Tentmaker Forum

Ever heard someone say you need to except Christ as your "PERSONAL" Savior?  This is a very destructive phrase.  The reason is that He is NOT personal - He is the UNIVERSAL Savior.  But I suppose that having us brainwashed into believing that Jesus Christ is our "Personal Savior" makes it easier to condemn those that don't have "A" savior.  This pits those that have a savior against those that don't have a savior.  So I'm asking that we remove this phrase from our vocabulary such that we don't use it to describe and belittle the office of our Lord. 

I accept Jesus Christ as EVERYONEs savior.  So next time you talk to someone ask them if they accept Jesus Christ as "EVERYONEs SAVIOR".

Paul

willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

Quote from: trettep on July 18, 2009, 10:55:41 PM
Ever heard someone say you need to except Christ as your "PERSONAL" Savior?  This is a very destructive phrase.  The reason is that He is NOT personal - He is the UNIVERSAL Savior.  But I suppose that having us brainwashed into believing that Jesus Christ is our "Personal Savior" makes it easier to condemn those that don't have "A" savior.  This pits those that have a savior against those that don't have a savior.  So I'm asking that we remove this phrase from our vocabulary such that we don't use it to describe and belittle the office of our Lord. 

I accept Jesus Christ as EVERYONEs savior.  So next time you talk to someone ask them if they accept Jesus Christ as "EVERYONEs SAVIOR".

Paul

"Brainwashed" is a good single word describing the state of doctrinal teachings of the various "Christian" churches...  :sigh:

You know Paul... since I came to understand the Salvation of ALL MEN... I have also come to discover that, outside of JESUS CHRIST as Savior... I pretty much DISAGREE with EVERYTHING doctrinally taught in the "Christian" churches...

I mean, they teach many doctrines which are NOT named in Scripture, such as"

"the trinity" -- the "millennium" -- "going to heaven" -- "free will" -- "sinners prayer" -- "personal Savior" -- "accepting CHRIST" -- "hell" -- "eternal separation from God" -- "souls LED to CHRIST" -- "decision for "CHRIST" --  "spiritual Israel" -- the "rapture" -- "fallen angels" -- "satan as a sentient being" --  

The list grows the more I study the WORD...  :dontknow:

:Peace:

Quote from: willieH on July 18, 2009, 11:11:57 PM
willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

Quote from: trettep on July 18, 2009, 10:55:41 PM
Ever heard someone say you need to except Christ as your "PERSONAL" Savior?  This is a very destructive phrase.  The reason is that He is NOT personal - He is the UNIVERSAL Savior.  But I suppose that having us brainwashed into believing that Jesus Christ is our "Personal Savior" makes it easier to condemn those that don't have "A" savior.  This pits those that have a savior against those that don't have a savior.  So I'm asking that we remove this phrase from our vocabulary such that we don't use it to describe and belittle the office of our Lord. 

I accept Jesus Christ as EVERYONEs savior.  So next time you talk to someone ask them if they accept Jesus Christ as "EVERYONEs SAVIOR".

Paul

"Brainwashed" is a good single word describing the state of doctrinal teachings of the various "Christian" churches...  :sigh:

You know Paul... since I came to understand the Salvation of ALL MEN... I have also come to discover that, outside of JESUS CHRIST as Savior... I pretty much DISAGREE with EVERYTHING doctrinally taught in the "Christian" churches...

I mean, they teach many doctrines which are NOT named in Scripture, such as"

"the trinity" -- the "millennium" -- "going to heaven" -- "free will" -- "sinners prayer" -- "personal Savior" -- "accepting CHRIST" -- "hell" -- "eternal separation from God" -- "souls LED to CHRIST" -- "decision for "CHRIST" --  "spiritual Israel" -- the "rapture" -- "fallen angels" -- "satan as a sentient being" --  

The list grows the more I study the WORD...  :dontknow:

:Peace:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

I hear you Willie.  I just hope more people do and put away those things also. 

Paul

 :cloud9: I hear you too, Willie......blessings...... :girlheart:

There is a remnant...and to think we'd meet — online!
Praise God.

QuoteEver heard someone say you need to except Christ as your "PERSONAL" Savior?  This is a very destructive phrase

I have to disagree here--this is how I first came to know him, and yes, it was very personal--and it still is.

 :cloud9: It's how I met Him too........but He later showed me that He merely honored the faith where I was at, at the time. He was there all along; I just had to acknowledge Him as Lord, ie. the darkness comprehended it not.

My whole 'world' and avenue of ministry changed with stopping telling telling people to 'invite Him in', and rather telling them He was already in residence, was the breath that they took, and how much He loved them, unconditionally.

I saw much more fruit from that approach, and anointing on it. But, we have to be led of the Spirit, and let people have the same grace that was extended to us, when He honored the measure of faith we had. Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on July 19, 2009, 05:24:08 AM
:cloud9: It's how I met Him too........but He later showed me that He merely honored the faith where I was at, at the time. He was there all along; I just had to acknowledge Him as Lord, ie. the darkness comprehended it not.

My whole 'world' and avenue of ministry changed with stopping telling telling people to 'invite Him in', and rather telling them He was already in residence, was the breath that they took, and how much He loved them, unconditionally.

I saw much more fruit from that approach, and anointing on it. But, we have to be led of the Spirit, and let people have the same grace that was extended to us, when He honored the measure of faith we had. Blessings....

That's great, Cardinal.
That truly blessed me, sis...
love ya,
sparrow

It's interesting, I don't even think that way about him now--that is, in residence inside me.   I see him very clearly as a person with whom  I have a relationship.

To invite him in means just to turn to him, talk to him, commune with him, break bread with him.

To the extent that I have changed, one could describe this as becoming more like him--so,in residence in that sense, maybe.

I heard a rabbi talk about an I-thou relationship once, and that is pretty much how I see it.

Yes, I agree he was there all along.  I just couldn't see him.

The word 'accompany' is used in the greek to describe our relationship with him--there are two of us in this--I don't lose myself in him, I find myself, become more of myself.

Anyway, it's personal, and there is only one whom I can trust and rely on.  But, that's my experience of it.

I think he presents to each of us exactly what we need to grow into what we are to become.

I studied other religions for a while, but never found a God in any of them as personal as Jesus.

I also find myself in Him,
but become LESS of myself.

I guess it depends what your 'self' is.

So Paul became less of the person who killed Christians, and more like Christ.

But, I don't think you could find a stronger personality anywhere than Paul.

And, I think you could argue he became every bit the man he was meant to be.

Yeah...
I think that we are becoming the people we were always meant to be.
I think sometimes when hearing people talk about you decrease and Christ increases...
That makes sense, but it also can be confusing because people can take it to mean...  :mshock: huh?
I'm disappearing? I'm not going to be me anymore? Then what is the point in having all of these people if we are all just turning into Jesus. Why not just have Jesus and not have any of these other billions of people?

But it's that leaning into Jesus and following HIM, His example, His LOVE, we are becoming what God has always meant for us to be. We are being transformed, not INTO Him, but BECAUSE of Him.

did that make sense?

It's becoming less self-conscious —
and more Christ-conscious —
As I decrease so shall He increase.

Quotedid that make sense?

Yes.

But, mind you, when Paul talks about us looking into a darkened mirror, I take that literally.  We look in the mirror and can't see the accurate reflection because of a problem with the mirror.

And, then Paul tells us that someday [we will look into a clear mirror] and see him face to face.

Well guess who you see when you look in a mirror? lol

That's right, yourself.

1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we are looking in a mirror that gives only a dim (blurred) reflection [of reality as in a riddle or enigma], but then [when perfection comes] we shall see in reality and face to face!

It's His life in us.
It is into Him, but — it is Sparrow into Him.
— David into Him,
— Card into Him,
— Claypot into Him.
We don't lose our identity, we find it.
In Him!

Call on the name of the Lord and YOU SHALL BE saved.

Believe, confess, repent...Romans 10:14,15 states.. "How then shall they call on Him in Whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in Him of Whom they have not heard?"

Nah, I believe there are too many scriptures to not believe God's Spirit individually visits each and every person when it's their time to be given faith to believe.  It's called getting saved, and we all must be.  Some now, the rest later.  Only by His grace, nothing we do to earn it.  It's only as suits His purposes and plans as far as timing.

"What must I do to be saved?  Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved" (I Peter 5:7).  The universal part is all will come face to face with Yesu, one time or another; and one way or another, will all bow and confess Him as Lord.  "All" doesn't preclude "each".

I don't think the words "personal saviour" is the problem.   It is the presentation of  "YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT"  and all the assertions that people will make if you do not accept him when they come at you.

I like your point Paul.  I too believe it's many things AROUND believing/getting saved that we've goofed up, including all the eternal hell stuff, or that God's not in control or the One that does the calling and choosing, etc.  ...when He says the time is right.   :thumbsup:

Quote from: jabcat on July 19, 2009, 07:08:50 AM
I like your point Paul.  I too believe it's many things AROUND believing/getting saved that we've goofed up, including all the eternal hell stuff, or that God's not in control, the One that does the calling and choosing, etc.  ...when He says the time is right.   :thumbsup:

He is everyones saviour, but there are things unique to my walk that I have a hard time with him not being my personal saviour as well.   

He is an atheists personal saviour they just won't believe it yet.

Dang it, your all saved whether you like it or not.    :laughing7:


It's when we place the means of coming to believe that in the center of man's will that is the problem.

True belief is not convincing yourself, it is the result of an event.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 19, 2009, 07:12:55 AM

Quote from: jabcat on July 19, 2009, 07:08:50 AM
I like your point Paul.  I too believe it's many things AROUND believing/getting saved that we've goofed up, including all the eternal hell stuff, or that God's not in control, the One that does the calling and choosing, etc.  ...when He says the time is right.   :thumbsup:

It's when we place the means of coming to believe that in the center of man's will that is the problem.

True belief is not convincing yourself, it is the result of an event.

Amen.  I too believe that.  He chooses, gives the faith to believe.  The following I find to be a quite interesting scripture (and could be confusing if not reconciled with the other verses that show He does the choosing and providing faith)...But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name.

So even though there are other scriptures to examine that IMO show it's His action and empowerment of any of our actions, I think the verse still shows a unique time of "getting saved".  I just see it as the "order" Apostle Paul talked about, some believe now, the rest later...but still only by His grace and empowerment. 

Looking to Him, the Author and Finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2)

 

Quote...even to them that believe on his name.

What do you think that means?  And what or who is his 'name'?

It may have multiple layers, but in this specific context, I understand it to mean recognizing Him as Savior, being brought by the Holy Spirit to (what's called in "old fashioned" vernacular) knowing Him in a personal, saving way.  Calling on Him, trusting in Him.  Not just a picture on a wall, a story in a book, a good prophet, etc.  Many have a head knowledge but have not as yet had their day of visitation.

I'm a little nervous, did I pass?   :laughing7:  I removed an ealier post in which I felt I may have gotten a little too worked up.  In it I agreed with your post of being personally saved.  What do you think it means?

I believe (no scholar, just the best I know right now) that the closest we have to His actual "given" name is Yesu.  I don't get dogmatic about that though, we have what light has been given us.

I think the main thing is believing and trusting in God's only begotten Son...Jesus, Yesu, Yashua...I really don't think God holds against us that He scattered us and gave us diversity of languages...just because ours may not be the best  :mblush:.

QuoteWhat do you think it means?

I'm not sure.  That's why I asked. :girlheart:

It's an interesting way the scripture puts it--receive him or even believe on his name--


30For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,

--Luke 2

I agree, as I also said, I think that is an interesting verse...and you've pointed out another reason why.  So much to know, the glass is so dark, the veil lifted a little at a time.   :afFro:

Funny thing is, I believe if someone who can't read a lick, can't even talk, but if God visits them and gives them faith to believe to what little extent of information/knowledge they may be given...even if they can't pronounce the name of Jesus...if God gives them just the simple faith of a little child, then that's good enough for me :Yesss:.  It's all very interesting, and sometimes I just like to settle back into Daddy's arms and just let Him love me and know He'll take care of everything.

Used to sing/play in a band called "Simple Faith"...our logo was a picture of an oak tree above ground, with a sprouting seed [allusion to a mustard seed] below the soil.  I've never forgotten it....

You've got me curious now...(I'm obsessive...thanks a lot, Molly  :laughing7:).  I may look at it some more, and if you do, please let me know what you find.  But I'm wondering if "believing on His name" in essence means "Him...His essence...everything we've been given to know that He is...but especially Savior/Messiah".  What do you think?

I've looked back on my moment of receiving grace, the faith to believe.  I didn't understand many of the things I now know (though very little) of who He is, many of the issues regarding His life, death, fulfillment of the Law, etc.  I've even questioned my faith at times because of that.  But then to remember coming to Him as a little child...that's simple faith, just living in the simplicity of loving and believing that He IS.

Quote from: jabcat on July 19, 2009, 07:50:30 AM
You've got me curious now...(I'm obsessive...thanks a lot, Molly  :laughing7:).  I may look at it some more, and if you do, please let me know what you find.  But I'm wondering if "believing on His name" in essence means "Him...His essence...everything we've been given to know that He is...but especially Savior/Messiah".  What do you think?

Yes, it can mean his character and authority which is contained in the name.


His name has a meaning.  But it is a very generic meaning

Simeon calls him 'thy salvation.' [Lk 2:30]

This is cross referenced to various old testament verses.


Psalm 119
166 LORD, I hope for Your salvation
    and carry out Your commands.

"thy salvation"

y'shû‛âh



Psalm 119
174 I long for Your salvation, LORD,
    and Your instruction is my delight.

"thy salvation"

y'shû‛âh



But this is my favorite

Isaiah 52

10 The LORD has displayed His holy arm
    in the sight of all the nations;
    all the ends of the earth will see
    the salvation of our God. 

   

"the salvation"

y'shû‛âh


"of our God"

'ĕlôhîym



    y'shû‛âh 'ĕlôhîym--That name is plural.

Mostly, to speak of Jesus as a "personal savior" has to do with the fact He relates to us as persons; that is, person to person.  This is meant as a comprehensive category of selfhood.  We have used it because we want people to meet Him, the essence of the person Jesus manifesting to us.  When I began My walk with the Lord I went to a different church gathering every night, even though I had to hitchhike to do so.  I saw that their doctrines differed in various way and I already knew that some if it was wrong for sure.  What was amazing was that I saw Jesus in these people, regardless of their beliefs.  That is because He relates to us on a personal level.

The phrase, "personal savior" came into use with the circuit riding, frontier revivalists and wandering evangelists on horseback toward the middle of the 1800's.  http://www.cantonbaptist.org/halloffame/fuller.htm (http://www.cantonbaptist.org/halloffame/fuller.htm)
(Though this url isn't working for me, I offer it in hopes someone my be able to get to the article it is meant to access.)
What made the phrase popular was was the constant use of it by Charles Fuller (1887-1968) on his radio program.  "Old Fashioned Gospel Hour" from the USA went into all the world on over 500 radio stations from the 40's through the 60's.

Our salvation is not limited to what we consider our personal lives.  It includes every aspect of existence.  But, what seems to me to be the biggest problem is the real God is manifesting through a many membered man.  That is, He is in others, not just our own individualistic, selfish "person."  However we may undergo times of either discipline that seperates us to God Who is JEALOUS, or troubles when there is none around us to understand and help carry our burden, what the old gospel song says is not quite the truth, "There's room for just two...Just Jesus and me, on the Calvary Road."  Once you clue in on this it is very amazing how popular media preachers virually never have reference to the bride.  The body of Christ with every member functioning under the headship of Christ as a specific form of meeting is virtually unknow in mainstream evangelicalism's "liturgy."  The Church is not on the program.  Never.  It is simple:  if I don't know Jesus in others I probably don't know Jesus at all.

Quote from: jabcat on July 19, 2009, 07:01:27 AM
Call on the name of the Lord and YOU SHALL BE saved.

Believe, confess, repent...Romans 10:14,15 states.. "How then shall they call on Him in Whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in Him of Whom they have not heard?"

Nah, I believe there are too many scriptures to not believe God's Spirit individually visits each and every person when it's their time to be given faith to believe.  It's called getting saved, and we all must be.  Some now, the rest later.  Only by His grace, nothing we do to earn it.  It's only as suits His purposes and plans as far as timing.

"What must I do to be saved?  Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved" (I Peter 5:7).  The universal part is all will come face to face with Yesu, one time or another; and one way or another, will all bow and confess Him as Lord.  "All" doesn't preclude "each".

:cloud9: That's the way I believed too, Jab. But it's interesting to note that the word translated saved, is the same as translated deliverance elsewhere. When we acknowledge Him as Lord, we are 'saved' in the sense of being delivered of the darkness that comprehended not the light within. That moment of 'realization' is what we formerly call, 'being saved'.

But it's also an active verb, not a passive noun, ie. we have been delivered, we are delivered, we are being delivered. Turning to Him within, and 'asking Him in', are two different things.

In tabernacle terms, the way He showed this to me one day was, He spoke to me, "There were two trees in the MIDST of the garden." Then He showed me what they were, ie. the candlestick and the table of shewbread in that pattern.

Then it dawned on me via revelation, that if the inner court of the priesthood was the MIDST of the garden, then that meant that the outer court where ALL else 'resided', was His garden too.

He is the good seed planted in the field which Matt. 13 tells you is, the WORLD. The reason is it important to have this revelation is because until we see that He is in all people, only as a Seed that has not begun to 'sprout' yet, we cannot begin to partake of the feast of TABERNACLES, because we have not discerned the Lord's body. Blessings...

Quote from: jabcat on July 19, 2009, 07:25:31 AM

Amen.  I too believe that.  He chooses, gives the faith to believe.  The following I find to be a quite interesting scripture (and could be confusing if not reconciled with the other verses that show He does the choosing and providing faith)...But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name.

What I find interesting is how God allows the phrasing of His Word to us. He absolutely knew it would cause untold confusion. Why would He do that? Even among those led by the Spirit are so confused because of how Scripture is written. Why did not God make it clear? There is something in my question that intrigues me about God.

cp

QuoteWhy did not God make it clear?

Because it is the honour of kings to search out the glory of God.


2It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

--Prov 25:2

The SELF is destroyed when we are converted to Christ.  So He is not a "personal savior".  We CEASE to exist as who we were before.  If we do not cease to exist as who we were before then we are not converted.  Hence that what "conversion" is.  It is to convert to something new.  We are told repeatedly in scripture to conform to Christ.  Our mission is to BECOME Christ-like.  After all to be in "the name of Jesus Christ" is to be AS Jesus Christ.  This concept of accept Christ as my personal savior seems to imply that my person will remain when that is the farthest thing from the Truth.  For my person shall be destroyed when I put on Christ.  I will cease to be me and become Him.  All of the Apostles became Christ.  They were ceasing to be themselves. 

Rom 6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Our old man is crucified with Him - that is US - that is who WE are.  Not Him.  That is OUR PERSON.

So as you can see.  I have a big problem with saying our "personal savior".  Because it doesn't make sense in light of scripture.  It implies that perspective that God is simply allowing your person to exist and that your person ACCEPTs Christ.  That is not how it works.  Conversion is a DRAGGING process.  The carnal mind hates God.   It isn't going to ACCEPT Christ.  It is IMPOSSIBLE for the carnal mind to accept Christ.

It might sound "nice" but it is very destructive statement.

Paul

Quote from: Molly on July 19, 2009, 04:53:45 PM

QuoteWhy did not God make it clear?

Because it is the honour of kings to search out the glory of God.


2It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

--Prov 25:2

Now I know why the game of hide and seek is so popular!!!

cp

Quote from: trettep on July 19, 2009, 05:09:23 PM
  Conversion is a DRAGGING process.  The carnal mind hates God.   It isn't going to ACCEPT Christ.  It is IMPOSSIBLE for the carnal mind to accept Christ.

He drags you personally, He doesn't drag me to drag you.  He drags us both in unique ways.

Certain doctrines are destructive even if you never use the phrase.

Prosperity doctrines are one example.   If you rub the bottle correctly, the genie comes out and grants your wishes and if you do not get your wishes granted, sorry for you, you didn't run the bottle good enough.

Quote from: trettep on July 19, 2009, 05:09:23 PM
The SELF is destroyed when we are converted to Christ.  So He is not a "personal savior".  We CEASE to exist as who we were before.  If we do not cease to exist as who we were before then we are not converted.  Hence that what "conversion" is.  It is to convert to something new.  We are told repeatedly in scripture to conform to Christ.  Our mission is to BECOME Christ-like.  After all to be in "the name of Jesus Christ" is to be AS Jesus Christ.  This concept of accept Christ as my personal savior seems to imply that my person will remain when that is the farthest thing from the Truth.  For my person shall be destroyed when I put on Christ.  I will cease to be me and become Him.  All of the Apostles became Christ.  They were ceasing to be themselves. 

Rom 6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Our old man is crucified with Him - that is US - that is who WE are.  Not Him.  That is OUR PERSON.

So as you can see.  I have a big problem with saying our "personal savior".  Because it doesn't make sense in light of scripture.  It implies that perspective that God is simply allowing your person to exist and that your person ACCEPTs Christ.  That is not how it works.  Conversion is a DRAGGING process.  The carnal mind hates God.   It isn't going to ACCEPT Christ.  It is IMPOSSIBLE for the carnal mind to accept Christ.

It might sound "nice" but it is very destructive statement.

Paul

:cloud9: This is very true. I'll use this personal example from 3 years ago. I was listening to Christian radio station and singing along to a song with the lyrics, "I want you to live though me, Lord."

The Lord broke in and said, "That's a lie. I want you to die, so I can live." Simple, but effective object lesson, roflol. Blessings.....

QuoteThe carnal mind hates God.   It isn't going to ACCEPT Christ.  It is IMPOSSIBLE for the carnal mind to accept Christ.

And what makes you think that 'I' am my carnal mind any more than 'I' am my foot or my hand?

If I lose my foot, do I lose me?

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 19, 2009, 07:02:51 PM

Quote from: trettep on July 19, 2009, 05:09:23 PM
  Conversion is a DRAGGING process.  The carnal mind hates God.   It isn't going to ACCEPT Christ.  It is IMPOSSIBLE for the carnal mind to accept Christ.

He drags you personally, He doesn't drag me to drag you.  He drags us both in unique ways.

Certain doctrines are destructive even if you never use the phrase.

Prosperity doctrines are one example.   If you rub the bottle correctly, the genie comes out and grants your wishes and if you do not get your wishes granted, sorry for you, you didn't run the bottle good enough.

Actually He does use others to drag others.  But it is really Him, so both are right.  For example, Jesus told his disciples to follow Him and He would make them fishers of men.  Those fishermen that were called used nets which they dragged to themselves. In like manner, Jesus would use those Spiritual Fishermen to drag others to Himself.  But since they work they do is Christ Jesus in them then "yes", it would be Jesus dragging them.

Paul

Quote from: Cardinal on July 19, 2009, 07:09:12 PM

Quote from: trettep on July 19, 2009, 05:09:23 PM
The SELF is destroyed when we are converted to Christ.  So He is not a "personal savior".  We CEASE to exist as who we were before.  If we do not cease to exist as who we were before then we are not converted.  Hence that what "conversion" is.  It is to convert to something new.  We are told repeatedly in scripture to conform to Christ.  Our mission is to BECOME Christ-like.  After all to be in "the name of Jesus Christ" is to be AS Jesus Christ.  This concept of accept Christ as my personal savior seems to imply that my person will remain when that is the farthest thing from the Truth.  For my person shall be destroyed when I put on Christ.  I will cease to be me and become Him.  All of the Apostles became Christ.  They were ceasing to be themselves. 

Rom 6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Our old man is crucified with Him - that is US - that is who WE are.  Not Him.  That is OUR PERSON.

So as you can see.  I have a big problem with saying our "personal savior".  Because it doesn't make sense in light of scripture.  It implies that perspective that God is simply allowing your person to exist and that your person ACCEPTs Christ.  That is not how it works.  Conversion is a DRAGGING process.  The carnal mind hates God.   It isn't going to ACCEPT Christ.  It is IMPOSSIBLE for the carnal mind to accept Christ.

It might sound "nice" but it is very destructive statement.

Paul

:cloud9: This is very true. I'll use this personal example from 3 years ago. I was listening to Christian radio station and singing along to a song with the lyrics, "I want you to live though me, Lord."

The Lord broke in and said, "That's a lie. I want you to do, so I can live." Simple, but effective object lesson, roflol. Blessings.....

It is the "me" part that goes away.  I tell people, that who I am without Christ is a child molester, a murderer, a thief, a tyrant, a dictator, etc...  Because that is the nature that is who I was.  I was only kept in check by fear.  Fear opportunity was my guide to keep me in check.  Many will not acknowledge that.  I tell people that I MURDERED Christ.  Yes, I killed my passover lamb.  Others will gasp and say they didn't as if they are disgusted to believe they could be so vile.   Yet Jesus says their carnal mind HATES God.   Until we can realize how VILE we actually are and that ourselves (our spirit - the spirit of me) must die then we doesn't possess the understanding that converts the heart.

Paul

Quote from: Molly on July 19, 2009, 07:20:25 PM

QuoteThe carnal mind hates God.   It isn't going to ACCEPT Christ.  It is IMPOSSIBLE for the carnal mind to accept Christ.

And what makes you think that 'I' am my carnal mind any more than 'I' am my foot or my hand?

If I lose my foot, do I lose me?

Rom 8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Are you saying you never had a carnal mind? For if you did have that mind then it had to be destroyed didn't it?

If your a descendant of Adam then you have a carnal mind that needs to be destroyed.

Paul says:

Rom 7:14  For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Paul

willieH: Hi Sister Sparrow... :hithere:

Quote from: sparrow on July 19, 2009, 06:16:10 AMI'm disappearing? I'm not going to be me anymore?

Of course not... you are realizing WHO and WHAT you ARE, ...IN HIM.

If HE is increasing and you are decreasing, what is in fact occuring is the manifestation and REALIZATION of the fact that all "we are" is HIS BODY and TEMPLE!  And the manifestation of "increasing/decreasing" is the revelation of that fact, sis...

IOW -- "we" are really not ..."we", never really were... "we" are just parts and portions of HIM... What an HONOR!  :bgdance:

Quote from: sparrow on July 19, 2009, 06:16:10 AMThen what is the point in having all of these people if we are all just turning into Jesus. Why not just have Jesus and not have any of these other billions of people?

The "point" is that the EYE (one person) is not the EAR (another person)... all these "people" that we observe "we are", ...ARE portions of HIM and therefore, portions of HIS BODY and TEMPLE... Not individuals, but PART of HIM and Who and What HE ...IS...  :thumbsup:

Quote from: sparrow on July 19, 2009, 06:16:10 AMBut it's that leaning into Jesus and following HIM, His example, His LOVE, we are becoming what God has always meant for us to be. We are being transformed, not INTO Him, but BECAUSE of Him.

I agree it is BECAUSE of Him, ....but I think that we are not transforming "INto" Him... we are transforming BACK to Him... which is WHO and WHAT we have ALWAYS BEEN... The LOST Son, was WITH the FATHER (who IS the Savior -- Isaiah 43:11)... LEFT (became LOST) then CAME BACK...  GOD is EVERYWHERE, including "where" we are when we are LOST... and He does not abandon us when we are in this condition... on the contrary, it is HIS PRESENCE and LOVE, which delivers us from that LOST condition, for HIS LOVE is WITH us when we are in this condition, and brings us OUT of it... at HIS descretion and in HIS time...

CHRIST, nor YHVH ...ever CHANGE! -- Mal 3:6 -- Heb 13:8 -- James 1:17 -- They ALWAYS ARE, what they ARE...  And "we" are named as their TEMPLE and BODY within the WORD which cannot LIE -- 1 Cor 6:17

The "REVELATION" of JESUS CHRIST is just that... CHRIST -- REVEALED in ALL...

The WORD "reveals" JESUS, who never changes...  If He never "changes" then He IS, always "HOW" He IS... and "WHERE" He IS...

JESUS said: Heb 13:5 "I will NEVER leave thee nor forsake thee"... this cannot be a true statement if in fact He is NOT a part of YOU at ALL TIMES... for the word NEVER means "NOT AT ...ANY... TIME"...

This Scripture doesn't say:  "Once I enter your life I will never leave you or forsake you"... It SAYS:  "I will NEVER LEAVE you nor forsake you" -- period.

Also... the Scripture notes: Matt 28:19 -- "Lo I am WITH YOU ...ALWAYS... even unto the end of the world [age]" (not "from now on -- unto the end")

If JESUS is "with us "ALWAYS"... then He has ALWAYS been WITH US...

Which verifies that, ...He and the Father, NEVER changes...  :yes:

:Peace: sister S...  :cloud9:

Quote from: willieH on July 19, 2009, 09:52:43 PM
willieH: Hi Sister Sparrow... :hithere:

Quote from: sparrow on July 19, 2009, 06:16:10 AMI'm disappearing? I'm not going to be me anymore?

Of course not... you are realizing WHO and WHAT you ARE, ...IN HIM.

If HE is increasing and you are decreasing, what is in fact occuring is the manifestation and REALIZATION of the fact that all "we are" is HIS BODY and TEMPLE!  And the manifestation of "increasing/decreasing" is the revelation of that fact, sis...

IOW -- "we" are really not ..."we", never really were... "we" are just parts and portions of HIM... What an HONOR!  :bgdance:

Quote from: sparrow on July 19, 2009, 06:16:10 AMThen what is the point in having all of these people if we are all just turning into Jesus. Why not just have Jesus and not have any of these other billions of people?

The "point" is that the EYE (one person) is not the EAR (another person)... all these "people" that we observe "we are", ...ARE portions of HIM and therefore, portions of HIS BODY and TEMPLE... Not individuals, but PART of HIM and Who and What HE ...IS...  :thumbsup:

Quote from: sparrow on July 19, 2009, 06:16:10 AMBut it's that leaning into Jesus and following HIM, His example, His LOVE, we are becoming what God has always meant for us to be. We are being transformed, not INTO Him, but BECAUSE of Him.

I agree it is BECAUSE of Him, ....but I think that we are not transforming "INto" Him... we are transforming BACK to Him... which is WHO and WHAT we have ALWAYS BEEN... The LOST Son, was WITH the FATHER (who IS the Savior -- Isaiah 43:11)... LEFT (became LOST) then CAME BACK...  GOD is EVERYWHERE, including "where" we are when we are LOST... and He does not abandon us when we are in this condition... on the contrary, it is HIS PRESENCE and LOVE, which delivers us from that LOST condition, for HIS LOVE is WITH us when we are in this condition, and brings us OUT of it... at HIS descretion and in HIS time...

CHRIST, nor YHVH ...ever CHANGE! -- Mal 3:6 -- Heb 13:8 -- James 1:17 -- They ALWAYS ARE, what they ARE...  And "we" are named as their TEMPLE and BODY within the WORD which cannot LIE -- 1 Cor 6:17

The "REVELATION" of JESUS CHRIST is just that... CHRIST -- REVEALED in ALL...

The WORD "reveals" JESUS, who never changes...  If He never "changes" then He IS, always "HOW" He IS... and "WHERE" He IS...

JESUS said: Heb 13:5 "I will NEVER leave thee nor forsake thee"... this cannot be a true statement if in fact He is NOT a part of YOU at ALL TIMES... for the word NEVER means "NOT AT ...ANY... TIME"...

This Scripture doesn't say:  "Once I enter your life I will never leave you or forsake you"... It SAYS:  "I will NEVER LEAVE you nor forsake you" -- period.

Also... the Scripture notes: Matt 28:19 -- "Lo I am WITH YOU ...ALWAYS... even unto the end of the world [age]" (not "from now on -- unto the end")

If JESUS is "with us "ALWAYS"... then He has ALWAYS been WITH US...

Which verifies that, ...He and the Father, NEVER changes...  :yes:

:Peace: sister S...  :cloud9:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

I disagree with this Willie.  How can we always be Him when we are carnal?  That would mean that the reflexive also true in that if we are Him then He is us.  Can the child of Satan be also the child of God at the same time?  If so, why be RENEWED by the Holy Spirit?

Paul

Quote from: willieH on July 19, 2009, 09:52:43 PM
willieH: Hi Sister Sparrow... :hithere:

Quote from: sparrow on July 19, 2009, 06:16:10 AMI'm disappearing? I'm not going to be me anymore?

Of course not... you are realizing WHO and WHAT you ARE, ...IN HIM.

If HE is increasing and you are decreasing, what is in fact occuring is the manifestation and REALIZATION of the fact that all "we are" is HIS BODY and TEMPLE!  And the manifestation of "increasing/decreasing" is the revelation of that fact, sis...

IOW -- "we" are really not ..."we", never really were... "we" are just parts and portions of HIM... What an HONOR!  :bgdance:

Quote from: sparrow on July 19, 2009, 06:16:10 AMThen what is the point in having all of these people if we are all just turning into Jesus. Why not just have Jesus and not have any of these other billions of people?

The "point" is that the EYE (one person) is not the EAR (another person)... all these "people" that we observe "we are", ...ARE portions of HIM and therefore, portions of HIS BODY and TEMPLE... Not individuals, but PART of HIM and Who and What HE ...IS...  :thumbsup:

Quote from: sparrow on July 19, 2009, 06:16:10 AMBut it's that leaning into Jesus and following HIM, His example, His LOVE, we are becoming what God has always meant for us to be. We are being transformed, not INTO Him, but BECAUSE of Him.

I agree it is BECAUSE of Him, ....but I think that we are not transforming "INto" Him... we are transforming BACK to Him... which is WHO and WHAT we have ALWAYS BEEN... The LOST Son, was WITH the FATHER (who IS the Savior -- Isaiah 43:11)... LEFT (became LOST) then CAME BACK...  GOD is EVERYWHERE, including "where" we are when we are LOST... and He does not abandon us when we are in this condition... on the contrary, it is HIS PRESENCE and LOVE, which delivers us from that LOST condition, for HIS LOVE is WITH us when we are in this condition, and brings us OUT of it... at HIS descretion and in HIS time...

CHRIST, nor YHVH ...ever CHANGE! -- Mal 3:6 -- Heb 13:8 -- James 1:17 -- They ALWAYS ARE, what they ARE...  And "we" are named as their TEMPLE and BODY within the WORD which cannot LIE -- 1 Cor 6:17

The "REVELATION" of JESUS CHRIST is just that... CHRIST -- REVEALED in ALL...

The WORD "reveals" JESUS, who never changes...  If He never "changes" then He IS, always "HOW" He IS... and "WHERE" He IS...

JESUS said: Heb 13:5 "I will NEVER leave thee nor forsake thee"... this cannot be a true statement if in fact He is NOT a part of YOU at ALL TIMES... for the word NEVER means "NOT AT ...ANY... TIME"...

This Scripture doesn't say:  "Once I enter your life I will never leave you or forsake you"... It SAYS:  "I will NEVER LEAVE you nor forsake you" -- period.

Also... the Scripture notes: Matt 28:19 -- "Lo I am WITH YOU ...ALWAYS... even unto the end of the world [age]" (not "from now on -- unto the end")

If JESUS is "with us "ALWAYS"... then He has ALWAYS been WITH US...

Which verifies that, ...He and the Father, NEVER changes...  :yes:

:Peace: sister S...  :cloud9:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Just because I like to tear things apart and be sure of what people are saying...
Now sorry if it sounds like I'm in kindergarten here for a minute, but just bear with a sister.. :laughing7:

Are you saying that we are all going to be morphed into one being?
We will not be separate beings?

Example... let's say a glass jar is shattered into a billion pieces. Then those billion pieces are melted down and formed back into being a glass jar?

Are we just going to be one big blob?

See... I don't really think that you are saying that.
But it could be construed that way.
But maybe you ARE saying that.?

???

Literally, what do you mean "all we are is his body and temple"?
Are you saying that we are Jesus?
But He was shattered into billions of pieces (people) and then they (we, the pieces) are going to morph back into Him literally and become one? So there will be no actual PEOPLE walking around?
Just Him?


I have my own views and thoughts but I am just trying to dissect what you (and others) are saying.

Keep in mind, I do not come from a church background, so some phrases/terminology is lost on me at times. It makes sense from a spiritual point of view, but then I start thinking... maybe they are talking LITERALLY. Then to me, some of the glory is lost, in my eyes. Then I start to not understand what the heck a person is saying at all. Do you know what I mean?

I think the reason I question people so much about this topic when it is brought up is because I need to know EXACTLY what people are saying. There are several different viewpoints. For example, I've had experiences with "new age" folks who talk about being one with the source, but they are talking LITERAL, as in all people dissapear back into God. Like we are not even actual beings anymore. We are just basically SWALLOWED up by God, and we still have some consciousness or what have you, but we are just one big "God blob" sort of floating around. Which I have thought about before, and thought to myself... hmmm. If THAT is true, then ok... that's fine, God is God and it's His creation. BUT then my mind wanders over to the picture in my heart and mind of the absolute masterpiece of a world with creatures in love with their Creator... It is an absolute masterpiece. A true physical world that is so far beyond what our fallen world is. A world with people and creatures and no sin, and nothing but LOVE. And this just absolute WORSHIP of God THROUGH everything in this new world. He is absolutely infused into every molecule and we will be AWARE of that! Everything will be a celebration of God. Because, we're just going to be swallowed up by Him. But not swallowed up in the sense that we cease to be. Then I look back on that "morphed into God, as a God-blob" and think... "eh! are you kidding me?!!! That is such a dim, colorless view!" Eye has not seen!!!!  :icon_flower: The picture in my mind, that just seems to grow more colorful and more majestic and just breathtaking, is a real, tangible reality.


Keep in mind, like I said, I have my own views/thoughts/beliefs on this subject, but I DO like to know where others are coming from. When I feel I don't KNOW where someone is coming from regarding a topic I find to be vital, I have to find out what the other person is really truly saying.


Thanks!  :icon_flower:

Quote from: trettep on July 19, 2009, 08:00:39 PM

Quote from: Molly on July 19, 2009, 07:20:25 PM

QuoteThe carnal mind hates God.   It isn't going to ACCEPT Christ.  It is IMPOSSIBLE for the carnal mind to accept Christ.

And what makes you think that 'I' am my carnal mind any more than 'I' am my foot or my hand?

If I lose my foot, do I lose me?

Rom 8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Are you saying you never had a carnal mind? For if you did have that mind then it had to be destroyed didn't it?

If your a descendant of Adam then you have a carnal mind that needs to be destroyed.

Paul says:

Rom 7:14  For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Paul

I am saying that I am still me without a carnal mind, without a carnal hand, without a carnal foot, without a carnal eye--it might change my behavior (I can't run and play ball and kill Christians anymore) but none of it changes who "I" am.

Quote from: Molly on July 19, 2009, 11:11:17 PM

Quote from: trettep on July 19, 2009, 08:00:39 PM

Quote from: Molly on July 19, 2009, 07:20:25 PM

QuoteThe carnal mind hates God.   It isn't going to ACCEPT Christ.  It is IMPOSSIBLE for the carnal mind to accept Christ.

And what makes you think that 'I' am my carnal mind any more than 'I' am my foot or my hand?

If I lose my foot, do I lose me?

Rom 8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Are you saying you never had a carnal mind? For if you did have that mind then it had to be destroyed didn't it?

If your a descendant of Adam then you have a carnal mind that needs to be destroyed.

Paul says:

Rom 7:14  For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Paul

I am saying that I am still me without a carnal mind, without a carnal hand, without a carnal foot, without a carnal eye--it might change my behavior (I can't run and play ball and kill Christians anymore) but none of it changes who "I" am.

Hi Molly, just trying to follow what your saying.  Your saying your still YOU without a carnal mind?  How can that be? Can you see that only ONE person was saved?  Saul is gone.  Peter, Matthew, Luke, etc... all of them are GONE.  They are destroyed.  They ceased to exist.  Their spirits in times past dealt in evil where they followed death and were in bondage to fear.  That was WHO they were.  As our beloved Apostles they are no longer WHO they were since those persons were destroyed when they put on Christ.  Our Lord is going to sit as a refiners fire and as fullers soap.  A refiners fire removes the dross (that dross never returns).  The fullers used their soap to make a garment white (Our Lord is going to make our robes white).

God gives us more knowledge of the Truth the more we walk in the Truth given.

Paul

willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

Quote from: trettep on July 19, 2009, 10:32:21 PM
I disagree with this Willie.  How can we always be Him when we are carnal?

Disagreement is fine with me, bro...

HE is ALWAYS with us... that it is stated in several places does not remove it because we would "disagree" with it...

GOD is working ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL -- Eph 1:11 -- which means that HE has to DO, with ALL THINGS...

GOD is EVERYWHERE... Even Paul noted that we are IN HIM and we LIVE and move and have our being IN HIM...  He is therefore ALWAYS with us...

When we are CARNAL... Our "vision" (spiritually) is VEILED by that CARNALITY... the GLORY of CHRIST is REVEALED ...IN US... something cannot be "REVEALED" IN US, that was not there all along -- Rom 8:18 -- something "REVEALED" is THERE, just obscured from vision (either physically or spiritually) -- the word "revealed" in this verse means to "take off the cover" --  :dontknow:

Quote from: trettep on July 19, 2009, 10:32:21 PMThat would mean that the reflexive also true in that if we are Him then He is us.

You are beginning to get it bro... HE is US... the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD ...AND... EVIL... is displayed BY HIM in HIS WORKING of ALL THINGS! 

Within OUR EXPERIENCE, which was completely FOREKNOWN by HIS PERFECT FOREKNOWLEDGE, that this KNOWLEDGE (of G & E) which would be REVEALED, by this experience IN US...

He is NOT EVIL, and neither are we... WE are (being) made in HIS IMAGE which is NOT EVIL... it is GOOD, but the KNOWLEDGE of EVIL is also contained in WHO and WHAT He ...IS... and in making us IN His image... an intimate experience with WHAT EVIL is (to its dramatic and awful potential)... must be had in order to be enabled the vision of GOOD (in its dramatic and wonderful potential)

IOW... If all evil ended up being, as a little stubbed toe... WHAT of the wonders of ETERNAL GOOD are exposed in that little mishap?  ...But when Earthquakes, Hurricanes, Tornadoes and other such NATURAL disasters occur... a nice clear day is well appreciated, and has been exposed to the extreme in this massive display, dontcha think? 

Or when Alzheimers, Murder, Rape, starvation, AIDS, cancer (bringing  DEATH in all forms) and other such NATURAL and personally intimate oppositions are presented to us... the GOOD states of HEALTH and YOUTH of mind, body and spirit, are seen to be in STARK CONTRAST, are they not?  :mshock:

As I said earlier, GOD does NOT CHANGE... so, whatever He is, ... HE (always) IS what He IS... (and He IS ALL in ALL)...

What is happening here in this realm, is that He "created EVIL" which was GOD  making a PHYSICAL Universe, in which a thing called TIME would elapse, and the EVIL He "created" would be found and generated in the PHYSICAL (US -- which of ourselves, pose OPPOSITION to GOOD)... DETERIORATING and DISOBEYING the COMMANDS which HE IS... and IN which He abides...

He thereby CONVEYS the ETERNAL knowledge of GOOD and EVIL to each one that experiences it, via the experience of HIS BODY (us) within this FINITE realm of TIME...

Quote from: trettep on July 19, 2009, 10:32:21 PMCan the child of Satan be also the child of God at the same time?  If so, why be RENEWED by the Holy Spirit?

Satan is just the principality of ADVERSITY which was ALSO created by YHVH... and placed within the makeup of MAN... that the CHILDREN of  YHVH, which are collectively -- His TEMPLE and BODY... will come to KNOW GOOD and EVIL...

It kind of surprises me that you object to this, for in many instances and in many examples, you have been speaking of this in the "YOU are satan" thread!

The "child" of "satan" is the submission to ADVERSITY against the COMMAND of GOD... NOT born of some mythical "evil" being which is everywhere... rather, it is the NATURAL BEAST that man IS, and DESPARATELY WICKED Heart within man which is CONCLUDED in UNBELIEF ...BY YHVH... that man gains the KNOWLEDGE via this experience of UNBELIEF... (which is SIN, which is part of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil)...

"Renewing" is a process bro... as Paul and John noted, we remain capable of sinning, even after we have entered into a relationship with CHRIST... the WAR which Paul notes continues... for our flesh, now defiled of SIN, wishes to continue in it... AS we submit to the mind of CHRIST within (inward man)... we maintain via HIM, the control and OBEDIENCE over that which proposes ADVERSE DISOBEDIENCE (to be our resultant experience)

As I see it, ...in order for CHRIST to say He will NEVER leave us, or for Him to say that He shall ALWAYS be with us... means that He has ALWAYS been WITH US... And thereby has NEVER left us.

Also -- Rom 8:38-39 -- Paul was PERSUADED that there is NO POWER whatsoever that can SEPARATE us from the LOVE of GOD which is IN CHRIST JESUS...   If there is NOTHING that can SEPARATE us from Him, how can we be SEPARATED?   :Chinscratch:

The LOVE of GOD, ...has NEVER been SEPARATE from us at ANY TIME, and has been WITH US all along...

I am not endeavoring to convince you of anything brother P... You are welcome to disagree with what I have said here, and I have no problem with said disagreements... it is just my present observational view -- :2c: -- Taking all the pertinent texts (of which I am aware) ...into consideration... :yes:

Quote from: trettep on July 19, 2009, 07:45:53 PM
Actually He does use others to drag others.  But it is really Him, so both are right.  For example, Jesus told his disciples to follow Him and He would make them fishers of men.  Those fishermen that were called used nets which they dragged to themselves. In like manner, Jesus would use those Spiritual Fishermen to drag others to Himself.  But since they work they do is Christ Jesus in them then "yes", it would be Jesus dragging them.
Paul

Not disagreeing with the basics here, God uses all sorts of ways.  What I am saying is that no matter what,  your path is unique and personal, but not "exclusive".

Quote from: trettep on July 19, 2009, 10:32:21 PM
How can we always be Him when we are carnal?

Actually your own objection in your OP should tell you that he is.  How else does the carnal mind then come to believe if he was not there in some way the whole time?

Quote from: willieH on July 20, 2009, 06:35:00 AM
willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

Quote from: trettep on July 19, 2009, 10:32:21 PM
I disagree with this Willie.  How can we always be Him when we are carnal?

Disagreement is fine with me, bro...

HE is ALWAYS with us... that it is stated in several places does not remove it because we would "disagree" with it...

GOD is working ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL -- Eph 1:11 -- which means that HE has to DO, with ALL THINGS...

GOD is EVERYWHERE... Even Paul noted that we are IN HIM and we LIVE and move and have our being IN HIM...  He is therefore ALWAYS with us...

When we are CARNAL... Our "vision" (spiritually) is VEILED by that CARNALITY... the GLORY of CHRIST is REVEALED ...IN US... something cannot be "REVEALED" IN US, that was not there all along -- Rom 8:18 -- something "REVEALED" is THERE, just obscured from vision (either physically or spiritually) -- the word "revealed" in this verse means to "take off the cover" --  :dontknow:

Quote from: trettep on July 19, 2009, 10:32:21 PMThat would mean that the reflexive also true in that if we are Him then He is us.

You are beginning to get it bro... HE is US... the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD ...AND... EVIL... is displayed BY HIM in HIS WORKING of ALL THINGS! 

Within OUR EXPERIENCE, which was completely FOREKNOWN by HIS PERFECT FOREKNOWLEDGE, that this KNOWLEDGE (of G & E) which would be REVEALED, by this experience IN US...

He is NOT EVIL, and neither are we... WE are (being) made in HIS IMAGE which is NOT EVIL... it is GOOD, but the KNOWLEDGE of EVIL is also contained in WHO and WHAT He ...IS... and in making us IN His image... an intimate experience with WHAT EVIL is (to its dramatic and awful potential)... must be had in order to be enabled the vision of GOOD (in its dramatic and wonderful potential)

IOW... If all evil ended up being, as a little stubbed toe... WHAT of the wonders of ETERNAL GOOD are exposed in that little mishap?  ...But when Earthquakes, Hurricanes, Tornadoes and other such NATURAL disasters occur... a nice clear day is well appreciated, and has been exposed to the extreme in this massive display, dontcha think? 

Or when Alzheimers, Murder, Rape, starvation, AIDS, cancer (bringing  DEATH in all forms) and other such NATURAL and personally intimate oppositions are presented to us... the GOOD states of HEALTH and YOUTH of mind, body and spirit, are seen to be in STARK CONTRAST, are they not?  :mshock:

As I said earlier, GOD does NOT CHANGE... so, whatever He is, ... HE (always) IS what He IS... (and He IS ALL in ALL)...

What is happening here in this realm, is that He "created EVIL" which was GOD  making a PHYSICAL Universe, in which a thing called TIME would elapse, and the EVIL He "created" would be found and generated in the PHYSICAL (US -- which of ourselves, pose OPPOSITION to GOOD)... DETERIORATING and DISOBEYING the COMMANDS which HE IS... and IN which He abides...

He thereby CONVEYS the ETERNAL knowledge of GOOD and EVIL to each one that experiences it, via the experience of HIS BODY (us) within this FINITE realm of TIME...

Quote from: trettep on July 19, 2009, 10:32:21 PMCan the child of Satan be also the child of God at the same time?  If so, why be RENEWED by the Holy Spirit?

Satan is just the principality of ADVERSITY which was ALSO created by YHVH... and placed within the makeup of MAN... that the CHILDREN of  YHVH, which are collectively -- His TEMPLE and BODY... will come to KNOW GOOD and EVIL...

It kind of surprises me that you object to this, for in many instances and in many examples, you have been speaking of this in the "YOU are satan" thread!

The "child" of "satan" is the submission to ADVERSITY against the COMMAND of GOD... NOT born of some mythical "evil" being which is everywhere... rather, it is the NATURAL BEAST that man IS, and DESPARATELY WICKED Heart within man which is CONCLUDED in UNBELIEF ...BY YHVH... that man gains the KNOWLEDGE via this experience of UNBELIEF... )which is SIN, which is part of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil)...

"Renewing" is a process bro... as Paul and John noted, we remain capable of sinning, even after we have entered into a relationship with CHRIST... the WAR which Paul notes continues... for our flesh, now defiled of SIN, wishes to continue in it... AS we submit to the mind of CHRIST within (inward man)... we maintain via HIM, the control and OBEDIENCE over that which proposes ADVERSE DISOBEDIENCE (to be our resultant experience)

As I see it, ...in order for CHRIST to say He will NEVER leave us, or for Him to say that He shall ALWAYS be with us... means that He has ALWAYS been WITH US... And thereby has NEVER left us.

Also -- Rom 8:38-39 -- Paul was PERSUADED that there is NO POWER whatsoever that can SEPARATE us from the LOVE of GOD which is IN CHRIST JESUS...   If there is NOTHING that can SEPARATE us from Him, how can we be SEPARATED?   :Chinscratch:

The LOVE of GOD, ...has NEVER been SEPARATE from us at ANY TIME, and has been WITH US all along...

I am not endeavoring to convince you of anything brother P... You are welcome to disagree with what I have said here, and I have no problem with said disagreements... it is just my present observational view -- :2c: -- Taking all the pertinent texts (of which I am aware) ...into consideration... :yes:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

The problem with all this willie is that we DIE.  In Him is Life.  Back to my reflexive statement.  That if God is in us then we are in Him.  Remember our witness bears witness with His that we are the Children of God.  So if position stood then it would mean that also in Him is death.  That just isn't so.

Wouldn't you agree that God's Spirit is not the same as OUR Spirit?  So if that is the fact then God is not ALL in ALL at this time.  For that to happen then our Spirit must be the same as His.

Paul

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 20, 2009, 07:09:20 AM

Quote from: trettep on July 19, 2009, 07:45:53 PM
Actually He does use others to drag others.  But it is really Him, so both are right.  For example, Jesus told his disciples to follow Him and He would make them fishers of men.  Those fishermen that were called used nets which they dragged to themselves. In like manner, Jesus would use those Spiritual Fishermen to drag others to Himself.  But since they work they do is Christ Jesus in them then "yes", it would be Jesus dragging them.
Paul

Not disagreeing with the basics here, God uses all sorts of ways.  What I am saying is that no matter what,  your path is unique and personal, but not "exclusive".

It isn't unique though.  It is the same path for everyone.  The same process.

Paul

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 20, 2009, 07:16:12 AM

Quote from: trettep on July 19, 2009, 10:32:21 PM
How can we always be Him when we are carnal?

Actually your own objection in your OP should tell you that he is.  How else does the carnal mind then come to believe if he was not there in some way the whole time?

The Holy Spirit comes upon us.  We don't always possess the Holy Spirit.

Paul

Quote from: trettep on July 20, 2009, 05:16:02 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 20, 2009, 07:09:20 AM

Quote from: trettep on July 19, 2009, 07:45:53 PM
Actually He does use others to drag others.  But it is really Him, so both are right.  For example, Jesus told his disciples to follow Him and He would make them fishers of men.  Those fishermen that were called used nets which they dragged to themselves. In like manner, Jesus would use those Spiritual Fishermen to drag others to Himself.  But since they work they do is Christ Jesus in them then "yes", it would be Jesus dragging them.
Paul

Not disagreeing with the basics here, God uses all sorts of ways.  What I am saying is that no matter what,  your path is unique and personal, but not "exclusive".

It isn't unique though.  It is the same path for everyone.  The same process.

Paul

The process may be,  "all come through Christ"   but our path is not all the same for everyone, our paths are unique. 

Your path is not the same as mine.

Quote from: trettep on July 20, 2009, 05:18:01 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 20, 2009, 07:16:12 AM

Quote from: trettep on July 19, 2009, 10:32:21 PM
How can we always be Him when we are carnal?

Actually your own objection in your OP should tell you that he is.  How else does the carnal mind then come to believe if he was not there in some way the whole time?

The Holy Spirit comes upon us.  We don't always possess the Holy Spirit.

Paul

Not having possession of that from the start does not prevent the preparation God does for the unique time in which we will.   

God is always with us.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 20, 2009, 05:37:33 PM

Quote from: trettep on July 20, 2009, 05:16:02 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 20, 2009, 07:09:20 AM

Quote from: trettep on July 19, 2009, 07:45:53 PM
Actually He does use others to drag others.  But it is really Him, so both are right.  For example, Jesus told his disciples to follow Him and He would make them fishers of men.  Those fishermen that were called used nets which they dragged to themselves. In like manner, Jesus would use those Spiritual Fishermen to drag others to Himself.  But since they work they do is Christ Jesus in them then "yes", it would be Jesus dragging them.
Paul

Not disagreeing with the basics here, God uses all sorts of ways.  What I am saying is that no matter what,  your path is unique and personal, but not "exclusive".

It isn't unique though.  It is the same path for everyone.  The same process.

Paul

The process may be,  "all come through Christ"   but our path is not all the same for everyone, our paths are unique. 

Your path is not the same as mine.

I think I know what your saying and I would agree.  But I don't agree that there is such thing as a Personal Savior.  I believe the Bible is showing that the "person" is being destroyed and that the only person that gets saved is already saved (Jesus Christ) and that the only way we become saved is to become Him by the destruction of our person.  Therefore, there is no Personal Savior in that sense.

Paul

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 20, 2009, 05:41:13 PM

Quote from: trettep on July 20, 2009, 05:18:01 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 20, 2009, 07:16:12 AM

Quote from: trettep on July 19, 2009, 10:32:21 PM
How can we always be Him when we are carnal?

Actually your own objection in your OP should tell you that he is.  How else does the carnal mind then come to believe if he was not there in some way the whole time?

The Holy Spirit comes upon us.  We don't always possess the Holy Spirit.

Paul

Not having possession of that from the start does not prevent the preparation God does for the unique time in which we will.   

God is always with us.

God is always loving us and always preparing us for receipt of His Spirit.  I don't want any of us to confuse that of meaning that everyone has received God because God's Spirit is where His Kingdom is and His Kindgom doesn't yet comprise us all.

Paul

My  :2c:

There is a difference between Christ being a "personal savior" and someone having "your own salvation." Paul said to "work out your own salvation, for it is God in you who both wills and works of his good pleasure" (paraphrase).

We are all in need of a personal salvation if only in that OUR old man must die, as Paul pointed out. In that respect Christ saves the "person" from an old sinful self, and that salvation becomes our own in that we can work outward to the world, our new salvation from sin.

If the evangelical position is that Christ is a personal savior from hell and that he therefore cannot save people from the hell fantasy, then that is what I would disagree with.

Quote from: Seth on July 20, 2009, 08:17:03 PM
My  :2c:

There is a difference between Christ being a "personal savior" and someone having "your own salvation." Paul said to "work out your own salvation, for it is God in you who both wills and works of his good pleasure" (paraphrase).

We are all in need of a personal salvation if only in that OUR old man must die, as Paul pointed out. In that respect Christ saves the "person" from an old sinful self, and that salvation becomes our own in that we can work outward to the world, our new salvation from sin.

If the evangelical position is that Christ is a personal savior from hell and that he therefore cannot save people from the hell fantasy, then that is what I would disagree with.

There is NO example of the "person" of the Apostles ever being saved or any disciples or followers of Christ.

Paul

Yes there is. Paul says "WE were saved in this hope..."

Quote from: trettep on July 20, 2009, 08:08:41 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 20, 2009, 05:37:33 PM

Quote from: trettep on July 20, 2009, 05:16:02 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 20, 2009, 07:09:20 AM

Quote from: trettep on July 19, 2009, 07:45:53 PM
Actually He does use others to drag others.  But it is really Him, so both are right.  For example, Jesus told his disciples to follow Him and He would make them fishers of men.  Those fishermen that were called used nets which they dragged to themselves. In like manner, Jesus would use those Spiritual Fishermen to drag others to Himself.  But since they work they do is Christ Jesus in them then "yes", it would be Jesus dragging them.
Paul

Not disagreeing with the basics here, God uses all sorts of ways.  What I am saying is that no matter what,  your path is unique and personal, but not "exclusive".

It isn't unique though.  It is the same path for everyone.  The same process.

Paul

The process may be,  "all come through Christ"   but our path is not all the same for everyone, our paths are unique. 

Your path is not the same as mine.

I think I know what your saying and I would agree.  But I don't agree that there is such thing as a Personal Savior.  I believe the Bible is showing that the "person" is being destroyed and that the only person that gets saved is already saved (Jesus Christ) and that the only way we become saved is to become Him by the destruction of our person.  Therefore, there is no Personal Savior in that sense.

Paul

Well,  you see Jesus in a way personally unique to you and no mans terms, phrases, doctrines, teachings or assertions will change that. 

Let me put it this way....understanding that I agree with your original objection but feel that the term personal saviour has nothing to do with the problem.


It comes down to others expecting that I accept Christ to their satisfaction.

Quote from: Seth on July 20, 2009, 08:32:42 PM
Yes there is. Paul says "WE were saved in this hope..."

Name a "person" that was ever saved other than Jesus Christ?  There is no "persons" saved.  All of those that are saved have a NEW "person" which is Jesus Christ.

Paul

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 20, 2009, 09:34:25 PM

Quote from: trettep on July 20, 2009, 08:08:41 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 20, 2009, 05:37:33 PM

Quote from: trettep on July 20, 2009, 05:16:02 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 20, 2009, 07:09:20 AM

Quote from: trettep on July 19, 2009, 07:45:53 PM
Actually He does use others to drag others.  But it is really Him, so both are right.  For example, Jesus told his disciples to follow Him and He would make them fishers of men.  Those fishermen that were called used nets which they dragged to themselves. In like manner, Jesus would use those Spiritual Fishermen to drag others to Himself.  But since they work they do is Christ Jesus in them then "yes", it would be Jesus dragging them.
Paul

Not disagreeing with the basics here, God uses all sorts of ways.  What I am saying is that no matter what,  your path is unique and personal, but not "exclusive".

It isn't unique though.  It is the same path for everyone.  The same process.

Paul

The process may be,  "all come through Christ"   but our path is not all the same for everyone, our paths are unique. 

Your path is not the same as mine.

I think I know what your saying and I would agree.  But I don't agree that there is such thing as a Personal Savior.  I believe the Bible is showing that the "person" is being destroyed and that the only person that gets saved is already saved (Jesus Christ) and that the only way we become saved is to become Him by the destruction of our person.  Therefore, there is no Personal Savior in that sense.

Paul

Well,  you see Jesus in a way personally unique to you and no mans terms, phrases, doctrines, teachings or assertions will change that. 

Let me put it this way....understanding that I agree with your original objection but feel that the term personal saviour has nothing to do with the problem.


It comes down to others expecting that I accept Christ to their satisfaction.

I don't think that I see Jesus in a way that is unique to JUST me.  I believe I see Jesus in a manner that the Apostles did as well.  But again, I think I understand your point.  As to your other point about others expecting you accept Christ to their satisfaction, you may have to clarify a bit more.  For example, we both know that Paul and Peter and the rest of the Apostles must have expected that those following them were going to indeed FOLLOW.  And in fact, we see where Paul rebukes some for not following to his expectation here:

1Co 1:12  Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Co 1:13  Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
1Co 1:14  I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1Co 1:15  Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

Recall this is in his letter to the Corinthian Congregation who is makes rebuke to because he is expecting them to follow his words.

Paul

Quote from: trettep on July 20, 2009, 10:36:16 PM

Quote from: Seth on July 20, 2009, 08:32:42 PM
Yes there is. Paul says "WE were saved in this hope..."

Name a "person" that was ever saved other than Jesus Christ? 

Paul

Paul said "We were saved in this hope....

Quote from: trettep on July 20, 2009, 10:49:07 PM

I don't think that I see Jesus in a way that is unique to JUST me.  I believe I see Jesus in a manner that the Apostles did as well.  But again, I think I understand your point.  As to your other point about others expecting you accept Christ to their satisfaction, you may have to clarify a bit more.  For example, we both know that Paul and Peter and the rest of the Apostles must have expected that those following them were going to indeed FOLLOW.  And in fact, we see where Paul rebukes some for not following to his expectation here:

1Co 1:12  Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Co 1:13  Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
1Co 1:14  I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1Co 1:15  Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

Recall this is in his letter to the Corinthian Congregation who is makes rebuke to because he is expecting them to follow his words.

Paul

Actually it is what I am saying to believers.  If you say to me that I have to accept Christ a certain way, your expecting me to believe what you say.  Paul is actually saying not to associate his name with what people believe.  

That is quite the opposite of what we see in the major sects of Christianity. We see this alot, such and such wrote a book, such and such has a big church, such and such has a ministry.

1C 1:10 . Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

I have two friends who see Christ, but they have been so attacked by christians that they will not offer to anyone the expected words that religion asserts, instead they simply live it.

There is no division between me and my friends even if they have never said the phrase "I accept Jesus Christ"   I know they do in spirit in the unique way they bear fruit.


1C 1:17 . For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

willieH:  Hi sister S...

Sorry it took so long to get to this reply sis...  :blush:

I mean my answer in the softest way sis...  :cloud9:  ...If my speech seems a bit direct or at times in this reply, please forgive me, I do not mean to sound at all crass...  :mblush:

Quote from: sparrow on July 19, 2009, 10:35:33 PM
Just because I like to tear things apart and be sure of what people are saying...
Now sorry if it sounds like I'm in kindergarten here for a minute, but just bear with a sister.. :laughing7:

Are you saying that we are all going to be morphed into one being?
We will not be separate beings?

It depends on the perception of "being" sis... Is the EYE which is a "being" or essential part of vision, not completely different than the EAR?  Is LOVE which is in the heart not an intangible PART of ourselves, yet has no particular "dimensions" or Physical attributes?

JESUS noted to Nicodemus that he could not PERCIEVE (believe) or behold HEAVENLY THINGS, it was enough for him to try and "get" the Earthly things -- John 3:12

I am no more qualified to explain HEAVENLY THINGS or HEAVENLY EXISTENCE than any other man, it is enough for me to merge into the HEAVENLY "thing" (JESUS), that came here FROM THERE, and check my "perceptions" of HEAVEN at that "door"...

What I DO know is that as we merge into JESUS, we merge into service of the Father, while here on the earth... And it is BEYOND us to KNOW what Heaven holds in store, so it is best we concentrate on the "here & now" instead of speculating on the "there & then"...  :cloud9:

Quote from: sparrow on July 19, 2009, 10:35:33 PMExample... let's say a glass jar is shattered into a billion pieces. Then those billion pieces are melted down and formed back into being a glass jar?

Are we just going to be one big blob?

That would be a speculation of "earthly" perception - eh?  :dontknow:

Quote from: sparrow on July 19, 2009, 10:35:33 PMSee... I don't really think that you are saying that.
But it could be construed that way.
But maybe you ARE saying that.?

???

I can only "say" that LOVE definitely exists here... but it cannot be measured by "earthly" means... so may also, be ALL other "Heavenly" things...

Quote from: sparrow on July 19, 2009, 10:35:33 PMLiterally, what do you mean "all we are is his body and temple"?
Are you saying that we are Jesus?
But He was shattered into billions of pieces (people) and then they (we, the pieces) are going to morph back into Him literally and become one? So there will be no actual PEOPLE walking around?
Just Him?

You began this question with the word "literally"... and I believe that is where your answer lies... the perception of Heaven, by using LITERAL Earthly perception will arrive at the same futility as trying to measure LOVE with "scale" or "ruler"...

We are each COME FORTH from Him, as ARE ALL THINGS -- Col 1:16-17  If we are extensions of Him, are we not PART of Him?  That we are named HIS BODY and the TEMPLE of GOD, and we are to seek UNITY, ...are we not therefore, SEEKING to make ALL THIS add up to -- ONE?  :first:

Quote from: sparrow on July 19, 2009, 10:35:33 PMI have my own views and thoughts but I am just trying to dissect what you (and others) are saying.

Keep in mind, I do not come from a church background, so some phrases/terminology is lost on me at times. It makes sense from a spiritual point of view, but then I start thinking... maybe they are talking LITERALLY. Then to me, some of the glory is lost, in my eyes. Then I start to not understand what the heck a person is saying at all. Do you know what I mean?

I did not "grow up" in the "church" either... Though I did have some teaching from my mom in my early days concerning God... My parents were not "church-goers"...

In our desire to KNOW, we must come to a place of humility which notes we cannot KNOW it all...  There will be things to learn every day of our lives... and IN LIVING, shall we LEARN as well as in STUDY...

My advice is to leave "LITERAL" at the door as you seek to enter the SPIRITUAL...  :thumbsup:

Quote from: sparrow on July 19, 2009, 10:35:33 PMI think the reason I question people so much about this topic when it is brought up is because I need to know EXACTLY what people are saying. There are several different viewpoints. For example, I've had experiences with "new age" folks who talk about being one with the source, but they are talking LITERAL, as in all people dissapear back into God. Like we are not even actual beings anymore.

Again... the "LITERAL" man is seeking ONENESS all life long... which is why we MATE, why we TEAMWORK, why we wish to have HARMONY, etc... If one believes IN GOD, and GOD has created this incredible Creation of VARIETY, yet works together to make it viable for ALL... then to suppose that formula shall change in ETERNITY, is pretty INOBSERVANT...

I am not a "scientist or doctor" so forgive this somewhat bumbling attempt --- But, My body works as MANY MEMBERS, to the edification and sustainence of itself:

My BRAIN, using my EYES to observe the food on the plate, and instruct my ARM, assisted by the ELBOW and WRIST, to extend my FINGERS to grasp a fork then the HAND to the plate, to place food in my MOUTH, within the TEETH to chew it so it may be swallowed by my TONGUE and THROAT, that it may reach the STOMACH, which digests the food, and in doing so, separates the nutrients and sends the nutrients through the BLOOD, which is manufactured by the BONE MARROW and then is pumped by the HEART, to the varying parts of the BODY which need these individual nutrients, and in turn the INTESTINES remove the waste and, well you know the rest... :wink: --- THUS the varying MEMBERS in a WONDERFUL and cooperative effort, sustain the BODY as a UNIT=ONE.

Quote from: sparrow on July 19, 2009, 10:35:33 PMWe are just basically SWALLOWED up by God, and we still have some consciousness or what have you, but we are just one big "God blob" sort of floating around. Which I have thought about before, and thought to myself... hmmm. If THAT is true, then ok... that's fine, God is God and it's His creation. BUT then my mind wanders over to the picture in my heart and mind of the absolute masterpiece of a world with creatures in love with their Creator... It is an absolute masterpiece.

Might I interrupt for a moment... Does your HEART object to being the heart?  Is it envious or upset that it is not the EYE?  Did GOD not set these into ONE BODY?

It appears to me that you are applying your physical perception to things which NONE of us can KNOW...  I do not know what the RETURN to Heaven shall be, but I can tell you this... there shall be NO OBJECTIONS to what GOD has planned for all of us...

(IMO) What is IMPORTANT while here in this life, ...is to GAIN as much UNITY with GOD and His Creation (all living things) and LOSE as much SELF as possible in that process, while we are here...  :dontknow:

QuoteA true physical world that is so far beyond what our fallen world is. A world with people and creatures and no sin, and nothing but LOVE. And this just absolute WORSHIP of God THROUGH everything in this new world. He is absolutely infused into every molecule and we will be AWARE of that! Everything will be a celebration of God.

I do not disagree with any of that sister S... except the "physical" portion.  Though I do not name ABSOLUTES for I cannot see Heaven and its doings... I see this life as a REFLECTION of what is truly REAL...  The SPIRITUAL is not defined by the PHYSICAL, it is the other way around... GOD is SPIRIT... and that which is TRULY REAL, is SPIRITUAL... for it emanates from Him...

Quote from: sparrow on July 19, 2009, 10:35:33 PMBecause, we're just going to be swallowed up by Him. But not swallowed up in the sense that we cease to be.

Again, a quick interruption... Does the HEART "cease to BE" because it is a single MEMBER of a MULTIPLE MEMBER entity?  How about the EYE?

"BEING" is not set upon the PHYSICAL... truely "BEING" is the gathering together of ALL THINGS...  Just as the BODY is truly MAGNIFICENT, because it's workings, are the various MEMBERS within UNITY...

Quote from: sparrow on July 19, 2009, 10:35:33 PMThen I look back on that "morphed into God, as a God-blob" and think... "eh! are you kidding me?!!! That is such a dim, colorless view!" Eye has not seen!!!!  :icon_flower: The picture in my mind, that just seems to grow more colorful and more majestic and just breathtaking, is a real, tangible reality.

Keep in mind, like I said, I have my own views/thoughts/beliefs on this subject, but I DO like to know where others are coming from. When I feel I don't KNOW where someone is coming from regarding a topic I find to be vital, I have to find out what the other person is really truly saying.

There is nothing with having a perception... If you percieve FLOWERS and HONEY and SUMMERTIME, with everyone as INDIVIDUALS as Heaven, then I do not see anything wrong with that... I can only prophesy that it is MUCH MORE than that... for as you just SAID:  EYE (one member) hath not seen, nor EAR (another member) heard... for that matter, MOUTH has not tasted, HAND has not musically played, or painted, or TEETH have not chewed, or LEG and FOOT have not walked, NOSE has not smelled --- 

:icon_flower:  I think you get the picture!  :icon_flower:

:Peace:

willieH: Hi Paul...  :bgdance:

As I previously stated, it is not my endeavor to change your thinking or beliefs... we are all on a journey... and are in different places on that pathway.  It is up to Him when and how that journey shall be adjusted BY HIM... (not me)  :wink1:

Quote from: trettep on July 20, 2009, 05:06:49 PM
The problem with all this willie is that we DIE.  In Him is Life.

I agree, however...

Within HIS KNOWLEDGE is also, DEATH for it is:

(1) within and part of the Creation of YHVH and has been placed BY HIM, within this scenario...
(2) the resultant effect of those who experience EVIL and LEARN its knowledge
(3) ordained to BE, for men are APPOINTED to DIE -- BY HIM...
(4) WRITTEN in His WORD, which is within HIS KNOWLEDGE -- which is within Himself...

Quote from: trettep on July 20, 2009, 05:06:49 PMBack to my reflexive statement.  That if God is in us then we are in Him.  Remember our witness bears witness with His that we are the Children of God.  So if position stood then it would mean that also in Him is death.  That just isn't so.

Sorry Paul, but DEATH is not only a PART of His Creation, it is an APPOINTMENT made BY HIM for ALL who enter HIS "Creation"...

How can you say that IN HIM (which are ALL THINGS to INCLUDE -- "death"), ...that Death does not exist IN HIM?

DEATH did not "invent" itself!  It is a great portion of the definition of LIFE!

The WORD says that IN HIM is LIFE... though the Scripture  does not say that IN HIM is DEATH, the FACT REMAINS that it IS contained IN HIS  KNOWLEDGE (and FOREKNOWLEDGE), ...which "knowledge" MAN has been exposed to, gained, and which also has been RECOGNIZED BY HIM -- Gen 3:22

DEATH exists within HIS KNOWLEDGE which is His FOREKNOWLEDGE, and which is part of what we are EXPERIENCING in this life... For HE CREATED EVIL, and the resultant penalties associated with its indulgence!

DEATH is WRITTEN in His WORD... which means that HIS WORD contains DEATH, as well as LIFE... does it not?

ALL that is WRITTEN in His WORD, ...exists because of His WORD, does it NOT? -- Col 1:17 -- John 1:3 -- LIGHT ...and... DARKNESS are emergent from HIM are they not?

EVERYTHING that was "MADE" (including DEATH which is APPOINTED by HIM -- Heb 9:27 -- Rev 13:8), was "MADE" BY HIM, ...no?  :dontknow:

It is quite evident, that DISOBEDIENCE exists... did it INVENT ITSELF Paul?   :dontknow: 

What denotes DISOBEDIENCE?  Does not the COMMAND do so? Rom 7:10 -- And if the COMMAND does so... then, do you deduce that "DISOBEDIENCE" to the COMMAND, has nothing to do with the COMMAND?  :dontknow:  How can that be?

It is the IRONY of the Mystery of GOD... that He produces a HOLY and LIFE GIVING  COMMAND, which in turn, by disobedience to it, produces DEATH...

The COMMAND is LIFE GIVING, only when it is OBEYED... and in the ETERNAL, it is so... in TIME it is given NOT to be so... that the CHILDREN can learn the ETERNAL  KNOWLEDGE of Good & Evil...

Quote from: trettep on July 20, 2009, 05:06:49 PMWouldn't you agree that God's Spirit is not the same as OUR Spirit?

Our "spirit" IS HIS... it is the portion of HIM that we ARE... We are HIS CHILDREN because HE delegates a part of Himself to US and therein, ...WE ARE...

He has disassociated Himself as GOD, ...from the practice of EVIL, however, He has delegated it to US, that we, as HIS CHILDREN have HIS KNOWLEDGE which is the final element (please excuse my "finite" terminology) -- that makes HIM -- ALL in ALL... for without the KNOWLEDGE of G & E... then there is a part of HIM (His body and temple) which is not invested in His CHILDREN...

I have given the example using WATER... GOD in his knowledge which is COMPLETE, that WATER is WET... and His BODY had never experience WET... so He is "dipping us" into the pool, one (member) at a time that the BODY has ALL the realizations of the HEAD...

KNOWLEDGE is a 2-fold entity... INFORMATION, applied to EXPERIENCE... without experience, it remains just inert INFORMATION.

Quote from: trettep on July 20, 2009, 05:06:49 PMSo if that is the fact then God is not ALL in ALL at this time.  For that to happen then our Spirit must be the same as His.

GOD is ALL in ALL, at ALL TIMES Paul...  What part of Heaven OR Creation EXISTS without Him?

That you and I, within the FINITE realm and existence we are presently in, cannot SEE that He ...IS... ALL in ALL, does not prevent it from BEING...

GOD trancends TIME and ALL that occurs within it... It was DECLARED according to His PERFECT FOREKNOWLEDGE, "beginning" with the END!  DEATH is a part of that FOREKNOWLEDGE and DECLARATION, whether you recognize it or not...

That DEATH was declared and WRITTEN, means that it occurs because HE declared it to occur, and its existence is a portion of HIS KNOWLEDGE which made that DECLARATION...  :dontknow:

:Peace:

Quote from: Seth on July 20, 2009, 11:18:38 PM

Quote from: trettep on July 20, 2009, 10:36:16 PM

Quote from: Seth on July 20, 2009, 08:32:42 PM
Yes there is. Paul says "WE were saved in this hope..."

Name a "person" that was ever saved other than Jesus Christ? 

Paul

Paul said "We were saved in this hope....

But I said to mention a person.  You said we but didn't describe that "we".  Paul was a persecuter of the saints.  That is how Paul IS.  Was not that "person" destroyed? - such that Paul was no longer the Paul that persecuted the saints?  Do you really believe it is Paul's person "that" is no longer persecuting the saints?  Wasn't it rather Christ that lived thru Paul that was the "new man" in Paul that didn't persecute the saints?

Paul

Quote from: willieH on July 21, 2009, 01:22:56 AM
I do not disagree with any of that sister S... except the "physical" portion.  Though I do not name ABSOLUTES for I cannot see Heaven and its doings... I see this life as a REFLECTION of what is truly REAL...  The SPIRITUAL is not defined by the PHYSICAL, it is the other way around... GOD is SPIRIT... and that which is TRULY REAL, is SPIRITUAL... for it emanates from Him...

Hey bro,
What do you mean? You don't believe there will be an actual tangible realm?
Are you sure you are not spiritualizing things too much?

Quote from: willieH on July 21, 2009, 02:17:41 AM
willieH: Hi Paul...  :bgdance:

As I previously stated, it is not my endeavor to change your thinking or beliefs... we are all on a journey... and are in different places on that pathway.  It is up to Him when and how that journey shall be adjusted BY HIM... (not me)  :wink1:

Quote from: trettep on July 20, 2009, 05:06:49 PM
The problem with all this willie is that we DIE.  In Him is Life.

I agree, however...

Within HIS KNOWLEDGE is also, DEATH for it is:

(1) within and part of the Creation of YHVH and has been placed BY HIM, within this scenario...
(2) the resultant effect of those who experience EVIL and LEARN its knowledge
(3) ordained to BE, for men are APPOINTED to DIE -- BY HIM...
(4) WRITTEN in His WORD, which is within HIS KNOWLEDGE -- which is within Himself...

Quote from: trettep on July 20, 2009, 05:06:49 PMBack to my reflexive statement.  That if God is in us then we are in Him.  Remember our witness bears witness with His that we are the Children of God.  So if position stood then it would mean that also in Him is death.  That just isn't so.

Sorry Paul, but DEATH is not only a PART of His Creation, it is an APPOINTMENT made BY HIM for ALL who enter HIS "Creation"...

How can you say that IN HIM (which are ALL THINGS to INCLUDE -- "death"), ...that Death does not exist IN HIM?

DEATH did not "invent" itself!  It is a great portion of the definition of LIFE!

The WORD says that IN HIM is LIFE... though the Scripture  does not say that IN HIM is DEATH, the FACT REMAINS that it IS contained IN HIS  KNOWLEDGE (and FOREKNOWLEDGE), ...which "knowledge" MAN has been exposed to, gained, and which also has been RECOGNIZED BY HIM -- Gen 3:22

DEATH exists within HIS KNOWLEDGE which is His FOREKNOWLEDGE, and which is part of what we are EXPERIENCING in this life... For HE CREATED EVIL, and the resultant penalties associated with its indulgence!

DEATH is WRITTEN in His WORD... which means that HIS WORD contains DEATH, as well as LIFE... does it not?

ALL that is WRITTEN in His WORD, ...exists because of His WORD, does it NOT? -- Col 1:17 -- John 1:3 -- LIGHT ...and... DARKNESS are emergent from HIM are they not?

EVERYTHING that was "MADE" (including DEATH which is APPOINTED by HIM -- Heb 9:27 -- Rev 13:8), was "MADE" BY HIM, ...no?  :dontknow:

It is quite evident, that DISOBEDIENCE exists... did it INVENT ITSELF Paul?   :dontknow: 

What denotes DISOBEDIENCE?  Does not the COMMAND do so? Rom 7:10 -- And if the COMMAND does so... then, do you deduce that "DISOBEDIENCE" to the COMMAND, has nothing to do with the COMMAND?  :dontknow:  How can that be?

It is the IRONY of the Mystery of GOD... that He produces a HOLY and LIFE GIVING  COMMAND, which in turn, by disobedience to it, produces DEATH...

The COMMAND is LIFE GIVING, only when it is OBEYED... and in the ETERNAL, it is so... in TIME it is given NOT to be so... that the CHILDREN can learn the ETERNAL  KNOWLEDGE of Good & Evil...

Quote from: trettep on July 20, 2009, 05:06:49 PMWouldn't you agree that God's Spirit is not the same as OUR Spirit?

Our "spirit" IS HIS... it is the portion of HIM that we ARE... We are HIS CHILDREN because HE delegates a part of Himself to US and therein, ...WE ARE...

He has disassociated Himself as GOD, ...from the practice of EVIL, however, He has delegated it to US, that we, as HIS CHILDREN have HIS KNOWLEDGE which is the final element (please excuse my "finite" terminology) -- that makes HIM -- ALL in ALL... for without the KNOWLEDGE of G & E... then there is a part of HIM (His body and temple) which is not invested in His CHILDREN...

I have given the example using WATER... GOD in his knowledge which is COMPLETE, that WATER is WET... and His BODY had never experience WET... so He is "dipping us" into the pool, one (member) at a time that the BODY has ALL the realizations of the HEAD...

KNOWLEDGE is a 2-fold entity... INFORMATION, applied to EXPERIENCE... without experience, it remains just inert INFORMATION.

Quote from: trettep on July 20, 2009, 05:06:49 PMSo if that is the fact then God is not ALL in ALL at this time.  For that to happen then our Spirit must be the same as His.

GOD is ALL in ALL, at ALL TIMES Paul...  What part of Heaven OR Creation EXISTS without Him?

That you and I, within the FINITE realm and existence we are presently in, cannot SEE that He ...IS... ALL in ALL, does not prevent it from BEING...

GOD trancends TIME and ALL that occurs within it... It was DECLARED according to His PERFECT FOREKNOWLEDGE, "beginning" with the END!  DEATH is a part of that FOREKNOWLEDGE and DECLARATION, whether you recognize it or not...

That DEATH was declared and WRITTEN, means that it occurs because HE declared it to occur, and its existence is a portion of HIS KNOWLEDGE which made that DECLARATION...  :dontknow:

:Peace:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Well this is definately one of our major divides.  I can't comprend that God is the Spirit of Death and of Life.  For the Spirit of death shares its nature with temptation and sin - which God claims to not do.  I therefore cannot reconcile that with your beliefs.

It's all well brother.  In time we will all share a common knowledge of Truth.  Praise God.

Paul

Quote from: trettep on July 21, 2009, 02:20:05 AM

Quote from: Seth on July 20, 2009, 11:18:38 PM

Quote from: trettep on July 20, 2009, 10:36:16 PM

Quote from: Seth on July 20, 2009, 08:32:42 PM
Yes there is. Paul says "WE were saved in this hope..."

Name a "person" that was ever saved other than Jesus Christ? 

Paul

Paul said "We were saved in this hope....

But I said to mention a person.  You said we but didn't describe that "we".  Paul was a persecuter of the saints.  That is how Paul IS.  Was not that "person" destroyed? - such that Paul was no longer the Paul that persecuted the saints?  Do you really believe it is Paul's person "that" is no longer persecuting the saints?  Wasn't it rather Christ that lived thru Paul that was the "new man" in Paul that didn't persecute the saints?

Paul

What I believe happens is "I, yet not I"

That is how Paul phrased the exception to his own workings. He would say "I, yet not I." He would acknowledge his own consciousness as an individual and how he did certain things, but then would then cancel himself out by acknowledging the invisible hand of God giving him grace to will and do his work through Paul.

I do not see that Paul's very conscious identity was wiped out, but that he was placed under God's control. Paul acknowledges that there are two consciousness (ie that Paul was aware of what he was doing as being not Christ himself, but under His control)

When Paul says "We were saved in this hope...." he includes himself. He, as a person, was saved from the old him, and so were the other folks included in that we. Paul did not say "we were destroyed in his hope" but that "WE were saved."

Quote from: Seth on July 21, 2009, 02:25:24 AM

Quote from: trettep on July 21, 2009, 02:20:05 AM

Quote from: Seth on July 20, 2009, 11:18:38 PM

Quote from: trettep on July 20, 2009, 10:36:16 PM

Quote from: Seth on July 20, 2009, 08:32:42 PM
Yes there is. Paul says "WE were saved in this hope..."

Name a "person" that was ever saved other than Jesus Christ? 

Paul

Paul said "We were saved in this hope....

But I said to mention a person.  You said we but didn't describe that "we".  Paul was a persecuter of the saints.  That is how Paul IS.  Was not that "person" destroyed? - such that Paul was no longer the Paul that persecuted the saints?  Do you really believe it is Paul's person "that" is no longer persecuting the saints?  Wasn't it rather Christ that lived thru Paul that was the "new man" in Paul that didn't persecute the saints?

Paul

What I believe happens is "I, yet not I"

That is how Paul phrased the exception to his own workings. He would say "I, yet not I." He would acknowledge his own consciousness as an individual and how he did certain things, but then would then cancel himself out by acknowledging the invisible hand of God giving him grace to will and do his work through Paul.

I do not see that Paul's very conscious identity was wiped out, but that he was placed under God's control. Paul acknowledges that there are two consciousness (ie that Paul was aware of what he was doing as being not Christ himself, but under His control)

When Paul says "We were saved in this hope...." he includes himself. He, as a person, was saved from the old him, and so were the other folks included in that we. Paul did not say "we were destroyed in his hope" but that "WE were saved."

Hi Seth, I don't think we are seeing at all close on this topic either.  Seems we are way far apart in walk.  God bless you brother.

Paul

Personal Savior?

"Salvation is health, restored by the Spirit of God."

peacemaker

Quote from: trettep on July 21, 2009, 06:38:07 AM
Hi Seth, I don't think we are seeing at all close on this topic either.  Seems we are way far apart in walk.  God bless you brother.

Paul

God bless you too. I have truly enjoyed talking to you.  :HeartThrob:

We fill up where we are, along with God's presence, we take the form of our places.  We are definite in form and unaffected by our circumstances.  We are sons of The Cloud and of The Rock.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it." (Revelation 2:17, AV) 

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." (Revelation 3:12, AV)

We will always be ever increasing in our distinctiveness.  There will be an increasing secret of identity for God and His offspring, and an increasing revelation of that identity.  What made Moses who he was, or Elijah who he was, or Samuel, or Jesus, or John , or Paul...was the Holy Spirit of God.  They are example of how the closer we are to God, the more unique we are and, simultaneously, the more we have in common.  Each of these famous men of God were very different from one another.  Yet, anybody who comes to them finds much about them with which they can identify.

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ." (1 Corinthians 12:12, AV)

The, "Many, are one..." is descriptive of the nature of God.  We are partaking of the Divine nature.  We are Elohim.  "I have said you all are Elohim; all of you, children of El-Elyon." (Psalm 82:6, AV)  Jesus says, "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?  If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken..." (John 10:34-35, AV)  God may be thought of as a vast family of like beings born of Him. Being of the same nature, all are in fellowship with one another.  This the God Who is Love has purposed and will accomplish.  "And we shall reign in all the earth." (Revelation 5:12, AV)

QuoteWe are partaking of the Divine nature.  We are Elohim. 

yes, y'shû‛âh 'ĕlôhîym--the holy arm of God.

willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

I asked you several questions in my last reply, ...and out of curiosity, do you have answers for any of those questions? (I don't mean to pressure you to answer, that of course is your decision... but I felt they were honest questions, and would appreciate any answers you might have, or be willing to offer -- Thanks!)

I have more questions below and offer them to you, or anyone else in the discussion, for answers...  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: trettep on July 21, 2009, 02:24:21 AM
Well this is definately one of our major divides.  I can't comprend that God is the Spirit of Death and of Life.

I have not claimed GOD as the "spirit of death"...He IS LIFE... but also is the creator of ALL THINGS, one of which is DEATH... He designed what it is, and how it is brought about, and HE alone decides when it occurs in each of us, for our days are NUMBERED by HIM...  And DEATH, as well as EVIL, have their place in the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... The fact remains the GOD's WORD is LIFE, but also contained within it is the reality of DEATH...  :dontknow:

If GOD did not bring forth the concept and REALITY of DEATH, who did?  :dunno:

If you answer this post, I would love your answer to that question!  :cloud9:

Quote from: trettep on July 21, 2009, 02:24:21 AMFor the Spirit of death shares its nature with temptation and sin - which God claims to not do.  I therefore cannot reconcile that with your beliefs.

I did not say that GOD participates in SIN and TEMPTATION, but the question remains -- Who defined what SIN and TEMPTATION are Paul?  For that matter, who determined what DEATH is?  How did it get into our scenario?  Why was DEATH required to SAVE us?

In my observation of the WORD, ...The FOREKNOWLEDGE of GOD determines length of each life, each beginning and end... for CHRIST is both (alpha AND omega)... He is LIFE as well as its beginning and end...  ALL THINGS emerge from Him and all things find their end in Him as well...

As I said bro... It is not on my agenda to change you in any way... I am quite divided from ET believers, TRINITARIAN believers, HELL believers, FREE WILL believers, FALLEN ANGEL believers, ...etc, ...but it does not keep me from praying for them, nor from considering them brothers and fellow CHILDREN of YHVH... So do I consider you as well, brother...  :friendstu:  As I see it, ...disagreement is not the basis for division... it is the basis for further study...

I just do not see how anyone considers that ANYTHING that exists, is not emergent from GOD, and that He has purpose in the existance of EACH of ALL THINGS... including DEATH.

LIFE is the precious commodity that is to be ETERNALLY enjoyed, for all of CREATION has witnessed and been either directly (physical beings) or indirectly (spirit/heavenly beings) affected BY it's enemy which has appeared within TIME -- DEATH...

:Peace:

Quote from: trettep on July 21, 2009, 02:24:21 AM
I can't comprend that God is the Spirit of Death and of Life.

The Bible describes darkness as the absense of light.
The Hebrew word for light also means order. The Hebrew word for darkness also means chaos.
So I think the spirit of death (dark/chaos/sin) does not exist. It's the absense of the spirit of life (light/order/pure)
Death is the absense of life.

QuoteFor the Spirit of death shares its nature with temptation and sin

Agreed

Quote- which God claims to not do.

Not agreed.
"....prepared evil..." and similar verse.
I have more thoughts about that but that will be to much off-topic I think. Plus there is another thread on exactly that subject.
I don't know if it's Biblically correct but the "Our Father" prayer in Dutch has a line: "...do not lead us into tempation..."

  I am a strong believer in the Lord being ''personal''

  till he comes we dont know  as we should ...  great example is , like Job here ..NIV.

Job 42
Job
1 Then Job replied to the LORD :
2 "I know that you can do all things;
       no plan of yours can be thwarted.

3 You asked, 'Who is this that obscures my counsel without knowledge?'
       Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
       things too wonderful for me to know.
4 "You said, 'Listen now, and I will speak;
       I will question you,
       and you shall answer me.'

5 My ears had heard of you
       but now my eyes have seen you.  

6 Therefore I despise myself
       and repent in dust and ashes."

  we , none have a clue , till the Lord God lets us in  on His secrets/mysteries   and shows Himself /Spirit of Truth

   I remember hearing about God when I was real small
but it was just  common talk , till the Lord did come to me  and make it ''very personal''

  I think many folks  take offense /stumble  fall  over certain expressions  that  really  dont amount to a hill of beans lol.. :laughing7:

  the way we express our  ''understanding ''  does often cause divisons

  Matt 11

  4Jesus replied, "Go back and report to John what you hear and see:


5The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy

are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor.

6Blessed is the man who does not fall away on account of me."

  the great falling away is from grace 
and that grace is given to us  individually and  personally as we grow  in truth and grace

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; you are fallen from grace.   
ekpiptō



1601 greek for fallen 

  I think we all must be  carful how we handle the WORD of Life  , judge not or we will find judgment  has come very personally  upon us  :mshock:

:HeartThrob:

Quote from: reFORMer on July 21, 2009, 08:41:45 AM
We fill up where we are, along with God's presence, we take the form of our places.  We are definite in form and unaffected by our circumstances.  We are sons of The Cloud and of The Rock.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it." (Revelation 2:17, AV) 

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." (Revelation 3:12, AV)

We will always be ever increasing in our distinctiveness.  There will be an increasing secret of identity for God and His offspring, and an increasing revelation of that identity.  What made Moses who he was, or Elijah who he was, or Samuel, or Jesus, or John , or Paul...was the Holy Spirit of God.  They are example of how the closer we are to God, the more unique we are and, simultaneously, the more we have in common.  Each of these famous men of God were very different from one another.  Yet, anybody who comes to them finds much about them with which they can identify.

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ." (1 Corinthians 12:12, AV)

The, "Many, are one..." is descriptive of the nature of God.  We are partaking of the Divine nature.  We are Elohim.  "I have said you all are Elohim; all of you, children of El-Elyon." (Psalm 82:6, AV)  Jesus says, "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?  If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken..." (John 10:34-35, AV)  God may be thought of as a vast family of like beings born of Him. Being of the same nature, all are in fellowship with one another.  This the God Who is Love has purposed and will accomplish.  "And we shall reign in all the earth." (Revelation 5:12, AV)

:goodpost:  :banana:

Quote from: willieH on July 21, 2009, 10:30:20 AM
willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

I asked you several questions in my last reply, ...and out of curiosity, do you have answers for any of those questions? (I don't mean to pressure you to answer, that of course is your decision... but I felt they were honest questions, and would appreciate any answers you might have, or be willing to offer -- Thanks!)

I have more questions below and offer them to you, or anyone else in the discussion, for answers...  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: trettep on July 21, 2009, 02:24:21 AM
Well this is definately one of our major divides.  I can't comprend that God is the Spirit of Death and of Life.

I have not claimed GOD as the "spirit of death"...He IS LIFE... but also is the creator of ALL THINGS, one of which is DEATH... He designed what it is, and how it is brought about, and HE alone decides when it occurs in each of us, for our days are NUMBERED by HIM...  And DEATH, as well as EVIL, have their place in the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... The fact remains the GOD's WORD is LIFE, but also contained within it is the reality of DEATH...  :dontknow:

If GOD did not bring forth the concept and REALITY of DEATH, who did?  :dunno:

If you answer this post, I would love your answer to that question!  :cloud9:

Quote from: trettep on July 21, 2009, 02:24:21 AMFor the Spirit of death shares its nature with temptation and sin - which God claims to not do.  I therefore cannot reconcile that with your beliefs.

I did not say that GOD participates in SIN and TEMPTATION, but the question remains -- Who defined what SIN and TEMPTATION are Paul?  For that matter, who determined what DEATH is?  How did it get into our scenario?  Why was DEATH required to SAVE us?

In my observation of the WORD, ...The FOREKNOWLEDGE of GOD determines length of each life, each beginning and end... for CHRIST is both (alpha AND omega)... He is LIFE as well as its beginning and end...  ALL THINGS emerge from Him and all things find their end in Him as well...

As I said bro... It is not on my agenda to change you in any way... I am quite divided from ET believers, TRINITARIAN believers, HELL believers, FREE WILL believers, FALLEN ANGEL believers, ...etc, ...but it does not keep me from praying for them, nor from considering them brothers and fellow CHILDREN of YHVH... So do I consider you as well, brother...  :friendstu:  As I see it, ...disagreement is not the basis for division... it is the basis for further study...

I just do not see how anyone considers that ANYTHING that exists, is not emergent from GOD, and that He has purpose in the existance of EACH of ALL THINGS... including DEATH.

LIFE is the precious commodity that is to be ETERNALLY enjoyed, for all of CREATION has witnessed and been either directly (physical beings) or indirectly (spirit/heavenly beings) affected BY it's enemy which has appeared within TIME -- DEATH...

:Peace:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Hi brother Willie.  I didn't mean to avoid your questions.  I thought my statement was just getting to the core of our disagreement.  But regarding who created Death, God did.  But God uses Death for GOOD in bringing about Life.  But again, God will be only ALL in ALL once all is subdued.  Until then God isn't all in all.  Therefore, there must be something that are not in God.  God created sin also by creating the law.  So you tell me - does that mean that God sins?

Paul

 

   I speak to the Lord God when I am in the garden picking green beans 
or mowing the lawn or in the shower
  that seems kind of personal to me  :winkgrin:
  :icon_flower:

  but I can see what your saying that so many  think that only they have this  great link to God and use it as an excuse to  EXCLUDE  many others who desire to Know God
  like Jesus telling them about not going into it  themselves but hinder them that would go into it /kingdom


Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. 

Quote from: rosered on July 21, 2009, 09:08:06 PM


   I speak to the Lord God when I am in the garden picking green beans 
or mowing the lawn or in the shower
  that seems kind of personal to me  :winkgrin:
  :icon_flower:

  but I can see what your saying that so many  think that only they have this  great link to God and use it as an excuse to  EXCLUDE  many others who desire to Know God
  like Jesus telling them about not going into it  themselves but hinder them that would go into it /kingdom


Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. 

Yes, great example.  They made it an eligibility contest.  That to me is what many of those faiths that adhere to this "personal savior" theology seem to do as well.

Paul

willieH: Hi Paul...  :cloud9:

Thanks for your answer bro...  :friendstu:

The following is not arguement, so please don't take it as such...  :cloud9:

Quote from: trettep on July 21, 2009, 07:57:05 PM
Hi brother Willie.  I didn't mean to avoid your questions.  I thought my statement was just getting to the core of our disagreement.

I don't look at it that way... it is up to you whether or not you wish to answer my questions... but if no answers are forthcoming (as I choose to believe), you are still on the "jury is still out" program concerning that question...  :dontknow:

Quote from: trettep on July 21, 2009, 07:57:05 PMBut regarding who created Death, God did.  But God uses Death for GOOD in bringing about Life.

I completely agree, GOD is using ALL THINGS for GOOD... for that is the ultimate destiny of ALL THINGS for ALL THINGS find themselves emergent from and concluding IN, CHRIST as is noted in Col 1:16-20

DEATH is the contrast of LIFE Paul... It is the "down of up" or the "inside of outside"  :dontknow:

Quote from: trettep on July 21, 2009, 07:57:05 PMBut again, God will be only ALL in ALL once all is subdued. Until then God isn't all in all.

Before I get further into this, "until then" and "once" are TIME oriented terminology which is NOT APPLICABLE to the ETERNAL, which WAS BEFORE it ...and SHALL, EXCEED it... :yes:

I have TWO things in particular, with which I find disagreement...

(1) GOD does NOT CHANGE -- Mal 3:6 --  neither does CHRIST -- Heb 13:8 -- so what they ARE, they ALWAYS ARE...  When or AS something "BECOMES" something it was not... CHANGE is found.  If GOD must wait upon TIME to elapse in order to "BE" ALL in ALL, then He BECOMES something that He was NOT before TIME was created, which encases a CHANGE in Him.  This is LIMITED vision (finite) of the ONE which CHANGES NOT (infinite)...

Also... it proposes that GOD, who IS -- ALREADY ETERNALLY PERFECT, "became" something He was NOT.  Which means that He was NOT COMPLETE (PERFECT)... I cannot agree with this thinking, but you are welcome to it if you choose.

(2) "Subdued" has to do with the consumation of TIME and all things WITHIN TIME, ...NOT the ETERNAL state which NEVER CHANGES in either the WORD of GOD or the Father. 

Observing TIME from a FINITE viewpoint, all things are NOT subdued within it, but GOD notes TIME COMPLETELY from END to BEGINNING, calling things that ARE NOT as though they WERE...

In other words... The ETERNAL is not dependent upon the doings of TIME... it is just another "bass-ackwards" view of men that think the ETERNAL is subject to TIME... when the complete opposite is true.  Again, you are welcome to hold this as your belief bro, ...not me.

Quote from: trettep on July 21, 2009, 07:57:05 PMTherefore, there must be something that are not in God.

Sorry bro, ...GOD is a COMPLETE entity... NOTHING is outside of HIM or HIS KNOWLEDGE.

ALL THINGS were made by Him and FOR HIM, whether they be things in Heaven or in Earth, VISIBLE, INVISIBLE, all powers, principalities, etc -- Col 1:16-17 -- NOTHING escapes the term ALL THINGS, and  has "being" outside of this notation...   Believe what you will...

Quote from: trettep on July 21, 2009, 07:57:05 PMGod created sin also by creating the law.  So you tell me - does that mean that God sins?

NO... Creating the scenario, necessitates its opposite to be simultaneously, ...in order to find definition.  Because GOD created EVIL and within that creation, defined what its practice would be called (SIN) and that the practice of it would result in DEATH, only serves to MAGNIFY Purity, and LIFE... 

Name ONE "THING" which has NO OPPOSITE brother P...  :dontknow:

DEATH and SIN and EVIL were "created" (emerged from God), to MAGNIFY LIFE, LOVE and GOOD... the KNOWLEDGE is rooted in the SAME TREE which is GOD...

GOD is LOVE, and the experience of what is OPPOSITE LOVE must be had in order to KNOW IT, and what it IS... part of that "experience" is to behold via experience, ITS OPPOSITE... and all associated elements of ITS OPPOSITE (such as sin, death, hatred, disease, war, sorrow, etc)

Again, I truly meant this answer in the spirit of love and brotherhood...  :friendstu:

Quote from: willieH on July 21, 2009, 10:43:26 PM
willieH: Hi Paul...  :cloud9:

Thanks for your answer bro...  :friendstu:

The following is not arguement, so please don't take it as such...  :cloud9:

Quote from: trettep on July 21, 2009, 07:57:05 PM
Hi brother Willie.  I didn't mean to avoid your questions.  I thought my statement was just getting to the core of our disagreement.

I don't look at it that way... it is up to you whether or not you wish to answer my questions... but if no answers are forthcoming (as I choose to believe), you are still on the "jury is still out" program concerning that question...  :dontknow:

Quote from: trettep on July 21, 2009, 07:57:05 PMBut regarding who created Death, God did.  But God uses Death for GOOD in bringing about Life.

I completely agree, GOD is using ALL THINGS for GOOD... for that is the ultimate destiny of ALL THINGS for ALL THINGS find themselves emergent from and concluding IN, CHRIST as is noted in Col 1:16-20

DEATH is the contrast of LIFE Paul... It is the "down of up" or the "inside of outside"  :dontknow:

Quote from: trettep on July 21, 2009, 07:57:05 PMBut again, God will be only ALL in ALL once all is subdued. Until then God isn't all in all.

Before I get further into this, "until then" and "once" are TIME oriented terminology which is NOT APPLICABLE to the ETERNAL, which WAS BEFORE it ...and SHALL, EXCEED it... :yes:

I have TWO things in particular, with which I find disagreement...

(1) GOD does NOT CHANGE -- Mal 3:6 --  neither does CHRIST -- Heb 13:8 -- so what they ARE, they ALWAYS ARE...  When or AS something "BECOMES" something it was not... CHANGE is found.  If GOD must wait upon TIME to elapse in order to "BE" ALL in ALL, then He BECOMES something that He was NOT before TIME was created, which encases a CHANGE in Him.  This is LIMITED vision (finite) of the ONE which CHANGES NOT (infinite)...

Also... it proposes that GOD, who IS -- ALREADY ETERNALLY PERFECT, "became" something He was NOT.  Which means that He was NOT COMPLETE (PERFECT)... I cannot agree with this thinking, but you are welcome to it if you choose.

(2) "Subdued" has to do with the consumation of TIME and all things WITHIN TIME, ...NOT the ETERNAL state which NEVER CHANGES in either the WORD of GOD or the Father. 

Observing TIME from a FINITE viewpoint, all things are NOT subdued within it, but GOD notes TIME COMPLETELY from END to BEGINNING, calling things that ARE NOT as though they WERE...

In other words... The ETERNAL is not dependent upon the doings of TIME... it is just another "bass-ackwards" view of men that think the ETERNAL is subject to TIME... when the complete opposite is true.  Again, you are welcome to hold this as your belief bro, ...not me.

Quote from: trettep on July 21, 2009, 07:57:05 PMTherefore, there must be something that are not in God.

Sorry bro, ...GOD is a COMPLETE entity... NOTHING is outside of HIM or HIS KNOWLEDGE.

ALL THINGS were made by Him and FOR HIM, whether they be things in Heaven or in Earth, VISIBLE, INVISIBLE, all powers, principalities, etc -- Col 1:16-17 -- NOTHING escapes the term ALL THINGS, and  has "being" outside of this notation...   Believe what you will...

Quote from: trettep on July 21, 2009, 07:57:05 PMGod created sin also by creating the law.  So you tell me - does that mean that God sins?

NO... Creating the scenario, necessitates its opposite to be simultaneously, ...in order to find definition.  Because GOD created EVIL and within that creation, defined what its practice would be called (SIN) and that the practice of it would result in DEATH, only serves to MAGNIFY Purity, and LIFE... 

Name ONE "THING" which has NO OPPOSITE brother P...  :dontknow:

DEATH and SIN and EVIL were "created" (emerged from God), to MAGNIFY LIFE, LOVE and GOOD... the KNOWLEDGE is rooted in the SAME TREE which is GOD...

GOD is LOVE, and the experience of what is OPPOSITE LOVE must be had in order to KNOW IT, and what it IS... part of that "experience" is to behold via experience, ITS OPPOSITE... and all associated elements of ITS OPPOSITE (such as sin, death, hatred, disease, war, sorrow, etc)

Again, I truly meant this answer in the spirit of love and brotherhood...  :friendstu:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

See Willie, this is my problem.  You say that God is everything and yet go on to say that God doesn't sin.   As for the verse you mentioned concerning God not changing (Mal 3:6) - I believe this is a reference to His Divine nature.  It doesn't change to that which is oppose that nature.  You are saying that time wouldn't change this and I agree.  However, you use that as an argument that God would be "changing" if the subjection takes place at a point in time.  That is NOT true in my opinion.  I believe the reference to God changing of Mal 3:6 is a direct reference to His Spirit (divine nature) and that it in no way changes whether or not subjection takes place at some point in time.  There is no change indicate to the Spirit or nature of God if subjection occurs at any point in time.  And Time does exist for God gave us Time and its measurements.  I believe that "Eternity" is just another measurement.  For example, we have the day, we have the week.  A week may contain the days but it is still a measurement of time.  The month contains weeks, and years contain months, etc..  until we reach the point that Eternity contains....  Eternity is just the measurement at the top of the Time container.  That is how I see it Willie.

Paul

Self-sustaining is God.


Everything else was created.

willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

In peace do I intend this answer bro...

Quote from: trettep on July 21, 2009, 11:27:37 PM
See Willie, this is my problem.  You say that God is everything and yet go on to say that God doesn't sin.

I did not say "He is everything"... I said HE CREATED ALL THINGS, ...WORKS ALL THINGS, and ALL THINGS conclude IN HIM...

If I KNOW what WET is, and wish my BODY to know what WET is, so I DIP my BODY in the WATER, did my "spirit" or "soul" get "wet" Paul?

Quote from: trettep on July 21, 2009, 11:27:37 PMAs for the verse you mentioned concerning God not changing (Mal 3:6) - I believe this is a reference to His Divine nature.

The verse DOES NOT SAY:  "I am YHVH -- My divine nature -- CHANGES NOT"...

It DOES SAY:

Mal 3:6 -- For I am YHVH, ...I CHANGE NOT...  (no further commentary concerning "what" does "NOT CHANGE"... No notations except by THOSE who propose ADDITION/speculation to what IS NOT spoken/written, in the verse.)

Quote from: trettep on July 21, 2009, 11:27:37 PMIt doesn't change to that which is oppose that nature.  You are saying that time wouldn't change this and I agree.  However, you use that as an argument that God would be "changing" if the subjection takes place at a point in time.  That is NOT true in my opinion.

Paul... examine what you have just said... ETERNITY preceeded TIME, did it not?  And you are proposing that in order for GOD to be COMPLETE and ALL in ALL, it required that He create TIME?  So much as alluding to necessitating US and our doings, in order to be COMPLETE?

You also propose that IN ETERNITY (which has NO beginning or end)... that He was IN THIS WAY (all IN all), ...INCOMPLETE... (or as some might say IMPERFECT, for the true meaning of PERFECT is COMPLETE without FLAW)

PERFECTION does not require any alterations... yet you propose that GOD needed TIME (and the evil doings of men) in order to be COMPLETE and was therefore, concerning ALL, ...INCOMPLETE...   :mshock:

Quote from: trettep on July 21, 2009, 11:27:37 PMI believe the reference to God changing of Mal 3:6 is a direct reference to His Spirit (divine nature) and that it in no way changes whether or not subjection takes place at some point in time.

Regardless of what you BELIEVE, which is OUTSIDE what is stated (requiring INSERTION of your BELIEF, in order to be WHAT YOU PROPOSE -- i.e. specifiying "divine nature")... and therefore your BELIEF implies that the WORD of GOD is also INCOMPLETE, for it "left out" the designation "divine nature"...  :dontknow:

And is "in need" of your INSERTED designation of "divine nature" in order to be properly understood? :omg:

Quote from: trettep on July 21, 2009, 11:27:37 PMThere is no change indicate to the Spirit or nature of God if subjection occurs at any point in time.  And Time does exist for God gave us Time and its measurements.  I believe that "Eternity" is just another measurement.

And what do you propose as the "MEASUREMENT" of ETERNITY Paul?  To "measure" is to find LIMITATION... for a measure of something, concerns the limits, dimension or content of that which is MEASURED... 

[from Merrium-Webster]

Main Entry: 1mea·sure   
Pronunciation: \ˈme-zhər, ˈmā-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English mesure, from Anglo-French, from Latin mensura, from mensus, past participle of metiri to measure; akin to Old English mǣth measure, Greek metron
Date: 13th century
1 a (1): an adequate or due portion (2): a moderate degree ; also : moderation, temperance (3): a fixed or suitable limit : bounds <rich beyond measure> b: the dimensions, capacity, or amount of something ascertained by measuring c: an estimate of what is to be expected (as of a person or situation) d (1): a measured quantity (2): amount, degree
2 a: an instrument or utensil for measuring b (1): a standard or unit of measurement — see weight table (2): a system of standard units of measure <metric measure>
3: the act or process of measuring
4 a (1): melody, tune (2): dance ; especially : a slow and stately dance b: rhythmic structure or movement : cadence : as (1): poetic rhythm measured by temporal quantity or accent ; specifically : meter (2): musical time c (1): a grouping of a specified number of musical beats located between two consecutive vertical lines on a staff (2): a metrical unit : foot
5: an exact divisor of a number
6: a basis or standard of comparison <wealth is not a measure of happiness>
7: a step planned or taken as a means to an end ; specifically : a proposed legislative act
— for good measure : in addition to the minimum required : as an extra

IMO (no offense bro), you are wandering WAY off the pathway with this...

(1) you add your belief to what is stated in -- Mal 3:6 -- implying it to be as YOU see it, reading "between the lines" what is NOT THERE...

(2) you propose that GOD needed to create TIME in order to BE something IN ETERNITY that He was not... implying He needed some SELF alteration which TIME availed to Him

(3) now you propose that ETERNITY which has no limitation, is a MEASURED entity!  Please!  How can the INFINTITE be measured?  How can INNUMERABLE be numbered? :dunno:  This is an ILLOGICAL proposal bro...

Quote from: trettep on July 21, 2009, 11:27:37 PMFor example, we have the day, we have the week.  A week may contain the days but it is still a measurement of time.  The month contains weeks, and years contain months, etc..  until we reach the point that Eternity contains....  Eternity is just the measurement at the top of the Time container.  That is how I see it Willie.

Until?  What did "until" have to do with the ETERNAL before "until's" were brought forth from it?

Therein lies your problem bro (IMO)... You think TIME which was NOT (for it was created from GOD who resides in ETERNITY) while ETERNITY just, IS... And then propose to MEASURE Eternity with TIME... when it PRECEEDED it and is ENDLESSLY, BEGINNINGLESSLY -- before and after it!

ETERNITY does something like this: 

You just said --  "for example we have the day, we have the week... a week may contain days..."

ETERNITY takes your concept and TURNS it INSIDE OUT -- and says a DAY may contain WEEKS! 

For ALL GENERATIONS -- Gen 2:4 -- appear in the "DAY" God created them... so all "WEEKS" which are found in TIME are contained in the DAY of GOD and His creation of them...

Gen 2:4 -- THESE [plural] are the GENERATIONS [plural] of the heavens and the earth WHEN THEY [plural] were created, ...IN THE DAY... that YHVH made the earth and the heavens...

What many fail to see is that GOD created the heavens and the earth in 6 DAYS (time) but FINISHED His work in those SIX DAYS of TIME, within HIS DAY which is ETERNITY...

Gen 2:1 -- Thus the heavens and the earth were FINISHED, ...and... ALL the HOST of them... (btw, the word "HOST" is a notation of a "mass of persons awaiting a WAR")

You see Paul (or maybe not), ...the Creation of ALL THINGS was done from ETERNITY and was FINISHED COMPLETELY at the conclusion of the 6th DAY of TIME...

Though the Creation story is yet UNFOLDING in what we observe from a finite vision as: TIME... was COMPLETED in ETERNITY before 1 second of TIME elapsed on earth...

There is a great reason for the 7th Day... and that it is DEVOID of "evening and morning" for those depict beginning and end... as well as it was the only entity called a DAY which was BLESSED and made HOLY... for the 6 days of TIME contained EVIL and SIN... the 7th DAY is the SABBATH, over which CHRIST claimed as His own and LORDSHIP... and HE is the BLESSING of HOLINESS that God showered upon the SABBATH... for in the WORD of GOD, do ALL THINGS find beginning and end...

You see Paul (or maybe not)... the CREATION is yet progressing concerning TIME... until it CONCLUDES (which it shall)... and it shall find that conclusion in the SABBATH which IS CHRIST... for ALL THINGS begin and end in Him (alpha/omega), that HAVE beginnings and endings... which are, ...ALL THINGS within TIME... (John 1:1-3 -- Rev 1:8)

There is much more to this, but I'll leave these thoughts with you for now... TIME is  but a drop of water (used to teach the Children the "knowledge") amidst the endless OCEAN of ETERNITY... surrounded on ALL SIDES by that OCEAN which, unlike the "DROP" has no limitation, duration or quantity.

:Peace:

Quote from: willieH on July 22, 2009, 12:45:00 AM
willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

In peace do I intend this answer bro...

Quote from: trettep on July 21, 2009, 11:27:37 PM
See Willie, this is my problem.  You say that God is everything and yet go on to say that God doesn't sin.

I did not say "He is everything"... I said HE CREATED ALL THINGS, ...WORKS ALL THINGS, and ALL THINGS conclude IN HIM...

If I KNOW what WET is, and wish my BODY to know what WET is, so I DIP my BODY in the WATER, did my "spirit" or "soul" get "wet" Paul?

Quote from: trettep on July 21, 2009, 11:27:37 PMAs for the verse you mentioned concerning God not changing (Mal 3:6) - I believe this is a reference to His Divine nature.

The verse DOES NOT SAY:  "I am YHVH -- My divine nature -- CHANGES NOT"...

It DOES SAY:

Mal 3:6 -- For I am YHVH, ...I CHANGE NOT...  (no further commentary concerning "what" does "NOT CHANGE"... No notations except by THOSE who propose ADDITION/speculation to what IS NOT spoken/written, in the verse.)

Quote from: trettep on July 21, 2009, 11:27:37 PMIt doesn't change to that which is oppose that nature.  You are saying that time wouldn't change this and I agree.  However, you use that as an argument that God would be "changing" if the subjection takes place at a point in time.  That is NOT true in my opinion.

Paul... examine what you have just said... ETERNITY preceeded TIME, did it not?  And you are proposing that in order for GOD to be COMPLETE and ALL in ALL, it required that He create TIME?  So much as alluding to necessitating US and our doings, in order to be COMPLETE?

You also propose that IN ETERNITY (which has NO beginning or end)... that He was IN THIS WAY (all IN all), ...INCOMPLETE... (or as some might say IMPERFECT, for the true meaning of PERFECT is COMPLETE without FLAW)

PERFECTION does not require any alterations... yet you propose that GOD needed TIME (and the evil doings of men) in order to be COMPLETE and was therefore, concerning ALL, ...INCOMPLETE...   :mshock:

Quote from: trettep on July 21, 2009, 11:27:37 PMI believe the reference to God changing of Mal 3:6 is a direct reference to His Spirit (divine nature) and that it in no way changes whether or not subjection takes place at some point in time.

Regardless of what you BELIEVE, which is OUTSIDE what is stated (requiring INSERTION of your BELIEF, in order to be WHAT YOU PROPOSE -- i.e. specifiying "divine nature")... and therefore your BELIEF implies that the WORD of GOD is also INCOMPLETE, for it "left out" the designation "divine nature"...  :dontknow:

And is "in need" of your INSERTED designation of "divine nature" in order to be properly understood? :omg:

Quote from: trettep on July 21, 2009, 11:27:37 PMThere is no change indicate to the Spirit or nature of God if subjection occurs at any point in time.  And Time does exist for God gave us Time and its measurements.  I believe that "Eternity" is just another measurement.

And what do you propose as the "MEASUREMENT" of ETERNITY Paul?  To "measure" is to find LIMITATION... for a measure of something, concerns the limits, dimension or content of that which is MEASURED... 

[from Merrium-Webster]

Main Entry: 1mea·sure   
Pronunciation: \ˈme-zhər, ˈmā-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English mesure, from Anglo-French, from Latin mensura, from mensus, past participle of metiri to measure; akin to Old English mǣth measure, Greek metron
Date: 13th century
1 a (1): an adequate or due portion (2): a moderate degree ; also : moderation, temperance (3): a fixed or suitable limit : bounds <rich beyond measure> b: the dimensions, capacity, or amount of something ascertained by measuring c: an estimate of what is to be expected (as of a person or situation) d (1): a measured quantity (2): amount, degree
2 a: an instrument or utensil for measuring b (1): a standard or unit of measurement — see weight table (2): a system of standard units of measure <metric measure>
3: the act or process of measuring
4 a (1): melody, tune (2): dance ; especially : a slow and stately dance b: rhythmic structure or movement : cadence : as (1): poetic rhythm measured by temporal quantity or accent ; specifically : meter (2): musical time c (1): a grouping of a specified number of musical beats located between two consecutive vertical lines on a staff (2): a metrical unit : foot
5: an exact divisor of a number
6: a basis or standard of comparison <wealth is not a measure of happiness>
7: a step planned or taken as a means to an end ; specifically : a proposed legislative act
— for good measure : in addition to the minimum required : as an extra

IMO (no offense bro), you are wandering WAY off the pathway with this...

(1) you add your belief to what is stated in -- Mal 3:6 -- implying it to be as YOU see it, reading "between the lines" what is NOT THERE...

(2) you propose that GOD needed to create TIME in order to BE something IN ETERNITY that He was not... implying He needed some SELF alteration which TIME availed to Him

(3) now you propose that ETERNITY which has no limitation, is a MEASURED entity!  Please!  How can the INFINTITE be measured?  How can INNUMERABLE be numbered? :dunno:  This is an ILLOGICAL proposal bro...

Quote from: trettep on July 21, 2009, 11:27:37 PMFor example, we have the day, we have the week.  A week may contain the days but it is still a measurement of time.  The month contains weeks, and years contain months, etc..  until we reach the point that Eternity contains....  Eternity is just the measurement at the top of the Time container.  That is how I see it Willie.

Until?  What did "until" have to do with the ETERNAL before "until's" were brought forth from it?

Therein lies your problem bro (IMO)... You think TIME which was NOT (for it was created from GOD who resides in ETERNITY) while ETERNITY just, IS... And then propose to MEASURE Eternity with TIME... when it PRECEEDED it and is ENDLESSLY, BEGINNINGLESSLY -- before and after it!

ETERNITY does something like this: 

You just said --  "for example we have the day, we have the week... a week may contain days..."

ETERNITY takes your concept and TURNS it INSIDE OUT -- and says a DAY may contain WEEKS! 

For ALL GENERATIONS -- Gen 2:4 -- appear in the "DAY" God created them... so all "WEEKS" which are found in TIME are contained in the DAY of GOD and His creation of them...

Gen 2:4 -- THESE [plural] are the GENERATIONS [plural] of the heavens and the earth WHEN THEY [plural] were created, ...IN THE DAY... that YHVH made the earth and the heavens...

What many fail to see is that GOD created the heavens and the earth in 6 DAYS (time) but FINISHED His work in those SIX DAYS of TIME, within HIS DAY which is ETERNITY...

Gen 2:1 -- Thus the heavens and the earth were FINISHED, ...and... ALL the HOST of them... (btw, the word "HOST" is a notation of a "mass of persons awaiting a WAR")

You see Paul (or maybe not), ...the Creation of ALL THINGS was done from ETERNITY and was FINISHED COMPLETELY at the conclusion of the 6th DAY of TIME...

Though the Creation story is yet UNFOLDING in what we observe from a finite vision as: TIME... was COMPLETED in ETERNITY before 1 second of TIME elapsed on earth...

There is a great reason for the 7th Day... and that it is DEVOID of "evening and morning" for those depict beginning and end... as well as it was the only entity called a DAY which was BLESSED and made HOLY... for the 6 days of TIME contained EVIL and SIN... the 7th DAY is the SABBATH, over which CHRIST claimed as His own and LORDSHIP... and HE is the BLESSING of HOLINESS that God showered upon the SABBATH... for in the WORD of GOD, do ALL THINGS find beginning and end...

You see Paul (or maybe not)... the CREATION is yet progressing concerning TIME... until it CONCLUDES (which it shall)... and it shall find that conclusion in the SABBATH which IS CHRIST... for ALL THINGS begin and end in Him (alpha/omega), that HAVE beginnings and endings... which are, ...ALL THINGS within TIME... (John 1:1-3 -- Rev 1:8)

There is much more to this, but I'll leave these thoughts with you for now... TIME is  but a drop of water (used to teach the Children the "knowledge") amidst the endless OCEAN of ETERNITY... surrounded on ALL SIDES by that OCEAN which, unlike the "DROP" has no limitation, duration or quantity.

:Peace:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Willie, Mal 3:6 says "..I  change not.."  - that is a reference to His "person" which is a reference to His Spirit.  Regarding Eternity, Eternity is the Time container.  Eternity is the span of Time.   

Paul

Quote from: trettep on July 22, 2009, 02:22:50 AM
Willie, Mal 3:6 says "..I  change not.."  - that is a reference to His "person" which is a reference to His Spirit.  Regarding Eternity, Eternity is the Time container.  Eternity is the span of Time.   

God is not in a changeless stasis. Scripture speaks of "...increasing with the increase of God."  His not changing refers to the fact that He doesn't alter in His character attributes. 

Quote from: reFORMer on July 22, 2009, 04:58:06 AM

Quote from: trettep on July 22, 2009, 02:22:50 AM
Willie, Mal 3:6 says "..I  change not.."  - that is a reference to His "person" which is a reference to His Spirit.  Regarding Eternity, Eternity is the Time container.  Eternity is the span of Time.   

God is not in a changeless stasis. Scripture speaks of "...increasing with the increase of God."  His not changing refers to the fact that He doesn't alter in His character attributes. 

Amen  Bro James  ! :icon_flower:


Jam 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.    :HeartThrob:

Quote from: reFORMer on July 22, 2009, 04:58:06 AM

Quote from: trettep on July 22, 2009, 02:22:50 AM
Willie, Mal 3:6 says "..I  change not.."  - that is a reference to His "person" which is a reference to His Spirit.  Regarding Eternity, Eternity is the Time container.  Eternity is the span of Time.   

God is not in a changeless stasis. Scripture speaks of "...increasing with the increase of God."  His not changing refers to the fact that He doesn't alter in His character attributes. 

That is the way I interpret the verse also.

Paul

willieH: Hi Paul...  :cloud9:

Quote from: trettep on July 22, 2009, 02:22:50 AM
Willie, Mal 3:6 says "..I change not.."  - that is a reference to His "person" which is a reference to His Spirit.

Well that can be assumed... no detail is mentioned concerning "I"... so I can neither speculate either way... Because GOD is SPIRIT, I would tend to think it to describe WHATEVER He -- IS -- irregardless of any finite speculations of that self existent position He occupies and what it entails in detail... however:

Without ADDING any speculative detail which is NOT WRITTEN, ..YHVH is what ever He ...IS... in saying "I AM"... and does NOT CHANGE.

Again, I remind you that your previous "ADDITION" -- "Divine nature" is NOT in the text, and neither is this newest proposals -- "His person" or "His SPIRIT"... which are both absent in the TEXT as well...  :dontknow:

I maintain, that whatever detail completely notes (which "detail" is unavailable to us) as to WHAT YHVH ...IS... as a DIVINE and ETERNAL entity... is unmentioned in Mal 3:6

The only thing the text reveals is that whatever that "detail" IS, ...it DOES NOT CHANGE... For He says: 

I am YHVH, I CHANGE, ...NOT.  Anything concerning YHVH according to this statement, simply just does NOT CHANGE... for He simply says ..."I AM"... stating afterward, that what "HE IS" ...does NOT CHANGE... :mnah:

It is simple statement, and any "SELF speculations" only COMPLICATES the issue... and furthermore, violates the Biblical instruction to abstain from ADDING or SUBTRACTING to the WORD.  :dontknow:

Quote from: trettep on July 22, 2009, 02:22:50 AMRegarding Eternity, Eternity is the Time container.  Eternity is the span of Time. 

ETERNITY is indeed a "TIME container" for ALL TIME since it was CREATED is contained within the ETERNAL, ...at "either" of its boundaries of: end and beginning...

Isaiah 46:10 -- Declaring the END from the BEGINNING, and from ancient times, the things that are not yet done [in time], saying My counsel shall stand and I will do all My pleasure...

BEGINNING and END are boundaries and LIMITATIONS, Paul... GOD, preceeding both, made the DECLARATION from a different perspective (ETERNITY) of that which would occur... "beginning" at the "end"...  :laughing7: 

Also, that which would occur during this DECLARATION, would END and BEGIN...  :dontknow:   NOT continue beyond either boundary.

There is no Scripture that says "ETERNITY is a "SPAN of TIME"... (of which I am aware, please enlighten me of it if you are able, bro)...

I hereby challenge you to offer this statement MADE from Scripture...  If you cannot produce this statement in Scripture, then "eternity is a span of time" are YOUR WORDS exclusively and are not proveable by the Scriptures... nor do they find a home within them...

ETERNITY preceed time, and TIME is a stated created entity... for the Creation account notes 1st day, 2nd day etc... ALL TIME in encased in DAYS for it is the primary measure OF IT...

Again, unless you can produce a Scripture which backs your above statement, you are not believing Scripture concerning TIME, ...rather you are believe your own speculations... :pitiful:

:Peace:

willieH: Hi reFORMer & Paul... :hithere:

reFORMer:

Quote from: reFORMer on July 22, 2009, 04:58:06 AM
God is not in a changeless stasis.

I see no Scriptural quotations only your words which make this claim... which are CONTRARY to Mal 3:6 as well as Heb 13:8 and James 1:17

James 1:17 says there are NO VARIABLENESS nor "shadow of TURNING in the FATHER...

Quote from: reFORMer on July 22, 2009, 04:58:06 AMScripture speaks of "...increasing with the increase of God."  His not changing refers to the fact that He doesn't alter in His character attributes. 

"Scripture speaks" WHERE reFormer?  Why did you not state the location of your proposal here?

I found on one site reference to Col 2:19 [ASV] -- is that your quoted reference reFORMer? Why not specify?  Clarity helps us all as we share... just noting "scripture speaks" without noting where it does so, is short of helpful...

If the ASV version of Col 2:19 is your reference, ...it does not suggest any CHANGE in GOD...

It is speaking of the BODY knit and nourished together, INCREASES with the INCREASE [growth] of GOD... It doesn't suggest GOD is changing or GROWING, rather that GOD feeding HIS BODY (men) are changing and GROWING... because of its harmony and the investment of itself in the WORD...  :dontknow:

It is hard to address something which is shaded from notation... so enlighten us as to the location of the verse you allude to... (if that verse is not your reference)

"AS IS", ...this statement certainly does not prove any "CHANGING" taking place in GOD whatsoever... the "increase of GOD" is that which is GIVEN from Him to others... It does not propose an alteration OF HIMSELF in any way... or, of who or what HE IS!

If this IS your verse, and it is taken literally... then GOD is INCREASING... which means He was in a state WHICH was "not enough" and therefore in need of ALTERATION... or is GROWING in some way... that IS NOT the description of something in the state of PERFECTION or COMPLETION!  It is stating something that is LESS and needs to be MORE...  :dontknow:

As it appears to me (without the actual verse to view), what you "quote" above does not note GOD "CHANGING" at all!  It mentions that we INCREASE with the INCREASE recieved of Him... and His WORD, which means WE CHANGE, not Him... Which more aligns with LOGIC and actuality...

PAUL (trettep):

Btw... it doesn't surprise me that you agree with this, brother Paul...  :laughing7:

I'll be waiting on reFormers "revelation", and go from there... Meanwhile, my challenges to YOU remain...

Please note the Scripture which says: "ETERNITY is a SPAN of TIME"... thanks...  :cloud9:

   Hi Willie
   how ya doing bro ?

  I was in agreement  with James
  I  Know that God is love  and love to me never changes , it does actually  endures all things ? 

  Have I somehow missed the boat ? he he he  :mblush:   I am a little confused at this point

  the way I took  James post was  though God never changes , his attributes  do change  working on us  and we  perceive  God as all in All
changes us seeing God differently [Whole complete]



       :HeartThrob:

Quote from: willieH on July 22, 2009, 08:46:22 AM
willieH: Hi Paul...  :cloud9:

Quote from: trettep on July 22, 2009, 02:22:50 AM
Willie, Mal 3:6 says "..I change not.."  - that is a reference to His "person" which is a reference to His Spirit.

Well that can be assumed... no detail is mentioned concerning "I"... so I can neither speculate either way... Because GOD is SPIRIT, I would tend to think it to describe WHATEVER He -- IS -- irregardless of any finite speculations of that self existent position He occupies and what it entails in detail... however:

Without ADDING any speculative detail which is NOT WRITTEN, ..YHVH is what ever He ...IS... in saying "I AM"... and does NOT CHANGE.

Again, I remind you that your previous "ADDITION" -- "Divine nature" is NOT in the text, and neither is this newest proposals -- "His person" or "His SPIRIT"... which are both absent in the TEXT as well...  :dontknow:

I maintain, that whatever detail completely notes (which "detail" is unavailable to us) as to WHAT YHVH ...IS... as a DIVINE and ETERNAL entity... is unmentioned in Mal 3:6

The only thing the text reveals is that whatever that "detail" IS, ...it DOES NOT CHANGE... For He says: 

I am YHVH, I CHANGE, ...NOT.  Anything concerning YHVH according to this statement, simply just does NOT CHANGE... for He simply says ..."I AM"... stating afterward, that what "HE IS" ...does NOT CHANGE... :mnah:

It is simple statement, and any "SELF speculations" only COMPLICATES the issue... and furthermore, violates the Biblical instruction to abstain from ADDING or SUBTRACTING to the WORD.  :dontknow:

Quote from: trettep on July 22, 2009, 02:22:50 AMRegarding Eternity, Eternity is the Time container.  Eternity is the span of Time. 

ETERNITY is indeed a "TIME container" for ALL TIME since it was CREATED is contained within the ETERNAL, ...at "either" of its boundaries of: end and beginning...

Isaiah 46:10 -- Declaring the END from the BEGINNING, and from ancient times, the things that are not yet done [in time], saying My counsel shall stand and I will do all My pleasure...

BEGINNING and END are boundaries and LIMITATIONS, Paul... GOD, preceeding both, made the DECLARATION from a different perspective (ETERNITY) of that which would occur... "beginning" at the "end"...  :laughing7: 

Also, that which would occur during this DECLARATION, would END and BEGIN...  :dontknow:   NOT continue beyond either boundary.

There is no Scripture that says "ETERNITY is a "SPAN of TIME"... (of which I am aware, please enlighten me of it if you are able, bro)...

I hereby challenge you to offer this statement MADE from Scripture...  If you cannot produce this statement in Scripture, then "eternity is a span of time" are YOUR WORDS exclusively and are not proveable by the Scriptures... nor do they find a home within them...

ETERNITY preceed time, and TIME is a stated created entity... for the Creation account notes 1st day, 2nd day etc... ALL TIME in encased in DAYS for it is the primary measure OF IT...

Again, unless you can produce a Scripture which backs your above statement, you are not believing Scripture concerning TIME, ...rather you are believe your own speculations... :pitiful:

:Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Willie, "I" is a reference to the person.  It is YOU that are reading more into that.  "I" would be a nature.  If it was me speaking then "I" would be a reference to my spirit which is a carnal nature.  Since this is God speaking the nature is "DIVINE".  It doesn't have to say specifically "divine nature" or "spirit" that is implied by "I".  It is the meaning of "I" when the "I" is a referring to God.  It isn't speculation. 

Willie, if there is no time there cannot be change, for "change" would require time.  For changes would be measured by some event(s) over time.  So if God thought that Time was not applicable to God then He wouldn't adddress Change but rather Time itself.  But since God addresses Change this is confirmation that Time is in the container of Eternity and that Time itself is an attribute of God.

Paul

Paul you have interesting thoughts about time. I have been considering time lately. I used to think in "timeless" fashion, but I used to think about it (time) as being a physical construct. However, I have begun to see that "time" is simply a measure, as you say. So, perhaps timelessness isn't the thing, but different dimensions of time (ie different ways of experiencing events that happen). I have been wondering if time is simply an ascertaining of that which happened, is happening, or will be happening, where in reality, EVERYTHING is always "now." and that the past is the remembrance of events, and that the future is the anticipation of events. Just some wonderings.

I saw this definition:

time
1) the indefinite progress of existence AND events in the past, present and future REGARDED as a whole
2) time, or an amount of time reckoned by a conventional standard

There is alot of food for thought there. It seems to me that time is really a regard, or a reckoning of events past present and future. The concept of timelessness is something I don't see yet in the scripture, but not that I am not open to seeing it if it is there. One thing that is notable to me is that while Jehovah does not change, Theos ("God") can be added to. I do not see "theos" and "Jehovah" as identical, rather that Jehovah is the "theos" and all other "theos" are false, yet Christ did not consider it robbery to be considered a "theos." Is that what you meant in the distinguishing of "I?"

What's interesting about that is in that both Elohim (the plural) and Jehovah are mentioned in Malachi but Jehovah is the one mentioned as not changing. I'm looking into whether or not "Elohim" (the "we") can change.

Quote from: Seth on July 22, 2009, 08:43:04 PM
Paul you have interesting thoughts about time. I have been considering time lately. I used to think in "timeless" fashion, but I used to think about it (time) as being a physical construct. However, I have begun to see that "time" is simply a measure, as you say. So, perhaps timelessness isn't the thing, but different dimensions of time (ie different ways of experiencing events that happen). I have been wondering if time is simply an ascertaining of that which happened, is happening, or will be happening, where in reality, EVERYTHING is always "now." and that the past is the remembrance of events, and that the future is the anticipation of events. Just some wonderings.

I saw this definition:

time
1) the indefinite progress of existence AND events in the past, present and future REGARDED as a whole
2) time, or an amount of time reckoned by a conventional standard

There is alot of food for thought there. It seems to me that time is really a regard, or a reckoning of events past present and future. The concept of timelessness is something I don't see yet in the scripture, but not that I am not open to seeing it if it is there. One thing that is notable to me is that while Jehovah does not change, Theos ("God") can be added to. I do not see "theos" and "Jehovah" as identical, rather that Jehovah is the "theos" and all other "theos" are false, yet Christ did not consider it robbery to be considered a "theos." Is that what you meant in the distinguishing of "I?"

What's interesting about that is in that both Elohim (the plural) and Jehovah are mentioned in Malachi but Jehovah is the one mentioned as not changing. I'm looking into whether or not "Elohim" (the "we") can change.

The "I" is really a reference to His person.  The best way I can explain this is that a Word is "being".  What I mean it it contains the personhood of God.  If I speak from my mouth about those things that I AM then I am PROVIDING my being by means of my words.  In other words you have the capacity with a likeness of me to take the words that I speak and BECOME me from the personality perspective.  For  example, if you (Seth) told someone else all about who YOU actually are from a personality standpoint then someone else could simply take your words and CONFORM to who YOU are.  But if you have the copyright on that personality then even though someone else copies who YOU actually are by believing in your words and copying your personality they will still be YOU even though someone else is the one performing your personality.  This is EXACTLY how I believe God is giving us His Spirit (Holy Spirit = The "Person" of God).  To me this is the MILK that is needed to understand an unlock so many mysteries in the scriptures.  Recall that Jesus said His Words ARE Spirit.  That is indeed what is being communicated.  It is the Holy Communication whereby we receive the Holy Spirit.

Read what I wrote there again and hopefully a lightbulb goes off and you understand not only what the Holy Spirit is but how it is given and how it is received.

Paul

Paul, just curious as to to your opinion as to why the Bible refers to "elohim" and "Jehovah."

Well, I believe that the Holy Spirit in our mouths speaks of "HE" that is in us. 

QuoteFor  example, if you (Seth) told someone else all about who YOU actually are from a personality standpoint then someone else could simply take your words and CONFORM to who YOU are.

They could only copy what they see, however. It would be external, right? They could only be made like me, if all that is in me was in them. They could not copy me simply by understanding my words, and doing their best to act like me. In order to encompass ALL that I am, I would have to be in them.

Quote from: Seth on July 22, 2009, 09:44:03 PM
Paul, just curious as to to your opinion as to why the Bible refers to "elohim" and "Jehovah."

Well, I believe that the Holy Spirit in our mouths speaks of "HE" that is in us. 

QuoteFor  example, if you (Seth) told someone else all about who YOU actually are from a personality standpoint then someone else could simply take your words and CONFORM to who YOU are.

They could only copy what they see, however. It would be external, right? They could only be made like me, if all that is in me was in them. They could not copy me simply by understanding my words, and doing their best to act like me. In order to encompass ALL that I am, I would have to be in them.

Concerning the names Seth, look to this link for more clarification:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.iii.xxxvi.html

Regarding, the Spirit, if someone knew your spirit (in other words if you communicated to them of your personality) and someone copied your personality they would be inside them also if it was gueniene belief.  If someone truely wants to be you they would copy your personality exactly.  That is what Jesus want us to do.  He wants us to have His mind to copy Him in all ways because He knows by doing so that we are putting on the Holy Spirit.  Of course if we actually do this then what happens to our very own personality? - it is destroyed.  Because we are then no longer exhibiting ourselves but the person whos personality we would be obtaining.  This is exactly how God is destroying US (our "old man").  That the new man (Christ - whos spirit we are to put on) would now be the person in us. 

Is this making any sense.  I can use all the feedback I can get to express this better.

Paul

QuoteIs this making any sense.  I can use all the feedback I can get to express this better.

I think I understand what you're saying, but I don't think 'destroyed' is a good word to use.

Jesus didn't come to destroy us, but to give us abundant life.


Jn 10:10
...that they might have life, and that they might have it more...

" abundantly."
G4053
περισσός
perissos
per-is-sos'
From G4012 (in the sense of beyond); superabundant (in quantity) or superior (in quality); by implication excessive; adverb (with G1537) violently; neuter (as noun) preeminence: - exceeding abundantly above, more abundantly, advantage, exceedingly, very highly, beyond measure, more, superfluous, vehement [-ly].


Everybody in Christiandom seems to miss this message.

QuoteConcerning the names Seth, look to this link for more clarification:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.iii.xxxvi.html

Paul, the definitions provided reveal what I was saying and actually what you were saying: Elohim can be added to - depending on who Jehovah declares to be Elohim or Theos.

QuoteRegarding, the Spirit, if someone knew your spirit (in other words if you communicated to them of your personality) and someone copied your personality they would be inside them also if it was gueniene belief. 

Paul, what I am saying is that nobody can know my spirit simply by me communicating to them, unless I was within them. A spirit is MORE than how someone ACTS, but who they are in THOUGHT, FEELING AND ACTION. Nobody can know my thoughts unless I were in them and they were in me.

They could genuinely, sincerely have faith that they were me, but without me being in them they could NEVER understand who I really am. That is why God needed to be in them so that they could have his mind. Even the Pharisees ACTED righteous, but Christ compared them to whitewashed tombs. God needed to be WITHIN them to cleanse them, and God being within them goes WAY beyond them being able to ascertain words ABOUT God without him making a temple out of their bodies and being IN them.

Remember what Paul said: work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for IT IS GOD IN YOU both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

If God is not IN us, then it really is just playacting and not really him at all, but us having our own righteousness. I don't just attribute good works to God as in him having a copyright. I attribute them to him as in Him actually DOING them through his believers. Did supernatural healing come about simply by copying God, or is he the one DOING it? I think the latter. The former is impossible.

QuoteIf someone truely wants to be you they would copy your personality exactly.

But, nobody can BE someone simply by ACTING like them.

QuoteThat is what Jesus want us to do.  He wants us to have His mind to copy Him in all ways because He knows by doing so that we are putting on the Holy Spirit. 

Right! He wants us to have his MIND. THEN we can act like him. Nobody can BE me without having my mind. They could not simply take my description of my personality and do their best to copy my behavior. They would have to have my MIND.

QuoteOf course if we actually do this then what happens to our very own personality? - it is destroyed. 

I don't take the old man being destroyed to be the removal of our sentience, and I don't think the NT writers did either. They always talked in the "I" sense and ADDED that God was controlling them. The old man was our old way of being and thinking, and feeling.

I think you are communicating your beliefs well, just that I don't agree with how you see it. It doesn't mean one is blind and the other is not, just that we don't see eye to eye on that particular issue.

Paul you said that the Holy Spirit is God's communication of himself to us, that we are to copy right? You said something to that degree in another conversation, so I am paraphrasing.

But where is his home base of communication? Where is his temple?

 :cloud9: Seth.......just something for your consideration since you're thinking on time......the Lord spoke to me that, "time is the measurement of death", ie. "something has to die to create time."

He 'died', if you will, by lowering Himself into the creation. We can see time by the changing of the seasons, ie. something dying. Since there is no time in His Spirit, therefore no death in His Spirit, which is life. Blessings....

Quote from: Molly on July 22, 2009, 10:12:04 PM

QuoteIs this making any sense.  I can use all the feedback I can get to express this better.

I think I understand what you're saying, but I don't think 'destroyed' is a good word to use.

Jesus didn't come to destroy us, but to give us abundant life.


Jn 10:10
...that they might have life, and that they might have it more...

" abundantly."
G4053
περισσός
perissos
per-is-sos'
From G4012 (in the sense of beyond); superabundant (in quantity) or superior (in quality); by implication excessive; adverb (with G1537) violently; neuter (as noun) preeminence: - exceeding abundantly above, more abundantly, advantage, exceedingly, very highly, beyond measure, more, superfluous, vehement [-ly].


Everybody in Christiandom seems to miss this message.

He gives life by destroying your death.  Your own spirit is death.  It has to be destroyed.


Gal 2:18  For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

Notice that even Paul says they are destroyed.

We are all just stones in the old temple that must be cast down and destroyed for what will stand in its place is the New Temple.

Paul

Quote from: Seth on July 22, 2009, 10:41:56 PM
Paul you said that the Holy Spirit is God's communication of himself to us, that we are to copy right? You said something to that degree in another conversation, so I am paraphrasing.

But where is his home base of communication? Where is his temple?

I thought you already made up your mind that the Spirit was not communication?  Jesus is the one that said it was Communication - Jesus said His Words are Spirit and they are life:

Joh 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

His Temple is in hearts of flesh.

Paul

Quote from: trettep on July 22, 2009, 11:57:47 PM
I thought you already made up your mind that the Spirit was not communication?  Jesus is the one that said it was Communication - Jesus said His Words are Spirit and they are life:

Joh 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

His Temple is in hearts of flesh.

Paul

What I said is that, YOU say it is communication. And, hypothetically if so, the communication is happening from within us.

Jesus said his words are spirit. God is spirit. Is God Himself simply the vocalization of words by the human throat and mouth? Do you see that when Christ says "my words are spirit and they are life" he is referring to Himself and that he was speaking to an audience who were not supposed to understand him? Christ was talking about the promise of "Christ in you the hope of glory."

Christ said: I am the life. He said that his word is spirit because HE was the Word made flesh, speaking the truth, which again HE is. His words SPOKE OF the Spirit which is HIM. I doubt we are too far off in agreeing on that.

You said, "His temple is in hearts of flesh." His temple is you.

willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

Paul... the ETERNAL fact is that GOD ...IS... All IN All... and that FACT is being "revealed" in TIME... you just don't (at this moment) see it... TIME does not avail GOD to BECOME anything... HE IS what HE IS... always has been, always will be...

Time is a FINITE entity in which ETERNAL revelation takes place... when the ETERNAL is revealed (CHRIST and that GOD IS ALL IN ALL), then TIME is no longer necessary, for that WHICH is PERFECT is come... and thereby that which is IMPERFECT (time and ALL within it) is done away... that you do not see this now, is okay with me...

My observance of you is that you are a seeker of truth... and mark my words, you WILL discover this one day...  :cloud9:

That said bro, here is my reply to you:

Quote from: trettep on July 22, 2009, 08:26:43 PM
Willie, "I" is a reference to the person.

To begin with bro... "I" is actually a reference to a BEING -- when the word "AM" is applied to it...

It calls attention to an entity that "IS"... it does not indicate that the entity is a "person" even though I do agree that it is indicative of His person (essence)... and that "His PERSON" (essence) ...IS... is actually the point.  For "His essence" encases ALL that He IS (in ETERNAL perspective)... one of which IS, that He IS ALL in ALL...

A "person" is not indicated in this text, ...rather is assumed (Although Heb 1:3 notes Him to be a "person" it more refers to His ESSENCE).

Even if you carry on with the assumption that "His person" is that which is addressed in this verse, then "His person" is that which DOES NOT CHANGE...  :dontknow:

He is MORE than a person, for WE, are "persons" and what HE IS, is much more than we can suppose ourselves to BE... the word PERSON in Heb 1:3 actually means ESSENCE, look it up if you will -- :dontknow:

Concerning YHVH's reference to Himself saying: "I AM"... in Mal 3:6...

A DOG "is" ("am")... but in the dogs existing LIFE, it is not considered a "PERSON"...

A recorded song "is", but is NOT a "PERSON"... that "something/anything" is indicated as BEING, does not mean that that "something" which is noted EXISTING (as in "I AM"),  indicate a "person"...  A trash can IS a trash can, and IS full of trash, without either the trash can or the trash being a "person"...

My point being that in this text, the word "I" does not indicate a person, nor does the word "AM"  indicate it... it simply summarizes ALL that YHVH, ...IS... and that that "ALL" that HE IS, does NOT CHANGE.

Quote from: trettep on July 22, 2009, 08:26:43 PMIt is YOU that are reading more into that.

How can you say that bro?  I am asserting that Mal 3:6 -- SAYS what IT SAYS... that Mal 3:6 includes ALL that YHVH IS, in stating "I AM" -- YHVH... does NOT CHANGE...

It is YOU which implies that HE "BECOMES" something ("all in all") that  He "IS" NOT, ...by using the vehicle of TIME to do so!  And further implying that He was, is and will be -- UNABLE to BE "all in all" without that CREATED vehicle!  :mshock:

And the proposal that He "IS" a "person" is limiting Him... He is MUCH MORE than a "person" -- which we, as sinful BEINGS are... I do not deny that He is SINGULAR and that SINGULARITY can be isolated with the term "person", but Him being a "person" it does not ENCASE Him in any way, as it does with us as FINITES...

Quote from: trettep on July 22, 2009, 08:26:43 PM"I" would be a nature.

That is nothing but assumption.

Quote from: trettep on July 22, 2009, 08:26:43 PMIf it was me speaking then "I" would be a reference to my spirit which is a carnal nature.

No... your CARNAL nature PART of you, and is the unsubmitted portion of YOU... the submitted portion of YOU, is still "I", just submitted to the overcoming POWER of CHRIST, which renders inert, the "unsubmitted" portion of YOU.

The reference to "I" does not just entail your nature... it includes your talents, your physical appearance, your intellect, you memory, etc...

The reference the Apostle Paul makes to himself as "I", is no longer the "I" that he was -- Rom 7:17 -- rather he is become the "I" that LIVES in CHRIST... Nevertheless, later in Rom 7 the TWO -- "I's" remain -- Rom 7:25

In our submission to JESUS... we are no longer "we" but "he" (CHRIST)... yet reference is still made to BOTH when we refer to ourselves as "I"... For the WAR continues to rage within...  :dontknow:

Quote from: trettep on July 22, 2009, 08:26:43 PMSince this is God speaking the nature is "DIVINE".  It doesn't have to say specifically "divine nature" or "spirit" that is implied by "I".  It is the meaning of "I" when the "I" is a referring to God.  It isn't speculation.

"Implied" by YOU, not by the TEXT...

Paul  you are convincing yourself of something that is NOT STATED in Mal 3:6  The "nature" of the Divine is the ESSENCE and TOTALITY of WHO and WHAT God ...IS... which DOES NOT CHANGE...

Whatever GOD ...IS... does NOT CHANGE... THAT is what Mal 3:6 ...SAYS...

GOD ...IS... All IN All... His Creation did not bring forth this, it is an ETERNAL FACT... for He CHANGES NOT... and never "becomes" something He WAS NOT...

Quote from: trettep on July 22, 2009, 08:26:43 PMWillie, if there is no time there cannot be change, for "change" would require time.

TIME is needed for US, who are residents of TIME and who DO CHANGE, ...NOT... for YHVH, who is a "resident" of ETERNITY and DOES NOT CHANGE.

Quote from: trettep on July 22, 2009, 08:26:43 PMFor changes would be measured by some event(s) over time.

Again, what ever ETERNITY ...IS... has ALWAYS BEEN... TIME is amidst it... it is not a measure of it, nor has TIME ALWAYS BEEN... for it had a BEGINNING... and shall have an END... in TOTAL, a mere "dot" in the vastness of forever...

Quote from: trettep on July 22, 2009, 08:26:43 PMSo if God thought that Time was not applicable to God then He wouldn't address Change but rather Time itself.  But since God addresses Change this is confirmation that Time is in the container of Eternity and that Time itself is an attribute of God.

No offense my brother, but this is CONSTRUCTED self-deception... TIME is a Creation of GOD, not an ATTRIBUTE...

CHALLENGE #1:  Thus far, even though you have responded to me twice, ...and you have avoided one challenge so far, in that you have not provided the Scripture which notes "ETERNITY is a SPAN of TIME"... are you having trouble locating it?  :Chinscratch:

CHALLENGE #2:  Note the Scripture which says (according to the words you just stated) "TIME itself is an ATTRIBUTE of GOD"  :dontknow:

Paul, ...I believe you to be a sincere believer... but as you speak, you state things that are not SCRIPTURALLY supported... and are centering part of your "sincere belief" around them...  :sigh:

Thus far you have stated TWO (as far as my research has availed) UnScriptural statements (which remain UNSCRIPTURAL until you provide the support IN THEM)... as well as imposing premises upon Mal 3:6 which are NOT present in it... (that Mal 3:6 notes: "divine nature", and indicates that GOD is a "person") ...as well as noting that GOD needed TIME in order to BE -- ALL in ALL -- which belief indicates that He was INCOMPLETE until He created TIME... which also indicates that He was not PERFECT (complete), for He needed TIME to BECOME something He was NOT.

Sorry bro... don't buy it.  :thumbdown:

:Peace:

Quote from: Cardinal on July 22, 2009, 11:51:51 PM
:cloud9: Seth.......just something for your consideration since you're thinking on time......the Lord spoke to me that, "time is the measurement of death", ie. "something has to die to create time."

He 'died', if you will, by lowering Himself into the creation. We can see time by the changing of the seasons, ie. something dying. Since there is no time in His Spirit, therefore no death in His Spirit, which is life. Blessings....

:iagree: :goodpost:

Quote from: Cardinal on July 22, 2009, 11:51:51 PM
:cloud9: Seth.......just something for your consideration since you're thinking on time......the Lord spoke to me that, "time is the measurement of death", ie. "something has to die to create time."

He 'died', if you will, by lowering Himself into the creation. We can see time by the changing of the seasons, ie. something dying. Since there is no time in His Spirit, therefore no death in His Spirit, which is life. Blessings....

Cardinal, thank you for sharing your thoughts. Like I said before, I am still thinking about time and what it really is. I think I had a pre-concieved notion of time according to the Hellenistic influence of Plato, who philosophized about timelessness. In the Christianity I was raised on, I was always told that "time will end" and God is "outside of time." However, the more I read the Bible, the less I saw these things to be declared.

I have begun to see that time is nothing more than remembrance or anticipation of what will be or what will not be. When God says he does not change, that does not in itself suggest timelessness, just that he does not change WITH time.

People often talk about time as though there is some timeline that exists, that we can bounce around in, like Back to the Future, and it is contrasted with Eternity, which is supposedly "now." What I have realized is that we are always in NOW. The past simply exists as a remembrances which once were now, and are not anymore, except in our memories.

Everything is always happening NOW, But, the past and future is simply memory and anticipation.

Cardinal, basically what I am saying is that according to the view I have (and not saying that it is THE view) regarding time as being a reckoning of what was and anticipation of what will be: If, when we die and are to be with God, if our memories as beings which were in the flesh are to be wiped clean (ie no more memories), and we have no expectation of anything to come, THEN there will be no past or future, just now.

As it is, in how I see things, we already are living in the "now" and everything that happens, occurs NOW.

Quote from: willieH on July 23, 2009, 12:22:10 AM
willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

Paul... the ETERNAL fact is that GOD ...IS... All IN All... and that FACT is being "revealed" in TIME... you just don't (at this moment) see it... TIME does not avail GOD to BECOME anything... HE IS what HE IS... always has been, always will be...

Time is a FINITE entity in which ETERNAL revelation takes place... when the ETERNAL is revealed (CHRIST and that GOD IS ALL IN ALL), then TIME is no longer necessary, for that WHICH is PERFECT is come... and thereby that which is IMPERFECT (time and ALL within it) is done away... that you do not see this now, is okay with me...

My observance of you is that you are a seeker of truth... and mark my words, you WILL discover this one day...  :cloud9:

That said bro, here is my reply to you:

Quote from: trettep on July 22, 2009, 08:26:43 PM
Willie, "I" is a reference to the person.

To begin with bro... "I" is actually a reference to a BEING -- when the word "AM" is applied to it...

It calls attention to an entity that "IS"... it does not indicate that the entity is a "person" even though I do agree that it is indicative of His person (essence)... and that "His PERSON" (essence) ...IS... is actually the point.  For "His essence" encases ALL that He IS (in ETERNAL perspective)... one of which IS, that He IS ALL in ALL...

A "person" is not indicated in this text, ...rather is assumed (Although Heb 1:3 notes Him to be a "person" it more refers to His ESSENCE).

Even if you carry on with the assumption that "His person" is that which is addressed in this verse, then "His person" is that which DOES NOT CHANGE...  :dontknow:

He is MORE than a person, for WE, are "persons" and what HE IS, is much more than we can suppose ourselves to BE... the word PERSON in Heb 1:3 actually means ESSENCE, look it up if you will -- :dontknow:

Concerning YHVH's reference to Himself saying: "I AM"... in Mal 3:6...

A DOG "is" ("am")... but in the dogs existing LIFE, it is not considered a "PERSON"...

A recorded song "is", but is NOT a "PERSON"... that "something/anything" is indicated as BEING, does not mean that that "something" which is noted EXISTING (as in "I AM"),  indicate a "person"...  A trash can IS a trash can, and IS full of trash, without either the trash can or the trash being a "person"...

My point being that in this text, the word "I" does not indicate a person, nor does the word "AM"  indicate it... it simply summarizes ALL that YHVH, ...IS... and that that "ALL" that HE IS, does NOT CHANGE.

Quote from: trettep on July 22, 2009, 08:26:43 PMIt is YOU that are reading more into that.

How can you say that bro?  I am asserting that Mal 3:6 -- SAYS what IT SAYS... that Mal 3:6 includes ALL that YHVH IS, in stating "I AM" -- YHVH... does NOT CHANGE...

It is YOU which implies that HE "BECOMES" something ("all in all") that  He "IS" NOT, ...by using the vehicle of TIME to do so!  And further implying that He was, is and will be -- UNABLE to BE "all in all" without that CREATED vehicle!  :mshock:

And the proposal that He "IS" a "person" is limiting Him... He is MUCH MORE than a "person" -- which we, as sinful BEINGS are... I do not deny that He is SINGULAR and that SINGULARITY can be isolated with the term "person", but Him being a "person" it does not ENCASE Him in any way, as it does with us as FINITES...

Quote from: trettep on July 22, 2009, 08:26:43 PM"I" would be a nature.

That is nothing but assumption.

Quote from: trettep on July 22, 2009, 08:26:43 PMIf it was me speaking then "I" would be a reference to my spirit which is a carnal nature.

No... your CARNAL nature PART of you, and is the unsubmitted portion of YOU... the submitted portion of YOU, is still "I", just submitted to the overcoming POWER of CHRIST, which renders inert, the "unsubmitted" portion of YOU.

The reference to "I" does not just entail your nature... it includes your talents, your physical appearance, your intellect, you memory, etc...

The reference the Apostle Paul makes to himself as "I", is no longer the "I" that he was -- Rom 7:17 -- rather he is become the "I" that LIVES in CHRIST... Nevertheless, later in Rom 7 the TWO -- "I's" remain -- Rom 7:25

In our submission to JESUS... we are no longer "we" but "he" (CHRIST)... yet reference is still made to BOTH when we refer to ourselves as "I"... For the WAR continues to rage within...  :dontknow:

Quote from: trettep on July 22, 2009, 08:26:43 PMSince this is God speaking the nature is "DIVINE".  It doesn't have to say specifically "divine nature" or "spirit" that is implied by "I".  It is the meaning of "I" when the "I" is a referring to God.  It isn't speculation.

"Implied" by YOU, not by the TEXT...

Paul  you are convincing yourself of something that is NOT STATED in Mal 3:6  The "nature" of the Divine is the ESSENCE and TOTALITY of WHO and WHAT God ...IS... which DOES NOT CHANGE...

Whatever GOD ...IS... does NOT CHANGE... THAT is what Mal 3:6 ...SAYS...

GOD ...IS... All IN All... His Creation did not bring forth this, it is an ETERNAL FACT... for He CHANGES NOT... and never "becomes" something He WAS NOT...

Quote from: trettep on July 22, 2009, 08:26:43 PMWillie, if there is no time there cannot be change, for "change" would require time.

TIME is needed for US, who are residents of TIME and who DO CHANGE, ...NOT... for YHVH, who is a "resident" of ETERNITY and DOES NOT CHANGE.

Quote from: trettep on July 22, 2009, 08:26:43 PMFor changes would be measured by some event(s) over time.

Again, what ever ETERNITY ...IS... has ALWAYS BEEN... TIME is amidst it... it is not a measure of it, nor has TIME ALWAYS BEEN... for it had a BEGINNING... and shall have an END... in TOTAL, a mere "dot" in the vastness of forever...

Quote from: trettep on July 22, 2009, 08:26:43 PMSo if God thought that Time was not applicable to God then He wouldn't address Change but rather Time itself.  But since God addresses Change this is confirmation that Time is in the container of Eternity and that Time itself is an attribute of God.

No offense my brother, but this is CONSTRUCTED self-deception... TIME is a Creation of GOD, not an ATTRIBUTE...

CHALLENGE #1:  Thus far, even though you have responded to me twice, ...and you have avoided one challenge so far, in that you have not provided the Scripture which notes "ETERNITY is a SPAN of TIME"... are you having trouble locating it?  :Chinscratch:

CHALLENGE #2:  Note the Scripture which says (according to the words you just stated) "TIME itself is an ATTRIBUTE of GOD"  :dontknow:

Paul, ...I believe you to be a sincere believer... but as you speak, you state things that are not SCRIPTURALLY supported... and are centering part of your "sincere belief" around them...  :sigh:

Thus far you have stated TWO (as far as my research has availed) UnScriptural statements (which remain UNSCRIPTURAL until you provide the support IN THEM)... as well as imposing premises upon Mal 3:6 which are NOT present in it... (that Mal 3:6 notes: "divine nature", and indicates that GOD is a "person") ...as well as noting that GOD needed TIME in order to BE -- ALL in ALL -- which belief indicates that He was INCOMPLETE until He created TIME... which also indicates that He was not PERFECT (complete), for He needed TIME to BECOME something He was NOT.

Sorry bro... don't buy it.  :thumbdown:

:Peace:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

WillieH, I can't teach you what is right if what you believe is right can't be wrong.  So for this discussion, I can only say that God is not ALL in ALL while you believe that now God is ALL in ALL.  So we will have to leave it there.

Paul

Quote from: Seth on July 23, 2009, 01:28:32 AM
Cardinal, basically what I am saying is that according to the view I have (and not saying that it is THE view) regarding time as being a reckoning of what was and anticipation of what will be: If, when we die and are to be with God, if our memories as beings which were in the flesh are to be wiped clean (ie no more memories), and we have no expectation of anything to come, THEN there will be no past or future, just now.

As it is, in how I see things, we already are living in the "now" and everything that happens, occurs NOW.

:cloud9: Hi Seth; I understand what you're saying. Can I just offer this thought? Since there is no time in the Spirit, then the anointed Word that is breath that spoke, IS the perpetual NOW; so therefore when something is spoken to us by that selfsame Spirit and we crucify the flesh to walk in it, then we are in a NOW that is timeless, without beginning and without end. Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on July 23, 2009, 06:34:07 AM

Quote from: Seth on July 23, 2009, 01:28:32 AM
Cardinal, basically what I am saying is that according to the view I have (and not saying that it is THE view) regarding time as being a reckoning of what was and anticipation of what will be: If, when we die and are to be with God, if our memories as beings which were in the flesh are to be wiped clean (ie no more memories), and we have no expectation of anything to come, THEN there will be no past or future, just now.

As it is, in how I see things, we already are living in the "now" and everything that happens, occurs NOW.

:cloud9: Hi Seth; I understand what you're saying. Can I just offer this thought? Since there is no time in the Spirit, then the anointed Word that is breath that spoke, IS the perpetual NOW; so therefore when something is spoken to us by that selfsame Spirit and we crucify the flesh to walk in it, then we are in a NOW that is timeless, without beginning and without end. Blessings....

Tell them, 'I AM has sent me to you.' "

--Ex 3:14

Time still exists in timelessness though. Because music needs time in order to be music.
Music can't exist without time.

So there is still time.
but there is just ALWAYS time..
because eternity is time without end.
Whereas this life here is time WITH end.

um.

hmm.

I hate discussions on time.
Why am I here discussing this?  :laughing7:

I have no clue what I just said.
and I'm pretty sure it didn't make a bit of sense.

ok... stepping back out of the conversation.
I need to go meditate on time before I open my mouth again. :msealed:

willieH: Hi Paul...  :icon_flower:

Quote from: trettep on July 23, 2009, 02:51:23 AM
WillieH, I can't teach you what is right if what you believe is right can't be wrong.

You "can't teach me" -- WHAT IS RIGHT?  Please brother... I was not born yesterday... such subliminal statements will not pass by me... You wish to "teach me"... and that shall not happen... Making the assumption that what I believe cannot or will not change at your "teaching" that which you consider presently as "right"... (which does not mean that it IS right, it is just your present belief that it is  :dontknow:)

You know so little about me Paul... almost every doctrine I once believed during my 33 year walk with God has changed over time... through study and prayer... No man has ever taught me a thing about GOD... and no man SHALL...

As I said, it is not on my agenda to teach you or change you (which is the biggest difference between us), ...only GOD can do that in either of us bro... I stand upon what I believe, just as do you...

And By the way, the same can be said of yourself brother... to quote your words:  "I can't teach you what is right if what you believe is right, can't be wrong"   :dontknow:  Do you hear yourself brother?  Your own words right back atcha!   :winkgrin:

Quote from: trettep on July 23, 2009, 02:51:23 AMSo for this discussion, I can only say that God is not ALL in ALL  while you believe that now God is ALL in ALL.  So we will have to leave it there.

No we shall not "leave it there"... You just said:  "I can only say that God IS NOT ALL in ALL..."  This is a statement, which claims itself as so...

Then... you go on to say:  "while you believe that now God is ALL in ALL" so we will have to leave it there... alluding to that belief as INCORRECT as noted by your preceeding statement that in your opinion "you cannot TEACH me"... for what I "believe" cannot be wrong...  I left right and wrong long ago brother...

No one is RIGHT and no one is WRONG... we are either VEILED or REVEALED to the truth, and each of our "beliefs" are completely in God's hands and leading... 

This is the situation with the JEWS bro... The OT speaks of CHRIST yet they cannot see Him -- Why?  Because GOD has veiled their Spiritual Eyes from the Revelation of Him...

That is "how" it works brother... continuing:

The way you stated this, sounds as if -- YOU SAY that God is not all in all -- then you state my belief as if that belief is incorrect because of what you just said...

Only God shall teach either of us brother P...  You will never teach me a thing and neither shall I teach YOU... but God can use your words or mine to teach the other, if they bear truth, and HE decides to use them to REVEAL to the other...   :dontknow:

Thus far I have seen you on several occasions making additions to what is said in the TEXT... (which has already been pointed out)...  :dontknow:

Btw... are you going to respond to EITHER of my "challenges" that your words --- "ETERNAL -- is a SPAN of TIME", and... "TIME is -- an ATTRIBUTE of GOD"... ARE completely Unscriptural, ...and thereby proving my "challenges" to be in error -- by noting Scripture which "backs" your statements?  Or shall you ignore them because you cannot back them with Scripture which equates to an admission that they are Unscriptural...

We shall see... so far, you are unable... if I were a bettin' man, I'd bet that I will never see that response...  :dontknow:  Which in part, is why you wish to "leave it be"... an easy way out of responding to those challenges...  :sigh:

:Peace:

willieH: Hi Sparrow...  :cloud9:

Quote from: sparrow on July 23, 2009, 07:38:19 AM
Time still exists in timelessness though. Because music needs time in order to be music.

TimeLESSness means without TIME, sis...  :dontknow: ...about time & music:

QuoteMusic can't exist without time.

I am a lifelong musician, playing since 5yrs old... MUSIC does not need TIME, it just needs NOW...

Do you think there was NO MUSIC in Eternity, just because TIME had yet to be Created?  :dontknow:

I don't think so... for at the Creation -- the Morning stars SANG -- Job 38:7

Music was not created... (I believe) it has ALWAYS BEEN...

:Peace:

But...
there has to be time.

It doesn't make sense if time ceased to exist.

how can music exist without time?  :dontknow:

I think there is always going to be the measurement of time but time won't have any of the negative effects it has now.

The passage of time will not involve decay.

(I'm just putting thoughts into words here... bear with me.)

Quote from: Cardinal on July 23, 2009, 06:34:07 AM

Quote from: Seth on July 23, 2009, 01:28:32 AM
Cardinal, basically what I am saying is that according to the view I have (and not saying that it is THE view) regarding time as being a reckoning of what was and anticipation of what will be: If, when we die and are to be with God, if our memories as beings which were in the flesh are to be wiped clean (ie no more memories), and we have no expectation of anything to come, THEN there will be no past or future, just now.

As it is, in how I see things, we already are living in the "now" and everything that happens, occurs NOW.

:cloud9: Hi Seth; I understand what you're saying. Can I just offer this thought? Since there is no time in the Spirit, then the anointed Word that is breath that spoke, IS the perpetual NOW; so therefore when something is spoken to us by that selfsame Spirit and we crucify the flesh to walk in it, then we are in a NOW that is timeless, without beginning and without end. Blessings....

Cardinal, I think we agree on the "now."

I think we may not see "time" the same way, but we are saying the same thing about the "now" aspect of the Spirit. But I will take you one step further with it: What I am saying is that EVERYTHING, that is ALL THINGS that we experience happen in the  now.

I no longer think of "time" as being a timeline like something out of a science fiction film. Timelines, like those of Back to the Future suggest that events happen along a line that can be bounced back and forth, right. And theologians CONTRAST that linear quality with the "now" that is God's experience.

Can you name me any experience you ever had where, when it happened, did not happen in the now? Cardinal, what I am suggesting to you is that "time" itself is NOTHING but a series of memories (past), events that happen now, and what we are promised or anticipate to happen (future). Time is simply a MENTAL construct, a mental method of recall and anticipation, not a physical timeline.

Think of a bad memory you had. It's not happening anymore. It's gone. It only exists IN YOUR MEMORY. It isn't happening on some timeline that you could visit if you had a machine. Everything you experience is NOW.....NOW.......NOW........NOW.......then it's gone, then it is simply memory. That is what the past is, memory and record of things that once happened in the now, which are no longer.

So, I do not see a SEPARATION between "time" and "eternity" as in that eternity is now. It's ALL now.

So the question I have for you, Cardinal: Do you think when your flesh is gone and you are in God completely, that you will have any memory of your life in the flesh?

Quote from: sparrow on July 23, 2009, 08:32:23 AM
But...
there has to be time.

It doesn't make sense if time ceased to exist.

how can music exist without time?  :dontknow:

I think there is always going to be the measurement of time but time won't have any of the negative effects it has now.

I agree. Music is a progression from note to note. Every single note happens NOW, and the music is made when we remember all the notes together (past). Yet the progression is what makes it so beautiful.  :HeartThrob:

I have come to not believe in an eternity where no progression occurs, but have begun to see everything has being now, and then memory, and if we know the song, the anticipation of notes to come. And all put together, that could be considered "time" if one wishes, but I just see it as experience.

hmm. ok that makes sense.
but why do we have to give up the idea of "time"?
I mean if that is basically what time is... (the NOW, but the memory of the past and anticipation of the future as in listening to music.)

why can't there still be time?
I get the "now" thing..
but what is this urge to destroy the idea of time?
ok, well maybe there isn't an urge to destroy... but hopefull you all know what I mean.

time is only a negative thing HERE on earth because DECAY happens with the passage of time.

man, I told myself not to get into a time discussion...
why don't I ever listen to myself?  :laughing7:

Hey Seth,

Quotepredicts that time itself will be resurrected to what God created it to be:

Time is the mould of our created human existence. Sin led to the fact that we have no time, and that we spend a hurried existence between past and future. But the consummation as the glorification of existence will not mean that we are taken out of time and delivered from time, but that time as the form of our glorified existence will also be fulfilled and glorified. Consummation means to live again in the succession of past, present, and future, but in such a way that the past moves along with us as a blessing and the future radiates through the present so that we strive without restlessness and rest without idleness, and so that, though always progressing, we are always at our destination. ~Henry Berkhof [12]

I thought that was kind of interesting.
"the past moves along with us as a blessing... (that's pretty cool.)
and the future radiates through the present... (equally cool.)
just thought I'd share.
still pondering..

Quote from: sparrow on July 23, 2009, 08:52:41 AM
man, I told myself not to get into a time discussion...
why don't I ever listen to myself?  :laughing7:

Gonna be quite a noise if all the melodies of all sparrows happen at the same time  :laughing7:
About time. It's just a law of nature as we know it. But in a new creation....?
Plus don't restrict your thinking to 4 dimentions because there are (at least) 10.
Just as an example: I'm sure you have seen drawings on Trinity. (not arguing if it is true or not)
You see in that drawing Father/Son/HS are not equal. You also see all three of them are God. Finally you see them combined as God.
I know that's hard to grasp. Even looks/is a contradiction. But try in your mind to apply that picture to time....

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 23, 2009, 09:26:54 AM

Quote from: sparrow on July 23, 2009, 08:52:41 AM
man, I told myself not to get into a time discussion...
why don't I ever listen to myself?  :laughing7:

Gonna be quite a noise if all the melodies of all sparrows happen at the same time  :laughing7:
About time. It's just a law of nature as we know it. But in a new creation....?
Plus don't restrict your thinking to 4 dimentions because there are (at least) 10.
Just as an example: I'm sure you have seen drawings on Trinity. (not arguing if it is true or not)
You see in that drawing Father/Son/HS are not equal. You also see all three of them are God. Finally you see them combined as God.
I know that's hard to grasp. Even looks/is a contradiction. But try in your mind to apply that picture to time....

Dude. Are ya trying to help me here or cause my brain to blow a gasket...?

:laughing7:

all right, I'll add it to my "ponderings on time" list.

thanks..  :icon_flower:

Quote from: Seth on July 23, 2009, 08:35:36 AM
So the question I have for you, Cardinal: Do you think when your flesh is gone and you are in God completely, that you will have any memory of your life in the flesh?

:cloud9: Hi Seth........yes I do think I will, but I believe it will be as if it was 'someone else', which of course, it WAS by that point. Blessings..

Quote from: Cardinal on July 23, 2009, 11:45:12 AM

Quote from: Seth on July 23, 2009, 08:35:36 AM
So the question I have for you, Cardinal: Do you think when your flesh is gone and you are in God completely, that you will have any memory of your life in the flesh?

:cloud9: Hi Seth........yes I do think I will, but I believe it will be as if it was 'someone else', which of course, it WAS by that point. Blessings..

Cardinal, maybe we are not too far off of eachother on this. The word time carries with it mucho baggage, so allow me to express what I am saying without that four letter word getting in the way. What You mentioned was that time is the measure of death, which I take to mean tracing the decay of corruptible things.

HOWEVER, if we eliminate even decay and death, I still see a "PROGRESSION of existence" wherein we retain memory. Take the example of music that Sparrow brought up. Music is a PROGRESSION of chords and notes, which when listened to always occurs NOW. But if you remove progression from your concept of "eternity" all notes are playing at the same time always (which in itself is a duration). Take a Mozart symphony. If you remove any sense of progression or duration in eternity, all notes would play at the same time. You get noise without understanding. Music is an expression asking for understanding. Play all the notes at once and all understanding is lost and it is no longer music at all.

What I am suggesting is that because decay and death are removed does not mean progression, duration and memory are removed. Just the fact that you will REMEMBER things that happened in the flesh, shows that your time in the flesh is PAST, even while you are in eternity.

Quote from: sparrow on July 23, 2009, 08:51:24 AM
hmm. ok that makes sense.
but why do we have to give up the idea of "time"?
I mean if that is basically what time is... (the NOW, but the memory of the past and anticipation of the future as in listening to music.)

why can't there still be time?
I get the "now" thing..
but what is this urge to destroy the idea of time?
ok, well maybe there isn't an urge to destroy... but hopefull you all know what I mean.

time is only a negative thing HERE on earth because DECAY happens with the passage of time.

Right. The concept of time does not need to be destroyed simply because decay happens as new "now" moments occur. Decay is simply the decomposition of matter. That will not always be, however, I see no reason to believe that progression itself will be removed.

Plato in his work Timaeus said that "time is the moving image of eternity." His philosophy, I believe, is that eternity does not move, but "time" does. That is where Christianity gets its concepts of eternity as timeless as opposed to time itself. It's Hellenistic philosophy posing as Biblical doctrine. The Bible is silent on it as far as I can see. Even the "I AM" is noted as being BEFORE Abraham was, so I see no reason to eliminate the concept of a progression even if the manifestation of it is happening in a succession of NOWs.

Time is nothing more than an illusion of a line of events. Memory is what makes us think anything is IN the PAST, where in a practical sense the events that happened really aren't anywhere anymore accept in memory.

Quote from: Seth on July 23, 2009, 07:10:03 PM

Quote from: sparrow on July 23, 2009, 08:51:24 AM
hmm. ok that makes sense.
but why do we have to give up the idea of "time"?
I mean if that is basically what time is... (the NOW, but the memory of the past and anticipation of the future as in listening to music.)

why can't there still be time?
I get the "now" thing..
but what is this urge to destroy the idea of time?
ok, well maybe there isn't an urge to destroy... but hopefull you all know what I mean.

time is only a negative thing HERE on earth because DECAY happens with the passage of time.

Right. The concept of time does not need to be destroyed simply because decay happens as new "now" moments occur. Decay is simply the decomposition of matter. That will not always be, however, I see no reason to believe that progression itself will be removed.

Plato in his work Timaeus said that "time is the moving image of eternity." His philosophy, I believe, is that eternity does not move, but "time" does. That is where Christianity gets its concepts of eternity as timeless as opposed to time itself. It's Hellenistic philosophy posing as Biblical doctrine. The Bible is silent on it as far as I can see. Even the "I AM" is noted as being BEFORE Abraham was, so I see no reason to eliminate the concept of a progression even if the manifestation of it is happening in a succession of NOWs.

Time is nothing more than an illusion of a line of events. Memory is what makes us think anything is IN the PAST, where in a practical sense the events that happened really aren't anywhere anymore accept in memory.

Yes!

Awesome...I think we are on the same page.

 :cloud9: Hi Seth.......I think I see what you are trying to convey. Two things I want to share, that I've shared before on here a long while back.

First; I heard on the news a few years back that scientists had created some sort of hearing device that enabled them to hear sounds so much better than ever before. They listened to the legs of crickets, which we hear as an annoying sound, sometimes, lol. They were shocked to find that at the frequency they were now able to hear it, that it actually sounded like the finest symphony playing.

As soon as I heard this, the Lord spoke to me, "Let everything that has breath (His Spirit) praise the Lord." It was given me to understand that if we could only hear it, ALL of creation which was made and is inhabited by His Spirit, has this same "symphony" playing in it at all times.

Now it is continuous, never ending, as is His Spirit, and this is the "symphony" that many NDE'S experience (including my uncle and grandmother who died and came back) while "on the other side". This music has no beginning and no end, because it is not music as we know music, but is a NATURE, and that nature is the NOW of the Spirit,which has no past and no future, but simply IS.

Second; I had a vision once in which I saw Him on the cross and there was like an explosion in my spirit for lack of a better word, and this explosion was a near instantaneous revelation of EVERY SCENE in the Word faster than the human mind can grasp. What I saw with the eye of the Spirit, was scenes going to my left of field of vision from the cross, as scenes in the OT. What I saw to my right, was scenes out of the NT. They both "exploded" out of that cross scene in opposite directions all at once.

What was given to me to understand was this was the Lamb slain from the foundation, and all those things that had the cross as their origination point, were EXPRESSED in time, but originated in the Spirit, in which there IS NO TIME. And as such, in the Spirit, ALL HAPPENED AT ONCE IN THAT INSTANT.

This is nearly impossible for us to wrap our minds around (and for me still, and I saw it), but when He said it is finished, He wasn't speaking about what was going on in time right there, but rather bearing witness to what had ALREADY HAPPENED. I hope this makes sense; it is so hard to express certain things and this is on the top of my list of nearly impossible, LOL. Blessings....

willieH: Hi sister R!  :mwink:

Quote from: Cardinal on July 23, 2009, 09:12:00 PM
I had a vision once in which I saw Him on the cross and there was like an explosion in my spirit for lack of a better word, and this explosion was a near instantaneous revelation of EVERY SCENE in the Word faster than the human mind can grasp. What I saw with the eye of the Spirit, was scenes going to my left of field of vision from the cross, as scenes in the OT. What I saw to my right, was scenes out of the NT. They both "exploded" out of that cross scene in opposite directions all at once.

I have had the very same revelation Rebecca... In this moment, the Lord noted to me that the thief on one side was man in the natural, unconverted, in the presence of God but unable to SEE his Savior and Salvation... (OT) ...and the thief on the other side was man in the spirit, converted and in the presence of God, able to SEE his Savior and Salvation (NT)

Quote from: Cardinal on July 23, 2009, 09:12:00 PMWhat was given to me to understand was this was the Lamb slain from the foundation, and all those things that had the cross as their origination point, were EXPRESSED in time, but originated in the Spirit, in which there IS NO TIME. And as such, in the Spirit, ALL HAPPENED AT ONCE IN THAT INSTANT.

Again... this is like reading my own experience... NOW does not need TIME, ...time needs NOW...  Actally TIME doesn't really exist as we think it to, for the moment either anticipated is yet to be, or noted by experience is past... BOTH are/were in NOW...

When time is removed, we will all LIVE in the MOMENT and behold it, NOW... it will not be elusively gone in a wink of an eye, as the "clock ticks" but remain joy, everlasting...

:Peace: Sis...

QuoteThis music has no beginning and no end, because it is not music as we know music, but is a NATURE, and that nature is the NOW of the Spirit,which has no past and no future, but simply IS.

Cardinal, something having no beginning and no end does not mean NO progression, you see? All music, even here on earth happens now. Yet there is STILL a PROGRESSION from note to note, chord to chord, by which we call it music. That is what music IS. Nothing actually HAPPENS in the past. Anything that happens, even on earth here as we speak only happens NOW. Do we agree on that?

What I am saying is that we don't need to WAIT until we "enter eternity" for the past to be meaningless. It's meaningless now. There IS no past. There IS no future, only what what is reckoned to have happened, and only what was reckoned to have been done. But once something happens in the "now" it's gone.

Time does not move. Nothing exists IN the past. We don't wait to enter eternity for that to be true.

QuoteWhat was given to me to understand was this was the Lamb slain from the foundation, and all those things that had the cross as their origination point, were EXPRESSED in time, but originated in the Spirit, in which there IS NO TIME. And as such, in the Spirit, ALL HAPPENED AT ONCE IN THAT INSTANT.

But where is this in the Bible?

Where in our scripture does it say all things happened at once? God says he calls things which ARE NOT, as though they BE. That means he talks as if something already happened, when it didn't. The EXCEPTION to that rule, among Christians, is that such is true only "in time," but not "in eternity?" Where is that teaching expressed in the Bible that NEGATES the words which express some things as being NOT? There has to be more to verify it than our own philosophies. Where is the teaching in the Bible that explicitly contrasts "time" with "timelessness"?

In God's word some things are NOT. That is explicit. The contradiction to that, is that the things which God calls as being NOT, indeed ARE because of the whole time/timelessness philosophy. Where is written, this contrast between time and timelessness?

Until something happens, it is not. And after it happens, it only "happens" in memory or record, in which case it isn't happening at all.

QuoteThis is nearly impossible for us to wrap our minds around (and for me still, and I saw it), but when He said it is finished, He wasn't speaking about what was going on in time right there, but rather bearing witness to what had ALREADY HAPPENED.

But where does the Bible attest to this in contrast to what God claims to be NOT? If God says somethings are NOT, I have to believe that. If I believe otherwise, I have to have a good reason. For God to say "this is NOT," and for me to claim to the contrary, "this IS" I have to see it in the scripture. Right now, I see NOTHING in the scripture which contrasts "time" with "timelessness" just personal philosophies.

God never gave us an experience that exits in timelessness.  The Apostles and our Lord have never introduced such an idea.  The idea of timelessness is unscriptural. 

Remember if there is no TIME then God cannot be longsuffering.

Paul

willieH: Hi Seth... :hithere:

A few thoughts...  :reachout:

Quote from: CardinalThis music has no beginning and no end, because it is not music as we know music, but is a NATURE, and that nature is the NOW of the Spirit,which has no past and no future, but simply IS.

Quote from: Seth on July 23, 2009, 09:34:40 PMCardinal, something having no beginning and no end does not mean NO progression, you see? All music, even here on earth happens now. Yet there is STILL a PROGRESSION from note to note, chord to chord, by which we call it music. That is what music IS. Nothing actually HAPPENS in the past. Anything that happens, even on earth here as we speak only happens NOW. Do we agree on that?

I completely agree with this thinking, Seth... NOW is all we have... TIME is the tool of the decay/corruption of "NOW" while it is "manifest" within the finite realm in which we find ourselves.

I agree that there must be "progression" in Eternity otherwise everything would be "frozen" -- without activity, ...but that progression is not due to TIME elapsing... it is due to the revelation of JESUS CHRIST which is the WORD which is in an ETERNAL expression -- expressing LIFE...  Just as WE do not speak ALL of our WORDS at once, does not keep them from BEING.  It is the expression of our words that notes PROGRESSION... and TIME did not dictate their BEING, it just enabled their "progression" within the FINITE, while we are in its FINITE realm...

In the ETERNAL, ..."progression" is on another basis, that being the continuing revelation of JESUS CHRIST which IS LIFE -- John 14:6 -- and which emerges from YHVH...

IOW -- "eternal LIFE" is that which emerges from YHVH... for man shall not LIVE by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD that "proceedeth" [progresses] out of the MOUTH of GOD -- Matt 4:4 - Deut 8:3

It is the WORD of GOD "proceeding" from a "mouth" which has no beginning or end" that LIFE emerges and is sustained... NO "TIME" is necessary...

That we are not able to BEHOLD (i.e. comprehend the "no beginning/no end") Eternity, is grounds for it to lapse from the endeavor to explain its parameters, one of which is HOW the ETERNAL might "proceed" or "progress" WITHOUT the presence of TIME... 

How can something BE (liv-ing) without progression? 

Well... TIME is a created entity, and IT "proceeded" from an ETERNAL LIV-ING source -- WITHOUT IT...  for [without time existing] -- GOD SPOKE (which is a progression) and the Creation PROCEEDED FORTH, from His WORDS...   :dontknow:

So, HOW might we explain HOW it "CAME FORTH" when NO TIME existed for the "progression" to take place?   

It is obvious to me that PROGRESSION indeed is involved in the ETERNAL, but that "progression" is NOT SUBJECT to the entity of TIME, only to NOW... and to its SOURCE -- YHVH God! 

And as well, it is also obvious that (infinite) ETERNAL "PROGRESSION" which is done without TIME, ...is beyond those of us within the FINITE (realm of time) ,to grasp.

Quote from: Seth on July 23, 2009, 09:34:40 PMWhat I am saying is that we don't need to WAIT until we "enter eternity" for the past to be meaningless. It's meaningless now. There IS no past. There IS no future, only what what is reckoned to have happened, and only what was reckoned to have been done. But once something happens in the "now" it's gone.

Time does not move. Nothing exists IN the past. We don't wait to enter eternity for that to be true.

:iagree:

Quote from: CardinalWhat was given to me to understand was this was the Lamb slain from the foundation, and all those things that had the cross as their origination point, were EXPRESSED in time, but originated in the Spirit, in which there IS NO TIME. And as such, in the Spirit, ALL HAPPENED AT ONCE IN THAT INSTANT.

Quote from: Seth on July 23, 2009, 09:34:40 PMBut where is this in the Bible?

Where in our scripture does it say all things happened at once? God says he calls things which ARE NOT, as though they BE. That means he talks as if something already happened, when it didn't. The EXCEPTION to that rule, among Christians, is that such is true only "in time," but not "in eternity?" Where is that teaching expressed in the Bible that NEGATES the words which express some things as being NOT? There has to be more to verify it than our own philosophies. Where is the teaching in the Bible that explicitly contrasts "time" with "timelessness"?

It was said by someone here recently that all this scenario (time) is, ...is a "downloading" of sorts by GOD to His BODY/Temple, the knowledge of G & E... that is entirely possible for NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE with God.

That the domain of GOD existed without beginning or end, is the concept of TIMELESSNESS, for TIME has both of these properties... That it is not stated in a "set of words" which says that TIME is an OPPOSITION of ETERNITY, does not preclude that it is.  TIME is an INCOMPLETE commodity for it is YET progressing and noting its HISTORY.

Paul noted:  1 Cor 13:9 -- For we know IN PART and we prophesy IN PART, but when that which is PERFECT [COMPLETE/Eternal] is COME, then that which is IN PART [incomplete/time] shall be:  DONE AWAY...

TIME is definitely an "in part" or "part by part" scenario...  :dontknow:  ...INCOMPLETE, having yet to COMPLETELY "run its course" (which course had a beginning and shall have an end)... which is destined to find its end in the COMPLETE and TIMELESS entity called ETERNITY, from which it emerged... (my  :2c:)

Many things are not stated in the WORD in a "statement" that SAYS in the words which WE might "say it" but are still "SAID"...  they are CONCEALED, and it is:  Pro 25:2 ...the "honor of kings to SEARCH OUT a MATTER" -- One of those "matters" is that which is being discussed at this time...  :thumbsup:

That both JESUS and YHVH stated themselves in terms OTHER than those within time is the notation that THEIR domain is other than TIME and is not subject to it -- YHVH stated "I AM that I AM" (not was or will be)... JESUS stated: BEFORE Abraham WAS [time notation]... I AM [eternal notation]...

Quote from: Seth on July 23, 2009, 09:34:40 PMIn God's word some things are NOT. That is explicit. The contradiction to that, is that the things which God calls as being NOT, indeed ARE because of the whole time/timelessness philosophy. Where is written, this contrast between time and timelessness?

As far as my view of this, it has already be noted...

Quote from: Seth on July 23, 2009, 09:34:40 PMUntil something happens, it is not. And after it happens, it only "happens" in memory or record, in which case it isn't happening at all.

This is only true of the INCOMPLETE entity of TIME... as far as the entity of the ETERNAL... there is NO BEGINNING or END to the things which are about their existance IN IT...  When TIME is COMPLETE it's experience is FOREVER part of the KNOWLEDGE of GOD ...and... His Children (us - His Body and Temple)

Quote from: CardinalThis is nearly impossible for us to wrap our minds around (and for me still, and I saw it), but when He said it is finished, He wasn't speaking about what was going on in time right there, but rather bearing witness to what had ALREADY HAPPENED.

Quote from: Seth on July 23, 2009, 09:34:40 PMBut where does the Bible attest to this in contrast to what God claims to be NOT? If God says somethings are NOT, I have to believe that. If I believe otherwise, I have to have a good reason. For God to say "this is NOT," and for me to claim to the contrary, "this IS" I have to see it in the scripture. Right now, I see NOTHING in the scripture which contrasts "time" with "timelessness" just personal philosophies.

If you analyze the statement Seth... GOD calls things that "are not" as though they "were" is a notation of HIS ETERNAL observation of THE TOTALITY of TIME... HE is enabled to note TIME completely, for He is INFINITE and the Creator OF IT... So as far as HE is concerned, He does not "wait" for TIME to unfold as do we... HE has ALWAYS observed it in its COMPLETED state... END from Beginning...  :dontknow:

GOD is saying that "the things that are NOT" [for us], (ARE) "as if they WERE" -- [for Him]...

TIME shall continue to unfold FOR FINITES (us)...

TIME IS (and always was) a "done deal" for the INFINITE... For "progression" in the ETERNAL does not require TIME in order to BE...

:Peace:

Quote from: trettep on July 23, 2009, 11:08:29 PM
God never gave us an experience that exits in timelessness.  The Apostles and our Lord have never introduced such an idea.  The idea of timelessness is unscriptural. 

Remember if there is no TIME then God cannot be longsuffering.

Paul

If you think in 4 dimentions.
http://blogs.sun.com/bblfish/entry/the_10_dimensions_of_reality
http://thetendimensions.wikispaces.com/The+10th+Dimension
Clink on the navigation links on the left for all 10 dimentions.
Read it if you want. I can't explain it better than the article.

I'll pick out one line:

QuoteSo the 10th Dimension is all possible outcomes for all possible universes in all possible times, ever. So all possibilities are contained within the 10th Dimension, making it the start and end  of everything.

Alpha and Omega?
A not so accurate summary: There can be a now/is and a time flow at the same time.

 time passes or progresses in eternity,but it is not 'counted'

 as it means 'nothing' in the realm of eternity.

 the creation in no way can procede ahead of the creator

  He is the creator of 'time' and He declares in Rev 10;6

  ...time shall be no more

 another thing..the existence of the moon and stars were to

serve as to signs and symbols of 'time'

  In the eternal city there is no light of  a sun or a moon or

lamp in it...but God and Jesus are the light of it.

 another analogy.... think of the vastness of time and space

 in the celestial heavens...how long it takes to reach even the

nearest star to earth[relevance/time]

 now think of HIM THAT DWELLS IN UNAPPROACHABLE LIGHT

 and you will see that 'time' has no place in relation to

 us  dwelling with Him eternally.

  time is in relation to our temporal dwelling only

 when time ceases His work of perfecting His creation is

 complete...it is the true Sabbath or rest..for He is finished

 and His work is complete[creation eternally  perfected]

   when the creator rests the creation rests.

  Now, HE already has many wonderful things stored up for His

children..they are already prepared for us when we enter

the eternal realm. These things prepared for us are not like

the temporal that we dwell in "in time" the earth will no longer

wear out like a garment ...everything prepared for us is eternal.

  It is what He has provided for us as His family, and He is

 the great provider. All the things stored up is for our eternal

life and is without end, will not wear out,dissolve or fade away.

   He has made provisons to sustain us eternally so

we may always be with HIM.

   Longsuffering is required because it requires pateince to

 perfect His creation...and He has long awaited and looked for

the completion of it all. You must realize that the whole

perfected creation eagerly awaits His perfecting of it,and He

eagerly anticipates it's completion.


 It is HIS CROWNING GLORY AND HE WILL RECEIVE ETERNAL

 PRAISE AND GLORY FOR THE WORK OF HIS HANDS!!


   You may liken it to a man carving a farm out of the wilderness..and all the work that goes into it, the building of
barns,bins,and his house..The taking of His wife and the bearing and raising of children.

 .but there is just one thing different about it...first He had to create the heavens and the earth and the land and the sea and the trees and the beasts and the wife and the children..

  and the only think He had to create them out of was HIMSELF

  FOR HE WAS ALL THERE WAS..THERE WAS NOTHING ELSE


    Jacob served 14 years for Rachael..and it was as nothing

 :cloud9: Thanks Willie;  :HeartThrob: aside from being speechless right now, I can't really say it any better than what you just did.  :thumbsup: Blessings....

PS. Just read your post Sheila...... :thumbsup: excellent also. Blessings....

willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

Quote from: trettep on July 23, 2009, 11:08:29 PM
God never gave us an experience that exits in timelessness.  The Apostles and our Lord have never introduced such an idea.  The idea of timelessness is unscriptural.

Until you show Scriptural support for your positions, you are in no position to name another's position as, ..."UNSCRIPTURAL"...

So, ...have you found Scripture to "debunk" my CHALLENGES to "your" UNSCRIPTURAL statements , bro?  If not then where do you "get off" saying to another that TIMELESSNESS is, ...UNSCRIPTURAL?  :laughing7:

"Pot", ...calling the "Kettle" _____  :dontknow:

Quote from: trettep on July 23, 2009, 11:08:29 PMRemember if there is no TIME then God cannot be longsuffering.

Paul

It is not argued by me that GOD is LONGSUFFERING (which is actually PATIENCE)... however,

Where does it say that GOD's "longsuffering" (patience) is done WITHIN TIME Paul?  Since you require SCRIPTURAL basis from others, ...Please note the Scripture which STATES  that GOD's "LONGSUFFERING" is stated as done IN TIME...  :dontknow:

Any element of GOD's existence of "BEING"... is NOT dependent upon TIME, for HE ...IS... ETERNALLY BEFORE it... and the CREATOR ...of IT... which is TOTALLY Scriptural!

TIME is an entity which was MADE -- Gen 1:1-31 by an entity (YHVH) which PRECEEDED it's "creation"... for TIME did NOT EXIST, until it (time) PROCEEDED from the mouth of GOD... which "mouth" preceeded TIME.

The FIRST DAY... means that there were NO "DAYS" before it, otherwise, it was NOT the "FIRST DAY", and the Scripture bears an UNTRUTH (not! :mnah:)...

Prior to the "FIRST DAY"... (days being the primary BIBLICAL measure of TIME), ...TIME did NOT EXIST... which equates to the term TIMELESSNESS...  :dontknow:

Here are some SCRIPTURES which indicate DAYS as the primary and  foundational BIBLICAL measure of TIME:

ADAM:  Concerning the longevity of His life, the WORD notes DAYS --Gen 5:4 -- This notes that YEARS contain DAYS and are a grouping OF THEM...

JESUS:  concerning the DAYLIGHT noted this TIME measure -- John 11:9

JESUS:  Matt 25:13 -- Noting the TIME of His return, bases it upon a DAY...

JESUS:  Matt 6:34 -- noted that CHRIST instructed to stay focused in NOW (toDAY), for the elements of TIME (the "morrow") were irrelevant to NOW which is "when" we LIVE...

willieH: Hi sis!  :cloud9:

Quote from: Cardinal on July 23, 2009, 11:51:07 PM
:cloud9: Thanks Willie;  :HeartThrob: aside from being speechless right now, I can't really say it any better than what you just did.  :thumbsup: Blessings....

PS. Just read your post Sheila...... :thumbsup: excellent also. Blessings....

Bless you sis!  And I agree, Sheila's post was great!  :happyclap:

QuoteI completely agree with this thinking, Seth... NOW is all we have... TIME is the tool of the decay/corruption of "NOW" while it is "manifest" within the finite realm in which we find ourselves.

Hi WillieH, interesting thoughts. Time is one of those issues, fascinating, yet sometimes baffling. You said that "time is the decay of now." Maybe the difference in how we see time factors in to the conclusions we reached, even though some conclusions agree with eachother.

I usually relate the word "decay" to things which are physical. The NOW is really not subject to decay by "time," because no matter where or in what condition we are, "now" always is, and always will be....now. Nor do I (as a side note) believe that time ITSELF decays physical things, only that other physical things do that as now proceeds infinitesimal moment by moment. For example, the passing of time is not the ACTUAL tool of decay for a rock on the beach, the ocean is. Physical decays physical.

One big difference, maybe, in how we view time, is in time being an "entity." I do not see time as an "entity" as being something with an independent existence from everything else which would be discarded. I view time as thought, and really nothing more: The past is memory, and the future is expectation/promise/intention, which is not, until it is.

Here is my official (that is just at this moment, not that I wouldn't change my mind if I saw reason) definition of time: a mental ascertaining of moments.

In THAT respect, I do not see "time" as having a beginning or end. If music exists in eternity, and I percieve each note, I will remember those notes, and therefore those notes will be passed, where the actual existence of the sound occurs in the moment it is played. From the perspective that I see "time" as being not an independent entity from thought, for time to end in eternity, our memories would need to be wiped. So if we experienced music in the now, we would not be able to remember what we heard as eternity progresses.

This perspective calls to mind the theory that "eternity" is somehow the past, present, and future occuring all at once all the time. Huh? Not saying that this is your theory or not, but such a theory is presupposes that something HAPPENS IN the past, which I think you and I agree is not really the case.

If everything is now, as we agree, then time is not an existent LINE whereby events happen simultaniously along that line. That's the stuff of Science Fiction movies and comic books. I personally think that is bunko. Three things work against THAT past/present/future all-at-once-theory: not Scriptural, incomprehensible, not logical. Nothing "happens" in the past, and nothing "happens" in the future. Everything happens now and the rest is mental.

Just my thoughts bro.  :HeartThrob:

QuoteI agree that there must be "progression" in Eternity otherwise everything would be "frozen" -- without activity, ...but that progression is not due to TIME elapsing...

I don't believe time does elapse. Going back to the idea of NOW being in decay. NOW is never decaying, however, taking the example of music: what elapses is not the NOW, but the note that plays IN that moment. So it isn't that TIME (the mental construct) itself elapses, but the EVENTS IN the now elapse after they occur allowing progression to exist. The "now" is stationary, and events pass through it, from promise, to actual experience (now), and then instantly into memory.

Quote from: willieH on July 24, 2009, 12:27:48 AM
willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

Quote from: trettep on July 23, 2009, 11:08:29 PM
God never gave us an experience that exits in timelessness.  The Apostles and our Lord have never introduced such an idea.  The idea of timelessness is unscriptural.

Until you show Scriptural support for your positions, you are in no position to name another's position as, ..."UNSCRIPTURAL"...

So, ...have you found Scripture to "debunk" my CHALLENGES to "your" UNSCRIPTURAL statements , bro?  If not then where do you "get off" saying to another that TIMELESSNESS is, ...UNSCRIPTURAL?  :laughing7:

"Pot", ...calling the "Kettle" _____  :dontknow:

Quote from: trettep on July 23, 2009, 11:08:29 PMRemember if there is no TIME then God cannot be longsuffering.

Paul

It is not argued by me that GOD is LONGSUFFERING (which is actually PATIENCE)... however,

Where does it say that GOD's "longsuffering" (patience) is done WITHIN TIME Paul?  Since you require SCRIPTURAL basis from others, ...Please note the Scripture which STATES  that GOD's "LONGSUFFERING" is stated as done IN TIME...  :dontknow:

Any element of GOD's existence of "BEING"... is NOT dependent upon TIME, for HE ...IS... ETERNALLY BEFORE it... and the CREATOR ...of IT... which is TOTALLY Scriptural!

TIME is an entity which was MADE -- Gen 1:1-31 by an entity (YHVH) which PRECEEDED it's "creation"... for TIME did NOT EXIST, until it (time) PROCEEDED from the mouth of GOD... which "mouth" preceeded TIME.

The FIRST DAY... means that there were NO "DAYS" before it, otherwise, it was NOT the "FIRST DAY", and the Scripture bears an UNTRUTH (not! :mnah:)...

Prior to the "FIRST DAY"... (days being the primary BIBLICAL measure of TIME), ...TIME did NOT EXIST... which equates to the term TIMELESSNESS...  :dontknow:

Here are some SCRIPTURES which indicate DAYS as the primary and  foundational BIBLICAL measure of TIME:

ADAM:  Concerning the longevity of His life, the WORD notes DAYS --Gen 5:4 -- This notes that YEARS contain DAYS and are a grouping OF THEM...

JESUS:  concerning the DAYLIGHT noted this TIME measure -- John 11:9

JESUS:  Matt 25:13 -- Noting the TIME of His return, bases it upon a DAY...

JESUS:  Matt 6:34 -- noted that CHRIST instructed to stay focused in NOW (toDAY), for the elements of TIME (the "morrow") were irrelevant to NOW which is "when" we LIVE...

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

WillieH, I have no need of your challenges to know the Truth on this topic.  You haven't yet shown where the scriptures say that "God exists in timelessness".   Time is not something that is created.  It just IS - as He is.

Paul

WillieH, don't confuse measurements of time with time.  You used Genesis 1:31 to claim that God made time.  He does no such thing.  Time exists as He exists.  Genesis 1:31 doesn't say that time was created.  In fact all things created were created INSIDE of time.

Paul

willieH: Hi Paul...  :icon_flower:

Quote from: trettep on July 24, 2009, 01:13:58 AM
WillieH, I have no need of your challenges to know the Truth on this topic.

:laughing7: -- My "challenges" were to UNSCRIPTURAL statements you have made in this discussion, bro... and as I said, you won't be producing them, for they don't exist.

Quote from: trettep on July 24, 2009, 01:13:58 AMYou haven't yet shown where the scriptures say that "God exists in timelessness".

I have more than made a basis for TIMELESSNESS Scripturally, you just do not acknowledge it... which is fine with me... Only God shall teach you what you need to know, when you need to know it...  :dontknow:

Quote from: trettep on July 24, 2009, 01:13:58 AMTime is not something that is created.  It just IS - as He is.

Paul

This is nothing but denial you make in order to maintain your beliefs concerning TIME...

DAYS are the essential CREATION of TIME... as I have already noted and have no intention of repeating... That you purposely avoid this is your affair bro...

The challenges to your UNSCRIPTURAL statements remain:

CHALLENGE #1:  Thus far, even though you have responded to me several times (including this response), ...and you have avoided one challenge so far, in that you have not provided the Scripture which notes "ETERNITY is a SPAN of TIME"... are you having trouble locating it?  :Chinscratch:

CHALLENGE #2:  Note the Scripture which says (according to the words you just stated) "TIME itself is an ATTRIBUTE of GOD"  :dontknow:

:Peace:

Quote from: willieH on July 24, 2009, 02:26:29 AM
willieH: Hi Paul...  :icon_flower:

Quote from: trettep on July 24, 2009, 01:13:58 AM
WillieH, I have no need of your challenges to know the Truth on this topic.

:laughing7: -- My "challenges" were to UNSCRIPTURAL statements you have made in this discussion, bro... and as I said, you won't be producing them, for they don't exist.

Quote from: trettep on July 24, 2009, 01:13:58 AMYou haven't yet shown where the scriptures say that "God exists in timelessness".

I have more than made a basis for TIMELESSNESS Scripturally, you just do not acknowledge it... which is fine with me... Only God shall teach you what you need to know, when you need to know it...  :dontknow:

Quote from: trettep on July 24, 2009, 01:13:58 AMTime is not something that is created.  It just IS - as He is.

Paul

This is nothing but denial you make in order to maintain your beliefs concerning TIME...

DAYS are the essential CREATION of TIME... as I have already noted and have no intention of repeating... That you purposely avoid this is your affair bro...

The challenges to your UNSCRIPTURAL statements remain:

CHALLENGE #1:  Thus far, even though you have responded to me several times (including this response), ...and you have avoided one challenge so far, in that you have not provided the Scripture which notes "ETERNITY is a SPAN of TIME"... are you having trouble locating it?  :Chinscratch:

CHALLENGE #2:  Note the Scripture which says (according to the words you just stated) "TIME itself is an ATTRIBUTE of GOD"  :dontknow:

:Peace:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Willie, I will show you in time, bro.  But let me tell you, just as the scriptures don't say that "Eternity is a span of Time", it also doesn't say "God will save trettep".

Anything less than getting word for word literal translation for you seems to be pointless at this point Willie.  Because you will quickly say "show me a sign".

Paul

willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

Quote from: trettep on July 24, 2009, 01:18:41 AM
WillieH, don't confuse measurements of time with time.

Please bro... You stumble over your own words in trying to keep from drowning in the self-deception in which you wallow...  :sigh:  How can TIME be separated from its MEASUREMENT?  That is like saying the GALLON (measurement) is separate and not to be confused with the MILK...  :mshock:

An HOUR is 60 minutes and cannot be separated from that measurement... a DAY is 24 hours and cannot be separated from that measurement...

If these things were as OPTIONAL as you propose (TIME's "measurement" separate from itself)... then you must be just as willing to work A YEAR for a WEEK's pay -- as opposed to just a WEEK -- eh?  :pointlaugh:

Such thinking is stubborn and just ridiculous... :pitiful:

Quote from: trettep on July 24, 2009, 01:18:41 AMYou used Genesis 1:31 to claim that God made time.  He does no such thing.  Time exists as He exists.  Genesis 1:31 doesn't say that time was created.  In fact all things created were created INSIDE of time.

Paul

More denial... ETERNITY is not an entity IN TIME... you have the cart before the horse, bro...

TIME was created INSIDE of ETERNITY...

FIRST -- I have proven that DAYS are the essential BIBLICAL measurement of TIME...

SECOND -- You in effect above DENY that DAYS are TIME!!

THIRD -- I have already SCRIPTURALLY proven that TIME is BIBLICALLY measured in DAYS... For ADAM's LIFESPAN of TIME, was noted IN DAYS...

FOURTH -- TIME is clearly the OPPOSITE of ETERNITY --->

>>  TIME is INCOMPLETE -- :sigh: -- whereas ETERNITY is COMPLETE --  :cloud9:
>>  TIME is TEMPORAL --  :sigh: -- whereas ETERNITY is PERMANENT --  :cloud9:
>>  TIME is the realm of DECAYING and SIN and DEATH --  :sigh: -- whereas ETERNITY is the realm of HEALTH and HOLINESS and LIFE --  :cloud9:

1 John 2:18 --  we know that it is the LAST TIME...
Rev 10:6 -- there should be TIME ...NO LONGER...
Eph 5:16 -- the DAYS are EVIL...
Acts 2:17 -- the LAST DAYS...
John 6:44 -- the LAST DAY -- no more "days"


PRIOR to Creation OF DAYS which CHRIST noted as a TIME MEASUREMENT (already provided) -- GOD's Spirit is NOTED -- Gen 1:1 as well as ALL the SONS of GOD were PRESENT -- Job 38:7

DAYS were created Trettep... yet you deny them as "time", calling them "measurements" which are separate not to be confused with the entity they "measure"...  dont' know whether to -- :rolleye: -- or just  -- :sigh:

Paul... you require others to BIBLICALLY prove themselves, but all you seem to do is post your OPINION (your words) with NO BIBLICAL support of it...  :thumbdown:

In your short time here, I have noted your enlightenment on other subjects... which notes you to be a seeker...  :nod:

And it is not necessarily vital that you know this particular truth, in order for you to be an effective witness for God...  :dontknow:

I believe that you shall know it as TIME comes to unfold in your experience...  :happygrin:

Quote from: willieH on July 23, 2009, 09:31:32 PM
When time is removed, we will all LIVE in the MOMENT and behold it, NOW... it will not be elusively gone in a wink of an eye, as the "clock ticks" but remain joy, everlasting...

But this just doesn't make sense to me.
So when time is removed....
and I see you and say "Hi Willie!"
are you saying that as soon as I say "hi" it is gone so in that moment you hear me say "hi" then all of a sudden, I say "Willie!" and then that is gone... and it was essentially like I never even said "hi willie!" because there is only NOW.

What is so wrong with time that it cannot have a NEW PURPOSE, a glorified purpose?

willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

Quote from: trettep on July 24, 2009, 02:55:48 AM
Willie, I will show you in time, bro.

Hmmm.... Really?  I don't make statements about the Scriptures and then later look into them, hoping to find my statements IN THERE!   :mshock:

Be honest bro, ...If indeed you KNEW these thoughts were Scripturally based, you would've long ago posted that proof...

In any event, ...I won't "hold my breath", ...and don't take TOO LONG brother, after all, I'm 64 years old -- for crying out loud!  :laughing7: 

Quote from: trettep on July 24, 2009, 02:55:48 AMBut let me tell you, just as the scriptures don't say that "Eternity is a span of Time", it also doesn't say "God will save trettep".

Nice to see you admit that one of your statements is not mentioned in the WORD...  :thumbsup:  I commend you for it!  :happygrin:

ahhh, but GOD DOES SAY He will SAVE ALL, which happens to include YOU, brother "trettep"!!!  :laughing7:

In any event, we are not discussing that the SCRIPTURE does not personally NAME us... we are discussing that YOU have made some statements which are NOT FOUNDED in the SCRIPTURE, and until you name their SCRIPTURAL FOUNDATION... they remain UNSCRIPTURAL...

One of which you have just admitted to,  :cloud9: ...and btw... the other ("Time itself, is an ATTRIBUTE of GOD") isn't in there either...  :mnah:  :wink2:

Quote from: trettep on July 24, 2009, 02:55:48 AMAnything less than getting word for word literal translation for you seems to be pointless at this point Willie.

Come - on!  :Violinhit:

You haven't produced ANYTHING Paul!  Not even a "loosely worded" -- "kinda close" to your statement -- kind of SCRIPTURE!  NOTHING!  Cough it up dude!  Or it just appears you are talking out of your B__t opinion... :dontknow:  :laughing7:

Hey we all do it here & there, no biggie, bro...  :laughing7:

Quote from: trettep on July 24, 2009, 02:55:48 AMBecause you will quickly say "show me a sign".

Boy, you are really reaching there my friend... All I asked was for you to produce foundation for your statements... You have FAILED to do so... and WHERE have I required of you to "show me a sign"?   :JCThink:  Come on me-bratha  :afFro:

Let's face it bro, they ARE NOT IN THERE...  It is part of the learning process to engage humility... trust me, I have eaten a word or two along my pathway.
"Humble pie" doesn't taste that bad... It is a healing food to eat... and believe me, I've munched on it a time or two!

I would hope to get it through to you, that it is not YOU against ME... we are both seeking the TRUTH... and one possibly both of us, shall have a bite of that "PIE" as TIME unfolds...  :laughhand:

I don't have a problem with being INCORRECT... for part of the DUTY of the SCRIPTURE is to CORRECT... and I LOVE that about SCRIPTURE... I do not avoid it... I jump INTO IT...

So, come on in brother trettep, ...the water's fine!  :friendstu:  :beach:

No time makes sense.
and then it doesn't make sense.


see... I'm on the verge of it making sense..
and then I lose it.

hmmm.
maybe I should just stick to pondering this subject for now.

peace ya'll..  :Sparkletooth:

willieH: Hi sister S...  :cloud9:

Quote from: willieH on July 23, 2009, 09:31:32 PM
When time is removed, we will all LIVE in the MOMENT and behold it, NOW... it will not be elusively gone in a wink of an eye, as the "clock ticks" but remain joy, everlasting...

Quote from: sparrow on July 24, 2009, 03:56:23 AMBut this just doesn't make sense to me.
So when time is removed....
and I see you and say "Hi Willie!"
are you saying that as soon as I say "hi" it is gone so in that moment you hear me say "hi" then all of a sudden, I say "Willie!" and then that is gone... and it was essentially like I never even said "hi willie!" because there is only NOW.

NO... what I was saying that your greeting IS enjoyed forever... not just disappearing into a forgotten past, as does most of this life... What did you have for lunch on July 1st?

Quote from: sparrow on July 24, 2009, 03:56:23 AMWhat is so wrong with time that it cannot have a NEW PURPOSE, a glorified purpose?

GOD notes time shall end... and its purpose is accomplished... which means that HIS PURPOSE is what we need to embrace, not our perceptions in this life...

Whatever He has prepared for us in our RETURN to ETERNITY... is JOYFUL and COMPLETE well beyond the LIMITED parameters of this life, to include  :clock: --TIME...  :grouppray: :friendstu: :banana: :myahoo: :LoveH1: :mfriends: :nod:

:Peace:

Quote from: willieH on July 24, 2009, 03:27:50 AM
willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

Quote from: trettep on July 24, 2009, 01:18:41 AM
WillieH, don't confuse measurements of time with time.

Please bro... You stumble over your own words in trying to keep from drowning in the self-deception in which you wallow...  :sigh:  How can TIME be separated from its MEASUREMENT?  That is like saying the GALLON (measurement) is separate and not to be confused with the MILK...  :mshock:

An HOUR is 60 minutes and cannot be separated from that measurement... a DAY is 24 hours and cannot be separated from that measurement...

If these things were as OPTIONAL as you propose (TIME's "measurement" separate from itself)... then you must be just as willing to work A YEAR for a WEEK's pay -- as opposed to just a WEEK -- eh?  :pointlaugh:

Such thinking is stubborn and just ridiculous... :pitiful:

Quote from: trettep on July 24, 2009, 01:18:41 AMYou used Genesis 1:31 to claim that God made time.  He does no such thing.  Time exists as He exists.  Genesis 1:31 doesn't say that time was created.  In fact all things created were created INSIDE of time.

Paul

More denial... ETERNITY is not an entity IN TIME... you have the cart before the horse, bro...

TIME was created INSIDE of ETERNITY...

FIRST -- I have proven that DAYS are the essential BIBLICAL measurement of TIME...

SECOND -- You in effect above DENY that DAYS are TIME!!

THIRD -- I have already SCRIPTURALLY proven that TIME is BIBLICALLY measured in DAYS... For ADAM's LIFESPAN of TIME, was noted IN DAYS...

FOURTH -- TIME is clearly the OPPOSITE of ETERNITY --->

>>  TIME is INCOMPLETE -- :sigh: -- whereas ETERNITY is COMPLETE --  :cloud9:
>>  TIME is TEMPORAL --  :sigh: -- whereas ETERNITY is PERMANENT --  :cloud9:
>>  TIME is the realm of DECAYING and SIN and DEATH --  :sigh: -- whereas ETERNITY is the realm of HEALTH and HOLINESS and LIFE --  :cloud9:

1 John 2:18 --  we know that it is the LAST TIME...
Rev 10:6 -- there should be TIME ...NO LONGER...
Eph 5:16 -- the DAYS are EVIL...
Acts 2:17 -- the LAST DAYS...
John 6:44 -- the LAST DAY -- no more "days"


PRIOR to Creation OF DAYS which CHRIST noted as a TIME MEASUREMENT (already provided) -- GOD's Spirit is NOTED -- Gen 1:1 as well as ALL the SONS of GOD were PRESENT -- Job 38:7

DAYS were created Trettep... yet you deny them as "time", calling them "measurements" which are separate not to be confused with the entity they "measure"...  dont' know whether to -- :rolleye: -- or just  -- :sigh:

Paul... you require others to BIBLICALLY prove themselves, but all you seem to do is post your OPINION (your words) with NO BIBLICAL support of it...  :thumbdown:

In your short time here, I have noted your enlightenment on other subjects... which notes you to be a seeker...  :nod:

And it is not necessarily vital that you know this particular truth, in order for you to be an effective witness for God...  :dontknow:

I believe that you shall know it as TIME comes to unfold in your experience...  :happygrin:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Willie, a day is not 24 hours.  A day is 12 hours.  Light is the measurement for measuring the day.  There cannot be more than 12 hours in a day.   See your confusing measurement and time.  Were talking scripture, willie, you won't find an hour mentioned more than twelve in the scriptures.

Those are measurements OF Time. 

Rom 1:20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Do you get that willie?  We are to understand God by the things that are MADE in this creation (kosmos).  Now where is timelessness to be understood by the things that are made?

Can you tell me what is made by which I should understand timelessness?

Paul

Quote from: sparrow on July 24, 2009, 04:05:29 AM
No time makes sense.
and then it doesn't make sense.


see... I'm on the verge of it making sense..
and then I lose it.

hmmm.
maybe I should just stick to pondering this subject for now.

peace ya'll..  :Sparkletooth:

Sparrow, time always exists.  There is never a time when there isn't time.  Days, years, months, seconds, seasons, durations, etc... are all just measurements in time.

Paul

Quote from: willieH on July 24, 2009, 04:07:11 AM
NO... what I was saying that your greeting IS enjoyed forever... not just disappearing into a forgotten past, as does most of this life... What did you have for lunch on July 1st?


GOD notes time shall end... and its purpose is accomplished... which means that HIS PURPOSE is what we need to embrace, not our perceptions in this life...

Whatever He has prepared for us in our RETURN to ETERNITY... is JOYFUL and COMPLETE well beyond the LIMITED parameters of this life, to include  :clock: --TIME...  :grouppray: :friendstu: :banana: :myahoo: :LoveH1: :mfriends: :nod:

:Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:

ohhhhh.... hmmm. I like that, willie. "your greeting IS enjoyed forever... not just disappearing into a forgotten past, as does most of this life.."

That is making "eternity" make more sense and seem less scary.
I mean, eternity, sometimes.... seems a bit scary.
because you start to think of things in strange, not so good ways.

But what you just said.. and thinking about the quote I posted earlier, and then what Seth said...
hmmm. I think I'm in the beginnings of this maybe starting to make a little more sense.

thanks you guys...

Quote from: WillieHwe will all LIVE in the MOMENT and behold it, NOW... it will not be elusively gone in a wink of an eye, as the "clock ticks" but remain joy, everlasting...

WillieH, I totally agree with you. I just don't see that "time" needs to end in order to make that so. We already live in the moment and we also behold it right now. But we also behold joy that has gone before. I remember the birth of my daughter. That is a joy that is in my memory, and it is past, but I still behold it and experience the joy of it.

What I believe will be forgotten will be the pain (forgotten in the sense of pain not bringing us into her grip) and what will be left is understanding.

We agree about progression. You had said: I agree that there must be "progression" in Eternity otherwise everything would be "frozen" -- without activity. A progression is nothing more than a movement that occurs in stages. The "movement" is actually an illusion created by our memory of "now" experiences in sucession. Everything is now. HOWEVER, what happens is that we EXPERIENCE the progression as a successive series of experiences, in and through our ability to recall what happened.

Time will not be erased or discarded, because time is simply the regard we have for the experiences that occur in the now. That is all time is and that is all progression is. Otherwise you are completely right: the converse is a state of inactivity, frozen, either all experiences at once (huh?) or no experiences at all (huh?).

The Joy Everlasting will be retained in our knowledge AS Eternity progresses. I see time in that, since time is simply our beholding of the progress of existence.

willieH: Hi Paul...  :icon_flower:

You get more stubborn with each post, bro.

Quote from: trettep on July 24, 2009, 04:35:40 AM
Willie, a day is not 24 hours.  A day is 12 hours.  Light is the measurement for measuring the day.  There cannot be more than 12 hours in a day.   See your confusing measurement and time.  Were talking scripture, willie, you won't find an hour mentioned more than twelve in the scriptures.

No you are just TALKING... you seldom note SCRIPTURE, just make false statements which are NOT in SCRIPTURE and when you do note things that are actually noted in the WORD, within your own babble, ...you exaggerate that which IS said in it...

Trying to refer to a DAY as 12 hours in length... which is foolish.  CHRIST noted there are 12 hours in DAY -- John 11:9 -- because He was speaking that men can profitably DO THINGS in the LIGHT, that they cannot DO in the DARK, ...for the will STUMBLE in the dark... while alluding to His presence as that profitable LIGHT in which they might gain by the LIGHT of His presence...

Earlier in the context where JESUS noted there are "12 hours in a DAY", -- John 11:6 -- it was noted that He abode 2 DAYS in the same place... does that mean to you that he went ELSEWHERE during the NIGHT, trettep?  And only "hung out" during the DAY?  :laughing7:

Let's face it brother trettep, ...you are just being completely ridiculous now, in order to maintain a ridiculous viewpoint which only entertains TIME as an entity that occurs during the 12 hours of DAYLIGHT...  :laughhand:  And that a "DAY" is just the DAYLIGHT portion...  :Chinscratch: --> :mnah:

A DAY is composed of EVENING ...AND... MORNING... there are 12 hours of DAYLIGHT in HALF a "DAY"... the other HALF of the DAY is NIGHT... and 12 hours within IT as well...

I guess you don't get much SLEEP there doya trettep?   Since there is NO "TIME" during the NIGHT (because Scripture doesn't note "NIGHT" TIME)... as for me, I get a good EIGHT HOURS per night... but let it be known that I do feel compassion for INSOMINIACS such as yourself, which cannot get ANY SLEEPTIME, since you don't believe that TIME does NOT exist during NON-DAYLIGHT periods...  :rolleye:

As you see it, (because there is no DAYLIGHT in the NIGHT, and the Scripture only notes 12 hours in a DAY") there are therefore NO HOURS in the NIGHT, and the NIGHT does not count as TIME... nor CONTAIN TIME...  (Hope you don't get any graveyard shifts, you won't be recieving a very big paycheck  :crywipe:)...  :LH:

Btw... Are you gonna "fess-up" to your other false notations?  :dontknow:  Or just continue to add to them...  :Chinscratch:

Quote from: trettep on July 24, 2009, 04:35:40 AMRom 1:20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Do you get that willie?  We are to understand God by the things that are MADE in this creation (kosmos).  Now where is timelessness to be understood by the things that are made?

By the "TEMPORAL state" in which the things that are MADE, participate and then FADE AWAY to DEATH... which "TEMPORAL state" happens to MARK TIME...

By the TIMELESS ONE who MADE THEM and PRECEEDED THEM and IS BEFORE ALL THINGS, ...before they became entities within the CREATION of TIME... for the WORD made all that was MADE... to include the DAYS of TIME, and simultaneously, within that TIME, ...brought forth the EARTH and HEAVENS, as well as ALL that in them ARE... uhhh... did you get that trettep?  :dontknow:

The TEMPORAL things that are MADE are evidences of the ETERNAL which ALWAYS IS... which is why we are confined to this PUNY little planet which is INSIGNIFICANT and INVISIBLE amongst an UNENDINGLY VAST UNIVERSE... uhhh, ...did you get that trettep?

The things MADE are evidences of the invisible ETERNALLY LIVING SPIRIT... for they are REFLECTIONS of it, ...IMAGES... which are projected into PHYSICALITY which IN TIME, ...are PASSING AWAY in their VAPOROUS and TEMPORAL existence... to DEATH in TIME...

Name ONE LIVING THING in TIME, ...outside the Earth and Stars... which has LIVED and MAINTAINED its existence, continuously since it's beginning...

Quote from: trettep on July 24, 2009, 04:35:40 AMCan you tell me what is made by which I should understand timelessness?

I could speak TRUTH till I was out of TIME... and you would still ARGUE against it trettep.  Though you are a nice guy, ...you have a VERY stubborn spirit... which fights against LOGIC as well as speaks UNSCRIPTURAL statements, yet requires SCRIPTURE from others... :pitiful:

What is "MADE" is the CLEAR evidence of a MAKER which PRECEEDED all of this... of course that is to simple for you to understand, as you are far too complex in your self ordination as a "teacher"... :laugh:

Such as these type of stances must equate that most of the MEN which were "begat" as noted in Scripture, must've  been "begatted" by supernatural means since rarely are WOMEN ever mentioned in the GENEOLOGIES... is that your stance trettep?  Something like the "12 hours in a day" thing?   Since no women were mentioned, they must not have been taking part in the "begatting" thing -- eh?

Think about yourself and your positions trettep... I don't condemn you for your positions, (though I DO see them as quite stubborn), ...just find them often clinging to ILLOGICAL and UNSCRIPTURAL... self observations... instead of REASONING reasonably... you make a day and TIME, confined to DAYLIGHT hours... :mnah:

:Peace:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: willieH on July 24, 2009, 09:47:01 AM
willieH: Hi Paul...  :icon_flower:

You get more ridiculous with each post, bro.

Quote from: trettep on July 24, 2009, 04:35:40 AM
Willie, a day is not 24 hours.  A day is 12 hours.  Light is the measurement for measuring the day.  There cannot be more than 12 hours in a day.   See your confusing measurement and time.  Were talking scripture, willie, you won't find an hour mentioned more than twelve in the scriptures.

No you are just TALKING... you seldom note SCRIPTURE, just make false statements which are NOT in SCRIPTURE and when you do note things that are actually noted in the WORD, within your own babble, ...you exaggerate that which IS said in it...

Trying to refer to a DAY as 12 hours in length... which is foolish.  CHRIST noted there are 12 hours in DAY -- John 11:9 -- because He was speaking that men can profitably DO THINGS in the LIGHT, that they cannot DO in the DARK, ...for the will STUMBLE in the dark... while alluding to His presence as that profitable LIGHT in which they might gain by the LIGHT of His presence...

Earlier in the context where JESUS noted there are "12 hours in a DAY", -- John 11:6 -- it was noted that He abode 2 DAYS in the same place... does that mean to you that he went ELSEWHERE during the NIGHT, trettep?  And only "hung out" during the DAY?  :laughing7:

Let's face it brother trettep, ...you are just being completely ridiculous now, in order to maintain a ridiculous viewpoint which only entertains TIME as an entity that occurs during the 12 hours of DAYLIGHT...  :laughhand:  And that a "DAY" is just the DAYLIGHT portion...  :Chinscratch: --> :mnah:

A DAY is composed of EVENING ...AND... MORNING... there are 12 hours of DAYLIGHT in HALF a "DAY"... the other HALF of the DAY is NIGHT... and 12 hours within IT as well...

I guess you don't get much SLEEP there doya trettep?   Since there is NO "TIME" during the NIGHT (because Scripture doesn't note "NIGHT" TIME)... as for me, I get a good EIGHT HOURS per night... but let it be known that I do feel compassion for INSOMINIACS such as yourself, which cannot get ANY SLEEPTIME, since you don't believe that TIME does NOT exist during NON-DAYLIGHT periods...  :rolleye:

As you see it, (because there is no DAYLIGHT in the NIGHT, and the Scripture only notes 12 hours in a DAY") there are therefore NO HOURS in the NIGHT, and the NIGHT does not count as TIME... nor CONTAIN TIME...  (Hope you don't get any graveyard shifts, you won't be recieving a very big paycheck  :crywipe:)...  :LH:

Get outta here with this false BS, brother trettep!   :thumbdown:  (I don't mean leave, I mean it would be nice if you would cut the foolish and illogical, BS!  :boredom:)

Btw... Are you gonna "fess-up" to your other false notations?  :dontknow:  Or just continue to add to them...  :Chinscratch:

Quote from: trettep on July 24, 2009, 04:35:40 AMRom 1:20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Do you get that willie?  We are to understand God by the things that are MADE in this creation (kosmos).  Now where is timelessness to be understood by the things that are made?

By the "TEMPORAL state" in which the things that are MADE, participate and then FADE AWAY to DEATH... which "TEMPORAL state" happens to MARK TIME...

By the TIMELESS ONE who MADE THEM and PRECEEDED THEM and IS BEFORE ALL THINGS, ...before they became entities within the CREATION of TIME... for the WORD made all that was MADE... to include the DAYS of TIME, and simultaneously, within that TIME, ...brought forth the EARTH and HEAVENS, as well as ALL that in them ARE... uhhh... did you get that trettep?  :dontknow:

The TEMPORAL things that are MADE are evidences of the ETERNAL which ALWAYS IS... which is why we are confined to this PUNY little planet which is INSIGNIFICANT and INVISIBLE amongst an UNENDINGLY VAST UNIVERSE... uhhh, ...did you get that trettep?

The things MADE are evidences of the invisible ETERNALLY LIVING SPIRIT... for they are REFLECTIONS of it, ...IMAGES... which are projected into PHYSICALITY which IN TIME, ...are PASSING AWAY in their VAPOROUS and TEMPORAL existence... to DEATH in TIME...

Name ONE LIVING THING in TIME, ...outside the Earth and Stars... which has LIVED and MAINTAINED its existence, continuously since it's beginning...

Quote from: trettep on July 24, 2009, 04:35:40 AMCan you tell me what is made by which I should understand timelessness?

I could speak TRUTH till I was out of TIME... and you would still ARGUE against it trettep.  Though you are a nice guy, ...you have a VERY stubborn spirit... which fights against LOGIC as well as speaks UNSCRIPTURAL statements, yet requires SCRIPTURE from others... :pitiful:

What is "MADE" is the CLEAR evidence of a MAKER which PRECEEDED all of this... of course that is to simple for you to understand, as you are far too complex in your self ordination as a "teacher"... :laugh:

Such ridiculous stances must equate that most of the MEN which were "begat" as noted in Scripture, must've  been "begatted" by supernatural means since rarely are WOMEN ever mentioned in the GENEOLOGIES... is that your stance trettep?  Something like the "12 hours in a day" thing?   Since no women were mentioned, they must not have been taking part in the "begatting" thing -- eh?

Think about yourself and your positions trettep... I don't condemn you for your positions, (though I DO see them as stubborn), ...just find them clinging to ILLOGICAL and UNSCRIPTURAL... self observations... instead of REASONING reasonably... you make a day and TIME, confined to DAYLIGHT hours... :mnah:

:Peace:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

and the pattern continues........ 

:thumbdown: :thumbdown:

Quote from: willieH on July 24, 2009, 09:47:01 AM
willieH: Hi Paul...  :icon_flower:

You get more ridiculous with each post, bro.

Quote from: trettep on July 24, 2009, 04:35:40 AM
Willie, a day is not 24 hours.  A day is 12 hours.  Light is the measurement for measuring the day.  There cannot be more than 12 hours in a day.   See your confusing measurement and time.  Were talking scripture, willie, you won't find an hour mentioned more than twelve in the scriptures.

No you are just TALKING... you seldom note SCRIPTURE, just make false statements which are NOT in SCRIPTURE and when you do note things that are actually noted in the WORD, within your own babble, ...you exaggerate that which IS said in it...

Trying to refer to a DAY as 12 hours in length... which is foolish.  CHRIST noted there are 12 hours in DAY -- John 11:9 -- because He was speaking that men can profitably DO THINGS in the LIGHT, that they cannot DO in the DARK, ...for the will STUMBLE in the dark... while alluding to His presence as that profitable LIGHT in which they might gain by the LIGHT of His presence...

Earlier in the context where JESUS noted there are "12 hours in a DAY", -- John 11:6 -- it was noted that He abode 2 DAYS in the same place... does that mean to you that he went ELSEWHERE during the NIGHT, trettep?  And only "hung out" during the DAY?  :laughing7:

Let's face it brother trettep, ...you are just being completely ridiculous now, in order to maintain a ridiculous viewpoint which only entertains TIME as an entity that occurs during the 12 hours of DAYLIGHT...  :laughhand:  And that a "DAY" is just the DAYLIGHT portion...  :Chinscratch: --> :mnah:

A DAY is composed of EVENING ...AND... MORNING... there are 12 hours of DAYLIGHT in HALF a "DAY"... the other HALF of the DAY is NIGHT... and 12 hours within IT as well...

I guess you don't get much SLEEP there doya trettep?   Since there is NO "TIME" during the NIGHT (because Scripture doesn't note "NIGHT" TIME)... as for me, I get a good EIGHT HOURS per night... but let it be known that I do feel compassion for INSOMINIACS such as yourself, which cannot get ANY SLEEPTIME, since you don't believe that TIME does NOT exist during NON-DAYLIGHT periods...  :rolleye:

As you see it, (because there is no DAYLIGHT in the NIGHT, and the Scripture only notes 12 hours in a DAY") there are therefore NO HOURS in the NIGHT, and the NIGHT does not count as TIME... nor CONTAIN TIME...  (Hope you don't get any graveyard shifts, you won't be recieving a very big paycheck  :crywipe:)...  :LH:

Get outta here with this false BS, brother trettep!   :thumbdown:  (I don't mean leave, I mean it would be nice if you would cut the foolish and illogical, BS!  :boredom:)

Btw... Are you gonna "fess-up" to your other false notations?  :dontknow:  Or just continue to add to them...  :Chinscratch:

Quote from: trettep on July 24, 2009, 04:35:40 AMRom 1:20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Do you get that willie?  We are to understand God by the things that are MADE in this creation (kosmos).  Now where is timelessness to be understood by the things that are made?

By the "TEMPORAL state" in which the things that are MADE, participate and then FADE AWAY to DEATH... which "TEMPORAL state" happens to MARK TIME...

By the TIMELESS ONE who MADE THEM and PRECEEDED THEM and IS BEFORE ALL THINGS, ...before they became entities within the CREATION of TIME... for the WORD made all that was MADE... to include the DAYS of TIME, and simultaneously, within that TIME, ...brought forth the EARTH and HEAVENS, as well as ALL that in them ARE... uhhh... did you get that trettep?  :dontknow:

The TEMPORAL things that are MADE are evidences of the ETERNAL which ALWAYS IS... which is why we are confined to this PUNY little planet which is INSIGNIFICANT and INVISIBLE amongst an UNENDINGLY VAST UNIVERSE... uhhh, ...did you get that trettep?

The things MADE are evidences of the invisible ETERNALLY LIVING SPIRIT... for they are REFLECTIONS of it, ...IMAGES... which are projected into PHYSICALITY which IN TIME, ...are PASSING AWAY in their VAPOROUS and TEMPORAL existence... to DEATH in TIME...

Name ONE LIVING THING in TIME, ...outside the Earth and Stars... which has LIVED and MAINTAINED its existence, continuously since it's beginning...

Quote from: trettep on July 24, 2009, 04:35:40 AMCan you tell me what is made by which I should understand timelessness?

I could speak TRUTH till I was out of TIME... and you would still ARGUE against it trettep.  Though you are a nice guy, ...you have a VERY stubborn spirit... which fights against LOGIC as well as speaks UNSCRIPTURAL statements, yet requires SCRIPTURE from others... :pitiful:

What is "MADE" is the CLEAR evidence of a MAKER which PRECEEDED all of this... of course that is to simple for you to understand, as you are far too complex in your self ordination as a "teacher"... :laugh:

Such ridiculous stances must equate that most of the MEN which were "begat" as noted in Scripture, must've  been "begatted" by supernatural means since rarely are WOMEN ever mentioned in the GENEOLOGIES... is that your stance trettep?  Something like the "12 hours in a day" thing?   Since no women were mentioned, they must not have been taking part in the "begatting" thing -- eh?

Think about yourself and your positions trettep... I don't condemn you for your positions, (though I DO see them as stubborn), ...just find them clinging to ILLOGICAL and UNSCRIPTURAL... self observations... instead of REASONING reasonably... you make a day and TIME, confined to DAYLIGHT hours... :mnah:

:Peace:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Willie, I quite confident in what I have stated.  I have seen no reason to think otherwise.

Paul

Since we are talking about time a bit in this thread I thought I would post a note about TIME a bit more for others here that believe as I do that TIME always exists.  If you believe that TIME ceases to exist when this world ends then you will not understand this excerpt from Barnabas:

"CHAPTER XV.--THE FALSE AND THE TRUE SABBATH.

Further, also, it is written concerning the Sabbath in the Decalogue which [the Lord] spoke, face to face, to Moses on Mount Sinai, "And sanctify ye the Sabbath of the Lord with clean hands and a pure heart." And He says in another place, "If my sons keep the Sabbath, then will I cause my mercy to rest upon them." The Sabbath is mentioned at the beginning of the creation [thus]: "And God made in six days the works of His hands, and made an end on the seventh day, and rested on it, and sanctified it." Attend, my children, to the meaning of this expression, "He finished in six days." This implieth that the Lord will finish all things in six thousand years, for a day is with Him a thousand years. And He Himself testifieth, saying, "Behold, to-day will be as a thousand years." Therefore, my children, in six days, that is, in six thousand years, all things will be finished. "And He rested on the seventh day." This meaneth: when His Son, coming [again], shall destroy the time of the wicked man, and judge the ungodly, and change the-sun, and the moon, and the stars, then shall He truly rest on the seventh day. Moreover, He says, "Thou shalt sanctify it with pure hands and a pure heart." If, therefore, any one can now sanctify the day which God hath sanctified, except he is pure in heart in all things, we are deceived. Behold, therefore: certainly then one properly resting sanctifies it, when we ourselves, having received the promise, wickedness no longer existing, and all things having been made new by the Lord, shall be able to work righteousness. Then we shall be able to sanctify it, having been first sanctified ourselves. Further, He says to them, "Your new moons and your Sabbath I cannot endure." Ye perceive how He speaks: Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me, but that is which I have made, [namely this,] when, giving rest to all things, I shall make a beginning of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world. Wherefore, also, we keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead. And when He had manifested Himself, He ascended into the heavens. "

If anyone is interested in discussing any of this and the 8th day then I can start another thread on it.

Paul

Paul,

   the seventh Sabbath day is our day of rest..the beginning of

time no more. The eighth day is when He sends us to all our

own eternal estates.

   Everyone stays  and congregates for a family reunion until the

last child of God is raised[full number of gentiles/all Israel].

   celebration of harvest

Father then disperses to

each one his eternal inheritance[home/dwelling place] just like

when Israel entered into the promised land it was allotted.


   Our promised land is the eternal inheritance stored up for us..

  one thing different..it is eternal.We'll each have our own

  estates. portions...you will notice on the eighth day the

people are dispersed from temporary dwelling in booths and

sent to their own estates[inheritance]

  1 Kings 8 also gives insight on this when the Ark was brought

to the temple as part of celebrating during festival of Booths

   temporal dwelling in  tents with Israel and dedication of new

   temple. It came up in David's heart to make a permanent

dwelling place for God in Israel to honour him..

    thus the do unto others as you would have them do unto you..

   and Father's heart was set on making a permanent place for

  all Israel to dwell with Him in heaven.

   [the cloud filled the temple of the Lord]

    v 12  Then Solomon said ' the Lord has said that He would

dwell in dark clouds, I have indeed built a magnificient temple

for you, a place for you to dwell forever"

   Can you see the heart of your Father,here?


    I will tell you something else. when you are in the spirit,

time has no meaning. I have been in and out of the spiritual

realm.
and have discovered quite shockingly that so much time had

passed and I was unaware of it.


also in death you are conscious of nothing at all..time has

no meaning there,either.until you wake up.

  time ever get away from you,here? If not, it certainly will

 :cloud9: AMEN Sheila........Good post......... :thumbsup: I too have been in and out of the heavenly realm, caught up in the Spirit, seeing and hearing only that which the Father would have me to see and hear. Time passed  here.

A day is both night and daylight hours as Genesis 1 tells us, and represents the 24 elders around the throne. Blessings.....

QuoteI will tell you something else. when you are in the spirit,

time has no meaning. I have been in and out of the spiritual

realm.
and have discovered quite shockingly that so much time had

passed and I was unaware of it.

Shiela,
What if I told you that time has no meaning right now? Time only has whatever meaning we place on it because time is thought. If someone's thoughts are different, they will experience time differently. How much more different are God's thoughts than our own?

If you had no memory, what would your past be? It would be GONE.

Quote from: sheila on July 24, 2009, 06:46:29 PM
Paul,

   the seventh Sabbath day is our day of rest..the beginning of

time no more. The eighth day is when He sends us to all our

own eternal estates.

   Everyone stays  and congregates for a family reunion until the

last child of God is raised[full number of gentiles/all Israel].

   celebration of harvest

Father then disperses to

each one his eternal inheritance[home/dwelling place] just like

when Israel entered into the promised land it was allotted.


   Our promised land is the eternal inheritance stored up for us..

  one thing different..it is eternal.We'll each have our own

  estates. portions...you will notice on the eighth day the

people are dispersed from temporary dwelling in booths and

sent to their own estates[inheritance]

  1 Kings 8 also gives insight on this when the Ark was brought

to the temple as part of celebrating during festival of Booths

   temporal dwelling in  tents with Israel and dedication of new

   temple. It came up in David's heart to make a permanent

dwelling place for God in Israel to honour him..

    thus the do unto others as you would have them do unto you..

   and Father's heart was set on making a permanent place for

  all Israel to dwell with Him in heaven.

   [the cloud filled the temple of the Lord]

    v 12  Then Solomon said ' the Lord has said that He would

dwell in dark clouds, I have indeed built a magnificient temple

for you, a place for you to dwell forever"

   Can you see the heart of your Father,here?


    I will tell you something else. when you are in the spirit,

time has no meaning. I have been in and out of the spiritual

realm.
and have discovered quite shockingly that so much time had

passed and I was unaware of it.


also in death you are conscious of nothing at all..time has

no meaning there,either.until you wake up.

  time ever get away from you,here? If not, it certainly will

Sabbath is SEVENTH day.  Barnabas speaks of the 8th day (a further measurement of time), thus time doesn't end.  The reference to the 8th speaks proof that Time still exists.  The fact that Jesus was raised on the 8th day also signifies that in the resurrection we will be in the 8th day (a reference to TIME).

Paul

 have to be somewhere,catchya later! :HeartThrob:

What I think is not that TIME is to be erased, but that our MINDS will be elevated and empowered to be more like God's so that whatever He experiences, whether it be memory, intention, action, whatever, we will adopt HIS EXPERIENCE.

I do not see time erased in that, because I do not see time to be a finite entity, or a THING, or something to be discarded, because I see time simply as a regard of experiences (past/present/future). I do see that God's EXPERIENCES and His HIGHER UNDERSTANDING are infinitely larger and more expansive, as such to where words don't even do it justice.

So with that in mind, I don't see time being erased, only that our understanding and experience OF the progression of things, will be heightened to an infinitely larger degree.

Quote from: Zeek on July 24, 2009, 02:06:04 PM
and the pattern continues........ 

:thumbdown: :thumbdown:

I corrected my mistakes... and please, lighten up "pattern police"...  here's two back atcha:  :thumbdown:  :thumbdown:

Quote from: trettep on July 24, 2009, 04:47:56 PM
Willie, I quite confident in what I have stated.  I have seen no reason to think otherwise.

Paul

Get the same kind of reply from ET believers after explaining UR...  :dontknow:

Quote from: willieH on July 24, 2009, 08:37:32 PM

Quote from: trettep on July 24, 2009, 04:47:56 PM
Willie, I quite confident in what I have stated.  I have seen no reason to think otherwise.

Paul

Get the same kind of reply from ET believers after explaining UR...  :dontknow:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

I believe their response is just as geniune.  I sincerely believe they still believe in Eternal Torment because they haven't been given to understand otherwise.

Paul

Quote from: trettep on July 24, 2009, 05:00:35 PM
Since we are talking about time a bit in this thread I thought I would post a note about TIME a bit more for others here that believe as I do that TIME always exists.  If you believe that TIME ceases to exist when this world ends then you will not understand this excerpt from Barnabas:

"CHAPTER XV.--THE FALSE AND THE TRUE SABBATH.

Further, also, it is written concerning the Sabbath in the Decalogue which [the Lord] spoke, face to face, to Moses on Mount Sinai, "And sanctify ye the Sabbath of the Lord with clean hands and a pure heart." And He says in another place, "If my sons keep the Sabbath, then will I cause my mercy to rest upon them." The Sabbath is mentioned at the beginning of the creation [thus]: "And God made in six days the works of His hands, and made an end on the seventh day, and rested on it, and sanctified it." Attend, my children, to the meaning of this expression, "He finished in six days." This implieth that the Lord will finish all things in six thousand years, for a day is with Him a thousand years. And He Himself testifieth, saying, "Behold, to-day will be as a thousand years." Therefore, my children, in six days, that is, in six thousand years, all things will be finished. "And He rested on the seventh day." This meaneth: when His Son, coming [again], shall destroy the time of the wicked man, and judge the ungodly, and change the-sun, and the moon, and the stars, then shall He truly rest on the seventh day. Moreover, He says, "Thou shalt sanctify it with pure hands and a pure heart." If, therefore, any one can now sanctify the day which God hath sanctified, except he is pure in heart in all things, we are deceived. Behold, therefore: certainly then one properly resting sanctifies it, when we ourselves, having received the promise, wickedness no longer existing, and all things having been made new by the Lord, shall be able to work righteousness. Then we shall be able to sanctify it, having been first sanctified ourselves. Further, He says to them, "Your new moons and your Sabbath I cannot endure." Ye perceive how He speaks: Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me, but that is which I have made, [namely this,] when, giving rest to all things, I shall make a beginning of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world. Wherefore, also, we keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead. And when He had manifested Himself, He ascended into the heavens. "

If anyone is interested in discussing any of this and the 8th day then I can start another thread on it.

Paul

:omg:  "BARNABAS"?  This "proves" something, does it?  :dontknow:

Couldn't find any Scripture to quote... so you quote writings OUTSIDE of it... Will you be quoting Steven King or Barrack Obama, next trettep?  :Chinscratch:

Using BOTH the OLD and NEW Testaments...

I can SCRIPTURALLY PROVE that JESUS rose on the SABBATH DAY... but, that would be unacceptable to you...

Quote from: trettep on July 24, 2009, 08:44:55 PM

Quote from: willieH on July 24, 2009, 08:37:32 PM

Quote from: trettep on July 24, 2009, 04:47:56 PM
Willie, I quite confident in what I have stated.  I have seen no reason to think otherwise.

Paul

Get the same kind of reply from ET believers after explaining UR...  :dontknow:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

I believe their response is just as geniune.  I sincerely believe they still believe in Eternal Torment because they haven't been given to understand otherwise.

Paul

I did NOT say their response was not sincere or genuine... nor do I say that to you... (btw, I removed the remarks to you in my post last nite, that were unnecessary and apologize for them)

The point I make, is that:  I noted that the TRUTH was given, and refused... which is as I have maintained with you, throughout this conversation...

Only GOD can enlighten... and DOES SO, according to HIS PURPOSE and AGENDA...  :dontknow: 

The TRUTH on any given subject, can be (and IS) presented and refused, for it is not GIVEN to everyone... :nod:

Quote from: willieH on July 24, 2009, 08:46:30 PM

Quote from: trettep on July 24, 2009, 05:00:35 PM
Since we are talking about time a bit in this thread I thought I would post a note about TIME a bit more for others here that believe as I do that TIME always exists.  If you believe that TIME ceases to exist when this world ends then you will not understand this excerpt from Barnabas:

"CHAPTER XV.--THE FALSE AND THE TRUE SABBATH.

Further, also, it is written concerning the Sabbath in the Decalogue which [the Lord] spoke, face to face, to Moses on Mount Sinai, "And sanctify ye the Sabbath of the Lord with clean hands and a pure heart." And He says in another place, "If my sons keep the Sabbath, then will I cause my mercy to rest upon them." The Sabbath is mentioned at the beginning of the creation [thus]: "And God made in six days the works of His hands, and made an end on the seventh day, and rested on it, and sanctified it." Attend, my children, to the meaning of this expression, "He finished in six days." This implieth that the Lord will finish all things in six thousand years, for a day is with Him a thousand years. And He Himself testifieth, saying, "Behold, to-day will be as a thousand years." Therefore, my children, in six days, that is, in six thousand years, all things will be finished. "And He rested on the seventh day." This meaneth: when His Son, coming [again], shall destroy the time of the wicked man, and judge the ungodly, and change the-sun, and the moon, and the stars, then shall He truly rest on the seventh day. Moreover, He says, "Thou shalt sanctify it with pure hands and a pure heart." If, therefore, any one can now sanctify the day which God hath sanctified, except he is pure in heart in all things, we are deceived. Behold, therefore: certainly then one properly resting sanctifies it, when we ourselves, having received the promise, wickedness no longer existing, and all things having been made new by the Lord, shall be able to work righteousness. Then we shall be able to sanctify it, having been first sanctified ourselves. Further, He says to them, "Your new moons and your Sabbath I cannot endure." Ye perceive how He speaks: Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me, but that is which I have made, [namely this,] when, giving rest to all things, I shall make a beginning of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world. Wherefore, also, we keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead. And when He had manifested Himself, He ascended into the heavens. "

If anyone is interested in discussing any of this and the 8th day then I can start another thread on it.

Paul

...UNSCRIPTURAL...

:omg:  "BARNABAS"?  This "proves" something, does it?  :dontknow:

Couldn't find any Scripture to quote... so you quote writings OUTSIDE of it... Will you be quoting Steven King or Barrack Obama, next trettep?  :Chinscratch:

Using BOTH the OLD and NEW Testaments...

I can SCRIPTURALLY PROVE that JESUS rose on the SABBATH DAY... but, that would be unacceptable to you...

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Barnabas is scripture.  You should all be embracing the Epistle of Barnabas.  Its also part of Codex Sinaiticus.

Paul

Quote from: willieH on July 24, 2009, 08:54:06 PM

Quote from: trettep on July 24, 2009, 08:44:55 PM

Quote from: willieH on July 24, 2009, 08:37:32 PM

Quote from: trettep on July 24, 2009, 04:47:56 PM
Willie, I quite confident in what I have stated.  I have seen no reason to think otherwise.

Paul

Get the same kind of reply from ET believers after explaining UR...  :dontknow:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

I believe their response is just as geniune.  I sincerely believe they still believe in Eternal Torment because they haven't been given to understand otherwise.

Paul

I did NOT say their response was not sincere or genuine... nor do I say that to you... (btw, I removed the remarks to you in my post last nite, that were unnecessary and apologize for them)

The point I make, is that:  I noted that the TRUTH was given, and refused... which is as I have maintained with you, throughout this conversation...

Only GOD can enlighten... and DOES SO, according to HIS PURPOSE and AGENDA...  :dontknow: 

The TRUTH on any given subject, can be (and IS) presented and refused, for it is not GIVEN to everyone... :nod:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Where we disagree in your statement here is that I don't believe you gave me the Truth.  So I didn't refuse the Truth.  How can you say you agree with the first point and then say that I refused the Truth if I don't believe what you gave was the Truth in the first place?  See Willie, Jesus and His ministry is about persuasion.  You have resorted to attacks and comments that you have had to go back and delete or apologize for.  Shouldn't that tell you something about the spirit that you are perceiving the "Truth" with?  I'm am trying to help Willie, and I do want to believe you.  I want to believe everyone.  But God gave me logic and from what I have been given and when utilized I can't find the logic to embrace what your saying as True on this particular subject.

Paul

Quote from: trettep on July 24, 2009, 08:59:54 PM
Where we disagree in your statement here is that I don't believe you gave me the Truth.  So I didn't refuse the Truth.

That you don't "believe" I gave you TRUTH, does not make the "belief" valid...

Neither did they when UR was presented to them trettep... those who are not given to KNOW the truth, will refuse it when it is presented, which IS the point...  :dontknow:  And which is why YOU reject it.  :pitiful:

Quote from: trettep on July 24, 2009, 08:59:54 PMHow can you say you agree with the first point and then say that I refused the Truth if I don't believe what you gave was the Truth in the first place?

Paul... you fail to understand that in the progression of the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST, which is the "revelation" of the WORD of GOD... that many are called, few are chosen...

Many shall respond and call JESUS Lord for they are enabled to do so by GOD, and such (calling JESUS Lord) IS a Revelation of the TRUTH, for JESUS IS the Lord and Savior of ALL... yet they are NOT CHOSEN to KNOW the TRUTH in many other areas,  ...As is noted and evidenced in Matt 7:22-23...

It is evident in CHRISTIANITY which names many (even MOST) of its essential teachings which are NOT named or found in the BIBLE -- such as "trinity -- rapture -- Eternal separation from God -- free will -- Hell -- spiritual Israel -- going to Heaven --  fallen angels -- satan as a being", ...the list is sorrowfully long as well as sorrowfully wrong. (pretty poetic eh?  :laughing7:)

As I have stated several times... YOU cannot teach ME, and vice-versa... what happens is GOD annoints the words which carry truth and POINT to HIS WORD, ...NOT that which points to one's "opinion" or "EXTERNAL writings"...

It is HIS WORD that thereby REVEALS to those who are CHOSEN to KNOW IT...

That does not mean that either YOU ...OR I, shall in this discussion, be bearing TRUTH... what it MEANS is that both of us are to remain submitted to Him faithfully, and thereby CAN be USED By Him, if HE so chooses... 

If He chooses to reveal TRUTH to either of us... and we are submitted, He can thereby use ones words to speak to another... using HIS WORD in the process...

In the mean time... we both shall stand upon what we presently BELIEVE (which we should, but continue to seek and remain open)... and which, just like the "ET folks"... are SINCERE and GENUINE in their positions, can later be found potentially erroneous when compared to the HOLY TRUTH on any given matter or doctrine...

Quote from: trettep on July 24, 2009, 08:59:54 PMSee Willie, Jesus and His ministry is about persuasion.  You have resorted to attacks and comments that you have had to go back and delete or apologize for.

:omg:  How sorrowful of you to take my apology and use it against me...  I admitted losing patience with you... and have endeavored in writing before ALL to repent of it.   But instead of practicing the GRACE of FORGIVENESS... you wish to take my apology and further "beat me with it"... This only serves as a degradation of yourself Paul...  :sigh:

That I am a man, and admittedly I have flaws and those flaws do surface from time to time as I walk as a man... it is at time unfortunate for those who suffer me...

But when I make an apology for those mistakes, it testifies to the presence of the GRACE of the INNER MAN, when HUMILITY is displayed before any I might offend, within those faults...

That you respond by TRAMPLING upon that display TESTIFIES of the "spirit" with which you deal with a brother, namely me.  :sigh: 

You thereby display the "spirit" of UNFORGIVENESS...

When YOU admitted to ONE of your (several) UNBIBLICAL propositions here ("ETERNITY is a span of TIME")...  I ...commended that admission... HERE:

Quote from: willieH on July 24, 2009, 03:59:58 AM

Quote from: trettep on July 24, 2009, 02:55:48 AMBut let me tell you, just as the scriptures don't say that "Eternity is a span of Time", it also doesn't say "God will save trettep".

Nice to see you admit that one of your statements is not mentioned in the WORD...  :thumbsup:  I commend you for it!  :happygrin:

Instead of verbally slapping you further concerning this statement... I commended your humility and admission.  Unfortunately you are unable to practice this before me... by GRACEFULLY accepting my apology.  Instead you point out the mistake and attempt to enlarge upon it!   :sigh:

You have more than Scriptural TRUTH to learn brother Paul... your heart is in a hardened condition, and does not know to respond to HUMILITY with the instructions given by the WORD:

1 John 4:19-20 -- if love your brother you shall FORGIVE him - (you have NOT)
Matt 5:44 -- forgive enemies -- who are enemies? (You have NOT)
Matt 10:36 -- foes = members of your own household... (speaks for itself)

I have thoroughly explained my position USING SCRIPTURE to establish that position -- something YOU have NOT DONE...  Instead you offer writings OUTSIDE of SCRIPTURE to try to "substanciate" your beliefs as valid...  :thumbdown:  Which is as effective quoting a "Hal Lindsay" book...

Quote from: trettep on July 24, 2009, 08:59:54 PMShouldn't that tell you something about the spirit that you are perceiving the "Truth" with?  I'm am trying to help Willie, and I do want to believe you.  I want to believe everyone.  But God gave me logic and from what I have been given and when utilized I can't find the logic to embrace what your saying as True on this particular subject.

:Yeahright:  ...Now within your UNFORGIVING SPIRIT, you wish to go all "spiritual" on me -- "trying to help"...   :sigh:

If GOD gave you LOGIC... you would STAY in the WORD, and use SCRIPTURAL foundations for your beliefs, instead of wandering OUTSIDE of it, and embracing NON-SCRIPTURAL documents, as well as embracing your own "opinion" which makes statements which are UNSCRIPTURAL, as well as ADDING to the TEXT, that which is NOT THERE, ...which I have already shown in this thread is your practice...

Stating things which ARE NOT found in Scripture and which you will NOT admit to -- such as: "TIME itself is an ATTRIBUTE of GOD" (or the retracted) "ETERNITY is a SPAN of TIME"...

ADDING to Scripture "divine nature" (unmentioned) to Mal 3:6, as well as noting that this ADDITION is in reference to "HIS PERSON, and/or HIS SPIRIT" which are also UNMENTIONED in the text of Mal 3:6

Now, because you are UNABLE to prove your beliefs with SCRIPTURE, you offer (to "prove" or "substanciate" your beliefs) with writings which are EXTERNAL of Scripture -- namely: "BARNABAS"  :mshock:

BARNABAS is no more Scripture than is "Left behind"... GOD maintains His WORD... and the writing of BARNABAS is NOT considered as SCRIPTURE.  If it were, it would appear in the canon of SCRIPTURE... which it does not. 

Name one version of TRANSLATED SCRIPTURE which includes this writing of "BARNABAS"...

BARNABAS is an early "Christian" writing, and there are MANY such writings... THEY are NOT SCRIPTURE, ...just personal writings of testimony and/or commentary of those within "Christian" belief, ...much in the same way as BILLY GRAHAM's writings shall one day be considered in the distant future... Billy Graham does not WRITE SCRIPTURE... He comments from his viewpoint, upon SCRIPTURE... just as we are doing here trettep...

As the Apostles John & Paul were continually warning others of the pollutions in and around the early church... the writings of men such as BARNABAS were subject to these pollutions...

You are welcome to believe anything you wish... it is not my concern.  Personally, I believe that GOD maintains control over HIS WORD... which is why the ENTIRE canon of SCRIPTURE  is found amidst the CATHOLIC Bible... for it is the common ground that ALL can stand upon and find communication...

If we must travel outside the canon... we are seeking to found our beliefs on UNCOMMON GROUND... which is where YOU and I shall further separate...  If BARNABAS is an example of what is to come in your endeavor to substanciate your views... we shall "bump heads" often.

You are UNABLE found your beliefs on the BIBLE AS it is WRITTEN, and as is agreed in common within Christianity (by GOD's ORDINATION)...  So you endeavor to substanciate your beliefs with EXTERNAL writings...

If your beliefs were BIBLICAL, you would found them on the WORD we share in common... The fact is that YOU CANNOT...  and any such EXTERNAL usage is INVALID (except to you)

You are FORCED to go outside of the WORD, in this discussion, by -- (1) falsely self created UNBIBLICAL statements by YOU and by -- (2)  ADDITIONS to the WORD, made by YOU, and as if that is NOT enough, by -- (3)  seeking documents OUTSIDE of the BIBLE to prove and substanciate your "beliefs"...

This is the format of DELUSION... which GOD said that He would send...  :sigh: -- 2 Thess 2:10-11 --

I pray for you bro...  :Pray:

Willie, I believe as I believe because what you say to me is NOT perceived as Truth.  Whether you believe it is or not doesn't make it so.  God has to convince my heart of it but contrarywise, He has given to me to believe at this moment that Time ALWAYS exists and has given me scriptures to support this.  I have given you those scriptures and you disagreed with my interpretation of them.  I disagree with your interpretation on this topic.  To me TIME ALWAYS EXISTS as GOD EXISTS!!!  Days, weeks, months, years are just measurements of Time and are not TIME itself.  I continue to believe in LONGSUFFERING and PATIENCE and the ORDERLY performance of God's Salvation for all.  These things all happen in TIME. 

Paul

I wasn't really familiar with the Gospel of Barnabas...is this the one under consideration?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Barnabas

"The Gospel of Barnabas claims that Jesus predicted the advent of Muhammad, thus conforming with the Qur'an which mentions:  "And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of an Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad. But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, this is evident sorcery!" (Sura 61:6)
(Ahmad is another name of Muhammad.)

The Gospel of Barnabas was little known outside academic circles until recent times, when a number of Muslims have taken to publishing it in order to argue against the orthodox Christian conception of Jesus. It generally resonates better with existing Muslim views than with Christianity

This work bears strong parallels with the Islamic faith, not only mentioning Muhammad by name, but including the shahadah (chapter 39). It is strongly anti-Pauline and anti-Trinitarian in tone. In this work, Jesus is described as a prophet and not the son of God

Some students of the work argue for an Italian origin [23], noting phrases in Barnabas which are very similar to phrases used by Dante [24] and suggesting that the author of Barnabas borrowed from Dante's works; they take the Spanish version's preface to support this conclusion..."

what's more perspective on this?  Thanks, James.

About 600 years, Jab?

That's one thing that struck me.  I'm not sure how accurate this info is, it was but a quick look.  But it sounds like it MAY be only several hundred years old...though there's a claim that a copy was found with Barnabas' corpse  :dontknow:.  I went into it thinking there might be some cool stuff there to read, then found the above info...again, don't know how accurate, and probably more to the story, but so far    :mshock:

Quote from: jabcat on July 25, 2009, 01:38:59 AM
I wasn't really familiar with the Gospel of Barnabas...is this the one under consideration?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Barnabas

"The Gospel of Barnabas claims that Jesus predicted the advent of Muhammad, thus conforming with the Qur'an which mentions:  "And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of an Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad. But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, this is evident sorcery!" (Sura 61:6)
(Ahmad is another name of Muhammad.)

The Gospel of Barnabas was little known outside academic circles until recent times, when a number of Muslims have taken to publishing it in order to argue against the orthodox Christian conception of Jesus. It generally resonates better with existing Muslim views than with Christianity

This work bears strong parallels with the Islamic faith, not only mentioning Muhammad by name, but including the shahadah (chapter 39). It is strongly anti-Pauline and anti-Trinitarian in tone. In this work, Jesus is described as a prophet and not the son of God

Some students of the work argue for an Italian origin [23], noting phrases in Barnabas which are very similar to phrases used by Dante [24] and suggesting that the author of Barnabas borrowed from Dante's works; they take the Spanish version's preface to support this conclusion..."

what's more perspective on this?  Thanks, James.

No Jabcat, the Epistle of Barnabas.  Not the Gospel of Barnabas.  Check here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistle_of_Barnabas

And for the translation that I use:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/barnabas-roberts.html

That writing will open your eyes about Jewish sacrifices and food abstinence.

Paul

 :laugh:  Silly me.  The Cambridge Police Department acted stupidly.  Oops.  Should've gotten more facts  :wink:. 

I'll check it, thanks!

willieH:  :winkgrin:

Unapologetically you continue:

Quote from: trettep on July 25, 2009, 12:22:39 AM
Willie, I believe as I believe because what you say to me is NOT perceived as Truth.  Whether you believe it is or not doesn't make it so.

And so we agree on something... Just because YOU believe what you do doesnt make it so either...  :dontknow:

Quote from: trettep on July 25, 2009, 12:22:39 AMGod has to convince my heart of it but contrarywise, He has given to me to believe at this moment that Time ALWAYS exists and has given me scriptures to support this.

I have already noted this!  Do you read my posts at all?  You have provided NOTHING that Scripturally except quoting UNBIBLICAL books such as BARNABAS...  to support your UNBIBLICAL statements, and have ADDED to Scripture in order to support your belief (as you did several times, with Mal 3:6)

Quote from: trettep on July 25, 2009, 12:22:39 AMI have given you those scriptures and you disagreed with my interpretation of them.

BARNABUS is not Scripture Paul... 

You haven't given anything, just made several wreckless unfounded and UNBIBLICAL statements...  :thumbdown:

Quote from: trettep on July 25, 2009, 12:22:39 AMI disagree with your interpretation on this topic.

Wow!  What a revelation!  :laughing7:  ...backatcha bro... I disagree with your ideas that there is only 12 hours in a DAY, and that a DAY is not TIME rather is just a measurement... :rolleye:

Quote from: trettep on July 25, 2009, 12:22:39 AMTo me TIME ALWAYS EXISTS as GOD EXISTS!!!  Days, weeks, months, years are just measurements of Time and are not TIME itself.

What do you think TIME IS trettep?  You do not think TIME is found to be a moving entity which is measured in seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, years, decades, centuries and millenniums?

I got news for you... you shall find out that indeed TIME is the TOOL of DEATH, EVIL and DECAY, and it WILL end...

NOW is not TIME, for NOW has NO BEGINNING, nor shall it EVER END for NOW is the ETERNAL...

Which is why NOW is the DAY of Salvation... NOW is the accepted TIME... we are to be concerned with NOW, for ALL TIME is found IN NOW...

Quote from: trettep on July 25, 2009, 12:22:39 AMI continue to believe in LONGSUFFERING and PATIENCE and the ORDERLY performance of God's Salvation for all.  These things all happen in TIME.

But LONGSUFFERING, PATIENCE and ORDERLY performance of GOD's SALVATION shall END and find its destiny in their COMPLETION -- which is ETERNITY...

TIME is an INCOMPLETE entity... you just avoid it...

I am not concerned with your beliefs (which are IMO decieved) you can believe elephants can tie square knots if you so choose... Rather, I am concerned that your UNSCRIPTURAL ideas may mislead others... as you have continually made Unscriptural statements in this thread, as well as additions to SCRIPTURAL texts, in order to support those UNSCRIPTURAL ideas...

Back to the subject here.  Anyone here that favors the preaching of "personal savior" theology that can throw a verse out that shows the Apostles preaching such a personal approach to acceptence?

Paul

Quote from: trettep on July 25, 2009, 03:24:31 PM
Back to the subject here.  Anyone here that favors the preaching of "personal savior" theology that can throw a verse out that shows the Apostles preaching such a personal approach to acceptence?

Paul

Ro 10:9 that, if ever you should be avowing with your mouth the declaration that Jesus is Lord, and should be believing in your heart  that God rouses Him outfrom among the dead, you shall be saved.

Rom 1:3  Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Rom 1:8  First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

1Co 1:2  Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and  ours:

good ones guys  :icon_flower:


well I always believe Jesus  words , and this says it all for me here
:HeartThrob:


Jhn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God. 

1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word  which by the gospel is preached unto you.   

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 25, 2009, 04:39:42 PM

Quote from: trettep on July 25, 2009, 03:24:31 PM
Back to the subject here.  Anyone here that favors the preaching of "personal savior" theology that can throw a verse out that shows the Apostles preaching such a personal approach to acceptence?

Paul

Ro 10:9 that, if ever you should be avowing with your mouth the declaration that Jesus is Lord, and should be believing in your heart  that God rouses Him outfrom among the dead, you shall be saved.

Thanks Paul. 

Paul

Quote from: Zeek on July 25, 2009, 04:49:49 PM
Rom 1:3  Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Rom 1:8  First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Those actually don't seem "personal" to me.

Paul

Quote from: Zeek on July 25, 2009, 04:55:12 PM
1Co 1:2  Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and  ours:

Again, this one doesn't appear "personal" either.  Personal implies to me to be individually attached.   Maybe we view "personal" in "personal savior" differently?

Paul

Regarding time, I found this definition which will explain how time is not an entity, nor something that was created to end:

time
the system of those sequential relations that any event has to any other, as past, present, or future; indefinite and continuous duration regarded as that in which events succeed one another.

Time can refer to two things: a distinct period, or sequential relationships REGARDED as events which succeed one to another. For example, if I say that I was happy for a time, I am talking about a specific age, or duration. But if I am talking about time itself, I am refering to the perception of sequential events. BOTH however, are all in regard to thought, to perception.

Time is not a created entity, nor is it a tool for decay. The tool for decay of a rock is the following: wind, rain, bacteria, etc etc etc. When a rock decays it happens as those elements deteriorate the rock in a succession of now moments, that we REGARD as passing into history, which in reality don't pass anywhere. HOWEVER, if something is not able to be decayed, that does not mean it does not take part in a succession of events which can be regarded to have occurred.

Taking a look at Genesis 1, we can see the consistency in this defintion of time: the mental regard of sequential events.

Genesis
3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. (event 1)
4 And God saw that the light was good (event 2). And God separated the light from the darkness (event 3).
5 God CALLED the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

We see here that before anything was RECKONED to be a day, there was a succession of events that flowed from one to the other. For example, AFTER God said "let there be light" he saw the light was good. We see time existing here before any such thing as a "day" exists. FURTHERMORE, we see that what is actually created, is not time, or a day, but LIGHT and the separation of light from dark. That separation is REGARDED to be day and night, and evening and morning: day one.

If a sequence occurs, it is automatically time because time is NOTHING, but a system of duration in which events are REGARDED to occur in succession. Time does not NEED to be created because it is simply the regard for events in sequence as happening one after the other, like music. That is why I say time is thought. However, the ACTUAL experience is only happening in the NOW.

There IS no past, in that events are not occuring in the past. The past is simply a collection of events which HAVE occurs according to memory. Since God's mind is infinite, so is time. And since progression DEPENDS on sequential events time never began, and never ended. If all is FROZEN and nothing ever occurs, even the awareness of life as continuing to be, then time would not exist.

That is what, I think, Sparrow's sense of fear comes from. The concept of "Timelessness" demands a frozen state of inactivity, which I think is false and does spread fear. However, if we distinguish time from measurements of time, I could say that the measuring of time may end, but not progression itself. So time itself would not end, just how we measure it or whether or not we do measure it.

------------

What can end is the ages. The measurements of time: day, seconds, years, millenniums each have an end, and they are also simply mental measurements which in themselves have no meaning other than what we regard. Time does not exist in "now." NOW does not have any volume, so nothing exists IN the now. Rather, "now" is a component of time, in which events are actualized and experienced, whereas past and future are nothing but mental regard for what has occurred and what will occur.

Quote from: trettep on July 25, 2009, 06:14:37 PM

Quote from: Zeek on July 25, 2009, 04:55:12 PM
1Co 1:2  Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and  ours:

Again, this one doesn't appear "personal" either.  Personal implies to me to be individually attached.   Maybe we view "personal" in "personal savior" differently?

Paul

To me, the relationship is like that of "sexual intercourse", ONE with each other.  I personally don't know what could be more personal.

"IN Christ" and "Christ in me".

 :cloud9: That's true, Zeek, but in this case, He already "had" us.......we just didn't know it. Blessings....

Quote from: Seth on July 25, 2009, 06:40:42 PM
Regarding time, I found this definition which will explain how time is not an entity, nor something that will end:

time
the system of those sequential relations that any event has to any other, as past, present, or future; indefinite and continuous duration regarded as that in which events succeed one another.

Time can refer to two things: a distinct period, or sequential relationships REGARDED as events which succeed one to another. For example, if I say that I was happy for a time, I am talking about a specific age, or duration. But if I am talking about time itself, I am refering to the perception of sequential events. BOTH however, are all in regard to thought, to perception.

Time is not a created entity, nor is it a tool for decay. The tool for decay of a rock is the following: wind, rain, bacteria, etc etc etc. When a rock decays it happens as those elements deteriorate the rock in a succession of now moments, that we REGARD as passing into history, which in reality don't pass anywhere. HOWEVER, if something is not able to be decayed, that does not mean it does not take part in a succession of events which can be regarded to have occurred.

Taking a look at Genesis 1, we can see the consistency in this defintion of time: the mental regard of sequential events.

Genesis
3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. (event 1)
4 And God saw that the light was good (event 2). And God separated the light from the darkness (event 3).
5 God CALLED the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

We see here that before anything was RECKONED to be a day, there was a succession of events that flowed from one to the other. For example, AFTER God said "let there be light" he saw the light was good. We see time existing here before any such thing as a "day" exists. FURTHERMORE, we see that what is actually created, is not time, or a day, but LIGHT and the separation of light from dark. That separation is REGARDED to be day and night, and evening and morning: day one.

If a sequence occurs, it is automatically time because time is NOTHING, but a system of duration in which events are REGARDED to occur in succession. Time does not NEED to be created because it is simply the regard for events in sequence as happening one after the other, like music. That is why I say time is thought. However, the ACTUAL experience is only happening in the NOW.

There IS no past, in that events are not occuring in the past. The past is simply a collection of events which HAVE occurs according to memory. Since God's mind is infinite, so is time. And since progression DEPENDS on sequential events time never began, and never ended. If all is FROZEN and nothing ever occurs, even the awareness of life as continuing to be, then time would not exist.

That is what, I think, Sparrow's sense of fear comes from. The concept of "Timelessness" demands a frozen state of inactivity, which I think is false and does spread fear. However, if we distinguish time from measurements of time, I could say that the measuring of time may end, but not progression itself. So time itself would not end, just how we measure it or whether or not we do measure it.

------------

What can end is the ages. The measurements of time: day, seconds, years, millenniums each have an end, and they are also simply mental measurements which in themselves have no meaning other than what we regard. Time does not exist in "now." NOW does not have any volume, so nothing exists IN the now. Rather, "now" is a component of time, in which events are actualized and experienced, whereas past and future are nothing but mental regard for what has occurred and what will occur.

You said that timelessness would demands a frozen state of inactivity.  That is how I see it also.  This is why I said that Time is As God is.  For God is the sustaining force for everything - thus while everything is sustaining it would mean that Time marches continues.  This is why Longsuffering and Patience etc... require Time. 

Paul

Quote from: trettep on July 25, 2009, 06:14:37 PM

Quote from: Zeek on July 25, 2009, 04:55:12 PM
1Co 1:2  Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and  ours:

Again, this one doesn't appear "personal" either.  Personal implies to me to be individually attached.   Maybe we view "personal" in "personal savior" differently?

Paul

I think there are several ways to view "personal" as you say there. I think it is a good point to consider what one means by "personal."

Personal can be seen as (from the Oxford American Dictionary):

1) affecting or belonging to a particular person (one may have a personal fortune worth a few million)
2) of or concerning one's private life (my personal, private life was affected by the salvation from my slavery to sin)
3) referring to a person's body (personal hygene)
4) existing as a self-aware entity, not as an abstraction or an impersonal force (Jews, Christians and Muslims believe in a personal God)

Quote from: trettep on July 25, 2009, 09:07:01 PM

Quote from: Seth on July 25, 2009, 06:40:42 PM
Regarding time, I found this definition which will explain how time is not an entity, nor something that will end:

time
the system of those sequential relations that any event has to any other, as past, present, or future; indefinite and continuous duration regarded as that in which events succeed one another.

Time can refer to two things: a distinct period, or sequential relationships REGARDED as events which succeed one to another. For example, if I say that I was happy for a time, I am talking about a specific age, or duration. But if I am talking about time itself, I am refering to the perception of sequential events. BOTH however, are all in regard to thought, to perception.

Time is not a created entity, nor is it a tool for decay. The tool for decay of a rock is the following: wind, rain, bacteria, etc etc etc. When a rock decays it happens as those elements deteriorate the rock in a succession of now moments, that we REGARD as passing into history, which in reality don't pass anywhere. HOWEVER, if something is not able to be decayed, that does not mean it does not take part in a succession of events which can be regarded to have occurred.

Taking a look at Genesis 1, we can see the consistency in this defintion of time: the mental regard of sequential events.

Genesis
3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. (event 1)
4 And God saw that the light was good (event 2). And God separated the light from the darkness (event 3).
5 God CALLED the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

We see here that before anything was RECKONED to be a day, there was a succession of events that flowed from one to the other. For example, AFTER God said "let there be light" he saw the light was good. We see time existing here before any such thing as a "day" exists. FURTHERMORE, we see that what is actually created, is not time, or a day, but LIGHT and the separation of light from dark. That separation is REGARDED to be day and night, and evening and morning: day one.

If a sequence occurs, it is automatically time because time is NOTHING, but a system of duration in which events are REGARDED to occur in succession. Time does not NEED to be created because it is simply the regard for events in sequence as happening one after the other, like music. That is why I say time is thought. However, the ACTUAL experience is only happening in the NOW.

There IS no past, in that events are not occuring in the past. The past is simply a collection of events which HAVE occurs according to memory. Since God's mind is infinite, so is time. And since progression DEPENDS on sequential events time never began, and never ended. If all is FROZEN and nothing ever occurs, even the awareness of life as continuing to be, then time would not exist.

That is what, I think, Sparrow's sense of fear comes from. The concept of "Timelessness" demands a frozen state of inactivity, which I think is false and does spread fear. However, if we distinguish time from measurements of time, I could say that the measuring of time may end, but not progression itself. So time itself would not end, just how we measure it or whether or not we do measure it.

------------

What can end is the ages. The measurements of time: day, seconds, years, millenniums each have an end, and they are also simply mental measurements which in themselves have no meaning other than what we regard. Time does not exist in "now." NOW does not have any volume, so nothing exists IN the now. Rather, "now" is a component of time, in which events are actualized and experienced, whereas past and future are nothing but mental regard for what has occurred and what will occur.

You said that timelessness would demands a frozen state of inactivity.  That is how I see it also.  This is why I said that Time is As God is.  For God is the sustaining force for everything - thus while everything is sustaining it would mean that Time marches continues.  This is why Longsuffering and Patience etc... require Time. 

Paul

:iagree:

Amen

Quote from: trettep on July 25, 2009, 09:07:01 PM
You said that timelessness would demands a frozen state of inactivity.  That is how I see it also.  This is why I said that Time is As God is.  For God is the sustaining force for everything - thus while everything is sustaining it would mean that Time marches continues.  This is why Longsuffering and Patience etc... require Time. 

Paul

Thought you were confining your comments to the topic...  :laughing7:

Quote from: Seth on July 25, 2009, 09:27:09 PM

Quote from: trettep on July 25, 2009, 06:14:37 PM

Quote from: Zeek on July 25, 2009, 04:55:12 PM
1Co 1:2  Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and  ours:

Again, this one doesn't appear "personal" either.  Personal implies to me to be individually attached.   Maybe we view "personal" in "personal savior" differently?

Paul

I think there are several ways to view "personal" as you say there. I think it is a good point to consider what one means by "personal."

Personal can be seen as (from the Oxford American Dictionary):

1) affecting or belonging to a particular person (one may have a personal fortune worth a few million)
2) of or concerning one's private life (my personal, private life was affected by the salvation from my slavery to sin)
3) referring to a person's body (personal hygene)
4) existing as a self-aware entity, not as an abstraction or an impersonal force (Jews, Christians and Muslims believe in a personal God)

Well this lends support to why I think we shouldn't use the phrase.  Because it CAN be defined as #1 which is the primary definition.  In the case of #1 someone would be believing Jesus to be their own savior and that those that don't have Him are out of the loop for salvation.  That was the premise for my OP.

Paul

Quote from: willieH on July 25, 2009, 09:43:57 PM

Quote from: trettep on July 25, 2009, 09:07:01 PM
You said that timelessness would demands a frozen state of inactivity.  That is how I see it also.  This is why I said that Time is As God is.  For God is the sustaining force for everything - thus while everything is sustaining it would mean that Time marches continues.  This is why Longsuffering and Patience etc... require Time. 

Paul

Thought you were confining your comments to the topic...  :laughing7:

...willieH  :laughing7:

I was just diverting it back on topic Willie but the thread can move where it will and I will get it back on topic where I can.  I didn't criticise anyone for diverting.  If someone has something to say here - just say it.

Paul

willieH: Hi trettep...  :happygrin:

Thanks for your permission Paul (not that I needed it)...  :shakepoint: :laughhand:

Quote from: trettep on July 25, 2009, 09:07:01 PM
You said that timelessness would demands a frozen state of inactivity.  That is how I see it also.

That is just opinion made of TIME from an (limited/finite) observational point WITHIN it...

One can be amidst the OCEAN and look in any direction, and see NO END or BEGINNING to it... that does not mean the OCEAN is FOREVER... nor does it mean that it hasn't any boundaries, whatsoever...

"TIMELESSNESS" just demands that NOW not be measured in terms of past, present, future... which is the only way we as finites are able to observe... and TIME, within its PROGRESSION, takes ALL THINGS within IT, from  a "BEGINNING" to an "END"... rather, the ETERNAL takes all positions within TIME and IS SIMULATANEOULY among them... as I explain below with John 3:13 -- read it... it is informative.

Which is WHY CHRIST (who has no beginning or end -- Heb 13:8)... IS the BEGINNING and END of ALL THINGS -- Rev 1:8 -- 1:11 -- 21:6 -- 22:13 -- Col 1:17 

Beginning and End of what?  Of ALL THINGS and their involvement in TIME which is the EXPERIENTIAL realm of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...

JESUS noted that:  "BEFORE Abraham WAS, ...I AM" ...these are 2 different positions noted here:
 
(1) Before Abraham had his life experience in TIME... (2) CHRIST IS.



JOHN 3:12

JESUS had been noting the "born again" teaching, and Nicodemus was incredulous at the proposal... and then JESUS said -- "Art thou a MASTER of Israel, and knowest not THESE THINGS?" -- Expectant of Nicodemus to grasp the concepts that He just told him...

He then noted to Nicodemus that it was enough for him to BELIEVE "earthly things", and that when told, he had trouble with THAT! ...and then noted that the telling of "Heavenly things" would stretch him beyond his capabilty to "BELIEVE"...

John 3:12  I have told you of EARTHLY THINGS and ye BELIEVE NOT... HOW shall ye BELIEVE if I tell you HEAVENLY THINGS?

Note JESUS said ..."IF"... which means no "HEAVENLY THINGS" had been expressed...

So the concepts of Heaven from an "Earthly position" would be hard to BELIEVE...  :dontknow:  (I say it encompasses the TRUE unending, unbeginning state of NOW...  without the decaying element of TIME, as present, ...yet maintaining the animation of LIFE and progression... which is neither "forward or backward", but ...IS... a HEAVENLY THING... which men such as Nicodemus or ourselves are unable to grasp.)

TIME's TEMPORAL DEATHLY motion of NOW, takes all things within it, through the processes of G & E... part of which is the result of DEATH within "NOW",  ...where LIFE is ORDAINED to ETERNALLY BE...

CHRIST is also noted as becoming a little LOWER than the angels for the sufferING (motion/progression) ending in DEATH...  and that ETERNAL COMPLETION was accomplished within CHRIST's involvement in TIME... Heb 2:9-10

All the while of His "sufferING" in TIME, He noted that He was ALREADY ascended:

JOHN 3:13

In the following examination of -- John 3:13 -- CHRIST notes during His experience IN and WITH TIME:

John 3:13 -- No MAN hath ASCENDED up INTO Heaven, but He that CAME DOWN from Heaven, even the Son of MAN which ...IS... in Heaven...

He is therein, ...naming Himself:

(1) already "hath ascended" -- future...

(2) "came" down -- past...

(3) "IS" in Heaven -- present...


Which displays that an ETERNAL entity IS NOT confined by the PROGRESSION of TIME as are we... and EXISTS in all portions of it (as finites observe time - past/present/future) SIMULTANEOUSLY...

Quote from: trettep on July 25, 2009, 09:07:01 PMThis is why I said that Time is As God is.

.

ANOTHER ...UNSCRIPTURAL statement trettep... please brother trettep, ...note the book, chapter & verse, where it is SAID that:  "Time is As God is"

Quote from: trettep on July 25, 2009, 09:07:01 PMFor God is the sustaining force for everything - thus while everything is sustaining it would mean that Time marches continues.  This is why Longsuffering and Patience etc... require Time.

And YET ANOTHER... Where is it said in the Scripture that "LONGSUFFERING and PATIENCE (which are the same thing) require TIME", trettep? 

We observe these things IN TIME as members OF TIME, but the concepts of ETERNITY are not based upon TIME, and are NOT defined in terms of TIME.

GOD is not subject to TIME... He created it... and shall END it... for its purpose will have been COMPLETED... That does not mean that its MEMORY is dispensed, ...just that its MOTION which decays all within it, shall CEASE.

The WORD says

Luke 21:33 -- that Heaven and Earth shall PASS AWAY, yet My WORDS shall NOT PASS AWAY...

Rev 21:4 -- notes the NEGATIVE things of TIME (that which occured within the DAYS of MAN) shall end and PASS AWAY... With the Heaven and Earth which CHRIST noted...

ALL these things which have occurred in DEFILED realm of "TIME" (which has beginning and end)... are not to enter the UNDEFILED realm of ETERNITY...

In the end, as with many observations... both positions can be BELIEVED... neither are pivotal elements of the GOSPEL... so as you are so moved, back to the topic...

Quote from: trettep on July 25, 2009, 10:06:12 PM

Quote from: Seth on July 25, 2009, 09:27:09 PM

Quote from: trettep on July 25, 2009, 06:14:37 PM

Quote from: Zeek on July 25, 2009, 04:55:12 PM
1Co 1:2  Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and  ours:

Again, this one doesn't appear "personal" either.  Personal implies to me to be individually attached.   Maybe we view "personal" in "personal savior" differently?

Paul

I think there are several ways to view "personal" as you say there. I think it is a good point to consider what one means by "personal."

Personal can be seen as (from the Oxford American Dictionary):

1) affecting or belonging to a particular person (one may have a personal fortune worth a few million)
2) of or concerning one's private life (my personal, private life was affected by the salvation from my slavery to sin)
3) referring to a person's body (personal hygene)
4) existing as a self-aware entity, not as an abstraction or an impersonal force (Jews, Christians and Muslims believe in a personal God)

Well this lends support to why I think we shouldn't use the phrase.  Because it CAN be defined as #1 which is the primary definition.  In the case of #1 someone would be believing Jesus to be their own savior and that those that don't have Him are out of the loop for salvation.  That was the premise for my OP.

Paul

I agree, if people think that Jesus is their OWN savior, and not the savior of the world, then it is the wrong use of the word, and I agree the phrase should not be used among those who wish to preach a true gospel apart from phrases that would just add confusion.

However, #2 is the meaning that I would use - if I did use that phrase. Christ being a personal savior in that case would mean that he saves our personal lives from the evil states that they are in, that we may walk in newness of life. That is why I brought up this scripture:

Phil 2-12
Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God in you to will and to work of his good pleasure.

The reference to "our own salvation" is what that scripture is referring to the death of the old and walking in newness of life. Our own salvation can be WORKED outwardly because God is in us both willing and working out through us the evidence that we are being saved from sin.