We are under many laws

[GraceFull]

Gracefull,

Perhaps you might explain to us why we have prisons here on earth if we do not have any laws which we can break. This is really at the core of this discussion - - which I may say again - - that no person, me included has denied that the law is indeed dead pertaining to our salvation, inheritance with God, relationship with God ect...but yet when someone offers a quick soundbyte such as "The law is dead :bgdance: :bgdance: :icon_king: :icon_queen:", it makes it seems as though they have not read my posts here at all, and it makes it seem as though I have not made a distinction between our covenant and the law, which I, by the way, have made the complete distinction -- come on guys, people break laws every day and are punished for it with prison sentences, or death sentences - - so when one of these soundbytes appear, it seems all my writing on this entire thread goes out the window and that person received quick praise and the whole purpose of this thread is killed.



We know the law is dead pertaining to our salvation, inheritance, relationship with God, we know the debt was paid, we know that the just stand in faith - - these are all good things :bgdance: :bgdance: :Sparkletooth:  This thread was in no means started to dispute these issues.



Now would either Gizmo or Gracefull please address at least one or two of the seperate issues about the law that I was seeking to discuss? Otherwise, its just distracting to what I was attempting to discuss here.

Dear articmonster2003: I apologize. Of course, we have civil laws that result in punishment if violated. I'm really sorry if I unintentionally distracted from the point of your posts. My response pertained to "The Law" - not laws in general. Forgive me?  :bowing:

[jabcat]

As I have never been under a "spiritual leader", perhaps I do not understand just how far these discussions may bring self-condemnation to some people (I am basing this on the above quote, as I did not know that it went this far for some people, and I am happy you overcame this). As I have posted this in an open discussion area, perhaps I didn't fully understand and consider that people whom currently may be struggling with these concepts, or struggled heavily with them in the past might be hindered or brought into a state of self-condemnation throught my ponderings.

Not a problem, we just sometimes don't understand each other, and that's why the continuing to communicate "in love, preferring one another" is so important...so we don't divide based on our perceived differences.  I'd like to post more to you later when I get to work, Father's giving me a thought or two on this I'd like to share that may be helpful...in the meantime, God's blessing.

Dear articmonster2003: I apologize. Of course, we have civil laws that result in punishment if violated. I'm really sorry if I unintentionally distracted from the point of your posts. My response pertained to "The Law" - not laws in general. Forgive me?  :bowing:

Very nice Graceful, :friendstu:.

[arcticmonster2003]

quote graceful

Dear articmonster2003: I apologize. Of course, we have civil laws that result in punishment if violated. I'm really sorry if I unintentionally distracted from the point of your posts. My response pertained to "The Law" - not laws in general. Forgive me? 

Of course I forgive you, I also have unintentionally distracted from the point of others peoples threads at times, its really no big deal.

[Gizmo]

Perhaps you might explain to us why we have prisons here on earth if we do not have any
laws which we can break.

I too was confused about the purpose of the thread.  My apologies.  Gracefull answered this pretty well.

you see no difference on either side as you consider that the laws were abolished for not just our relationship with God, but abolished completely from our fleshly lives even if our deed are wicked

One source of confusion for the church is the term "fleshly".  Scripture uses it to describe our flesh and blood, Paul uses it to describe his Jewish kin, and his old nature that desires to be right with God by his actions.  It is important to clarify how you mean this and how people using the term are trying to use it.

I'm not trying to avoid your questions, but trying to get to the root of the problem.  If you still have questions, let me know.

Thanks,
Giz

[HartleyIrvinDamboiseII]

Just sharing my views on the law - which often we are told we are not under, but I disagree.

I agree that our covenant for eternal life is not based upon the law
I agree that our righteousness is not determined by the law
I agree that we cannot possibly actually follow the letter of the law, as it requires priests,  and such
I agree that we have been released from any responsiblity to judge others according to the law.
I agree that the law was written in such a way that it took the whole nation in order to follow it effectively

We are often told in the NT to flee from immorality, right? Well, where is the definition of what God considers immorality? Shall we make up our own or Is it not in the law? Such as:

Leviticus 20:15  And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.
16  And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Now it is not within our power to follow through with the punishments for these immoralities, first off because the laws are set up in such a way that a whole country has to adopt these laws in order for any punishments according to the law to be carried out, lest we break the laws of the land, thus breaking the law to keep the law, but we do learn from the law that to have intercourse with an animal is immorality, and can therefore keep ourselves from commiting immorality in ignorance. (I am stretching it a bit here to make a point)

Reading through the laws that govern immorality, general courtesy and such, I can find no flaws. Lets look at this one:

Leviticus 19:33  And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
34  But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

I see nothing wrong with Leviticus 19:33 - basically the law defined proper ways of dealing with people
Now, Jesus told us that Love fulfills the law - it is the motivation behind the law.

Or how about this one:

Leviticus 19:17  Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
18  Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.


Now there are many, many laws - and those in Christ know that they can fulfill the law through love, and so a detailed knowledge of the law is not required - just act in love and you will be in accordance to the law in most cases. But it is not through love that you can discern all immorality is it (maybe you really love your animal)? All scripture is profitable for instruction - including the law.

I think that a very confusing message is being thrown at christians today - they are told they are not under the law - say again? We are under very many laws, starting with city laws, county laws, state laws, federal laws, and yes, biblical laws. And there are punishments for breaking them.

Point blank - if your habit is to have intercourse with animals, God will judge you for it, this judgement could be anything from hardships in this life that you do not even associate with any divine judgement, to possibly just hardening your heart so that you live in darkness during your stay in the flesh, but yes, we do reap what we sow, and yes, the biblical laws do provide a very good explantion of things we should not do. So yes, we are under many, many laws - - -though our covenant for eternal life isn't based upon them.


This is how I see it anyway, anybody see it different?

[/size][/color]



I totally disagree with the quote above[/color][/size]


FREE TO LIVE—LAW AND GRACE


              Can you worship God while you eat bacon?  Not under the Old Testament law because the law of Moses says pigs are unclean (Deut. 14.8 ).  But most Christians keep some part of the law, if not about pork, then something else.  They are sometimes called "yardstick Christians."  To them hair has to be so long, the sleeve a certain length or the hemline on higher than a set place on the leg.  In one group a person cannot wear a bow, in another ties are outlawed altogether.  Some places it is all right to have pierced ears, others, it is not.  In one church a woman is out of place if she does not wear makeup, in another she is out of place if she does, In one church it is proper to wear a wedding ring, in another it is not.  Some places you should dress fashionably, and other places very plain.  Some congregations are even taught to question your salvation if you miss Sunday School.  This is not a complaint against churches or groups that teach or believe any of these things.  The purpose of this study is to identify them and put them in their proper place.      So, do not get up-tight if we mention something you strongly believe in.   Colossians and Ephesians were written to tell us that we should not go back to the law.  Judaizers (those who mix law and grace) want to put Christians back under Moses.  Circumcision was the main New Testament argument, but it could be many other things besides circumcision that they want you to do nowadays because they want you to conform to Moses and their standards.  We are presently under Jesus, and we are to pay attention to His words, not Moses`.  Moses` law will put us under condemnation and death.   (Matt. 16:17-18 –The Foundation –Revelation)

