The Scriptures interpretation

[donken]

HI.   I think that all here would know that the Scripture itself tells us that we are to follow the Spirit and that it is the Spirit that will lead us into all truth, not the scripture.  Jesus Himself said to follow Him, not the scripture.     In this day or time in the world now, if one fills their self with the water of the word without freezing their understanding and making it immovable, the Spirit {Christ} will change the water into the NEW WINE, the hidden manna.

It will become understood according to how the spirit of life ministers THE LIFE of Christ to us.  We can already see that the words on paper do not give unity of understanding or Spirit.

Joh_14:17  Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Joh_15:26  But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Joh_16:13  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

1Jn_4:6  We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Rev_2:17  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

2Co 3:3  Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

2Co 3:6  Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

donken

[donken]

Hello.  I think that if most of you think about it, you probably have all shared and talked about scripture with many people and those who are already of an opinion that is formed of the bible or scriptures they use, and they have a different understanding already of the scriptures being shared, that there is hardly ever, if any at all, change of opinion by anyone.  The letter of scripture then becomes useless almost.  The SPIRIT is what believes the truth and it is in the believer, but the natural literal understanding of the scriptures will remain firm.  That is the strong man that Christ has to bind before "those" goods can be changed\destroyed.

Talking scripture is almost useless with people who already are scripture based and are sincere and faithful to what they\we believe.  What one believes is who they are at the moment.  Hebrew, Greek, English, whatever.  There are very many different meanings of the same word, especially in Hebrew, and one picks the one they like best that fits what they already believe the best.   The hearer is always the interpreter, no matter what the speaker or writer means themselves.

Bless, ken

[Cardinal]

The SPIRIT is what believes the truth and it is in the believer, but the natural literal understanding of the scriptures will remain firm.  That is the strong man that Christ has to bind before "those" goods can be changed\destroyed.

:cloud9: IMO, I think there's a problem with your interpretation of who and what the strong man is. The strong man of the house is not Satan.

He has a baptism to be baptized with, and how HE IS BOUND until it be accomplished. Christ, the strong man of the house of God, whose house we are, is bound in all of us
until the kingdom of God, which is righteousness, peace and joy IN the Holy Ghost, comes to us.

So getting baptized INTO the Holy Ghost, frees Him to begin to do the WORKS of (God) the Holy Ghost. He is the light of ALL men that come into the world. But in the OT, Satan was already given the "world" = us, the dust he has to crawl on his belly to consume. Satan wanted us to fall, so God made him part of the solution, as what the enemy meant for evil, God (already) meant for good.

Satan continues to eat our dust, making it so uncomfortable in the dust realm for us, that he pushes us right into the solution, which is Christ in us, the hope of glory. As we cooperate with the mind of Christ in line with the Father's plan, Satan literally "pushes" us up to be seated in heavenly places with Christ Jesus. Does not any good "footstool" elevate the feet?

Now Christ's "goods" are being spoiled by the devils/devilish carnal mind imaginations, that are binding Him in us (with the AUTHORIZATION of the Father) because He must be reserved in heaven (the realm of the Spirit/understanding) until the time of the restitution or restoring of all things, that the enemy has taken. These things, which be of and in Christ, are IN US, but have been bound, and thereby spoiled, or made a "spoil", as in a spoil of "war."

And the flesh, which Satan has a foothold in, WARS against the Spirit continually. Satan has the AUTHORITY to take us captive by HIS WILL, which was given to Him by the Father. Whatsoever is bound in heaven, is bound in earth.

Ps 19:5 - "Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a STRONG MAN to run a race."

Pr 24:5 -  "A WISE MAN IS STRONG; yea, a man of knowledge increaseth strength."

And what's interesting is if you look up the word for RAM, as in.......

Ge 22:13 - "And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a RAM caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son."

.........you find that it runs into a meaning of a word that means STRONG MAN. The churches teach what a big devil he is, and they have everyone focusing on that, worrying about everything Satan could do to foil the plans of God, instead of what a big strong man of Christ we have INSIDE US.

Well, the RAM was BOUND, and offered up for a burnt offering. Christ IS the firstfruits offering, and God will supply the offering. So just like the 3 Hebrew children, ie. spirit, soul, and body, when we receive the baptism in the HG that begins to consume the cords that have bound Him in us by the "wicked king", pretty soon we begin to see a FOURTH MAN, the STRONG MAN, in the fire of the living God, that was heated 7 times hotter, purified like the gold of the mercy seat. That fire was the FIFTH element, it was God the Father, who never leaves us or forsakes us, FIVE is the number of His unmerited grace.

Now let's see what happens if you put all these things together.....

Acts 3: 1 "Now Peter and John went up together into the temple at the hour of prayer, being the ninth hour. 2 And a certain man lame from his mother's womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms of them that entered into the temple;

When the "little" word (petras) that we are, joins itself to love (John = beloved/love), we can go UP INTO THE TEMPLE, at the hour of prayer, the 9th hour........9 fruits/9 gifts = the candlestick IN US. The 9th hour was 3pm, the time of the DEATH ON THE CROSS/RAM ON THE ALTAR. And we can go to those then that were lame from their mother's womb = unable to walk in the spirit because they are under the law/their mother is Hagar. We enter in by the STRAIGHT GATE, for OUR ASHES, He gives us beauty, the beauty of the Christ/Ram. Make yourselves a LIVING SACRIFICE.

