How long does it take to get saved?
Is someone saved by speaking a formulated prayer?
The impression given and taught by at least the fundumentalists, is exactly that.
So I ask, are all those people seen at those large cathedrals and seen on TV, are they all saved?
We can only be saved if the Holy Spirit draws us, and God gives us faith to respond in belief.
The jailer asked, "sirs, what must I do to be saved?" Paul said "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved..." Acts 16:30,31
Other places say "whosoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved", "believe in your heart and confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and that God raised Him from the dead, and you will be saved".
Technically, the process of being drawn, being given faith to believe, and believing/calling on Jesus for salvation (being spiritually reborn from above) could take a few seconds. It seems Saul's conversion was so. On the other hand, for instance, I was probably drawn and convicted numerous times and resisted over a period of months before the Lord "won". :) But that "moment" of salvation was seconds or minutes.
No formulated prayer required, unless that's all the person knows to do. However God allows us to have the faith to believe, then that's the "right way" - crying in desperation, silently believing and trusting, or praying a "formulated prayer", if that's the best one knows to do.
Is everyone seen in cathedrals/on T.V. saved? I doubt it, but that's not for me to judge. That's between them and God. I believe many have a head knowledge or sort of go along for the ride, or pretend, etc., but have never really believed/trusted Him as Savior/turned to Him for salvation - "head vs. heart". According to our Lord's words though, many will claim great accomplishments in His name, and He will say He never knew them.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 18, 2011, 06:22:59 AM
How long does it take to get saved?
Is someone saved by speaking a formulated prayer?
Nope.
You must confess with your :HeartThrob:
That's much more than a prayer that could be a lie from A-Z
QuoteThe impression given and taught by at least the fundumentalists, is exactly that.
So I ask, are all those people seen at those large cathedrals and seen on TV, are they all saved?
Saved from what? Death? Hell? LoF? ....?
Jesus already payed to the last cent. So that part was covered even before you were born.
Okay, I guess my question falls into the thought of "once saved always saved." When a person gets "saved" just what is that?
Example: I went to a revival last night and at least 50 souls got saved.
Now just what does that mean?
How did they get "saved" at that revival?
Or is getting "saved" at that revival, just a foot in the door to getting "saved?" How does one get saved at all?
Many believe a person, once truly saved, can "do the wrong things", or "fail to do the right things", and lose their salvation.
I don't believe so. Salvation is by grace, not works, and the "gifts and calling of God are irrevocable" Rom. 11:29.
I believe being saved is that personal time of visitation by the Holy Spirit ("conviction" of sin and awareness of the need for a Savior), then just as the scriptures lay it out, the person responds in faith, belief, trust in Jesus the Savior. I believe even the faith to respond is given by God, because "in ourselves we can do nothing".
What does saved mean? We enter into a personal relationship with God through His Son, Jesus. The Holy Spirit begins to regenerate us from the inside out ("behold, old things are passing away, all things are becoming new"). We are spiritually reborn. Our nature, though not perfect (that's ongoing, sanctification, overcoming) is turned toward God, where our desires become to please our Father, and His Spirit works in us to move us in that direction. Jesus said "marvel not when I say you must be born again". We are no longer "dead in our trespasses and sins". The process of living IN the Father has begun.
Ephesians 2:1
And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins,
2 wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience;
3 among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:--
4 but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved)
Jab, I believe you hit the nail on the head with Eph.2:5 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved)
And Paul confirms in verse 8 how man gets "saved."
Eph 2:8 For it is by grace that you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves. It is God's gift, and is not on the ground of merit--
WNT
It is by "grace" more it is God's grace.
Quote from: jabcat on August 18, 2011, 08:27:19 PM
What does saved mean? We enter into a personal relationship with God through His Son, Jesus.
WHAT are we saved from?
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 18, 2011, 09:45:42 PM
Quote from: jabcat on August 18, 2011, 08:27:19 PM
What does saved mean? We enter into a personal relationship with God through His Son, Jesus.
WHAT are we saved from?
From the paw of the lion and the paw of the bear. From death and destruction. He just saved me again. Thanks for your prayer, Jab.
6Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.[Psa 23]
Eph 2:8 For it is by grace that you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves. It is God's gift, and is not on the ground of merit--
WNT
Grace H2580 chên graciousness, Gen 6:8 And Noah found grace in the eyes of Jehovah.
It was by God's Grace that Noah was able to build the ark.
Grace G5485 charis graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life;
Grace a : unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification
b : a virtue coming from God
VIRTUE a : conformity to a standard of right : morality
VIRTUE G1411 dunamis force (literally or figuratively); specifically miraculous power (usually by implication a miracle itself): - ability, abundance, meaning, might (-ily, -y, -y deed), (worker of) miracle (-s), power, strength, violence, mighty (wonderful) work. From G1410 dunamai to be able or possible: - be able, can (do, + -not), could, may, might, be possible, be of power.
Act 1:8 but ye shall receive power..same as virtue...dunamis. Im told we get our word dynamite from dunamis. It is by God's Grace His Virtue His Power that we are able to work be saved.
Php 2:12 So that, my beloved, as ye always obey, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, with fear and trembling your own salvation work out,
Php 2:13 for God it is who is working in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
Saved by Grace SAVED G4982 sōzō a primary word; to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole. Grace is the engine(the gift of God) that starts us thinking and reasoning good thoughts and things in this life, it is God working in man to be delivered, healed, made whole, saved... Grace is God's viture(force) working in man. Grace in turn causes the engine of repentance going and you start to "think differntly." We are a work in prorgess.
Joh 5:30 I, cannot be doing, of myself, a single thing,—Just as I hear, I judge; and, my judging, is, just,—because I seek not my own will, but the will of him that sent me.
I can now humbly confess I truly understand this verse by Paul.
2Co 12:9 And at once he said unto me—Sufficient for thee, is my favour, for, my power, in weakness, is made complete. Most gladly, therefore, will I rather boast in my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may spread a tent over me.
When the time is right, He comes for us.
And, when he comes for you, you will not miss it.
Quote from: MicahGrace in turn causes the engine of repentance going and you start to "think differntly." We are a work in prorgess.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 18, 2011, 06:22:59 AM
How long does it take to get saved?
Is someone saved by speaking a formulated prayer?
The impression given and taught by at least the fundumentalists, is exactly that.
So I ask, are all those people seen at those large cathedrals and seen on TV, are they all saved?
Depends on the thickness of the head.
For me, it takes as long as it takes my head to realize what already happened.
Quote from: Nathan on August 19, 2011, 02:19:18 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 18, 2011, 06:22:59 AM
How long does it take to get saved?
Is someone saved by speaking a formulated prayer?
The impression given and taught by at least the fundumentalists, is exactly that.
So I ask, are all those people seen at those large cathedrals and seen on TV, are they all saved?
Depends on the thickness of the head.
For me, it takes as long as it takes my head to realize what already happened.
Has nothing to do with your head or may head or any ones head.
Quote from: jabcat on August 18, 2011, 08:27:19 PM
We are no longer "dead in our trespasses and sins". The process of living IN the Father has begun.
Welcome for prayers, Molly. :)
Amen micah, it's HIS grace.
Once the above process has begun, then I believe we're treated as sons. Nothing we can do will either earn or disqualify us regarding our salvation, i.e., being His son. Hebrews 12:2 says
He both BEGINS and COMPLETES our salvation.
Even disobedient sons are still His sons. It is then dealt with as a family matter. It's the process of our hearts continually being turned toward our Father.
"And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? "My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him....For the Lord..chastises every son whom he receives." Heb. 12:5,6
Blessings.
Quote from: jabcat on August 19, 2011, 06:18:21 AM
Quote from: jabcat on August 18, 2011, 08:27:19 PM
We are no longer "dead in our trespasses and sins". The process of living IN the Father has begun.
Welcome for prayers, Molly. :)
Amen micah, it's HIS grace.
Once the above process has begun, then I believe we're treated as sons. Nothing we can do will either earn or disqualify us regarding our salvation, i.e., being His son. Hebrews 12:2 says He both BEGINS and COMPLETES our salvation.
Even disobedient sons are still His sons. It is then dealt with as a family matter. It's the process of our hearts continually being turned toward our Father.
"And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? "My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him....For the Lord..chastises every son whom he receives." Heb. 12:5,6
Blessings.
AMEN my friend AMEN! Hebrews 12:2 says
He both BEGINS and COMPLETES our salvation. :bigGrin: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :thumbsup:
That was my point Micah . . . when I say it depends on the thickness of my head, that means it depends on how long it takes me to REALIZE what's ALREADY DONE.
Okay, staying with the post topic, How long does it take to get saved, and I don't mean head saved or however.
For instance this guy has been going to church and he believes, should he walk out the door of his Sunday morning church
and die right there on the threshold, what would happen to him... was he saved? where did he go? Heaven?
I would offer that he was not saved.
If he were not saved, where did he go?
Aint that jest like in to mine question? :winkgrin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ec6xT9ixGE&feature=related
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 26, 2011, 04:41:06 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ec6xT9ixGE&feature=related
Ill watch this but let it be known I am not a youtube fan in the least!
Well I tryed but for some reason my streaming well it takes 10 min to watch a 1min:20 sec clip.
Me either, Micah.
Very little gets past my sword, it turns every which way.
Reply with quote
"Beloved Servant
Gold
"If he were not saved, where did he go?"
Where does everyone go when they die?
The man who walks in the dark does not know where he is going.
Unless the man in the dark has been there before.
Jesus said, "I am with you for only a short time, and then I go to the One who sent me."
Moved
Your post has two separate and distinct questions.
One humble request is answered:
42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
It doesn't appear to take long at all.
IMO The instant faith is kindled in the heart, salvation, which is deliverance from spiritual death, occurs(zoe life is kindled in the spirit). Yet, I believe only God knows the secrets of the heart, and some who think they are 'saved', aren't, and some who might not know they are, 'are'. Paul wrote to Timothy, the seal of God is this, the Lord knows those that are His and let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity. But who was walking in iniquity? The Samaritan man whose religion was despised by the Jews, yet he stopped and helped the wounded man by the road?- Or the Pharisee and the Levite, who were "clothed in the Word" but had no time for the man? Jesus told that parable in order to teach us not to look on the outward appearance, but to judge righteous judgment. As John put it, "He that loves knows God and is known by God. He that does not loves walks in darkness still." Tat's why we ought not go on judging before the time. Since the word "saved" (sozo Grk) means healed, delivered, made whole..... I think our religious presumptions have informed our concepts, just like with ET and many other things- we may need to look again at what it really means to be "saved".
Yup!
I think it goes even further than that! Not only redefine what "saved" is, but also what "love" is. Redefining love forces me to redefine what "faith" is . .. which redefines saved, forgiveness, repentance, It's a domino affect that leads to an entire paradigm shift . .. are we ready for "that" kind of changing???
Quote from: Nathan on August 26, 2011, 04:33:45 PM
I think it goes even further than that! Not only redefine what "saved" is, but also what "love" is. Redefining love forces me to redefine what "faith" is . .. which redefines saved, forgiveness, repentance, It's a domino affect that leads to an entire paradigm shift . .. are we ready for "that" kind of changing???
Amen!
He saved me again.
He saved me from wind
He saved me from rain
He saved me from the hurricane!
:icon_king:
Moved here.
Okay, staying with the post topic, How long does it take to get saved, and I don't mean head saved or however.
For instance this guy has been going to church and he believes, should he walk out the door of his Sunday morning church
and die right there on the threshold, what would happen to him... was he saved? where did he go? Heaven?
I would offer that he was not saved.
was he saved? No. Mat 10:22 And you shall be hated by all because of My name. Yet he who endures to the consummation, he shall be saved." Mat 24:13 Yet he who endures to the consummation, he shall be saved."
where did he go? The grave, dust. Gen 3:19 by the sweat of thy face thou dost eat bread till thy return unto the ground, for out of it hast thou been taken, for dust thou art , and unto dust thou turnest back.' Ecc 12:7 And the dust returneth to the earth as it was, And the spirit returneth to God who gave it.
Did he go to heaven? No. Act 2:34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, yet he is saying, 'Said the Lord to my Lord, "Sit at My right"
Act 2:35 Till I should be placing Thine enemies for a footstool for Thy feet."'"
Joh 3:13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down--the Son of Man who is in the heaven.
We are not saved, healed, made whole, preserved Until..... we are being saved, and should we endure to the end, then we will be saved..
:HeartThrob:
Micah, you need to stop hanging out with Solomon.
That is a secular book. All is vanity, there's nothing new under the sun--without God.
With God, it's a different story.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 26, 2011, 11:49:55 PM
Moved here.
Okay, staying with the post topic, How long does it take to get saved, and I don't mean head saved or however.
For instance this guy has been going to church and he believes, should he walk out the door of his Sunday morning church
and die right there on the threshold, what would happen to him... was he saved? where did he go? Heaven?
I would offer that he was not saved.
was he saved? No. Mat 10:22 And you shall be hated by all because of My name. Yet he who endures to the consummation, he shall be saved." Mat 24:13 Yet he who endures to the consummation, he shall be saved."
We are not saved, healed, made whole, preserved Until..... we are being saved, and should we endure to the end, then we will be saved..
:HeartThrob:
I see it very differently than that.
We're told how we're spiritually reborn from above/saved (quoted in my first post in this thread). It's not by "enduring to the end", at least under our effort. That would be works based, which salvation is not. It's by being called by the Holy Spirit, and being given faith to believe on Jesus as Savior.