                   Now here is a catch tho, If you desire to leave the law—you are wrong, The law was given for your protection and you need it.  That is, you even need to keep the letter of the law Until the Holy Spirit leads you out of it.
                Sometimes when an immature Christian learns that there is freedom from the law of Moses through(Dia) Jesus Christ, they commits improper or immoral acts that he has been wanting to do but has refrained from because of the restrictions of the law.  We cannot use our freedom from the law when we are motivated by our fleshly desire.  "Unto the pure all things are pure; but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled"  (Titus 1:15).  "For brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another (Gal. 5:13). "But take heed lest by any means the liberty of yours become a stumbling block to them that are weak". (1 Cor 8:9).
                               LEAVE THE OLD LAW
                   God gave us another example of the fact that He wants us to leave the law of Moses and start paying attention to His grace and the love of Jesus Christ in Matthew 17.  We find that Jesus took Peter, James and John apart to a high mountain.  A voice from out of a cloud said, " This (Jesus) is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased; hear ye HIM", not Moses (the law) or Elias ( Elijah the prophets).
       "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law (of Moses); ye are fallen from grace" ( Gal.. 5:4)
THIEVES AND ROBBERS
                   Jesus said, "All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers (John 10:8)."
"All that ever came before me" includes the law of Moses and the prophecy of Elijah.  The law and the prophets did not lead the people to God.  Rather they were a type and a shadow (or a schoolmaster) to point people to Jesus Christ.  Because people believed they could get to God through (Moses) and prophets (Elijah) they were robber.  People ended up in condemnation and death.  Lets leave condemnation and death and enter the love and freedom of Jesus Christ.
                                          ELEMENTS SHALL MELT
                   We recently ran across a strange development in Bible Study.  It changes our whole concept about what is going to be burned up. 
     Most of us have been taught that sometime in the future the whole world is going to be destroyed by fire.  In studying the "elements" that are going to melt with fervent heat we found the word for "elements" in the Greek is STOICHEION.
    In every case where the word STOICHEION is used in the New Testament it represents the law of Moses. ( Element in Gal. 4:3,9 and II Peter 3:10, 12—Rudiment in Col. 2:8,20—Principle in Heb. 5:12)  ( sin & death- FCT.Eby – 28:1 – Sin free)
    The Conclusion of this study is that God's supernatural fire will melt (break up) the law of Moses which brings death.  The thing that is keeping us in this present world (age) and preventing us from entering the new world ( age ) ---wherein dwelleth righteousness—is the law of Moses (II peter 3:5-13).

Please read Carefully.
         A confirming idea is in 1Cor 15:53-56.  The grave is the product of death.  The sting of death is sin.  The strength of sin is the LAW.  Conversely, when the law is fulfilled there is no more sin.  When there is no sin there is no sting of death.   
          The conclusion of this is that one step toward entering immortality is entering the law of Jesus by being LED by the Holy Spirit, not the law of Moses. (Matt. 16:17-18 ) too.
         "Behold I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed, [ I Believe, Lee Damboise II, this happens when one becomes (Awakened by God )

                                                 NEW LAWS
         "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory?  "The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the LAW" (1 Cor. 15:52-56 ).  Notice that the LAW is the strength of sin. Moses' Law    To them who be patient continuance in well doing, seek for glory and honor and immortality, (God will render) eternal life (Rom. 2:7 ).   The bible teaches us to seek immortality ( the state of NOT DYING) by being led by the Holy Spirit out of the Law of Moses into the law of Jesus Christ which is Love.

SPY ON YOUR LIBERTY
                   Paul wrote about some false brothers who crept into his meetings unawares.  They came in to spy out the liberty which was being practiced in Paul's meetings. Paul said that the purpose of the men was to bring Paul's group into bondage of Moses` Law (Gal. 2:4 )even though they were Christians.    Notice that Paul clearly states he was not subject to those men – not even for an hour.  In other words, while Paul was in charge of the meetings, group, city, etc...he felt HE should be led by the Holy Spirit.  Those men had no right to sneak in to put his people under the bondage of the law --  they were free in Jesus Christ to be led by the Holy Spirit.   However, when Paul went up to the (Born again--Jewish Circumised Law Christians, Peter's Gospel)  at Jerusalem, where they were still under the law, then he acted in a completely opposite way.  Paul recognized the TEMPORAL authority the church leaders had over him because he was on their ground.  So he did what the local hierarchy (Acts 21:23 ) told him to do even though he was warned be the Holy Spirit( Acts 21:4 ) not to go back to the Jewish Christians at Jerusalem (back to the law).

