Tentmaker Forum

I was just wondering what you guys think of L Ray Smith.  I spent some time reading his stuff when the Tentmaker site was down, and found it very interesting and easy to follow (which is a necessity where I'm concerned!).  He can be a bit abrasive, though, and is not slow to attack anyone who he deems to be outside of the truth.  I was somewhat disappointed to see him make a reference to Gary Amirault in one of his e-mail replies - something about Gary saying that Hitler is now with God in heaven.  Anyway, it was quite derogatory and it left a sour taste in my mouth.

It would be interesting to know what others think. 

Sue

I personally think he's a "Gary Amirault" on speed and acid  :happy3:

Just a wee bit more ornery  :laughing7:

I like both of them by the way

Well, no one who believes in the Universal Restoration does ever ultimately block the gates of Heaven for Hitler.  The question is always a matter of timing and God's methods with them.  I still lean in the direction of the writings of Charles Chauncy, Elhanan Winchester, and Andrew Jukes that Hitler may be jumping through quite a few flaming hoops on his way up there.

Like all, L.Ray has his faults.

The one thing I believe taints him the most is the forum which makes him out to be some demi-god of sorts.  You cannot speak against or discuss in a negative way stuff you may not agree with. Before any dialogue can transpire, the thread is locked if you are lucky or completely deleted.  That to me is censorship in the worst way.

He is abrasive but being openly labelled as a heretic probably is a hard pill to swallow and is probaly tired of all the critisizm.  Then again, you want to fly high, you are going to get more than a few bug splats on your windscreen.

He probably needs some lessons in PR.

I found TM more with a loving and open spirit and a place where questions can be asked without a thus sayeth Gary response, rather responses from many different viewpoints.

As for Hitler, UR means ALL, we cannot be selective and believe in UR.

Blessings

I've heard that about L. Ray Smith, that he's pretty bad with censorship, but I've never experienced that degree of heavy handedness.  He does seem rather "cowboy" for lack of a better way of putting it, and if it weren't for his criticisms of different Gospel administrations for Jews/Gentiles (which I also have quite a few bones to pick with), then he'd probably have quite a bit in common with Zender.

L. Ray comes across to me as just that type, where there's no telling what's liable to come out of the guy's mouth in person.

That's just my impression of him, but I could be wrong.  He might run a tighter "speaking" ship than I do where such and such isn't about to come outta his mouth.  But I'm seldom wrong on that kind of first impression of someone.

Sorry, I think you misunderstood the bit about Hitler (or rather, I didn't explain it properly!).  L Ray didn't say Hitler wouldn't be saved, but he was saying that he was not with God now (as supposedly Gary believes), but that he was still very much dead, in the grave, awaiting resurrection and judgment.

Sue   

One thing that I like about L. Ray Smith is that he's got an interesting introductory note with maybe a couple thousand Scriptures where he does a good job at poking holes in the whole idea of there being "a Gospel to the circumcision" and "a Gospel to the uncircumcision."  His stuff isn't as conclusive against it as he might think.  I could poke a couple of holes in his presentation.  But he claims to have additional material against such nonsense that he hasn't posted yet, that he will if there's sufficient interest in follow up beyond what he's already written about it.  That was the most bizzare teaching that I'd ever heard when I bumped into that about 5 or 6 years ago for the very first time.  I grew up in a camp that perfectly harmonized the books of Hebrews, James, and Peter's epistles with Paul's writings, the 4 Gospels, etc.  The thought that the New Testament contradicts itself on such a broad range had never even entered into my thinking before.  There's slight testimony differences depending on eye witness accounts in the Gospels and/or what was being emphasized at the time by the particular authors and/or those they interviewed, but this idea that there's a road of salvation through works and a road that's nothing but greesy grace that sits on it's blessed assurance and doesn't do anything worthwhile whatsoever is total heresy.  Paul's Gospel is one of obedience from Romans chapter 1 through the book of Philemon.  Paul may emphasize obedience to the Scriptures and to the Spirit quite a bit more than any other New Testament writer.

Not a lot that L. Ray Smith and I would agree on 100%, but I definitely appreciate that one, that he's more than willing to chase that one all the way to Tartarus and back.

I liked his thread about Tithing being unscriptural.  He really broke down some scriptures that I think I was definately misunderstanding. 

