Should Church and state be separate?

[Paul Hazelwood]

Actually I am just making some comparisons,  you should of just said you do not like the changes to the constitution concerning womens voting rights because if you did, you would say so.

[Paul Hazelwood]

P.S. Quote PaulH - "then all you have to say is a certain sects intepretation is what should rule."

And that's a huge part of the problem, huh?   I do know I don't personally want a government that's not truly headed by God Almighty telling me what I should or shouldn't be doing morally - yet they do, regarding stealing, killing, etc. - so it really becomes a complicated issue  :sigh:.  And since it is, and since we sin, and since God's not established his total, righteous government yet, I guess that's why we're waiting and the whole creation's groaning for deliverance.....  

I don't want to complain, so I'll end on a positive note.  God's still good, He still protects and is leading us right where He wants us to go, and He still says this - "in the world you will have trouble, but take courage for I have conquered the world."  :thumbsup:

Well James, one thing we can be sure of despite claims of religion, there would be no human government truly ran by men of God. 

So we can be sure that a Christian theocracy would be as corrupt as the one now and quite possibly more barbaric but it would be hidden deeply within dogma  even harder to spot and deal with than it is now.   For how do you argue against someone in authority who saysd God said to do it?   Try just debating with someone in a forum with no authority who says  "God said it not me"  and you see the problem.

When I hear people say that our country is worse off than before,  that just seems to be a perspective based on appearances rather than the reality of things we have overcome.   The fact that we still have work to do doesn't change what we have overcome.

[Molly]

Actually I am just making some comparisons,  you should of just said you do not like the changes to the constitution concerning womens voting rights because if you did, you would say so.

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand

A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

--Emma Lazurus





Galatians 4:26
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

[firstborn888]

Fathers have been put in jail in MA because they objected to the public school giving their 5 year old a story book of two men marrying complete with two men kissing each other on the lips---and so forth.  

In jail for objecting? I'd love to read that story. Can you provide a reference?

[Molly]

Fathers have been put in jail in MA because they objected to the public school giving their 5 year old a story book of two men marrying complete with two men kissing each other on the lips---and so forth.  

In jail for objecting? I'd love to read that story. Can you provide a reference?

BRAVE NEW SCHOOLS

Father faces trial over school's 'pro-gay' book
Arrested after objecting to kindergartner's reading material

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: August 04, 2005
1:00 am Eastern

© 2010 WorldNetDaily.com




A Massachusetts man faces a court trial over a dispute about the teaching of homosexuality in his son's kindergarten class.

David Parker, of Lexington, spent a night in jail and was charged with criminal trespassing after refusing to leave a scheduled meeting with school officials April 27, unless they gave him the option of pulling his child out of certain classes.

Parker says the officials had indicated they would agree to a notification policy then suddenly refused. He insists he has done nothing wrong and is willing to contest the charge rather than plea-bargain.

At a hearing Tuesday, Parker's trial date was set for Sept. 21.

The Lexington School Board contends Parker deliberately set out to be arrested and make national headlines.

Parker's attorney, Jeffrey Denner, rejected that claim as supporters picketed outside the courthouse.




"That is simply untrue. I don't speak for the school, but that is simply untrue," he said. "He was invited to come in, he came in, there was a dialogue going back and forth, there were faxes sent back and forth, from the school to the school committee. His intent was absolutely not to be arrested. His intent was to establish a dialogue to protect his own children and other children as well."

The dispute began last spring when Parker's then-5-year-old son brought home a book to be shared with his parents titled, "Who's in a Family?" The optional reading material, which came in a "Diversity Book Bag," depicted at least two households led by homosexual partners.

"There's a larger issue here locally and nationally and internationally about the role of family and what kind of encroachments government can make into children's and people's lives," Denner told reporters.

The illustrated book, according to the local non-profit group Article 8 Alliance, says, "A family can be made up in many different ways" and includes this text:


"Laura and Kyle live with their two moms, Joyce and Emily, and a poodle named Daisy. It takes all four of them to give Daisy her bath."
Another illustrated page says:


"Robin's family is made up of her dad, Clifford, her dad's partner, Henry, and Robin's cat, Sassy. Clifford and Henry take turns making dinner for their family."
Article 8, an opponent of the state's same-sex marriage law, says the book "uses subtle but powerful emotions to normalize homosexual relationships in the minds of the young children."

A backer of the Lexington School District, Laura Tully, argued, according to WCVB-TV in Boston, "A 5-year-old who is coming to the classroom with two moms deserves to be in a classroom that includes books that show his family."

Denner said he is negotiating with school officials to prevent the trial, but he also indicated that Parker likely will file a civil suit in federal court by this fall against the town of Lexington, the school system and its officials.


http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45594

[Molly]

David Parker's first-grade son surrounded and beaten up at school.

Caps year-long public campaign of anti-Parker hate by pro-gay activists in town.

Hostile school officials work with local gay groups to demean Parker family and discredit facts about incident. Create alternative, watered-down version of story a month after incident. Disgraceful campaign of disinformation.

Young children polarized by intolerant atmosphere created by adults. School at first acknowledges facts about beating. But later radically changes story and works with gay activists to demean Parkers.

http://www.massresistance.org/docs/parker/parker_son_incident/index.html

[Molly]

"Safe Schools" czar Kevin Jennings to get $410 million in Obama's 2011 federal budget
To push homosexual and transgender programs in America's schools!

POSTED: Feb 25, 2010

Despite the national recession and federal budget deficits, Barack Obama is including $410 million in the 2011 budget for his "safes schools" czar Kevin Jennings (an increase of $45 million). As we've documented by his actions over the years pushing homosexuality to schoolchildren, Jennings will use this money to force the homosexual/transgender agenda into America's public schools.

This year, his main approach is through "school climate" surveys given to kids in schools. The survey "tests" how gay-friendly and transgender-friendly schools are. If the schools don't meet a certain standard, the administration can determine that the school is "unsafe" and require more homosexual programs and activities. These surveys have already been pushed as a jump-start in many Massachusetts schools for years by GLSEN and the Massachusetts Commission for GLBT Youth.

Here's what CitizenLink recently reported about this:

So what does Jennings intend to do with this money?

For starters, he says he's going to make "school climate" measurement a top priority -- and, in fact, he'd love for "school climate" to eventually be made part of the "Common Core" national standards movement! He plans to begin with "a new grant program coming out of this department where we'll be providing possibly as much as $70 million for investments in school climate projects." (He revealed all this and much more in this month's Phi Delta Kappan magazine. Scroll down to the "Safe at School" title.)

So at this point, you might be wondering, What on earth does "school climate" really mean? I think it's best to take that definition from Kevin Jennings-based on his record as the longtime founder and leader of GLSEN (Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network).

Under Jennings' leadership, GLSEN has provided students with a "school climate" continuum measurement tool. This tool reveals a lot about Jennings' true goals: A positively rated "inclusive school," for instance, is defined as one where "LGBT themes are fully integrated into curricula across a variety of subject areas and grade levels."

I.e., Jennings and GLSEN want homosexual, bisexual and transgender themes taught in every subject at every grade, all the way down to the kindergarten level, maybe even preschool.

By contrast, a "hostile school," is one where "Curricula are devoid of LGBT themes" and homosexuality is "characterized" as "sin." Does this mean that a school that acknowledges Christian students' free speech rights to express their opinions about things like same-sex marriage is rated as "hostile"? Does this mean that if students disagree with lessons taught in class about homosexuality and same-sex marriage that they will be in violation of "school climate" safety policies?

Is this how Kevin Jennings will use taxpayer-funded money to measure our schools and force changes?

