Saved by Grace?????

[donken]

Eph_2:5  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph_2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

What does this mean to you?   What about the "gift" part.  Is it something we actually receive or need to receive?  Or, is it something that is imputed or just offered without anything on our part needed?   What is it we have to have faith about?   

Did you ever think about these things.

ken

[Deena]

In place of the word "grace" I will sometimes put "by God's desire". It was His desire that we be rescued, saved. It was His desire to give it to us as a gift. He alone can give it and He desires to. All of it is His doing because He desires it. This rendering acknowledges my need for a Savior and the Savior God who alone can provide it and desires to. He does not resent my need of it , but calls to all the ends of the earth, "Come unto me and be saved!" (Is. 45-46). Well, that is my take on it.

[ed]

I'll think about it.  Thanks.

Ephesians 1
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Is grace just a greeting here?  What is the opposite of grace?  How is grace appropriated?
If I know it is good and know that I want it, how do I get it? 

Ephesians 1
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved .

It is the grace of God that has made us acceptable in Christ.  Knowing that we are acceptable is of great worth with all the many doctrines that seem to degrade us.  There are many doctrines that would make God seem far off, unattainable, unknowable, out of reach.................knowing  God's grace heals(sozo) us. 

Ephesians 2
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved ;)

I remember being dead.  I remember when spiritual birth fist occurred in me.  Grace was sent to heal my brokenness.  New birth had nothing to do with me, other then the fact that I was in need.  When you have been healed once, a relationship starts.  It is a relationship that can not be taken away.  The healing is undeniable.  When you are healed repeatedly trusting in grace become the norm.  Humility is the end result, knowing that it is all God's grace that brings the healing.

Ephesians 2
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Is it grace that is the gift or is it faith that is the gift?  Both?  The grace is there whether I believe it or not.  Believing in God's grace takes time and work.  Not of myself?  What is my part in any of this?   I am to see the grace.  Seeing grace produces faith.  Faith is a fruit.  Fruit grows.

Ephesians 3
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given , that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

Grace is not always easy.  Paul's ministry was a constant battle.
What battles lie ahead for us?  If they lie in our path, the grace will be there to accomplish them.  Only we can accomplish the hard tasks that God has given us the grace to accomplish.  Each day, each battle, seeing that grace is there, brings us the strength to carry out the will of God.

Ephesians 4
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

Each individual must see(know, believe) the grace of God for their daily life.  It will differ in each individual.  That is an awesome reality that God works in each individual according to the grace that is in Christ Jesus.

[donken]

Donken here.

Ephesians 4
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

How about the phrase, "according to the measure of the GIFT of Christ".  It implies that either God gives some more than others, OR it means that as time goes on we all receive more and more maturity in Christ.  This would include the "waiting" over centuries for "His Appearing in FULL" that is being "sent" today, eventually to be to and for all.

I believe if we think about it, it takes the lion like strength of God\love to be the Lamb.  No one can be the LAMB except the strength and wisdom of God be in them.

As to being saved by grace through faith, I see it as having faith that God wants us to be like Jesus, will give us of Himself in us to be able to be like Jesus, and that today is the day of that "giving".   So that is a faith part.  Then, we are saved in full and walk in the world when WE ARE THE GRACE OF GOD within as who we are, toward all other people no matter what they do.  That is the "purpose of GOD" from before the world began.   We need to be that grace and if we read Jesus' commandments I think we will come to that conclusion by adding in the admonition of Jesus tht said that if we hear HIS words and do not do them then we build our house on a false foundation and will perish out of the world.  It is the ungodly ways of the world that cause death of the body, who we are.

Paul said, I keep my body under lest after I have preached to others I myself be a cast away.   Paul said, "this mortal", meaning the body, must put on immortality.  It was Jesus' same flesh body that was made alive again.  God can not die or there would be no one to "raise the body".  As in Jesus' death on the cross we read he GAVE UP THE GHOST.   Something LEFT Jesus in his dying.  It is that "GHOST" which was returned to the body that gave the body life again.