I would say after reading it, a seed was planted in my heart for two things:  1.  Hunger to seek more knowledge on my own  2.  Curiosity about Universalist ideas

SeekerRuth

I have read pretty much all of his site.  I also used to be a member on his board, but was banned.  They really do exalt him there.

I do agree with most of what he teaches.  I could do without the sarcasm all of the time, however.  Don't disagree with him, whatever you do. :msealed:

I like his ex-partner, Mike Vinson.  His teaching is less abrasive. 

I do agree with Ray that when you die, you are dead.  The body returns to the dust of the earth, the soul dies and the spirit returns to the father.  You know nothing again until you are resurrected.  JMO

Quote from: squint on August 19, 2007, 06:41:45 PM
That type of belief is just another throwback to the eternal torture of "unbelieving mankind" except with a TEMPORAL SPIN put upon the position. 

Were atonement, forgiveness, and reconciliation all that the Father were after, then I might agree with the "death and glory" brand of UR, but the Father's got much deeper goals than that, including salvaging the character of not only Hitler but of the 6 million Jews that he killed who were cursing Hitler all of the way "to Hell" for what he was doing to their families, friends, spouses, neighbors, rabbis, torah scrolls, etc.

Our personalities are often forged and/or reclaimed in hard times, as though that were - in part - a necessary catalyst, and even to act as a mold for shaping out the molten grace of God as it slightly cools with the moisture of the tears of our gratitude for all of Father's mercies.

I'll go so far as to point out the difference between the UR message that was predominantly preached in the first 3 and a half centuries of Christianity and what was preached thereafter until Justinian condemned it in the 6th century in the Home Synod.  I'd of thoroughly condemned the UR of the 6th century as well, viz., this "everybody goes to heaven automatically AND IMMEDIATELY" inspite of their beliefs, lifestyle, and dying with the hardest heart against Christ.

No, I have to say with Origen, that the Lord is not ignorant of the means necessary to reclaim hardened sinners.

I just wouldn't have taken it as far as Justinian did with using unscriptural language to defend ET.

Quote from: sj on August 18, 2007, 10:25:21 PM
I was just wondering what you guys think of L Ray Smith.  I spent some time reading his stuff when the Tentmaker site was down, and found it very interesting and easy to follow (which is a necessity where I'm concerned!).  He can be a bit abrasive, though, and is not slow to attack anyone who he deems to be outside of the truth.  I was somewhat disappointed to see him make a reference to Gary Amirault in one of his e-mail replies - something about Gary saying that Hitler is now with God in heaven.  Anyway, it was quite derogatory and it left a sour taste in my mouth.

It would be interesting to know what others think. 

Sue

Hi Sue.
I'm up to speed with all that Ray Smith has written on...hes easy reading.. and like yourself i was a member for quite a while.

Ray Smith is Ray Smith ..He states clearly what and why he believes  and invites those who oppose him to contact him...by the way I'm not a supporter ,....

His forum has changed somewhat over the years , but its still heavily moderated , I know the longer serving mods and Team well from my days there..and still remain in contact with a couple..althou we opt to see a few issues differently.

Ray  is an ex wwcg as is Dennis ..personally i found the heavy manner in which they deal with members who  may differ on a few issues very similar to my time in the WWCG....

The board is not there to FREELY discuss Topics which Ray has not written on or that which MAY seem to undermime that which he has....years back all posts were vetted before being posted.......THAT HAS NOW CHANGED but posts are soon deleted if they seem to contravine the author of the site.........

Many members left or were quietly banished some time back ....but throu division comes unity ..yet another  forum was raised from the fall out.........

Blessings
Taffy

I have really enjoyed reading Ray's work. However, He lost me with his twin towers crap. I really like his older material. Good stuff. He was a major factor of me coming to UR. Thank God he did not have that twin tower stuff back then or I would have never read his material. Still, I never agreed with it all, but you must admit he's got some good papers! I would say the same for Mike Vinson at http://www.iswasandwillbe.com/

I think something happened to them both when they got popular and split. They seemed to feel the need to keep putting out material that was greater and better than before. Instead they got wierd. Really wierd. I'm so glad that Gary is not on the forum as a controller of the moderators. I would hate to see that happen here. I think it's better to promote an idea than to try and become a symbol of that idea.

Paul

Quote from: Pierac on August 20, 2007, 04:43:16 AM

I think something happened to them both when they got popular and split.

