Reconciling Scriptures

[jabcat]

You may have noticed  :mshock:, there's been discussion recently in another thread about sin.  Multiple people have weighed in with various angles. 

Briefly, some note certain scriptures that address sin.  Others note scriptures or present ideas that love is the only thing, treat each other well, etc., while appearing to ignore all the other scriptures that teach about sin.  A third group addresses scriptures that admonish about sin and overcoming [by looking to Him], but also scriptures and concepts about sharing the truth in love, not judging/condemning, not hating or mistreating the sinner - but still attempting to bring in the "whole" of scriptural precepts.

I'll ask;  how are you personally progressing with reconciling things like "there is no condemnation to those that are in Christ Jesus", with "be not deceived, neither adulterers, homosexuals, liars, (etc.) will inherit the kingdom of God"?   One could be tempted to say, "since there's no condemnation, then that's what I'm going with.  It doesn't matter what I or anyone else does".  But it doesn't appear to me to be what the gospel teaches.

For me, it's been a life-long walk (struggle) of finding that place of rest, peace, no condemnation - while still realizing there's sin to be aware of (not solely focus on) - but still be aware of, admit it to Him (confess), and submit my will to Him creating and working His righteous works through me (I can't do it on my own).

Talking about sin is apparently offensive to some, and I understand that shouldn't be our focus.  Liberty, freedom, joy in Christ should be.  But do you think that means, "so live like the devil, God loves us all, we're all going to heaven anyway"?  If so (or not), why?  And how do you reconcile the "freedom" verses with the "should we continue in sin so that grace abounds?  God forbid!" verses?

Maybe someone has some insights that will be helpful for growth rather than "it's sin", "no it's not";  "yes it is"....  :hammerhead:

  :thumbsup:

[shawn]

I think you and I are on the same page with much of this as we seem to be asking the same questions.

In my experience, sin seperates.  Jesus said, if you love me you will obey what I command.  But, I also believe it's possible to be more sin conscious than God conscious.  So, in lies the balance that we seek.  I have noticed in my life when I wring my hands over sin, that I tend to sin more.  I tend to lose focus on Christ.  When my focus in on being wrapped up in loving Christ, and trying to see myself how he sees me, I sin less.  I am just less drawn to the things of the flesh.  I can abide in that peace, rest and I don't want sin to come in and disturb that.  When I say something ignorant to someone, I try to make quick ammends.  When I hurt someone I do my best to correct that with humility quickly.

Paul makes his position very clear...in that sin no longer has the power to bring us death but we are to strive to become more like Christ daily.  We are to live our lives as a sacrifice...in gratitude...overflowing from the love poured into us.  He teaches us much about living righteously.  He doesn't do so without good reason.

Roman 6 makes it perfectly clear about this issue of sin...

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

To validate living sinfully because we are under the law of grace is short sighted at best. 

But, for me the take home message is this...it's a process.  Sanctification doesn't happen overnight.  Wringing our hands with worry, letting our failures steal from us our joy, and peace is not the life we are meant to live.  We all stumble, we all fall.  We can live in grace, and allow that to cover us daily but especially after a failure.  And at the same time seek to be more like Christ daily.  It's both.  Grace allows us to forgive ourselves because we know we have already been forgiven.  We allow Christ to pick us up, brush us off and move foward.

[Molly]

I just listened to the youtube Shawn posted on the Rob Bell thread, the one about the white ball.  Basically, a young boy [Rob's son] has lied to his parents about stealing a white ball, and thinks he has gotten away with it, and the second time he lies, he finds out he hasn't.  He's mortified and goes and stays under the covers for two hours, separated from his family.  When Rob finds him under the covers, he hugs him and tells him, nothing you could ever do could make me love you less.

Of course all parents know this truth.  We love our children unconditionally, no matter what.  But, apparently most children don't know this.  Some feel they can do something that will cause their parents to love them less or stop loving them.

On another thread we were talking about a 'disqualified mind,' --an intellect so engaged in sin, such that

...God gives them over to a disqualified mind, to do that which is not befitting...
--Rom 1:28

This particular translation made a huge impression on me.  Disqualified!  What a thought.  Disqualified to be in the kingdom and presence of God.  For some of us, just the thought of that is heartbreaking.

