Many churches seem to try to find ways to define what exactly the kingdom is like. Many people assume that you sit around the throne all day praising God. Some old pictures portrayed the Saints sitting in stands watching sinners burn in hell. Others depicted saints sitting around the throne of God in some pious church like activities. In the adventures of Huck Finn, Mrs. Watson told Huck that in heaven, he would get to play a harp all day long. At Medjudgorje, the Children were shown heaven, and it was nothing but some large white space where people were dressed in white robes singing and praying. Nothing else but a couple flower pots.
This got me to thinking that many religions teach of a Heaven like a place where you just go off to some snooty little cloud paradise in meaningless bliss.
I think that the Jehovahs Witnesses have it right about a paradise restored earth. Plus I remember in Eric Stetsons book, he said that Salvation has a greater meaning, not just some place of Meaningless bliss. But many churches seem to teach of a heaven of infinite blandness where only one kind of person exists, in extreme dullness.
"Eye has not seen, ear has not heard what God has ready"
All of these examples are men attempting to use their "imaginations" to depict something that only the Spirit can truly reveal. And even then, to take a spiritual experience and try to put it in natural words is still something that we struggle with as well.
To say it is this or surely, it's going to be that, is to accept a limited mind's depiction of something beyond all comprehension. And that would be a tragedy in and of itself.
Luk 17:21 nor shall they say, Lo, here; or lo, there; for lo, the reign of God is within you.'
You mean we don't have to die to get to heaven?
None of us can really say what heaven is like. I would like to think we worship, rule, work, create, love, make love, eat, drink, game, sport much like here on earth. But, I would imagine that my imagination is quite inadequate. But, with all things I trust Christ and I know it will be wonderful. That is good enough for me.
I'd call it a sample of heaven, kingdom of God within you. But Gods heaven is within and without, complete with a new glorified body.
Jesus said He was in heaven while here on earth. Did He call it a sample?
Interesting, and may bear more study, is when Jesus said "the kingdom is within you", He was speaking to the Pharisees. Another interpretation of that word/phrase is 'among you' - which could mean it's in some, among others?
Quote from: thinktank on October 03, 2010, 02:30:28 AM
I'd call it a sample of heaven, kingdom of God within you. But Gods heaven is within and without, complete with a new glorified body.
:thumbsup: .. I'd have to think of an optional word to use than sample, but it
does appear to be a down payment, a "step" - with more to come... "after you had heard the Word of Truth and believed in Him also, that you too were sealed [secured] with the promised Pure Spirit, which is the
down payment of our inheritance".. Eph. 1:13,14
18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?
25But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance
we wait eagerly for it. Romans 8
So who is the liar?
Luke or Paul to the Ephesians?
I wouldn't use the word liar, personally. I think it's a matter of interpretation and revelation, and they fit together if properly divided. I'd just suggest an attempt to do so, not that I already do have it all figured out, because I don't.
I think it's a s/w complicated discussion. What it means to be seated with Him in heavenly places, where He is and was...while still here in this "present evil age", with our down payment, waiting for the glory to come...and I think there's a pretty wide range of interpretation, from what I've seen. I believe it takes some careful sorting out, for sure. :thumbsup:
I think it's somehow both, but I don't personally know exactly what that means in every detail.
Quote from: jabcat on October 03, 2010, 03:06:54 AM
I wouldn't use the word liar, personally. I think it's a matter of interpretation and revelation, and they fit together if properly divided. I'd just suggest an attempt to do so, not that I already do have it all figured out, because I don't.
:thumbsup:
To me one must look at the plan of God and it doesn't make sense that God would only give us half of heaven. I'm looking forward to experiencing the full heaven experience.
3Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not
yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
Well, that just brings us right round to the original question that I posed after micah's post, doesn't it?
Quote from: thinktank on October 03, 2010, 03:20:32 AM
To me one must look at the plan of God and it doesn't make sense that God would only give us half of heaven. I'm looking forward to experiencing the full heaven experience.
3Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
And if our hope in Christ is only for this life, we are more to be pitied than anyone in the world. I Cor. 15:19
But again, I think both are correct..we are somehow in the kingdom and in the heavenlies with Him now - as He is and was - while awaiting the fullness of our inheritance. There's a wide range of beliefs on how that all fits. :2c:
Yes, but we must read down to:
23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
For we do have hope, not ONLY for ourselves in this life but also for those that have gone before us.
Personally, I agree with the whole notion of a restored earth with no more sin and death, where Heaven is more of a state of things. Hell=used by the traditionalists as a state of Judgment, though in truth not eternal. No different than bliss. The main reason I do believe in restoration of the Earth is because all the scriptures speaking of restoration, and reconciliation say "All things", animals, plants, rocks, earth, universe. "Every Creature", plants and animals. But yes, most of those descriptions are just metaphors.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 03, 2010, 03:03:23 AM
So who is the liar?
Luke or Paul to the Ephesians?
How are you Beloved? You seem to be a bit edgy. Things ok with you?
Absolutely!
lol
Read up three posts!
Aren't you glad?
I know of a man who teaches that we can enter the kingdom of God while on earth if we become sinless, sanctified if you will, made righteous. But that only very very few will actually be made righteous while on this earth (the 144,000) and that most will have to go through the LOF to be completely purified. He states that we must be taught of God and God alone if we are to be made righteous, that we must get quiet and listen to Him and obey what He speaks to us, then He will remove our sin as we obey Him and become righteous. I am just giving a possible solution to the question of whether we can enter the kingdom while on earth, not necessarily saying I agree or disagree (as I can see where this could lead...)
Peace.
Do we enter it or does it enter us?
Quote from: Universalist Catholic on October 02, 2010, 02:18:55 AM
I think that the Jehovahs Witnesses have it right about a paradise restored earth. Plus I remember in Eric Stetsons book, he said that Salvation has a greater meaning, not just some place of Meaningless bliss. But many churches seem to teach of a heaven of infinite blandness where only one kind of person exists, in extreme dullness.
Dispensationalist Baptists also (rightly) teach a restored paradise on earth.
Psa 139:5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thy hand upon me.
Psa 139:6 O knowledge too wonderful for me! it is high, I cannot [attain] unto it.
Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? and whither flee from thy presence?
Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into the heavens thou art there; or if I make my bed in Sheol, behold, thou [art there];
Psa 139:9 [If] I take the wings of the dawn [and] dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
Psa 139:10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
IMO;
A restored Eden, alone, would still be an "in-part" realm.
By us descending and ascending the Father gets back something greater than He created.
Jabcat, "Interesting, and may bear more study, is when Jesus said "the kingdom is within you", He was speaking to the Pharisees. Another interpretation of that word/phrase is 'among you' - which could mean it's in some, among others?"
I went and looked up Luke 17:21, in about 30 tranlations, most of the early 1800 to the 1900 use the word "within" after that it is "among or in the midst" Rotherham "among" Emp Diag. "in the midst."
For me, I need to re-look at that verse and re-study, it makes a difference in my reasoning. Thanks
Heaven is one of those things that doesn't get touched on often, either in the Bible or in churches. I know it's been bugging my mom lately, ever since my grandmother passed away. She'd been fretting about whether she'll recognize her in Heaven, or whether God basically strips us of all our memories and emotions so we no longer feel any personal attachments towards anything.
As such, until we get there, Heaven is pretty much left up to our imaginations. For the record, people who have had near death experiences claim that Heaven, or the afterlife, is a very mental realm with unconditional love.
Personally, I think Heaven is going to be something along the lines of the Garden of Eden. This was Earth as God intended it to be, and I think we are going to be restored to that effect. Animals got along, perhaps even spoke (hey, Eve didn't seem concered over a talking snake), you didn't have to worry about wars, disease, chemicals in the food, and all that junk. I definately feel that we'll be able to recognize each other, too.