Jesus said "MY FATHER" is greater than I.  God does not have a father.   The fact that Jesus was a flesh and blood man and that the Christ was the life of God in him is important for us today, so we can believe that a person born of a natural woman, as we all are, can and will become one with Jesus and by becoming who Jesus is the body is saved, changed without dying. {sleeping}.   That is the faith needed.  And, after we endure for  while, God will strengthen and establish that people, it "this" evil day.  We are to stand {resurrect} in the evil day by putting on ALL the armour of Christ Jesus.

I understand sin as being short of the glory of God.  I also understand that every human baby born is short of the glory of an adult.    Therefore sin is really able to be understood by us as a condition of being immature in comparison to God.   I mean, only God is holy, therefore anyone or anything that is not God is going to be sin {immature} automatically.  This includes anything that is STILL BEING MADE as mankind is.  The first man is "not God", but natural, earthy, sensual, devilish.   A child, immature, and has been growing for eons of time to this time now, where we are to become mature and one with GOD within and have our father be in us as who we are Spiritually while still in this world.  That is how Jesus "appears" and returns to the world, from WITHIN MAN.  The kingdom of heaven is within us scripture says in Luke 21:17ff.  We are not to say look here, look there, look in the sky, etc.

Do not look for Jesus Christ to be OUTSIDE of you.  As we become Jesus Christ in maturity in this world, we receive the name that is the only name by which anyone may be "saved".  We become Jesus Christ ourselves because God's Son is always the same person in nature and wisdom, no matter what the outer physical image looks like.

The I am that I am,   God's "name" we can say, is that God's name is that God is everything that God is.  God is who His entire nature and wisdom makes him to be.  The divine nature is one way of saying that.  WE can be the nature of God our selves, thus making us one with the father and in the spiritual image of the father, without having to be the same knowledge about everything that God is.   God is who or what all the attributes of his nature are, and we can be that nature.  That is who we can be one with the father and have the father IN US like Jesus did\does.   The stone with a new name on it that we will receive has the name Jesus on it.  It is not possible to mentally know Jesus Christ and God intimately without actually being who God is internallly in our emotions and desires and so on.  He in us, we in him, and we and him {Jesus} in the Father because the father {eternal life} is in us, finally.

God bless.

[Seth]

Eph_2:5  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph_2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

What does this mean to you?   What about the "gift" part.  Is it something we actually receive or need to receive?  Or, is it something that is imputed or just offered without anything on our part needed?   What is it we have to have faith about?   

Did you ever think about these things.

ken

The first scripture I think about when people bring up the topic of grace is one that I never heard in church.

Titus 2
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation (sozo - healing, salvaging) hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us (paiduo - chastening us) that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

So to answer your question about the Ephesians scripture: "For by grace ye are saved, through faith, not of yourselves, it is a gift of God." There is one scripture that I believe pulls everything together.

He became a curse for us:

Galatians 3
14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

The Holy Spirit is the free gift that allows us to be saved from the carnal mind, and therefore from sin itself. God chooses his elect from before they were born. Then he gives them an impartation of faith, then the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit then saves us from our sin.

[bushy]

Eph_2:5  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph_2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

What does this mean to you?   What about the "gift" part.  Is it something we actually receive or need to receive?  Or, is it something that is imputed or just offered without anything on our part needed?   What is it we have to have faith about?   

Did you ever think about these things.

ken

I think Jesus came to save the world, and didn't ask us if we wanted to be saved. He saved us because He wanted to, because He loved the world. He did that about 2000 years ago so it's a done deal.

Galatians 1:4 who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,

It was the will of the Father to rescue us from this evil age, something we had no chance of being able to do on our own.

I think like any good father, our heavenly Father wants us to mature and will see to it that we cooperate with Him for the rest of our salvation and healing, obeying, etc.

[donken]

I agree God will have his will, our salvation from our own immaturity and evil doing, and that we will certainly have eternal life in Peace and Holiness.