Two things to look at about "enduring to the end". Who was Jesus talking to, and about what? I'd suggest He was either talking about to the end [consummation] of that age (which ended at the cross, and completely obliterated at 70 AD), and/or
when one
does "endure to the end" in
this age (grace) it's not because they worked hard enough to earn it. God has an elect that
He ensures will remain His into the next age. That's why it says He is the Author and Finisher (Completer) of our salvation. Once spiritually reborn, when we fail, even turn away - He doesn't reject or consider us bastards - because we're not. We're in His family, and He treats us as a family member. Never letting go, disciplining us as sons, to turn our heart back to Him. Once spiritually reborn and the process of growing in grace and knowledge (maturity, sanctification) has begun, then it's treated as a family matter.
Whom the Lord loves He chastens. Right now, today, I absolutely COULD NOT decide, "well, I'm not going to be spiritually reborn anymore. I'll just go do whatever I want, I'll curse God, and live like the devil and for the devil". Guess what? It wouldn't work. I'd do that about 10 seconds and the Holy Spirit would convict me. Then I'd either confess my sin and turn back, or God would keep on ratcheting up the intensity until He got my attention.
John 3:16 whosoever BELIEVES, HAS
(John 5:24; Romans 8:32-36)
"Verily, Verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me, hath
everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life."
"He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him freely
give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth."
(Romans 8:32-33)
"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast
out.... And this is the will of him that sent me, that everyone which seeth the son, and believeth on him,
may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day." Jn. 6:37,40
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me, and I give unto them eternal life;
and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave
them to me is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." Jn 10:27-29
God, Who Began a Work Will Complete it. (Philippians 1:6)
"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it
until the day of Jesus Christ."
no conceivable thing or experience can ever separate us from
God. Romans 8 (vs. 35-39).
The Believer Is Sealed By the Holy Spirit. (II Cor. 1:22; Eph. 1:13; 4:30)
"And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."
(I Peter 1:4-5; Jude 24) "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to
be revealed at the last time." "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you
faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy."
I hope the above is helpful. :HeartThrob:
"We're told how we're spiritually reborn from above/saved (quoted in my first post in this thread). It's not by "enduring to the end", at least under our effort. That would be works based, which salvation is not. It's by being called by the Holy Spirit, and being given faith to believe on Jesus as Savior."
So if we do not " endures to the consummation, he shall be saved." so should you not endure, you'll be saved anyway?
Yes we get there by the Holy Spirit, but He uses US to bring it through. Also, what about this, Jas 2:17 so also the faith, if it may not have works, is dead by itself. thru 26?
As far as who was He talking to: Mat 24:1 And having gone forth, Jesus departed from the temple, and his disciples came near to show him the buildings of the temple,
Mat 24:2 and Jesus said to them, `Do ye not see all these? verily I say to you, There may not be left here a stone upon a stone, that shall not be thrown down.'
Mat 24:3 And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what is the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'
"in this age (grace)"??? I believe God's Grace has been here with mankind since, Gen. 3:6 at least since Gen. 6:8
"Once spiritually reborn, when we fail, even turn away..." there you said it your self, spiritually reborn.fall away EVEN turn away we certainly cant be "saved" can we?
And you continue to agree, "He doesn't reject or consider us bastards - because we're not. We're in His family, and He treats us as a family member. Never letting go, disciplining us as sons, to turn our heart back to Him. Once spiritually reborn and the process of growing in grace and knowledge (maturity, sanctification) has begun, then it's treated as a family matter.
Are you not saying that mankind is not "saved, made whole, healed, preserved" YET? If He is still working the process, then does that not mean, IT AINT FINISHED YET?"
"Whom the Lord loves He chastens. Right now, today, I absolutely COULD NOT decide, "well, I'm not going to be spiritually reborn anymore. I'll just go do whatever I want, I'll curse God, and live like the devil and for the devil". Guess what? It wouldn't work. I'd do that about 10 seconds and the Holy Spirit would convict me. Then I'd either confess my sin and turn back, or God would keep on ratcheting up the intensity until He got my attention." EXACTLY!
God, Who Began a Work Will Complete it. (Philippians 1:6)
"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it
until the day of Jesus Christ."
So then mankind is NOT SAVED yet. It is a work begun by God and He will complete it.
Again.....Mat 10:22 And ye will be hated by all, because of my name,—but, he that endureth throughout, the same, shall be saved.
You're right. Mankind is not saved yet. Only the elect are. "...the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption".
The rest of mankind comes later.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 27, 2011, 12:49:15 AM
Again.....Mat 10:22 And ye will be hated by all, because of my name,—but, he that endureth throughout, the same, shall be saved.
"Again" - who was He talking to and about what? Who? The end of what?
And even if it were to the end of THIS age, there are too many scriptures (Pauline, who wrote to US, the nations) that say it's God that ensures our endurance. Not works.
Yes, I call this the age of grace. If you don't like that term, then "post-cross" is the same thing. Pre-cross, Law. Post-cross, grace.
Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega--the Beginning and End--the First and the Last.
End: G5056 telos From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid): - + continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost.
Mat 10:22 and ye shall be hated by all because of my name, but he who hath endured to the end, he shall be saved.
End: G5056
"..that say it's God that ensures our endurance. Not works." Yes I totally agree, but He does not do it without YOU. And when He does with you, are there not WORKS? I did not say, that it is by OUR works, but there sure are works. Yes?
Do we not have to wait till the END to be saved? And dont we have to endure through works that could be detrimental to our body? Works that could only be completed by faith?
Hey I have to leave for the weekend Ill get back Sunday evening Lord permitting.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 27, 2011, 01:11:16 AM
Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega--the Beginning and End--the First and the Last.
End: G5056 telos From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid): - + continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost.
Mat 10:22 and ye shall be hated by all because of my name, but he who hath endured to the end, he shall be saved.
End: G5056
"..that say it's God that ensures our endurance. Not works." Yes I totally agree, but He does not do it without YOU. And when He does with you, are there not WORKS? I did not say, that it is by OUR works, but there sure are works. Yes?
Do we not have to wait till the END to be saved? And dont we have to endure through works that could be detrimental to our body? Works that could only be completed by faith?
Hey I have to leave for the weekend Ill get back Sunday evening Lord permitting.
Brother micah, with this particular piece of it, no, we're not that far apart. :) I believe there will be works, brought about
from our faith and empowered BY Him - a result of the relationship that's begun through the new spiritual birth (getting saved) - which scripture tells us how that happens [second post in this thread].
Sure, I guess we could say He ultimately "completes" our salvation when we stand before Him, but IMO, that's not in question for those whom He has already saved. Again, it's a family matter, and there may be a few things to clear up with Dad at that time. :) Maybe we could also say it's FULLY finished when He is All in All. But again, I was saved, spiritually reborn when He visited me with the Holy Spirit and gave me faith to call on Him and believe on Him. The process of growing in grace and knowledge, sanctification, failing, Him tapping me on the shoulder, picking me back up, etc., is now an ongoing, life-long one. He's already sealed me with His Spirit (thanks be to God, nothing of my own) and though I feel very unworthy, am His son. But through His grace I'm saved, spiritually reborn. As the old song says, "I was there when it happened, and I guess I ought to know". :) Perfect? No way. Spiritually reborn, feet set on the Path? Thank God, yes. And He'll keep me there/keep bringing me back. ***Also, yes, I agree though, it certainly does work better when we're obedient, willing to yield to Him. It goes better that way, less spankings! :)
Have a great weekend, I'm going to post a long post that may be helpful (it was to me). God bless, James.
First of all, I know it's ultimately not up to me what people believe. :bigGrin:
Secondly, I'm surely no great expert. However, there a few things I believe are important to consider when quoting from different parts of the Bible – especially when quoting what Jesus said to the Jews pre-cross, and what Paul said to us, the nations. Also in that mix is that James was writing solely to Jewish Christians, new converts out of Judaism.
**Important scrip for context; But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
This from www.centralcal.com explains the James/Paul thing in greater detail, with scriptural comparisons;
James makes it clear in the opening verses that this book was meant specifically for Jewish Christians. It is therefore not a general epistle for all Christians, but it is specifically and intentionally written solely for "the Twelve tribes scattered abroad", and as such it is not a book which Gentile Christians can glean sound doctrine from without a thorough understanding of 1st century Jewish culture and theology. Below are the passages that have caused so much confusion throughout church history because, unlike the writings of Paul, a superficial reading without understanding the background that they come from, doesn't convey a clear understanding of salvation through faith in the same way as Paul's writings.
-----------------
**CHART COMPARING TRANSLATIONS OF JAMES' VERSES. It's just down from top of page: http://www.centralcal.com/christ4a.htm
-----------------
These passages, at first glance, might seem to suggest that we're not actually Saved by faith alone but that "Works" play a part in salvation. Because of this misunderstanding of what was written, different denominations have based their salvation theology on these passages and concluded different things:
The Jehovah's Witnesses conclude that we're Saved by "faith", but unless we add Good Works to the faith we will lose our salvation, for what will determine our ultimately gaining Heaven will be God's reviewing our earthly Works at the Last Judgment and (hopefully) declaring them to be righteous.
The Mormons--along with many other denominations--conclude that we're Saved by faith plus Good Works (i.e. obedience to the commandments).
The Catholics conclude we're Saved by grace, and that grace produces faith infused with Good Works in the life of the believer, and that these works, done under the unction of the Holy Spirit, are counted by God as righteous acts of atonement for our misdeeds.
Now you see how this one book has caused innumerable problems amongst denominations for many years. To deal with the confusion, we must determine something: Do the writings of Paul and James agree with each other or do they contradict each other?
Since true Bible scripture must harmonize without contradicting itself, James' idea of salvation must not contradict Paul's; they must be in agreement. Either both must believe we're Saved by faith, or both must believe we're Saved by Works, or both must believe we're Saved by a combination of faith plus Works. If they disagree, then either the book of James or the writings of Paul fail the test of inerrancy and must be removed from the New Testament.
This is exactly what Martin Luther wrestled with. He concluded that the writings of James were anti-Paul, and thought that James should be dropped from the Bible altogether. If Luther was correct, then he would be right--James' one book must go in favor of Paul's 12 or 13. But for the sake of argument, let's assume both James and Paul were writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Both must therefore be in agreement. If they are in agreement than we should arrive at the same conclusions by reading the writings of either man. So first let us determine whether James and Paul believe that we're Saved by faith, Works, or a combination thereof. To do this, let's completely remove all the writings of Paul from the Bible and adapt our salvation theology solely from the writings of James. What would we conclude from the above passages? Well, since the book of James is small and does not fully develop a variety of Christian theology we'd still be left with a confusing series of statements which, by themselves, would leave us arguing over whether or not we are Saved by faith, by good Works, or by good Works plus faith because the book of James, by itself, isn't abundantly clear on the issue.
Now remove the book of James from the Bible and reference only the writings of Paul. Over and over again--in Romans, Galatians, Ephesians--Paul never retreats from one central theme of salvation: that it is the free gift of God, obtained through faith alone, without relying on good deeds or blind obedience to a set of rules and regulations, and thus is granted freely apart from anything we can do to merit it. It is impossible to read the books of Paul, by themselves, and conclude that Works play a direct part, rather than a peripheral role, in our salvation, as teach the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. Only by adding a misunderstanding of the writings of James by forcibly interpreting everything Paul wrote through the philosophies of James' one book, rather than by interpreting James one book through Paul's 12, can you reach the false salvation doctrine they arrive at.
In fact, once you accept the truth of Paul's idea of salvation, and you read the passages in James in the light of Paul's writings and not at superficial face value, you discover that James is ultimately agreeing with Paul that we're Saved from sin by faith! The confusion occurs because James and Paul, while they use similar terminology, such as "justified", are writing about different subjects to different groups. Paul is usually writing to Gentiles who have come out of paganism to embrace Christ, or else to Jews outside of Palestine who have grown up in a theological environment of legalism, and thus he intentionally outlines, over and over again, the true formula of salvation, making clear that it is by faith, apart from obeying commandments or doing good deeds. James, however, is writing solely to Jews, who from infancy have been raised with the Scriptures and knew what they taught...who were likely impacted by the ministry of John the Baptist...who may have heard the teachings of Christ Himself...and who had enjoyed the benefit of at least 15 years of Apostolic teaching. Believers such as this were held to a higher standard than the Gentile or Jewish converts outside of Palestine, and reasonably were expected by now to show the proper fruits of true salvation based on the teaching they would have received. His reason for writing is not, as in the case of Paul, to outline the formula of salvation, adding the need for Works which Paul apparently fails to convey clearly (remember James was writing to educated Jewish converts, who presumably already knew the basis of soul-saving salvation was God's forgiveness of sin through blood atonement achieved by faith in Messiah's sacrifice); what he's actually doing is illustrating what sort of faith actually Saves a person by rebuking hypocrites in the church who claimed to have faith in Christ as Messiah but yet had no visible evidence of that faith in their lives. This to James marked them as Christians in name only, just as Jesus rebuked hypocrites within the Pharisee movement who, while they obeyed every commandment of God they could find, lacked the light and love of God in their lives on a practical level. James understood that true Christians should display the love of God in their lives by their actions, but while these so-called believers paid lip service to Christianity, their lifestyles weren't adding up. James is thus doing no differently than Paul, in the book of 1st Corinthians, who is rebuking the church for tolerating open sin in the fellowship. He is, however, coming at the subject on a slightly different path than Paul, emphasizing that true faith demonstrates itself by a change in lifestyle and that, absent this evidence by what he calls "Works", the sort of faith had by the individual obviously lacks the ability to actually Save the person from God's wrath.
