Sheol/Hades

[DC]

Is it really just a metaphor for oblivion/nonexistence?

[WhiteWings]

It's the/a grave.

Is it non existance.....?
It surely is the end of life in this world.

Some on this forum believe the dead are just very dead. -> Body and mind are 'dead'
Others believe we just exit this world and immediately step in the next world (aka afterlife). -> Body is dead. Mind is very much alive.

That's what I understood after reading many posts on a similar question.

[Taffy]

Our Mortal state being Lowered into this realm is HADES - the Place of the DEAD- the same Place the LORD descended into-

Eph 4:9   (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 


Eph 4:10   He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 

Blessings :icon_flower:

[Nathan]

Oh for crying out loud!!  Jeeze Taf . . . all this time and I never made that connection!  I've always preached about the fact that this is the realm of death and decay . . .it never occurred to me . . . this is a dimension of hades/shoel . . .and that he descended to the "lower" parts of death . . .he came to this realm of death, went to the dead in death . . .the lower parts . . .and brought resurrection to all . . .

Gonna have to absorb on that for a while . . .

Can't beleive I didn't see that before!!

[jabcat]

That's interesting.  I thought that verse was about Jesus going to declare to "those disobedient in the days of Noah", when He "led captivity captive" - one of those UR scrips to show salvation after death.  Hmm, maybe you deeper thinkers could explore where/if that all fits together.   Or maybe the 2 Peter verse stands on its own, while the Ephesians verse is only part of that equation, while really mostly talking about what you said Taf? 

[Taffy]

That's interesting.  I thought that verse was about Jesus going to declare to "those disobedient in the days of Noah", when He "led captivity captive" - one of those UR scrips to show salvation after death.  Hmm, maybe you deeper thinkers could explore where/if that all fits together.   Or maybe the 2 Peter verse stands on its own, while the Ephesians verse is only part of that equation, while really mostly talking about what you said Taf?

Mike vinson [ who too believes all will be saved]  shares some intersting  points -ill post this Jab as its quite to long a subject to post in One mail

http://www.iswasandwillbe.com/Angels_spirits_Rev_12.php

[micah7:9]

Our Mortal state being Lowered into this realm is HADES - the Place of the DEAD- the same Place the LORD descended into-

Eph 4:9   (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 


Eph 4:10   He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 

Blessings :icon_flower:

:thumbsup: :bigGrin:

[Nathan]

That's interesting.  I thought that verse was about Jesus going to declare to "those disobedient in the days of Noah", when He "led captivity captive" - one of those UR scrips to show salvation after death.  Hmm, maybe you deeper thinkers could explore where/if that all fits together.   Or maybe the 2 Peter verse stands on its own, while the Ephesians verse is only part of that equation, while really mostly talking about what you said Taf?

Mike vinson [ who too believes all will be saved]  shares some intersting  points -ill post this Jab as its quite to long a subject to post in One mail

http://www.iswasandwillbe.com/Angels_spirits_Rev_12.php

I read several articles on this guy's web pages and at first glance, he sounded pretty solid . . .but the more I read, the less interested I became.  I even found one article where he's dissing Gary and those at Tent.   He says most of what Gary believes is unScriptural.  He's a strong advocate of the devil and demons, but he is just as adamant about the fact that what went down in Genesis 6 was not a spiritual activity but it was the Sons of Seth sleeping with the daughters of Cain . . .I'd heard that before, just not to this extent.  i did like his take on some of that though . . .it was very interesting.  But I have a hard time swallowing most of his other stuff.  He's against holy laughter, speaking in tongues . . .the more Pentecostal doctrines I guess. 

[Taffy]

That's interesting.  I thought that verse was about Jesus going to declare to "those disobedient in the days of Noah", when He "led captivity captive" - one of those UR scrips to show salvation after death.  Hmm, maybe you deeper thinkers could explore where/if that all fits together.   Or maybe the 2 Peter verse stands on its own, while the Ephesians verse is only part of that equation, while really mostly talking about what you said Taf?

