Tentmaker Forum

Hi there all,

I know that for christians re-incarnation is a touchy subject.  But i would like to give my take on it.  I respect if you find it anathema but it is interesting to say the least.

When i read Christ's teachings sometimes i suspect it may be true (for me remember)

When Christ talks of 'He who believes in me, he will never die' does sound to me that Christ is saying that if you DON'T believe you will have to go through the 'second death' and be reborn again.  If we are all going to remain alive when we 'die', to face the judgement seat, why would Christ say this? 
And what is the second death?  Is it being dead in heaven!? To me it doesn't make sense anymore.

Other spiritual writings refer to this life as a death and not real life, just a dream.  The real life is beyond.

Godbless
Nancy

Secular speaking there can be no resurrection or reincarnation without death.
In the Christian "reincarnation" you are still Nancy. Perhaps an improved version of you but still Nancy. But usually incarnation is coming back as something different. An animal for example. Or the stories from people that in a previous life were a person in 1850.
True or not I believe that's an important difference to note. Also reincarnation is again on earth and still away from God. The Christian "reincarnation" is always close to God.

Second death can't be (eternal) death in Heaven because that would mean God would be mainly the God of the dead because, let's face it, most people don't die as saints and ready for heaven.

When I look up verses with death the word meaning is just that dead. But "wide is the road that leads to destruction" is also about that death imo. Your body gets destroyed but not your soul/spirit. So imo the second death isn't really death because 'me' is my mind/personality/spirit but not or far less my body. Well something dies imo. That bad part of yourself. I see it a bit like the parable of the man that collects the wheat and burns the chaff.
I have this and the above far from clearly figured out but imo the wheat=good parts of Nancy. Chaff=the bad parts of Nancy that will be no more forever. So both the wheat and the chaff are Nancy. They are not 2 different groups.

:2c:

 

good points WW
  really clear
   you know how much I HATE this  subject ..
  I will also just add to WW  reply
  that when we are changed we become  new creatures in Christ ''a holy thing''
  I honestly  believe we are being conformed into the very image of His Son our Lord Jesus Christ ..

This is my thoughts on it ..  I find it to  be  a lie and not the Truth .

     But   may the Lord show us  His Truth and we grow stronger  in His Truth and grace .. :HeartThrob: 

 :cloud9: The problem with reincarnation is it is a religion of works, ie. if YOU do "better", "next time"..........which negates the need for Christ's work on the cross.

The people that have "verifiable" past lives information, are still not recognizing that the familiar spirits are the ones that have that information they think they are "remembering". It is a counterfeit for the Holy Spirit bringing all things to our remembrance about life and godliness. My  :2c: Blessings...

Quote from: Cardinal on November 06, 2009, 08:09:26 PM
:cloud9: The problem with reincarnation is it is a religion of works, ie. if YOU do "better", "next time"..........which negates the need for Christ's work on the cross.

The people that have "verifiable" past lives information, are still not recognizing that the familiar spirits are the ones that have that information they think they are "remembering". It is a counterfeit for the Holy Spirit bringing all things to our remembrance about life and godliness. My  :2c: Blessings...

  Awesome Card!! , well said sis !!! :HeartThrob:

   beware   of those lying spirit's 

Quote from: Cardinal on November 06, 2009, 08:09:26 PMIt is a counterfeit for the Holy Spirit bringing all things to our remembrance about life and godliness.

How can it be a counterfeit HS if there is no reincarnation? I mean counterfeit means immitating something. If the HS doesn't do a similar thing it can't be counterfeited.

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 06, 2009, 08:24:11 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on November 06, 2009, 08:09:26 PMIt is a counterfeit for the Holy Spirit bringing all things to our remembrance about life and godliness.

How can it be a counterfeit HS if there is no reincarnation? I mean counterfeit means immitating something. If the HS doesn't do a similar thing it can't be counterfeited.

  Hi WW ,
   the Holy Spirit   causes us to remember the things in Gods Word , teaching and correcting us
  a lying spirit  is  something you believe you remember from a ''so called past life''' 

  its like a diamond  is the  real thing
  and a shiny stone that looks like a diamond
     but when put to the test 
the Diamond will  cut  under pressure, but will hold all together   
and the shiny  stone [likeness] will shatter

  there is a lot of holes in the re incarnation theory   
   Do you  think it  has any  value ?

  thanks    hope you dont mind   my reply :HeartThrob:

 

No I don't mind.
For me resurrection is a special type or reincarnation. Not exactly but I explained it in the first message.
I know what the HS does and understand your reply.
It's no big deal for me what you and Cardinal said but I try to clarify.
First of all I fully agree with your defenition Rose. But not with Cardinals.
Counterfeit means imitating. If the HS never talks about you being an animal or another person in another life then the none-HS is not counterfeit but just lying. A bit like making $100 bills and $143 bills.
Counterfeit would be if the spirit tells you things similar to what the HS does. I never met the HS so thsi is purely an example. The lying spirit claims to give you a message from God but the spirit just lies about it. That would be counterfeit. The lying spirit itself is not counterfeit. It's action might be.

But this is going much further than intended. It's semantics and I fully understood Cardinal (and you)

For you last do I believe in reincarnation. No and possible....  :winkgrin:
No as in in previous live I was an animal or Napoleon.
I know there are many views on what LoF is and when. I don't want to sidetrack Nancy's thread so a short answer.
Most agree LoF is about correction. About learning. But afaik nobody exactly know how Father will do that teaching.
A thought that passed my mind, no strong feeling, is that is might be possible that God puts us in a certain enviorment as a method of teaching. And then in a way you "reincarnate".

Peeps cool down. No lenghty replies needed because I don't present this as proof. Just as one of my 1000 thoughts what exactly that 'correction' the Bible talks about might be like....

 
  Yeppers   I understood  your   reply   Bro T
  and   to  me it all comes down to this
  how we perceive  things ...
   when you spoke of the Lake of Fire as corretion  as some  perceive

   one way to see it / perceive  is  with fear and punnishment 
another way to see it is  expected  and part of that Love God  that said would correct us
   both have that same  WORD from God  but  the perception of seeing this in different ways  makes for the  confusion  and lack of clarity

  how we interpret   what Gods word really means  to us ..

one is fear of the Lord  the other in Love of the Lord 
both may be right  to a certain degree    or wrong  even
    Its how we think God is  :icon_flower:

  I  trust its love because    the Word says God is love

  and   I will go back to the HS it is love that motivates

  a lying spirit is not of love  but  to cause torment
 
what  do you say ?
    :HeartThrob:

I would say I wish you were not married.  :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:

QuoteI will go back to the HS it is love that motivates

  a lying spirit is not of love  but  to cause torment

Agreed.
But I want add that I think (because I can only compare what I have not met) that the lying spirit also teaches love.
But fake love. Looks good but is bad. Just like rat poision. Tastes perfect for the rat. But not very healthy... Deadly in fact.

