L Ray Smith

[sj]

I was just wondering what you guys think of L Ray Smith.  I spent some time reading his stuff when the Tentmaker site was down, and found it very interesting and easy to follow (which is a necessity where I'm concerned!).  He can be a bit abrasive, though, and is not slow to attack anyone who he deems to be outside of the truth.  I was somewhat disappointed to see him make a reference to Gary Amirault in one of his e-mail replies - something about Gary saying that Hitler is now with God in heaven.  Anyway, it was quite derogatory and it left a sour taste in my mouth.

It would be interesting to know what others think. 

Sue

[martincisneros]

I personally think he's a "Gary Amirault" on speed and acid  :happy3:

Just a wee bit more ornery  :laughing7:

:icon_jokercolor:  :icon_jokercolor:  :icon_jokercolor:

[martincisneros]

I like both of them by the way

[martincisneros]

Well, no one who believes in the Universal Restoration does ever ultimately block the gates of Heaven for Hitler.  The question is always a matter of timing and God's methods with them.  I still lean in the direction of the writings of Charles Chauncy, Elhanan Winchester, and Andrew Jukes that Hitler may be jumping through quite a few flaming hoops on his way up there.

[SeekerSA]

Like all, L.Ray has his faults.

The one thing I believe taints him the most is the forum which makes him out to be some demi-god of sorts.  You cannot speak against or discuss in a negative way stuff you may not agree with. Before any dialogue can transpire, the thread is locked if you are lucky or completely deleted.  That to me is censorship in the worst way.

He is abrasive but being openly labelled as a heretic probably is a hard pill to swallow and is probaly tired of all the critisizm.  Then again, you want to fly high, you are going to get more than a few bug splats on your windscreen.

He probably needs some lessons in PR.

I found TM more with a loving and open spirit and a place where questions can be asked without a thus sayeth Gary response, rather responses from many different viewpoints.

As for Hitler, UR means ALL, we cannot be selective and believe in UR.

Blessings

[martincisneros]

I've heard that about L. Ray Smith, that he's pretty bad with censorship, but I've never experienced that degree of heavy handedness.  He does seem rather "cowboy" for lack of a better way of putting it, and if it weren't for his criticisms of different Gospel administrations for Jews/Gentiles (which I also have quite a few bones to pick with), then he'd probably have quite a bit in common with Zender.

L. Ray comes across to me as just that type, where there's no telling what's liable to come out of the guy's mouth in person.

That's just my impression of him, but I could be wrong.  He might run a tighter "speaking" ship than I do where such and such isn't about to come outta his mouth.  But I'm seldom wrong on that kind of first impression of someone.

[sj]

Sorry, I think you misunderstood the bit about Hitler (or rather, I didn't explain it properly!).  L Ray didn't say Hitler wouldn't be saved, but he was saying that he was not with God now (as supposedly Gary believes), but that he was still very much dead, in the grave, awaiting resurrection and judgment.

Sue   

[martincisneros]

One thing that I like about L. Ray Smith is that he's got an interesting introductory note with maybe a couple thousand Scriptures where he does a good job at poking holes in the whole idea of there being "a Gospel to the circumcision" and "a Gospel to the uncircumcision."  His stuff isn't as conclusive against it as he might think.  I could poke a couple of holes in his presentation.  But he claims to have additional material against such nonsense that he hasn't posted yet, that he will if there's sufficient interest in follow up beyond what he's already written about it.  That was the most bizzare teaching that I'd ever heard when I bumped into that about 5 or 6 years ago for the very first time.  I grew up in a camp that perfectly harmonized the books of Hebrews, James, and Peter's epistles with Paul's writings, the 4 Gospels, etc.  The thought that the New Testament contradicts itself on such a broad range had never even entered into my thinking before.  There's slight testimony differences depending on eye witness accounts in the Gospels and/or what was being emphasized at the time by the particular authors and/or those they interviewed, but this idea that there's a road of salvation through works and a road that's nothing but greesy grace that sits on it's blessed assurance and doesn't do anything worthwhile whatsoever is total heresy.  Paul's Gospel is one of obedience from Romans chapter 1 through the book of Philemon.  Paul may emphasize obedience to the Scriptures and to the Spirit quite a bit more than any other New Testament writer.

Not a lot that L. Ray Smith and I would agree on 100%, but I definitely appreciate that one, that he's more than willing to chase that one all the way to Tartarus and back.

[Seeker]

I liked his thread about Tithing being unscriptural.  He really broke down some scriptures that I think I was definately misunderstanding. 

I would say after reading it, a seed was planted in my heart for two things:  1.  Hunger to seek more knowledge on my own  2.  Curiosity about Universalist ideas

SeekerRuth

[believur]

I have read pretty much all of his site.  I also used to be a member on his board, but was banned.  They really do exalt him there.

I do agree with most of what he teaches.  I could do without the sarcasm all of the time, however.  Don't disagree with him, whatever you do. :msealed:

I like his ex-partner, Mike Vinson.  His teaching is less abrasive. 

I do agree with Ray that when you die, you are dead.  The body returns to the dust of the earth, the soul dies and the spirit returns to the father.  You know nothing again until you are resurrected.  JMO

[martincisneros]

That type of belief is just another throwback to the eternal torture of "unbelieving mankind" except with a TEMPORAL SPIN put upon the position. 

Were atonement, forgiveness, and reconciliation all that the Father were after, then I might agree with the "death and glory" brand of UR, but the Father's got much deeper goals than that, including salvaging the character of not only Hitler but of the 6 million Jews that he killed who were cursing Hitler all of the way "to Hell" for what he was doing to their families, friends, spouses, neighbors, rabbis, torah scrolls, etc.

Our personalities are often forged and/or reclaimed in hard times, as though that were - in part - a necessary catalyst, and even to act as a mold for shaping out the molten grace of God as it slightly cools with the moisture of the tears of our gratitude for all of Father's mercies.

[martincisneros]

I'll go so far as to point out the difference between the UR message that was predominantly preached in the first 3 and a half centuries of Christianity and what was preached thereafter until Justinian condemned it in the 6th century in the Home Synod.  I'd of thoroughly condemned the UR of the 6th century as well, viz., this "everybody goes to heaven automatically AND IMMEDIATELY" inspite of their beliefs, lifestyle, and dying with the hardest heart against Christ.

No, I have to say with Origen, that the Lord is not ignorant of the means necessary to reclaim hardened sinners.

I just wouldn't have taken it as far as Justinian did with using unscriptural language to defend ET.

[Taffy]

I was just wondering what you guys think of L Ray Smith.  I spent some time reading his stuff when the Tentmaker site was down, and found it very interesting and easy to follow (which is a necessity where I'm concerned!).  He can be a bit abrasive, though, and is not slow to attack anyone who he deems to be outside of the truth.  I was somewhat disappointed to see him make a reference to Gary Amirault in one of his e-mail replies - something about Gary saying that Hitler is now with God in heaven.  Anyway, it was quite derogatory and it left a sour taste in my mouth.

It would be interesting to know what others think. 

Sue

Hi Sue.
I'm up to speed with all that Ray Smith has written on...hes easy reading.. and like yourself i was a member for quite a while.

Ray Smith is Ray Smith ..He states clearly what and why he believes  and invites those who oppose him to contact him...by the way I'm not a supporter ,....

His forum has changed somewhat over the years , but its still heavily moderated , I know the longer serving mods and Team well from my days there..and still remain in contact with a couple..althou we opt to see a few issues differently.

Ray  is an ex wwcg as is Dennis ..personally i found the heavy manner in which they deal with members who  may differ on a few issues very similar to my time in the WWCG....

The board is not there to FREELY discuss Topics which Ray has not written on or that which MAY seem to undermime that which he has....years back all posts were vetted before being posted.......THAT HAS NOW CHANGED but posts are soon deleted if they seem to contravine the author of the site.........

Many members left or were quietly banished some time back ....but throu division comes unity ..yet another  forum was raised from the fall out.........

Blessings
Taffy

[Pierac]

I have really enjoyed reading Ray's work. However, He lost me with his twin towers crap. I really like his older material. Good stuff. He was a major factor of me coming to UR. Thank God he did not have that twin tower stuff back then or I would have never read his material. Still, I never agreed with it all, but you must admit he's got some good papers! I would say the same for Mike Vinson at http://www.iswasandwillbe.com/

I think something happened to them both when they got popular and split. They seemed to feel the need to keep putting out material that was greater and better than before. Instead they got wierd. Really wierd. I'm so glad that Gary is not on the forum as a controller of the moderators. I would hate to see that happen here. I think it's better to promote an idea than to try and become a symbol of that idea.

Paul

[martincisneros]

I think something happened to them both when they got popular and split.

God, save us all from the trap of popularity! I've dodged several (i.e., quite a few) "opportunities" this year because they would have been the fast track to the very thing that you were talking about, and then all of the carnal pressures of "one-ups-manship" if God's not the One Who brought the exaltation.  I'm not 100% sure that "my message," "my perspective," "my Gospel," or "what the beep ever" is even fully formulated yet.  I know more than I can often say or write.  I've always felt it was better that until the ability to really share was actually granted by the Holy Spirit that it was always just best to try to shut up, sit down, and let others whom the Lord has already prepared do all of the talking.

[mrsnacks]

I have much respect for both L.Ray and Mike Vinson.  I have learned so much from both. I have had much correspondence with Mike personally and he has been a great help. A very kind man.  I agree L Ray is a little rough around the edges, but anyone would be reading some of the nasty and foolish emails he gets. Jesus wasn't too nicey nicey with the Pharisees. Rather sarcastic. Niceness isn't a fruit of the Spirit.

I spend more time at Mike's site. Hope this helps.

[Cindi]

 :offtopic:   I don't mean to hijack this thread, but Martin, I notice that you have allcreatures.org in your signature.  I am not a vegetarian but I have read some of Dr. Kaufman's articles on theology, violence and sacrifice.  Are you familiar with that aspect of the website?

Cindi....
Mercy Not Sacrifice

[martincisneros]

:offtopic:   I don't mean to hijack this thread, but Martin, I notice that you have allcreatures.org in your signature.  I am not a vegetarian but I have read some of Dr. Kaufman's articles on theology, violence and sacrifice.  Are you familiar with that aspect of the website?

Cindi....
Mercy Not Sacrifice

Hi Cindi,

I'm not sure which part of the website that you're talking about.  It's kind of a big website.  Might take me a while to find what you were talking about.  If there's any blatant ET, it hasn't stopped my writings and the writings of other blatant Universalists from being posted on the site.  I'm at the Animal Gospel site that they host and Bernie Coombs, from Australia, is at the All Creatures Do Go To Heaven website and his site with them gets into the salvation of Satan and other things that I haven't even touched on my site with them.

Martin

[Cindi]

Hi Cindi,

I'm not sure which part of the website that you're talking about.  It's kind of a big website.  Might take me a while to find what you were talking about.  If there's any blatant ET, it hasn't stopped my writings and the writings of other blatant Universalists from being posted on the site.  I'm at the Animal Gospel site that they host and Bernie Coombs, from Australia, is at the All Creatures Do Go To Heaven website and his site with them gets into the salvation of Satan and other things that I haven't even touched on my site with them.

Martin

Yes....I should have been a bit more specific....sorry.  I came across the allcreatures.org site via an article by Steven Kaufman who is associated with the site.  The article is called "The Problem of Human Violence" and is a rather long discussion of his view of scripture as seen through the lens of Rene' Girard's theory of mimesis and scapegoating.  I think it was sent out as a weekly devotional kind of thing and his plans are to actually put it in the form of a book.  From what I have read in his writings and the writings (which he says are his opinions and not necessarily those of the all creatures website) and of a few others on the website they do not see the atonement as substitutionary and do not believe that the requirement for blood sacrifice originated with God but is rather a perversion of man.  If you are interested I can find the links to the writings I am referring to. 

Cindi.....

Mercy Not Sacrifice 

[martincisneros]

Yes....I should have been a bit more specific....sorry.  I came across the allcreatures.org site via an article by Steven Kaufman who is associated with the site.....From what I have read in his writings and the writings (which he says are his opinions and not necessarily those of the all creatures website) and of a few others on the website they do not see the atonement as substitutionary and do not believe that the requirement for blood sacrifice originated with God but is rather a perversion of man.....

Cindi.....

Mercy Not Sacrifice 

Hi Cindi,

From what you're telling me, looks like we've got some gnostics on the site as well, or whatever.  Very interesting.  I did not know that.  Quite a few early Church Father quotes that could feed that kind of thinking, such as Clement of Alexandria believing that the book of Leviticus was written by fallen angels.  Means I've sure as beep been too tame on the website with my stuff.  I was coming in there all conciliatory as though I could bridge the gulf between conservative theology and Universalism via the Animal Gospel presentation of mine that I knew had blown their minds.  Sounds like I had more permission to sick 'em than I had any idea, if we're even allowing what sounds like a bunch of the modern Essene extremities from the Northwest U.S., Egypt, and elsewhere to creep onto the website.

Kinda means the allcreatures.org website's quite a bit more interesting than I even had any idea of.  Not saying I agree with the nonsense that you brought up.  Just means that as soon as word gets out about the site, my stuff that's on there is fixing to get SLAMMED with internet traffic.

I'm kinda wondering if the people behind allcreatures.org are deliberately allowing a certain amount of that with the calculated purpose of drawing internet traffic to the better stuff on the site.

[Pierac]

Martin wrote:  I'm not 100% sure that "my message," "my perspective," "my Gospel," or "what the beep ever" is even fully formulated yet.  I know more than I can often say or write.

I don't think we will ever leave this condition. It's part of our growth. Just when you think you have it all. God shows you different. Just like U.R. happened to me last year.

As for you comment:

I know more than I can often say

Where do you even start. Before you can complete a sentence, you get bombarded with the "what abouts!"  What about Hell, What about this, what about that. Usually within one minute you are labeled in their mind. They see your mouth moving but hear nothing, as they walk you to the exit door of their heart. (or building)

[martincisneros]

Martin wrote:  I'm not 100% sure that "my message," "my perspective," "my Gospel," or "what the beep ever" is even fully formulated yet.  I know more than I can often say or write.

I don't think we will ever leave this condition. It's part of our growth. Just when you think you have it all. God shows you different. Just like U.R. happened to me last year.

Romans 8 talks about being conformed to the image of God's dear Son so that with a fully spiritual mind you're not only not subject to the law of sin and death, but you're actively setting Creation free from it's bondage to decay and escorting all of the Creation around you into the liberties of the Children of God.  Galatians 4:19 talks about having Christ actually formed in you.  Ephesians 3:14-21 talks about coming to the place of KNOWING the length, breadth, depth, and height of the love of Christ, thereby being filled with all of the fullness of God.  Philippians 3 says that Paul didn't count himself to have apprehended BUT ONE THING forgetting those things which were behind and reaching forth to those things which were ahead HE PRESSED for the mark of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.  Hebrews 5:12-14 talks about coming to a place of maturity in the Gospel where even your physical body is a slave of the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.  1John 4 says that we can come to the place of being confident in the day of persecution because AS He IS, so are we in this world, because perfected love has cast all fear out of our lives.  And you reach for this perfected love running it's full course in your life through 1John 2:5: keeping His Word, presumably the way Paul talked about in Colossians 3:12-17.  I do believe like Mark 4 says that the Word can come to harvest; the Word can become flesh in our flesh IN THIS LIFE.

I'm definitely LIGHTYEARS beyond where I was in the 90s.  Looking at the childhood, juvenile, and adulthood that John in 1John 2, Paul throughout his writings, and Peter indicated in a place or two, I'm probably creeping into a slight comfort zone in the juvenile area.  I'm far enough along to where I can look at a lot of believers and say "there's MORE than where you're at" EVEN with a bunch of UR folks.  But my growing pains and occaisional 15 to 17 year old attitude are grossly apparent a whole lot of the time.

[crlnray]

 :2c:Here is my two cents,I learned a lot from L.Ray Smith.I don't think he knows it all,but has a lot right.I get the feeling he has been hurt.Lets just pray for him,and love him.Take the good leave the bad.crlnray

[martincisneros]

I don't think that there is such a thing as a Universalist whose got a serious bark and occaisional bite that hasn't been hurt and hurt badly by Christians or with the realization of how much fear that they NEEDLESSLY lived in for years over themselves and their family and other loved ones.  L. Ray is definitely in my prayers.

[Seeker]

I don't think that there is such a thing as a Universalist whose got a serious bark and occaisional bite that hasn't been hurt and hurt badly by Christians or with the realization of how much fear that they NEEDLESSLY lived in for years over themselves and their family and other loved ones.  L. Ray is definitely in my prayers.

Martin,
I think you have said it just right.  I think he has suffered...I've read the brutal written attacks against him.  I don't see how any human being can endure that without being hardened.  I will keep him in my prayers also.

-SeekerRuth