Soon after the beautiful declaration concerning the salvation of all mankind in Phil. 2:10-11 Paul exhorts the church in Phil. 2:12 "So then, my beloved, even as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
This confounds me that God wants us to be in fear and trembling as we work out going through the process of being conformed to His image. The word used is (fob-os) "from a primary phebomai (to be put in fear); alarm or fright: be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror." The same word is used in 1 John 1:4-18 "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear has punishment. He who fears is not made perfect in love." Here John tells us ...perfect love casts out fear and... he who fears has not yet been perfected by love.
These verses appear to contradict one another. I looked at the preposition "with" being used and it seems to me the use of "against" is allowable. I'm not really well versed in the rules of grammar but can anyone tell me why "against", which resolves the contradiction, cannot or should not be used instead of "with?"
By using "against" the following verse 2:13 "For it is God who works in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure." makes much more sense to me. I don't know ... your thoughts and corrections are welcome if I have misconstrued this passage.
Blessings,
Merks
Have you seen https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/ It is a really neat site for this type of question. You get answers pretty quickly.
What you said does make sense, the way you put it the verses are more harmonious with each other. But if the traditional translation is right, I think the reason for the harsh language is that it is typical of Judgement language. As unpleasant as fear is, it serves a purpose. We have all extorted, in one sense or another, our brothers and sisters and part of judgement is receiving the pain we gave out. Of course we are forgiven, but through the pain we get, we are healed by God (the one we also pierced). IMO
Hello FatBird, thank you for the link and your reply. This verse has always troubled me even when I was firmly entrenched in the E.T. Camp. I always thought fear meant respect but the word chosen by the Holy Spirit doesn't really allow for such interpretation.
The verse in 1 John calls attention to being afraid of punishment and John concludes this is due to lack of appropriating God's love. I agree it fits the fear monger mentality and that is what makes me feel so sad about this verse. It's like the verse is saying work out your Christian life fearing and trembling that God will punish you for getting out of line. I'm not talking about the discipline and correction of God but to make that the driving motivation for the process for being conformed to the image of God; that is a tough pill to swallow and showers contempt on the kindness and love of our Father in heaven.
Especially when being followed up by verse 13 which bring me so much joy.
Thanks again for your feedback and the link.
Blessings,
Merks
Good work. I'd be interested in the answer to this, if the hermeneutics folks come back with anything. ...I've not sat and read the Bible in a long time, but I'm constantly abiding, listening, and weighing and testing. The rhema has to trump the logos.
Good morning Age-, thanks for your feedback. I will sign up at that sight this weekend and post this question. I'll be sure to post the reply here on TM. I'm curious about your Rhema Trumps the Logos comment. Can you elaborate? I have always looked at them as being inseparable. The Spirit gives life and illuminates the thought of the Logos. A little rushed for work this morning so I'll check back tonight afterwards in the evening.
Thanks again,
Blessings,
Merks
I believe the logos is Christ. The Bible is not the logos, and as far as the Bible defining itself as such, my understanding is it never has done so. The Bible to me is scripture/writings on the subject of God, the Israelites, and Jesus.
Hi Merks,
Yes, I believe the rhema trumps the logos, because ultimate meaning resides in the heart. And that is where the revealed word is seated. The written word cannot be trusted as to its meaning and intent, and literary scholars know and agree upon this. Each person is responsible for weighing and testing, and this is where the espousal of doctrine and orthodoxy is a myopic and parochial level of spirituality - it is immature, and discounts the work of the spirit to draw all men to Abba in His way, and His time, via the paths of His choosing. I'm not saying some of the Bible is not scripture, but a lot of it is narrative, and seeded with the ideas of man. It all has to be weighed and tested. The apostles, for example were steeped in religious tradition, especially Paul, and it's upon that that much of the organisational church draws its controlling and hierarchical power, i.e. believe what we believe or you're not part of us. Christ on the other hand is the manifold Oneness of everything and everyone reconciled to the Father, though they don't know it.
Blessings,
Age
P.S. As regards Jesus. He is not Christ per se, but he is in Christ, just as you and I are.
I like your post Age-enduring, but here I go and ruin everything though, by quoting some scripture. :icon_jokercolor:
First start by saying, I think we are words from God's 'mouth' that have gone out from Jesus (eg. Gen.2:7) and will return to God.
verily, verily, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his lord, nor an apostle greater than he who sent him; (John 13:16)
out of us they went forth, but they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but -- that they might be manifested that they are not all of us. (1 John 2:19)
A disciple is not above his teacher, but every one perfected shall be as his teacher. (Luke 6:40)
So is My word that goeth out of My mouth, It turneth not back unto Me empty, But hath done that which I desired, And prosperously effected that for which I sent it. (Isaiah 55:11)
In this realm/body everything seems to die. The truth in our hearts goes out of our mouths, is not received and dies alone. But in the future, it will be a constant chorus of life.
verily, verily, I say to you, if the grain of the wheat, having fallen to the earth, may not die, itself remaineth alone; and if it may die, it doth bear much fruit; (John 12:24)
All of these verses mean other things, does that mean they don't mean what I said they mean?
I don't like debates, or arguments. I don't want to change anyone after my image. The only 'Word' I want to see in everyone is God.