How to Scripturally Study the Scriptures By Adlai Loudy
This must be read knowing, dealing with two aspects, Law-Grace = Moses-Christ = Peter-Paul = earthly home-spiritual home =
So Many ways to say this, it makes it hard to say, Israel's PEOPLE IS DIFFERENT FROM THE NEW CREATION IN Christ....
RELIGION AND SALVATION
Red is Prior to Acts 28:28 Green is after the door is locked to Israel
The way the terms religion and salvation are confused in the mind of believers today, is deplorable beyond expression. The term "religion" has been pervertedly popularized to cover much that is absolutely unknown to the word in Scripture. The term thrêskia, ritual, occurs four times ( James 1:26-27; Acts 26:5 ;Col 2:18 ) and thrêskos, ritualist, once ( James 1:26). Ritual denotes the outward form of divine service, such as the rites and ceremonies, ordinances and statutes of the sacerdotal system given through Moses ( Lev. 26:43,46; Num. 9:3; 36:13) while a ritualist is one who conforms to and practices this ritual. The Scriptures also use the words religion ( Acts 25:19) and religious ( Acts 17:22). They are derived from the Greek deisidaimoni , which literally means DREAD-DEMONISM , and denotes the superstitious veneration and worship of demons through dread and fear. Compare 1 Cor. 10:20
On the other hand, the Scriptures use the word sōtêria, salvation, many times, the basic meaning of which is rescue from injury or evil for safety and security. The gospel is God's power for salvation---spiritual rescue or redemption from sin with security until the day of deliverance---to every one who is believing ( Rom1:16-17; Eph 1:13-14; 4:30 and is the gift of God (Rom. 4:2-5 ;Eph. 2:8-9).
re printed with permission
**Important scrip for context; But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
This from www.centralcal.com explains the James/Paul thing in greater detail, with scriptural comparisons;
this is from last post
I personally believe that your whole system of belief would change if you read the works of Adlai Loudy
How to Scripturally Study the Scriptures
and Gospel of our Salvation
These were the best best books I ever read. Concordant Publishing Concern - Concordant Literal Bible
Quote from: HartleyIrvinDamboiseII on August 27, 2011, 04:45:18 AM
**Important scrip for context; But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
This from www.centralcal.com explains the James/Paul thing in greater detail, with scriptural comparisons;
this is from last post
I personally believe that your whole system of belief would change if you read the works of Adlai Loudy
How to Scripturally Study the Scriptures
and Gospel of our Salvation
These were the best best books I ever read. Concordant Publishing Concern - Concordant Literal Bible
Not sure if the "you" is me, but since it's my quote I'll respond.
I of course believe parts of what he teaches, other parts I don't agree with, as I believe he "stretches" away from
some truths of the scriptures. I don't believe in "Inclusion". Although it's
only by God's grace and empowerment, I believe in believing unto salvation. Loudy liked to reference the Apostle Paul. Paul said in Acts 16:31 "believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved".
Quote from: jabcat on August 27, 2011, 04:54:48 AM
Quote from: HartleyIrvinDamboiseII on August 27, 2011, 04:45:18 AM
**Important scrip for context; But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
This from www.centralcal.com explains the James/Paul thing in greater detail, with scriptural comparisons;
this is from last post
I personally believe that your whole system of belief would change if you read the works of Adlai Loudy
How to Scripturally Study the Scriptures
and Gospel of our Salvation
These were the best best books I ever read. Concordant Publishing Concern - Concordant Literal Bible
Not sure if the "you" is me, but since it's my quote I'll respond.
I of course believe parts of what he teaches, other parts I don't agree with, as I believe he "stretches" away from some truths of the scriptures. I don't believe in "Inclusion". Although it's only by God's grace and empowerment, I believe in believing unto salvation. Loudy liked to reference the Apostle Paul. Paul said in Acts 16:31 "believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved".
thank you for being Kind with your words and I too don't believe all Loudy Teaches , Note, Paul's Acts 16:31 was part of his last plea to the Jews to be saved through the Promise Promised to them, His chosen people . It all ended at Acts 28:28 then the door was locked and he started teaching grace only.
Salvation is for Jews and Jews only. All other people are "saved" if you will . because God saves through the one just act of His Son, done and over. Hitler ( if he is not a Jew) ha ha , and all the other hated people in history are saved ( or made right with God) Justified= ( Just as if they never sinned )and will be apart of God's dwelling place when God sees fit. I personally don't care at what age: eon it comes in. We will all be there.....
Hope I don't offend no one. It is IMO
Although I don't see it quite that way, I know you do, and as you, appreciate how you said it. :bigGrin:
I think it can be real subtle, hairs can be split, and we can almost just look for how we think it is or want it to be. I know some teach the faith OF Jesus, as if it's all (for lack of a better term) "one-sided". That Jesus died, rose again, that's it.
But if looked at again carefully, I believe we do see several things. Yes, there a faith OF Jesus. In fact, I personally maintain ALL faith is of God. We don't have any, or can conjure up any on our own. It must be given us, even to be able to believe with in the first place. But again, looking real closely, there's this;
Romans 3:22-26 "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of [there's the OF] Jesus Christ< [but here's the other part] unto all and upon all them that believe:< then again, all the next part is solely about JESUS; for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation (appeasing sacrifice) through faith in his blood [actually I missed that, FAITH IN] to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him [all great, but now this again] which believeth in Jesus."
Did we do it? No, Jesus did. Can we believe it unless we're drawn and enabled? No, no one can come unless drawn, and "everyone is given a measure of faith", and all will be empowered to exercise it, "each in his own order".
Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works lest any man should boast."
There can be no legitimate boasting, except in the cross of Christ and God's glory. We cannot be saved by our own righteousness, but only by God's grace, through faith - that He gives! :)
Ephesians 1:13-14 "In whom [not 'what'] ye also trusted, after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that you believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."
We can't boast, it's all about Him. Still, something happens! that's, IMO, more than just hearing about WHAT He did. When it's our turn, and we're convicted/drawn, we will be given the faith TO BELIEVE IN Him, not just ABOUT Him. The devils believe and tremble. They know exactly what He did, they just don't KNOW Him relationally, as in spiritually reborn from above. They are His enemy. Those who are born from above are now called His friends.
Quote from: HDThe Scriptures also use the words religion ( Acts 25:19) and religious ( Acts 17:22). They are derived from the Greek deisidaimoni , which literally means DREAD-DEMONISM , and denotes the superstitious veneration and worship of demons through dread and fear
That's an eye opener. Thanks. I knew this but had forgotten it.
Now I'm wondering, were these religions designed to lead people astray or did it just work out that way?
Thats the message of genesis i think..... "did God say....?
...collective thoughts in the invisible realm.
Molly
the above quote of mine from HtSSS is cut and paste form and there is errors in it. It was written may decades ago. I wont call it a lie but, when you look up the exact words there refer to words that need more deeeeeep study. cause you have to follow the root words to come up with dread demonism, So you may want to do a little work of your own be fore quoting it.
Quote from: jabcat on August 27, 2011, 06:04:57 AM
Did we do it? No, Jesus did. Can we believe it unless we're drawn and enabled? No, no one can come unless drawn, and "everyone is given a measure of faith", and all will be empowered to exercise it, "each in his own order".
Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works lest any man should boast."
There can be no legitimate boasting, except in the cross of Christ and God's glory. We cannot be saved by our own righteousness, but only by God's grace, through faith - that He gives! :)
Ephesians 1:13-14 "In whom [not 'what'] ye also trusted, after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that you believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."
We can't boast, it's all about Him. Still, something happens! that's, IMO, more than just hearing about WHAT He did. When it's our turn, and we're convicted/drawn, we will be given the faith TO BELIEVE IN Him, not just ABOUT Him. The devils believe and tremble. They know exactly what He did, they just don't KNOW Him relationally, as in spiritually reborn from above. They are His enemy. Those who are born from above are now called His friends.
IMO, Most Excellent!
:thumbsup:
Good, I was worried. :laughing7:
Quote from: Molly on August 27, 2011, 07:39:57 AM
Quote from: HDThe Scriptures also use the words religion ( Acts 25:19) and religious ( Acts 17:22). They are derived from the Greek deisidaimoni , which literally means DREAD-DEMONISM , and denotes the superstitious veneration and worship of demons through dread and fear
That's an eye opener. Thanks. I knew this but had forgotten it.
Now I'm wondering, were these religions designed to lead people astray or did it just work out that way?
This pretty much gives you from where the religion came to be. There's more I'm sure.
Lev 18:3 According to the deeds of the land of Egypt in which you dwelt, you shall not behave. And according to the deeds of the land of Canaan where I am bringing you,
you shall not behave; and by their statutes you shall not walk.(
But they did anyway.)
Deu 18:9 When you come to the land that Yahweh your Elohim is giving to you,
you shall not learn to act according to the abhorrences of those nations.
Deu 18:10 There shall not be found among you one causing his son or his daughter to pass through fire, or one divining divinations, or consulting clouds, auguring or enchantin.
Deu 18:11 or charming with charms, one asking of a medium or wizard or inquiring after the dead.
(But they did anyway.)
Jer 10:1 Hear you the word, O house of Israel, That Yahweh has spoken for you."
Jer 10:2 Thus said Yahweh:
Unto the way of the nations accustom not yourselves, And by the signs of the heavens be not affrighted, For the nations are affrighted by them."(But they did anyway.)
Psa_119:160 The sum of Thy word is truth, And to the age is every judgment of Thy righteousness!
That Psalm 119:150 tells me the SUM [that's all] of God's word is truth.
"Technically, the process of being drawn, being given faith to believe, and believing/calling on Jesus for salvation (being spiritually reborn from above) could take a few seconds. It seems Saul's conversion was so. On the other hand, for instance, I was probably drawn and convicted numerous times and resisted over a period of months before the Lord "won". :) But that "moment" of salvation was seconds or minutes." Jabcat
"(being spiritually reborn from above) " This is what beign saved is? Being "born anew" by the Spirit is being "saved?"
"But that "moment" of salvation was seconds or minutes."
Okay why then did Paul teach us this:
Php 3:11 If by any means I may advance to the earlier resurrection, which is from among the dead:
Php 3:12 Not that I have, already, received, or have, already, reached perfection, but I am pressing on—if I may even lay hold of that for which I have also been laid hold of by Christ Jesus:—
Php 3:13 Brethren! I, as to myself, reckon that I have, not yet, laid hold; one thing, however,—the things behind, forgetting, and, unto the things before, eagerly reaching out,
Php 3:14 With the goal in view, I press on for the prize of the upward calling of God in Christ Jesus.
It does not read to me, that he [was saved] but more like Paul was in the process of being saved, IF he keeps going until the End, Omega, the Z.
We have been given the "earnest"(pledge) of the Spirit 2Co 1:22 who also sealed us, and gave the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
"You're right. Mankind is not saved yet. Only the elect are.
"...the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption".
The rest of mankind comes later.(Jabcat)
Seems to me this reads like there is a lot we have to do and not do to get to verse 30 and would [this be an example of works?]
Eph 4:26 be angry and do not sin; let not the sun go down upon your wrath,
Eph 4:27 neither give place to the devil;
Eph 4:22 ye are to put off concerning the former behaviour the old man, that is corrupt according to the desires of the deceit,
Eph 4:23 and to be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
Eph 4:24 and to put on the new man, which, according to God, was created in righteousness and kindness of the truth.
Eph 4:25 Wherefore, putting away the lying, speak truth each with his neighbour, because we are members one of another;
Eph 4:26 be angry and do not sin; let not the sun go down upon your wrath,
Eph 4:27 neither give place to the devil;
Eph 4:28 whoso is stealing let him no more steal, but rather let him labour, working the thing that is good with the hands, that he may have to impart to him having need.
Eph 4:29 Let no corrupt word out of your mouth go forth, but what is good unto the needful building up, that it may give grace to the hearers;
Eph 4:30 and make not sorrowful the Holy Spirit of God, in which ye were sealed to a day of redemption.
Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil-speaking, be put away from you, with all malice,
Eph 4:32 and become one to another kind, tender-hearted, forgiving one another, according as also God in Christ did forgive you.
"Mankind is not saved yet. Only the elect are."
I dont believe "only the elect are "saved," at least not yet. As far as I understand it, MANY are CALLED[elecsia] FEW are CHOSEN.
These "chosen" I reason are or will be the" elect," but they are not SAVED (past tense), they WILL BE saved should they be in the first resurrection.
Php 3:11 If by any means I may advance to the earlier resurrection, which is from among the dead:
We were saved when the incorruptible seed was planted in our heart, we are being saved through progressive sanctification, we will be saved at the resurrection, (the first resurrection, if we are overcomers) :2c:
micah, I believe most if not all of what Jesus said was primarily to the Jews prior to the cross and their judgment of 70 AD, not primarily to us, the nations. Many of the principles apply spiritually, but (I can't always do it) I believe we have to rightly divide those things, looking at the context, who was primarily being addressed and about what. IMO, if we don't, it will only bring confusion. Looking at "many called, few chosen" in its context can bring a much different meaning.
Paul said to us, the nations, the gentiles, to whom the gospel came after the Jews lost their place of privilege in judgment, that we are saved by grace NOT works.
We could probably discuss this til the cows come home, but until we look at who was being primarily addressed and about what, then we're going to have 2 different denominations . :laughing7:.