Read entire article HERE

Currently in Maine, the spokesman for GLSEN is a major proponent of transgender bathrooms in Maine's schools (even at the elementary level). See the

http://www.massresistance.org/docs/issues/kevin_jennings/410_million/index.html

[Molly]

What's this?



Public Law 97-280


"We should live our lives as though Christ were coming this afternoon."

- Jimmy Carter


"I was humbled to learn that God sent His Son to die for a sinner like me."

- George W. Bush


"We hold these truths to be self-evident; that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness."

- Thomas Jefferson,
Declaration of Independence, July 4, 1776



Introduced as Senate Joint Resolution 165, with thirty-three co-sponsors, and as House Joint Resolution 487 with 219 co-sponsors, a request was delivered before Congress to honor the Bible as Holy Scripture. The resolution suffered no amendments, no exclusions, no demands that it be stricken of religious references. It became law.

The 97th Congress of the United States publicly declared 1983 the national "Year of the Bible". The bipartisan document known as Public Law 97-280, was signed on October 4, 1982 by Speaker of the House Thomas P. O'Neill, President of the Senate - Pro Tempore Strom Thurmond, and President of the United States Ronald Reagan. It reads as follows:

WHEREAS the Bible, the Word of God, has made a unique contribution in shaping the United States as a distinctive and blessed nation and people;

WHEREAS deeply held religious convictions springing from the Holy Scriptures led to the early settlement of our Nation;

WHEREAS Biblical teachings inspired concepts of civil government that are contained in our Declaration of Independence and Constitution of the United States;

WHEREAS many of our great national leaders--among them Presidents Washington, Jackson, Lincoln, and Wilson--paid tribute to the surpassing influence of the Bible in our country's development, as in the words of President Jackson that the Bible is "the Rock on which our Republic rests";

WHEREAS the history of our Nation clearly illustrates the value of voluntarily applying the teachings of the Scriptures in the lives of individuals, families, and societies; WHEREAS this Nation now faces great challenges that will test this Nation as it has never been tested before; and

WHEREAS that renewing our knowledge of and faith in God through Holy Scripture can strengthen us as a nation and a people: NOW, THEREFORE, be it

Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That the President is authorized and requested to designate 1983 as a national "Year of the Bible" in recognition of both the formative influence the Bible has been for our Nation, and our national need to study and apply the teachings of the Holy Scriptures. 33

http://www.provethebible.net/T2-Hist/H-0901.htm



"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ."

- Patrick Henry

[Paul Hazelwood]

Molly, are you in support of a Christian theocracy in America?

[Molly]

Molly, are you in support of a Christian theocracy in America?

I don't know what a "Christian theocracy" would be.

But I'm in support of this--


"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ."

- Patrick Henry




and this--

The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever."

--Rev 11:15


And this--


Daniel 2:44
"In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever.

[firstborn888]

Fathers have been put in jail in MA because they objected to the public school giving their 5 year old a story book of two men marrying complete with two men kissing each other on the lips---and so forth.  

In jail for objecting? I'd love to read that story. Can you provide a reference?

BRAVE NEW SCHOOLS

Father faces trial over school's 'pro-gay' book
Arrested after objecting to kindergartner's reading material

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: August 04, 2005
1:00 am Eastern

© 2010 WorldNetDaily.com

A Massachusetts man faces a court trial over a dispute about the teaching of homosexuality in his son's kindergarten class.

David Parker, of Lexington, spent a night in jail and was charged with criminal trespassing after refusing to leave a scheduled meeting with school officials April 27, unless they gave him the option of pulling his child out of certain classes.

Well, WND is spinning the story the same as you did. He wasn't arrested for objecting, he was arrested because he wouldn't leave the building when it was time to close. It was a smart move because anyone knows civil disobedience and arrests make news and can get your base motivated. But to say he was arrested for objecting to the class material is a flat out lie. 

[firstborn888]

What's this?



Public Law 97-280


"We should live our lives as though Christ were coming this afternoon."

- Jimmy Carter


"I was humbled to learn that God sent His Son to die for a sinner like me."

- George W. Bush


"We hold these truths to be self-evident; that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness."

- Thomas Jefferson,
Declaration of Independence, July 4, 1776



Introduced as Senate Joint Resolution 165, with thirty-three co-sponsors, and as House Joint Resolution 487 with 219 co-sponsors, a request was delivered before Congress to honor the Bible as Holy Scripture. The resolution suffered no amendments, no exclusions, no demands that it be stricken of religious references. It became law.

The 97th Congress of the United States publicly declared 1983 the national "Year of the Bible". The bipartisan document known as Public Law 97-280, was signed on October 4, 1982 by Speaker of the House Thomas P. O'Neill, President of the Senate - Pro Tempore Strom Thurmond, and President of the United States Ronald Reagan. It reads as follows:

WHEREAS the Bible, the Word of God, has made a unique contribution in shaping the United States as a distinctive and blessed nation and people;

WHEREAS deeply held religious convictions springing from the Holy Scriptures led to the early settlement of our Nation;

WHEREAS Biblical teachings inspired concepts of civil government that are contained in our Declaration of Independence and Constitution of the United States;

WHEREAS many of our great national leaders--among them Presidents Washington, Jackson, Lincoln, and Wilson--paid tribute to the surpassing influence of the Bible in our country's development, as in the words of President Jackson that the Bible is "the Rock on which our Republic rests";

WHEREAS the history of our Nation clearly illustrates the value of voluntarily applying the teachings of the Scriptures in the lives of individuals, families, and societies; WHEREAS this Nation now faces great challenges that will test this Nation as it has never been tested before; and

WHEREAS that renewing our knowledge of and faith in God through Holy Scripture can strengthen us as a nation and a people: NOW, THEREFORE, be it

Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That the President is authorized and requested to designate 1983 as a national "Year of the Bible" in recognition of both the formative influence the Bible has been for our Nation, and our national need to study and apply the teachings of the Holy Scriptures. 33

http://www.provethebible.net/T2-Hist/H-0901.htm



"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ."

- Patrick Henry

So they honored the influence and inspiration of the bible - that's awesome.

The founding fathers were a diverse bunch - Christians, diests, agnostics - but ALL understood the problems involved when a government endorses any religious creed.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances".

The purpose above is crystal clear.

Plus - I believe the Patrick Henry quote you gave is bogus (do some research - from what I understand it's not in any of his writings). In fact there is a boatload of false quotes going around by the folks that want to make Christianity the U.S. state religion.

Like I said - the right wing "Christian nation" movement is way off base. History has proven that whenever a government endorses a state religion (Christianity, Islam or whatever) the result is ALWAYS disastrous. The pilgrims were fleeing this sort of system!!! That's why the founders intelligently left out any reference to Jesus in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.   

The government needs to stay the hell out of faith matters except to protect the right of citizens to believe as they wish. It's called 'freedom'.

[Molly]

The pilgrims were fleeing this sort of system!!!

The Pilgrims were fleeing Christian governments who were telling them they must, as Christians, believe and behave in a certain way.  The Pilgrims themselves were Christians.  They came here as a church relocation program.  Once they got here, when different Christian groups agreed to disagree, they built a new church or founded a new town, much as happens here on the internet.  The fact that they allowed each other to do this, this freedom of worship, is memorialized in the New England town square which is always flanked by at least two different Christian churches.   But, they were ALL Christians.

THAT's the point.  This country was founded by Christians on Christian principles based on the New Testament.  Is that something you want to argue?

[Molly]

Plus - I believe the Patrick Henry quote you gave is bogus (do some research - from what I understand it's not in any of his writings). In fact there is a boatload of false quotes going around by the folks that want to make Christianity the U.S. state religion.