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 06, 2009, 10:14:46 PM
I would say I wish you were not married.  :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:

QuoteI will go back to the HS it is love that motivates

  a lying spirit is not of love  but  to cause torment

Agreed.
But I want add that I think (because I can only compare what I have not met) that the lying spirit also teaches love.
But fake love. Looks good but is bad. Just like rat poision. Tastes perfect for the rat. But not very healthy... Deadly in fact.

Bro T   ,  That is a good point  and  taken !
   and  to go even further  with this ,  for the cat who eats the  poison rat

  it  can be deadly
  I saw  this once a cat on the farm who ate a  poison  rat and  was messed up for awhile  till it died ...  :mshock:

  :HeartThrob:

Tell me about it. It's how my dog died. He ate a handful of pure rat poison.
He couldn't move the 'last half' of his body anymore (how to say that in English?)
To the vet. A fortune of vitaime shots got him up again. But never his old self. Kidneys destoyed.
Lifeforce completly drained  :thumbdown:
You know we never dared to touch his leach when we didn't go for a walk with him. He heard it no matter where he was. And sorta ran right trought walls of joy. And only cooled down after he got his walk. But after he ate the poison. zero interest.
He always hated the vet. Nervous.wanted out etc. But the time came we had to chose to keep him suffering or let him go. He didn't even care if he was at the vet. And in a way it seemed he really know he was very near to his end   :sigh: :sigh: :sigh: :sigh: :sigh: :sigh: :sigh: :sigh:

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 06, 2009, 10:56:28 PM
Tell me about it. It's how my dog died. He ate a handful of pure rat poison.
He couldn't move the 'last half' of his body anymore (how to say that in English?)
To the vet. A fortune of vitaime shots got him up again. But never his old self. Kidneys destoyed.
Lifeforce completly drained  :thumbdown:
You know we never dared to touch his leach when we didn't go for a walk with him. He heard it no matter where he was. And sorta ran right trought walls of joy. And only cooled down after he got his walk. But after he ate the poison. zero interest.
He always hated the vet. Nervous.wanted out etc. But the time came we had to chose to keep him suffering or let him go. He didn't even care if he was at the vet. And in a way it seemed he really know he was very near to his end   :sigh: :sigh: :sigh: :sigh: :sigh: :sigh: :sigh: :sigh:

  That is so sad , I  hate to hear it Bro T,
  sometimes  our furry friends  show us what loyalty   really means and  how it hurts us to see them suffer  unto death 
  my cat was  Q-tip   loved the old girl  , she was a good cat  in her day 

  and like you we had to put her down  by the vet,
   a mercy killing of sorts   she was never the same  either . :sigh:

  what can you do , I  will always remember her   '' a fine cat  she was ''

Sometimes he went insane. Ran back and forth in the living room. Full speed. At the end of the room full brakes and skidding like a car out of control. Half of time his timing was off and  bumped his butt sorta sideways against the wall. Sometimes his head rammed the wall. No problem at all. On for another carpet devastation run.
And then back to sleep. His other hobby. Against the central heating. His black fur got so hot you wondered if he wasn't burning up. He knew all footsteps of our friends and family. When they arrived you saw his ear move a little and kept sleeping. But when it were unknown foodsteps he jumped up in guard position :laughing7:

Bit more on topic. If I would reincarnate in that that dog, I would surely be closer to perfection than I'm now...
Reincarnation. Yes I know. I know....
Ok the dog only worshipped the food gods. Especially the cookie god. But very loyal. Kind hearted. And cheerful

Thats a sad story WW   :sigh:    about ya poor dog..
We have a couple also
I actually take Rat poison daily....its warphrine , an anticoagulant which thins the blood..[ long story..too many blood clots] it prevents the blood from thickening...and thins toan  almost water like consistancy ..lethal if you cut yourself badly....ya cant stop the bleedin..

of course while you take this stuff it destroys your insides....Dont you love modern Medicine....and i understand heaps about lethagy....

:icon_flower:

I know about blood clots and medicine for that. I also knew it's used for rats. Not that it's the same stuff.
So you oatmeal in the morning is actually your medicine :-)
Nice article that explains the working: http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_rat_poison.html

/EDIT 1: Now I think of it those vitamine shots make lots of sense. Likely to replace his lost vitamine K
/EDIT 2: How did we get from reincarnation to rat poison in 13 hours. Forgive me Nancy for I don't know what I'm doing....

ty for the link

and yeah - they have even more lethal stuff on the market thesedays..poor animal die a Horrid death...

ill have to read some on that Oatmeal and its properties...Certain foods I avoid, Mainly those RICH in Iron...Tis what I have to much of..opposite to aneamia.[sp].

I mentioned oatmeal because that's how rat poison looks like. And likely smells and tasts like too.
99.9% healty and tasty stuff. 0.1% vitimine Death.

But there is more than that anti clot stuff in rat poison. Poisoned rats don't rot. They just die up to skin.
My uncle worked in a factory where they make sugar out of dunno the name. Big white 'carrots' :laughing7:
Before the havest tons of rat poison was dumped under the floor. After the harvest time the floor boards were lifted and truckloads dried up rat got shoveled out. But never a smell of rotting rats.
Maybe it blasphemy but I think God really met his match in mankind when it comes to death and destruction. That industry is being perfected since the dawn of ages...

Oatmeal is very rich of iron. Maybe use a magnet to get it out before you eat it. Just a suggestion. :pointlaugh:

You naughty lot!!

Rosered, you mentioned that past life's are lies.  To me that is the usual 'christian' cop out! If it doesn't sound good, just say it's lies, or the devil.  How can you debate with that!   Don't ET'ers say that about NDE'S that they are from the devil, even when the person has become a better person and more spiritual. It's a cop out.
Anyway i don't think you are meant to think about your past life's anyway.  To think about your life now.  I bit like christians worrying when the end will come and forget to live in the now.
I am simply asking if the 2nd death maybe re-incarnation and to consider the pros and cons of it.

Card, doesn't Paul say 'work out your OWN SALVATION with fear and trembling'. I don't see anything here with the doctrine of just let Jesus do all the work.