I also believe that the grace we are saved by or matured through is not only God's grace in and from God, but we now have to show forth that GRACE in our own lives and walk it out.  Each to his own desire and time from and through the Spirit of God indwelling.  But it is by faith also, at first.  We do have to walk it out in faith obeying Jesus in turning the other cheek, loving those that might make themselves our enemies for a time, forgiving all men their wrongs toward us, and so on.  That is following Jesus and it takes the Spirit of the father in us in Lordship to actually do it all, but first we do it by choosing to do what Jesus witnessed the spirit to be simply by choosing to follow Him and believe Him as "the way" we are to be, even when tempted or wanting to do otherwise.

By being that Grace we are saved.

God bless,

[Seth]

I also believe that the grace we are saved by or matured through is not only God's grace in and from God, but we now have to show forth that GRACE in our own lives and walk it out.

:iagree: and yet here is the humbling thing about that:

Phil 2
12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out (outwardly work) your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

At the end of the day, God gets all the credit. He is the one who saves us from the internal carnal mind, and he is the one who reveals himself through works.

[eaglesway]

Being saved from the old nature, and the process of being transformed into the image of Christ, the Son is a free gift. It is "on the books" for all mankind, from the beginning, its cost? - the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Yet, the "administration of the completion of times" is the outworking of a seed(Logos) planted from the first creation of the kosmos, "Let there be light".

The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness cannot overcome it.

I believe God has made us His children by grace through faith, but He is teaching us to be sons, transforming us into the image of the Unique Son, the firstborn among many brethren.

This, for me, involves two wills becoming one, and not everyone in this age is elect to receive it. Not everyone who receives it will yield to the freely given power to become one with Him from the heart.

As we learn the futility of our own ways- we pray for grace and power from the Spirit, and we get it because "the Father eagerly desires to give us His Spirit"(James). This is part of learning to be a maturing child, growing into the image of the Son- "firstborn among many brethren"..."perfected through suffering".

I believe everyone will eventually become His children, in the sense of new creation, or new birth. I am not so sure everyone will inherit sonship.... "The one who overcomes will inherit all things and sit with me upon my throne". This (imo) is for the faithful of this age- a unique opportunity(angels desire to look into.... "Behold I come quickly and my reward is with me" (in the now and in the age to come).

If a person has not believed, they have not yet received the salvation purchased for them at the cross- the right to become sons of God(John 1)

If a person has believed they are His child and they are on the potters wheel, being shaped into sons- or in the crucible of discipline, where they are learning the futility of carnal thinking so as to get off the wide road that leads to destruction(of the carnal nature, now and in the age to come) and get into the narrow way that leads to aionian life(in the now and in the age to come).

If a person has not believed they are without form and void, and the spirit hovers upon the waters as they await the word of new creation.... "Let There Be Light". In due time, they will see "the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ" and they will "Taste and see that the Lord is good", until every adversary is in Him and He is all in all. These are just my opinions.

[Seth]

 :iagree:

Grace does many things. Forgives, establishes, corrects, and shapes.

[dajomaco]

Is it easier to resist sin?

Or is it easier to resist Grace?

Grace is more powerful than Sin.

Yet I do not find it very difficult to Sin.

Then I see the power of Grace.

My carnal mind is then humbled and taken out of the equation.

The algorithms keep on going. 

[eaglesway]

amen. Grace is more powerful than sin because it is powered by love, purely given to the unmerited :o). I perceive my Father's love most deeply when, after failure or fault, when my mind is on my woe- He reaches out and touches me sweetly in some way to let me know, "I will never leave you or forsake you" and yes Daj, I am "undone", and weep tears of joy and appreciation because, "Tho I make my bed in Sheol, You are with me."

[donken]

It takes the lion like strength of God {love} to be the Lamb that is only able to be "of GOD" and because of God.