Unconfirmed Quotations 
David Barton - 01/2000 
(This article has created controversy in some quarters; read the background behind the "Unconfirmed Quotations" article controversy.)

The following quotations have been seen and heard in numerous books, periodicals, editorials, speeches, etc. In our research, we have not previously used a quote that was not documented to a source in a manner that would be acceptable in a scholarly work or a university text. However, we strongly believe that the debates surrounding the Founders are too important to apply solely an academic standard. Therefore, we unilaterally initiated within our own works a standard of documentation that would exceed the academic standard and instead would conform to the superior legal standard (i.e., relying solely on primary or original sources, using best evidence, rather than relying on the writings of attorneys, professors, or historians).

It is only in using this much higher standard that we call the following quotes "unconfirmed": that is, while the quotes below have been documented in a completely acceptable fashion for academic works, they are currently "unconfirmed" if relying solely on original sources or sources contemporaneous to the life of the actual individual Founder. These original sources for these quotes may still surface (for example, a major primary document from James Madison surfaced as late as 1946), and in fact you will note that we have actually located the original sources for some to the quotes below that originally we listed as unconfirmed. However, with the remaining quotes listed below, we recommend that you refrain from using them until such time that an original primary source may be found, notwithstanding the fact that the quotes below may be documented to a number of contemporary sources.

One may only speculate as to how these quotes originated. In two cases, the errors appear obvious. In others, there are historical clues and possibilities. In the final analysis, the words in question - despite the fact that they are currently "unconfirmed" in primary source documents - are nevertheless completely consistent not only with the character of these men but also with the character of their era, including U. S. Supreme Court decisions. Nonetheless, for us, only primary documentation will justify pulling these quotes off of the shelf. We offer brief comments where appropriate, to include supporting quotations and citations.

1. It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ! -- Patrick Henry (unconfirmed)

Few could dispute that this quotation is consistent with Henry's life and character. (Interestingly, those who advocate a secular society today view Henry as an arch enemy.) One early biographer describes how Henry reprinted and distributed Soame Jennings book, View of the Internal Evidence of Christianity, 1 and also that Henry looked to the restraining and elevating principles of Christianity as the hope of his country's institutions. 2 Bishop Meade, writing of Virginia families in general, says of Henry that, despite possible periods of alienation, his attachment to the [Episcopal] Church of his fathers is clearly established. 3 In one of many courtroom speeches, Henry offered these thoughts (one need not agree with his ideas to understand the context):


I know, sir, how well it becomes a liberal man and a Christian to forget and forgive. As individuals professing a holy religion, it is our bounden duty to forgive injuries done us as individuals. But when the character of Christian you add the character of patriot, you are in a different situation. Our mild and holy system of religion inculcates an admirable maxim of forbearance. If your enemy smite one cheek, turn the other to him. But you must stop there. You cannot apply this to your country. As members of a social community, this maxim does not apply to you. When you consider injuries done to your country your political duty tells you of vengeance. Forgive as a private man, but never forgive public injuries. Observations of this nature are exceedingly unpleasant, but it is my duty to use them. 4

In a 1796 letter to his daughter Henry stated:


Amongst other strange things said of me, I hear it is said by the deists that I am one of their number; and, indeed, that some good people think I am no Christian. This thought gives me much more pain than the appellation of Tory; because I think religion of infinitely higher importance than politics; and I find much cause to reproach myself that I have lived so long and have given no decided and public proofs of my being a Christian. But, indeed, my dear child, this is a character which I prize far above all this world has, or can boast. 5

Bishop Meade, mentioned above, also describes a letter from Rev. Dresser, who was addressing two Church historians. Concerning Patrick Henry, Dresser wrote:


It is stated, in an article which I saw some time ago, from the Protestant Episcopalian, and, I presume, from one of you, that Patrick Henry was once an infidel, &c. His widow and some of his descendants are residing in this county, and I am authorized by one of them to say that the anecdote related is not true. He ever had, I am informed, a very abhorrence of infidelity, and actually wrote an answer to Paine's Age of Reason, but destroyed it before his death. His widow informed me that he received the Communion as often as an opportunity was offered, and on such occasions always fasted until after he had communicated, and spent the day in the greatest retirement. This he did both while Governor and afterward. Had he lived a few years longer, he would have probably done much to check the immoral influence of one of his compatriots [?], whose works are now diffusing the poison of infidelity throughout our land. 6

Henry's religious persuasion is well-established. However, there is more evidence that should be considered. Biographer William Wirt Henry relates that a visiting neighbor recalled Henry holding up the Bible and stating:


This book is worth all the books that ever were printed, and it has been my misfortune that I have never found time to read it with the proper attention and feeling till lately. I trust in the mercy of Heaven that it is not yet too late. 7

Despite his regret for not having spent more time in the Bible, Henry knew the value of Scripture. Taken together with his efforts while in public life, there is an ample foundation for this excerpt from his Last Will and Testament:


This is all the inheritance I can give my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed. 8

As a final thought, there is a possibility that the unconfirmed quote came from Henry's uncle, the Reverend Patrick Henry. We find no record of the Reverend's letters or writings. Therefore, until more definitive documentation can be presented, please avoid the words in question.

2. It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible. -- George Washington (unconfirmed)

Although the modern secularists avoid his numerous religious maxims, Washington's views on religion are easily documented. He often spoke on religious themes, to include the ruler of nations, the light of Revelation, and the symbiotic relationship between the Church and the state. There is overwhelming evidence to support this thought as belonging to Washington. However, since the quote has not been documented to date, it appears unlikely to be found. Too much research has been done on the life of Washington to see the prospect of a new quotation.

There is a very real possibility that the quotation has its origin in an 1835 biography by James K. Paulding. In a description of Washington's character, with supporting quotations, Paulding declares Washington to have said:


It is impossible to account for the creation of the universe without the agency of a Supreme Being. It is impossible to govern the universe without the aid of a Supreme Being. 9

The similarities are obvious; a paraphrase of these quotes could have easily generated the words in question. However, we have not been able to trace Paulding's cite to a more scholarly reference. He offers no footnotes. For an extensive selection of Washington's religious sayings, see the Maxims of Washington: Political, Social, Moral, and Religious, John F. Schroeder, ed. (Mount Vernon, Virginia: The Mount Vernon Ladies Association, © 1942). (The book has also been reprinted, albeit in a slightly different format. We recommend the older versions.)

3. Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise. In this sense and to this extent, our civilizations and our institutions are emphatically Christian. -- Holy Trinity v. U. S. (Supreme Court) (inaccurate confirmed! -- Richmond v. Moore, Illinois Supreme Court, 1883)

This quotation appeared in many modern works, each attributing the wording to the U. S. Supreme Court's 1892 decision in the Holy Trinity case. After researching and being unable to locate this quote in that case, we concluded that it was probably was a cut-and-paste typographical error, for several of the phrases do appear in that case, 10 but not in the exact wording given above; we therefore at that time recommended that this quote not be used. Now, however, after more than a decade of searching, we have located and confirmed the original source for this quote: it appears not in an 1892 U. S. Supreme Court case 11 but rather in an 1883 Illinois Supreme Court ruling in Richmond v. Moore. 12 While we previously recommended against using this quote, it is now authenticated and can be cited, providing that it is attributed to the proper source.



http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=126

[Paul Hazelwood]

Molly, are you in support of a Christian theocracy in America?

I don't know what a "Christian theocracy" would be.

But I'm in support of this--


"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ."

- Patrick Henry




and this--

The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever."