I can't always rightly divide it, I mix it up sometimes, but I'm trying to learn.
Blessings brother.
Quote from: eaglesway on August 29, 2011, 03:46:34 AM
We were saved when the incorruptible seed was planted in our heart, we are being saved through progressive sanctification, we will be saved at the resurrection, (the first resurrection, if we are overcomers) :2c:
AMEN!
Quote from: eaglesway on August 29, 2011, 03:46:34 AM
We were saved when the incorruptible seed was planted in our heart, we are being saved through progressive sanctification, we will be saved at the resurrection, (the first resurrection, if we are overcomers) :2c:
"We were saved when the incorruptible seed was planted in our heart,.."
Should this be true, then why the need for the later part of what you said? I mean "We "
were saved" why would we have to go through a process?
And again "we
were saved" whats getting saved at the first resurrection?2Co 1:22 who also sealed us, and
gave the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. Eph 4:30 and make not sorrowful the Holy Spirit of God, in which ye were sealed
to a day of redemption.
Blessed are the dead,who die in the Lord from now on
Yes,says the Spirit,they will rest from their labour,for their deeds will follow them
Jeremiah 32;10 buy my feild at Ananthoth.....'I SIGNED AND SEALED THE DEED,HAD IT WITTNESSED..AND WEIGHED OUT THE SILVER
ON THE SCALES....I TOOK THE DEED OF PURCHASE....THE SEALED COPY.......CONTAINING THE TREMS AND CONDITIONS.........,
AS WELL AS THE UNSEALED COPY...........THIS IS WHAT THE LORD ALMIGHTY,THE GOD OF ISRAEL SAYS;
TAKE THESE DOCUMENTS BOTH THE SEALED AND THE UNSEALED COPIES OF THE DEED OF PURCHASE;
AND PUT THEM IN A CLAY JAR SO THEY WILL LAST A LONG TIME. FOR THIS IS WHAT THE LORD ALMIGHTY,THE GOD OF ISRAEL SAYS
HOUSES FIELDS AND VINEYARDS WILL AGAIN BE BOUGHT IN THIS LAND.....
v 44 Fields will be bought for silver[30 pieces?] and deeds will be signed sealed and wittnessed.........
Heb 11:13 In faith died all these, not having received the promises, but from afar having seen them, and having been persuaded, and having saluted them , and having confessed that strangers and sojourners they are upon the earth,
Heb 11:14 for those saying such things make manifest that they seek a country;
Micah, when Israel come into the promised land it was battle by battle...so too, us coming into our spiritual inheritance. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: sheila on August 29, 2011, 04:42:44 AM
Micah, when Israel come into the promised land it was battle by battle...so too, us coming into our spiritual inheritance. :HeartThrob:
AMEN! :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Quote from: eaglesway on August 29, 2011, 03:46:34 AM
We were saved when the incorruptible seed was planted in our heart, we are being saved through progressive sanctification, we will be saved at the resurrection, (the first resurrection, if we are overcomers) :2c:
I "amen'd" this. Since then I've been doing some further study tonight. I've come up with some pretty exciting things, that go right along with this quite well. The information I eventually post will be quite long, but here's a quick "hint";
it has to do with the initial salvation of the
spirit, what you describe as "the incorruptible seed planted in our heart" John, and what I've been stressing as the ecclesia being saved now, the elect, which cannot be lost. When made part of the family, sealed with the Holy Spirit, he/she cannot ever become NOT part of the family.
Another piece of it though, is that the
soul is in the process of being saved through this life - through sanctification, learning through our trials and tribulations, yielding to Him and His will (yes, works!) -
yet those works must still be His works through us, empowering us,
or else it's filthy rags! But if we're rebellious, resist, demand to go our own way, refuse His ongoing Lordship, then the
soul can be lost. But it's NOT THE SAME as the
spirit becoming lost, that again, was saved forever when His incorruptible seed was placed in us. It has to do with
rewards, position of service, ruling and reigning with Christ, and retaining the parts of us that overcame, that survived the fire of testing. It has to do with Paul saying he delivered the one over to satan, so his works would be burned but his spirit would be saved.
Then the final piece is the saving of the
body at resurrection - obviously,
future tense. To be obtained when we're given immortality, when corruption takes on incorruption.
So as you said John, the elect are saved now (our spirit) by believing on Jesus as Savior. That's it. That's done, not to be reversed. But we're BEING saved (soul) through obedience, maturity, growth, overcoming - earning a position of closeness to the throne, to rule and reign WITH Christ. Not just "out of punishment" [that's the spirit saved] but actually
in His presence, being fellow workers, joint heirs, ruling and reigning from the throne with Jesus. Then finally, our body WILL BE saved, when we're given immortality, the other side of the grade.
3 stages. Stage 1 (spirit) at time of belief and forever sealed for the believer, called out by the Holy Spirit, non-revocable, the elect predestined before time; stage 2 (soul) now and ongoing, but may not happen for many believers who just choose to "slip in", "riding on grace's coat-tails", who resist His leading, and who do not follow the path of sanctification and being purified in this life; and stage 3, future, (body) when we become immortal.
I still have questions about this, but what I've found may clear up some things for me. We'll see. I'll post the background info for this, and it may be good for further discussion, self-reflection, and further seeking of God's way.
Blessings, James.
P.S. John, I just realized. The Hebrews 10 verse you quoted earlier that I sort of "stumbled over" says, "THE PRESERVATION OF THE
SOUL FROM DESTRUCTION!" I really wondered about the 'soul' part of it, but couldn't quite get my head around it. Wow. You think there's something here John? It really is much of what we've both been saying, but sort of puts it in neater, more understandable "packages". Rightly dividing the Word of truth? What do you think?
I've seen Cardinal mention this 3 stage process before (spirit, soul, body salvation) and I believe Thomas J. Kissinger writes about it. But it had never come so close to really crystalizing for me like it seems to be. It may also answer a pretty specific question for me that I may share about later.
Quote from: jabcat on August 29, 2011, 04:21:45 AM
micah, I believe most if not all of what Jesus said was primarily to the Jews prior to the cross and their judgment of 70 AD, not primarily to us, the nations.
That's a bit odd because:
A] Jews don't read the NT.
B] Most of the NT was written after 70AD meaning the teachings reached the Jews to late. Not to mention that writing something is the same a spreading it large scale.
C] 70AD has past long ago. For both Jew and Gentile. Does that mean a large part of the NT has become useless? Do we need a mini NT?
James I'm well aware you aren't promoting cutting out half of the pages of the NT; but in a way you are...
Many want to dump the whole OT so don't feel bad :laughing7:
Quote from: jabcat on August 29, 2011, 08:47:07 AM
Then the final piece is the saving of the body at resurrection - obviously, future tense. To be obtained when we're given immortality, when corruption takes on incorruption.
Which verse?
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 29, 2011, 09:05:59 AM
Quote from: jabcat on August 29, 2011, 04:21:45 AM
micah, I believe most if not all of what Jesus said was primarily to the Jews prior to the cross and their judgment of 70 AD, not primarily to us, the nations.
That's a bit odd because:
A] Jews don't read the NT.
B] Most of the NT was written after 70AD meaning the teachings reached the Jews to late. Not to mention that writing something is the same a spreading it large scale.
C] 70AD has past long ago. For both Jew and Gentile. Does that mean a large part of the NT has become useless? Do we need a mini NT?
James I'm well aware you aren't promoting cutting out half of the pages of the NT; but in a way you are...
Many want to dump the whole OT so don't feel bad :laughing7:
All that's written is for our learning (the Jews not reading NT is because they are still mostly blinded [I. Cor. 3:14] They can't see Messiah in the OT, so they don't read the New). Anyway, as I understand, what Jesus
said, verbally spoke, He did so primarily to the Jews. Look at the context of the "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel". A gentile woman was trying to get Jesus to do something for her. At first He either didn't or barely responded to her. Then He said "what have I to do with you"? Finally, she "kept after" Him, and He gave her what she wanted. This is the context though of "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel".
That's why I said though the spiritual principles apply. It's ALL still for our learning and growth. For instance, should we be meek? I think so. But primarily, when Jesus said that, who was he talking to, and what would they inherit? I'm not saying it's easy, or always clear-cut. However, I do believe if we don't try to make the distinction and just throw it all in a basket, shake it up, and see what comes to the top and then use that for our doctrine (I've done it many times, and out of ignorance, mess up the "rightly dividing" part too) then much confusion occurs. IMO, it's just something to be really aware of, and attempt to rightly divide it. Of course as you know, there are ages, periods of God's working and dealings. Israel primarily for awhile (pre-cross), now primarily the gentiles (nations) (post-cross) when that time has "fully come in", then God will turn back to Israel; "and so all Israel shall be saved". Romans 11:26
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 29, 2011, 09:12:03 AM
Quote from: jabcat on August 29, 2011, 08:47:07 AM
Then the final piece is the saving of the body at resurrection - obviously, future tense. To be obtained when we're given immortality, when corruption takes on incorruption.
Which verse?
I believe several (have a long post to edit and arrange), but one is I Cor. 15:54 - Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die, this Scripture will be fulfilled: "Death is swallowed up in victory.
another connected, same passage; vs. 53 - For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies.
I expected that. Well it's verse with a twist :winkgrin:
KJV+1Cor 15
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Tense-Aorist
The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar
action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without
regard for past, present, or future time. There is no
direct or clear English equivalent for this tense, though it is
generally rendered as a simple past tense in most translations.
The events described by the aorist tense are classified into a
number of categories by grammarians. The most common of these
include a view of the action as having begun from a certain
point ("inceptive aorist"), or having ended at a certain point
("cumulative aorist"), or merely existing at a certain point
("punctiliar aorist"). The categorization of other cases can
be found in Greek reference grammars.
The English reader need not concern himself with most of these
finer points concerning the aorist tense, since in most cases
they cannot be rendered accurately in English translation,
being fine points of Greek exegesis only. The common practice
of rendering an aorist by a simple English past tense should
suffice in most cases.
There is a lot more going on in this verse. It's a huge mix of future and past tense. Active and passive. Facts and possibilities.
All purely looking at the grammar.
So possibly it already started.
:bigGrin: Maybe already started, I'm not sure. One thing I've thought is, anything future with God is the same as already done anyway (in a sense - because it WILL happen - and all you really smart people say God exists outside of time anyway, right? lol) So anyway, yes, maybe already started, to be completed.
Here's another part of the Great Big Post :laughing7: that's coming, about the body part of it.
"The third part of man is his body, which allows him to be in contact with the physical realm. Man is incomplete without all three parts. Those who think that man will live in a blissful state when he no longer has a body are ignorant of the Scriptures. The salvation of a Christian's body is entirely future, and it is guaranteed to occur at the resurrection.
(Rom 8:23 KJV) And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."
Remember now that I am the one who believes as the Bible teaches that mankind is a 1)body[formed dust] and
2) spirit[breath] that= makes up a living/breathing creature, man/adam a living soul.
I thought about that brother. However, maybe there's something here that will help move our understanding along. Maybe so, maybe not. I'm not fully, 100% convinced of every aspect of this either, but I think there are some things beneficial here to be gleaned. We'll see. :)
Hebrews 9:28
(ASV) so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation.
(CLV) thus Christ also, being offered once for the bearing of the sins of many, will be seen a second time, by those awaiting Him, apart from sin, for salvation, through faith."
(KJV) So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
(Rotherham) Thus, the Christ also, once for all having been offered, for the bearing of the sins, of many, a second time, apart from sin, will appear, to them who for him are ardently waiting—unto salvation.
(WNT) so the Christ also, having been once offered in sacrifice in order that He might bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, separated from sin, to those who are eagerly expecting Him, to make their salvation complete.
(YLT) so also the Christ, once having been offered to bear the sins of many, a second time, apart from a sin-offering, shall appear, to those waiting for him--to salvation!
Does'nt quite read that they are already saved, they are waiting(ardently) until/unto.
So are you saying "no one" is saved yet? That salvation is only to come at the end of the world?
Quote from: Nathan on August 29, 2011, 11:35:22 PMSo are you saying "no one" is saved yet? That salvation is only to come at the end of the world?
The verse is very vague about that....
Those that are looking for Him
now will see Him a second time in the
future.
That's how I read the verse when I zoom in a bit on the Greek tenses used.
But as I said, the verse doesn't give any useful info because the future begins a split second from now and never ends.
So this verse supports everybodies view :winkgrin:
IMO, that's why much more than one verse needs to be looked at. I can't do it, but ALL the verses reconcile, if proper context, who and what's being addressed, etc. is considered.
It seems to me there is salvation of the spirit that is clear, indisputable, and sealed for those who are given faith to believe now, then other things being saved/ to be completed.
Quote from: jabcat on August 30, 2011, 12:11:20 AM
IMO, that's why much more than one verse needs to be looked at.
True. One verse was quoted, and I just replied that verse is useless for determining time.
QuoteIt seems to me there is salvation of the spirit that is clear, indisputable, and sealed for those who are given faith to believe now
That is what the verse is clear about. They will see Jesus. It's stated as a fact.
Quote, then other things being saved/ to be completed.
Yep. But there is zero proof for that in
this verse.
It's forbidden to add or take away from the Bible as whole. But personally I think the same applies to a single verse. It opens a way to speculation. Which is very good to learn from but also a death trap that leads to doctrines based on words not written....
:2c:
No disagreement, just good for all to consider, IMO. :thumbsup:
Context is everything.
"He that believes has passed from death into life." That's Jesus, and it is so simple. It is the foundation.
