I hope I am not coming across as a bad person here. I don't think I every had the guts to ask these question where people might think I was going to hell : :eek:
But when I read Romans 9:3 something did not click. Does this mean that Paul was so full of love he would have given up his hope? People seem to think he was so magnaminous he would have gone to "hell" for his people.....really?
That makes me come to my own problem......flesh. Selfishness. I always felt I was saved in the sense I was saved by grace not of works, And I have received the seal of the holy spirit dwelling in me. I speak in tongues and I can pray in the spirit. To me that was my only proof I had eternal life even when I was living in very bad sin. I know that we need to crucify our flesh and suffer to work out salvation in our body and soul. At least that is what I beleive now.
Thing is who wants to suffer in this life if there is no reward? I need to see some tangible evidence of what I get out of it to give up things. I need to have a tangible hope to motivate a "once saved always saved" nominal believer like me.
So How could Paul say he would be cursed from Christ...Is he saying he wanted to be cut off from Christ???? How insane is that?
And here is the big question;
Being Jesus was the Son of God and had perfect blood. Since He knew the scripture and His father better than anyone. How big was it a sacrifice for Him to get crucified if He Knew he was going to be resurrected in three days (Jonah) and ascend to the right hand of His Father. I can see His motive.
Could that have been selfish. What is it to die to your self? What is it to be Selfless? Would Jesus have cut Him self off from God for eternity to save us?
Hope someone has some insight on this.
Quote from: thetruthprospector on May 06, 2014, 09:42:39 PM
Thing is who wants to suffer in this life if there is no reward? I need to see some tangible evidence of what I get out of it to give up things. I need to have a tangible hope to motivate a "once saved always saved" nominal believer like me.
For me the reward in this life is union with God. I have no idea what the next life will be. Paul could not walk away from Christ. The life that his kinsman were rejecting was the present life in Christ. Once saved always saved has it's eyes on a future heaven rather then the kingdom of God that is now.
Quote from: thetruthprospector on May 06, 2014, 09:42:39 PM
So How could Paul say he would be cursed from Christ...Is he saying he wanted to be cut off from Christ???? How insane is that?
It is not really something that is available to Paul. I'm thinking it is some sort of figure of speech?
Cutting off and grafting in are seasonal. They don't last for all eternity.
Quote from: thetruthprospector on May 06, 2014, 09:42:39 PM
And here is the big question;
Being Jesus was the Son of God and had perfect blood. Since He knew the scripture and His father better than anyone. How big was it a sacrifice for Him to get crucified if He Knew he was going to be resurrected in three days (Jonah) and ascend to the right hand of His Father. I can see His motive.
The earthly ministry of Jesus Christ is all about love......then and now.
The giving of His life was an act of love. I'm sure he could see the reward as bringing "many sons" set free from the oppression of separation and death. He did not do it for Himself. He did it for us. That is love. The Lordship of Jesus Christ is the Lordship of love.
Quote from: thetruthprospector on May 06, 2014, 09:42:39 PM
Could that have been selfish. What is it to die to your self? What is it to be Selfless? Would Jesus have cut Him self off from God for eternity to save us?
Hope someone has some insight on this.
For me, I'm in relationship to God and Christ for the benefits. Is that selfish? Yes. Dying to selfish motivation is a daily practice. I find choosing love over self to be a wonderfully satisfying and exciting endeavor. The spiritual warfare that is in the individual life of the believer is a wonderful part of what Christ has given us. We don't just war, we win!
Is that selfish? Nah, it is life. Why have the eternal life if it is not to be enjoyed?
Love is the Power For Abundant Living!
Quote from: thetruthprospector on May 06, 2014, 09:42:39 PM
Thing is who wants to suffer in this life if there is no reward? I need to see some tangible evidence of what I get out of it to give up things. I need to have a tangible hope to motivate a "once saved always saved" nominal believer like me.
So How could Paul say he would be cursed from Christ...Is he saying he wanted to be cut off from Christ???? How insane is that?
Just a few thoughts on Paul, possibilites. One possibility is, he was speaking in hyperbole to make a point. Another could be, Israel's cutting off is temporary - they will be restored, as would Paul have been had he been (temporarily) cut off (not that it could be done, but that he was willing).
A few other thoughts I had in general; (I know some others see it s/w differently, and I won't engage in direct, ongoing argument of it. Let each of us seek the Lord for understanding);
from another "once saved always saved" believer :) - (saved by grace through faith, not of works, not of yourselves...free gift..and the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable)
As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. Eph. 4:1
so that you would walk in a manner worthy of the God who calls you into His own kingdom and glory 1 Thes. 2:12
we love Him because He first loved us
But mostly, as ed just indicated;
Christ's love constrains us...One died for all 2 Cor. 5:14 The kingdom is now (righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit). Peace, comfort, knowing whatever comes, He is good, in control, and the end result is perfect. Through His Life, BEING ABLE TO HAVE AND LIVE IN THAT ASSURANCE AND HOPE.
IMO, we don't live a certain way to "earn" it..we live for Him because He first loved us, and because He lives and works through us, according to His initiative ("so therefore it doesn't depend on him who runs or wills, but on God Who shows mercy") and our surrender.. A result of grace, not to earn His favor. He favored us on the cross and when He called, chose, renewed, and filled each one according to HIS timing. I believe He wants children who walk closely and in obedience, not always kicking against His leading...all through His empowerment, and a result of His saving and keeping actions within us.
p.s. I believe Paul's statements about the olive tree, being grafted in/cut out, is primarily addressing God's (for lack of a better phrase) "administration of times"..i.e., that [natural] Israel (Jewish religion) had been set aside for a time, the Gentiles/pagans (us) have been turned to and blessed - but that we should not abandon or disparage natural Israel (God knows who that is exactly) as many are doing. "so all Israel shall be saved". Paul was blessed to have been called out of spiritual darkness and into the group of ecclesia in Christ, where there is neither Jew nor Gentile through the blood of Jesus - yet his Jewish brethren remained veiled, still looking for their messiah - the One they missed, but will be made aware of in the renewal. :2c:
Ed and Jabcat,
Thanks! what you are saying is witnessing to my spirit! I Am slowly growing not be cause I have to but I want to. It is a slow process. But it is happening to this old dude at 61 year young, Praise the Lord!! Ed I made it through the struggle I wrote you about. But the grace of God. I am always having patience being "worked out "katergazomai?" bu trials. I don't like trials and suffering. But it is necessary I know. I seem to have had some real battles in my mind, sleepless nights, praying and praying to hang in there. I did and things worked out. Can't wait for the next Trial!! I wish I could mean that but I don't.
I am so encouraged by your words!!
Fred
PS GReat website. It took me this long to dump my echatology! And if it was three years ago I would have not looked at this site.
:thumbsup:
"He will never leave you nor forsake you"
It's a promise.