--Rev 11:15


And this--


Daniel 2:44
"In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever.

Well, what does that mean to you when it would come to running the country?    Would you jail people for having another God before them?

[firstborn888]

Molly,
  Is is beyond dispute that most of the Europeans who first settled here wore some sort of Christian label. What is also beyond dispute is that the founding fathers were smart enough to make sure the government stayed out of religious matters.

The Christian political movement which seeks to unite the government with Christianity is defying the bill of rights, particularly the 1st amendment. They also go on this rampage to keep the 10 commandment engraved granite blocks (which were produced around the country and donated to various cities TO PROMOTE THE MOVIE RELEASE BY THE SAME NAME) in front of courthouses and city halls etc.

Of course this works great for end time conspiracy theory alarmists who see a 666 behind everything that they disagree with. They really need to find a better use of time and resources than trying to tear down a wall which the founders wisely placed right where it belongs.   

[Molly]

Would you jail people for having another God before them?

No of course not.  As you know, our freedom comes from God--for that reason, our rights are unalienable.  Think about the difference between this country [before we started turning into a police state, that is] and Iran, for instance.  That is because our founders read the Bible.

If we do turn into a total police state, it will be because our leaders and the people have turned their backs on our Christian heritage, as the founders well knew, so they spelled it out in the Bill of Rights [which are now being removed from us, one by one, by a lawless generation]--

For the Lord is the Spirit, and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

--2 Cor 3:17

[fire walker]

I will add the the NT gives no indication that earthly governments are to be involved in prayer or enforcing any kind of Christian doctrine/belief at all. Jesus certainly is not recorded viewing the government He was born under in that way. "Render to Caesar that which is  Caesar's and to God that which is God's". A government which supports human and religious freedom WHILE STAYING THE HELL OUT OF OUR PERSONAL BELIEFS is the best possible scenario for people to have. They exist and operate by God's decree and as God's officers whether they know or acknowledge it or not.

Now - oppressive regimes also exist by God's decree but when they violate inalienable human rights they ultimately pay the price and fail miserably. It's a curious system (overall) for sure, but hey - here we are.   :thumbsup:  

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

firstborn888,

 I certainly share in like mindedness with what you have pointed out here, especially a Government that supports human and religious freedom WHILE STAYING  TO HELL OUT OF OUR PERSONAL BELIEFS is the best possible scenario for people to have.

Peace,
Fire Walker

[firstborn888]

Would you jail people for having another God before them?

No of course not.  As you know, our freedom comes from God--for that reason, our rights are unalienable.  Think about the difference between this country [before we started turning into a police state, that is] and Iran, for instance.  That is because our founders read the Bible.

If we do turn into a total police state, it will be because our leaders and the people have turned their backs on our Christian heritage, as the founders well knew, so they spelled it out in the Bill of Rights [which are now being removed from us, one by one, by a lawless generation]--

What in the world are you talking about? Many slave owners read the bible. It's not reading a book which brings justice to the heart. Thomas Jefferson for instance took to heart Jesus' moral teachings but REJECTED the bible's literal miracle stories.

The bill of rights was not given so we wouldn't forget our Christian heritage. It was given so the government couldn't (legally) become oppressive of it's citizens. Christian states do not have a good human rights track record.

Please - just look in the bible itself at how Jesus and Paul viewed the government's role. There is NOTHING there about posting the ten commandments at courthouses or the government backing Christianity. In fact ALL the problems with Christianity started when Constantine made Christianity the official state religion.  :thumbdown:

It's great to site the faith's wonderful influence on people and their ideas. I believe God gave the founders the wisdom to set things up as they are.  :thumbsup:

[jabcat]

When I got ready to post this, I saw what you said Byron about citing faith's influence on people, and I think really that's pretty much exactly what I was getting at while I was posting the following;

Is it possible a big part of what's being missed in our government is what's being missed in society at large - and often within each one of us - the less we love Jesus and live in obedience to God, we reap what we sow?  Not that anything to do with "religion" should be forced legislatively, but that the more we love God and seek Him as a nation/people, the more that influence will be experienced and permeate our individual and collective beings, and will then more "naturally" occur?  I agree we need a righteous and holy everything - including government.  What would things look like if our hearts were truly changed and turned towards God - if things were cleansed from the inside out, not attempted from the outside in?  

Maybe it's how much we seek God and walk humbly before Him.  Not by might, nor by power, but by His Spirit.  His righteous government is coming.  Will it take Is. 26:9 to usher it in?  ["when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness"]    How do we get there?  The fight is Light against darkness and it's fought best on our knees.  

Wouldn't true holiness beget true holiness?   "Yet you must first be continually seeking His Kingdom and the things that are right [and just] according to Him, and all these things will be added to you!"  Matthew 6:33 (CB)  

[Molly]

Please - just look in the bible itself at how Jesus and Paul viewed the government's role.

They were dealing with a pagan government where the ruler considered HIMSELF God.

I can't understand where your fear and hostility is coming from because I'm not advocating anything other than what the founders gave us--which, by the way, we no longer have at this point in time--we do not have a functioning Republic and we do not have a representative government and we do not have moral men in power,--we haven't for at least 100 years-- and yes, the founders put God first, and that makes a difference in how you behave and what type of government you have.  There is a reason why Communism insists on atheism.

Government's role:

...and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


--Isaiah 9:6

[Molly]

 

What is also beyond dispute is that the founding fathers were smart enough to make sure the government stayed out of religious matters.

The founding fathers were a diverse bunch - Christians, diests, agnostics - but ALL understood the problems involved when a government endorses any religious creed.

Who should I believe?  You or them--



John Adams


SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; JUDGE; DIPLOMAT; ONE OF TWO SIGNERS OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; SECOND PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES

The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.1

The Holy Ghost carries on the whole Christian system in this earth. Not a baptism, not a marriage, not a sacrament can be administered but by the Holy Ghost. . . . There is no authority, civil or religious – there can be no legitimate government but what is administered by this Holy Ghost. There can be no salvation without it. All without it is rebellion and perdition, or in more orthodox words damnation.2

Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company: I mean hell.3

Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited. . . . What a Eutopia – what a Paradise would this region be!5

I have examined all religions, and the result is that the Bible is the best book in the world.6


John Quincy Adams


SIXTH PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES; DIPLOMAT; SECRETARY OF STATE; U. S. SENATOR; U. S. REPRESENTATIVE; "OLD MAN ELOQUENT"; "HELL-HOUND OF ABOLITION"

My hopes of a future life are all founded upon the Gospel of Christ and I cannot cavil or quibble away [evade or object to]. . . . the whole tenor of His conduct by which He sometimes positively asserted and at others countenances [permits] His disciples in asserting that He was God.7

The hope of a Christian is inseparable from his faith. Whoever believes in the Divine inspiration of the Holy Scriptures must hope that the religion of Jesus shall prevail throughout the earth. Never since the foundation of the world have the prospects of mankind been more encouraging to that hope than they appear to be at the present time. And may the associated distribution of the Bible proceed and prosper till the Lord shall have made "bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God" [Isaiah 52:10].8

In the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior. The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity.9


Samuel Adams


SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; "FATHER OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION"; RATIFIER OF THE U. S. CONSTITUTION; GOVERNOR OF MASSACHUSETTS


I conceive we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world . . . that the confusions that are and have been among the nations may be overruled by the promoting and speedily bringing in the holy and happy period when the kingdoms of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and the people willingly bow to the scepter of Him who is the Prince of Peace.12



Josiah Bartlett
MILITARY OFFICER; SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; JUDGE; GOVERNOR OF NEW HAMPSHIRE