Scripture says God has taken the foolish things of the world to confound the wise.   We understand that the foolish things are what the world thinks is foolishness, but it is really the Wisdom of God.  The world thinks that being the LAMB is being a doormat and does not get anything done {the way they think things are done}
But, when all have bowed their knee willingly to the Lamb themselves and become one with Him by the Father in them, they will understand that Peace and True HOLINESS is the ONLY ANSWER for continued peace and eternal life.
Isaiah 32 says, the fruit or result of righteousness is PEACE.  Anyone who desires to be and remain in and as God's righteousness which we are told to seek first, before all other things, must accomplish all things while remaining in THAT PEACE.  An inner peace.  If we lose that peace, the Spirit of God in us is telling us that we are doing something that is not of HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS.    Follow that Spirit.

GOD has chosen the weak things "of the world", what the world thinks if weak and a doormat, to confound the strong of the world.  No man can become the Lamb and remain the Lamb without God in them as who they are, one with the Father.  Seek ye FIRST......

[eaglesway]

True holiness. What a mouthfull that is.

As the word "faith" has been corrupted by Christians trying to turn God into their personal genie- so also the word "holiness" has been corrupted by Christians trying to find righteousness in their code of dress and conduct :o)

True holiness, to me, is birthed out of love for God and men who He has created and sacrificed to win into the beautiful freedom of His love. Set apart unto Him, won by love into His purpose, His mind, His heart, His glorious nature. This is the living water.

"He that believes in me out of His innermost being shall gush forth rivers of living water"

"Come, all you thirsty ones, drink freely of the water of life"

and the Spirit and the Bride say, Come!

[donken]

Rev 19:7  Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8  And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Rev 19:9  And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
                     "Made herself ready".    As in Jesus said, follow me, an active living journey.   Also, if "anyone" hears my words and does not do them they have built their house on the sand.    Also     If any one keep my sayings they shall NEVER die.  {Do we think he means "some" of his sayings?}   We are coming to a place where we will know that he is not saying "some".

In scripture Jesus is reported to have said to some, go and sin no more.  If he really said that it must be possible, but... it is only possible when HE is appearing or already HERE.

[eaglesway]

This may be so, although I believe Jesus was speaking to her of the particular sin that got her into the situation He rescued her from. James said, "We all stumble in many ways" and John said, "If we claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves" (1 John 1:8)  and, "If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness".

A part of overcoming is the freedom to come before the throne of grace having our bodies washed with pure water and our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience.

As James said, "Confess your faults one to another and pray for one another that you may be healed".

This is also a part of true holiness. :o)

[Seth]

It's all about what Jesus said about himself as the tree in John 15. If any branch continue to abide in him and bear fruit, the gardener will prune so that he produces even more fruit. We will be pruned up to the very end when we shed this disappointing flesh, and receive new bodies. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

[eaglesway]

 :iagree:

God knows the secrets of our hearts, whether we are in agreement with sin, or struggling with it. This is why there are so many injunctions to not judge. I note the parable of the man who was forgiven a large debt, who then prosecuted a minor debtor; also the parable of the man who could not lift his head up to heaven, "Lord have mercy on me a sinner". Jesus draws many such pictures in order to leave us neither in disrespect of the consequences of sin or unable to access the grace required to escape the grip of the flesh. In the closet, God who sees in secret, hears the remorse of failure as well as the duplicity of the self-righteous. What a mighty God we serve!

Those who use grace as a license to sin have their reward.

Those who need grace to find deliverance from sin, have free access to the throne of grace.

God knows the difference :o) (All things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do)

[josh]

a consideration of grace should also include a consideration of its relationship to mercy...

it is said by some that god does not limit his grace and is always offering grace
but that grace is nevertheless limited when souls lack mercy and lack seeing
how essential to grace is faith in the mercies of god
and an appreciation of his mercy is essential to benefiting in god's unlimited grace..
but to appreciate truly god's mercy one must also be willing to be merciful

along with being saved by grace
also about  how one is justified by grace
thru faith
in what
in god
in what of god
in god's mercies
and then what does faith god's mercies mean
and now does that connect with being not only saved by grace but justified by grace...

