it appears to me from my personal view point that the "faith in Christ" verses in bible scripture
should say "the faith OF Christ" because it is not
faith of our own that does anything regarding salvation. it is the faith of Christ the word of heaven and earth that brings us faith through
grace and that faith not of our own.
would enjoy to hear your thoughts and viewpoints on this subject.
Fire Walker
Quote from: fire walker on March 03, 2018, 10:30:35 PM
it appears to me from my personal view point that the "faith in Christ" verses in bible scripture
should say "the faith OF Christ" because it is not
faith of our own that does anything regarding salvation. it is the faith of Christ the word of heaven and earth that brings us faith through
grace and that faith not of our own.
would enjoy to hear your thoughts and viewpoints on this subject.
Fire Walker
Wonderful to see you back again Firewalker , :dsunny:
I agree it is Jesus Christ faith being poured out by the Holy Spirit [every good gift and perfect gift is from above the Father of lights ] upon all flesh
That we might hear His voice and Live
He alone is the author and finisher of our faith poured out everything of Himself giving gifts to men Eph 4
Hebrews 12 The Call to Endurance
1Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses,
let us throw off every encumbrance and the sin that so easily entangles,
and let us run with endurance the race set out for us.
2Let us fix our eyes on Jesus,
the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3 Consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart....
God bless !!!
Quote from: fire walker on March 03, 2018, 10:30:35 PM
it appears to me from my personal view point that the "faith in Christ" verses in bible scripture
should say "the faith OF Christ" because it is not
faith of our own that does anything regarding salvation. it is the faith of Christ the word of heaven and earth that brings us faith through
grace and that faith not of our own.
would enjoy to hear your thoughts and viewpoints on this subject.
Fire Walker
I.M.O this is why the head cloth was separated from the body cloth in the tomb- Christ is the head- ergo no head no life.
Paul specifies " it is no longer I who lives, but Christ who lives in me."
Saved not by works so that no one can boast.
We are told to take up our cross daily- the cross, for me, being the symbol of putting to death personal effort.
Paul observes that the stuff he was doing was Christ, not him [1 Cor 15;10]
Quote from: rosered on March 03, 2018, 11:11:40 PM
Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfector of our faith,
The pioneer- the chief leader- the prime author;
So indeed, the Faith OF Christ.
Many so-called leaders have tried to earn their brownie points/salvation so that they are further up the chain of command.
This is totally opposite to what Christ demonstrated about power when considering the verses in Phil 2;6;11] and that specifically after stating that we should value others more than self.
Paul had earlier made the point to the Corinthians that we should not compare ourselves with ourselves [2 Cor 10;12] which seems to indicate we should be equal in value without earning our position. That then seems to show our security has to come from somewhere else- ergo totally Christ.
I will say this.....I don't even begin to pretend that I know the formula, or the way it happens, but there does seem to be something valued, concerning a connection made, between the Holy Spirit seeking us, and our acceptance of believing in Jesus as our Savior. We somehow 'see' the whole process, either gradually, or in a short span of time, sometimes within moments, differently.
Personally, I don't have one of those amazing moments, that several of my close friends have had, when they suddenly believe. I never remember not believing, as I was taught from birth, about God.
Many years ago, as a Deacon in Training, in the Lutheran Church, I learned this: The only thing we can do of our own is to tell God, "NO". For all other matters, we need the Holy Spirit's guidance.
And, I still believe that.
But, it does seem that there is some spiritual transformation, when we somehow come to accept that faith. We become an open vessel, and able to receive the message, and it changes us.
Romans 12:
1Therefore I urge you, brothers, on account of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 2Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to discern what is the good, pleasing, and perfect will of God.
3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but think of yourself with sober judgment, according to the measure of faith God has given you. 4Just as each of us has one body with many members, and not all members have the same function, 5so in Christ we who are many are one body, and each member belongs to one another.
6We have different gifts according to the grace given us. If someone's gift is prophecy, let him use it in proportion to his faith; 7if it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is giving, let him give generously; if it is leading, let him lead with diligence; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.
Ephesians 2:
1As for you, you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. 3We all lived among them at one time in the cravings of our flesh, indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.
4But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ, even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.
When we all get to Heaven, we will understand the process. For now, we rejoice in our gift of faith.
D.
[size=78%]your responses are appreciated. there are verses in scripture that help lead me to clear my natural (carnal) mind empty of self centered thoughts [/size]
[/size][size=78%] Being emptied of self leaves me receptive to the holy spirits[/size]
[/size][size=78%]work being done in the world.[/size]
[/size][size=78%] those scriptures are romans3: 9-10, these verses are seldom [/size]
ever discussed in most religious christian groups, christian churches[/size][size=78%], there are many other scriptures that also seem to never be discussed or considered by main line traditional christian churches because apparently they are contrary to the dogma of traditions.[/size]
[/size][size=78%] fire walker[/size]
[/size]
sorry for all the numbers and computer junk in my previous post, i didn't think
that would show up on the actual post or I would have deleted them
fire walker
Firewalker ;your responses are appreciated. there are verses in scripture that help lead me to clear my natural (carnal) mind empty of self centered thoughts
I am glad to see you again after such a long time brother
Firewalker says ; Being emptied of self leaves me receptive to the holy spirits
work being done in the world.