"He that endures to the end shall be saved". That's Jesus too, and it is not as simple, but it can't possibly cancel out the first verse, because there are so many others that go with it like;
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
And-
Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--
And
Act 2:47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.
And
2Co 2:15 For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing;
Even when Paul speaks of delivering someone over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, because of some egregious sin, it is "That the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus". Everything is unto salvation. If they werent "saved"- in the house of faith- there would be no discipline, because we do not judge them that are without, according to Paul. And to incur such discipline the sin must be, IMO, deliberate and of extreme nature, not the failures of believers struggling with the flesh in things like addictions or faults and character flaws.
When we believe we pass from death into life- that is zoe life, aionian life.
Then as we abide in Christ and grow as disciples, progressive sanctification happens as our relationship with the Lord deepens and trials and tribulations mature us.
If we reject discipleship and resist the maturation process, the Father disciplines us for our own good, that we might release this life and draw nigh unto God. Our "salvation" such as has been already accomplished is still intact but our "salvation" such as is still awaiting us may be frustrated, for example, deliverance from character flaws that do not glorify God and cause havoc in our lives. If we persist in such as Paul calls "wood, hay and stubble" we might lose our reward. This is in my opinion to do with the benefits of our sonship inheritance, and the beauty of being used by God.
I think Ananias and Saphira were "saved" even tho they were disciplined severely for their offense. Saved Christians do stupid, sinful, harmful things to one another all the time, and sometimes they suffer the discipline of God for it.
In the end everyone will be saved- "each in his own order". IMO, These rewards and losses are more about where in the "order" we will experience and participate in the restoration of all things- and ONLY GOD KNOWs the secrets or our hearts.
Fantastic John. Thanks for the good word.
Note - I am NOT saying this is 100% without question exact doctrine. I do think it has a lot of merit, some good potential for learning, and good for discussion. :thumbsup:
Information from various sources, including C Miclaus and L Mize
Intro: The Word of God speaks about the salvation of man in three tenses: past, present, and future. Christians have been saved; Christians are being saved; and Christians will be saved. In Ephesians 2:8,9 of the Holy Bible, salvation is described as being a past, completed act. 1 Corinthians 1:18 states that salvation is a present, continuous work; and in Hebrews 1:14, salvation is an inherited possession for the future:
We already know from the Bible that in order to have access to Heaven/New Jerusalem, a person must be saved. Now, usually, when we say that a person was saved, we mean that person accepted Christ into his life. Now, let me say that even though you were saved (at a specific time and place), you are still in the process of salvation. Your spirit is saved, but some other parts of you are not yet saved. The Bible says: "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21) Yes, that is true, your soul is not saved yet!
Salvation takes place in three times: past, present and future. You were saved (that is your spirit) when you admitted you are a sinner and accepted Jesus as your personal Savor; that was in the past. You are in the process of salvation, now, in the present (salvation of the soul). And, you will be saved in the future, when God will completely take away sin from you (that is your body).
You might say, well, I think my soul is saved. I want to ask you to reconsider that. All those bad thoughts about your neighbor, wife, husband, parents, somebody from the church – do they come out of a saved soul??? I don't think so! When you hate somebody – is that the proof of a saved soul? Is everything that your mind thinks and your heart feels proof of salvation? Not in my case, at least! John, the apostle, says in 1 John 3:9, that "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." Well, you say, 'I am saved', 'I am a child of God', but the Bible says what is born of God cannot sin.
Do you sin? I do. What does that mean? Before answering, let me tell you that in this particular verse, John is referring to our spirit. Our spirit that was born from God cannot sin. And that is so true, your spirit and mine cannot sin. Why? Because it was born from God. It is His seed – and His seed cannot sin. In order to see what is not saved yet, just think of the sources of sin in yourself. One of them is your soul. Loving in a way we're not supposed to, hating others – just show us how sinful our soul is. And if something is sinful, that something needs salvation, it needs to be changed by God.
The Bible calls the salvation of the soul, sanctification. To sanctify means to make something that is sinful into a saint; it means to be "set apart" for God, for His service. This is the process through which the believer is gradually set away from sin, and becomes more and more dedicated to the standard of God's righteousness. Titus 2:14 makes that so clear: "Who gave himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." This process takes place every day, every moment, until God will decide to move us to His glory.
In the Bible, we see three different aspects of sanctification:
1. The instantly sanctification is the position the believer receives in front of God the moment he accepts Jesus through faith. 1 Corinthians 6:11: "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." This is you position before God.
2. Progressive sanctification is the process of a man growing in righteousness; it is what "takes us ever higher" and "releases us ever more from under the power of sin." 2 Corinthians 7:1b: "...let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." The New Testament doesn't have any shortcut to sanctification; it only encourages us to just dedicate to the old-fashioned but honored reading of the Bible and to meditate, pray, worship, [yield/submit to God's will] and self-discipline ourselves. This is your spiritual growth.
3. The final sanctification will happen only in heaven when God will completely remove sin from us. 1 John 3:2b: "...and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when HE shall appear, we shall be like HIM; for we shall see HIM as HE is." This is your eternal state.
We are at no. 2. Our soul is in the process of salvation, of being sanctified. The Bible says: "Be ye holy".
The salvation of the soul is probably the most misunderstood concept in Christianity today. This may sound incredible, since virtually every church-going Christian thinks that his understanding of soul salvation is correct, but only a handful of Christians has bothered to check out the Scriptures to see what soul salvation really means. It matters not what preachers say about soul salvation, if the Scriptures say something different. Spirit and soul are not the same in the Bible. The following Scripture clearly establishes that soul and spirit are not the same:
1 Th 5:23 (KJV) And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
It...helps to confirm that spirit salvation differs from soul salvation. Spirit salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ plus nothing. The following Scripture about Paul and Silas confirms this:
Acts 16:30-31 (KJV) (30) And (the Philippian jailer) brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? (31) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Spirit salvation is very simple. One simply believes that Jesus Christ died for his sins. One can do nothing to earn this salvation. It is a gift from God, and the Holy Spirit even provides the faith. However, the Scriptures go into great detail regarding soul salvation, which should occur after spirit salvation.
The Scriptures are also clear that effort or striving is necessary for soul salvation. The following Scripture confirms this:
James 1:21 (KJV) Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
James 1:21 (ASV 1901) Wherefore putting away all filthiness and overflowing of wickedness, receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
This Scripture is addressing believers and it states that a believer can save his soul by getting rid of sin in his life and studying and obeying the inspired scriptures. This requirement differs from Acts 16:30-31. Spirit salvation and soul salvation are not the same.
The difference between spirit salvation and soul salvation is the difference between grace and works. The spirit is saved by faith in Jesus Christ, while the soul is saved by faithfulness to Jesus Christ. Soul salvation does not determine whether a person enters heaven, but it does determine his reward in heaven. Some Christians will enter heaven with no reward because of unfaithfulness to Jesus. The following Scripture confirms this:
1 Cor 3:13-15 (KJV) (13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. (14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. (15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
The following Scripture also confirms that soul salvation is the result of works:
1 Pet 1:7-9 (KJV) (7) That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: (8) Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: (9) Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
This Scripture is addressed to believers who have faith that has matured, and when tested at the return of Jesus, will be found to be as precious as gold resulting in praise, honor and glory from the Lord Jesus Christ. This results in the saving of their souls or reward for being faithful.
In the following Scripture, Jesus explains the requirement for soul salvation:
Mat 16:24-27 (KJV) (24) Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. (25) For whosoever will save his life (psuche) shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life (psuche) for my sake shall find it. (26) For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul (psuche)? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul (psuche)? (27) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Please note that the Greek word for life and soul is the same word psuche throughout this passage of Scripture. Jesus is telling His disciples about soul salvation and how it determines their reward for successfully crucifying the old flesh nature. This passage of Scripture clearly establishes that soul salvation is according to works.
Spirit and soul are not the same. The soul is what a person is in regard to his character or his person. It is possible for a person to be totally changed as a person and in character. The reason for this is that the soul is a person's mind, emotions, intellect, will and heart. It is what kind of person he is in life. This is why the Greek word psuche is alternately translated as life or soul.
It is possible for a person to lose his soul in this life and be a totally different person. This happens when a person lives according to his new spirit nature, which never sins (1 John 3:9), instead of his old flesh nature, which can do nothing good. Therefore, the Christian who loses his soul in order to save it is the faithful, spiritual Christian who will receive a reward at the Judgment Seat of Christ when the Christian's works will be tried by fire. The souls of Christians who continued to live according to their old flesh nature will be lost (i.e., THE SOULS will perish or be destroyed), and they will receive no reward. Their spirits—which are born of God—will still be saved, and they will still receive a redeemed body. The redeemed body will live in complete submission to the spirit, so the soul (i.e., personality, character and mind) of these believers will be totally different in heaven. Their souls will perish, but they will be completely and totally redeemed.
There will be Christians who will be disqualified as the Bride of Christ, and they will lose their inheritance as a coheir with Jesus Christ. They will still be in heaven, and they will be totally forgiven for all their sins. Christians who had lived their lives as gluttons will no longer be gluttons. Christians who had lived lives as busybodies and gossips will no longer be that way. Christians who were liars will no longer be liars. Christians who were pharisaical and self-righteous will no longer be that way.
In like manner, Christians who participated in drunkenness will no longer be drunkards. Christians who committed homosexual acts will no longer be homosexual. Christians who were adulterers will no longer be adulterers. Christians caught up in seeking after wealth and material possessions will no longer be worldly minded. All of these Christians will have lost their souls, but they will have new souls. Simply stated, their lives will be totally different, but they will have no positions of honor and glory in the reign of Jesus Christ.
End of part 1
As I wrote in another post, it would seem you all believe that you already have what Paul never received; Paul is still attaining.
Php 3:11 if somehow I should be attaining to the resurrection that is out from among the dead.
Php 3:10 to know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, conforming to His death,
Php 3:11 if somehow I should be attaining to the resurrection that is out from among the dead.
Php 3:12 Not that I already obtained, or am already perfected. Yet I am pursuing, if I may be grasping also that for which I was grasped also by Christ Jesus."
Php 3:13 Brethren, not as yet am I reckoning myself to have grasped, yet one thing - forgetting, indeed, those things which are behind, yet stretching out to those in front - "
Php 3:14 toward the goal am I pursuing for the prize of God's calling above in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 Whoever, then, are mature, may be disposed to this, and if in anything you are differently disposed, this also shall God reveal to you."
And I see that it is the "time" thing that is the obstacle, Thus, the Christ also, once for all having been offered, for the bearing of the sins, of many, a second time, apart from sin, will appear, to them who for him are ardently waiting—unto salvation.
Php 3:14 toward the goal am I pursuing for the prize of God's calling above in Christ Jesus.
A thought occurs to me, based on Part 1 of the "great big post" :bigGrin: ; believers will judged on their works, but won't suffer "torment" (convicting, cleansing) as the unsaved, who will have to be brought to a place of repentance and a willingness of confession of Jesus as Lord?
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 30, 2011, 01:23:56 AM
As I wrote in another post, it would seem you all believe that you already have what Paul never received; Paul is still attaining.
Php 3:11 if somehow I should be attaining to the resurrection that is out from among the dead.
I think Paul was talking about the first resurrection, i.e., ruling and reigning with Christ during His reign before Father's all in all, the reward of obedience and overcoming -
eonian life, "life of the eon"; not the "eternal" life or immortality that all will receive, to which some are guaranteed now (Jn. 3:16), the rest later.
"Note - I am NOT saying this is 100% without question exact doctrine. I do think it has a lot of merit, some good potential for learning, and good for discussion. :thumbsup:"
Im going back to read the half or less than half, but all I can say is I can really understand why people want less and less of The Bible. Religion alone is a blur and nothing more that rituals and formulas, theologians come along and stir beliefs up even more, so I am not understanding.
Jer 10:21 For the shepherds, have become brutish, And Yahweh, have they not sought,—For this cause, have they not prospered, And, all their flock, is scattered.
So I now we have Rapture, soul sleep, spiritual death, glorified and spiritual [bodies],and now soul salvation. All of which I see but I am amazed most of the time at the teachings the church pulls up to explain what the church has decided the Bible says. Example: When a soul dies it goes to heaven or paradise or should you be a bad soul, then you got hell or purgatory.
But I cant find out where in the Bible its tells me this?
Quote from: jabcat on August 30, 2011, 01:34:14 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 30, 2011, 01:23:56 AM
As I wrote in another post, it would seem you all believe that you already have what Paul never received; Paul is still attaining.
Php 3:11 if somehow I should be attaining to the resurrection that is out from among the dead.
I think Paul was talking about the first resurrection, i.e., ruling and reigning with Christ during His reign before Father's all in all, the reward of obedience and overcoming - eonian life, "life of the eon"; not the "eternal" life or immortality that all will receive, to which some are guaranteed now (Jn. 3:16), the rest later.
So whats the difference???? Paul is still dead and waiting, he has not made it as of yet. Yes all will receive DEATHLESSNESS, but they all have to WAIT dead UNTIL.
Perhaps the difference between living in close proximity to Christ, ruling and reigning with Him, partaking with Him as brethren - vs. waiting for the second resurrection and having a "distance" forever from the throne? I admit, I've had times of thinking things like "I just want to squeak in", but apparently Paul [and other overcomers] are striving to obtain more than that. :2c: They don't want to "only" be saved. They want to attain, to conquer, to be awarded the winner's prize.
As I understand, that's a whole different process than "by grace are you saved, not of yourselves, not by works, it's the gift of God".
" They don't want to "only" be saved."