People can and do believe whatever they will believe. It is sad when someone treats another badly because the word that is in their heart, that is not God.
The beautiful thing about scripture is that it speaks of the truth and the 'ultimate meaning residing in your heart' can speak to you through it. Just because he may say something different to you and me, doesn't devalue what he has shown either of us.
I like reading old threads, there was a poster some of you may know personally called Nathan. His words often lift me up, he said something about how we are to put down our swords and turn them into ploughshares.
Thanks for sharing, Peace. :Peace2:
Just on the original topic, I don't think fear and trembling are meant to be our motivation, but are just par for the course, perhaps they are meant to be contrasted by the love on the other side. Like flesh vs spirit, fear vs love. If that reading of the verse is the intended reading.
Quote from: Age-enduring on February 14, 2020, 03:47:44 PM
Yes, I believe the rhema trumps the logos, because ultimate meaning resides in the heart. And that is where the revealed word is seated. The written word cannot be trusted as to its meaning and intent, and literary scholars know and agree upon this. I'm not saying some of the Bible is not scripture, but a lot of it is narrative, and seeded with the ideas of man.
emphasis mine
Call us immature I guess, but we just don't debate this issue here. As stated earlier, the default position for discussion at TM is that the scriptures/written word, accurately translated and Spirit-revealed are trustworthy, and discussion is within the scriptures/written word. Rejecting the trustworthiness of scripture is considered a slippery slope that typically leads to personal speculation, imagination, and often apostasy ("every man doing what is right in his own eyes").
https://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/moderatortm-expectations-regarding-the-scriptures/msg84791/#msg84791
Thanks.
Quote from: Age-enduring on February 14, 2020, 03:47:44 PM
Hi Merks,
Yes, I believe the rhema trumps the logos, because ultimate meaning resides in the heart. And that is where the revealed word is seated. The written word cannot be trusted as to its meaning and intent, and literary scholars know and agree upon this. Each person is responsible for weighing and testing, and this is where the espousal of doctrine and orthodoxy is a myopic and parochial level of spirituality - it is immature, and discounts the work of the spirit to draw all men to Abba in His way, and His time, via the paths of His choosing. I'm not saying some of the Bible is not scripture, but a lot of it is narrative, and seeded with the ideas of man. It all has to be weighed and tested. The apostles, for example were steeped in religious tradition, especially Paul, and it's upon that that much of the organisational church draws its controlling and hierarchical power, i.e. believe what we believe or you're not part of us. Christ on the other hand is the manifold Oneness of everything and everyone reconciled to the Father, though they don't know it.
Blessings,
Age
P.S. As regards Jesus. He is not Christ per se, but he is in Christ, just as you and I are.
Hi Age,
thank you for your reply and I can appreciate your thoughts concerning orthodoxy and religious tradition. Since seeing the fallacy of the doctrine of ET and the beauty of God's ultimate plan of healing for all the nations I have questioned and am questioning ... Everything I formerly believed. I believe this is honoring to Christ. I am basically spending my time re-reading the Scriptures with open eyes to whatever God may show me and this site is and has been a great gift to me.
Thank you again for your thoughts and I look forward to reading any more thoughts you may share. Whether or note I concur with them is yet to be determined.
Blessings,
Merks
PS I posted my original question on the site provided by FatBird and will post any reply's I receive.
Ok, thanks Merks. I'm not sticking around. I'll just not post anymore. You may PM me to suggest alternative meeting places or for what have you.
Regards,
Age
Here are two reply's from the hermeneutics site concerning the question I put forward in my post.
1). "The preposition meta is translated not only as 'with', but more accurately as 'among' or 'amid'. It isn't so much a physical positioning alongside, but rather 'in company with' as a collective sense.
Paul seems to be acknowledging the Philippians' fear and doubt upon hearing of his imprisonment, and encouraging them to continue their work amid this fear - to not let their fear keep them from working towards this salvation for themselves.
The following verse 2:13 reassures them that God works in them amid this fear, "to will and to work for His good pleasure"."
2)."The operative word here is φόβου (phobou) from the root noun φόβος (phobos). BDAG lists several meanings for this word:
Intimidating entity: (a) intimidation, eg, 1 Peter 3:14. (b) (concretely) something terrible/awe-inspiring, a terror, eg, Rom 13:3, 2 Cor 5:11.
The product of an intimidating/alarming force: (a) fear, alarm, fright, eg, 1 Cor 7:11, 1 Peter 1:17, 1 Cor 2:3, 2 Cor 7:15, etc. (b) reverence, respect, eg, Phil 2:12, Rom 3:18, 13:7, 2 Cor 7:1, Acts 9:31, 2 Cor 5:11, Eph 5:21, 6:5, 1 Peter 2:18, 3:2, etc.
It is significant that BDAG attributes the meaning (2b) in Phil 2:12; that is reverence or respect.
The Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges comments on this verse by saying, with fear and trembling] not of tormenting misgiving (cp. 1 John 4:18), but of profound reverence and wakeful conscience. So 1 Corinthians 2:3; 2 Corinthians 7:15; Ephesians 6:5.