Mike vinson [ who too believes all will be saved]  shares some intersting  points -ill post this Jab as its quite to long a subject to post in One mail

http://www.iswasandwillbe.com/Angels_spirits_Rev_12.php

I read several articles on this guy's web pages and at first glance, he sounded pretty solid . . .but the more I read, the less interested I became.  I even found one article where he's dissing Gary and those at Tent.   He says most of what Gary believes is unScriptural.  He's a strong advocate of the devil and demons, but he is just as adamant about the fact that what went down in Genesis 6 was not a spiritual activity but it was the Sons of Seth sleeping with the daughters of Cain . . .I'd heard that before, just not to this extent.  i did like his take on some of that though . . .it was very interesting.  But I have a hard time swallowing most of his other stuff.  He's against holy laughter, speaking in tongues . . .the more Pentecostal doctrines I guess.

Ive Known Mike for some years Nathan -ones led to sift out what doesnt sit-

He comes from a very legalistic Background - WWCG- alas Our old Church too some 17 yrs ago might one add :icon_flower:

[Nathan]

Yeah . . . you can still see a lot of that in his writings.

[DC]

Reasons why I think that Sheol/Hades is just a metaphors for oblivion:

ECCLESIASTES 9:10 (NRSV)

            Whatever your hand finds to do, do with your might; for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in sheol, to which you are going.


ECCLESIASTES 9:5 (NRSV)

            The living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing.

SALM 146:4 (KJV)

            His breath goeth forth, he (his body) returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Therefore, Sheol is not really a place, but a state of being.  I believe that all those "ghosts" out there are really just demons trying to deceive people. 

There are just a few things that still confuse me on this.

-The Bible seems to imply that the "ghost" of Samuel that Saul spoke to really was Samuel.  Is there any biblical evidence that it may have really been a demon in disguise?

-Isaiah 8:19 also seems to contradict this, "When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?"

Anyone want to try to tackle these for me?  It's just that the idea that Sheol is just a metaphore for oblivion makes me feel very peaceful, because we know that everyone will be freed from it.

[Nathan]

I've gotten into some discussions pertaining to the Saul/Samuel incident and the other individual felt that Samuel was actually a demon disguising itself as Samuel . . .I adamantly disagreed then as I still do now.  I've also argued what you've not done here but I'll challenge you to give thought to it anyway . . .and that is . . .if you are believing hades is a metaphor, why not take the next stip and see demons are not what we've been taught they're to be as well?

Here's my take on all of it . . . it's not metaphors so much as it is "dimensions".  On one level I can easily see hades to literally be where dead people go after their physical lives end in this realm.  But on an "inward" level, I see hades is also the spiritual condition of those who've not yet come into resurrection life of the Father through Christ.

It's the same with demons . . .I've gotten myself into many a conversations trying to explain the idea that they are actually extensions of human thought.  The problem is, Scripture seems to be pretty plain about their literal existance. 

I believe WE ALL are in constant transition in our understanding of the kingdom concepts and principles.  I believe as we mature in Chirst, it becomes easier for us to let go of things our "minds' have embraced and let the Spirit reveal to us deeper things that natural minds just can't seem to comprehend.  We have the unique ability to live in bodies of flesh and yet walk in the spirit at the same time. 

Problem is, this isn't something easily done because our minds have been conditioned to be in "operation" in the natural realm but when dealing with the spiritual, the operations of our natural mind no longer are effective because in 'this" place, we're to be led by our spirit, not by our flesh.

Sooooo  . . .when you see hades being a metaphor, that's your minds way of "trying" to explain naturally what your "inner" eyes are seeing spiritually.  God is taking you into a new dimension.  All I can say is what I've learned, don't disregard the literal, but don't let the literal distract you from the spiritual.  Embrace what God is giving you in these hard-to-put-into-words issues and he'll open up even more -hardER-to explain truths of his nature as well.