality issue. I think thats'a true repentance from the heart/soul.
QuoteYes I feel guilty if I don't repent.
Perhaps circular reasoning; but if you don't repent for something that's already forgiven you need a lesson in repentance. For me it basicly means Jesus died for things that don't need to be repented for.
Repenting and being grateful for Jesus' blood isn't a contradiction for me.
Do you understand what I'm trying to say?
willieH: Hi James... :Sparkletooth:
Quote from: jabcat on April 23, 2010, 06:53:17 AM
Thanks guys.
Where do you think the IF factors in, i.e., "if we confess our sins.."? Perhaps that as believers we will do so as a result of Him working through us? But then again, it doesn't say when, it says if...
The Christian Bible translates as "If we are continually acknowledging the things that we have done that are wrong, He is going to be trustworthy and just to forgive us for our wrongdoings and make us clean from all injustice."
CLT has "If we should be avowing our sins, He is faithful and just that He may be pardoning us our sins and should be cleansing us from all injustice."
Also, anyone address the "what if I murdered my neighbor" scenario? Or if you murdered your neighbor, what would you do regarding that sin? And why, based on what scriptures?
OK, I'll get out of this discussion a bit and let folks kick it around. Thanks.
This is another of the "might" things... Like,
John 3:17 -- that the world through Him, ..."MIGHT"... be saved.
Does this mean that the SAVING of the WORLD in "in question", because the word "MIGHT" appears in this verse? Or is the deal DONE, and the word "MIGHT" is a VEHICULAR designation of surety... as opposed to an unsurety?
When we INCORRECTLY observe this word "IF"... then it transposes the "cleansing" of SIN, as due to OUR deed of confessing, ...as opposed to HIS HOLY impression on us that TRULY brought forth that confession. :idea2:
Phil 2:10-11 --- EVERY knee shall bow, and tongue CONFESS... in the which is the "TAKING AWAY of SIN".
In the confession of
CHRIST is the cleansing, NOT due to us, but due to HIM, for He is the Lamb which has TAKEN it AWAY...
John 1:29 -- and it is HE and HIS INFLUENCE upon our hearts, that causes that confession to come forth, that HE "might" take it away! :wink1:
...willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: jabcat on April 23, 2010, 05:16:44 AMAgree with a lot of what you've said WW.
Heretic! :gimmefive:
Quote from: jabcat on April 23, 2010, 06:09:00 AM
I thought confession was agreeing/admitting.
Thinking of the scriptural aspects, specific thoughts on this verse anyone?
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. I John 1:9
Yes it is, but what does not confessing mean? It really means you are trying to make it appear you have done nothing wrong.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
The verse you posted doesn't say we must ask for forgivness it assures us what confessing completes.
We are traditionally taught that our sins cause Gods displeasure in us, so confessing has become this idea that we must appease God with our confession and ask for his mercy of forgivness. In reality confessing is the means by which we overcome.
Quote from: Zeek on April 23, 2010, 06:41:20 AM
Heb 9:12 nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption.
:cloud9: As always, the Tabernacle pattern is being discussed here. This scripture is talking about the Day of Atonement, in which the High Priest went in ONCE A YEAR, and offered up a sacrifice for himself first, and then for the people.
The people were STILL required to bring their sacrifices throughout the year, including sin offerings, and no one was allowed to come empty handed.
The animal flesh is symbolic of our carnal beastly natures (lust, covetousness, pride, ect.) that we are supposed to offer up in repentance from dead works (works of the flesh and not of the Spirit).
The pattern never changes, our perception of it changes as we mature, in that we see that the natural/outward manifestation was to "rehearse" the spiritual/inward working of the Holy Spirit that was to come, as He does the works in us and thru us. Blessings.....
Quote from: willieH on April 23, 2010, 09:18:33 AM
In the confession of CHRIST is the cleansing, NOT due to us, but due to HIM, for He is the Lamb which has TAKEN it AWAY... John 1:29 -- and it is HE and HIS INFLUENCE upon our hearts, that causes that confession to come forth, that HE "might" take it away! :wink1:
...willieH :cloud9:
[/i][/b]
Makes sense Willi, thanks.
I had mentioned earlier I repent daily, I have gotten repentance and confession confused.
I confess daily about good things that happen and when I fall short.
Just talking on a daily basis. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Cardinal on April 23, 2010, 05:05:53 PM
The people were STILL required to bring their sacrifices throughout the year, including sin offerings, and no one was allowed to come empty handed.
The pattern never changes
Jesus said if we forgive others, our trespasses would be forgiven, and if we don't, they won't. He also talked of turning over to debtors until the price was exacted/paid, as well as few stripes/many stripes.
Since He said that if we don't forgive others then our trespasses won't be forgiven either, I'm wondering how it's possible that all our future sins are automatically already forgiven without asking forgiveness - or at least confessing them - thereby activating specific forgiveness. I'm not quite seeing it. It seems to me that although the provision has been made and things will ultimately come to pass, we either confess our sins now or will definitely do so later. I mean we talk about the cleansing Lake of Fire vs. not being hurt of the 2nd death etc. Seems to me that saying everything's already completely taken care of sort of negates all that. Again, obviously not saying He sends us to an eternal torment, but that there's some corrective discipline that takes place. Thinking here... :bigGrin:
Quote from: jabcat on April 23, 2010, 08:21:58 PM
Quote from: willieH on April 23, 2010, 09:18:33 AM
In the confession of CHRIST is the cleansing, NOT due to us, but due to HIM, for He is the Lamb which has TAKEN it AWAY... John 1:29 -- and it is HE and HIS INFLUENCE upon our hearts, that causes that confession to come forth, that HE "might" take it away! :wink1:
...willieH :cloud9:
[/i][/b]
Makes sense Willi, thanks.
and, it seems like you're saying there's still a "future"/yet-to-occur tense involved here...like I said, the provision's made, good as done/will be done, but there's still confessing to do. Is that right? That's how I see it. God ensures it, it's Him working in us, but there's still a process occurring and it's not all "automatically" taken care of. :thinking:
Quote from: jabcat on April 24, 2010, 09:26:16 AM
Jesus said if we forgive others, our trespasses would be forgiven, and if we don't, they won't. He also talked of turning over to debtors until the price was exacted/paid, as well as few stripes/many stripes.
Since He said that if we don't forgive others then our trespasses won't be forgiven either, I'm wondering how it's possible that all our future sins are automatically already forgiven without asking forgiveness - or at least confessing them - thereby activating specific forgiveness. I'm not quite seeing it. It seems to me that although the provision has been made and things will ultimately come to pass, we either confess our sins now or will definitely do so later. I mean we talk about the cleansing Lake of Fire vs. not being hurt of the 2nd death etc. Seems to me that saying everything's already completely taken care of sort of negates all that.
KJVRom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
I think it's connected to that verse. Many are not doing that now so obviously it must be set for a later date.
As for sin already forgiven. I see that slightly different. Because the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world all sin will be forgiven. So from that pov it's a done deal. It was/is a promise/prophecy. But that doesn't mean it's already done.
The birth of Jesus was also a prophecy. It was a fact back then that Jesus would be born. But it is also a fact that He was born after the OT people that prophecised about Him.
Similary I think it's the same with sins. we have to confess before they are forgiven. If we then get beaten with a zillion or no stripes at all is a different matter.
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 24, 2010, 10:15:39 AM
Quote from: jabcat on April 24, 2010, 09:26:16 AM
Jesus said if we forgive others, our trespasses would be forgiven, and if we don't, they won't. He also talked of turning over to debtors until the price was exacted/paid, as well as few stripes/many stripes.
Since He said that if we don't forgive others then our trespasses won't be forgiven either, I'm wondering how it's possible that all our future sins are automatically already forgiven without asking forgiveness - or at least confessing them - thereby activating specific forgiveness. I'm not quite seeing it. It seems to me that although the provision has been made and things will ultimately come to pass, we either confess our sins now or will definitely do so later. I mean we talk about the cleansing Lake of Fire vs. not being hurt of the 2nd death etc. Seems to me that saying everything's already completely taken care of sort of negates all that.
KJVRom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
I think it's connected to that verse. Many are not doing that now so obviously it must be set for a later date.
As for sin already forgiven. I see that slightly different. Because the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world all sin will be forgiven. So from that pov it's a done deal. It was/is a promise/prophecy. But that doesn't mean it's already done.
The birth of Jesus was also a prophecy. But it is a fact that Jesus would be born. But it was also a fact that He was born after the OT people that prophecised about Him.
Similary I think it's the same with sins. we have to confess before they are forgiven. If we then get beaten with a zillion or no stripes at all is a different matter.
Almost EXACTLY the same way I see it. Uh-oh, we're thinking alike WW. Don't let that scare you too much :laughhand:.
Quote from: jabcat on April 24, 2010, 10:23:07 AMDon't let that scare you too much :laughhand:
I don't scare easily but now... :help:
It would be much easier if the NT would have be clearly split into 2 parts.
Jew/Gentile. Pre and after crucifixion. Etc
I'm not sure but I get the impression some people in this thread see:
QuoteJesus said if we forgive others, our trespasses would be forgiven, and if we don't, they won't. He also talked of turning over to debtors until the price was exacted/paid, as well as few stripes/many stripes.
as a command that sorta expired after Jesus was risen from the dead.
Quote from: jabcat on April 24, 2010, 09:26:16 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on April 23, 2010, 05:05:53 PM
The people were STILL required to bring their sacrifices throughout the year, including sin offerings, and no one was allowed to come empty handed.
The pattern never changes
Jesus said if we forgive others, our trespasses would be forgiven, and if we don't, they won't. He also talked of turning over to debtors until the price was exacted/paid, as well as few stripes/many stripes.
Since He said that if we don't forgive others then our trespasses won't be forgiven either, I'm wondering how it's possible that all our future sins are automatically already forgiven without asking forgiveness - or at least confessing them - thereby activating specific forgiveness. I'm not quite seeing it. It seems to me that although the provision has been made and things will ultimately come to pass, we either confess our sins now or will definitely do so later. I mean we talk about the cleansing Lake of Fire vs. not being hurt of the 2nd death etc. Seems to me that saying everything's already completely taken care of sort of negates all that. Again, obviously not saying He sends us to an eternal torment, but that there's some corrective discipline that takes place. Thinking here... :bigGrin:
:cloud9: It goes along with the tense of salvation; we are saved, we're being saved, we shall be saved. If we are pressing in, we are continually having the light separated from the darkness IN US. THIS is the harvest; what is being harvested is CHRIST IN US, the good seed of Matt. 13, the hope of glory.
He is being raised up/resurrected IN US. What Christendom lost was the understanding that He came into all men as the light. So if He is there in our "tomb", He MUST resurrect because it is written, and the Word cannot be broken. Blessings.....
As Dallas mentioned in another thread, I think it is about KNOWING that all is forgiven. The world was saved before the foundation of the world, most just don't have that knowledge now. Everything is a done deal but the process is in progress.
We were predestined before we were born to understand certain things (Eph. 1:4-12). Does that mean the rest of the world won't be saved? Are they not just like we are? They just don't understand it at this time.
(Verse 7) "In whom we have redemption through his blood, the FORGIVNESS OF SINS, according to the riches of his grace". We were sold under sin but Christ bought us back.
What does redemption mean? It doesn't say we are being redeemed, it says we HAVE redemption. (Heb. 9:12) having OBTAINED eternal redemption. (Heb. 10:14) "For by one offering he hath PERFECTED FOR EVER them that are sanctified".
Does this mean that not all are sanctified? (John 17:19) "And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might BE SANCTIFIED THROUGH THE TRUTH".
If we died when Christ died, were resurrected when Christ was resurrected and have sit down with him in the heavenlies why do we need to ask for forgiveness anymore? If we are dead in Christ. We have already gone through the second death and LOF.
CHB
QuoteThe world was saved before the foundation of the world, most just don't have that knowledge now. Everything is a done deal but the process is in progress.
We were predestined before we were born to understand certain things (Eph. 1:4-12). Does that mean the rest of the world won't be saved? Are they not just like we are? They just don't understand it at this time.
:thumbsup:
1 Cor 15:20But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23
But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
QuoteIf we died when Christ died, were resurrected when Christ was resurrected and have sit down with him in the heavenlies why do we need to ask for forgiveness anymore?
IMO - We don't need to ask for forgiveness anymore, forgiveness is ours before we needed it. However we do need to aknowledge when we do something harmful to others and ourselves so we can repent from it and not do it again.
As Dallas pointed out in another thread...
Quote1 John 3:6 "No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him
If we are in Him what would we need to ask forgiveness for if we don't sin anymore? Pretty powerful stuff!