:iagree:
those scriptures are romans3: 9-10, these verses are seldom
ever discussed in most religious christian groups, christian churches, there are many other scriptures that also seem
to never be discussed or considered by main line traditional christian churches because apparently they are contrary to the dogma of traditions. fire walker
So true there is none righteous, no not one , God is making sure none of us can bragg in anything but Him :2c:
We have much to look forward too learning of Him ,as we leave all this death behind us :dsunny:
Quote from: rosered on March 04, 2018, 09:34:45 PM
So true there is none righteous, no not one , God is making sure none of us can bragg in anything but Him :2c:
We have much to look forward too learning of Him ,as we leave all this death behind us :dsunny:
Amen, Amen!
...and Amen to all of the above! :thumbsup:
Romans 1:17 For in it
the righteousness of God (not us) is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."
Quote from: marie glen on March 04, 2018, 11:15:07 PM
Quote from: rosered on March 04, 2018, 09:34:45 PM
So true there is none righteous, no not one , God is making sure none of us can bragg in anything but Him :2c:
We have much to look forward too learning of Him ,as we leave all this death behind us :dsunny:
Amen, Amen!
...and Amen to all of the above! :thumbsup:
Romans 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God (not us) is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."
Amen girl, I was going to use that one :laughing7: but so Glad you did Marie ..
Love the grace too sis D!!!
Romans 3;20 " So no flesh will at all be justified before Him by the works of the law,
rather, through the law comes the knowledge of sin."
Vs 23-27 " For there is no distinction, since all have sinned and continue to fall short of the glory of God,
HELD GUILTLESS BY HIS GRACE THROUGH THE REDEMPTION THAT IS IN CHRIST JESUS,
Whom God sent as an atoning sacrifice by His blood obtainable through faith.
This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because God in His forbearance passes over the previous sins.
It was also to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one
who has faith in Jesus."
Romans 5;10 " For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son,
Much more, now that we are reconciled, we will be saved BY HIS LIFE."
vs 16,17 " And the gift is not like the result of that one man's sin,
for the judgment following the one transgression led to punishment,
but THE FREE GIFT FOLLOWING THE MANY TRANSGRESSIONS LED TO JUSTIFICATION.
For if by the transgression of the one man death reigned through that one man,
much more will those who receive the abundance of grace, and the GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS reign in life,
through the One, Jesus Christ."
All pointing out the use of the law.
Plenty of people recognise the need for faith.
For me, the key question is, "Whose Faith?"
The inkling about that seems to be what Paul points out to the Ephesians.
Eph 4;4-7 " There is ONE body, and One Spirit, just as you were called to the One hope of your calling;
One Lord, One Faith, One baptism, One God and Father of ALL,
Who is above All and through All and in All.
But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of the gift of Christ."
This never got talked about in church either- the implication of the One faith, works, baptism, being Christ's faith, works, baptism...
NOT mine. Which states there can be no failure, since He paid in full nearly 2000 years before I was born!
Paul was not popular because this makes the flesh come up with the, 'Why bother?' excuse.
When we are born in the flesh we get no say in being conceived, or where we live- the spiritual is more powerful and complete, yet we are supposed to "claim" our position through self works- Paul's conversion does not have his efforts anywhere.
He recognised that he was a chief sinner, but had to go through this as an example of the things to come exceeding the things that were there at the time.
Each of us, at our appointed time, just like Paul, are coming to that position as children of our heavenly Father through the grace and salvation of our glorious Lord and saviour.
All amazingly inspirational and glorious when that concept is firmly grasped; there is no failure of what Christ planned and achieved for all mankind.
So, indeed Firewalker, none of that was talked about or recognised when I was in church. Christ was part of the church process, but not fully grasped. The reality of the complete sacrifice was over-looked.
Looking at the history of the Church it appears the Church body experienced far less problems within the body before Constantine (and his catholic bible)
made the catholic church and the catholic BIBLE the first state religion, then began all the divisions, splits and sects within the church body in the years that followed Constantine; churches attacking the faith of others outside their miserable religious clutches even naming the church a building.
Enjoy the day, fire walker
Quote from: Ross on March 05, 2018, 03:02:42 AM
Romans 3;20 " So no flesh will at all be justified before Him by the works of the law,
rather, through the law comes the knowledge of sin."
Vs 23-27 " For there is no distinction, since all have sinned and continue to fall short of the glory of God,
HELD GUILTLESS BY HIS GRACE THROUGH THE REDEMPTION THAT IS IN CHRIST JESUS,
Whom God sent as an atoning sacrifice by His blood obtainable through faith.
This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because God in His forbearance passes over the previous sins.
It was also to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one
who has faith in Jesus."
Romans 5;10 " For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son,
Much more, now that we are reconciled, we will be saved BY HIS LIFE."
vs 16,17 " And the gift is not like the result of that one man's sin,
for the judgment following the one transgression led to punishment,
but THE FREE GIFT FOLLOWING THE MANY TRANSGRESSIONS LED TO JUSTIFICATION.
For if by the transgression of the one man death reigned through that one man,
much more will those who receive the abundance of grace, and the GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS reign in life,
through the One, Jesus Christ."
All pointing out the use of the law.
Plenty of people recognise the need for faith.
For me, the key question is, "Whose Faith?"
The inkling about that seems to be what Paul points out to the Ephesians.
Eph 4;4-7 " There is ONE body, and One Spirit, just as you were called to the One hope of your calling;
One Lord, One Faith, One baptism, One God and Father of ALL,
Who is above All and through All and in All.
But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of the gift of Christ."
This never got talked about in church either- the implication of the One faith, works, baptism, being Christ's faith, works, baptism...
NOT mine. Which states there can be no failure, since He paid in full nearly 2000 years before I was born!
Paul was not popular because this makes the flesh come up with the, 'Why bother?' excuse.
When we are born in the flesh we get no say in being conceived, or where we live- the spiritual is more powerful and complete, yet we are supposed to "claim" our position through self works- Paul's conversion does not have his efforts anywhere.
He recognised that he was a chief sinner, but had to go through this as an example of the things to come exceeding the things that were there at the time.
Each of us, at our appointed time, just like Paul, are coming to that position as children of our heavenly Father through the grace and salvation of our glorious Lord and saviour.
All amazingly inspirational and glorious when that concept is firmly grasped; there is no failure of what Christ planned and achieved for all mankind.
So, indeed Firewalker, none of that was talked about or recognised when I was in church. Christ was part of the church process, but not fully grasped. The reality of the complete sacrifice was over-looked.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Ross,
Made an attempt to put up sunshine and thumbs up for your reply, however my keyboard isn't preforming as it should and actually I am not good at trouble shooting computer problems; So
thumbs up and sunshine to your reply.
Have a great day, fire walker
Quote from: Ross on March 05, 2018, 03:02:42 AM
for the judgment following the one transgression led to punishment
Lately I've been learning more how humanity is basically brainwashed, so scriptures are read a certain way.. When you first read "for the judgment following the one transgression led to punishment" the mind all too often habitually jumps to the idea of "hereafter" - and the punishment being talked about is afterlife punishment.. But if we reread the verse -
Quote
And the gift is not like the result of that one man's sin,
for the judgment following the one transgression led to punishment
- Adam and Eve were restricted from the garden and the tree of Life, immediately.. Things changed right away - the whole structure and substance of life was changed and that was and is the 'punishment' and the end result is death..
As we can also clearly see, the said "punishment" or penalty, "is death" -
For if by the transgression of the one man death reigned (in all, throughout all, and in the world reigned supreme)
[ and :banana: verse 18 -
Berean Literal Bible
So then, just as through one trespass, it is unto condemnation to all men, so also through one act of righteousness it is unto justification of life to all men.]
Quote from: fire walker on March 16, 2018, 07:19:33 PM
Looking at the history of the Church it appears the Church body experienced far less problems within the body before Constantine (and his catholic bible)
made the catholic church and the catholic BIBLE the first state religion, then began all the divisions, splits and sects within the church body in the years that followed Constantine; churches attacking the faith of others outside their miserable religious clutches even naming the church a building.
Enjoy the day, fire walker
:Chinscratch: ..that makes me wonder when the first subtle slipping away occurred.. did they slowly wander away from the central and dominant importance of God's Word(s) and begin instead to listen to men's word(s)? Man's words
about God's Word(s)? Lately I'm seeing our Father's Word(s) as a computer system that is programming us! (And we don't want to miss that programming, that's for sure!)
Yep, Constantine, and his days, managed to mix non and pre Christian ideas into the faith.. Sometimes we will hear people reference the horrible times in Europe that were wars and inquisitions, as being "Christian", but I think it was simply pagan disputes carried over - and of course we know it was 'religion' used for politics and power (rule). Terrible, terrible times.. the Church of England was just about as bad as the Church of Rome.. Definitely an age of state 'religion' (in the guise of 'Christianity').
:Chinscratch: about the
"building" - I think you are exactly right! I'm remembering how God told Abraham when he built an altar unto the LORD anywhere, it was to be stones stacked "with no tools taken to them" - no works of man's hands was to go into the altar and the building of it.. Because then it was considered corrupted.
:thumbsup: Marie..andyet in Ezekiel 1;8we seethe handsof a man[ word of God[come in flesh] by His spirit. :2c:
10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
I think we go to far in "break-down analytics" sometimes. This verse, a prime UR scripture, shows me that we labor and strive. We put our hope in, as well as our faith "in Christ".
That hope, and that faith, is also the hope "of Christ" within us and the faith of Christ within us,
"and that not of yourselves but it is the gift of God"
Sometimes the scriptures speak from our perspective within this mortal frame, sometimes from the perspective of eternal essences.
There is no conflict between the two, if we have wisdom and understanding and widen our comprehension. If we start telling the scriptures what they "ought to say" based on our theological preferences- unless it is based on clear translational error, we stray into dangerous territory, imo.