Let me as you friend, do you believe that mankind "wants" to be "saved?" If you do then I dont know what to say. Mankind has no want to be saved of his own mind.
I do believe that Paul and others will be in the elect and chosen, in the first resurrection, but they are not there YET.
When the Father draws a soul, that soul is given all thats needed to run the race Eph 4:7 and to each one of you was given the grace, according to the measure of the gift of Christ,
Now I believe here is where the "works" come in, His Grace goes to work breaking the soul/person down to where the Holy Spirit can begin to direct the steps; and those steps energized by the Spirit, well there are works that get done, because that sou/person(and now a new creature)l has the very Faith of Jesus to hold on to,[not that any man should boast.]
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 30, 2011, 02:37:50 AM
" They don't want to "only" be saved."
Let me as you friend, do you believe that mankind "wants" to be "saved?" If you do then I dont know what to say. Mankind has no want to be saved of his own mind.
I'm talking about those already believing, the saved - who are not happy just "sneaking in" on grace, but are working toward the "better resurrection" through obedience, yielding, vs. living carnally/to the flesh.
I'm just a sinner saved by grace, but apparently being an overcomer will have its own rewards beyond the first step of "saved by grace, not by works".
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 30, 2011, 02:37:50 AM
"I do believe that Paul and others will be in the elect
The elect; "He chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love. He
destined us for adoption as his children through Jesus Christ,
according to the good pleasure of his will...." (Eph. 1:4–5) IMO, this is where the scripture comes in, "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."
2 different
salvations [edit]
things. One a
gift to the elect, "those that are believing" (and all the rest later), the other a reward for yielding to God's good works through them (overcomers).
Well Im sorry I just do not see "two" salvations.
"I'm just a sinner saved by grace, but apparently being an overcomer will have its own rewards beyond the first step of "saved by grace, not by works".
Eph 4:7 and to each one of you was given the grace, according to the measure of the gift of Christ,
I also do not under stand your speech "I'm talking about those already believing, the saved - who are not happy just "sneaking in" on grace, but are working toward the "better resurrection" through obedience, yielding, vs. living carnally/to the flesh."
So are you saying that some of the saved are just happy to be saved and are now lazy cause they already got what was due them?
Rom 13:11 This, also, do, being aware of the era, that it is already the hour for us to be roused out of sleep, for now is our salvation nearer than when we believe."
I have to believe that Paul is part of the "our" dont you?
After I'd posted the "2 salvations" I wished I had said instead "2 different things", but I had left for awhile - because that "3 salvation" concept is something I'm just exploring, as I indicated earlier. But I do believe, at the minimum, there are different things being discussed. Salvation by grace not works, and then rewards based on diligence.
So yes, I believe there are those who are believers who are less diligent than other believers, and that it's important to make those distinction (working on it, no expert) - and if we don't then we have what appears to be contradictions - which IMO, cannot be. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: jabcat on August 30, 2011, 04:08:15 AM
After I'd posted the "2 salvations" I wished I had said instead "2 different things", but I had left for awhile - because that "3 salvation" concept is something I'm just exploring, as I indicated earlier. But I do believe, at the minimum, there are different things being discussed. Salvation by grace not works, and then rewards based on diligence.
So yes, I believe there are those who are believers who are less diligent than other believers, and that it's important to make those distinction (working on it, no expert) - and if we don't then we have what appears to be contradictions - which IMO, cannot be. :HeartThrob:
" there are different things being discussed. Salvation by grace not works, and then rewards based on diligence."
I cannot fathom why you reason a difference in saved/salvation by Grace and you exclude works, like works would cause one not to be as saved or mess of the chances?
"So yes, I believe there are those who are believers who are less diligent than other believers.."
Now how can one know that?
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 30, 2011, 01:45:06 AM
"Note - I am NOT saying this is 100% without question exact doctrine. I do think it has a lot of merit, some good potential for learning, and good for discussion. :thumbsup:"
..and now soul salvation.
Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your
souls [
psuchas]. Js. 1:21
But we are not of them who draw back to perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the
soul [psuchEs]. Hebrews 10:39
Contrast with;
you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his
spirit [pneuma] may be saved in the day of the Lord. I Corinthians 5:5 :dontknow:
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 30, 2011, 04:17:49 AM
Quote from: jabcat on August 30, 2011, 04:08:15 AM
After I'd posted the "2 salvations" I wished I had said instead "2 different things", but I had left for awhile - because that "3 salvation" concept is something I'm just exploring, as I indicated earlier. But I do believe, at the minimum, there are different things being discussed. Salvation by grace not works, and then rewards based on diligence.
So yes, I believe there are those who are believers who are less diligent than other believers, and that it's important to make those distinction (working on it, no expert) - and if we don't then we have what appears to be contradictions - which IMO, cannot be. :HeartThrob:
" there are different things being discussed. Salvation by grace not works, and then rewards based on diligence."
I cannot fathom why you reason a difference in saved/salvation by Grace and you exclude works, like works would cause one not to be as saved or mess of the chances?
"So yes, I believe there are those who are believers who are less diligent than other believers.."
Now how can one know that?
\
Brother, Paul said specifically it was NOT of works.
And "how can one know"? I only have to look at my own life. I was visited miraculously by the Holy Spirit and given the faith to call on Jesus for salvation. During that time I've been lax at times, not really caring much, while at other times more obedient, yielded, "on fire for God", etc. Just look around. I know many people who have believed/called on Jesus for salvation of the spirit (that's what the Bible says gets one saved). Some appear worldly/carnal, while others self-deny, show the fruit of the Spirit, etc.
"So yes, I believe there are those who are believers who are less diligent than other believers, and that it's important to make those distinction (working on it, no expert) - and if we don't then we have what appears to be contradictions - which IMO, cannot be. :HeartThrob: "
Do you believe that if the Bible was taught as to the Word of God rather than the doctrines of men, that perhaps there would be more souls running for the prize of the High calling?
1Co 9:24 have ye not known that those running in a race--all indeed run, but one doth receive the prize? so run ye, that ye may obtain;
1Co 9:25 and every one who is striving, is in all things temperate; these, indeed, then, that a corruptible crown they may receive, but we an incorruptible;
1Co 9:26 I, therefore, thus run, not as uncertainly, thus I fight, as not beating air;
1Co 9:27 but I chastise my body, and bring it into servitude, lest by any means, having preached to others--I myself may become disapproved.
You gave this quote as from Micah, "Quote from: micah7:9 on Today at 05:45:06 PM
"Note - I am NOT saying this is 100% without question exact doctrine. I do think it has a lot of merit, some good potential for learning, and good for discussion. :thumbsup:"
..and now soul salvation. "
I cannot find where I said that? Found it but it was you my friend that posted it:
jabcat
Mod
*Re: Saved
« Reply #90 on: Today at 05:18:14 PM »
Reply with quote
Note - I am NOT saying this is 100% without question exact doctrine. I do think it has a lot of merit, some good potential for learning, and good for discussion. :thumbsup:
Information from various sources, including Claudia Miclaus and Lyn Mize
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 30, 2011, 01:45:06 AM
"Note - I am NOT saying this is 100% without question exact doctrine. I do think it has a lot of merit, some good potential for learning, and good for discussion. :thumbsup:"
Im going back to read the half or less than half, but all I can say is I can really understand why people want less and less of The Bible. Religion alone is a blur and nothing more that rituals and formulas, theologians come along and stir beliefs up even more, so I am not understanding.
Jer 10:21 For the shepherds, have become brutish, And Yahweh, have they not sought,—For this cause, have they not prospered, And, all their flock, is scattered.
So I now we have Rapture, soul sleep, spiritual death, glorified and spiritual [bodies],and now soul salvation. All of which I see but I am amazed most of the time at the teachings the church pulls up to explain what the church has decided the Bible says. Example: When a soul dies it goes to heaven or paradise or should you be a bad soul, then you got hell or purgatory.
But I cant find out where in the Bible its tells me this?
micah, my friend, I'm not sure I understand your statement about teaching the scriptures vs. doctrine of men. That's exactly what I'm personally trying to do, see what the scriptures say beyond our "usual" reading. Sometimes others have insight into that. I don't just take what they say without question, as the Holy Spirit is to be our "real" Teacher.
Trying to understand and reconcile the scrips, IMO, doesn't always just come easily, and I know very little. But let me ask you this; if the Bible in one place says "you're saved by grace not works, it's a gift"; then in another place says "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"; then says something along the lines of "working/hoping that I may attain" something in the future (paraphrase); doesn't that indicate there's more than an "ordinary, surface reading" might show? One person can take part of it and say, well, it's only grace. Another can say, well, it takes works. While another can say we're already saved, and another, no, we're going to be saved - and ALL pull out one or two scriptures to "prove" their point. To me, all those differerent scriptures means there's either "more than I'd previously assumed" - perhaps by that tradition of which you speak - or I'm not understanding something, because the scriptures cannot contradict. Only my understanding can fall short and cause me confusion, not the scriptures (and believe me, I've done it). Trying to learn here. :bigGrin:
Again I must question why do you find two
"The elect; "He chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love. He destined us for adoption as his children through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of his will...." (Eph. 1:4–5) IMO, this is where the scripture comes in, "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."
2 different salvations [edit] things. One a gift to the elect, "those that are believing" (and all the rest later), the other a reward for yielding to God's good works through them (overcomers)."
Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, to the saints who are in Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Eph 1:2 Grace to you, and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ!
Eph 1:3 Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who did bless us in every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
Eph 1:4 according as He did choose us in him before the foundation of the world, for our being holy and unblemished before Him, in love,
Eph 1:5 having foreordained us to the adoption of sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, in which He did make us accepted in the beloved,
Eph 1:7 in whom we have the redemption through his blood, the remission of the trespasses, according to the riches of His grace,
Eph 1:8 in which He did abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
Eph 1:9 having made known to us the secret of His will, according to His good pleasure, that He purposed in Himself,
Eph 1:10 in regard to the dispensation of the fulness of the times, to bring into one the whole in the Christ, both the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth--in him;
Eph 1:11 in whom also we did obtain an inheritance, being foreordained according to the purpose of Him who the all things is working according to the counsel of His will,
Eph 1:12 for our being to the praise of His glory, even those who did first hope in the Christ,
Eph 1:13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth--the good news of your salvation--in whom also having believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise,
Eph 1:14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, to the redemption of the acquired possession, to the praise of His glory.
Do you really believe that when the Father draws or drags a soul to His Son Jesus Christ, that that souls is saying," Wow, Glory I'm saved, now all I have to do is sit and wait. I'm IN!"
Or do you believe that soul when called, who has heard the Gospel is not going to get in the race for the Prize?
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 30, 2011, 04:43:53 AM
" thus I fight, as not beating air; [/b]
1Co 9:27 but I chastise my body, and bring it into servitude, lest by any means, having preached to others--I myself may become disapproved.
And that's the point. What prize is he talking about, since he earlier said he's saved by grace and works has nothing to do with it.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 30, 2011, 05:03:51 AM
Again I must question why do you find two
two what?
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 30, 2011, 05:03:51 AM
Do you really believe that when the Father draws or drags a soul to His Son Jesus Christ, that that souls is saying," Wow, Glory I'm saved, now all I have to do is sit and wait. I'm IN!"
Or do you believe that soul when called, who has heard the Gospel is not going to get in the race for the Prize?
Maybe not consciously. But maybe their lot is not to be an overcomer, or for whatever reason they don't mature (I don't have all those answers to all those possibilities) so although they have been given the faith to believe on Jesus as Savior, they don't grow, they neglect to pray, stay wrapped up in things of the world, etc., so they never progress beyond "call on the name of the Lord and you will be saved".
At this point are we just debating and trying to either "resist or win", or are we really trying to hear each other to edification? I don't want to just "lock horns", and no, we don't have to divide and have our own denominations :laugh: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: jabcat on August 30, 2011, 01:18:14 AM
Note - I am NOT saying this is 100% without question exact doctrine. I do think it has a lot of merit, some good potential for learning, and good for discussion. :thumbsup:
Information from various sources, including C Miclaus and L Mize
Intro: The Word of God speaks about the salvation of man in three tenses: past, present, and future. Christians have been saved; Christians are being saved; and Christians will be saved. In Ephesians 2:8,9 of the Holy Bible, salvation is described as being a past, completed act. 1 Corinthians 1:18 states that salvation is a present, continuous work; and in Hebrews 1:14, salvation is an inherited possession for the future:
We already know from the Bible that in order to have access to Heaven/New Jerusalem, a person must be saved. Now, usually, when we say that a person was saved, we mean that person accepted Christ into his life. Now, let me say that even though you were saved (at a specific time and place), you are still in the process of salvation. Your spirit is saved, but some other parts of you are not yet saved. The Bible says: "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21) Yes, that is true, your soul is not saved yet!
Salvation takes place in three times: past, present and future. You were saved (that is your spirit) when you admitted you are a sinner and accepted Jesus as your personal Savor; that was in the past. You are in the process of salvation, now, in the present (salvation of the soul). And, you will be saved in the future, when God will completely take away sin from you (that is your body).
You might say, well, I think my soul is saved. I want to ask you to reconsider that. All those bad thoughts about your neighbor, wife, husband, parents, somebody from the church – do they come out of a saved soul??? I don't think so! When you hate somebody – is that the proof of a saved soul? Is everything that your mind thinks and your heart feels proof of salvation? Not in my case, at least! John, the apostle, says in 1 John 3:9, that "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." Well, you say, 'I am saved', 'I am a child of God', but the Bible says what is born of God cannot sin.