Called on the people of New Hampshire . . . to confess before God their aggravated transgressions and to implore His pardon and forgiveness through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ . . . that the knowledge of the Gospel of Jesus Christ may be made known to all nations, pure and undefiled religion universally prevail, and the earth be fill with the glory of the Lord.16


Gunning Bedford


MILITARY OFFICER; MEMBER OF THE CONTINENTAL CONGRESS; SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; FEDERAL JUDGE

To the triune God – the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost – be ascribed all honor and dominion, forevermore – Amen.17


Elias Boudinot


PRESIDENT OF CONGRESS; SIGNED THE PEACE TREATY TO END THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION; FIRST ATTORNEY ADMITTED TO THE U. S. SUPREME COURT BAR; FRAMER OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; DIRECTOR OF THE U. S. MINT

Let us enter on this important business under the idea that we are Christians on whom the eyes of the world are now turned... Let us earnestly call and beseech Him, for Christ's sake, to preside in our councils . . . We can only depend on the all powerful influence of the Spirit of God, Whose Divine aid and assistance it becomes us as a Christian people most devoutly to implore. Therefore I move that some minister of the Gospel be requested to attend this Congress every morning . . . in order to open the meeting with prayer.18



Jacob Broom


LEGISLATOR; SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION

A letter to his son, James, attending Princeton University:

I flatter myself you will be what I wish, but don't be so much flatterer as to relax of your application – don't forget to be a Christian. I have said much to you on this head, and I hope an indelible impression is made.21

Charles Carroll


SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; SELECTED AS DELEGATE TO THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION; FRAMER OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; U. S. SENATOR

Grateful to Almighty God for the blessings which, through Jesus Christ Our Lord, He had conferred on my beloved country in her emancipation and on myself in permitting me, under circumstances of mercy, to live to the age of 89 years, and to survive the fiftieth year of independence, adopted by Congress on the 4th of July 1776, which I originally subscribed on the 2d day of August of the same year and of which I am now the last surviving signer.23




Congress, 1854

The great, vital, and conservative element in our system is the belief of our people in the pure doctrines and the divine truths of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.25


Congress, U. S. House Judiciary Committee, 1854

Had the people, during the Revolution, had a suspicion of any attempt to war against Christianity, that Revolution would have been strangled in its cradle... In this age, there can be no substitute for Christianity... That was the religion of the founders of the republic and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants.26


John Dickinson


SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; GOVERNOR OF PENNSYLVANIA; GOVERNOR OF DELAWARE; GENERAL IN THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION

Rendering thanks to my Creator for my existence and station among His works, for my birth in a country enlightened by the Gospel and enjoying freedom, and for all His other kindnesses, to Him I resign myself, humbly confiding in His goodness and in His mercy through Jesus Christ for the events of eternity.27

[Governments] could not give the rights essential to happiness... We claim them from a higher source: from the King of kings, and Lord of all the earth.28


Gabriel Duvall


SOLDIER; JUDGE; SELECTED AS DELEGATE TO THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION; COMPTROLLER OF THE U. S. TREASURY; U. S. SUPREME COURT JUSTICE

I resign my soul into the hands of the Almighty Who gave it, in humble hopes of His mercy through our Savior Jesus Christ.29


Benjamin Franklin


SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION; DIPLOMAT; PRINTER; SCIENTIST; SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; GOVERNOR OF PENNSYLVANIA

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and His religion as He left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see.30



Elbridge Gerry


SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; MEMBER OF THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION; FRAMER OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS, GOVERNOR OF MASSACHUSETTS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES

He called on the State of Massachusetts to pray that . . .

And for our unparalleled ingratitude to that Adorable Being Who has seated us in a land irradiated by the cheering beams of the Gospel of Jesus Christ . . . let us fall prostrate before offended Deity, confess sincerely and penitently our manifold sins and our unworthiness of the least of His Divine favors, fervently implore His pardon through the merits of our mediator.33


Alexander Hamilton


REVOLUTIONARY GENERAL; SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; AUTHOR OF THE FEDERALIST PAPERS; SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY


One other consequence of Hamilton's untimely death was that it permanently halted the formation of a religious society Hamilton had proposed. Hamilton suggested that it be named the Christian Constitutional Society, and listed two goals for its formation: first, the support of the Christian religion; and second, the support of the Constitution of the United States. This organization was to have numerous clubs throughout each state which would meet regularly and work to elect to office those who reflected the goals of the Christian Constitutional Society. 37


John Hancock


SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; PRESIDENT OF CONGRESS; REVOLUTIONARY GENERAL; GOVERNOR OF MASSACHUSETTS

Sensible of the importance of Christian piety and virtue to the order and happiness of a state, I cannot but earnestly commend to you every measure for their support and encouragement.38

He called on the entire state to pray "that universal happiness may be established in the world [and] that all may bow to the scepter of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the whole earth be filled with His glory."39

that the kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ may be established in peace and righteousness among all the nations of the earth.46

. . . . And finally to overrule all the commotions in the world to the spreading the true religion of our Lord Jesus Christ in its purity and power among all the people of the earth.47

John Hart


JUDGE; LEGISLATOR; SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION

Thanks be given unto Almighty God therefore, and knowing that it is appointed for all men once to die and after that the judgment [Hebrews 9:27] . . . principally, I give and recommend my soul into the hands of Almighty God who gave it and my body to the earth to be buried in a decent and Christian like manner . . . to receive the same again at the general resurrection by the mighty power of God.48


Patrick Henry


REVOLUTIONARY GENERAL; LEGISLATOR; "THE VOICE OF LIBERTY"; RATIFIER OF THE U. S. CONSTITUTION; GOVERNOR OF VIRGINIA

Being a Christian... is a character which I prize far above all this world has or can boast.49

The Bible... is a book worth more than all the other books that were ever printed.50

Righteousness alone can exalt America as a nation. Whoever thou art, remember this; and in thy sphere practice virtue thyself, and encourage it in others.51

The great pillars of all government and of social life [are] virtue, morality, and religion. This is the armor, my friend, and this alone, that renders us invincible.52

This is all the inheritance I can give to my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.53


Samuel Huntington


SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; PRESIDENT OF CONGRESS; JUDGE; GOVERNOR OF CONNECTICUT

It becomes a people publicly to acknowledge the over-ruling hand of Divine Providence and their dependence upon the Supreme Being as their Creator and Merciful Preserver . . . and with becoming humility and sincere repentance to supplicate the pardon that we may obtain forgiveness through the merits and mediation of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.54


James Iredell


RATIFIER OF THE U. S. CONSTITUTION; ATTORNEY GENERAL OF NORTH CAROLINA; U. S. SUPREME COURT JUSTICE APPOINTED BY PRESIDENT GEORGE WASHINGTON

For my part, I am free and ready enough to declare that I think the Christian religion is a Divine institution; and I pray to God that I may never forget the precepts of His religion or suffer the appearance of an inconsistency in my principles and practice.55


John Jay


PRESIDENT OF CONGRESS; DIPLOMAT; AUTHOR OF THE FEDERALIST PAPERS; ORIGINAL CHIEF JUSTICE OF THE U. S. SUPREME COURT; GOVERNOR OF NEW YORK

Condescend, merciful Father! to grant as far as proper these imperfect petitions, to accept these inadequate thanksgivings, and to pardon whatever of sin hath mingled in them for the sake of Jesus Christ, our blessed Lord and Savior; unto Whom, with Thee, and the blessed Spirit, ever one God, be rendered all honor and glory, now and forever. 56

Unto Him who is the author and giver of all good, I render sincere and humble thanks for His manifold and unmerited blessings, and especially for our redemption and salvation by His beloved Son. . . . Blessed be His holy name.57

Mercy and grace and favor did come by Jesus Christ, and also that truth which verified the promises and predictions concerning Him and which exposed and corrected the various errors which had been imbibed respecting the Supreme Being, His attributes, laws, and dispensations.58


I recommend a general and public return of praise and thanksgiving to Him from whose goodness these blessings descend. The most effectual means of securing the continuance of our civil and religious liberties is always to remember with reverence and gratitude the source from which they flow.60

The Bible is the best of all books, for it is the word of God and teaches us the way to be happy in this world and in the next. Continue therefore to read it and to regulate your life by its precepts.61

The evidence of the truth of Christianity requires only to be carefully examined to produce conviction in candid minds... they who undertake that task will derive advantages.62

Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation, to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.63


Cont'd....

[Molly]

Thomas Jefferson


SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; DIPLOMAT; GOVERNOR OF VIRGINIA; SECRETARY OF STATE; THIRD PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES

The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man.64

The practice of morality being necessary for the well being of society, He [God] has taken care to impress its precepts so indelibly on our hearts that they shall not be effaced by the subtleties of our brain. We all agree in the obligation of the moral principles of Jesus and nowhere will they be found delivered in greater purity than in His discourses.65

I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others.66

I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ.67


William Samuel Johnson


JUDGE; MEMBER OF THE CONTINENTAL CONGRESS; SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; FRAMER OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; PRESIDENT OF COLUMBIA COLLEGE; U. S. SENATOR

I . . . am endeavoring . . . to attend to my own duty only as a Christian. . . . let us take care that our Christianity, though put to the test . . . be not shaken, and that our love for things really good wax not cold.68

In an address to graduates:

You this day. . . . have, by the favor of Providence and the attention of friends, received a public education, the purpose whereof hath been to qualify you the better to serve your Creator and your country. You have this day invited this audience to witness the progress you have made. . . . Thus you assume the character of scholars, of men, and of citizens. . . . Go, then, . . . and exercise them with diligence, fidelity, and zeal. . . . Your first great duties, you are sensible, are those you owe to Heaven, to your Creator and Redeemer. Let these be ever present to your minds, and exemplified in your lives and conduct. Imprint deep upon your minds the principles of piety towards God, and a reverence and fear of His holy name. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom and its [practice] is everlasting [happiness] . . . . Reflect deeply and often upon [your] relations [with God]. Remember that it is in God you live and move and have your being, – that, in the language of David, He is about your bed and about your path and spieth out all your ways – that there is not a thought in your hearts, nor a word upon your tongues, but lo! He knoweth them altogether, and that He will one day call you to a strict account for all your conduct in this mortal life. Remember, too, that you are the redeemed of the Lord, that you are bought with a price, even the inestimable price of the precious blood of the Son of God. Adore Jehovah, therefore, as your God and your Judge. Love, fear, and serve Him as your Creator, Redeemer, and Sanctifier. Acquaint yourselves with Him in His word and holy ordinances. . . . Go forth into the world firmly resolved neither to be allured by its vanities nor contaminated by its vices, but to run with patience and perseverance, with firmness and [cheerfulness], the glorious career of religion, honor, and virtue. . . . Finally, . . . in the elegant and expressive language are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report, if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things" – and do them, and the God of peace shall be with you, to whose most gracious protection I now commend you, humbly imploring Almighty Goodness that He will be your guardian and your guide, your protector and the rock of your defense, your Savior and your God.69

James Kent


JUDGE; LAW PROFESSOR; "FATHER OF AMERICAN JURISPRUDENCE"

My children, I wish to talk to you. During my early and middle life I was, perhaps, rather skeptical with regard to some of the truths of Christianity. Not that I did not have the utmost respect for religion and always read my Bible, but the doctrine of the atonement was one I never could understand, and I felt inclined to consider as impossible to be received in the way Divines taught it. I believe I was rather inclined to Unitarianism; but of late years my views have altered. I believe in the doctrines of the prayer books as I understand them, and hope to be saved through the merits of Jesus Christ. . . . My object in telling you this is that if anything happens to me, you might know, and perhaps it would console you to remember, that on this point my mind is clear: I rest my hopes of salvation on the Lord Jesus Christ.70


Francis Scott Key


U. S. ATTORNEY FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA; AUTHOR OF THE "STAR SPANGLED BANNER"

May I always hear that you are following the guidance of that blessed Spirit that will lead you into all truth, leaning on that Almighty arm that has been extended to deliver you, trusting only in the only Savior, and going on in your way to Him rejoicing.71


James Madison


SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; AUTHOR OF THE FEDERALIST PAPERS; FRAMER OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; SECRETARY OF STATE; FOURTH PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES

A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest, while we are building ideal monuments of renown and bliss here, we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven.72



James Manning

MEMBER OF THE CONTINENTAL CONGRESS; PRESIDENT OF BROWN UNIVERSITY

I rejoice that the religion of Jesus prevails in your parts; I can tell you the same agreeable news from this quarter. Yesterday I returned from Piscataway in East Jersey, where was held a Baptist annual meeting (I think the largest I ever saw) but much more remarkable still for the Divine influences which God was pleased to grant. Fifteen were baptized; a number during the three days professed to experience a change of heart. Christians were remarkably quickened; multitudes appeared.74


Henry Marchant

MEMBER OF THE CONTINENTAL CONGRESS; ATTORNEY GENERAL OF RHODE ISLAND; RATIFIER OF THE U. S. CONSTITUTION; FEDERAL JUDGE APPOINTED BY PRESIDENT GEORGE WASHINGTON

And may God grant that His grace may really affect your heart with suitable impressions of His goodness. Remember that God made you, that God keeps you alive and preserves you from all harm, and gives you all the powers and the capacity whereby you are able to read of Him and of Jesus Christ, your Savior and Redeemer, and to do every other needful business of life. And while you look around you and see the great privileges and advantages you have above what other children have (of learning to read and write, of being taught the meaning of the great truths of the Bible), you must remember not to be proud on that account but to bless God and be thankful and endeavor in your turn to assist others with the knowledge you may gain.75(to his daughter)


George Mason


DELEGATE AT THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION; "FATHER OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS"

I give and bequeath my soul to Almighty God that gave it me, hoping that through the meritorious death and passion of our Savior and Redeemer Jesus Christ to receive absolution and remission for all my sins.76

My soul I resign into the hands of my Almighty Creator, Whose tender mercies are all over His works. . humbly hoping from His unbounded mercy and benevolence, through the merits of my blessed Savior, a remission of my sins.77


Cont'd

[Molly]

James McHenry


REVOLUTIONARY OFFICER; SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; RATIFIER OF THE U. S. CONSTITUTION; SECRETARY OF WAR UNDER PRESIDENTS GEORGE WASHINGTON AND JOHN ADAMS

Public utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. Without the Bible, in vain do we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions.78

Bibles are strong protections. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience.79


Thomas McKean


SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; PRESIDENT OF CONGRESS; RATIFIER OF THE U. S. CONSTITUTION; CHIEF JUSTICE OF THE SUPREME COURT OF PENNSYLVANIA; GOVERNOR OF PENNSYLVANIA; GOVERNOR OF DELAWARE

In the case Respublica v. John Roberts,80 John Roberts was sentenced to death after a jury found him guilty of treason. Chief Justice McKean then told him:

You will probably have but a short time to live. Before you launch into eternity, it behooves you to improve the time that may be allowed you in this world: it behooves you most seriously to reflect upon your past conduct; to repent of your evil deeds; to be incessant in prayers to the great and merciful God to forgive your manifold transgressions and sins; to teach you to rely upon the merit and passion of a dear Redeemer, and thereby to avoid those regions of sorrow – those doleful shades where peace and rest can never dwell, where even hope cannot enter. It behooves you to seek the [fellowship], advice, and prayers of pious and good men; to be [persistent] at the Throne of Grace, and to learn the way that leadeth to happiness. May you, reflecting upon these things, and pursuing the will of the great Father of light and life, be received into [the] company and society of angels and archangels and the spirits of just men made perfect; and may you be qualified to enter into the joys of Heaven – joys unspeakable and full of glory!81

Gouverneur Morris


REVOLUTIONARY OFFICER; MEMBER OF THE CONTINENTAL CONGRESS; SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; "PENMAN OF THE CONSTITUTION"; DIPLOMAT; U. S. SENATOR

There must be religion. When that ligament is torn, society is disjointed and its members perish... The most important of all lessons is the denunciation of ruin to every state that rejects the precepts of religion.82



Jedidiah Morse


HISTORIAN OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION; EDUCATOR; "FATHER OF AMERICAN GEOGRAPHY"; APPOINTED BY SECRETARY OF STATE TO DOCUMENT CONDITION OF INDIAN AFFAIRS

To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. All efforts made to destroy the foundations of our Holy Religion ultimately tend to the subversion also of our political freedom and happiness. In proportion as the genuine effects of Christianity are diminished in any nation... in the same proportion will the people of that nation recede from the blessings of genuine freedom... Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government – and all the blessings which flow from them – must fall with them. 84


John Morton


LEGISLATOR; JUDGE; SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION

With an awful reverence to the Great Almighty God, Creator of all mankind, being sick and weak in body but of sound mind and memory, thanks be given to Almighty God for the same.85


James Otis


LEADER OF THE SONS OF LIBERTY; ATTORNEY & JURIST; MENTOR OF JOHN HANCOCK AND SAMUEL ADAMS

Has [government] any solid foundation? Any chief cornerstone?... I think it has an everlasting foundation in the unchangeable will of God... The sum of my argument is that civil government is of God.86


Robert Treat Paine


MILITARY CHAPLAIN; SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; ATTORNEY GENERAL OF MASSACHUSETTS; JUDGE

I desire to bless and praise the name of God most high for appointing me my birth in a land of Gospel Light where the glorious tidings of a Savior and of pardon and salvation through Him have been continually sounding in mine ears.87

I am constrained to express my adoration of the Supreme Being, the Author of my existence, in full belief of His Providential goodness and His forgiving mercy revealed to the world through Jesus Christ, through whom I hope for never ending happiness in a future state.88

I believe the Bible to be the written word of God and to contain in it the whole rule of faith and manners.89


William Paterson


ATTORNEY GENERAL OF NEW JERSEY; SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; U. S. SENATOR; GOVERNOR OF NEW JERSEY; U. S. SUPREME COURT JUSTICE

When the righteous rule, the people rejoice; when the wicked rule, the people groan. [invoking Proverbs 29:2 to instruct a grand jury].90


Timothy Pickering


REVOLUTIONARY GENERAL; JUDGE; RATIFIER OF THE U. S. CONSTITUTION; POSTMASTER GENERAL UNDER PRESIDENT GEORGE WASHINGTON; SECRETARY OF WAR UNDER PRESIDENTS GEORGE WASHINGTON AND JOHN ADAMS; SECRETARY OF STATE UNDER PRESIDENT JOHN ADAMS

Pardon, we beseech Thee, all our offences of omission and commission; and grant that in all our thoughts, words, and actions, we may conform to Thy known will manifested in our consciences and in the revelations of Jesus Christ, our Savior.91



Charles Cotesworth Pinckney


REVOLUTIONARY GENERAL; LEGISLATOR; SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; DIPLOMAT

To the eternal and only true God be all honor and glory, now and forever. Amen!93


John Randolph of Roanoke


CONGRESSMAN UNDER PRESIDENTS JOHN ADAMS, THOMAS JEFFERSON, JAMES MADISON, JAMES MONROE, JOHN QUINCY ADAMS, ANDREW JACKSON; U. S. SENATOR; DIPLOMAT



I am at last reconciled to my God and have assurance of His pardon through faith in Christ, against which the very gates of hell cannot prevail. Fear hath been driven out by perfect love.95

I have looked to the Lord Jesus Christ, and hope I have obtained pardon.96

I still cling to the cross of my Redeemer, and with God's aid firmly resolve to lead a life less unworthy of one who calls himself the humble follower of Jesus Christ.97


Benjamin Rush


SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; SURGEON GENERAL OF THE CONTINENTAL ARMY; RATIFIER OF THE U. S. CONSTITUTION; "FATHER OF AMERICAN MEDICINE"; TREASURER OF THE U. S. MINT; "FATHER OF PUBLIC SCHOOLS UNDER THE CONSTITUTION"

The Gospel of Jesus Christ prescribes the wisest rules for just conduct in every situation of life. Happy they who are enabled to obey them in all situations! . . . 98

I do not believe that the Constitution was the offspring of inspiration, but I am as satisfied that it is as much the work of a Divine Providence as any of the miracles recorded in the Old and New Testament.99

By renouncing the Bible, philosophers swing from their moorings upon all moral subjects... It is the only correct map of the human heart that ever has been published.100


The only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government is the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by means of the Bible.102

The great enemy of the salvation of man, in my opinion, never invented a more effective means of limiting Christianity from the world than by persuading mankind that it was improper to read the Bible at schools.103

Christianity is the only true and perfect religion; and... in proportion as mankind adopt its principles and obey its precepts, they will be wise and happy.104

The Bible contains more knowledge necessary to man in his present state than any other book in the world.105

The Bible, when not read in schools, is seldom read in any subsequent period of life... The Bible... should be read in our schools in preference to all other books because it contains the greatest portion of that kind of knowledge which is calculated to produce private and public happiness.106


Roger Sherman


SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION; SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; "MASTER BUILDER OF THE CONSTITUTION"; JUDGE; FRAMER OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; U. S. SENATOR

I believe that there is one only living and true God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, the same in substance, equal in power and glory. That the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are a revelation from God, and a complete rule to direct us how we may glorify and enjoy Him. . . .

God commands all men everywhere to repent. He also commands them to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and has assured us that all who do repent and believe shall be saved... God... has absolutely promised to bestow them on all these who are willing to accept them on the terms of the Gospel – that is, in a way of free grace through the atonement. "Ask and ye shall receive [John 16:24]. Whosoever will, let him come and take of the waters of life freely [Revelation 22:17]. Him that cometh unto me I will in no wise cast out" [John 6:37].108


"The volume which he consulted more than any other was the Bible. It was his custom, at the commencement of every session of Congress, to purchase a copy of the Scriptures, to peruse it daily, and to present it to one of his children on his return."111


Richard Stockton


JUDGE; SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE

As my children will have frequent occasion of perusing this instrument, and may probably be particularly impressed with the last words of their father, I think it proper here not only to subscribe to the entire belief of the great and leading doctrines of the Christian religion, such as the being of God; the universal defection and depravity of human nature; the Divinity of the person and the completeness of the redemption purchased by the blessed Savior; the necessity of the operations of the Divine Spirit; of Divine faith accompanied with an habitual virtuous life; and the universality of the Divine Providence: but also, in the bowels of a father's affection, to exhort and charge [my children] that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, that the way of life held up in the Christian system is calculated for the most complete happiness that can be enjoyed in this mortal state, [and] that all occasions of vice and immorality is injurious either immediately or consequentially – even in this life.112