Matthew Poole observes on this verse:
With fear and trembling; i.e. with a holy care to do all acceptably: he doth by these two words mean not any servile fear and slavish despondency, arising from doubting, Philippians 4:4, but only a serious, filial fear, implying a deep humility and submissiveness of mind, with a reverential awe of the Divine Majesty, and a solicitude to avoid that evil which is offensive to him and separates from him. We find these words used to the like import, Psalm 2:11 Daniel 5:19 Daniel 6:26 Romans 11:20 with 1 Corinthians 2:3 2 Corinthians 7:5 Ephesians 6:5;"
I tend to lean towards the first reply as it seems to fall more inline with the heart felt love Paul had for the Philippians church and the overall character of his letter. It also harmonizes with 1 John 4:18. Nevertheless, I can also respect the other reply also. It's the trembling part that I get hung up on that is still associated with the second reply. That is to say I don't believe He would have us to tremble. Should we be in awe? YES! Reverence Him? YES! But tremble? Can't process that one.
Blessings,
Merks
Quote from: jabcat on February 14, 2020, 09:11:41 PM
Quote from: Age-enduring on February 14, 2020, 03:47:44 PM
Yes, I believe the rhema trumps the logos, because ultimate meaning resides in the heart. And that is where the revealed word is seated. The written word cannot be trusted as to its meaning and intent, and literary scholars know and agree upon this. I'm not saying some of the Bible is not scripture, but a lot of it is narrative, and seeded with the ideas of man.
emphasis mine
Call us immature I guess, but we just don't debate this issue here. As stated earlier, the default position for discussion at TM is that the scriptures/written word, accurately translated and Spirit-revealed are trustworthy, and discussion is within the scriptures/written word. Rejecting the trustworthiness of scripture is considered a slippery slope that typically leads to personal speculation, imagination, and often apostasy ("every man doing what is right in his own eyes").
https://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/moderatortm-expectations-regarding-the-scriptures/msg84791/#msg84791
Thanks.
Amen. :thumbsup: The Spirit does not contradict the Word/Torah, nor does the Word/Torah contradict the Spirit. In every instance where it may appear to, it's our understanding of one or the other, or both, that is at fault; I've never seen it fail once understanding is given. In all your getting, get understanding, is not written for nothing. Each is a witness to the other, removing one or the other from the equation results in faulty "construction", for one is the level (Word/Torah) and the other is the plumb line (Spirit), and He is the Master builder. You just can't out do God, no matter how hard man tries to. Blessings....
Quote from: Age-enduring on February 15, 2020, 01:40:58 PM
Ok, thanks Merks. I'm not sticking around. I'll just not post anymore. You may PM me to suggest alternative meeting places or for what have you.
Regards,
Age
Age,
please take this in the spirit of brotherly love for which it is intended but it seems you are now sounding a bit immature. Jabcat was performing his duty as admin to inform you of the position Tentmaker has established for this forum concerning the veracity of Scripture. You should feel free to contribute on this forum and I hope you will. Iron sharpens iron and differing thoughts on various subjects make for a more interesting discussion. Have you had a chance to review the feedback provided by the Hermeneutic forum? Thoughts?
Blessings,
Merks
Immaturely? :icon_jokercolor:
...I think the issue is that I didn't read the strict guidelines for participating here - I don't feel believers should have that level of fear - it only indicates the presence of strongholds, especially that of religion. I've no problem with the guidelines now I've been made aware of them and read them myself. The only issue is that I can't be hemmed in to it, i.e. the written word in the Bible being the total scope and boundary of what can be discussed. It makes it tantamount to a select club; 'believe what we believe and you're in - don't, and you're out.'. I've been there too many times. God speaks His word outside of the tent / Bible as well - it actually resides in the heart, especially of those who've crossed over.
I've found it slightly bizarre how 'nice' people are with one another - oh so very affirming and warm, but now it dawns on me how narrow the set of belief values has to be, I'm kind of thinking TM is more like a cult, which is what the church has become.
It makes perfect sense that the new wineskins are not that model anymore.
I haven't read the hermeneutics responses yet, because this little episode has kind if eclipsed it. I may read it later, but the likelihood of responding at the moment is very low.
Regards,
Age
There's really nothing I could say to you that you would hear/receive. However, in my stubbornness I guess, I'll just say the following, with no intent to continue in ongoing struggle. The forum guidelines are clearly posted, including reasons why.
We all agree to discuss WITHIN the scriptures - as the guidelines say, not according to any one translation or no person's own ideas/beliefs crammed down another's throats - much latitude given for various understandings, but WITHIN the scriptures.
For those who feel they've evolved beyond the written word, TM probably just isn't the place for them. We still believe the scriptures/written word are a large PART of how God communicates with us. https://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/the-doctrine-of-the-ages/msg216650/#msg216650
Unfortunately, I'm seeing a movement in discussion circles where those rejecting or "re-imagining" the scriptures are adopting their own version of lawlessness while calling it love and maturity; while presenting ideas and "teachings" that are actually against the written word, so IMO, are products of their own imaginations - or in some cases, worse. This is an unfortunate error that again IMO, needs to be identified with discernment, as it can insidiously creep in and affect others' faith and faithfulness, especially harmful to the weaker and vulnerable. Also, it causes chaos and disputes, which is a main reason we agreed to not do that here. Many don't like it for whatever reason, and move on to where they feel most comfortable (at the moment). That is understood.
Your last paragraph is exactly the issue.
The Lord is my shepherd (yes, my actual shepherd), and the same applies to every single believer. If on the other hand, they're happy being led by man, they need to learn a bit more.
Christianity requires Jesus to be God, or it loses power over people. Not to say that Jesus doesn't have a ministry, but he didn't consider equality with God something to be grasped. As soon as we can point to a man (even a God-man) that has to be followed, there is a pattern established of "do as I say". I'm not saying I don't follow Jesus, but he regards me and all believers as his brothers and sisters, not as his creation.
As regards lawlessness; ones righteousness is supposed to surpass the law. Straining gnats and ramming camels through the eye of needles isn't what the weak and vulnerable need. When they will get their eyes off man, and off self, Abba will lead them by still waters, and restore.their souls.
Blessings,
Age
You're welcome to keep posting if, as we all agree to, it's according to forum guidelines (much latitude provided for). Which really isn't difficult, despite the kicking and screaming of some. :laugh: :dsunny:
Job 4:12 And unto me a thing is secretly brought, And receive doth mine ear a little of it.
13 In thoughts from visions of the night, In the falling of deep sleep on men,
14 Fear hath met me, and trembling, And the multitude of my bones caused to fear.
15 And a spirit before my face doth pass, Stand up doth the hair of my flesh;
16 It standeth, and I discern not its aspect, A similitude [is] over-against
mine eyes, Silence! and a voice I hear:
17 ‘Is mortal man than God more righteous? Than his Maker is a man cleaner?
Scared by the presence of God, bones fear God? I tend to think bones represent integrity, Jesus’s bones were not even chipped because he was true. The people of Israels bones were broken by the leaders of the house of Jacob who loved evil (Micah 3:3).
Does our being fear God because he changes our being? We are first to be earthy then we are made heavenly.
He is in the night and in the falling of deep sleep when he encounters the spirit/messenger of God. The falling of deep sleep makes me think of death, as does the darkness of the night. Light and darkness, righteousness and unrighteousness, clean and unclean. The bones shake with fear and trembling because of the holiness of God.
Maybe it is just the death that fears God?
Final edit- deleted edits because of incoherence and not adding anything of value to thread. All I wanted to say was that I think there is truth in what Age wrote.
Quote from: jabcat on February 14, 2020, 09:11:41 PM
Quote from: Age-enduring on February 14, 2020, 03:47:44 PM
Yes, I believe the rhema trumps the logos, because ultimate meaning resides in the heart. And that is where the revealed word is seated. The written word cannot be trusted as to its meaning and intent, and literary scholars know and agree upon this. I'm not saying some of the Bible is not scripture, but a lot of it is narrative, and seeded with the ideas of man.
emphasis mine
Call us immature I guess, but we just don't debate this issue here. As stated earlier, the default position for discussion at TM is that the scriptures/written word, accurately translated and Spirit-revealed are trustworthy, and discussion is within the scriptures/written word. Rejecting the trustworthiness of scripture is considered a slippery slope that typically leads to personal speculation, imagination, and often apostasy ("every man doing what is right in his own eyes").
https://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/moderatortm-expectations-regarding-the-scriptures/msg84791/#msg84791
Thanks.
Amen, Jeremiah wrote "the heart is deceitful above all things" so why would we trust it to be the source of truth..
The original languages clear up many things.. such as "fear" can also be translated as reverence which some verses make obvious..
Of course why wouldn't one who is misbehaving not "fear He who CAN" (but won't! according to so many other verses) "destroy both body and psyche"..?
With the Word, it's basically hell and forever - the mistranslated words that have caused all the error. Then some have s very hard time understanding the judgments of God and "wrath" - which I tend to think in most cases is consequences.. a natural iron law of reaping what one sows..
But also, imperfection - "missing the mark" - sin is a bottomless pit of potential and ALL depths are being allowed to run their course - PROVING the TWO fruits one from the other Good from evil.
Both prophecy & the Old Testament, has to speak to even the most depraved. But at maturity we know "God is love" & his wrath is results/fruit.
Now the times He did interfere and curb evil.. by the flood "when every thought" thus action "was evil" - it is not merciful to let such conditions continue, not to let humanity self destruct SO early on. AND next those folks will know will be resurrection. (As it was, imo, through Noah "a preacher of righteousness that the Lord went via the Spirit and preached to those pple while the ark was being prepared.)
And the wars with Canaan, they were burning babies alive as sacrifices to baal-molech.. also not love or mercy to let continue(!)
The world judges God. W/o knowing context..
And as far as death.. again natural consequence as He "gives breath to all" AND He "is perfect" - so "missing the mark" is the opposite of life.
And as for letting choices other than His run their course.. well how does He have genuinely able to think and reason beings AND keep paradise/perfection intact?
What He did was put the visible option of disobedience in the original garden of life.. And engineered it so all were thus subjected to disobedience..
In the end, "all" will be in union with God and sealed up from evil/death.. like a trinity! Father Most High and the Son forever Lord, and the individual.. a speck in comparison, lol..
sorry for typos.. gotten drive grandaughter to school :gsmile:
I don't think the Jeremiah quote implies that the heart is ubiquitously deceitful, because Jesus was always faithful. The heart is unfaithful to God until he heals us.
The heart is poetic language that implies our innermost will/desire. In our hearts, there is a fight between the flesh and the spirit. We are flesh first, (under the influence of sarx which is also spirit) and then we are made spiritual, (by fellowship with the Spirit of God). The greater blesses the lesser. As is the earthy, such are also the earthy; and as is the heavenly, such are also the heavenly. When we are earthy our hearts are the worst, but when we are made clean, as our spirits are purified, they reach moments of the greatest purity in worship of God.
It is in our hearts/spirits that we commune with God and receive truth, Paul said he worshipped God in his spirit.
for God is my witness, whom I serve in my spirit in the good news of His Son, how unceasingly I make mention of you, (Romans 1:9)
What then is it? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray also with the understanding; I will sing psalms with the spirit, and I will sing psalms also with the understanding; (1 Corinthians 14:15)
In the first chapter of Job, Satan implies that Job fears God because God has raised him up and given him extraordinary wealth, not because God is scary. But I think the new testament distinguishes between reverence (ἐντρέπω entrepó) and fear (φόβος phobos). But I could be wrong.
The Brill dictionary of Ancient Greek, defines φόβος (phobos) as
a)Flight, Panic, Confusion
b)Fear, Terror, Fright
c)Cause or object of terror or of fear
d)Person. Son of Ares
for all of us it behoveth to be manifested before the tribunal of the Christ, that each one may receive the things done through the body, in reference to the things that he did, whether good or evil; 11 having known, therefore, the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, and to God we are manifested, and I hope also in your consciences to have been manifested; 12 for not again ourselves do we recommend to you, but we are giving occasion to you of glorifying in our behalf, that ye may have something in reference to those glorifying in face and not in heart; (2 Corinthians 5:10-12)
Don't respect what is seen, but respect what is unseen, because God is a judge of the heart, but what people do in the flesh should result in the fear of God, (for whatever reason).
for I decided not to know any thing among you, except Jesus Christ, and him crucified; 3 and I, in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling, was with you; 4 and my word and my preaching was not in persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power -- 5 that your faith may not be in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. 6 And wisdom we speak among the perfect, and wisdom not of this age, nor of the rulers of this age -- of those becoming useless, 7 but we speak the hidden wisdom of God in a secret, that God foreordained before the ages to our glory, (1 Corinthians 2:2-7)
The first message is done in fear and trembling, but to the perfect, Paul preached wisdom. I think this a reminder not to batter people with the truth of God's unstoppable salvation of the whole world, but to first encourage them to seek Jesus and be reconciled with God. But God's love and salvation of the whole world is a very good reason to try and know God, I'm glad we don't have to consider the possibility of having to know a hate filled God. This is all just the way I see it.
Also in this passage, fear and trembling accompany demonstrations of the spirit and power of God.
Thus said Jehovah: Cursed is the man who doth trust in man, And hath made flesh his arm, And from Jehovah whose heart turneth. 6 And he hath been as a naked thing in a desert, And doth not see when good cometh, And hath inhabited parched places in a wilderness, A salt land, and not inhabited. 7 Blessed is the man who trusteth in Jehovah, And whose confidence hath been Jehovah. 8 And hath been as a tree planted by waters, And by a rivulet he sendeth forth his roots, And he doth not see when heat cometh, And his leaf hath been green, And in a year of dearth he is not sorrowful, Nor doth he cease from making fruit. 9 Crooked is the heart above all things, And it is incurable -- who doth know it? 10 I Jehovah do search the heart, try the reins, Even to give to each according to his way, According to the fruit of his doings. 11 A partridge hatching, and not bringing forth, Is one making wealth, and not by right, In the midst of his days he doth forsake it, And in his latter end -- he is a fool. 12 A throne of honour on high from the beginning, The place of our sanctuary, 13 The hope of Israel is Jehovah, All forsaking Thee are ashamed, And 'My apostates' in the earth are written, For they have forsaken Jehovah, A fountain of living waters. 14 Heal me, O Jehovah, and I am healed, Save me, and I am saved, for my praise art Thou. 15 Lo, they are saying unto me: 'Where is the word of Jehovah? pray, let it come.' (Jeremiah 17:5-15)
Funny how it seems to encapsulate everything, at least to me it does. Whatever the exact truth is, two things are always true. The man of sin must die (which might explain a spiritual and existential fear of God) and Yahweh saves.
I think things tend to have a physical and a spiritual application. This is a minority view, but I think Paul, the other apostles and Jesus were warning of the Judgement that was coming in 70AD. So the physical fear and trembling could be related to what happens to us on the earth. Those who did not flee to the mountains, trusting in the Lamb of God, but instead trusted in the physical blood above their doorposts, died really horrible deaths. So fear God. As well as a early spiritual stage of our progression to knowing God, when it is beneficial to be fearful or spiritually inevitable, also think that these things can be for symbolic reasons. :dontknow:
* A knowledge of what was about to happen to Israel would explain a physical fear and trembling.
Just thought I would post the other replies posted at the hermeneutic forum:
We may have to concern ourselves here with the word "salvation" and the particular meaning. It is always good when discussing theological issues to gain clarity by asking, "what do you mean by...?" We often project our assumptions onto what others are saying.
In the western churches – especially Evangelical – the tendency is to view "salvation" as a line to cross. Did you pray the prayer? Did you accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior? Then you are "saved."
On the Eastern side of Christianity, they have a different view of salvation. For them, salvation is a process that you engage in over your lifetime to transform yourself to be more and more like Christ. See 2 Peter 1:4. The west uses the term sanctification.
Eastern Churches use the word Theosis or Deification – which really bothers many westerners – because they misinterpret it to mean that you "become a god" yourself. That is incorrect. It is the process of becoming "like Christ" partaking in the divine nature. Becoming what God intended you to be – through the grace and power of Jesus Christ.
The "fear and trembling" which Paul speaks of comes through having to transform ourselves. God will provide the power to do it – but you must choose to walk that path. Authentic spiritual growth – also called Spiritual Formation – is difficult and takes courage.
Authentic growth calls us to face the reality of who we are and to shed or heal those areas of our life which are holding us back. Other biblical ways of describing this are "to separate the wheat from the chaff" – the chaff being those parts of you that are not serving you well and must be judged. Also, both Paul and Peter speak of dying to self – or having died to self in Christ. Spiritual growth – as a metaphor – is a "death-resurrection" cycle. You transform yourself by descending to the depths of who you are – judging that which needs judging – and emerging "renewed."
If you've experienced authentic spiritual growth you can feel this process in action. I can only describe the outcome as "expansion" – that I what it feels like. You see yourself more firmly as a child of God and "fear" is ultimately cast out.
In this passage, Paul is writing to those in Philippi - a Roman Colony. If you are going to move from being a pagan to a Christian - or Roman citizen who becomes a Christian - you are going to have to make major changes to your worldview. You will lose friends or family. Maybe even your job. It is going to take courage to "be transformed by the renewing of your mind" (Romans 12:2). You are going to have to challenge many of the beliefs you once held as "true."
There are many excellent books on Spiritual Growth or those, like St. John of the Cross, who were great spiritualists. One that I would recommend is The Critical Journey – by Hagberg and Guelich. In this book, they discuss what they call "The wall." "The Wall" is that which we all must face in our lives that we don't really want to face. You can't get around it – you must go through it – and that takes courage. "The Wall" stops many people from growing. They find the journey too difficult.
St. John of the Cross refers to the things which hinder us as "attachments."
"working out your Salvation" in this sense is having the courage to release those "attachments" and see the world closer to the way God sees the world.
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answered 2 days ago
S. Broberg
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Thank you for taking the time to reply. I appreciate your thoughts and enjoyed the idea of busting through the wall rather than going around. I know the walk of faith is not easy but love covers a multitude of sins and we are encouraged to come boldly before the throne of Grace because verse 13 gives us this confidence. Also, thanks for the book reference The Critical Journey, I may indeed give this a read. Blessings, Merks – Merks 2 days ago Delete
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He means to fear God, who will judge you, thereby avoiding the judgement of those who live wickedly: for with God there is no partiality—in fact, there is greater judgement for someone given the gift of salvation, but who "in time of trial, fall away" (Luke 8:13). 2 Peter 2:20.
Revelation 14:7 Saying with a loud voice: Fear the Lord, and give him honour, because the hour of his judgment is come; and adore ye him, that made heaven and earth, the sea, and the fountains of waters.
2 Corinthians 5:9-10 And therefore we labour, whether absent or present, to please him. For we must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive for the things done in the body, whether it be good or evil.
That is, fear is given as the protection against judgement, not as the means to obtain it, but to avoid not receiving salvation. After all, a disobeyer of God is incompatible with the image of Christ, incompatible with heaven.
2 Peter 3:10-16 But the day of the Lord shall come as a thief, in which the heavens shall pass away with great violence, and the elements shall be melted with heat, and the earth and the works which are in it, shall be burnt up.
Seeing then that all these things are to be dissolved, what manner of people ought you to be in holy conversation and godliness? 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of the Lord, by which the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with the burning heat? 13 But we look for new heavens and a new earth according to his promises, in which justice dwelleth. 14 Wherefore, dearly beloved, waiting for these things, be diligent that you may be found before him unspotted and blameless in peace. 15 And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation; as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you: 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.
Therefore there is no contradiction between describing the glory of salvation, and describing the need to avoid losing it by not watching for the Master's return, not using your "talents," basically not living as a Christian, but as if you weren't one, which is the constant warning of St. Paul, who even took care that he himself didn't lose his inheritance:
1 Corinthians 9:27 But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.
As for "fear" being at odds with love, in this context of John's Epistle, fear seems to refer to a lack of hope, and not to fear of the Lord, which every man should do. If you don't "fear him who can destroy" in hell, then you aren't obeying Jesus:
Matthew 10:28 And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Jesus warns believers to remove persistent sins/occasions of sin in their lives, which alludes to the same concept of "fear" St. Paul mentions:
Matthew 5:30 And if thy right hand scandalize thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than that thy whole body be cast into hell.
Translating "meta" as "against" is against the context:
So then, my beloved, even as you have always obeyed ... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling
The part "not only while I'm with you, but all the more when I'm gone," is subservient and supplementary data in this sentence; and "work out your salvation against fear and trembling" makes no sense: why would you admonish them to obey, and then say there is no fear in not doing so? 'You have always obeyed with fear and trembling' is the syntactically necessary understanding of the verse: St. Paul merely telling them to 'keep up the good work.'
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answered Feb 15 at 16:05
Sola Gratia
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Thanks for posting your reply. I simply do not think this is what the Apostle had in mind when he penned this verse. One's interpretation cannot be excluded from one's view of God and I find yours to be too weighted in fear. Not stating you are wrong but just not where I am at in my walk with Christ. – Merks 2 days ago Delete
One's interpretation should surely determine one's view of God. You don't bring pre-concieved doctrines to your interpretation, otherwise you are leading the Bible, not the other way around. I cite Jesus saying fear not men who can only kill the body, but fear God who can kill both body and soul in hell. Jesus said, "Fear God." He also taught, 'Get rid of things which cause you to sin - it's better for you, even if you lose out on these, than to go to hell having had them.' That's pretty explicit. That's good fear - fearing becoming a castaway, unfit for use by God - seed with no fruit. – Sola Gratia 2 days ago
I'm sorry if I offended you my friend. I do in fact fear God in a healthy way just as my dear children fear me with a healthy respect. But they are never in fear of retribution and my love for them reigns first in their understanding of my actions. Paul tells us that God has not given us the spirit of fear but of Love, peace and a sound mind. I accept His forgiveness and try to fulfill the law of love and seek to obey from the heart of the new creation he has and is making me to become. In His love and Grace ... Merks – Merks 2 days ago Delete
You didn't offend me at all, and I'm sorry it came across that way. I just find it an entirely contrived and unnecessary contradiction. One can fear not persevering to the end, as a means to avoid not doing so. And not a pointless fear because you are, and intend to remain, a sinner. These are two different fears, one belies faithlessness, and one belies a faith which intends to do God's will. – Sola Gratia 2 days ago
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The first thing to be said is what Philippians 2:12 does not say? It is not advocating to work out your salvation to get saved or to stay saved. The context is extremely important starting at verse 1 through verse 12.
I'm going to paraphrase what's going on here. At verse 2-3, the Apostle Paul is telling the Philippian "BELIEVERS" to have the same mind, maintaining the same love and be united in purpose. Do not be selfish or conceited and regard other people more important than yourself.
Verse 4, Do not look out for your own personal interest but put the interest in others first. At verse 5,6, 7, Have the same attitude which was also in Christ Jesus, who, (always existing in the form of God), emptied or veiled the prerogatives/glory He had before the world was. John 17:5.
Verse 8, And being found in appearance as a man He humbled Himself by being obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. At verse 12, the first two words are "So then," which means, since the above is true, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. In other words, "WORK OUT THE SOLUTION OF YOUR PROBLEMS" of not being selfish, conceited and not putting others first etc." Why? Verse 13, "for (or because) it is God who is at work in your both to will and to work for His good pleasure."
And to expand on this verse 14, "Do all things without grumbling or disputing; verse 15, that you may prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach etc. I think the "fear and trembling" warning means, "Don't give God a hard time."
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answered Feb 15 at 21:52
Mr. Bond
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Thanks for taking the time to reply. I do understand there is work involved in the believers walk. It's the with fear and trembling part The is getting me hung up. I know God is to be revered and I am truly in awe of Him but I don't feel He wants be to be afraid of potential retribution or punishment. Correction? Yes? Punishment? No. I tend to agree with the first poster the word amid or among is more in keeping with the character of this epistle. Blessings, Merks – Merks 2 days ago Delete
@Merks Maybe the following verse will ease your concerns. 1 John 4:18, "There is no fear in love; BUT PERFECT LOVE CAST OUT FEAR, because (or why?), fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love." Verse 19, "We love, because He first loved us." We as Christians need not fear God as those who don't personally know Him. Sure, as Christians we still sin but here at 1 John 2:1, "My little children, I am writing these things to you that you man not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"And you should be in "awe" of Him. – Mr. Bond 2 days ago
Thank you my brother and that is precisely why I posed my question. If I continued to operate under the kind of fear some would have me listen to I would most certainly become an insane son. I am persuaded His love form me never increases nor does it lesson based on my performance but is firmly rooted in the work of Christ on my behalf and on behalf of ALL MANKIND. Blessings to you and those you love for your encouragement in His Word. Merks – Merks 2 days ago
Personally I find the first post (I posted the first two replies earlier in this thread. They propose that Paul was basically comforting them as they were fearful at Paul's imprisonment. I like the use of "amid/among" in this context and certainly harmonizes with 1 John 4:18.
Lol ... as you were people, just thought you might like a break. I do enjoy rabbit trails and always glean something from your discussions.
Merks
Interesting.. though I did scan towards the end.. One thing I'm thinking is how the church(es) were part gentile and their religion(s) from what I've read could be rather wild affairs. Yes society these days seems just about as bad.. and maybe in some ways worse.. but not part of the people's religion.
All I'm thinking is as a leader Paul is acting often as a parent. Nowadays maybe there's not enough 'threats' (lol) and recriminations when wrongs are done.. And believe me I was not a strict parent. Though miraculously my kids turned out okay. Although neither one is a following Christ believer, though my daughter requests prayer for herself and for others every so often, and our son sort of believes. And me? I don't worry about it. Knowing Jesus draws all. Now this may be a flaw. A missing the mark even.. which I guess a flaw is. Because I am just as easy on myself! Yep. I like to be making progress. Not given to angers or stresses.. When there's nothing to be stressed about. I do great! Throw in some stress, I may not do as well. I think if we gossip or get in an argument, if we repent, truly feel bad and wish we'd done better, I think that's good, and apologizing to the Lord about it is healthy and good but if I go on my merry way feeling justified and I did good, well, that's when a little healthy 'fear' might be good, but even then, nothing terrible! As humans we can have the tendency to "expect the axe to fall"..
I think the whole thing from start to finish is psychological! As far as we are concerned.. some psychology we have in common and some all our own snd widely different. But HE is a great parent and healer / doctor.
Now if you are an Idi Amin, or Stalin.. or a predator! Should they fear? Not never ending torture. No. But hey if they do for a few minutes after being resurrected "from their graves" as the Lord said, you wouldn't find me feeling sorry for them.
Maybe I'm straying.. But I think about this a lot, how the culture these days denies there is evil. And crime should not be punished, let them roam the streets hurting folks and families and children.. And the world judges God. But to think there is no evil. How they manage to do that, idk. That's crazy. Both history and current things, should definitely prove their are still some very MEAN characters about. Now people may rail about men wanting to be women and women wanting to be men.. but I only feel sympathy and compassion for them.. But sex slave traders? Abortion doctors? Now I truly believe most 'punishment' is earthly consequences - for the most part.. like quoted above in Jeremiah. But the afterlife 'torment' when waking up as 'Father' Stalin or Idi Amin, before the pure radiance of God, I think the torment will be inner and self inflicted.. some weeping.. maybe for some, some gnashing of teeth, to have been so wrong in this time of "the nations/world raging" against God (Ps.2:1). All these things during their outer darkness outside the bright lit feast/friendship with God, until they bend the knee, which I think shall be alot like it is today.
Well, I know I'm straying. But it's the two things. If led by the Spirit, that is a totally different thing! John wrote if we have the accurate gospel we will have both the Father and the Son, and we have the fascinating Bible. So plenty to keep us busy and happy!
But it seems to me that not just in the world, and not just in the churches, but even in Christian Universalism, confusion is rampant. And I know one of the categories of late days is either clarity - foreheads sealed away from any lies or confusion what I think to myself ad "mystery babble". Now if we happen to be off in fantasy land, simply amusing ourself and having no idea of the days we are in, I'm not saying God will get us! Punish. I just don't think of it that way. But think of it as the consequences.. which can be bad enough. And I do believe literal hard times are coming for this world, and in the day if christians are eating snd drinking with the drunken - which to me sounds like code for confusion.
Do I sound harsh? I hope not. I really do believe God is love, and loves all - even Idi Amin and Stalin!
But I think imperfection - missing the mark/hamartia, translated sin, is a bottomless pit of potential.. and man it is deep and very dark.. I think tartarus is deepest darkness, the/a murderous spirit..
Back to Idi Amin, Stalin, Hitler.. the list is long.. and it's not just the big bad guys.. So in order to prove how terribly terribly awful imperfection can be - with some bound to oppress, etc.. I guess you have to let some of the worst things occur.
God of course is SO right about everything! I know He has done all things as He has and does, in order to bring about the very best of all end results.
I don't know why I babbled on so.. All I really wanted to say was amen! ..and how I believe in letting myself relax in His care. (Be yielded to Him.) If I am loving Him and reading and studying, I'm happy. I let myself be free. And I don't judge others either. I think how genuinely we care about others is the most important way to measure ourselves. Live being the fruit He is most after..? ..And I don't mean free as in license! Ick! That only leads to trouble/tribulation, ruin/apocalypse and death both spiritual and ultimately literal.. except HE is TOO perfect to lose even one.. And the Lord will "draw all".
:Peace2: :girlheart:
In Merks's post I like the first comment about Eastern view of salvation, dying to self, getting through a wall etc.
Marie, I agree about the psychological aspect and about God being our healer.
Oh and also, I once read that the word fear in this passage properly translated is more like "awe."
But honestly even if it means fear:
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.
Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. This makes sense because if we are working out our salvation we haven't yet been made perfect in love. It's a process and fear still exists until the end. I know I am constantly dealing with my own fears: facing them, succumbing to them, rising above them, giving them to God etc. it's a process.
Quote from: FatBird on February 13, 2020, 10:58:20 PM
Have you seen https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/ It is a really neat site for this type of question. You get answers pretty quickly.
What you said does make sense, the way you put it the verses are more harmonious with each other. But if the traditional translation is right, I think the reason for the harsh language is that it is typical of Judgement language. As unpleasant as fear is, it serves a purpose. We have all extorted, in one sense or another, our brothers and sisters and part of judgement is receiving the pain we gave out. Of course we are forgiven, but through the pain we get, we are healed by God (the one we also pierced). IMO
:cloud9: The Greek word for salvation can also be rendered "deliverance", which makes more sense in the context. We do work out our own deliverance with reverence type fear, because ONLY He can remove the bands that we are bound with.
Re the scripture about he who fears is not perfected in love: that refers back to man being in bondage to fear (the fear of dying to self) all of his days. No greater love has any man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. When you lay down your life (ALL OF IT) for Him, THAT is what perfected love IS, and that's why the bondage of fear of dying to self is removed.
My :2c: Blessings....