Godbless
Nancy

Quote from: Nancy on November 07, 2009, 08:53:39 PMRosered, you mentioned that past life's are lies.  To me that is the usual 'christian' cop out! If it doesn't sound good, just say it's lies, or the devil.  How can you debate with that!

I'm to new to say it is or is not a cop out. If there is no support for NDE's in the Bible then "it's a lie" is the only correct answer from a Christian point of view.
If there is support, which I personally never heard of, it's indeed a cop out.

QuoteDon't ET'ers say that about NDE'S that they are from the devil, even when the person has become a better person and more spiritual. It's a cop out.

I think that's a bit to generalizing. Many NDE's seem to be believed by at least some ETs.

willieH: Hi Nancy... :hithere:

The following answer are my present observations, which many shall disagree with, but when they are considered instead of immediately dispensed, ...make sense (at least they do to me)... I hope they shall at the least, give you some food for thought, as you search for answers to your questions...  :friendstu:

Quote from: Nancy on November 06, 2009, 11:58:48 AM
When i read Christ's teachings sometimes i suspect it may be true (for me remember)

When Christ talks of 'He who believes in me, he will never die' does sound to me that Christ is saying that if you DON'T believe you will have to go through the 'second death' and be reborn again.

Don't know what bearing this might have on anything, but when CHRIST said this, He cannot have meant "NEVER" in the sense of NOT AT ALL... for HE DIED... and He "believed" in a far GREATER sense than can any of us... Also... we DO die PHYSICAL death... so the word "NEVER" (which means NOT AT ANY TIME), cannot be the conveyance of this passage.

As I see this... He is NOT saying that NO DEATH will occur for you... rather, SPIRITUAL LIFE has been "re-born" by your "belief in Him", and you shall NOT EVER "die" in the Spirit again, FOREVER...  You, as a believer have "completed" the circle of TRUE LIFE which is in the SPIRIT... (you, in that belief/faith, have come HOME, if you will)

Another point, is that if there is really no ACTUAL "DEATH" in believers -- then what point is found in a "RESURRECTION"?  :Chinscratch:

There is an old saying that the BRAVE die ONCE, but the COWARD dies a THOUSAND TIMES...  I think that CHRIST's Words more fall into "METAPHORIC" category, rather than an actual "never" APPLICATION.

IOW -- one that "BELIEVES" enters the state of (physical) DEATH clothed with LIFE... as He notes in Rev 3:18

Quote from: Nancy on November 06, 2009, 11:58:48 AMIf we are all going to remain alive when we 'die', to face the judgement seat, why would Christ say this?

Again... it is where, when and how you are percieving "the Judgment seat"... the common belief in Christianity is that this takes place in the Resurrection... AFTER physical death...

It is my belief that we are before it NOW... and either we are NAKED in our SIN (as were Adam & Eve in the Garden) ...or CLOTHED in CHRIST --

Paul noted in his writings that even though sin continued in his experience, ...it was no longer HE that sinned but that SIN was a separate resident within his members -- Rom 7:17

He was NOT conveying that a believer, based on his/her belief could go on in SIN... rather, that SIN in the members would take its occasions in his experience, irregardless of his desire to serve GOD... On the SURFACE, this sounds like "double-talk", but it is completely TRUTH...  Even the Aposte JOHN joined PAUL in this thinking -- 1 John 1:8

Anyone who has ever dealt with a person which is prone to MISBEHAVIORS, can have a desire to NOT participate in those behaviors, yet FALL into them anyway... I counseled in a Homeless shelter for a span of time (almost a year), and there were MANY that desired to (1) quit smoking or (2) quit using cocaine or (3) quit abusing his/her spouse, etc... but FELL into those MISBEHAVIORS anyway regardless of INTERNAL (and heartfelt, tearful) desire to ABSTAIN from them...  Their SIN was a TORMENT within, that most (observing them) WITHOUT easily find condemnation instead of understanding and HELPING them to VICTORY, and OUT of these (various) AWFUL IMPRISONMENTS...  :dontknow:

CHRIST plain & simply said -- John 12:48 -- NOW is the JUDGMENT of the WORLD -- and then continued to say -- NOW shall the PRINCE of THIS WORLD be CAST OUT

Most view this PRINCE which is "casted out" as some mythical being called "satan" is being spoken of here... and as I see it, that is PARTIALLY correct...

However, that "being" is not some "fallen angel", rather -- is the CARNAL portion of the MEN (and women) we ARE while IN mind of THE FLESH (instead of the mind of the SPIRIT), not the "eviction" of a "talking snake/red guy with a pitchfork" --  :laughing7:

Quote from: Nancy on November 06, 2009, 11:58:48 AMAnd what is the second death?  Is it being dead in heaven!? To me it doesn't make sense anymore.

(as I see it) -- THIS LIFE contains TWO DEATHS --- the "2nd death", which is PHYSICAL, and the "1st death" which is SPIRITUAL, and which occurs via our disobedience to the COMMAND of GOD, ...thereby bringing SIN into our experience, as well as the eventuality of the "2nd death" which is the GRAVE of the PHYSICAL.

Quote from: Nancy on November 06, 2009, 11:58:48 AMOther spiritual writings refer to this life as a death and not real life, just a dream.  The real life is beyond.

Godbless
Nancy

This is somewhat a TRUE observation... JESUS noted those who were ALIVE, as DEAD -- Luke 9:60 -- let the DEAD bury their DEAD -- obviously noting these as SPIRITUALLY DEAD, yet able to perform LIVING TASKS (as in "burial")

So they were actually DEAD (1st death) and ALIVE (able to "bury", as they themselves headed for their 2nd death)...

Hope this helps you...  :cloud9:

QuoteHope this helps you... 

Well  sure helped me Bro W ! 

Wow , I love your line by line clarity!  :cloud9:

   abundant  blessings  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: willieH on November 07, 2009, 09:52:16 PM
Don't know what bearing this might have on anything, but when CHRIST said this, He cannot have meant "NEVER" in the sense of NOT AT ALL... for HE DIED... and He "believed" in a far GREATER sense than can any of us...

Willie I agree Jesus died and was superior to all of us. But I'm not so sure that can be used as proof.
What I'm now gonna say is more a question to you/anyone than rebuking you. Let's say everything Jesus said was meant for the NT/New Convenant. Imo it's very well possible that convenant started at His resurrection. Or perhaps after His return to Father. So His death was still under the Old Convenant. I know Jesus said "It is finished". But I think you won't deny that His resurrection wasn't just a minor event in history.