Think about it, God gave people emotions, and all those emotions were present before the fall, I believe. All of them - love, fear, anger, joy, peace, etc. Some of them simply had no reason to manifest.
I always put it this way.
God made everything Good, but his purpose is to make everything Glorious.
Quote from: Akira Takahashi on October 07, 2010, 06:41:16 PM
Heaven is one of those things that doesn't get touched on often, either in the Bible or in churches. I know it's been bugging my mom lately, ever since my grandmother passed away. She'd been fretting about whether she'll recognize her in Heaven, or whether God basically strips us of all our memories and emotions so we no longer feel any personal attachments towards anything.
Relationships are a fundamental part of a person's identity. God will not dissolve the unique identity of the beautiful creation (you, me, your grandmother, the garbage man down the street) he made, he will glorify them instead. Relationships will be become genuine, and true; the Kingdom of God is the rule of Truth, righteousness is genuine and true goodness.
You will recognise her, anyone who preaches otherwise has an agenda (like needing to buffer an emotional problem with Hell), misunderstands, or else has a spirit of Fear; God did not give us a spirit of fear.
God put desires in your heart, relationships are amongst these. Even in the Garden, sinless, and innocent, walking with God unhindered every day - Adam was alone, and so God made for him a helper; the first human relationship was born and it was very good.
QuoteAs such, until we get there, Heaven is pretty much left up to our imaginations. For the record, people who have had near death experiences claim that Heaven, or the afterlife, is a very mental realm with unconditional love.
Remember, Heaven is not our home - New Creation is (which includes Heaven, and the supernatural spheres what ever those may be)
All of Reality material, and otherwise is our equal inheritance with Jesus Christ.
QuotePersonally, I think Heaven is going to be something along the lines of the Garden of Eden. This was Earth as God intended it to be, and I think we are going to be restored to that effect. Animals got along, perhaps even spoke (hey, Eve didn't seem concered over a talking snake), you didn't have to worry about wars, disease, chemicals in the food, and all that junk. I definately feel that we'll be able to recognize each other, too.
:thumbsup:
QuoteThink about it, God gave people emotions, and all those emotions were present before the fall, I believe. All of them - love, fear, anger, joy, peace, etc. Some of them simply had no reason to manifest.
Amen. I once heard that even Guilt is a gift from God; because it drives us to the Cross, but once we go to the Cross, guilt has served its purpose.
Even fear can be an elating joy - if you've ever been startled by someone you love when they pop out of a corner and say "boo". ^^
Heaven, perhaps, is God's Throne.
God is the Father of Spirits.
If God rules your spirit and He sits on your throne... (!)
Joshua 24:15;
But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."
James 4:
7; Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8; Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 07, 2010, 04:58:34 PM
Jabcat, "Interesting, and may bear more study, is when Jesus said "the kingdom is within you", He was speaking to the Pharisees. Another interpretation of that word/phrase is 'among you' - which could mean it's in some, among others?"
I went and looked up Luke 17:21, in about 30 tranlations, most of the early 1800 to the 1900 use the word "within" after that it is "among or in the midst" Rotherham "among" Emp Diag. "in the midst."
For me, I need to re-look at that verse and re-study, it makes a difference in my reasoning. Thanks
Keep us posted! :thumbsup:
Hi;
Interesting concept is shared in Col 3;3 " For you have died and your life is hid together with the Christ in God,- as soon the Christ, our life, shall be made manifest, then you also shall be made manifest together with Him."
* For you have died is stated and yet we are still alive. Seems to say that we are together with Christ as far as our Father is concerned so much so that He no longer sees the old sinful self but holds us as righteous in Christ. Deepens the meaning of In Christ.
Amen to that!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Amen.
God is not mad at anyone as He looks through the eyes of Christ.