What does eating from the wrong tree result in?
A friend of mine wrote:
"The need to be right or wrong, does not feed our inner self (inner man). It nourishes our insecure "self" with more insecurity. Just as a wounded animal can become more dangerous so can a wounded soul.
Herein we also have, the evil intentions of the heart (IE desire, from something to prove).
Simultaneously we have self righteousness and everything that goes with it.
We want to grow, but then we see growth as the meaning of life.
This looks at growth through the dichotomy of good and evil, right/wrong. When this happens then we look down on those who have not learned a "lesson" we have already learned and look up to those who have show growth ahead of us.
Unconditional love is perfection.
We do our best "growth" when we are living love. This is where we have less unrealistic expectations from our friends and family.
The tendency to accept people where they are at. Growth is great, but it is easier going when it is for the reasons of love. As long as there is something to prove, it is not unconditional love.
Unconditional love does not rule out our personal frontiers. But those frontiers will exist for different reasons. "
As long as there is something to prove, it is not unconditional love."
We're all in this together. We are all reconciled, loved, and through his grace have experienced love. With this experience, we can grow together.
any thots.
Great thoughts Laren
I guess the hardest lesson we have to learn is love in spite of (unconditional).
Jesus' whole ministry turned the Levitical view on it's head with the eye for an eye outlook. In fact the more I study the OT and esp. the Levitical laws, the more I see flesh and not God.
And to think that much of the skewed thinking in the church today is derived in part from these laws.
Love covers a multitude of sins, yet when we point a finger (do it and look at your hand) One accuses, 3 point back and the thumb, the most important anatomy function of the hand, points up. Should give us a clue as to who should be the judge and who's judgement is all important.
Blessings
for me the greatest blessing has been learning to put on the servent attitude.
this ""for me"" anyway is one of the greatest things we can do, and it can be done at home at work in the grocery store, etc.....
i can study and learn and recieve the mysteries and all that but when the servent attitude is applied in life all is well with me. :boydance: :cheerleader:
God bless
chuckt
Quote from: chuckt on December 01, 2007, 05:06:21 PM
for me the greatest blessing has been learning to put on the servent attitude.
this ""for me"" anyway is one of the greatest things we can do, and it can be done at home at work in the grocery store, etc.....
i can study and learn and recieve the mysteries and all that but when the servent attitude is applied in life all is well with me. :boydance: :cheerleader:
God bless
chuckt
I like that chuckt.
for me, growing into a deeper awareness of God's love for ME, "all of me", has been a blessing; as now I feel I am seeing others more through the eyes of love, rather than condemnation. I have for so long had the attitude of "God loves me, that is the good in me", and "hates the bad in me", and spent so long condemning myself, judging myself on "good/bad, right/wrong", rather than acceptance. I have been conditioned for so long, and all of us have; that acceptance is based on how we perform, how we act, how good we are. In my opinion we have believed the LIE, "we're not good enough". And it is that, a lie.
I have lived so long as seeing "bad me", and the "good that God wants", trying so hard to get from A to B, and praying for the Holy Spirit to get me there. As if the goal wasnt' Jesus, but Jesus was the means to get to acceptance (ie: acceptable behavior).
I really do believe "acceptance of self, and others" is key. I believe when we quit trying to change behavior in ourselves, and in others; love flows.
Focus on behavior, to me leads to "sin focus". Trying to learn to love, has failed over and over for me. Love "IS". It flows from inside out.
2Co 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
be blessed.
Laren
:cloud9: Good posts all......and the Spirit AND the bride say, Come....... :HeartThrob:
QuoteWhat does eating from the wrong tree result in?
If we eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, or the law, we are walking in the flesh. The law tells us what we must do to be right with God by our actions. This will always fail. Eat of the tree of life, or grace, by depending totally upon Jesus to make us 100% perfect in God's sight apart from what we do. This is walking in the Spirit.
The Gospel of Grace and Peace!!
:cloud9: Amen to that, Giz....... :thumbsup:
QuoteIn fact the more I study the OT and esp. the Levitical laws, the more I see flesh and not God.
you posted some links somewhere referincing sites where it spoke about the Levitical laws being of man. I can't find them, there were 3. Could you help? Thanks, again
Quote from: Gizmo on December 02, 2007, 10:21:18 PM
QuoteWhat does eating from the wrong tree result in?
Eat of the tree of life, or grace, by depending totally upon Jesus to make us 100% perfect in God's sight apart from what we do. This is walking in the Spirit.
The Gospel of Grace and Peace!!
the question I have, is isn't this still a focus on "making us a 100%perfect" still looking at our imperfections? Still seeems to me to be a focus on getting from point A (bad person) to point B (good person) but now by relying on the source (Holy Spirit).
For me, this still leads to sin, confess, pray for more help, sin, confesss, pray for more help.......etc.
Is this the grace walk??
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
But they forget.
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, and have love. Then I am everything
There is nothing wrong with gift of prophesy, fathoming all mysteries and all knowledges, and even having faith to move mountains when you have love. It is when you don't have love then we are nothing. It is very interesting how people misunderstand what they are reading in Scripture and so in their misunderstanding make it say it says something it does not.
QuoteHerein we also have, the evil intentions of the heart (IE desire, from something to prove).
Where in Scripture does it say the evil intentions of the heart is comes rom something to prove? Did Jesus speak from evil intentions when he asked his accusers to provide proof?
John 8:46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me?
Nowhere in Scripture has there ever been rebuke to anyone for asking another to prove him wrong.
Job 24:24-25For a little while they are exalted, and then they are gone; they are brought low and gathered up like all others; they are cut off like heads of grain. If this is not so, who can prove me false and reduce my words to nothing?"
Luke 7:35Wisdom is proved right by all her children.
Proverbs 12:1Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
It looks to me, that the only ones who hate to prove something, are those who cannot prove anything. As well as we all know that any accusation must be made in by three credible witnesses. So anyone who makes an accusation without proof, is the one who operates out of evil intent.
Sorry, Jesus demanded proof from the Pharisee's to prove him wrong. So as I said, who said there was a need to be right, when demanding proof. Who said it is evil intent to be proven right or wrong? That is just one of many reason but not all of them. People really need to study the Word and show themselves approved and stop relying on their opinions.
Willie,
I agree with your observations on not feeling that we need to win a debate or convince others to see it our way. This is often how threads become too personal. At the same time, it is not unusual for posters to become passionate about the truth that they see and in exposing what they see as dangerous doctrines that can hurt those who hear without discernment.
I think that a good rule of thumb is to not to try to draw others into one on one debates. Many come to TM to share what they have learned and to consider what others have learned to find the truth. But, I would say that most do not like to contend with another or to be drawn into a debate with another believer.
I guess that I am saying that if we love the truth, we must allow each other to vehemently challenge what we do not agree with, but we should not try to take on the other person. There is a way to be unwavering in our battle for the truth and against the lies of the enemy without making the one who believes differently feel that you are attacking them.
One valuable tool to keep this balance is to acknowledge that you could be wrong because you truly believe that you could be wrong. I don't mean to say it with lip service while your tone lets everyone know that you really do not think it is possible that you are wrong. I guess only God can work humility into a man and I have definately eaten enough humble pie that I never will doubt how fallible I am in understanding God or His Word.
John
PS Please let no one think I am talking about them. I will save you the trouble and just say that I am talking about all of us. :icon_flower:
Quote from: Sarah on December 02, 2007, 11:59:29 PM
QuoteIn fact the more I study the OT and esp. the Levitical laws, the more I see flesh and not God.
you posted some links somewhere referincing sites where it spoke about the Levitical laws being of man. I can't find them, there were 3. Could you help? Thanks, again
On my Blog
http://www.mychurch.org/blog/102939/Jesus-teachings-on-Hell-part-1-of-15
http://www.mychurch.org/blog/102939/Jesus-teachings-on-Hell-part-2-of-15
http://www.mychurch.org/blog/102939/Jesus-teachings-on-Hell-part-3-of-15
More on the hell teachings by Jesus and references back to the Levitical laws. I will still do a study on the laws but probably in the new year, God willing.
Blessings
I too have eaten a whole lot of humble pie in my time and have let go of more things than I can count only to grasp stuff I thought I wouldnt lol
It was getting to a point that I thought man better not fight that to hard or I will end up believing it haha
there are some things that I can honestly say if its truth I dont want to know, just wait till after I die Lord if its truth cause that would be more than I can handle.
One was the whole Jesus was a common man a sinner like all men till he got the baptism, adoptionism I believe its called. That one I really have a distaste for and prayed Lord if there is even a remote chance thats truth please dont tell me! lol
I feel the same way about absolute determinism, dont even tell me Lord, just leave me blind as a bat please till after death, maybe I could handle that then if its got truth in it. lol
so I try hard to not take harsh stances, you all know me, queen of the middle ground, fence sitter as Jack would say, but I find rest there in most things. But time things right and Im off on my soap box too.
I like what a friend said to me this morning that he figures what ever God is telling him is for him and keeps his eyes focused on that.
I think I just need some duct tape
kept
mmm... enlightening.
A classic example of:
Proverbs 11:27
He who seeks good finds goodwill, but evil comes to him who searches for it.
Psalm 7:15
He has dug a pit and hollowed it out, and has fallen into the hole which he made. His mischief will return upon his own head, and his violence will descend upon his own pate.
Anywho.
Quotethe question I have, is isn't this still a focus on "making us a 100%perfect" still looking at our imperfections? Still seeems to me to be a focus on getting from point A (bad person) to point B (good person) but now by relying on the source (Holy Spirit).
For me, this still leads to sin, confess, pray for more help, sin, confesss, pray for more help.......etc.
Is this the grace walk??
Good point. Walking in the Spirit to me means that as far as God is concerned, I am ALREADY 100% perfect. I never want to get into the churchianity sin/confess spiral of doom. However, when I focus on Jesus, who took away the law, there is nothing to condemn me. All I have is complete acceptance. I keep coming back to Jesus not to be perfect, but to be loved. I need to remind myself that God holds nothing against me, that the law was nailed to the tree. So I am trying to see myself as God sees me...perfect AS IS. Paul says we are COMPLETE in HIM. Religion, which means to re-bind, will always leave doubt in our head that we are all perfect...that doubt sure fills pews and sells books though!
The flesh will always want to be justified by what we do, even believe. Thank God we are free from all that stuff. It sickens me that the church continues to put people under bondage...."do not taste, do not touch".
Best wishes,
Giz
Quote from: Gizmo on December 05, 2007, 01:06:38 AM
Quotethe question I have, is isn't this still a focus on "making us a 100%perfect" still looking at our imperfections? Still seeems to me to be a focus on getting from point A (bad person) to point B (good person) but now by relying on the source (Holy Spirit).
For me, this still leads to sin, confess, pray for more help, sin, confesss, pray for more help.......etc.
Is this the grace walk??
Good point. Walking in the Spirit to me means that as far as God is concerned, I am ALREADY 100% perfect. I never want to get into the churchianity sin/confess spiral of doom. However, when I focus on Jesus, who took away the law, there is nothing to condemn me. All I have is complete acceptance. I keep coming back to Jesus not to be perfect, but to be loved. I need to remind myself that God holds nothing against me, that the law was nailed to the tree. So I am trying to see myself as God sees me...perfect AS IS. Paul says we are COMPLETE in HIM. Religion, which means to re-bind, will always leave doubt in our head that we are all perfect...that doubt sure fills pews and sells books though!
The flesh will always want to be justified by what we do, even believe. Thank God we are free from all that stuff. It sickens me that the church continues to put people under bondage...."do not taste, do not touch".
Best wishes,
Giz
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :bgdance: :bgdance: :Egyptdance2:
Where does it say in Scripture you are 100% perfect already? According to what God sees, He sees you through His Son, who is perfect already. With that I can say amen. However are we perfect? No.
Doesn't Paul state also:
Philippians 3:12-14
I have not already obtained it nor have I already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
1 Corinthians 13:9-12
For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
Where does this doctrine that we have already attained perfection come from? Even Paul did not say he was perfect but he was laying a hold of it. If we are already perfect, then why are we in need of a teacher?
Romans 8:22
We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
The Lord has shown me a great error in which we have been walking, still persuing the flesh and calling it the spirit. I have more to say on this, but it isn't the right time. We are not perfect, we still have not the redemption of our bodies, we still are not saved, but in this hope we are saved, knowing a time will come where we will be made perfect, and in the resurrection of the dead we are saved. We wait for it patiently.
In the meantime:
1 Timothy 4:13-14
Devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching and to teaching.Not neglecting your gift, which was given you through a prophetic message when the body of elders laid their hands on you.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
Sll Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
Ephesians 5:11-14
It was He who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speak the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.
So we all agree, those who know we are not perfect but only concentrate on those imperfections are not worthy of service in the Kingdom of God. Yet, we are in disagreement because we are not perfect and those who know we are not perfect look forward, teaching, correcting, building each other up, so that we may reach perfection, unity in the faith, unity in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining the whole measure of the fullness of Christ are running the race set before them and obtaining the prize and if we stop running believing they have already attained it, we have disqualified ourselves from the race, or have completely stopped short of what is the truth and are prey to those who wish to toss us back and forth in every wind of doctrine because we are not prepared and end up thinking that what we are doing is following the spirit but we have been in the flesh all a long.
As the Lord has shown me, if anyone of us thinks they have already arrived to that perfection, that unity in faith, that unity in the knowledge of the Son of God and is already mature, already attaining the whole measure of the fullness of Christ, we then have been disqualified from the race, side-tracked to another Gospel which is not the Gospel at all.
The need to be right, is not the focus of being right. We need to strive forward into the unity of all things attaining the full measure of Christ is, and as such we are given the gifts of God and Scripture to defend to know what is right, and defend what is right when there is question asked of us. We aren't there yet, but only those who look back are the ones who live in fear. So if we can recognize we are not perfect, and that imperfection causes us fear, we are not looking towards Christ and need to start running His direction.
Luke 9:62
Jesus replied, "No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God."
It is not my purpose to offend, my intentions are pure. I am not perfect by no means, but in my weakness I am made strong, and so are you. Please do not get mixed up about resting in Him, that is not what I am talking about, resting in Him and running the race are the same thing; We are all part of the Body of Christ, each of us have our part.
We are all perfect, in that God counts no sin against us and we are completely accepted by God, because we are IN CHRIST. We may not be perfect in other areas, which is not what I was saying. Anyway, there is not one thing that I can do or not do to affect God's acceptance...nothing can separate me from the love of God.
As far as anything else goes, it's all open for debate. The core of the gospel, the radical acceptance by God, is my only concern right now. I'm really trying to renew my mind with the gospel....
QuoteWe are all perfect, in that God counts no sin against us and we are completely accepted by God, because we are IN CHRIST. We may not be perfect in other areas, which is not what I was saying. Anyway, there is not one thing that I can do or not do to affect God's acceptance...nothing can separate me from the love of God.
Which if one believes in reconciliation and salvation of all things, it should not be the objection that first comes up when someone else believes in reconciliation and salvation of all things brings up the point. Why is it that when I say we are not perfect, the first thing that goes into their head is something concerning acceptance to God, or reconciliation, or salvation, etc., or that I am saying or focusing on our imperfections? Is it still such an insecurity in our lives?
QuoteThe core of the gospel, the radical acceptance by God, is my only concern right now.
It shouldn't be a concern at all. We are already accepted, and reconciled in Jesus Christ, there should be no concern especially concerning that, unless of course we are still not convinced of that reality, then I would reinterate, the concern is solved in Jesus Christ who does not fail, now we must run the race set before us.
Quote from: Craig on December 05, 2007, 02:15:57 AM
Quote
Is it still such an insecurity in our lives?
....unless of course we are still not convinced of that reality, then I would reinterate, the concern is solved in Jesus Christ who does not fail, now we must run the race set before us.
Reading it in the bible is one thing, but "knowing" his acceptance , living it and believing it for me has been one of the biggest struggles in my life.
IMO, the race set before us comes from a "deep" knowledge at the heart level that we are accepted. I don't think it is easy as just saying, "it is true, so now run the race".
Which I understand from your initial post is what you were saying. My apologies if for any reason, I misunderstood.
Part of running the race, is being cheered on and encouraged by a cloud of witnesses.
Part of running the race, is learning to jump those hurdles that are set before us.
Part of running the race, is to grow healthy and stronger.
Part of running the race, is to know how the race is won.
Part of running the race, is to recieve the prize at the end.
Part of running the race, is to know that everyone who finishes recieves the same prize, there is no 1st, 2nd or 3rd. Where do you think those cloud of witnesses cheering us on come from? :)
QuoteIMO, the race set before us comes from a "deep" knowledge at the heart level that we are accepted.
I agree.
I am accepted by my Father in heaven, so what do I do with the inheritance he is giving me? Spend it on sex, drugs and violence? Or do I invest it and give to the poor, widow and orphan? I am accepted by my Father, though what is the right way to respect the inheritence Father who accepts us just as we are gave us? Does being right in the circumstance matter? Does it really come out of a need to be right, or is it because it is the right and we are given that responsibility?
So do these verses make one feel accepted.
Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
"so if we dont' are we accepted"?
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
"so if we fail have we not proved what is acceptable"
Col 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
"so can I not walk "worthy". If i'm not worthy, wouldn't you feel not accepted?
1Th 2:12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.
2Th 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
"so I can not be counted worthy"??
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
How can you fall away if you are accpeted??
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
"doesnt' sound accepting to me"
1Co 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
"if i'm not pleased, then doesnt' that sound like he is accepting me"?
1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
"where is the acceptance in this"?
Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblamable and unreprovable in his sight:
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
"sounds like i have to do something, continue in faith, to be accepted"
2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
???
Genesis 4:6-7
Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."
Answer: the concern is solved in Jesus Christ who does not fail.
1 John 2:1My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One (the one who does right).
A friend of mine once told me very early in my walk, I cannot remember the question but it is relevant to this.
He took a napkin and said, pointing to a salt cellar, this is you, and the napkin this is Jesus.
He said, we think, when God looks at us, He sees the salt cellar, then he placed the napkin over the salt cellar and continued, "When in fact, He looks at us and all He sees is His Son Jesus"
He was Pentecostal, but not a radical. The story has merit. We know that "Love covers a multitude of sins" and while we strive to do whatever we think makes a difference to salvation, all sin is covered by Jesus.
Many may just leave it there and be happy that sin is taken care of. However we are told we are to press into. Into what?
Well the napkin of course.
Jesus nor God change by what we do. If any change takes place, it is in us.
Obtaining the prize is the goal and like I have said many times, the asking, seeking, and knocking is our responsibility. Having more of Christ manifest is us and taking the analogy, the salt cellar and napkin become one.
From the onset, the napkin was always there, becoming like the napkin is the goal.
Draw near to Me and I shall draw near to thee, co-responsibility. The more earnest we we do the ask, knock and seek things the more the napkin (Christ) becomes manifest in us.
When we are lazy, we remain a salt pot.
When we a diligent, putting away the things of the flesh, pressing in towards the goal, the more we do it, the more we become the napkin. Ultimately, in this life or the next, we become the napkin or rather, the salt cellar no longer exists, an we are totally enveloped in Christ and God becomes All in all.
This leads me to talk of sin.
Jesus says, "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive them that trespass against us"
Knowing now our sin is taken care of, why then ask for forgiveness? Well it is simple, with sin, and rightly so, comes the burden of guilt. We are either convicted by the Holy Spirit of our error, and the burden remains. Asking for forgiveness given already therefore is us in essence removing from us the burden of guilt. While we are in guilt, we place our self in bondage, and the devil, the accuser, can come in and say "I told you so" or "you are not good enough because". When the burden of guilt is removed, that guilt is removed, not the sin as the sin is already dealt with by the Cross.
When trespasses exist by one to another, we suffer the same burden, either hurt, or pride.
We are told that if a brother has a grudge against us or has offended, we are to make the first move in forgiveness.
Mat 5:23 Therefore if you offer your gift on the altar, and there remember that your brother has anything against you,
Mat 5:24 leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
Mat 5:25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are in the way with him; that the opponent not deliver you to the judge, and the judge deliver you to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.
Mat 5:26 Truly I say to you, You shall by no means come out from there until you have paid the last kodrantes.
Mat 18:15 But if your brother shall trespass against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear you, take one or two more with you, so that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he neglects to hear the church, let him be to you as a heathen and a tax-collector.
Mat 18:18 Truly I say to you, Whatever you shall bind on earth shall occur, having been bound in Heaven; and whatever you shall loose on earth shall occur, having been loosed in Heaven.
The persistence is self evident and clearly shows how we are to deal with others.
Once we have dealt with the matter and reconciled, we close the door to satan so that he can neither place guilt or pride on either party.
The Lord's prayer carries on:
Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil....
God leads no one into temptation as He tempts no man. Staying with the theme, the way I see it, once the forgiving takes place, we ask for His help so that we do not repeat out trespass, lead us not into temptation can be translated to keep us out of this trap and then deliver us from evil makes sense.
While we hold offence/trespass or it is held against us this happens:
Mat 18:18 Truly I say to you, Whatever you shall bind on earth shall occur, having been bound in Heaven; and whatever you shall loose on earth shall occur, having been loosed in Heaven.
So it stands to reason, while these interplay, trespasses exist between people, places us in the bondage of the evil one, we loose it by forgiveness/repentance or we bind it by the lack thereof. Heaven here can rightly be seen as our heart/minds and the earth the deeds of the flesh (sin)
The traditionals will teach binding and loosing of demons even other people with the add-on in the name of Jesus wada wada wada. No that is not what it is about.
When a brother refuses to forgive after being approached by witnesses and and the church, then it says:
But if he neglects to hear the church, let him be to you as a heathen and a tax-collector.
You are loosed of the burden of guilt/pride and the non-reciprocating brother heap upon themselves "judgement" and leave the door open for further condemnation.
God deals with such a person in time. A hardened heart reaps its consequences eventually, even though the sin is taken care of already.
Mat 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for an assarion? And one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
Mat 10:30 But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.
Mat 10:31 Therefore do not fear, you are of more value than many sparrows.
The hardened heart, only God can change.
This again shows the consequences of sin we have to deal with and like Jesus', we are to cover the trespass and sin with Love.
These are the small things of being right, it is not about self piety, self righteousness and it goes in line with:
1Co 13:4 Love waits patiently; it acts kindly. Love does not envy [or, is not jealous]; love does not boast; it does not become haughty.
1Co 13:5 It does not behave disgracefully; it does not seek its own [things]; it is not provoked [or, irritated]; it does not keep a record of evil.
1Co 13:6 It does not rejoice over unrighteousness, but it rejoices with the truth.
1Co 13:7 It puts up with all [things], believes all, hopes [or, confidently expects] all, endures all.
1Co 13:8a Love never fails
Blessings
Craig,
I appreciate your post. The reason I bring it up in my life is because I need constant reminding. My own inner condemner and the crap I learned in church needs to be continuously washed in the most rudimenary understanding...radical acceptance. I'm hoping to live in that confidence to where I don't need constant washing, and that I guess is part of the 'perfecting' process. I hope God has bigger things for me once I fully incorporate His love in my life.
Giz
Seeker,
I like your quote of 1Cor. It reminds me of what I call the Divine Syllogism that goes something like this: God is love. Love is patient, kind, keeps no record of wrong. Therefore, God is patient, kind and keeps no record of wrong. The fundies haven't figured out that God keeps no record of wrong for ANYONE!
Giz
Quote from: Gizmo on December 06, 2007, 02:05:36 AM
Craig,
I appreciate your post. The reason I bring it up in my life is because I need constant reminding. My own inner condemner and the crap I learned in church needs to be continuously washed in the most rudimenary understanding...radical acceptance. I'm hoping to live in that confidence to where I don't need constant washing, and that I guess is part of the 'perfecting' process. I hope God has bigger things for me once I fully incorporate His love in my life.
Giz
Amen :) No problem man! I always like praising the Lord to encourage a brother! Jesus is our savior! :D