Acts 3:3 "Who seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple asked an alms. 4 And Peter, fastening his eyes upon him with John, said, Look on us. 5 And he gave heed unto them, expecting to receive something of them. 6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.

Silver (outer court) and gold (inner court) have I none = I have not held onto the fruit of yesterdays (days 1-6), but have entered into that which is beyond the veil (day 7); Christ in us and our Father are ONE IN US, He is no longer bound, but can finish His work and return to the Father, IN US.

Acts 3:7 And he took him by the right (raised up by the Spirit) hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength. 8 And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God. 9 And all the people saw him walking and praising God: 10 And they knew that it was he which sat for alms at the Beautiful gate of the temple: and they were filled with wonder and amazement at that which had happened unto him. 11 And as the lame man which was healed held Peter and John, all the people ran together unto them in the porch that is called Solomon's, greatly wondering.

Solomon's porch had 5 flows of water = flow of the Spirit thru the 5 fold. Those of you that are waiting for the restoration of the 5 fold ministry, it will not happen as many might think, in the way many might think, but rather the fullness, which is in the first 2 courts as He told me, means that what was, will be increased until it is fulfilled perfectly.

Literally He is descending and so "condensing" the 3 parts of the Tabernacle into one, until a perfect many-membered man is standing there in the garments of the High Priest = clothed in New Jerusalem, the robe and the stones of her being the redeemed soul and the walls/ephod. He has already built a temple (out there, ie. the placement of all peoples on the face of the earth in one of the courts) and NOW He is "building" a MAN to enter that temple and bring the day of Atonement into reality in the here and now, as well as the day of Jubilee which is HIM having HIS possessions all restored back to Him. As usual, man thought it was all about them.  :winkgrin:

But all have had to go through the 2 first, ie. the foundation of the church is built upon the apostles/word and prophets/spirit. Petras/word and love/Spirit, must come into union first. Then the 5 fold as FULLNESS contained in the 2 that are now ONE, the robe of Melchisedek. Father is enthroned in the midst of them. Whenever 2 or more of you are GATHERED in my NAME/NATURE, there I AM in the midst of you. Those that will not gather with Him, scattereth abroad = divide the body. Notice ALL the people ran to THEM. Cast your net on the RIGHT SIDE.

Acts 3:12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk? 13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus (=THE SON HAS RETURNED TO THE FATHER IN US) whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. 14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; 15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

Every time we deny Christ's wisdom, we desire a murderer (Satan was a murderer from the beginning) to be granted unto us. We "kill" the Prince of life, whom God is trying to raise Him from the dead = out of the bondage of corruption.

The corruption is not just this fleshly body He's speaking of, but rather the fleshly wisdom of the carnal mind, which is empowered by Satan that seeks to keep it's place in the temple declaring that he is God.

Satan is the root of the tree that the axe must be laid at. Just as a tree has a main "tap root" that goes down farther into the earth, so is Satan the root that keeps the flesh alive thru sin, thus making it necessitate our being under the law/letter again to kill the flesh.

Acts 3:16 And HIS NAME/NATURE THROUGH FAITH IN HIS NAME/NATURE, hath made this MAN STRONG, whom ye see and know: yea, THE FAITH WHICH IS BY HIM hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

It is not of works (law alone) lest any man should boast. Faith (Spirit/NT covenant fulfilled in us) without works (law/OT covenant fulfilled in us) is dead, and works without faith is dead.

The Word cannot return (to the Father) void = devoid of the Spirit. Without faith (Spirit/NT covenant fulfilled in us) it is impossible to please Him.

For He hath smitten, and He will bind up, come let us return (as the Spirit breathed Word that we were before the foundation of the world/we became the letter Word/waters below the firmament) unto the Lord. HE IS, the Alpha AND the Omega. You can't return unto a place you've never been before..... :bigGrin: My  :2c: as always.....Blessings to all......

[donken]

Hello Cardinal.  I am saying the spirit of man is the "sinner", and Satan as well.  But the spirit or things that happen in the world are also the same spirit, both good and evil things happen from the one source.   Man is the tree or source of the fruit of both good and of evil deeds such as kindness and compassion and love, and also the same person can kill in anger or jealousy, or greed {money and power especially}, etc.   Jesus himself is reported as saying that there is nothing from outside of man that can defile the man.  Jesus said that the things that defile the man {sin} come forth from out of the heart and out of the mouth from the heart.  They are already there.   The "man" of sin is satan, and if you think about it I think you "may" see that many of the doctrines you yourself may things are not of God in others are "of man's methods and ways".

For instance, hell and punishment in hell from fire, natural ideas of fire.   Hitler, Ceasar, Ghengis Khan, and many other leaders professed such things and many men did them to other men.  It is quite natural for natural natured, and sincere Christian believers and other religions to think it quite normal for God to also use such methods and to fight against evil "things" like man does, physically in their wars etc.   Those doctrines are of the way of man and the world,

Even viruses are only trying to save their own life when they enter into my body and begin to cause my nose to run.  They are clearing out my normal cells in my nose and beginning to form an environment where they can be fruitful, multiply, and subdue my earthen body.   Out own ways upon us.  We kill an destroy many things in our wars far beyond each other by bombs and so on, and we kill animals and other things to eat etc, just like the virus' methods.  They are all of the world and are not indicative of the ways of God.  But it is up to each to decide and we will.