[donken]

Hi.  I am all for forgiveness, especially in myself toward others, and in fact I find that I do not have to forgive hardly any thing because I do not take offence at much anyway.   But, Hebrews 6 tells us there is a time coming with sins will no longer be forgiven because they are going to be blotted out entirely.  That is part of the eternal judgment Paul said we would go on toward and with, God permitting.  Well, God is beginning to permit it in this day, this time in the earth now.

When something is forgiven it does not mean it will not happen again.  When it is no longer forgiven "only" it is because it is not going to be allowed to live or exist any more.  The end of "sin" by our maturity in Christ and just like Jesus who did not want to die, He did it anyway because he had to.  We are now coming to that possibility also, but first we have to know what is required.  We can not walk together with God if we do not know what we are to do.  There  is no escape from the fact we MUST PARTICIPATE NOW.  Filling up that which is behind of the sufferings of Christ in our own worldly existence, if necessary.

[donken]

Hi.,  RE reply 16.   Yes, there is a pruning if necessary, but if we see {understand} Jesus' witness clearly as to what we are to be like then we can also be saved from much labour pains by Jesus Christ that way also.

God only has one son, no matter how many individuals there are.  God's seed always bears exactly true in the end.  We all are destined to be Jesus Christ THE son of God and be one with the father forever... eternal life.

[donken]

Yes.  If we understand that we are all bone of each others bone and flesh of each others flesh, all the same body as it were, like cells on the body, then we will understand other peoples inability to understand until God deals with them as with SONS.  Recall, if we are not yet judged by god then we are not yet Sons but are "bastards".  KJV.

We all individually have to be perfected.  GOd is authentic and if we are going to be the son of God that is as God is, then we have to be holy and mature by OUR OWN JUDGMENTS, just like God is who HE is by HIS OWN JUDGMENTS and HOLINESS.   God is not MADE or CREATED.  HE is.   If we are to be God we can not be forced to be God "without our agreement" and without our WALKING LIKE JESUS did IN THIS EARTH before going anywhere.
Jesus Christ is the ONLY ONE who does not die again, and if I die physically it simply means I was not yet Jesus Christ and because of God's authenticity and true holiness, Holiness can NOT BE IMPUTED it has to be authentic.  No pretend with God.

We must participate but have to know that that participation is and what it requires and what it produces.  Jesus said if a person keep my words they SHALL NEVER DIE.  If we die it means we were not keeping ALL His words ALL the time.  We will be brought back in order to do it anyway.

God bless, Donken

[Seth]

Hi.,  RE reply 16.   Yes, there is a pruning if necessary, but if we see {understand} Jesus' witness clearly as to what we are to be like then we can also be saved from much labour pains by Jesus Christ that way also.

God only has one son, no matter how many individuals there are.  God's seed always bears exactly true in the end.  We all are destined to be Jesus Christ THE son of God and be one with the father forever... eternal life.

I agree that God has one son, and the most important aspect of the pruning process is continuing to abide in him. Those who continue in him are pruned. But, it's possible to cease abiding in him, and that is the branch that bears no fruit, whithers and dies, and is cut off and "burned."

[sheila]

but lest we forget..if a man's works 'not abide' then he shall suffer loss..but be saved.. as.through fire.

     is this not a branch snatched from the fire.  put a clean turban on his head[mind of Christ/write my laws in your heart]

   take off the filthy garments..........I will put a new spirit in you and write my law in your hearts

[donken]

Isa 33:10  Now will I rise, saith the LORD; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself.
Isa 33:11  Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, as fire, shall devour you.
Isa 33:12  And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire.
Isa 33:13  Hear, ye that are far off, what I have done; and, ye that are near, acknowledge my might.
Isa 33:14  The *SINNERS IN*  Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the **HYPOCRITES**
Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

These passages are talking about believers who are not really walking as Jesus asks us.  Judgment BEGINS, and must begin, at the HOUSE OR TEMPLE OF GOD.

We NEED THIS JUDGMENT.  All must appear at this judgment seat of Christ.  And, that is HOW WE APPEAR as Christ Jesus in the world, through the process that goes on at this "judgment\wisdom seat"