Thomas Stone


SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; SELECTED AS A DELEGATE TO THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION

Shun all giddy, loose, and wicked company; they will corrupt and lead you into vice and bring you to ruin. Seek the company of sober, virtuous and good people... which will lead [you] to solid happiness.113


Joseph Story


U. S. CONGRESSMAN; "FATHER OF AMERICAN JURISPRUDENCE"; U. S. SUPREME COURT JUSTICE APPOINTED BY PRESIDENT JAMES MADISON

One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law. There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying at its foundations.114

I verily believe that Christianity is necessary to support a civil society and shall ever attend to its institutions and acknowledge its precepts as the pure and natural sources of private and social happiness.115


Caleb Strong


DELEGATE AT THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION TO FRAME THE U. S. CONSTITUTION; RATIFIER OF THE CONSTITUTION; U. S. SENATOR; GOVERNOR OF MASSACHUSETTS

He called on the State of Massachusetts to pray that . . . all nations may know and be obedient to that grace and truth which came by Jesus Christ.116


Zephaniah Swift


U. S. CONGRESSMAN; DIPLOMAT; JUDGE; AUTHOR OF AMERICA'S FIRST LEGAL TEXT (1795)

Jesus Christ has in the clearest manner inculcated those duties which are productive of the highest moral felicity and consistent with all the innocent enjoyments, to which we are impelled by the dictates of nature. Religion, when fairly considered in its genuine simplicity and uncorrupted state, is the source of endless rapture and delight.117


Charles Thomson


SECRETARY OF THE CONTINENTAL CONGRESS; DESIGNER OF THE GREAT SEAL OF THE UNITED STATES; ALONG WITH JOHN HANCOCK, THOMSON WAS ONE OF ONLY TWO FOUNDERS TO SIGN THE INITIAL DRAFT OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE APPROVED BY CONGRESS

I am a Christian. I believe only in the Scriptures, and in Jesus Christ my Savior.118


Jonathan Trumbull


JUDGE; LEGISLATOR; GOVERNOR OF CONNECTICUT; CONFIDANT OF GEORGE WASHINGTON AND CALLED "BROTHER JONATHAN" BY HIM

The examples of holy men teach us that we should seek Him with fasting and prayer, with penitent confession of our sins, and hope in His mercy through Jesus Christ the Great Redeemer.119

Principally and first of all, I bequeath my soul to God the Creator and giver thereof, and my body to the earth to be buried in a decent Christian burial, in firm belief that I shall receive the same again at the general resurrection through the power of Almighty God, and hope of eternal life and happiness through the merits of my dear Redeemer Jesus Christ.120

He called on the State of Connecticut to pray that . . .

God would graciously pour out His Spirit upon us and make the blessed Gospel in His hand effectual to a thorough reformation and general revival of the holy and peaceful religion of Jesus Christ.121

George Washington


JUDGE; MEMBER OF THE CONTINENTAL CONGRESS; COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF OF THE CONTINENTAL ARMY; PRESIDENT OF THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION; FIRST PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES; "FATHER OF HIS COUNTRY"

You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are.122

While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian.123

The blessing and protection of Heaven are at all times necessary but especially so in times of public distress and danger. The General hopes and trusts that every officer and man will endeavor to live and act as becomes a Christian soldier, defending the dearest rights and liberties of his country.124

I now make it my earnest prayer that God would... most graciously be pleased to dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility, and pacific temper of the mind which were the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion.125


Daniel Webster


U. S. SENATOR; SECRETARY OF STATE; "DEFENDER OF THE CONSTITUTION"

The Christian religion – its general principles – must ever be regarded among us as the foundation of civil society.126

Whatever makes men good Christians, makes them good citizens.127

To the free and universal reading of the Bible... men are much indebted for right views of civil liberty.128

The Bible is a book... which teaches man his own individual responsibility, his own dignity, and his equality with his fellow man.129


Noah Webster


REVOLUTIONARY SOLDIER; JUDGE; LEGISLATOR; EDUCATOR; "SCHOOLMASTER TO AMERICA"

The religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and His apostles... This is genuine Christianity and to this we owe our free constitutions of government.130

The moral principles and precepts found in the Scriptures ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws.131

All the... evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.132

Our citizens should early understand that the genuine source of correct republican principles is the Bible, particularly the New Testament, or the Christian religion.133

The Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children under a free government ought to be instructed. No truth is more evident than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.134

The Bible is the chief moral cause of all that is good and the best corrector of all that is evil in human society – the best book for regulating the temporal concerns of men.135

The Christian religion... is the basis, or rather the source, of all genuine freedom in government... I am persuaded that no civil government of a republican form can exist and be durable in which the principles of Christianity have not a controlling influence.136


John Witherspoon


SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; RATIFIER OF THE U. S. CONSTITUTION; PRESIDENT OF PRINCETON

Christ Jesus – the promise of old made unto the fathers, the hope of Israel [Acts 28:20], the light of the world [John 8:12], and the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth [Romans 10:4] – is the only Savior of sinners, in opposition to all false religions and every uninstituted rite; as He Himself says (John 14:6): "I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by Me."137

No man, whatever be his character or whatever be his hope, shall enter into rest unless he be reconciled to God though Jesus Christ.138

There is no salvation in any other than in Jesus Christ of Nazareth.139

I shall now conclude my discourse by preaching this Savior to all who hear me, and entreating you in the most earnest manner to believe in Jesus Christ; for "there is no salvation in any other" [Acts 4:12].140

It is very evident that both the prophets in the Old Testament and the apostles in the New are at great pains to give us a view of the glory and dignity of the person of Christ. With what magnificent titles is He adorned! What glorious attributes are ascribed to him!... All these conspire to teach us that He is truly and properly God – God over all, blessed forever!141

If you are not reconciled to God through Jesus Christ – if you are not clothed with the spotless robe of His righteousness – you must forever perish.142

He is the best friend to American liberty who is the most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down profanity and immorality of every kind. Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy to his country.143


Oliver Wolcott

SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; MILITARY GENERAL; GOVERNOR OF CONNECTICUT

Through various scenes of life, God has sustained me. May He ever be my unfailing friend; may His love cherish my soul; may my heart with gratitude acknowledge His goodness; and may my desires be to Him and to the remembrance of His name....144

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=8755

[firstborn888]

Please - just look in the bible itself at how Jesus and Paul viewed the government's role.

They were dealing with a pagan government where the ruler considered HIMSELF God.

I can't understand where your fear and hostility is coming from because I'm not advocating anything other than what the founders gave us--which, by the way, we no longer have at this point in time--we do not have a functioning Republic and we do not have a representative government and we do not have moral men in power,--we haven't for at least 100 years-- and yes, the founders put God first, and that makes a difference in how you behave and what type of government you have.  There is a reason why Communism insists on atheism.

Government's role:

...and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


--Isaiah 9:6

Molly,
 If you sense fear and hostility coming from me - it is in your mind. My passion and sense (what I am attempting to express) is from history and personal experience. Men in government trying to take upon themselves spiritual responsibility for the faith and beliefs of the citizenry is way out of order. You quote a passage about God's sovereign government and try to apply it to what - the U.S. government? Good luck with that (you'll need it!).

I am not even denying that the far left have a very undesirable personal agenda as well. BOTH extremes are detrimental to our free society. Hopefully the extremes will cancel each other out and cooler heads (moderates) will prevail. That way we can (on the one hand) avoid communism and (on the other hand) avoid a religiously produced Armageddon.  :sigh: