Sacrifice for sin

[shawn]

Hi Micah,

A very clear post.
A question for you. (and others)
Jeus paid for all sin. Does that mean for example Hitler goes straight to heaven without even mentioning he did something wrong? What's the use of judgement if the only verdict the judge speaks is "not guilty"?

As one of the "others' I'll jump in on this one . . .
This question you pose WW is one that is a challenge for just about every living, breathing individual to accept.  The reason I see that to be, is because we believe in justice.  We believe that when someone takes away from another, justice needs to step in and the one with loss should be reimbursed and the one who did the taking should be punished.  That's common logic.  It works in society quite well when there are no hidden agendas or political incentives behind the scenes taking place.

So when it comes to Spiritual issues, we assume it would only stand to reason that we would apply the same logic.  BUT . . . WE . . CAN'T.  We can't apply natural reasoning to spiritual principles.  I've soap-boxed this before.  But I think it's a huge, HUGE, deal that can't be emphasized enough.  Using the logic of my extremely limited mind with the boundless, unimaginable spiritual principles that govern and have dominon and authority over "this" realm is the repeatable crime that the mainline church does on a daily basis.

I would think if "anyone" could grasp the magnitude of what Christ did it would be the people of UR influences.  If we can see, understand, and proclaim to others that what Jesus did 2 days ago on the cross is actually powerful enough to redeem every living man of the flesh, born into this earth from Adam to now, regardless as to whether or not they even know or acknowledge it even happened, and NOT just for a tiny percentage of those who "do" confess his grand salvation; if we can proclaim that, then why is it such a hurdle for us to take the next leap and see that when Jesus stated IT IS FINISHED, he meant every word. 

Salvation is not "Jesus" AND .  . . punishment for a brief time.  Or Jesus AND personal payment for the really bad things we did.  It's Jesus and NOTHING. Whne I made the choice to follow him, there were no side agreements for him to bring my "natural-realm" justice to the really bad people.  That offer wasn't what he put on the table.  The salvation offereed was for ME and that's all that mattered to the Father at the time.  He wasn't attempting to appease my personal convictions about other people to abused the power of this realm beyond anything my mind could come up with on it's own.

He was just looking to set "me" free and that's what I agreed to.

It's like the story about the farmer who went looking for workers and he brought them on board at different times of the day and at the end of the day, the wages were all the same.  Those that worked longer got the same reward as those who were just brought in.  We are trying to do the same thing when we try to preach that some people will be greatly discipliened while others just a little . . .

The sacrifice that paid for all of it, was a once-and-for-all kind of payment.  No amnedments needed.  If he can save the whole world in one shot, what would make us think that he couldn't also forgive every sin in that same world-saving act?

I think what presents a problem to many believers is the common theme running throughout scripture.  Sin=death, the many portions of scripture concerning destruction to those who do not believe, and the call to holiness...not falling away etc.  Certainly on the surface it appears that belief in Christ=everlasting life.  And, refusing Christ=destruction.

So, I believe it's reasonable to ask does one have to accept the payment for their own sins.  If they refuse Christ...what happens to these people?  For me, it's not about worst sinners and the worst of bad people.  It's about refusal to believe. 

So does destruction=purification?  Or does destruction mean destruction?  In my mind, unless the Holy Spirit reveals this secret to me I won't know until after I die.  But, if it does indeed mean purification I would assume the "worst of sinners" can be saved as well.  If it's indeed destruction, I do not see that as unjust as we ALL deserve destruction.

[jabcat]

yeah, not to argue either, but I see it as both.  destruction (of certain things, aspects) as a means of purification.  the old in me being destroyed so the New can be all in all (in me)...

[shawn]

yeah, not to argue either, but I see it as both.  destruction (of certain things, aspects) as a means of purification.  the old in me being destroyed so the New can be all in all (in me)...

I think that is entirely possible.

[jabcat]

I know you see it this way at least to a degree, and hope that it's totally true.

[shawn]

I know you see it this way at least to a degree, and hope that it's totally true.

Personally, I think it's impossible to know for sure without direct Holy Spirit revelation on the subject.  What I do know is we deserve destruction.  I know that Jesus paid the price for all of mankind and allowed a way for us to have relationship with God...to be restored.  What I do not know is if people who do not choose Jesus can be reconciled after death.  I do have great hope in this possibility.  I know I have grown in my walk and in my knowledge since being part of this community.  I know iron sharpens iron here and that has to mean something.

[jabcat]

Glad you're here.

[shawn]

Glad you're here.

Thank you Jab...I'm glad to be here.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Ransom, a redemption price, was in the OT where He commanded them to redeem (with silver) the firstborn creature (thinking it was an ass?) or break it's neck. They also had to pay to the temple a 1/2 shekel for the firstborn son to redeem him. This is why silver speaks of redemption and the sockets of the posts of the Tabernacle had sockets of silver holding them in place upright.

Contrast with Judas whose neck would have been broken from hanging, and whose silver brought death instead of life. Blessings....

[WhiteWings]

I'm not saying that all posts answering/refering to my Hitler statement are wrong. But I think most don't understand what I'm trying to say.
I'll try to take a shortcut by using perhaps to black/white reasoning.

Wages of sin is death. All have sinned.
That simply means ET, ED and UR never existed. Simply because the natural death was the end of everything. Exactly the view of non religious people.

Jesus made a change. After that natural death everyone gets resurrection (at different times)
That's what He payed for.

He did not pay for avoiding other judgements like "refiners fire", "goat and sheep" etc

[WhiteWings]

I think what presents a problem to many believers is the common theme running throughout scripture.  Sin=death, the many portions of scripture concerning destruction to those who do not believe, and the call to holiness...not falling away etc.  Certainly on the surface it appears that belief in Christ=everlasting life.  And, refusing Christ=destruction.

So, I believe it's reasonable to ask does one have to accept the payment for their own sins.  If they refuse Christ...what happens to these people?  For me, it's not about worst sinners and the worst of bad people.  It's about refusal to believe. 

So does destruction=purification?  Or does destruction mean destruction?  In my mind, unless the Holy Spirit reveals this secret to me I won't know until after I die.  But, if it does indeed mean purification I would assume the "worst of sinners" can be saved as well.  If it's indeed destruction, I do not see that as unjust as we ALL deserve destruction.

Shawn you should read the Bible through the eyes of a farmer. That's very important! Read Cardinals posr about Tribulation. A word that almost sounds as bad as hell. But it's just farming equipment. A farmer works all day for a big harvest. At the end of the season he uses all kind of equipment to maximize quality and quantity of the harvest.

Just look at it from your own profession. The things you do often look weird for none doctors. You cut out things. You use needles and knifes. You put metal plates and pins in a body. You give people stuff that has names similar to toxic waste.
But still it's commonly understood you are doing very positive things for the patient instead of negative things.

Maybe every Bible student should go to a farming school for a year  :winkgrin:

(http://www.clker.com/cliparts/8/l/O/9/b/2/farmer-smiley-th.png)
Howdy Doc

[WhiteWings]

:cloud9: Ransom, a redemption price, was in the OT where He commanded them to redeem (with silver) the firstborn creature (thinking it was an ass?) or break it's neck. They also had to pay to the temple a 1/2 shekel for the firstborn son to redeem him. This is why silver speaks of redemption and the sockets of the posts of the Tabernacle had sockets of silver holding them in place upright.

Contrast with Judas whose neck would have been broken from hanging, and whose silver brought death instead of life. Blessings....

I disagree with that. Without the silver of Judas Jesus's death would be useless.  :2c:

[shawn]

I think what presents a problem to many believers is the common theme running throughout scripture.  Sin=death, the many portions of scripture concerning destruction to those who do not believe, and the call to holiness...not falling away etc.  Certainly on the surface it appears that belief in Christ=everlasting life.  And, refusing Christ=destruction.

So, I believe it's reasonable to ask does one have to accept the payment for their own sins.  If they refuse Christ...what happens to these people?  For me, it's not about worst sinners and the worst of bad people.  It's about refusal to believe. 

So does destruction=purification?  Or does destruction mean destruction?  In my mind, unless the Holy Spirit reveals this secret to me I won't know until after I die.  But, if it does indeed mean purification I would assume the "worst of sinners" can be saved as well.  If it's indeed destruction, I do not see that as unjust as we ALL deserve destruction.

Shawn you should read the Bible through the eyes of a farmer. That's very important! Read Cardinals posr about Tribulation. A word that almost sounds as bad as hell. But it's just farming equipment. A farmer works all day for a big harvest. At the end of the season he uses all kind of equipment to maximize quality and quantity of the harvest.

Just look at it from your own profession. The things you do often look weird for none doctors. You cut out things. You use needles and knifes. You put metal plates and pins in a body. You give people stuff that has names similar to toxic waste.
But still it's commonly understood you are doing very positive things for the patient instead of negative things.

Maybe every Bible student should go to a farming school for a year  :winkgrin:

(http://www.clker.com/cliparts/8/l/O/9/b/2/farmer-smiley-th.png)
Howdy Doc

I can understand that.  I suppose I am just stuck on knowing whether a person can accept Christ after death.  The only support of this notion that I can recall is this...and it's very strong.

1 Pet 3:18-20 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, in order to bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, {19} in which also he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison, {20} who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.


Unless I'm misunderstanding the passage that seems to support the notion of some people accepting Christ after death. 

[Molly]

Why would it be Payed  to Satan

Revelation 9:11
11They have as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit. His name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek he is called Apollyon.


[Footnotes: Abaddon means destruction; Apollyon means destroyer ]



Ephesians 2:2

2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—



But the LORD is a refuge to his people,
   a stronghold to the people of Israel.

--Joel 3:16



Exodus 15:13
Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed: thou hast guided them in thy strength unto thy holy habitation.

[Cardinal]

:cloud9: Ransom, a redemption price, was in the OT where He commanded them to redeem (with silver) the firstborn creature (thinking it was an ass?) or break it's neck. They also had to pay to the temple a 1/2 shekel for the firstborn son to redeem him. This is why silver speaks of redemption and the sockets of the posts of the Tabernacle had sockets of silver holding them in place upright.

Contrast with Judas whose neck would have been broken from hanging, and whose silver brought death instead of life. Blessings....

I disagree with that. Without the silver of Judas Jesus's death would be useless.  :2c:

:cloud9: Yes, but the MOTIVE of the heart was wrong. What the enemy meant for evil, God meant for good. You're looking at the end result, I'm looking at the process. Blessings.....

[WhiteWings]

The motive is an other discussion :winkgrin:
Yes, I look at the end result.
But I also look at the process.
If Judas just kept the money for himself Jesus died for nothing.

[WhiteWings]

I can understand that.  I suppose I am just stuck on knowing whether a person can accept Christ after death.  The only support of this notion that I can recall is this...and it's very strong.

1 Pet 3:18-20 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, in order to bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, {19} in which also he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison, {20} who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.


Unless I'm misunderstanding the passage that seems to support the notion of some people accepting Christ after death.

All the farming parables are about an active farmer and passive wheat/Barley/etc. I think that should be a hint.
Jesus is also the fisher of men. Fish actively try to escape the fisher.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Good points, WW..... :thumbsup:

[jabcat]

...he who was called while free, is Christ's slave.

You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men.   I Cor. 7: 22,23