Do you sin? I do. What does that mean? Before answering, let me tell you that in this particular verse, John is referring to our spirit. Our spirit that was born from God cannot sin. And that is so true, your spirit and mine cannot sin. Why? Because it was born from God. It is His seed – and His seed cannot sin. In order to see what is not saved yet, just think of the sources of sin in yourself. One of them is your soul. Loving in a way we're not supposed to, hating others – just show us how sinful our soul is. And if something is sinful, that something needs salvation, it needs to be changed by God.
The Bible calls the salvation of the soul, sanctification. To sanctify means to make something that is sinful into a saint; it means to be "set apart" for God, for His service. This is the process through which the believer is gradually set away from sin, and becomes more and more dedicated to the standard of God's righteousness. Titus 2:14 makes that so clear: "Who gave himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." This process takes place every day, every moment, until God will decide to move us to His glory.
In the Bible, we see three different aspects of sanctification:
1. The instantly sanctification is the position the believer receives in front of God the moment he accepts Jesus through faith. 1 Corinthians 6:11: "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." This is you position before God.
2. Progressive sanctification is the process of a man growing in righteousness; it is what "takes us ever higher" and "releases us ever more from under the power of sin." 2 Corinthians 7:1b: "...let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." The New Testament doesn't have any shortcut to sanctification; it only encourages us to just dedicate to the old-fashioned but honored reading of the Bible and to meditate, pray, worship, [yield/submit to God's will] and self-discipline ourselves. This is your spiritual growth.
3. The final sanctification will happen only in heaven when God will completely remove sin from us. 1 John 3:2b: "...and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when HE shall appear, we shall be like HIM; for we shall see HIM as HE is." This is your eternal state.
We are at no. 2. Our soul is in the process of salvation, of being sanctified. The Bible says: "Be ye holy".
The salvation of the soul is probably the most misunderstood concept in Christianity today. This may sound incredible, since virtually every church-going Christian thinks that his understanding of soul salvation is correct, but only a handful of Christians has bothered to check out the Scriptures to see what soul salvation really means. It matters not what preachers say about soul salvation, if the Scriptures say something different. Spirit and soul are not the same in the Bible. The following Scripture clearly establishes that soul and spirit are not the same:
1 Th 5:23 (KJV) And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
It...helps to confirm that spirit salvation differs from soul salvation. Spirit salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ plus nothing. The following Scripture about Paul and Silas confirms this:
Acts 16:30-31 (KJV) (30) And (the Philippian jailer) brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? (31) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Spirit salvation is very simple. One simply believes that Jesus Christ died for his sins. One can do nothing to earn this salvation. It is a gift from God, and the Holy Spirit even provides the faith. However, the Scriptures go into great detail regarding soul salvation, which should occur after spirit salvation.
The Scriptures are also clear that effort or striving is necessary for soul salvation. The following Scripture confirms this:
James 1:21 (KJV) Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
James 1:21 (ASV 1901) Wherefore putting away all filthiness and overflowing of wickedness, receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
This Scripture is addressing believers and it states that a believer can save his soul by getting rid of sin in his life and studying and obeying the inspired scriptures. This requirement differs from Acts 16:30-31. Spirit salvation and soul salvation are not the same.
The difference between spirit salvation and soul salvation is the difference between grace and works. The spirit is saved by faith in Jesus Christ, while the soul is saved by faithfulness to Jesus Christ. Soul salvation does not determine whether a person enters heaven, but it does determine his reward in heaven. Some Christians will enter heaven with no reward because of unfaithfulness to Jesus. The following Scripture confirms this:
1 Cor 3:13-15 (KJV) (13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. (14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. (15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
The following Scripture also confirms that soul salvation is the result of works:
1 Pet 1:7-9 (KJV) (7) That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: (8) Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: (9) Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
This Scripture is addressed to believers who have faith that has matured, and when tested at the return of Jesus, will be found to be as precious as gold resulting in praise, honor and glory from the Lord Jesus Christ. This results in the saving of their souls or reward for being faithful.
In the following Scripture, Jesus explains the requirement for soul salvation:
Mat 16:24-27 (KJV) (24) Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. (25) For whosoever will save his life (psuche) shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life (psuche) for my sake shall find it. (26) For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul (psuche)? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul (psuche)? (27) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Please note that the Greek word for life and soul is the same word psuche throughout this passage of Scripture. Jesus is telling His disciples about soul salvation and how it determines their reward for successfully crucifying the old flesh nature. This passage of Scripture clearly establishes that soul salvation is according to works.
Spirit and soul are not the same. The soul is what a person is in regard to his character or his person. It is possible for a person to be totally changed as a person and in character. The reason for this is that the soul is a person's mind, emotions, intellect, will and heart. It is what kind of person he is in life. This is why the Greek word psuche is alternately translated as life or soul.
It is possible for a person to lose his soul in this life and be a totally different person. This happens when a person lives according to his new spirit nature, which never sins (1 John 3:9), instead of his old flesh nature, which can do nothing good. Therefore, the Christian who loses his soul in order to save it is the faithful, spiritual Christian who will receive a reward at the Judgment Seat of Christ when the Christian's works will be tried by fire. The souls of Christians who continued to live according to their old flesh nature will be lost (i.e., THE SOULS will perish or be destroyed), and they will receive no reward. Their spirits—which are born of God—will still be saved, and they will still receive a redeemed body. The redeemed body will live in complete submission to the spirit, so the soul (i.e., personality, character and mind) of these believers will be totally different in heaven. Their souls will perish, but they will be completely and totally redeemed.
There will be Christians who will be disqualified as the Bride of Christ, and they will lose their inheritance as a coheir with Jesus Christ. They will still be in heaven, and they will be totally forgiven for all their sins. Christians who had lived their lives as gluttons will no longer be gluttons. Christians who had lived lives as busybodies and gossips will no longer be that way. Christians who were liars will no longer be liars. Christians who were pharisaical and self-righteous will no longer be that way.
In like manner, Christians who participated in drunkenness will no longer be drunkards. Christians who committed homosexual acts will no longer be homosexual. Christians who were adulterers will no longer be adulterers. Christians caught up in seeking after wealth and material possessions will no longer be worldly minded. All of these Christians will have lost their souls, but they will have new souls. Simply stated, their lives will be totally different, but they will have no positions of honor and glory in the reign of Jesus Christ.
End of part 1
This is pretty much exactly where I have come to rest after many years of study- and reading the studies of others. Soul salvation is the critical and misunderstood issue. The best book I ever read on the subject is Watchman Nee's "The Release of the Spirit".
[adjusted tiny detail in my quote]
Thanks John for the witness. I've had some uncertainties about this, yet it seems to explain some things I've been missing. One of them has to do with the sins of others. Understanding some of the above seems to put some things in place about that for me. I may explain more later, but it's been a big deal for me.
Quote from: jabcat on August 30, 2011, 05:02:34 AM
micah, my friend, I'm not sure I understand your statement about teaching the scriptures vs. doctrine of men. That's exactly what I'm personally trying to do, see what the scriptures say beyond our "usual" reading. Sometimes others have insight into that. I don't just take what they say without question, as the Holy Spirit is to be our "real" Teacher.
Trying to understand and reconcile the scrips, IMO, doesn't always just come easily, and I know very little. But let me ask you this; if the Bible in one place says "you're saved by grace not works, it's a gift"; then in another place says "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"; then says something along the lines of "working/hoping that I may attain" something in the future (paraphrase); doesn't that indicate there's more than an "ordinary, surface reading" might show? One person can take part of it and say, well, it's only grace. Another can say, well, it takes works. While another can say we're already saved, and another, no, we're going to be saved - and ALL pull out one or two scriptures to "prove" their point. To me, all those differerent scriptures means there's either "more than I'd previously assumed" - perhaps by that tradition of which you speak - or I'm not understanding something, because the scriptures cannot contradict. Only my understanding can fall short and cause me confusion, not the scriptures (and believe me, I've done it). Trying to learn here. :bigGrin:
" But let me ask you this; if the Bible in one place says "you're saved by grace not works, it's a gift"; then in another place says "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"; then says something along the lines of "working/hoping that I may attain" something in the future (paraphrase); doesn't that indicate there's more than an "ordinary, surface reading" might show? One person can take part of it and say, well, it's only grace. Another can say, well, it takes works. While another can say we're already saved, and another, no, we're going to be saved - and ALL pull out one or two scriptures to "prove" their point. "
Psa_119:160 The sum of Thy word is truth, And to the age is every judgment of Thy righteousness!
To me this means
ALL of His Word is truth. Grace CAUSES us to obey God. The carnal mind CAUSES men to disobey God. It is that simple."And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the Name of the LORD shall be SAVED" (Acts 2:21)?
"And why call ye Me, LORD, LORD, and DO NOT THE THINGS WHICH I SAY?" (Luke 6:46).
Eph 2:8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you--of God the gift,
Eph 2:9 not of works, that no one may boast;
Eph 2:10 for of Him we are workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God did before prepare, that in them we may walk.
"For the GRACE of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, TEACHING US [Gk: 'to train, educate, discipline, punish, chasten, instruct, learn, teach'] that, denying ungodliness and worldly lust, we should live soberly [with a sound mind], righteously, and GODLY, in this present world" (Titus 2:11-12).
If you are not doing this and growing every day, then you are
not being graced by God, and you are not on your way to salvation. The grace of God WILL DISCIPLINE AND CHASTEN us into obedience to all of God's Spiritual laws and commandments.
"Whosoever will come after Me, let him DENY himself, and TAKE UP HIS CROSS, and FOLLOW ME"
(Mark 8:34).This is not an "option" to salvation;
this is an absolute REQUIREMENT. Not trying to paint a picture of doom and gloom, but the reality of living as Jesus Christ demands is not a walk in the park or a stroll through a rose garden.
"For even hereunto were ye called; because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example that ye should follow [By suffering with Him—'Yea, and ALL that will live godly in Christ Jesus SHALL SUFFER persecution' II Tim. 3:12] His steps" (I Pet. 2:21).
"He that says he abides in Him ought himself also so to walk, even as He [Jesus] walked" (I John 2:6).
"Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He IS, SO ARE WE in the world" (I John 4:17).
Now these words are for
ALL not just some group? Correct?
""So yes, I believe there are those who are believers who are less diligent than other believers, and that it's important to make those distinction (working on it, no expert) - and if we don't then we have what appears to be contradictions - which IMO, cannot be. :HeartThrob: "(Jabcat)
If this be true "I believe there are those who are believers who are less diligent than other believers.." Then I say those less diligent, were never as of yet by God's Grace.
Quote from: jabcat on August 30, 2011, 05:10:16 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 30, 2011, 05:03:51 AM
Again I must question why do you find two
two what?
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 30, 2011, 05:03:51 AM
Do you really believe that when the Father draws or drags a soul to His Son Jesus Christ, that that souls is saying," Wow, Glory I'm saved, now all I have to do is sit and wait. I'm IN!"
Or do you believe that soul when called, who has heard the Gospel is not going to get in the race for the Prize?
Maybe not consciously. But maybe their lot is not to be an overcomer, or for whatever reason they don't mature (I don't have all those answers to all those possibilities) so although they have been given the faith to believe on Jesus as Savior, they don't grow, they neglect to pray, stay wrapped up in things of the world, etc., so they never progress beyond "call on the name of the Lord and you will be saved".
At this point are we just debating and trying to either "resist or win", or are we really trying to hear each other to edification? I don't want to just "lock horns", and no, we don't have to divide and have our own denominations :laugh: :HeartThrob:
AWWWWW but I always WANTED to have my own denomination! :btantrum:
I have printed off your paper (its is quite long) so that I can study what you wrote. It is difficult for me to read a lot on the screen and besides I'm a note taker. Ive read it twice on the screen and all it did was murk up my mind, one thing stands out is that you say that "The salvation of the soul is probably the most misunderstood concept in Christianity today."
I can say that the entire teaching of the Bible is the most misunderstood concept in Christianity today
:bigGrin: Just making sure you know, this information is 99.9% other sources than myself. I didn't write it, I'm not that smart. :winkgrin:
Quote from: jabcat on August 30, 2011, 05:37:13 AM
:bigGrin: Just making sure you know, this information is 99.9% other sources than myself. I didn't write it, I'm not that smart. :winkgrin:
I am a little let down now that you told me that. I dont believe that you are not that smart, you are a treasure hunter, a searcher of pearls, you have the mind of Christ. You, that Life in you, is just in need of grace doing a little guiding and nudging, as your faith grows stronger, the Wisdom of the Lord will find its way and then you wont need to be smart! :bigGrin:
1Co 2:14 and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know them , because spiritually they are discerned;
1Co 2:15 and he who is spiritual, doth discern indeed all things, and he himself is by no one discerned;
1Co 2:16 for who did know the mind of the Lord that he shall instruct Him? and we--we have the mind of Christ. :dsunny:
Quote from: jabcat on August 30, 2011, 04:20:54 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 30, 2011, 01:45:06 AM
"Note - I am NOT saying this is 100% without question exact doctrine. I do think it has a lot of merit, some good potential for learning, and good for discussion. :thumbsup:"
..and now soul salvation.
Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls [psuchas]. Js. 1:21
But we are not of them who draw back to perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul [psuchEs]. Hebrews 10:39
Contrast with;
you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit [pneuma] may be saved in the day of the Lord. I Corinthians 5:5 :dontknow:
Before I do back out completely for awhile, I wanted to make sure you saw this post brother micah, and notice the difference in what's being saved.