But, listening to Rob's talk, I thought maybe we are the ones disqualifying ourselves, the way Rob's son did.  God is still there, loving us, being his holy Self, but we are well aware of the sin that is disqualifying us from being in the presence of such a holy One.  It has something to do with the human psychology, where we are aware of sin no matter how numb or cavalier we might become about it [our conscience?].  We are the ones imposing the details of the separation by continuing in sin, not God.

  I heard a comic say that he loves the Catholic religion because he can go to church, ask forgiveness, say a few prayers, and be out sinning again in 20 minutes. He approved of the efficiency of it.  Of course, everyone laughed because that is not the point.  The point is relationship with God, which we are disqualified from in our own minds if we are openly and willingly breaking his commandments.

He has made peace with us, but now we must make peace with him.  God has taken care of sin from his end of it.  The white ball, and what we are going to do about it,  is now in our court.

2 Corinthians 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

[shawn]

I just listened to the youtube Shawn posted on the Rob Bell thread, the one about the white ball.  Basically, a young boy [Rob's son] has lied to his parents about stealing a white ball, and thinks he has gotten away with it, and the second time he lies, he finds out he hasn't.  He's mortified and goes and stays under the covers for two hours, separated from his family.  When Rob finds him under the covers, he hugs him and tells him, nothing you could ever do could make me love you less.

Of course all parents know this truth.  We love our children unconditionally, no matter what.  But, apparently most children don't know this.  Some feel they can do something that will cause their parents to love them less or stop loving them.

On another thread we were talking about a 'disqualified mind,' --an intellect so engaged in sin, such that

...God gives them over to a disqualified mind, to do that which is not befitting...
--Rom 1:28

This particular translation made a huge impression on me.  Disqualified!  What a thought.  Disqualified to be in the kingdom and presence of God.  For some of us, just the thought of that is heartbreaking.

But, listening to Rob's talk, I thought maybe we are the ones disqualifying ourselves, the way Rob's son did.  God is still there, loving us, being his holy Self, but we are well aware of the sin that is disqualifying us from being in the presence of such a holy One.  It has something to do with the human psychology, where we are aware of sin no matter how numb or cavalier we might become about it [our conscience?].  We are the ones imposing the details of the separation by continuing in sin, not God.

  I heard a comic say that he loves the Catholic religion because he can go to church, ask forgiveness, say a few prayers, and be out sinning again in 20 minutes. He approved of the efficiency of it.  Of course, everyone laughed because that is not the point.  The point is relationship with God, which we are disqualified from in our own minds if we are openly and willingly breaking his commandments.

He has made peace with us, but now we must make peace with him.  God has taken care of sin from his end of it.  The white ball, and what we are going to do about it,  is now in our court.

2 Corinthians 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Amen!  I couldn't agree more.  I have not only seen that video but I showed it to my children.  After, I let them know I love them like that, and God loves them like that.  There is nothing they can do to make God or myself love them any less.  They loved it.  Giving children that security from an early age is important.

Many of us did not get that.  I know for me, my perception was if I excelled, achieved, did right then I was loveable.  That leaked over into my relationship with God and it became very toxic.  I have had to unlearn many many things during my walk.

I believe it is us who sets the parameters around the seperation.  We live under grace and the agape love of our Father...why would he keep us at arms length?  It's our own conscious that keeps us from relationship because of a perceived unworthiness.  I will take a line from Rob...who's story are you going to believe about you?  God's or yours?  Because ultimately that determines much about our relationship.  He describes the prodigal son...and he doesn't even consider himself worthy of being a son...just wants to be one of his dad's farm hands.  But, his dad sees him, embraces him, places a robe, ring on him indicating sonship.  His dad never stopped considering him a son.  It was only the son's perception of what he deserved after his run with sin.

For me, that story tells me all I need to know.  When we stumble, we are not anyless sons of God.  He doesn't desire relationship with us any less.  He doesn't see us through our own filters of self worth.  If we can truly see that, we can truly have freedom.

[WhiteWings]

I'll ask;  how are you personally progressing with reconciling things like "there is no condemnation to those that are in Christ Jesus", with "be not deceived, neither adulterers, homosexuals, liars, (etc.) will inherit the kingdom of God"?   One could be tempted to say, "since there's no condemnation, then that's what I'm going with.  It doesn't matter what I or anyone else does".  But it doesn't appear to me to be what the gospel teaches.