QuoteAlso... we DO die PHYSICAL death... so the word "NEVER" (which means NOT AT ANY TIME), cannot be the conveyance of this passage.

Sparrow are you reading this" Sparrrrooowww!!! :laughing7:

willieH: Hi Nancy -- :hithere:

Quote from: Nancy on November 07, 2009, 08:53:39 PM
I am simply asking if the 2nd death maybe re-incarnation and to consider the pros and cons of it.

Card, doesn't Paul say 'work out your OWN SALVATION with fear and trembling'. I don't see anything here with the doctrine of just let Jesus do all the work.

How does one actually "work out" SALAVATION?  Is not the goal to SUBMIT to CHRIST (the WORD) and His FATHER? 

And when this (submission) is done -- is the one SUBMITTED, ...actually "doing" the "working out"?  :laughing7:

What PEACE is found in FEAR and TREMBLING?  1 John 4:18 -- Discharges this UNPEACEFUL thinking.

Almost EVERY letter Paul wrote began with the wish of PEACE toward other believers...

(not accusing you of doing this, Nancy - but) How HYPOCRITICAL to EXTRACT a verse from his writings, and thereby teach FEAR and PEACE simultaneously... as if they truly CO-EXIST and are BRETHREN...  :mshock:

It is CONFUSION of what LOVE truly IS -- as well as its TRUE MOTIVES for its OBJECTS --- that introduces FEAR as an FOUNDATIONAL element in the "BUILDING" of PEACE...  :dontknow:

What Paul is conveying is that we are to be IN RESPECT of YHVH as we live the days of our LIVES, not DREAD coming face to face with Him!  We are to be looking FORWARD to meeting our GOD "face to face"!

Do you FEAR those you LOVE?  Or those who LOVE YOU?

The Scriptures note we are to LOVE GOD... because HE 1st LOVED us... what kind of MIXED UP MESSAGE conveys that in our LOVE of GOD, we are to be AFRAID of Him?  I see this as DISTORTED information.

I find no PEACE in such a mindset.  And it is the teachings of TORMENT and/or ANNHILATION which have removed LOVE from christian teaching and experience, the TRUTH of what LOVE is all about!

Here are the FACTS ---> PEACE does NOT contain FEAR, and FEAR does not contain PEACE they are CONTRARY! 

Which is WHY -- FEAR is NOT a PART of LOVE... These are statements of REASON, to which our Father calls us -- Isaiah 1:18

I LOVE my grandchildren... and though I do desire their respect... I do NOT ever, NOT EVER --- wish them to be AFRAID of me... (fearing and trembling as I walk into the room)   :pitiful:

I can only speak for myself... but, everyday I ask my Father, that He might put an END to this EVIL TIME, that I might come face to face with Him... and that ALL my brothers and sisters that live or have ever lived -- will be ENVELOPED within His MERCY and LOVE...

Regardless of my MYRIAD IMPERFECTIONS... I don't go to bed shaking & quaking, like an earthquake!  AFRAID that I might die in my sleep!  And then have to QUAKINGLY STAND before His (enraged) JUDGMENT SEAT as does "christianity" teach the World!

I LOVINGLY say goodnight to Him (cuz He is my best friend), looking forward to His new morning here... or better yet... to EMBRACING HIM in my next moment!  I can't WAIT to meet LOVE face to face!

:Peace: Sister N...

willieH: Hi WW... :hithere:

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 07, 2009, 10:09:45 PM

Quote from: willieH on November 07, 2009, 09:52:16 PM
Don't know what bearing this might have on anything, but when CHRIST said this, He cannot have meant "NEVER" in the sense of NOT AT ALL... for HE DIED... and He "believed" in a far GREATER sense than can any of us...

Willie I agree Jesus died and was superior to all of us. .But I'm not so sure that can be used as proof

"Proof" for what?  I am not totally sure I understand what you are saying here brother  WW... ????

JESUS -- DIED... with PERFECT FAITH... the "NEVER" DIE thing did not apply to Him -- for He had to DIE to redeem us from DEATH...  and as we are made in the IMAGE of GOD, it does not apply to us either...

The word NEVER implies, NOT at ANY TIME...  :dontknow: 

Well, My point is that true understanding of JESUS' usage of NEVER cannot be -- as is commonly thought by Christians, for 

(1) -- we (truly) DIE spiritually when we SIN, then 
(2) -- we are to (metaphorically) DIE to ourselves in submission, and finally
(3) -- we (truly) DIE physically

Which elminates the word "NEVER" as applied to our involvment concerning "dying" --  :dontknow:

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 07, 2009, 10:09:45 PMWhat I'm now gonna say is more a question to you/anyone than rebuking you. Let's say everything Jesus said was meant for the NT/New Convenant. Imo it's very well possible that convenant started at His resurrection. Or perhaps after His return to Father. So His death was still under the Old Convenant. I know Jesus said "It is finished". But I think you won't deny that His resurrection wasn't just a minor event in history.

You quoted my words about CHRIST's usage of the word, "NEVER", but did not comment on this...  :dontknow:

Where did I suggest that "His resurrection" was a minor event in history, bro?

What I SAID, was that He BELIEVED (enacted FAITH) in a FAR GREATER sense then do we... He did GOD's WILL continuously... we DO NOT... Not only that, but JESUS completely embodied the WORD of YHVH, which is something we only do IN PART -- at best.

CHRIST's death put to DEATH the "Old covenant" which was LAW oriented and centered IN IT -- displaying that our WORKS will always FAIL... and in doing so, replaced it with the JUSTIFICATION of GRACE... which IS the "New Covenant" -- displaying that it is the WORK of GOD on our behalf that in the end, SUCCEEDS.

The "OLD" (Law accusing us -- Rom 7:9) brings  :thumbdown: DEATH ---

The "NEW" brings  :thumbsup: LIFE (Rom 9:24-25)...

:mblush:  To be honest and truthful, ...I am still not sure what you were trying to convey to me in this post...  :dunno: 

:Peace:

my  :2c:

  Jesus announced that He had overcome the world before He lay down His life in obediance to Father's will.

  He announced 'the prince of this world comes,and he has nothing in me."

 So legally He could not be required to die at all, under law.

 But He laid down his life in obediance to the will of His Father,

 after all things had been made subject to him

[world/demons/death] yes, he had already overcome death

before He laid down his life. Because he resurrected the dead;

both dead in spirit and in physical sense.

 Because He did not sin,and sin entered not his flesh..it had no

power to put him to death. He literally willingly laid it down

in obediance to His Father BECAUSE of this scripture

 1Cor15;27 For he has put everything under his feet, now when it says that he has put everything under him,it is clear that this does NOT include God himself. When he has done this..

 then the Son himself WILL BE MADE SUBJECT TO HIM

 [as in lay your life down] who put everything under him,

 SO THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL

 Because the little children were partakers of flesh and blood, he likewise came in such manner. Flesh and blood can NOt inherit. Not even Christ's, it must be laid down or changed.

 The flesh profits NOTHING.

 Now ,as far as re-incarnation goes...it is obvious that those with such memories have returned unto the earth[flesh of another man] and not unto God.For dust they are and to the dust they shall return

 cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals,

 you will crawl on your belly and eat dust all the days of your life

and I will put enmity between you and the woman,AND

BETWEEN YOUR OFFSPRING AND HERS

 HE WILL CRUSH YOUR HEAD

AND YOU WILL STRIKE HIS HEEL

Quote from: willieH on November 07, 2009, 11:11:13 PMTo be honest and truthful, ...I am still not sure what you were trying to convey to me in this post...

I'll give it another try.
You wrote that people still physically die. I agree.
A bit later you wrote:

QuoteDon't know what bearing this might have on anything, but when CHRIST said this, He cannot have meant "NEVER" in the sense of NOT AT ALL... for HE DIED... and He "believed" in a far GREATER sense than can any of us...

My understanding is that you in this quote say something to "strengthen" what you said in the previous quote.
Even Jesus, the most sinless person ever, died. (so why would we not die too)
I completely agree with that (people die. Jesus died. Jesus was :thumbsup:)

What I was trying to say is that the promise of "never die" started when Jesus completed His whole task.
Part of that task was: Dying. Resurrection. (and returning to Father). So Jesus established the New Convenant by dying.
To summarize: Saying "Perfect Jesus died, so why wouldn't we die?" Is overlooking the fact that Jesus died under the Old Convenant and we are now under the New Convenant.

If you never instended to say what I understood you said well then just ignore my post. I'm just pointing out a special situation that may or may not have impact on this discussion.
:Peace2:

Nancy;

  I can certainly understand someone wondering about these things, I have too. After all, nothing is impossible with God.

  I know people personally that have had such memories 'instilled' in them. Many things are unclear to us,
at different times..as the light grows brighter and brighter
hopefully everything will be cleared up.

  For there is nothing 'hidden' that will not be revealed, and nothing concealed that will not be known,or brought out into the open.

  keep seeking,keep knocking :thumbsup:

willieH: Hi brother WW!  :cloud9:

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 07, 2009, 11:34:55 PM

Quote from: willieH on November 07, 2009, 11:11:13 PMTo be honest and truthful, ...I am still not sure what you were trying to convey to me in this post...

I'll give it another try.
You wrote that people still physically die. I agree.
A bit later you wrote:

Quote from: willieHDon't know what bearing this might have on anything, but when CHRIST said this, He cannot have meant "NEVER" in the sense of NOT AT ALL... for HE DIED... and He "believed" in a far GREATER sense than can any of us...

My understanding is that you in this quote say something to "strengthen" what you said in the previous quote.
Even Jesus, the most sinless person ever, died. (so why would we not die too)
I completely agree with that (people die. Jesus died. Jesus was :thumbsup:)

What I was trying to say is that the promise of "never die" started when Jesus completed His whole task.

Part of that task was: Dying. Resurrection. (and returning to Father). So Jesus established the New Convenant by dying.

I agree with this... The "it is finished" meant that there was NOTHING that could inhibit the balance of the WORK, for He had maintained SINLESSNESS His entire life which was FINISHED... and therefore WORTHY of acceptance by YHVH as a REDEEMING work.

That said... this already IS, even before He did it... so the ETERNAL view of it, is that TIME had witnessed its completion whereas ETERNALLY, it already IS an established FACT before it was even presented in TIME to witness...

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 07, 2009, 11:34:55 PMTo summarize: Saying "Perfect Jesus died, so why wouldn't we die?" Is overlooking the fact that Jesus died under the Old Convenant and we are now under the New Convenant.

That is your observation bro, and you are welcome to it... You are observing it according to TIME and its manifestations, which are IRRELEVANT... What IS relevant is the ETERNAL and UNCHANGING FACT that it (the sin of the human race, and the redeeming of it by CHRIST) has ALWAYS BEEN...

The "Old Covenant" of LAW shall NEVER pass away, for it is WRITTEN in the WORD which is ETERNAL...

JESUS said that Heaven and earth would pass away, but MY WORDS shall NEVER PASS AWAY...  Part of those WORDS are the Old Covenant, for they establish LAW which shall NEVER be compromised in the ETERNAL, only for the display of the KNOWLEDGE of GOD, in the TEMPORAL... to demonstrate which of the TWO -- IS -- the LIVING PORTION of the ETERNAL -- and which IS NOT.

The whole jist of this is that WE, in this experience... are the LIVING KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL as is ETERNALLY in the HEART and MIND of GOD...

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 07, 2009, 11:34:55 PMIf you never instended to say what I understood you said well then just ignore my post. I'm just pointing out a special situation that may or may not have impact on this discussion.
:Peace2:

I have already addressed this bro... If we are SPIRITUALLY inclined, we shall see and gravitate to the ETERNAL, and not to the TEMPORAL...

TIME is a TEMPORAL setting and ALL within it that occurs is TEMPORAL, to include the SIN of man, and our REDEMPTION from it.  ALL this has ALWAYS BEEN... For YHVH does NOT CHANGE...

What is ETERNAL is that we -- the CHILDREN of GOD which ARE the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... that is finding REVELATION to the Heavens and Earth, in THIS TEMPORAL setting... The KNOWLEDGE of GOD, is a LIVING KNOWLEDGE...

We are considered BOOKS -- Rev 20:12 -- and BOOKS contain -- KNOWLEDGE -- :nod:

We are each (as BOOKS) "OPENED" before GOD and ALL His Creation... as the DEFINING LIVING examples of what IS and what IS NOT to be -- IN the Creation and Heavenly, realms...

The KNOWLEDGE of YHVH -- revealed -- which is of GOOD and EVIL...

If we wish to KNOW the END... we must GO back to the BEGINNING, for JESUS CHRIST is BOTH the Alpha (beginning) ...AND... the Omega (ending) -- SIMULTANEOUSLY which is ETERNALLY -- without EITHER. --  :boogie:

:Peace: bro...

 :cloud9: Willie, this post is so good it makes me want to.... :boogie: :Egyptdance2: :egyptdance: :myahoo: :omg: :banana:  Blessings..... :thumbsup:

Quote from: willieH on November 08, 2009, 12:52:37 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 07, 2009, 11:34:55 PMTo summarize: Saying "Perfect Jesus died, so why wouldn't we die?" Is overlooking the fact that Jesus died under the Old Convenant and we are now under the New Convenant.

That is your observation bro, and you are welcome to it... You are observing it according to TIME and its manifestations, which are IRRELEVANT... What IS relevant is the ETERNAL and UNCHANGING FACT that it (the sin of the human race, and the redeeming of it by CHRIST) has ALWAYS BEEN...

I don't want to go into this "always been" debate because it leads nowhere. I agree that for God the "always been" state is a fact.
Same for His plan etc. But I think you also agree with me that from the 1st to the 2nd Adam all kind of changes took place.
For the humans those changes looked linear. (normal time). I'm just speaking about human awarenes. I don't know how things are for you but I have a linear life. I can be at several places at the same time. Neither at several times at the same time. So I always speak about thinks with that linear view. And with that I'm not in the very least denying God experiences such things in a vastly different way.
That said I agree the redeeming always has been here. "The Lamb was slain at the foundation of the world."
I try to understand you Willie. Now you try to understand me. I'm not denying your idea's about God "allways been".
I'm just saying the Bible mainly is a linear book. But indeed small gems like "The lamb was slain..." are none linear.
I really hope you understand me this time because we seem never to be able to exchange 2 messages without ending up in this trap. :sigh:

hi there will,

My take on it is nobody EVER dies, at least not the spirit/soul within us, only the BODY dies.

So when Jesus talks about 'He who believes in me will never die' He couldn't have been talking about the spirit dying only the body. 

So what i have gleaned from other writings is that when you are near death if you haven't 'braced Christs' teachings' you will re-incarnate. 

If you have braced salvation you will never die because your consciousness will remain alive. If you died in your sins, so to speak, you will remain unconscious and re-incarnate.

Will, i agree with you that judgment day is TODAY, not in some FUTURE time as there is no time, there is only NOW.
When i mentioned Paul stating work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, i don't believe Paul meant fear in the conventional sense.  I do not fear God at all. GOD IS LOVE, so i know that Paul couldn't have meant it that way. 

I believe you work out your salvation by being conscious of who you really are A SON OF GOD.

Godbless
Nancy

hi,
Whitewings, you mentioned if there is no support in the bible, etc but my question is what bible? 
As you are probably aware the NT that we have today was collated i believe by Constantine in 325ad. 
He got rid of many books that didn't fit into his view of what the catholic church should teach such as the gospel of thomas, apocalpse of Paul, gospel of mary magdalene, etc.

Why should he have done that?  Maybe they alluded to re-incarnation and the church didn't want re-incarnation to be known because then they would lose their stranglehold on the peoples' fear of hell.
If there is no hell, there would be no fear of the church.  When the church calls something a heresy i usually think that there must be some truth to it otherwise why the fear!

Godbless
Nancy

Quote from: Nancy on November 08, 2009, 12:35:22 PM
hi,
Whitewings, you mentioned if there is no support in the bible, etc but my question is what bible? 
As you are probably aware the NT that we have today was collated i believe by Constantine in 325ad. 
He got rid of many books that didn't fit into his view of what the catholic church should teach such as the gospel of thomas, apocalpse of Paul, gospel of mary magdalene, etc.

I have thought about the same thing Nancy.
How do we know the Bible contains the correct amount of books?
I can remember one method they used to detect fake books. "Modern......"
If a book that is supposed to be written 1500 BC uses words that got in use 500 years later or refers to events that didn't happen until 500 years later then that book was concidered fake. Or lettertype, type of ink and paper are not of that time.
Was it done correctly and/or honestly? I'm just not qualified to check.....

 
Hi Nancy  and WW ,


  I watched a show last night called ''unexplained mysteries '' 
and it spoke of many Jewish Rabbies/teachers  that believed in re-incarnation 
there are still some to this day that still believe  as of old ..
as it is part of their teachings /doctrine .
  I  also cannot    say  what happened to the Word of God over time , history , etc
  and what wany faiths call the Bible , writen  Word .
  I do   know that when I looked up        the  different ''beliefs / faiths 

  on many types of religions  , I was surprised  and  kind of disturbed 
how  they all vary  soooo much , it certainly can shake your  faith/ beliefs  .

  I know I am not strong enough to  ''go there ''  and discern    what  is of God  and   What  is   His will  and what will come of it all 
  Truth is something  simple , but  '' religion'' is not   such a simple thing
to understand ......  :HeartThrob:

 :cloud9: We are told what the glory is we are to attain to, and anything short of that, is a thief. CHRIST IN YOU, the hope of glory. That is our hope for perfection, being conformed into His image and likeness, by the grace and election of God, while still in the body.

Death of the body is not the death we should be concerned about. The death of the body is a SYMPTOM of what has really happened, ie. the separation of the soul/wife from the spirit/husband, which is what "causes" the death of the body, as the body is just doing or mirroring the spiritual condition.

This is why He told them that for the hardness of their hearts, Moses/the letter would give them a bill of divorcement. Hardness of heart there means, dull of hearing. So what He was saying way, because you are dull of hearing what the Spirit would say to you, the letter (ministry of condemnation) will allow you to divorce your wife, ie. spirit separate from soul = DIE.

Which, conversely, is why Elijah and Enoch did not die, but walked with God (walked without separation of soul from spirit) and were caught up/no more. There is now NO CONDEMNATION to those that walk in the Spirit. The ministry of condemnation ministers DEATH to the hearer, so if there is no more condemnation, why are we dying again? Because we are not walking in the Spirit, and are dull of hearing. Lord, please let us eat (of the experience) of the shewbread of Simeon, ie. he who hears.

The reason why reincarnation is a false teaching is because the "divorced wife", ie. soul separated from the spirit/husband, CANNOT JOIN HERSELF TO ANOTHER, but can only be joined to her "husband's brother", the KINSMAN REDEEMER, ie. CHRIST. Blessings.....

willieH: Hi sister N... :hithere:

Thanks for your answer!  :cloud9:

Quote from: Nancy on November 08, 2009, 12:21:01 PM
hi there will,

My take on it is nobody EVER dies, at least not the spirit/soul within us, only the BODY dies.

Sorry sis, ...but clearly the WORD notes at LEAST 2 DEATHS... and ALL participate in them.  If no one "EVER DIES"... Then what is Paul speaking of in 1 Cor 15:55?  How could something that doesn't even exist, have a "sting"?  Or propose that "sting" to something (anything) that DOES EXIST?

Quote from: Nancy on November 08, 2009, 12:21:01 PMSo when Jesus talks about 'He who believes in me will never die' He couldn't have been talking about the spirit dying only the body.

To this extent, I do believe the SPIRIT never dies... for it is a PORTION of the LIVING GOD (the breath of life)... but as far as MAN and personal "CONSCIOUSNESS" goes... it definitely shall experience SLEEP concerning TIME... TIME is only beheld by CONSCIOUS observation.  When you SLEEP, TIME continues, but YOU are not WITNESS to it, or its GOINGS ON... 

Ecc 9:5 -- the DEAD -- KNOW NOT -- ANY THING...  This clearly notes:

(1) -- there are those who are DEAD and --
(2) -- that CONSCIOUS OBSERVATION (knowing) is UNAVAILABLE to them...

Quote from: Nancy on November 08, 2009, 12:21:01 PMSo what i have gleaned from other writings is that when you are near death if you haven't 'braced Christs' teachings' you will re-incarnate.

I do not side with this thinking sister Nancy, and here is why...

(1) -- "Other writings" are peripheral and irrelevant.  If this cannot be proven by the WORD, then it fails to be a teaching OF IT...

(2) -- This would place upon US the "embracing" of CHRIST, to which the Scripture speaks to the contrary...

John 14:6 -- Jesus saith unto him, I am the way the truth and the life, NO MAN cometh unto the Father BUT BY ME -- (not BY themselves and their "bracing" of HIM -- as you put it) 

John 6:44 -- No man CAN COME to Me EXCEPT the Father which hath sent Me, DRAW [drag in Gk] him... -- (Again - Man is HELPLESS of Himself to either COME or to KNOW CHRIST, except GOD do the work in both cases)

This is further varified in -- Psalm 127:1

Quote from: Nancy on November 08, 2009, 12:21:01 PMIf you have braced salvation you will never die because your consciousness will remain alive. If you died in your sins, so to speak, you will remain unconscious and re-incarnate.

Sorry sis... I don't buy it... if you "remain conscious" --

(1) what is the "point" of the RESURRECTION?  And,
(2) why is it said there are men ASLEEP in CHRIST?  And,
(3) how about in Hebrews 11:13 of the "Fathers of Faith" -- where the "PROMISES" are yet to be realized?

Re-incarnation is (IMO), a mythical and mystical construing of the something that is NOT spoken of in the WORD... which thereby NECESSITATES one to "glean" it from "OTHER WRITINGS" --  :dontknow:

That the JEWS in every instance (of displaying this "belief") were shown to be IN ERROR -- to me, is evidence of its invalidity.

I am speaking of such verses as:  John 1:21 -- These were SUPPOSING that John the Baptist was ELIJAH reincarnated... and were told they were -- SUPPOSING WRONG -- by John.

You are welcome to remain where you are sister N... It is not on my agenda to change you in any way... however...

Concerning willieH -- Only IF --- you can show me a verse where REINCARNATION is noted CLEARLY within a WRITTEN INSTANCE in the WORD, I shall then have to reconsider my present observation...  :dontknow: 

But until it is shown that a MAN "died" and later, REAPPEARED on the earth -- in the WORD of God... I shall remain where I am...

:Peace:

hello,
Willie, i'm not saying that i believe in re-incarnation 100%.  I actually don't like the concept of having to come back time after time!!!! It's another viewpoint that i was interested in looking at.  But i do wonder why a great portion of humanity do believe. Their holy books obviously mention it.
Godbless
Nancy

Quote from: Cardinal on November 06, 2009, 08:09:26 PM
:cloud9: The problem with reincarnation is it is a religion of works, ie. if YOU do "better", "next time"..........which negates the need for Christ's work on the cross.

The people that have "verifiable" past lives information, are still not recognizing that the familiar spirits are the ones that have that information they think they are "remembering". It is a counterfeit for the Holy Spirit bringing all things to our remembrance about life and godliness. My  :2c: Blessings...

Interesting post and I do agree with you concerning the general concept of reincarnation as well as what you said about the familiar spirits........... well said  :thumbsup:

Still I think that there is something passed down through the "family seed" that passes through the males other than what is called to be DNA.

Regarding the Christ seed that is Christ in us that defines us as Christians I believe that is given individually from God and only after one comes to the Cross

:2c:

Doug

Quote from: Livelystone on November 10, 2009, 01:04:08 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on November 06, 2009, 08:09:26 PM
:cloud9: The problem with reincarnation is it is a religion of works, ie. if YOU do "better", "next time"..........which negates the need for Christ's work on the cross.

The people that have "verifiable" past lives information, are still not recognizing that the familiar spirits are the ones that have that information they think they are "remembering". It is a counterfeit for the Holy Spirit bringing all things to our remembrance about life and godliness. My  :2c: Blessings...

Interesting post and I do agree with you concerning the general concept of reincarnation as well as what you said about the familiar spirits........... well said  :thumbsup:

Still I think that there is something passed down through the "family seed" that passes through the males other than what is called to be DNA.

Regarding the Christ seed that is Christ in us that defines us as Christians I believe that is given individually from God and only after one comes to the Cross

:2c:

Doug

Seeing  the seed is  the incorruptible seed /of the  Word of God , born again of  the Image of God  though Jesus Christ ,,,,,,,,

   they   Father / Son dwell  within  those  expressing the Love of God though His son Jesus Christ


Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. 


1Jo 4:12 ¶ No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwells in us, and his love is perfected in us. 


1Jo 4:13   Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. 


1Jo 4:14   And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world. 


1Jo 4:15   Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwells in him, and he in God.   

1Jo 4:16   And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwells in love dwells in God, and God in him. 


1Jo 4:17 ¶ Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 


1Jo 4:18   There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that fears is not made perfect in love. 


1Jo 4:19   We love him, because he first loved us. 


1Jo 4:20 ¶ If a man say, I love God, and hates his brother, he is a liar: for he that loves not his brother whom he has  seen, how can he love God whom he has  not seen? 


1Jo 4:21   And this commandment have we from him, That he who loves God love his brother also.   

  not  re-incarnate
  but the incarnate of the Image of God and His Son dwelling among us 

in⋅car⋅nate  /adj. ɪnˈkɑrnɪt, -neɪt; v. ɪnˈkɑrneɪt/  Show Spelled Pronunciation [adj. in-kahr-nit, -neyt; v. in-kahr-neyt]  Show IPA adjective, verb, -nat⋅ed, -nat⋅ing.
Use incarnate in a Sentence
See web results for incarnate
See images of incarnate
–adjective 1. embodied in flesh; given a bodily, esp. a human, form: a devil incarnate. 
2. personified or typified, as a quality or idea: chivalry incarnate. 
3. flesh-colored or crimson.

–verb (used with object) 4. to put into or represent in a concrete form, as an idea: The building incarnates the architect's latest theories. 
5. to be the embodiment or type of: Her latest book incarnates the literature of our day. 
6. to embody in flesh; invest with a bodily, esp. a human, form: a man who incarnated wisdom and compassion. 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Origin:
1350–1400; late ME < LL incarnātus ptp. of incarnāre to make into flesh, equiv. to in- in- 2 + carn- flesh (see carnal ) + -ātus -ate 1

very different  but close enough to confuse  :HeartThrob:

willieH: Hi sister N...  :cloud9:

Thanks for your reply!  :friendstu:  Please know that I did not mean to sound "accusing" -- as if you conclusively "believe" REINCARNATION to be a true proposal...  :mblush:

Quote from: Nancy on November 10, 2009, 12:03:16 PM
hello,
Willie, i'm not saying that i believe in re-incarnation 100%.  I actually don't like the concept of having to come back time after time!!!! It's another viewpoint that i was interested in looking at.  But i do wonder why a great portion of humanity do believe. Their holy books obviously mention it.
Godbless
Nancy

It is these books which I call into question as "holy"... The word "holy" is a word describing PURITY... and as well (I believe), the state of COMPLETENESS -- for something PURE is COMPLETE, and without need of alteration...  When something is WITHOUT need of any ALTERATION -- then ANY addition or subtraction, only DISTORTS, and introduces CONFUSION...

Examples --

(1)  If one ADDS to the TRUTH, one is embellishing something that is not IN NEED of EMBELLISHMENT, and which is ALREADY WHOLE (the cup is filled to capacity already, and is not in need of more for it is already FULL) -- rather --

That which is HOLY is DEFILED by ones "addition" for it required no help to be COMPLETE, as it ALREADY abided in a "HOLY" state... One COMMON example of this today is man's foolish remarks, which at times claim to give a "110%" effort in a given endeavor.  It is NOT POSSIBLE to give more than ALL that you have to GIVE, which is "100%" of what you have to give...

(2)  If one SUBTRACTS from the TRUTH (holiness), the very same thing occurs -- One is presenting a version that is (by ones deletion of a portion) LESS than WHOLE, and thereby DEFILED from the status of PURITY...

Because a "book" which presents ideas of a "religious nature", makes a claim of something... does not equate that book to HOLINESS...

Horror novels speak of "Satan" in their content... but, just because this word "satan" is employed, does not mean that the word "satan" is therein employed TRUTHFULLY...

That religious CONFUSION exists, is simply the depiction emerging from Man which of himself, forms his own picture of GOD, rather than take GOD's WORD as that depiction...

It could be argued by those of RELIGION based upon writings OUTSIDE the BIBLE, that our belief which is based upon the BIBLE is not THAT WORD... however...  No other set of writings (that I know of), proposing a PERFECT SAVIOR that rescues us from our IMPERFECTION, is found in any other book which claims "HOLINESS" as its foundational attribute.

It is obvious that LESS than PERFECTION or PURITY is the state of men and their actions upon this earth.  Which means that if there in reality, IS a PERFECT existent GOD --in order for us to be RECONCILED from our IMPERFECTIONS... that WE being IMPERFECT cannot accomplish such a task... How can something IMPERFECT (incomplete), make ITSELF PERFECT? (complete)

Logic and REASON, dictates that a redeeming SAVIOR which could CHANGE imperfection to PERFECTION, needs to be emergent from PERFECTION, and is the only way IMPERFECT beings or things, can be CHANGED from the state they are obviously HELPLESS to CHANGE -- themselves...

This is how and why I question the label of "holiness" to books outside the BIBLE.

DEATH is a mystery... Evolution cannot explain the existence of it... as they try to explain that LIFE "evolved" by itself... when asked why DEATH accompanied it, they are without an answer (save for bumbling reply that it is just part of the process).  For the LIFE they claim to understand came from NON-LIFE, has no reasonable explanation why DE-EVOLUTION (which is a DECENDING) should occur in a process that is ASCENDING. 

DEATH is the ultimate DE-EVOLUTION of LIFE... and is a blatant descending, which is illogical within a process of assension... something like a FIRE which has unlimited fuel, PUTTING ITSELF OUT.

As my dear sister CARD has already noted... REINCARNATION is just a glorified and mystical WORKS OREINTED proposal.  That one must participate in "DO-OVERS" until he/she "gets it"...  Thereby expelling the need of a SAVIOR to rescue us from our IMPERFECTIONS... as WE in our IMPERFECT approach, "brace" CHRIST, instead of HIM "bracing" us... and WE thereby SAVE ourselves from our INHERENT IMPERFECTIONS, becoming PERFECT via IMPERFECT means.

As I said previously, ...even though the JEWS had such imaginations (reincarnation), does not mean that those imaginations emerged from God. 

On the contrary... the religion of JUDAISM is noted as (in part - and for the most part) BLINDED by God -- Rom 11:25 -- CHRIST also noting the TEACHERS of JUDAISM as BLIND -- Matt 23:17-19 -- as well as the fact that JEWS are amongst ALL men (imperfect and in need of Salvation) which also begin with HEARTS that are DESPARATELY WICKED -- Jer 17:9 --

Therefore if we try utilizing the thought that the JEWS "believed" (or seemed to believe) in reincarnation as the potential that it is an actual part of the living and "SAVING" process...  Said "process" is basically shown by the WORD to be just another human distortion, believed by BLIND "observers"...

As for me, I don't buy it... because all other options (other religions or evolution), end up with UNREASONABLE conclusions (perfection/completion) based upon an INCOMPLETE foundational proposals.

Like EVOLUTION, ...it has FAR too many HOLES in it, which negate it to be considered TRUTH...