I have over 120 pages of scripture showing that man is the similitude of the "devil" that lies by saying that we as Christians who are carnal are going to go to heaven already, as if we are already saved while we are still in bondage to the ways of sin.  Yet we say also that God is in us and we often do terrible un-Christlike things in the name of Jesus.  Like killing abortion doctors and so on, trying to use man's methods to "justify" Christ Jesus' ways, etc.

When Jesus spoke to Peter and called what was coming out of Peter's mouth, although it would seem quite natural and good toward Jesus, telling him that he did not or would not suffer those things Jesus said he would suffer, Jesus called what was said from out of Peter's mouth and thus out of his own spirit, SATAN, as in the devil's ideas and thoughts about what Jesus should do, etc.   Tempting Jesus to "not do it" even though Peter was only trying to be helpful and encouraging to Jesus from his own ideas of what was right for Jesus to do.

When I mention how many pages I have showing the spirit of man is the devil's spirit and thus the man of sin {as a double minded world like mind and methods} I am not trying to have people ask for it.  I am just trying to show there is a plethora of information showing this IF we can thing or believe it is possible.  Just like when Adam and Eve sinned in the garden STORY, the law of sin was in them at that time.  The first man IS NATURAL, Paul said.

Thanks, donken

[donken]

2nd  reply re above.   In Isaiah 65 in the new world and new heaven as it is called in verse 17, Satan or the serpent is STILL THERE and is still going to be eating dust.  I quote verse 17 and the one with the serpents meat from Isaiah 65 only, to try to be brief.

Isa 65:17  For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isa 65:25  The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: **and dust shall be the serpent's meat.** They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

Eze_28:9  Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but** thou shalt be a man**, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

I have found Eze. 29:9 to be true and that is what I am hoping others may believe so they can find it.  PEACE and no fear of anything any more is the result, if one did or does have fear at times of things they think exist but really don't, at least not the way commonly thought by man who refuses to admit HE is the sinner and that it is all the "devil's" fault.  That is what Eve is shown to be doing, saying it was not her fault but it was the fault of the "serpent" that was with her.    A  Parable.   WE can not be repentant if we think we do not sin or it is not our own doing.

Since there is going to be babies born and children and "an old man" still in existence in the new heaven and earth in the creation, the devil will always continue to be found as a man in the hand of each person who is near to maturity in Christ and no more an infant or child spiritually.  World without end.

The scripture says that the axe is at the root of the trees, plural.
Mat_3:10  And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Luk_3:9  And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Both trees, even the tree of life which as a spiritually understood parable is Jesus Christ.  The other tree is ADAM the natural man that is of the spirit of the world.  Man does the works of both good and evil, causes life and death in the world, and also is a curse to some and a blessing at times to other.... this being the spirit that Moses and the prophets followed and believed to be god.  The spirit of the OLD MAN, the testimony and inheritance by nature, of the OLD witness but it must first become old for every believer and person.
Thanks,  Donken

[jabcat]

HI.   I think that all here would know that the Scripture itself tells us that we are to follow the Spirit and that it is the Spirit that will lead us into all truth, not the scripture.  Jesus Himself said to follow Him, not the scripture.

Jesus said all Scripture is profitable for teaching. But it only can be when you know what it says. That's what this thread is about.

Jab can you split of this thread because it's off-topic?

sorry tony..for some reason just saw this request...i'll look it over..thanks..

p.s. i'll pm you

[eaglesway]

First I see the strong man as the carnal man. Christ is plundering his house. he is bound by the gospel.

In another sense I can see the strong man as Satan.

"If anyone has not believed our gospel it is because the god of this world has blined their eyes lest they see the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." (2 Cor 4 or 5)

IMO Jesus bound the strong man(both/ either) at the cross "having disarmed the principalities and powers", also "I will sing unto the Lord for He has triumphed gloriously, the horse and rider thrown into the sea".... Again I see the horse and rider as the carnal man, but also as Satan because, "the spirit that now works in the sons of disobedience" is the one who binds them until the blood sets them free"..... Both the adverary and the carnal man work through the law as well, to bind men- as opposed to the "glorious liberty of the children of God". To this extent I can see donken's point about the letter of the word binding men's freedom from the Spirit- it's just that the scriptures are not the culprit, and the Spirit leads us and guides us into all truth by illuminating the Logos and bringing us into the mind of Christ- who is the spirit(2 Corinthians 3:16-18).

I see this further amplified in Peter's declaration, "You are the Messsiah, the Son of God". This revelation opens the door for the new creation, "If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved/healed/delivered"

This revelation is plundering the house of the dead, through the ecclesia - "the gates of sheol will not prevail against it"....."the last adversary is death".

death, the carnal man, satan, the adversary....all for me fill the bill.

I believe Jesus allowed Himself to be bound, in order to bind the strong man, His binding became our liberty, His death became our life, by destroying the power that bound us so that the house of death could be emptied.

For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God,having been put to death in the flesh but made alive in the Spirit, in which He also went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison, who were once disobedient when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, as the ark was being constructed, in which a few, that is 8 persons were brought safely through the water. Corresponding to that baptism now saves/delivers/heas you (1 Pet 3).....(saved through water and spirit....also see strong man/horse and rider/carnal man stronghold here as "they were all baptized in the Red Sea....")  :2c:

[donken]

First I see the strong man as the carnal man. Christ is plundering his house. he is bound by the gospel.

In another sense I can see the strong man as Satan.

IMO Jesus bound the strong man(both/ either) at the cross "having disarmed the principalities and powers", also "I will sing unto the Lord for He has triumphed gloriously, the horse and rider thrown into the sea".... Again I see the horse and rider as the carnal man, but also as Satan because, "the spirit that now works in the sons of disobedience" is the one who binds them until the blood sets them free"..... Both the adverary and the carnal man work through the law as well, to bind men- as opposed to the "glorious liberty of the children of God". To this extent I can see donken's point about the letter of the word binding men's freedom from the Spirit- it's just that the scriptures are not the culprit, and the Spirit leads us and guides us into all truth by illuminating the Logos and bringing us into the mind of Christ- who is the spirit(2 Corinthians 3:16-18).

I see this further amplified in Peter's declaration, "You are the Messsiah, the Son of God". This revelation opens the door for the new creation, "If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved/healed/delivered"

This revelation is plundering the house of the dead, through the ecclesia - "the gates of sheol will not prevail against it"....."the last adversary is death".

death, the carnal man, satan, the adversary....all for me fill the bill.

I believe Jesus allowed Himself to be bound, in order to bind the strong man, His binding became our liberty, His death became our life, by destroying the power that bound us so that the house of death could be emptied.

For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God,having been put to death in the flesh but made alive in the Spirit, in which He also went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison, who were once disobedient when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, as the ark was being constructed, in which a few, that is 8 persons were brought safely through the water. Corresponding to that baptism now saves/delivers/heas you (1 Pet 3).....(saved through water and spirit....also see strong man/horse and rider/carnal man stronghold here as "they were all baptized in the Red Sea....")  :2c:

Hi.  Is there more than one strong man?  Or are all examples the "same" man or source.  There is only two men mentioned, although they may seem to have differing sources at times.   In Job all the things satan did is about everything man does naturally through war, greed, jealousy, power seeking, etc.  Fire from heaven is done today as napalm bombs, rockets, etc. from planes and drones, and even from strafing with bullets.  No mystery there.

The new man is identified for us by Jesus through the cross, yes.  He exhibited or witnessed as the attributes of the Father in him as love, kindness, healing/restoring, compassion, resurrection or making alive that which was\is dead, etc.  The spirit of all those kind of actions and deeds and the forgiveness of all the blind\ignorant\don't know what they are doing etc. was DONE by Jesus and thus is a witness of the father in him.

The enmity, the carnal attributes of the carnal nature and mind, called the lusts of the flesh, were "bound" or not allowed to react or cause him to be physically vengeful upon man and in doing so, all the lusts that he did not show as being his lifestyle and actions\deeds identify the ENMITY for us.  Keeping the lusts of the flesh for the needs of the flesh only, and not allowing them to cause himself to use them to the harm or detriment of anyone reveals the things in us that are only of the old man, the strong man that thinks many lusts of the flesh, including the anger and wrath, are of God ALSO.  That is the struggle going on here and everywhere, and it will be won when we recognize Jesus for who he is, and who we are to now become.  He did not wrath or anger with His body.

1Jn_2:27  But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ***ye need not that any man teach you ***: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Jesus said, about man...    Joh_5:34  But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
           and...  Joh 2:24  But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
Joh 2:25  And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was ** in ** man.

What was IN MAN already.  The enmity of the lusts of the creation and how it must live of it's own works and the separation of the lusts of the Spirit that is God is what Jesus' witness of only the father IS.  There is a witness of TWO things in the scriptures, especially in the O.T.

Here is what some scripture says about itself.     1Co_15:3  For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co_15:4  And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

The things that KILL Jesus that are written about in the scriptures, which includes the stoning of sinners even though he was not a sinner, is about DEATH of JESUS.  These type of scriptures are not about THE LIFE OF JESUS.

The resurrection or restoring of Jesus to life is not about HIS DEATH and are different scriptures, contrary to those which are fulfilled by His being beaten, slain, and buried.   There is a dichotomy in the scripture and as Timothy says, we are to rightly divide the word of truth.  There is a truth about God and good and a truth about evil and death\carnal, but the two are CONTRARY to one another and one of them has to be put away correctly if we are to SEE GOD with the veil of Moses, the spirit of condemnation and death REMOVED from our belief ABOUT GOD that was INCLUDED in the promises that were also mentioned in the O.T..
The promises have nothing to do with death, and of course, God is not double minded or two faced etc.  Man is.  Who rejected Jesus because they believed in God through Moses and the prophets and the stories of war and so on.  Natural minded sincere believers... the strong man who makes the belief of God include Carnal lusts.

Bless, ken

[eaglesway]

Who rejected Jesus because they believed in God through Moses and the prophets and stories about war etc.

This is simply contrary to the testimony of scripture. The dichotomy you speak of does not involve invalidating Moses and the prophets, or excising the history of Israel and wars executed by the command of God through Moses and Joshua or the Kings of Israel in the kingdom period.

The ministry of the prophets was to interpret the word in the spirit for the Israelites, and looking ahead, for us.

The Sanhedrin rejected Jesus because they had defiled the law by adding a multitude of self serving rituals, traditions and ordinances to the law. Jesus Himself said they were guilty of "swallowing camels and straining at gnats". They did not hear the testimony of their own prophets concerning justice, equity, mercy and yes, indeed, peace.

One thing I do think you are correct about, in terms of the principles of God, is His mandate for peace. However, the adversary of peace was not and is not the scriptures.

Had the Israelites listened to the words of Moses and the prophets, they would have received their Messiah with joy. It was because He came as a sword, diving asunder soul and spirit, bone and marrow, making manifest the secret motivations of the heart(Heb 4), that they rejected Him.

This is the reason anyone rejects Him.

"And men chose the darkness over the light because their deeds were evil"

God has delivered the world into the hand of man. He is winning man back to Himself through an administration suitable to the fulness of time. The age before Jesus, from Abraham to Christ, was a period similar to Genesis 1, "and the world was without form and void and the Spirit hovered over the waters.......and God said, "Let there be light".

This is truly the process in some measure in every age until God becomes all in all, but in the age of which we speak, the foundations for the age in which we, as believers laboring now, were set. The OT is the record of that creative step towards the fulfillment of God's plan of the ages.

It is impossible to rightly divide the word of God until one has been rightly divided by the Sword of the Spirit, separated, so to speak, flesh and spirit, bone and marrow.his was the ministry of the prophets to Israel.

Paul says it was the Spirit of Christ testifying through them.

Moses testified of Jesus, and met with Him on the Mount of transfiguration. Moses met with God face to face.

The veil referred to in 2 Corinthians 3:13-18 is not the OT scriptures or Moses or the law. The veil is what keeps someone from understanding the place of Moses and the law and the prophets and the House of David within the overall cosmology of God and His purpose in the ages. The veil keeps people from seeing the Logos in all the scriptures, and missing the lesson intended.

As soon as Jesus began to teach, Moses and the law and the prophets were consumed and fulfilled in the words of the Messiah.

I understand your aversion to violence and death. But in my opinion God has no such aversion. He uses death, and war is something He understands, and at times, underwrites.

And their was war in heaven......

The unfortunate side affect of chaos is destruction, "but it is God who  said "Light shall shine out of darkness" and has shone in our hearts.." We are indeed a priesthood of peacemakers, raising before the world a Temple of Peace, a House of Prayer for All People.

God has set the contrast of darkness, the contrast of chaos, as a backdrop upon which to teach all mankind and every angelic being the glory of His love and the joy of His glory.

The OT is part and parcel, WHOLE  CLOTH, with that.

I will re-iterate again that the absolute policy of this forum is the veracity and integrity of all the scriptures of the Bible. Opinions to the contrary may be tolerated for a bit for the purpose of understanding a persons perspective. Once it is clear that someone is teaching that the scriptures are not dependable, then it is best that person find a forum where such a debate is appropriate.

Here we are focused on the salvation of all and making room for individuals to advance their own pet theologies is limited. As I am understanding what I have read in you posts so far, you are skating on the edge of our limits :o)

[sheila]

in regard to our vision..the eye and the perception of light/sight....if we close one eye....we have a blind spot..funny thing

about the 'eye' is that the optic nerve that allows us to have vision.....it is it;s presence that both allows to see,and creates the

blind spot.  For this reason....   the seeing eye to eye is necessarry for the 'blind spot' to be removed.

  most people go through life with one eye closed,so to speak...we can turn a blind eye to that which 'bothers' or disturbs us..

   to correctly see the image of God..we need both the new and old testaments..otherwise we have a blind spot ...and that blind spot

   is both He that gives light and He that conceals himself.  with binocular vision..the blind spot is removed...

  a  veiled eye has a blind spot in it's middle........through two eyes..what lies in the middle can be seen.

   in the same way..you may perceive God in the middle between he on the left hand and he on the right hand

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen eaglesway.......and to Sheila also an amen......one can glean so much out of comparing natural to spiritual, amen? You'd almost be led to believe He planned it that way.  :laughing7:  Blessings....

[donken]

Hi .  the scriptures need to be divided.  Moses and the prophets, and the church as well through history, were a CHILD.  A child is subject to, and under the spirit of the world that is in them.  See Galatians 4.  We need to "overcome the world" to have the hidden manna, meaning see with one eye, as it were.  The one eye is the eye of our understanding without having a double minded idea about what the spirit of life, which IS GOD, is.  We must see all scripture from the point of view of LIFE only.  That is the one eye of our mind.  Then we see how God Himself fulfills the scriptures. 

There are many scriptures that are ONLY fulfilled by man and the world.  When God THE SPIRIT, does them, they are fulfilled SPIRITUALLY within man and not UPON the physical body of Man. 

Man is like a child who is not obedient to his parents and in deed can not be.  Anyone who has children can understand that even though they are "genetically" in the child they do not rule IN or within that child.  Their maturity and knowledge and understanding of what is good and what is bad etc. {even though humanity does not have it correct either} is not WITHIN the child and is not able to be done by the child.  Good parents strive all the generations of their child, as long as the child is under their roof and wishes to stay there, to mature the child and give the child information and manners etc. that will keep the child safe while in the world.  But they themselves, who they are "spiritually, mentally, and experiencially", does not RULE WITHIN THE CHILD.

Romans 8 tells us that all the while we are being made we are subject to vanity, meaning we are not able to be subject to God Spiritually.  Man is still being formed into the image of God but we are now very very close to the Kingdom of Jesus Christ in the creation, as Jesus Christ ourselves.  We are going to remain in the world for a time and put it into God's order by following the Spirit of Christ in us who we WILL BE, having ONE EYE {mind}.

A double minded man receives nothing from the Lord and is unstable in all his ways scripture says.   What I am saying is that not all scripture is about God or the Spirit of God. For instance, when the ten commandments were given, Deut. 5:22 tells us that at first, this is ALL THEY RECEIVED.  When they were broken, then they were to understand that they were under another spirit, not under God's Spirit. 

Deu 5:22 {KJV}  These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

This is the heart that God is going to put into us that the scriptures say he will do.  But we have at present another heart\spirit that is not one with the Lord God.  That is the spirit of man that can not know the things of the Spirit of God as 1 Cor. 2 tells us.  Paul tells us we can be "Christians" and still have this human spirit as if it were all of God.  1 Cor. 3:1 - 3, walking as men with envy and strife etc.  So, envy and strife like the O.T. is full of, must not be God's spirit.

What I am saying about  violence is that man DARE not believe Jesus fully because HE says .. be like me and trust in God to keep you safe and alive for as long as HE wills you to live.   That is trusting Christ.  But... we are not going to be safe or out of trouble IF we make ourselves a squeaky wheel and try to make others who do not believe these particular things of Christ "do them".   The strong man, who trusts in his own life in the world in his body hates this truth.

As to war, human methods of trying to get someone other than themselves to do something the warring faction wants them to do because they are not doing it, that is NOT OF GOD and is not a witness of God's METHODS.  Moses and the prophets and Israel were the spirit of man.  Please think if you as a Christian right now could teach some of the things Moses and the prophets and the priesthood of Israel sincerely taught and believed now as being following Christ.  Such as stoning sinners physically, etc.  Capital punishment, etc.  Yes man does it, the spirit of man, but we singly as Christians in the world are to keep away and out of these things.

Evangelists, even those God works with quite a lot say, do not teach the new Christians that they are to be quiet and keep out of quarrels and not rebel against the kings and rulers and governors of the countries they are in.  So what happens, they are told sometimes to make all their neighbours Christians too and in doing so they are prejudiced against, disobey the peace of Christ in ignorance and with the carnal methods of mankind They then and are slain and killed and jailed and so on, by people acting the same way the Christians do against the rulers of the country they are in.  We are told to PRAY.  How many times even in the old testament do you see Israel being freed from a country they are subject to that is not theirs by violence done by Israel.  None.

Even during the Exodus from Egypt Israel was not freed from Egypt and Pharaoh by their own warfare. Israel used no methods of their own physical power in being released from the power of the government of Pharaoh and Egypt.   Let me ask you this at this time, please.  I am not asking for you to tell me the answer, I would like you to think about the answer FOR YOU as to what you would do?

Could you as a Christian kill another person for whatever reason you may think good.   And, if you could would you be able to say you were witnessing what Christ in you wanted you to do?  How about stealing food even to give to someone else.  How about lying on taxes.  etc.

If Christ is in us, and we do things that we even have an "inkling" or suspicion about IN US that they were something we should not have done, "IF" we follow that we will begin seeing Christ much more fully as we travel along that road.  I would like to say it this way.  What is being "resurrected" in us today is the conscience we all have killed as little children in times past, some more than others, and sometimes because of evil done to us.

But we need that conscience as the Spirit of Christ in us, and this is what we can identify as the resurrection of the spirit of Christ in us to guide us as to what we should do and should not do if we want to marry the Spirit of God as His son. The union as a mature son as who we are to be is produced out of that marriage process.  While we are not or may not be fully THE SON we are the woman spiritually that has the Spirit in us as our husband\guide, some double mindedness in us.  But if we recognize what God desires, the woman, {the spirit of man} will become one with the Spirit of God, and we become THE SON Of that union, with the Father fully in us as who we are, the divine nature.
The woman that becomes one with God as the "husbandman", {which means gardener also}, is the FLESH BODY which then will be, of that union, Jesus Christ the Son of GOD with the Father, eternal life in holiness, IN THEM.

Even the very rich, dishonest, immoral, greedy Christians who are the billionaires in the world and give a pittance of what they have to charity with great fanfare and news paper notoriety as being good some how when their gains have been received through ungodly practices, or some ungodly practices, are going to begin to be dealt with in this way.  Keep on doing the opposite of the "conscience" we can say, and a very deep darkness will begin to develop greater and greater in us.  This is the sign or the image that the story of Jonah in the belly of the whale implies happens when God tells us what to do and we run away from doing it.

This is not a fairly tale any more.  How do we think God is going to do this.  Not by violence from Him.  WE are to be relieved of our bondage to our Egypt, {the spirit of the world} without the use of ANY CARNAL METHODS AT ALL.  We are not to use carnal methods either, beyond the parameters Christ Jesus shows us in his walk in Israel in the world. Jesus still had to eat, sleep, breath, and so on.  We can eat, no stealing or taking it from another without being given it, etc.

This is the DAY of the Lord.  Before this we were all in the night where NO MAN could or did work {Could not do the works of God fully}.

If we are not walking in God's ways, we will be using our own natural worldly ways.  This is the perfecting time, beginning at the HOUSE OF GOD, Christians first. This will not end until all have been dealt with WHEN they are able to know the truth and do it.  Not when they can not do it. Like children are not expected to do adult things when they are not adult, but they begin to learn what to do as they become an adult over time.

God bless, in the Peace of righteousness that is of GOD.   Donken.

[sheila]

  IS this Julie?  Julie seemed to be of the same spirit..denying the flood etc. you sure remind me of 'her"

[donken]

Hello Sheila.   No, this is not Julie.  I am in Canada, if that helps.   The flood today is that which is pictured as the water that comes out from under the throne of God and out into the world to the ankles, the knees, and on to waters to swim in.  The flood that is the Spirit poured upon us {all} from on high.  The spirit.
A spiritually understood reality of the physical picture presented above.   THIS DAY is like the days of Noah, but the flood coming is Spiritual, not physical.

What I am saying is... build the ark NOW, the body of Christ.   A spiritual reality of a story presently understood physically by the two eyes of natural man.  I am not saying that no one sees anything at all.  I am saying our speech as Christians is confounded a the moment by different views of the same "tower" which does not allow us to build the ark fully.

The bible is in some cases at least, historical information.  But as to Spiritual information, it is pretty well ALL spiritually understood.   Just as the death of Christ Jesus is said to be what we are doing as Christians SPIRITUALLY within us, when we disobey Jesus' way, truth, and life.
Heb 6:1  Therefore ***leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ***, let us go on unto ***perfection***; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,    {does this not imply moving on}
Heb 6:2  Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3  And this will we do, if God permit.
Heb 6:4  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6  If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they ***crucify to themselves*** the Son of God ***afresh***, and put him to an open shame.

Do we think this can not happen, crucifying Jesus Christ IN OURSELVES all over again or "afresh".  I say that afresh, or all over again, means we all already did it once Spiritually, but in ignorance as a human baby in the earth.  Crucify Christ WITHIN OURSELVES is the Spiritual truth of the physical act in Israel, showing what was already done spiritually at the formation of the creation that was not finished yet.

"The real flood".     Isa 32:14  Because the palaces shall be forsaken; the multitude of the city shall be left; the forts and towers shall be for dens for ever, a joy of wild asses, a pasture of flocks;
Isa 32:15  Until the spirit be poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness be a fruitful field, and the fruitful field be counted for a forest.
Isa 32:16  Then judgment shall dwell in the wilderness, and righteousness remain in the fruitful field.

Rev_5:13  And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Eze 47:1  Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar.
Eze 47:2  Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side.
Eze 47:3  And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ankles.
Eze 47:4  Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins.
Eze 47:5  Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.

donken

[eaglesway]

Hi  ken,

I read your post, and I enjoyed it, but you are not hearing me in the perspective from which I am speaking. It is not about, "What I would do". I hope I would trust God and would obey Him in the moment were He to lead me to lay down my life as a sacrifice. What I am saying, is that while many of your posts have some great insights, you have a fatal error warning flashing- a spiritual blue screen so to speak-AS RELATES TO THE POLICIES OF THIS SITE.

The things you attribute the carnality of man are often, as I read it, IN ERROR, which would not be such a problem if you did not present them as teaching.

For instance,  "A broken and a contrite heart, O God, you will not despise". This is OT and the core truth of all that is written. This is where the divine nature and teaching about the divine nature and the maturity of sons, begins. Teaching on walking in His ways did not begin in the NT. It did not begin with Jesus.

Certainly, as I have said MANY TIMES over the length of our discourse, the NT scriptures transcend and fulfill the law and the prophets.

You are saying, if I understand you correctly, that the scriptures of Moses and the prophets are of man. You are incorrect, as I see it and as the forum policy sees it. Teaching this about the scriptures IS NOT ALLOWED within the purpose and parameters of this site.

We have many believers who come through here to promote fringe theologies that are not centered in the purpose of the forum- WHICH IS TO PROMOTE THE GOSPEL OF THE SALVATION OF ALL- which is the one true gospel of God, the mystery of His purpose made known as Peter declared, BY ALL THE PROPHETS OF OLD.

Other theological emphasies are held by various members of the site. They can be presented in the form of opinions in the course of discussion- but they cannot be taught as "the obvious truth" because they are in dispute and are not facilitating the focus of the forum.

If you do not believe, for instance, that God overthrew Jericho, or that Samson was equipped to judge the Philistines, or that David was anointed to kill Goliath, and that the stories are of of man- that is your private business and belief, but you cannot teach it here.

The other issue, which is also about the forum's policy and accepted behavior is this. You present your positions as teachings and as fact. You come on as a teacher, and even if you are a teacher, you cannot teach here. You may express your opinions here. You cannot teach that the old testament scriptures are of man here, or that Moses and the prophets were not messengers of God.

Period.

We share as equals, brothers, sisters. When discussing differences of opinion(your positions are opinions here on this forum) we have to step down/back into a humble opinion...... and we are not interested in debating issues that involve denying the inspiration of any of the scriptures of the Bible beyond translation issues or issues of interpolations- which are still to be "discussed" as opposed to "taught".

In your reasonings, you rarely if ever address the verses presnted from the NT stating the inspiration behind the OT. Your reasonings are acceptable for you to hold, but they are not sufficiently meritorious to be "taught", and again- they conflict with the policies and purposes of this forum.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: My  :2c:. Unity in the Spirit is not about what we say, it's about what we hear, and that by the Spirit. It's a work of the Spirit by the Spirit IN OUR SPIRIT. Tongues will cease when that which is perfect has come.

I used to think that meant the tongues of Pentecost will cease, until I found out via the Spirit, it means that you only hear one TONGUE, the Spirit of God speaking out of whoever He pleases, and HE translates via understanding what is said = another form of tongues and interpretation on a "higher" level. And it doesn't matter if they are speaking in a known language or an unknown (literal tongues of Pentecost) language, deep calls unto deep and deep HEARS.

I've heard Him speak in people that by the doctrines of men, were not "saved", yet the Spirit spoke out of them. If you hear His voice, there is no mistaking it, no matter the vessel it comes through, no matter if it speaks out of a donkey, His voice is heard, above the natural that is spoken.

Therefore, because of this, I realized, that the unity of the Spirit is already there because His Spirit is not divided, but because of our limitations/boundaries of the flesh, we cannot perceive it except through His Spirit. Once again, it's ALL ABOUT HIM. IMO and for whosoever will.....Blessings...

[donken]

Hi.  Unity will be all about what we DO.  It is what we do as mature Christians in the world that will bring the new world into existence.  The world as it is now as far as our societies are concerned, exist according to how people in those societies live and what they do and how they do them.   

The new world will be a different society, to use a word, but the same planet.  It will be different because there will be no murder, theft, cheating, lying, etc. and no greed and dictatorship methods used to rule and the environment and medicine will be correctly understood.  Peace will reign because righteousness will be the way of the day.

As well, the mature Christians will be the Jesus Christ for this creation and will bring all the universe into LIFE as the Garden of GOD.  We are only now coming to the place where man is finally going to be THAT GARDENER that is waking up now.  That is what I am saying.  We are now in need of building our own ark to survive the flood of the Spirit that is coming.  If we do not, we will be "someone" who is not yet the possessor of the promises of GOD and those parts of us that are not obedient to Jesus Christ will have to be "burned up" etc.   Like in Noah's day, what was no more seen was unbelief, but only when the flood waters came would those who did not believe before they came, believe.  They would believe because of seeing and experiencing what was spoken to them about what was coming some day soon.

It is better to believe without {BEFORE} seeing than to believe by seeing.

God bless,  donken

[WhiteWings]

Hello.  I think that if most of you think about it, you probably have all shared and talked about scripture with many people and those who are already of an opinion that is formed of the bible or scriptures they use, and they have a different understanding already of the scriptures being shared, that there is hardly ever, if any at all, change of opinion by anyone.  The letter of scripture then becomes useless almost.  The SPIRIT is what believes the truth and it is in the believer, but the natural literal understanding of the scriptures will remain firm.  That is the strong man that Christ has to bind before "those" goods can be changed\destroyed.

Talking scripture is almost useless with people who already are scripture based and are sincere and faithful to what they\we believe.  What one believes is who they are at the moment.  Hebrew, Greek, English, whatever.  There are very many different meanings of the same word, especially in Hebrew, and one picks the one they like best that fits what they already believe the best.   The hearer is always the interpreter, no matter what the speaker or writer means themselves.

Bless, ken

I'm NOT saying the Spirit is useless. Far from that. But still I think it will not give perfect understanding either. Lemme explain.
The written Word is perfect. Still mankind manages to find countless different interpretations. Partly because it's honestly misunderstood. Partly because it has to fit some doctrine.

Just like the written Word the Spirit Word is perfect. Personally I have had several dreams with I'm quite sure of come from God. While I'm 100% sure those dreams are flawless I have no clue what they mean. Simply put: The dream is perfect but my brains are not. If I tried hard I can even start my own doctrine based on those dreams. But how much better would that be than the written Word? I think in many cases a lot worse because nobody can verify my dreams but everyone can verify what's written.

Several times there were some heated discussions her on TM. Some said "Scripture clearly states A". But others answered "True but obviously we should stick to "Spiritual interpretation B".

So while hearing the Spirit is great I fear it often will turn out a bigger mess. Misunderstood, simply abused and add the flawed understanding of the written Word to it. :sigh:

[donken]

Hey, my friends who disagree with each other as well as with me on many things.

Look, what is coming is the resurrection of the conscience of Jesus Christ in the believers to become eventually, all people as Christians.  There will always be infants being born and children in the world, spiritually.  They will always grow to adult spiritual maturity as Jesus Christ here in the world, the potters wheel.

The mar in the clay is there all the time the potter works with it, until the mar {power of the law of sin} is finally removed and the clay is fired and finished.

There is a flood coming upon us today, started as a little stream right now, that will cause all unbelief to "drown" or have no active life "in our understanding" any longer.   We must build THE ARK, Jesus' body, which as an adult does no sin or ungodliness even though still in this creation\world.  That is the "firing".

Do what Jesus said, forget about striving about words and so on that are not profiting, and we will KNOW THE TRUTH by being it.  The father is IN JESUS Christ the mature son in the world in a flesh body, and that lifestyle, minus sin, anger, etc. will show us God the eternal spirit by us being ONE WITH THE SPIRIT that is our father.  Life is the father of all living, but all living do not live the WAY of God in this creation.  DO JESUS' WORDS in our own life and forget the striving.

If we are the ark of the covenant, the body of Jesus that contains the ten commandments, life from the dead, and the manna that is hidden to all that do not have it WITHIN THEM, we will not have to have some things drowned in us.

this is or will be close to my final word on these topics here.

1Th_4:11  And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;
2Ti_2:15  Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Even if any think or believe that God does evil, let yourselves not do it, walk with the words of Christ Jesus ALIVE and being fulfilled in you, resist the doing of evil which is also done by anger as the overall "motivation" and obey Jesus and find out what Spirit HE IS.  And... that will be the father in you.  IF one can not see themselves walking in that honesty or "weakness" as they may see it to be, yet, fine, do as much as you find or believe possible and let all the others strive about the words and their ideas about what they mean, etc.     That is all.  That is my advice, my take.   Hardly can one talk about doing it if they do not believe it, and that too is understood.

God bless, donken.