I think it's simple.
Nothing needs to be reconciled at all imo.
There is no condemnation in Christ.... the catch 42 is that thiefs etc are never in Christ.
Just take those New Jerusalem verses and replace city with Jesus.

BTW Jerusalem means teaching place.

[Molly]

The original name of Jerusalem

"Jebus"
H2982
יבוּס
yebûs
yeb-oos'
From H947; trodden, that is, threshing place; Jebus, the aboriginal name of Jerusalem: - Jebus.


The name Jerusalem itself--that word salem means 'peace' [completeness and welfare] as in Shalom!




"Jerusalem"

H3389
ירוּשׁלים    ירוּשׁלם
yerûshâlaim  yerûshâlayim
yer-oo-shaw-lah'-im, yer-oo-shaw-lah'-yim
A dual (in allusion to its two main hills (the true pointing, at least of the former reading, seems to be that of H3390)); probably from (the passive participle of) H3384 and H7999; founded peaceful; Jerushalaim or Jerushalem, the capital city of Palestine: - Jerusalem.

From two words:

H3384
ירא    ירה
yârâh  yârâ'
yaw-raw', yaw-raw'
A primitive root; properly to flow as water (that is, to rain); transitively to lay or throw (especially an arrow, that is, to shoot); figuratively to point out (as if by aiming the finger), to teach: -  (+) archer, cast, direct, inform, instruct, lay, shew, shoot, teach (-er, -ing), through.


AND


H7999
שׁלם
shâlam
shaw-lam'
A primitive root; to be safe (in mind, body or estate); figuratively to be (causatively make) completed; by implication to be friendly; by extension to reciprocate (in various applications): - make amends, (make an) end, finish, full, give again, make good, (re-) pay (again), (make) (to) (be at) peace (-able), that is perfect, perform, (make) prosper (-ous), recompense, render, requite, make restitution, restore, reward, X surely.

[WhiteWings]

Typo in my previous message. Jerusalem=teaching of peace.

[Molly]

Typo in my previous message. Jerusalem=teaching of peace.

Ok. yes. :thumbsup:

There's a wonderful abundance in that word.  Having peace, safety, perfection, completeness, restoration, fullness--raining down on you from the skies--flowing like water--

[WhiteWings]

Doesn't that mean New Jerusalem isn't "heaven" but just a intermediate step?
It's the new place of teaching peace. For me that means many in that city still don't know what real peace is.
They are still students.
:dontknow:

[Molly]

Doesn't that mean New Jerusalem isn't "heaven" but just a intermediate step?
It's the new place of teaching peace. For me that means many in that city still don't know what real peace is.
They are still students.
:dontknow:

Could be.  We've got aeons to get this right.

But, we will be [continually] in the presence of God [from that time forward].


3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

--Rev 21

[redhotmagma]

And I saw the holy city – the new Jerusalem – descending out of heaven from God, made ready like a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.

Theres only one bride (as far as I know).  I never used to "buy" it will be God in us, until I caught the bride reference.

And the two shall become one


As for the OP, I feel that we are the ones who keep ourselves out of the kingdom, by not appropriating Gods grace.  When I used to sin (not that I don't anymore), I would always feel like God was so far away, and I would have to do something, be good to bring Him back.  But now that I see God as all loving Father, its different.  I was praying a couple weeks ago, asking for Him to show Himself to me, and I heard "I'm inside you".  Sometimes we just need to be reminded He's not out there far away from us.  It was a great experience to be reminded that the veil is torn.

[CHB]

Hi Jabcat,

Here is my way of seeing this, not that it is perfect or the right way.

I use to worry about things that I had done, sin that I thought would send me to hell, all of this to the point of a nervous breakdown. After I came to understand that Jesus died for the world and that all sins, past, present, and future, had been forgiven, my perception of sin begin to change.

We know that sin exists and just like Adam and Eve we do and will sin, there is no way around it. I know whenever I sin it has been forgiven by Jesus sacrifice. It is by the faith of Jesus that I live today. I know when God looks at me he sees what his Son did, not what I do. That is the faith in Christ that we must live by. Knowing he took care of it all.

If Christ is in us and he is working in me "both to will and to do of his good pleasure" then I have to trust that he will keep me from the evils of the world and see to it that I perform as he desires and not I.  I believe the hardest thing is forgiving ourselves. Not one of us are perfect and never will be as long as we are human.

I'll ask;  how are you personally progressing with reconciling things like "there is no condemnation to those that are in Christ Jesus", with "be not deceived, neither adulterers, homosexuals, liars, (etc.) will inherit the kingdom of God"?   One could be tempted to say, "since there's no condemnation, then that's what I'm going with.  It doesn't matter what I or anyone else does".  But it doesn't appear to me to be what the gospel teaches.

The way I see this is, we all have been these things that will not inherit the kingdom but God is the one who will have to cleanse us. It is by his grace and not our doing that makes us clean from these things. (Eph. 2:10) "For we are HIS WORKMANSHIP, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God HATH BEFORE ORDAINED that we should walk in them." So, you see it is all up to HIM, not us. If it was, we could boast.

Now is there still things that we shouldn't do, yes there is but do we have control over them? I don't think so. Just like the homosexuality we talked about. Is it wrong? Yes, I think it is. Is it any worse than any other sin? NO. I believe these things, sins, exist for a reason. They are to teach us things that otherwise we wouldn't know. We have to learn to love the worst of sinners, to help them, encourage them, pray for them.

I do believe it is a progressive walk that we are in but God is leading the way and he is building all of the blocks of faith, love, and whatever else we are required to have. I usually tell people to "be patient with me because God isn't finished with me yet". I know it seems like we should be working and sometimes it seems like we are but If we are HIS workmanship then I don't see how that is possible. I think God gives us each other with all of our faluts so that we can learn to handle and deal with all of the things that come with being human. 

CHB

[CHB]

Wanted to add something to what I said in my above post.

Sins have consequences. We don't get out of jail free without paying the last farthing. We are still human and we reap what we sow. We suffer the consequences of our sins and sometimes we suffer because of the sins that others commit.

For instance, I was talking to my son and I mentioned the fact that the "world would be saved".  My son said, "then I can go out here and kill whoever I want to"? I said "yes you can but you will spend time in jail, maybe suffer the death penalty but you are forgiven even before you do it".  Like Paul said "everything is lawful but everything is not expedient". Sure, you can do anything you want to good or bad but be prepared to suffer the consquences of it. You might experience sickness, death, pain, heartache, or a host of other things from your actions.

There are lessons in every thing we do whether it is good or bad. I believe this is what the tree of good and evil represents. We all partake of that tree and we all learn things from it as Adam and Eve did. We experience blessings and we experience curses from it. The tree of life is there but it is out of reach until we learn that the other tree is not the best one for us.

Life is a growing process, we start out crawling, then we learn to walk, then we learn to run. During all of these stages we cry, laugh, get angry, love, hurt, all of the things that we need to learn to be like God and to be made into the sons of God. Paul had progressed to the running stage, he experienced it all and yet he counted it all joy, amazing!!!

These are just some things I was thinking about this morning. You all may see this completely different?

CHB

[redhotmagma]

 :thumbsup:CHB

[Miriam]

Wanted to add something to what I said in my above post.

Sins have consequences. We don't get out of jail free without paying the last farthing. We are still human and we reap what we sow. We suffer the consequences of our sins and sometimes we suffer because of the sins that others commit.

For instance, I was talking to my son and I mentioned the fact that the "world would be saved".  My son said, "then I can go out here and kill whoever I want to"? I said "yes you can but you will spend time in jail, maybe suffer the death penalty but you are forgiven even before you do it".  Like Paul said "everything is lawful but everything is not expedient". Sure, you can do anything you want to good or bad but be prepared to suffer the consquences of it. You might experience sickness, death, pain, heartache, or a host of other things from your actions.

There are lessons in every thing we do whether it is good or bad. I believe this is what the tree of good and evil represents. We all partake of that tree and we all learn things from it as Adam and Eve did. We experience blessings and we experience curses from it. The tree of life is there but it is out of reach until we learn that the other tree is not the best one for us.

Life is a growing process, we start out crawling, then we learn to walk, then we learn to run. During all of these stages we cry, laugh, get angry, love, hurt, all of the things that we need to learn to be like God and to be made into the sons of God. Paul had progressed to the running stage, he experienced it all and yet he counted it all joy, amazing!!!

These are just some things I was thinking about this morning. You all may see this completely different?

CHB

That's a very thought-provoking post. I'm going to have to chew it over for a while.