God, save us all from the trap of popularity! I've dodged several (i.e., quite a few) "opportunities" this year because they would have been the fast track to the very thing that you were talking about, and then all of the carnal pressures of "one-ups-manship" if God's not the One Who brought the exaltation.  I'm not 100% sure that "my message," "my perspective," "my Gospel," or "what the beep ever" is even fully formulated yet.  I know more than I can often say or write.  I've always felt it was better that until the ability to really share was actually granted by the Holy Spirit that it was always just best to try to shut up, sit down, and let others whom the Lord has already prepared do all of the talking.

I have much respect for both L.Ray and Mike Vinson.  I have learned so much from both. I have had much correspondence with Mike personally and he has been a great help. A very kind man.  I agree L Ray is a little rough around the edges, but anyone would be reading some of the nasty and foolish emails he gets. Jesus wasn't too nicey nicey with the Pharisees. Rather sarcastic. Niceness isn't a fruit of the Spirit.

I spend more time at Mike's site. Hope this helps.

 :offtopic:   I don't mean to hijack this thread, but Martin, I notice that you have allcreatures.org in your signature.  I am not a vegetarian but I have read some of Dr. Kaufman's articles on theology, violence and sacrifice.  Are you familiar with that aspect of the website?

Cindi....
Mercy Not Sacrifice (http://mercynotsacrifice.blogspot.com/)

Quote from: Cindi on August 20, 2007, 12:48:34 PM
:offtopic:   I don't mean to hijack this thread, but Martin, I notice that you have allcreatures.org in your signature.  I am not a vegetarian but I have read some of Dr. Kaufman's articles on theology, violence and sacrifice.  Are you familiar with that aspect of the website?

Cindi....
Mercy Not Sacrifice (http://mercynotsacrifice.blogspot.com/)

Hi Cindi,

I'm not sure which part of the website that you're talking about.  It's kind of a big website.  Might take me a while to find what you were talking about.  If there's any blatant ET, it hasn't stopped my writings and the writings of other blatant Universalists from being posted on the site.  I'm at the Animal Gospel site that they host and Bernie Coombs, from Australia, is at the All Creatures Do Go To Heaven website and his site with them gets into the salvation of Satan and other things that I haven't even touched on my site with them.

Martin

QuoteHi Cindi,

I'm not sure which part of the website that you're talking about.  It's kind of a big website.  Might take me a while to find what you were talking about.  If there's any blatant ET, it hasn't stopped my writings and the writings of other blatant Universalists from being posted on the site.  I'm at the Animal Gospel site that they host and Bernie Coombs, from Australia, is at the All Creatures Do Go To Heaven website and his site with them gets into the salvation of Satan and other things that I haven't even touched on my site with them.

Martin

Yes....I should have been a bit more specific....sorry.  I came across the allcreatures.org site via an article by Steven Kaufman who is associated with the site.  The article is called "The Problem of Human Violence" and is a rather long discussion of his view of scripture as seen through the lens of Rene' Girard's theory of mimesis and scapegoating.  I think it was sent out as a weekly devotional kind of thing and his plans are to actually put it in the form of a book.  From what I have read in his writings and the writings (which he says are his opinions and not necessarily those of the all creatures website) and of a few others on the website they do not see the atonement as substitutionary and do not believe that the requirement for blood sacrifice originated with God but is rather a perversion of man.  If you are interested I can find the links to the writings I am referring to. 

Cindi.....

Mercy Not Sacrifice (http://mercynotsacrifice.blogspot.com/) 

Quote from: Cindi on August 21, 2007, 12:22:11 AM
Yes....I should have been a bit more specific....sorry.  I came across the allcreatures.org site via an article by Steven Kaufman who is associated with the site.....From what I have read in his writings and the writings (which he says are his opinions and not necessarily those of the all creatures website) and of a few others on the website they do not see the atonement as substitutionary and do not believe that the requirement for blood sacrifice originated with God but is rather a perversion of man.....

Cindi.....

Mercy Not Sacrifice (http://mercynotsacrifice.blogspot.com/) 

Hi Cindi,

From what you're telling me, looks like we've got some gnostics on the site as well, or whatever.  Very interesting.  I did not know that.  Quite a few early Church Father quotes that could feed that kind of thinking, such as Clement of Alexandria believing that the book of Leviticus was written by fallen angels.  Means I've sure as beep been too tame on the website with my stuff.  I was coming in there all conciliatory as though I could bridge the gulf between conservative theology and Universalism via the Animal Gospel presentation of mine that I knew had blown their minds.  Sounds like I had more permission to sick 'em than I had any idea, if we're even allowing what sounds like a bunch of the modern Essene extremities from the Northwest U.S., Egypt, and elsewhere to creep onto the website.

Kinda means the allcreatures.org website's quite a bit more interesting than I even had any idea of.  Not saying I agree with the nonsense that you brought up.  Just means that as soon as word gets out about the site, my stuff that's on there is fixing to get SLAMMED with internet traffic.

I'm kinda wondering if the people behind allcreatures.org are deliberately allowing a certain amount of that with the calculated purpose of drawing internet traffic to the better stuff on the site.

QuoteMartin wrote:  I'm not 100% sure that "my message," "my perspective," "my Gospel," or "what the beep ever" is even fully formulated yet.  I know more than I can often say or write.

I don't think we will ever leave this condition. It's part of our growth. Just when you think you have it all. God shows you different. Just like U.R. happened to me last year.

As for you comment:

QuoteI know more than I can often say

Where do you even start. Before you can complete a sentence, you get bombarded with the "what abouts!"  What about Hell, What about this, what about that. Usually within one minute you are labeled in their mind. They see your mouth moving but hear nothing, as they walk you to the exit door of their heart. (or building)

Quote from: Pierac on August 21, 2007, 06:02:22 PM

QuoteMartin wrote:  I'm not 100% sure that "my message," "my perspective," "my Gospel," or "what the beep ever" is even fully formulated yet.  I know more than I can often say or write.

I don't think we will ever leave this condition. It's part of our growth. Just when you think you have it all. God shows you different. Just like U.R. happened to me last year.

Romans 8 talks about being conformed to the image of God's dear Son so that with a fully spiritual mind you're not only not subject to the law of sin and death, but you're actively setting Creation free from it's bondage to decay and escorting all of the Creation around you into the liberties of the Children of God.  Galatians 4:19 talks about having Christ actually formed in you.  Ephesians 3:14-21 talks about coming to the place of KNOWING the length, breadth, depth, and height of the love of Christ, thereby being filled with all of the fullness of God.  Philippians 3 says that Paul didn't count himself to have apprehended BUT ONE THING forgetting those things which were behind and reaching forth to those things which were ahead HE PRESSED for the mark of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.  Hebrews 5:12-14 talks about coming to a place of maturity in the Gospel where even your physical body is a slave of the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.  1John 4 says that we can come to the place of being confident in the day of persecution because AS He IS, so are we in this world, because perfected love has cast all fear out of our lives.  And you reach for this perfected love running it's full course in your life through 1John 2:5: keeping His Word, presumably the way Paul talked about in Colossians 3:12-17.  I do believe like Mark 4 says that the Word can come to harvest; the Word can become flesh in our flesh IN THIS LIFE.

I'm definitely LIGHTYEARS beyond where I was in the 90s.  Looking at the childhood, juvenile, and adulthood that John in 1John 2, Paul throughout his writings, and Peter indicated in a place or two, I'm probably creeping into a slight comfort zone in the juvenile area.  I'm far enough along to where I can look at a lot of believers and say "there's MORE than where you're at" EVEN with a bunch of UR folks.  But my growing pains and occaisional 15 to 17 year old attitude are grossly apparent a whole lot of the time.

 :2c:Here is my two cents,I learned a lot from L.Ray Smith.I don't think he knows it all,but has a lot right.I get the feeling he has been hurt.Lets just pray for him,and love him.Take the good leave the bad.crlnray

I don't think that there is such a thing as a Universalist whose got a serious bark and occaisional bite that hasn't been hurt and hurt badly by Christians or with the realization of how much fear that they NEEDLESSLY lived in for years over themselves and their family and other loved ones.  L. Ray is definitely in my prayers.

Quote from: martincisneros on August 21, 2007, 10:51:41 PM
I don't think that there is such a thing as a Universalist whose got a serious bark and occaisional bite that hasn't been hurt and hurt badly by Christians or with the realization of how much fear that they NEEDLESSLY lived in for years over themselves and their family and other loved ones.  L. Ray is definitely in my prayers.

Martin,
I think you have said it just right.  I think he has suffered...I've read the brutal written attacks against him.  I don't see how any human being can endure that without being hardened.  I will keep him in my prayers also.

-SeekerRuth

Yes, He's definitely been gifted! Like I said before, He was a MAJOR factor of me coming to UR. However, his latest work is not in tune with his earlier work.  :dunno:  I don't know what it means but his newer material is (blank)  :mshock: for me. I still love to watch his old videos.  :cyberworld:  Mike Vinson sent me a few last year! I know he can be harsh at times,  :spank: butt (pun intended) you gotta love it every now and then. He tells it like it is!   :talkangry:

Quote from: Pierac on August 22, 2007, 08:10:33 AM
Yes, He's definitely been gifted! Like I said before, He was a MAJOR factor of me coming to UR. However, his latest work is not in tune with his earlier work.  :dunno:  I don't know what it means but his newer material is (blank)  :mshock: for me. I still love to watch his old videos.  :cyberworld:  Mike Vinson sent me a few last year! I know he can be harsh at times,  :spank: butt (pun intended) you gotta love it every now and then. He tells it like it is!   :talkangry:

------------------------------------
I have been in close correspondence with Mike and another person at Ray's site. I have learned that Mike and Ray had a parting of ways unfortunately. If one wants to receive more info on this then you can pm me. I won't give you opinion but just state the facts as I know it so you can come to your own conclusions of what went down.

YOu are right about Ray's recent writings. He was right on in his earlier writings and I feel for him and others. The Christian life is very hard. Hard on the flesh. And there are times I feel like leaving it all because it is so hard to live. I know that it is Christ that is supposed to live in us and we are to die daily. BUt easier said than done. The path is a lonely path for me.

Having been kicked out of churches in the past and the most recent one I am not welcomed. Why ? Because I don't go along with the doctrines of Christendom. When aksed I speak out in love. When I am not asked I keep my mouth shut.

To make a long story short, a few ladies form the church expressed their dismay at tithing. How difficult it was for them to keep tithing up and having to sacrifice by not getting needed medicine etc. One lady who came down ill has attended church for many years. She couldn't work and needed help financially. The church didn't help her. So they had a get together, asked me in my home for my input. I gave it to them. How tithing was not biblical. How tithing was never about money in the OT even. I shared the many tithing scriptures that the pulpit throws on people to make them feel guilty. And I responded. Anyway I ended telling them it is up to them whether to tithe or not. I can't tell people what to do. Left it at that. They looked relieved and tested at my request things I had shared with them. Then their tithing came to a halt. God was not cursing them. They are all givers so they helped others and of course the lady who was turned down and needed help. One thing led to another and the pastor and heads found out. Their pocketbooks were hurt. Even though they collect a pretty decent salary and have all their expenses paid for. Someone told them I was teaching against the doctrines of the church. What resulted is that one lady was kicked out because she didn't tithe and she held an executive position and was on the worship team. Her mom didn't go anymore after me sharing with her the false doctrines of the church such as eternal hell and that billions won't be saved in the end and etc. She siad to me that she just didn't fit in anymore. She was open and I let her know. So now I am out which is okay but it still hurts.  I was there for about a year on and off. So I praise God that He used me in bringing truths to about 4 people. We all meet at her home on a weekly basis now.

Sorry to get off of the subject. But there was a price to pay. Ones I thought were my friends and family members have dissed me. I have been called a troublemaker and a divisive person. My wife accuses me of stuffing these truths down people's throats and my step daughter thinks ill of me. My wife and daughter has been a churchgoer for her whole life. They were going when I didn't go most of the time. And I know truth is hard to face. That you are the church. One doesn't go to church. And God doesn't dwell in man made temples or buildings. BUt many seem to be obligated to go and sit under a pastor and receive the many false teachings. I know. I did it for years. And I found God and His truth outside of the church building. I got fed up. And God dragged me. It was a long process.
BUt is something to have taken so many courses and sat under a few theologians who are supposed to know. Then you find out by the Holy Spirit that most don't have a clue. They look at Scripture with carnal eyes. With intellect. With man's reasoning. And it is clear that only God can give one understanding. Jesus was asked why He spoke in parables. And you know His answer. IT was for them to receive and not the multitude. It is clear that the existence of many thousands of denominations shows the world that something ain't right.

Anyway thanks for letting me express myself here. I was going to erase but I used up so much space I will let it fly.

So in reference to Ray and Mike I can understand. Rays is not doing well physically. He has many ailments and is diabetic and has a some serious illnesses. Mike is a simple very knowledgeable one in Christ and is very humble. I have been led astray many times. But God has brought me back and put me on the straight and narrow. But it isn't easy. Especially when you have your family against you and loss of friends. BUt I gained a few so praise GOd. Salvation is a process.

L Ray Smith makes the same fundamental mistakes as the hellfire preachers - he doesn't comprehend that the WORD is understood by the spirit and not the letter. If there is no literal hell then there is no literal heaven either. That is a barrier that must be unveiled when Christ appears within.

The transition from reading the letter and understanding the spirit is the fall of Babylon and all the religious idols with it. Everyone is in Babylon until God releases you.

Steve  :bigGrin:
Brother in Christ

willieH: Hi Steve... :hithere: wELcoMe to TM  :welcome:

I believe you are quite incorrect in your observance of L. Ray Smith... Have you read much of his writings?  It appears you haven't...   :mnah:

Quote from: Steve on August 25, 2007, 04:55:02 AM
L Ray Smith makes the same fundamental mistakes as the hellfire preachers - he doesn't comprehend that the WORD is understood by the spirit and not the letter. If there is no literal hell then there is no literal heaven either. That is a barrier that must be unveiled when Christ appears within.

There is a difference between the two... HELL is a mistranslated word... Heaven is the abode (not geographically speaking) of GOD...

For Scriptural quotations of CHRIST, stated that YHVH (and His  ANGELS and CHRIST) ARE, IN HEAVEN

Mt 6:9 / 7:21 / 10:32 / 18:19 [God]...
Mk 11:25 [God]/ 13:32 [angels]...
Lk 11:2 [God]...
John 6:33 [Christ])

So the Apostles ALL named Heaven to be a entity (not physical or geographical) in which GOD, Angels, and CHRIST ...ARE...

That many percieve Heaven in Literal, Physical terms is an error of misunderstanding... The "Heaven" in which GOD ...IS... happens to BE, is the realm of SPIRIT... and it is within THE SPIRIT which has no "geographical" or "physical" properties, that GOD, His angels, and His Son ...dwell  :nod:

GOD is SPIRIT and GOD is LOVE, ...The realm of SPIRIT and LOVE, cannot be determined by Physical or Geographical means, such as... You cannot give someone 3 "pounds" of LOVE... Nor can you tell them a geographical place they might find and obtain, that 3 "pounds" of LOVE...  :pointlaugh:

Hell on the other hand, is a FEAR doctrine created by MEN, which portrays the "place" of that FEAR, ...and proposes it to be unending torture chamber...

QuoteThe transition from reading the letter and understanding the spirit is the fall of Babylon and all the religious idols with it. Everyone is in Babylon until God releases you.

Steve  :bigGrin:
Brother in Christ

What makes you think that YOU have had this release, and that L. Ray has NOT?  :dontknow:

PS... I do not believe L. Ray Smith percieves Heaven in Physical, Literal or Geographical Terms...  :mnah:

Peace...  :thumbsup:

In  ...willieH  :boogie:

Sorry to say Steve but thou art wrong concerning Ray. No where does he say that there is a literal heaven. I have read most of his writings and heard his audio teachings. I don't think you have. Or if you have you don't have your spiritual glasses on. He has said repeatedly that Jesus said " the words I speak to you are spirit."  :Sparkletooth:

QUOTE WILLIE H

PS... I do not believe L. Ray Smith perceives Heaven in Physical, Literal or Geographical Terms...
your absolutely Right Willie ...........he doesn't.

Blessings Taffy

In 2004 I did a google search on tithing and found Ray's articles. I was quite impressed and read all his articles except for the LOF series. In 2005 I read the LOF series in 4 months and believe in UR. PTL!!! Anyway, I found out Ray had a forum and joined. I really enjoyed it there and agreed with everything Ray taught. But, I started to see some dark clouds. Anyone who disagreed with Ray more than a few times was banned for one reason or another. Sometimes a whole group of people would disagree and they would be banned. Then, the website would crash and all the old posts were gone. This happened more than once.

In 2006 Mike and Ray split up over a really silly disagreement.Ray wasn't going to tell forum members about it, but, someone with sharp eyes noticed that Ray and Mike and removed their website addresses from each others sites. Then the sutff hit the fan and we many of us saw there was something terribly wrong. I corresponded with many people and found out what had happened and left Ray's site and went to Mike's. Mike is much mellowere than Ray, but the it was still evident that Mike had a following similar to Ray's. I also read that Ray thought most of the people on his forum were children who needed guidance. I have no problem with being a child (of God), but, not of man.

God has broken me of making man an idol. I am always wary of agreeing 100% with any mans teachings. It is usually because I haven't studied it out enough that I agree 100%. Now, I keep my spiritual eyes open and I say I don't know a lot. I have been wrong too many times to say I can't ever be wrong again. So, I will pray for Ray that he will be humbled and brought low so he can be a worthy vessel for God's use. He truly has a gift of explaining the LOF in a way others can understand. I still recommend it to those searching out UR. It can be a long and hard read, but the information is there for those searching. Sometimes I just recommend one paper of the series if someone is interested in a subject he has written about. Ray's feet are made of clay and he is an earth man as we all are. These are the kind of flawed vessels God uses for his glory.

Quote from: mrsnacks on August 25, 2007, 12:00:39 PM
Sorry to say Steve but thou art wrong concerning Ray. No where does he say that there is a literal heaven. I have read most of his writings and heard his audio teachings. I don't think you have. Or if you have you don't have your spiritual glasses on. He has said repeatedly that Jesus said " the words I speak to you are spirit."  :Sparkletooth:

Yes, Ray has said that, but does he really mean it? Over a year ago many threads were erased because people were seeing spiritual things that Ray hadn't seen. I saw it myself so I know it's true. Ray himself said that we couldn't take everything in the Bible spiritually. I knew then he was speaking with a forked tongue. Is it only true when Ray sees it? Hasn't God built up a body and we are all parts of it? How can anyone have all truth all the time? Such a concept scares the heck out of me.

I found Ray's articles very informative.  And I'm still a member of the BT forum.  Some have been banned by the mods due, not so much to disagreeing with Ray (which they emphasize taking up with Ray directly).  But rather by those who won't bother to read Ray's papers.  I personally DON'T exalt Ray, but God.  While I don't agree with all that Ray has written, I do believe that some come to his site (as well as this one ) for a season.  Then one MUST follow where the Spirit Of The Lord lead them

CHes

This opens up a whole new subject. You acknowledged that Ray said it but you question if he means what he says. I think so at the time he said it. There are so many things I have said and quoting the Scriptures and believe that Jesus said this or that. Jesus asked those " why call me Lord yet you don't do what I say." 

I do know that what some of you have said is correct. Ray isn't a visitor of the forum. He is not the moderator. The forum is moderated by his supporters. Yes they shut you down. I have been shut down there and here by the way quite a few times. With every forum they have their rules. I got kicked out of a Christian forum for my orthodox preterist views on eschatology years back. And BT is not a forum where there is debate really. Especially not against Ray's teachings. I just accept that. I have been a part of forums where it has gotten out of hand. And I think BT is careful that it doesn't happen there.

I have gotten a lot of that site and have moved on to Mike Vinson's site. And it is part of the process. The bottom line with everything is that they will know we are His disciples by our fruit. Not by our knowledge or even by our gifts.

Guys

Just another  :2c:

While I appreciate what L.Ray does, he remains a man like all of us that have faults.  When we are enlightened to the truth and see the lie exposed, the easy thing to to fall victim of is exchanging that to following or putting someone on a pedestal.

His papers are good but like any revelation we share, it should be open to opinions by others, what else is theology but an opinion.

I do not believe even people used by God such as Preston Eby are to be revered as something special, we are all special in His eyes.

Coming out of the fundalism teachings, many experience hurt. In their new found enlightenment and are rejected for their views or as angry at the time wasted in the formal church system.  Now think about it realistically, when did you get enlightened?  When you started researching deeper and decided to find the truth for yourself.  Many could not equate a God of Love = and Unmerciful God yet we stayed and listened to the preacher, only when we dusted off our bibles and really got into the word, did the revelation continue.

Some of L.Ray's stuff is really heavy and when his revelation becomes your prime source, or anyone else for that matter, then we miss the boat totally.  Sometimes a teaching/paper is to be a seed we must allow the Holy Spirit to germinate and mature or else it becomes another thus sayeth the man (_________) instead of thus sayeth the Lord.

We as those believing in the salvation of all look to gain acceptance and it is our natural instinct to defend a brother that is slandered which is the honorable thing to do.  We stand together as like minded people and no different to fundamentalists in the ET camp who also stand together.  We need merely show the world, there is hope beyond the hell of the church.

In all we still preach Jesus is the saviour of all mankind which is the GOOD NEWS.  I raise my hat to those that persist, in spite of being slandered a heretic or non-believer and many other insults, in revealing the Love of God to the world.

There are many seekers of the truth, and on the Internet there is soooo much and if the source remains merely this medium and God is not part of the equation, confusion abounds.

Blessings

It doesn't matter what kind of emails L Ray gets, Jesus was ONLY nasty to the pharisee. Jesus never treated those with questions, of which L Ray shows contempt towards.

I would also take all his writings with a grain of salt, because I do not find much spirit in his letters, and his knowledge has been proved soundly to have many fallacies because of it. He is just a man, and I find he has as much knowledge as anyone of us has, and like anyone of us, has his opinions and not all our opinions are true.

There are many people who want to cling on to some man, and when they left their churches, some found L Ray, and just like they did with their teachers in ET, they have idolized teachers in UR. They have not changed, they just changed their doctrine concerning eternal judgment.

Quote from: craigIt doesn't matter what kind of emails L Ray gets, Jesus was ONLY nasty to the pharisee. Jesus never treated those with questions, of which L Ray shows contempt towards.   

Welcome back Bro..

good to see ya :icon_flower:
If we use the examples shown to us ( ie as in the pharisee)..and Christ ,for sure did this for reason, then hopefully we dont get lost and begin to FORM our own opinion.

Blessings
Taffy

Another thing that bothered me about Ray was the fact that he emphatically stated that noone had ever proven him wrong in his writings. At first I believed him, but then I thought maybe Ray doesn't publish the letters that show another side to his teaching. Ray does spend a lot of time on his papers, but he can make mistakes just like anyone else can.

I used to enjoy his e-mail answers because he chewed people up and spit them out. But, now I realize, many of the e-mailers hadn't heard the things Ray was teaching. They really thought they were defending truth. His caustic, arrogant, know it all attitude was more a detriment to leading people to the truth. He also said he was only doing what Jesus did. What Ray forgets is that Jesus knew men's hearts, souls, and minds. Ray doesn't. Ray can only speculate why someone does what he does. Did Ray ever turn the other cheek when he was told he was wrong? Not that I know, he didn't.

God forced me to examine my heart a little over a year ago and I found I had made Ray an idol. His LOF series brought me out of ET. But, Ray was simply an instument God used to show me the truth, Ray wasn't the truth itself. I believe we are all precious and loved by God equally. god is no respector of persons.

I will admit, Ray can come off as being extremely rude or comedic.  But he definitely tells it like it is.  He does not water down the bible to conform to the popuar Christian Creed, he preaches exactly as the bible speaks, and where it speaks about Universal Salvation, he tells it like it is, an absolute bible teaching, not some liberal fantasy created by a bunch of lukewarm Christians to feel good and keep people in the pews.  FALSE!  But just simply pointing out the flaws of the modern Churches cannot be exposed by being politically correct about it.  "Is there a possibility that your theology of only a few being saved is flawed?", NO Ray tells them exactly where in the bible it ways that their theology is flawed.  Those Fundamentalist Churches and other modern Churches are only making sermons about long rants about how everyones going to hell if they dont embrace their dogma or lifestyle. 

God forced me to examine my heart a little over a year ago and I found I had made Ray an idol. His LOF series brought me out of ET. But, Ray was simply an instument God used to show me the truth, Ray wasn't the truth itself. I believe we are all precious and loved by God equally. god is no respector of persons.



Exactly, I never made him as an idol but on his message board many did.
I deleted my account and now read his papers, knowing he is human and can make mistakes too.

I like his work. I  believed one way on certain thing, was agast that he could say that what I believed was wrong or in error, but then I read is paper on it and found out that that is what the Word says.  I have not disputed him for sometime now. He is in poor health and needs the prayers of the saints.

There seems to be a lot of hostility towards Ray Smith.  But thats what happens when someone boldly teaches bible truths that Churches do not even teach, and they can be completely backed up by scripture and reason.  It threatens the bible thumpers claims in Everlasting punishment.  But at least people are exposing that danmable heresy. 

In this case anger is a compliment UC.
They are unable to debunk his stuff; so anger is a last resort.