               Thus, we see that he acted in two different ways.  In Galicia he absolutely was not subject to the Christian Jews but in Jerusalem he was.   To bring this where we live now  if you are on your own ground, doing your own thing, being led by the Holy Spirit, then keep it up!  If someone comes in to tell you your way is wrong and that your people would be closer to God and More pleasing to Him by keeping some sort of law, commandment, tradition, or such like—you do not have to obey them.  It will not hurt to listen to them, if you continue to be led by the Holy Spirit, not them.  But if you leave Your location and go to "Theirs," you better keep their rules, remembering that you are finding favor with them, not God ( Rom. 14 ).   There are still some people around who want to put us back under Moses` law.  As far as I can see--- Jesus Christ did fulfill the O.T. laws of God and gave us simply and only four N.T. commandments, pg.134..  The study of those four simple commandments has been developed in this report. ( The book, Free to Live ), it is not an error to teach that Jesus said He came to fulfill the law.  Col. 2:20 told us that submission to ordinances is nothing but a show of wisdom and does not do a thing to check the flesh.  Jesus forgave my trespasses by blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against me (Col 2:14.)  As God gives me grace I don't think I'll let any Man judge me in regard to meat, drink, respect of holiday, new moon, or sabbath ( Col. 2:16 ) I believe that I am Justified by the faith of  Jesus Christ,  NOT MY FAITH, His faith, and not by Works of The LAW.  "Knowing that a man is not justified by works of the law, but by the faith of Him, Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ that we might be Justified by the faith of JC and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no man be justified" (Gal. 2:16 )  "If righteousness came by the law then Christ is dead in vain"  (Gal. 2:21 ). See J.C's Faith or Yours.
          "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage"[ LAW ]  ( Gal. 5:1 )  "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by  law; ye are fallen from grace" Gal 5:4  "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even this, Thou  shalt love thy neighbor as thyself" ( Gal. 5:14 ).  Wherefore the law was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ that we might be justified by Faith, (Who's faith but His Not Ours) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.  Gal. 2:16  ;  K.J.V. ONLY   & Gal. 3:24 K.J.V. ONLY.

                       

[HartleyIrvinDamboiseII]

                        GOD DOES NOT CHANGE--METHODS DO
                   
                   God does not change but His methods of dealing with us do change as we mature.  As an example, the law did not come until four hundred and thirty years after Abraham.  Abraham was a man of faith and God rewarded him for it.  But he sure was not a man of law.  If he would have been alive about 450 years later---when people were judged by the law---he would probably have been stoned for the way he treated his wife and lied to the kings.  But remember, there was no law and consequently no sin.  You see, Abraham represented an age or period of time before there was any law.
           Therefore God dealt with him on the basis of his faith.  He could not be judged by the law because there was no law.   
     In reference to the fact that there is no sin if there is no law ---  also connect the thought that overcoming the law will remove us from the curse of death, 1 Cor. 15:55-58 says, " O death, where is thy sting?  O grave, where is thy victory?  The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.   But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through{ Dia. } our Lord Jesus Christ."  This indicates that death comes because of sin and sin comes because of the law.  Conversely, it might be interpreted that the law brings sin and sin brings death.  Remembering that we are to seek immortality  (Rom.2:7)   
Perhaps a clue to entering the state of immortality is to eliminate the cause of death which is sin and law.  Since Jesus fulfilled the law and brought us four simple new ones( laws ), we may find the process of entering immortality will involve our keeping Jesus' four commandments and not allowing our minds to condemn ourselves when we are led by the Holy Spirit to do things that are against the commandments of Moses. 
                   I am presently convinced there is no authority for teaching the idea that the O.T. is to be divided into sections and that some of those sections are not to be followed and that some are to be used as law even now.  Some have said there is a difference between the commands and the rituals.  But I disagree.  I cannot find any scriptural difference.  To get a little technical, the TORAH is the law and it includes the total of everything concerning it.  The TSAVAH is the prime commandment and it includes the rituals and lots of other statutes too---  including the Ten Commandments ( words ).  The MISHPAT is the judgment.  The CHOQ is the statute and decree.  The MITSVAH is from the TSAVAH and is a commandment.  The DABAR is a "word" and is used in the Ten Commandments ( word ) sometimes called DECALOG  ( or the 10 words ).

               The EDAH  is a testimony or witness and comes from the idea to duplicate.  The CHUQQAH    is a statute or ordinance or decreed limit.  These are eight O.T. words that are used interchangeably in our translations.  Concerning the O.T. law; there is just no way to decide which ones to keep and which to throw out.  In checking out the article which pleads with us to return to the law, I noticed that the author quoted some of the better commands ( TSAVAH ) such as apply to health, government and military ideas  --  and I agree   --  but there was no mention of the commands  ( TSAVAH ) which are impossible to keep in OUR PRESENT SOCIETY.  For example, give dead animal meat to a stranger and sell to alien but don't eat it yourself ( Deut. 14:21 ).  I wouldn't want to give or sell bad meat to anyone.  Also, offer no blemished sacrifice (Deut. 17:1 ). Well, I don't intend to offer any sacrifice at all --  blemished or not.  How about  --  stone the wicked person (Deut. 17:5 ) ?
           I don't believe Jesus wants me to stone anybody..  ? The commandments say if I take a beautiful women captive in a battle I am to leave her alone for a month before having sexual intercourse with her ( Deut. 21:10 ) When  I was in the U. S. Navy in the Korean War I never intended to keep that commandment by having sexual intercourse with any captive woman  --  and my wife Agreed !  How about the command that the son of your hated wife is to receive the greater inheritance if born before the son of your beloved wife ?  The only way I know how to keep that command is to engage in polygamy and I do not intend to keep that command.  In fact, my government would prosecute me, my society would persecute me and MY WIFE WOULD EXECUTE ME if I did keep it !  The command ( TSAVAH ) is to kill your stubborn, rebellious child.  I'm glad that my parents didn't keep that one!  The command ( TSAVAH ) says that a rapist MUST marry his victim ( any age ) if she is not engaged to another man ( Deut. 22:28 ).  I find it inconceivable that anyone would want to go back to the commandments of the O. T.
                   It is a thrill to me to know that my Savior Jesus Christ made it all simple by condensing (8) different words and hundreds of different ways of translating them into       ( 4 ) simple commands.

     1.   Watch for the return of the Son of Man (Second coming ) (Mark 13:34 ) I Lee Damboise II, believes this is when a person is(Born again--Jewish Circumised Law Christians, Peter's Gospel) or US GENTILES (Adopted into the body of Christ--Jews + Gentiles, Pauls Gospel, Grace )].  And has NOTHING to do with a Rapture Lie.
2.    Love each other (John 15:17 ).
    3.   When we minister we are to preach and teach that ( Acts 10:41-43 ):
A.   Jesus was ordained of God
B.   Jesus brings remission of sins to believers...
4.     Be a light to the Gentiles ( which you were ), Acts 13: 47.
                                       Now I feel FREE TO LIVE

[micah7:9]

Are you preaching? Has the fire got you? Why so long posts? Its just me, just what are you trying to tell me?

[HartleyIrvinDamboiseII]

I am not telling you nothing personally , just that the post got at my nerve that is sensitive to those that are teaching the message of death... i.e. angels of darkness. i.e. those that are pretending to be angels  of light... Good New message ,   messengers. When in reality are teaching that there is no way out of sin / Death in this earth life, so you have to " Live " with that fact.... in which it is the biggest Lie ever sold to human kind.

[Molly]

For example, give dead animal meat to a stranger and sell to alien but don't eat it yourself ( Deut. 14:21 ). 

Actually, there are those who consider themselves under the law who still do this, and they have been conditioned to think it's ok because it is the law.  Is it ok except in the most primitive of societies?  There are those who keep doing the same bad things over and over and consider their sins atoned for under the law.  Is this what God expected?

The only way to be free is through Christ, and the royal commandments kept through him.  Enjoyed your post, Lee.