Alright, carry on. Be blessed in your searching, and I'll post Part 2 tomorrow, Lord willing. :dsunny:
Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls [psuchas]. Js. 1:21
breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; to breathe (voluntarily but gently; to breathe hard, that is, breeze: - blow; life; to live
Or could be said.... which is able to save your BREATH or LIFE or LIVES
Yes I know the Greeks made a soul(the sentient of the human)but of a truth a soul is the person.
I would say the same about Heb.10:39
But we are not of them who draw back to perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul [psuchEs]. Hebrews 10:39
Lev 17:14 for the soul of all flesh is its blood; as its soul is it. So I said to the sons of Israel:The blood of any flesh you shall not eat, for the soul of all flesh, it is its blood. Everyone eating it shall be cut off.(CLV)
Lev 17:14 for it is the life of all flesh, its blood is for its life; and I say to the sons of Israel, Blood of any flesh ye do not eat, for the life of all flesh is its blood; any one eating it is cut off. (YLT)
Lev 17:14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off. (KJV)
Do you see the how "soul" is translated.
Contrast with;
you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit [pneuma] may be saved in the day of the Lord. I Corinthians 5:5
From what I can find in most translations it reads,'.. so that "the" spirit may be saved.
Which in my reasoning is breath, which is what gives him life. I believe that "spirit" is the breath of Gen.2:7 which is what will return to the one who gave it. G4151 pneuma ; a current of air, that is, breath G4154 pneō A primary word; to breathe hard. Still I find that verse puzzling, the delivering over to the adversary part. What is quite funny is
1Co 5:5 to deliver up and Joh 13:11 For he knew who should betray him;
That word betray is the same. G3860 paradidōmi to surrender, that is, yield up, intrust, transmit: betray, bring forth, cast, commit, deliver (up).
I find that interesting just found that out.
Before I do back out completely for awhile, I wanted to make sure you saw this post brother micah, and notice the difference in what's being saved.
God has no need to deliver someone over to Satan to save His own 'breathe'. The breathe returns to the one who gave it when a man dies no matter whether he was delivered over to Satan or not.
Quote from: eaglesway on August 30, 2011, 07:58:22 AM
God has no need to deliver someone over to Satan to save His own 'breathe'. The breathe returns to the one who gave it when a man dies no matter whether he was delivered over to Satan or not.
Any thoughts on 1Co 5:5 to deliver up such a one to the Adversary for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 30, 2011, 05:33:08 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on August 30, 2011, 07:58:22 AM
God has no need to deliver someone over to Satan to save His own 'breathe'. The breathe returns to the one who gave it when a man dies no matter whether he was delivered over to Satan or not.
Any thoughts on 1Co 5:5 to deliver up such a one to the Adversary for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
I have found this a tough verse. Why hand anyone to Satan, especially a believer. But I reason perhaps it is by faith that Paul believes the man will suffer consequences for his evils, reap what he sowed, by handing the flesh over to satan, satan buffets the flesh, like he did with Job, so that the man repents from his sins. king David also was buffeted by Satan for his sins and also Paul via the thorn in the flesh. The thorn keeps Paul humble and prevents the old prideful boastfull Saul, resurfacing.
:2c:
I believe a new thread is a good idea for I Cor.5:5 yes?
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 30, 2011, 10:08:17 PM
I believe a new thread is a good idea for I Cor.5:5 yes?
I looked for an old thread we could, ahummm, resurrect.
I didn't find one, so go for it.
Part 2 as promised. (A few thoughts; in this respect I agree with micah, that if a person has believed there will be at least some evidence of old things passing away and all things becoming new. So for my understanding, the following information may take that just a little too far in saying there may not be any sign other than they say they believed. Still, there may be Christians that have trusted Christ as Savior, but are still carnal/worldly (see Paul's letter to the Corinthians).
Anyway, again, perhaps much to be gleaned here if we approach it with an open heart and mind, pray about it, test the spirits, and study to "see if those things be true".
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[from Part 1; Note - I am NOT saying this is 100% without question exact doctrine. I do think it has a lot of merit, some good potential for learning, and good for discussion.
Information from various sources, including C Miclaus and L Mize]
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The Word of God speaks about the salvation of man in three tenses: past, present, and future. Christians have been saved; Christians are being saved; and Christians will be saved. In Ephesians 2:8,9 of the Holy Bible, salvation is described as being a past, completed act. 1 Corinthians 1:18 states that salvation is a present, continuous work; and in Hebrews 1:14, salvation is an inherited possession for the future:
(Eph 2:8-9 NIV) For it is by grace you *have been* saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- {9} not by works, so that no one can boast.
(1 Cor 1:18 NIV) For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
(Heb 1:14 NIV) Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?
Many Christians do not understand the whole salvation of man according to how the Bible teaches it...The Bible is not a buffet for Christians to pick and choose what scriptures they want to eat. They must eat the whole Bible in it's entirety. For example, James 1:21 tells very specifically how to save your soul.
(James 1:21 KJV) Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
This Scripture appears to disagree with Acts 16:30-31, where it says, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." Since these two Scriptures are talking about different criteria for salvation, which must mean there is something else a Christian must do in order to save his soul. Man is a tripartite or three part being consisting of body, soul, and spirit. These are the three salvations that will be discussed throughout this paper.
(1 Th 5:23 NIV) May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
There is only one place in the Bible where a person asked, "what must I do to be saved?" The verse reads:
(Acts 16:30-31 NIV) He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" {31} They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household."
This requirement for salvation is so simple, a small child can even understand it. There is only one step to God's plan of salvation and anyone who adds additional steps is merely adding to the Bible. This salvation is known as the salvation of the spirit. The requirement for this salvation is simply believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. Salvation does not require repentance, baptism, submission to the control of the Holy Spirit, fellowship with other Christians, fellowship with God, or faithfulness to God."
These six choices should follow salvation but are in no way requirements for salvation. When a person believes on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation, God's Holy Spirit immediately enters into his body and indwells him forever. Many Christians believe that salvation can be lost, and they are partially right. The salvation of the soul can be lost, but the salvation of the spirit can not be lost. The surety of going to heaven can not be lost according to the following verses:
(Eph 1:13 NIV) And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
(Eph 4:30 NIV) And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
When a person is saved he is in the family of God, and that is why we call God our Father who is in heaven. Once God becomes our Father and we become His children (children of God), that relationship cannot be broken. For example, everyone has a father and a mother. When someone dies or starts living a life of sin away from his family, does this mean that this person no longer has a mother or a father? Certainly not! It does not matter what you do or where you go here on earth, your father will always be your father, and your mother will always be your mother. Fellowship with the family can be broken, but relationship cannot be broken. Every believer will have to stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ and give an account of what he did here on earth, whether it be good or bad, in accordance with the following Scripture:
(1 Cor 3:13-15 NIV) his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. {14} If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. {15} If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
Then each believer will be rewarded according to what he did in this life. If everything he did on earth was bad, he will be repaid accordingly. Obedience to God will also be rewarded accordingly. Salvation of the spirit gets a person to the Judgment Seat of Christ, which takes place at the resurrection.
A person cannot lose the salvation of his spirit. This is proven in the following Scripture:
(2 Cor 1:21-22 NIV) Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, {22} set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
Paul was encouraging the Philippians to save their souls in the following Scripture:
(Phil 2:12 NIV) Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,
Now if the Lord saves you by grace (which is an unmerited gift), why would Paul tell us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling? Paul is not talking about our spirit salvation. He is referring to soul salvation, which is directly related to rewards and our works. Many preachers and teachers misinterpret this Scripture by pulling it out of context and saying that Paul is talking about spiritual rebirth.
Jesus tells his disciples that they must lose their lives or souls now to save it for the coming kingdom. Christians can do this by surrendering our lives to the control of the Holy Spirit, who lives inside of us...faithfulness will be rewarded with a position of reigning and ruling with Jesus Christ in the kingdom. Most Christians are not willing to do this.
The loss of one's soul is the loss of rewards and a position of honor in the coming reign of Christ. It means his life was wasted here on earth, since he did nothing for the Lord Jesus Christ.
The spirit of man is what links him directly to God. At creation, God breathed life into the nostrils of Adam and made him a living being...Christians need to flee from sin and absorb and live according to the Word. This is considered works of faith. Christians can mature and save their souls through the knowledge of and obedience to the Word of God. The books of 1 Peter and 2 Peter were written to Christians in regard to saving their souls as a future occurrence:
(1 Pet 1:7-9 KJV) That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: {8} Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: {9} Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
The third part of man is his body, which allows him to be in contact with the physical realm. Man is incomplete without all three parts. Those who think that man will live in a blissful state when he no longer has a body are ignorant of the Scriptures. The salvation of a Christian's body is entirely future, and it is guaranteed to occur at the resurrection.
(Rom 8:23 KJV) And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
At the resurrection Christians will be given a redeemed body of flesh and bone, and they will be sinless and perfect.
Conclusion
A Christian's salvation involves spirit, soul, and body. All three are important to the Christian in that the spirit was saved, the soul is being saved, and the body is going to be saved. Consequently, salvation is past, present and future. Unfortunately, there will be Christians who will lose their souls at the Judgment Seat of Christ, but they will still be saved spiritually as one who came through a fire and lost everything:
(1 Cor 3:13-15 KJV) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. {14} If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. {15} If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
When a person believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, his spirit is saved. From there a Christian should go on into the salvation of the soul. This salvation is accomplished throughout the life of a Christian, if he submits himself to the control of the indwelling Holy Spirit. This salvation is the only salvation that can be lost, and Christians should awaken to this fact. When Christians get to the Judgment Seat of Christ, the Lord Jesus Christ will determine whether or not the lives we lived were for Him or for ourselves. All Christians, whether they lose their soul or not, will receive glorified bodies at the resurrection that will live in perfect obedience to the Holy Spirit. Therefore, all Christians will have a new soul or life at the Judgment Seat of Christ, making all Christians perfect tripartite beings. The ones who lost their souls will have no positions of authority in the millennial kingdom...
What should a Christian be mostly aware of when it comes to salvation? Spirit salvation is nothing that we do. It is the work of the Holy Spirit. After a person has been born again, it is critical that he read, study, and apply the teachings of the Bible to his life. If we as spiritually born from above believers do this, then our lives will count for something, and we will receive tremendous rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ. This is the salvation of our soul. If we live our lives according to our own flesh nature, then our lives will not count for anything, and we will receive no rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ. This is the loss of our souls. The salvation of the soul pertains strictly to rewards, and it plays no part in our final destiny. However, all Christians will be in heaven and will be made perfect, since they will be conformed to the image of Christ. The salvation of a Christian's body is entirely future, and it is guaranteed to occur at the resurrection - when God will completely take away sin from you (that is your body). ...
Editor's note :bigGrin: - then eventually all will join the family, as every knee bows and every tongue confesses Jesus is Lord. Each in his own order.
I Cor. 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For "He has put all things under His feet."[a] But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
Should that be how salvation is seen by some folks, I aint gonna get involved. Just seems like they made it complicated. :mshock:
"This requirement for salvation is so simple, a small child can even understand it." Thats what they said. :sigh: :dontknow:
Okay, I have no more to say. :laughing7:
How hard is it to say'YOUR SINS ARE FORGIVEN" as far as I can see...Father made up the" difference" or 'lack' in mankind through His Son...
....the price of our redemption is paid in full...whatever it takes in cost to restore a man. No matter the lack in individual men. 'my grace is sufficient
Am I saying,'sin more that grace may abound" No"
when He said 'IT IS FINISHED" that part was taken care of. HE paid the price and received the right to raise up all mankind in His image.The Father
was doing the works in Him. Our work is to beleive it
Death where is your sting! Death s being "swallowed up" by immortality! The sting of death is sin and our sins are forgiven! I prefer to to look at salvation as an incorruptible seed of all things pertaining to life and godliness sown in the spirit of a new believer. The seed grows, the faithful husbandman is patient over the harvest. First the shoot, then the stalk, then the full grain- he waits for the early and the latter reign. He digs the earth, dungs it, and waters it every morning. We labor to enter his rest, ceasing from our own works, and enter the works finished from the foundation of the world- a learning and discerning experience that grows and matures through time and trial, as Christ is formed within, the manchild comes forth and the works of the adversary are destroyed, swallowed by the light of the lamps God lights and holds aloft to shne throughout the whole house. Presto! That same seed of LIFE is swallowing up sin and her child, Death, and all their seed- throughout the WHOLE CREATION.
Sometimes there is so much relief in looking at the big picture.
Quote from: eaglesway on September 03, 2011, 05:36:35 PM
Death where is your sting! Death s being "swallowed up" by immortality! The sting of death is sin and our sins are forgiven! I prefer to to look at salvation as an incorruptible seed of all things pertaining to life and godliness sown in the spirit of a new believer. The seed grows, the faithful husbandman is patient over the harvest. First the shoot, then the stalk, then the full grain- he waits for the early and the latter reign. He digs the earth, dungs it, and waters it every morning. We labor to enter his rest, ceasing from our own works, and enter the works finished from the foundation of the world- a learning and discerning experience that grows and matures through time and trial, as Christ is formed within, the manchild comes forth and the works of the adversary are destroyed, swallowed by the light of the lamps God lights and holds aloft to shne throughout the whole house. Presto! That same seed of LIFE is swallowing up sin and her child, Death, and all their seed- throughout the WHOLE CREATION.
Sometimes there is so much relief in looking at the big picture.
:HeartThrob:
Its still a walk that has to be walked out :HeartThrob: