Tentmaker Forum

I've got to say, I look forward to meeting him in the New Jerusalem. I mean, just look at his writings! So full of truths.


http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm


:iagree:

Ray was a feisty little fellow who didn't let criticism bother him.
He was never rude to anyone, but adamantly contended for the truth.
You can't read his work without chuckling.
He spit out truth with no regrets.
I regret that I never spoke to him through email and commended him for his work.

You guys are talking like he died. I hadn't heard that. I know there's some vids of him on YouTube. His was some of the first stuff I read online about universal reconciliation. I e-mailed him a few times. He didn't hesitate to tell it like it is when somebody came up with some distorted doctrine.

L. Ray Smith was seriously ill for the last couple years of his life. He died May 24th 2012. He was right about a lot of things which churchianity disagreed with (Mostly Hell) and was wrong on some things like all of us are. Some ET churches, pastors, and websites are gloating that he will be burning in hell for his heresies, but we know the last (in the worlds eyes)shall be first, and the first (in the worlds eyes)shall be last. Like Martin Zender and Gary Amirault he wasn't afraid to speak the truth. Unlike the others, he sometimes had trouble speaking it in love, which further incensed the status quo.

Quote from: ded2daworld on May 24, 2013, 01:26:53 PM
L. Ray Smith was seriously ill for the last couple years of his life. He died May 24th 2012. He was right about a lot of things which churchianity disagreed with (Mostly Hell) and was wrong on some things like all of us are. Some ET churches, pastors, and websites are gloating that he will be burning in hell for his heresies, but we know the last (in the worlds eyes)shall be first, and the first (in the worlds eyes)shall be last. Like Martin Zender and Gary Amirault he wasn't afraid to speak the truth. Unlike the others, he sometimes had trouble speaking it in love, which further incensed the status quo.

Yeah, I knew he had prostate cancer, but I didn't know he died. I guess that's because I quit going to his site partly because of what you said about him having a hard time speaking the truth in love. Thanks for the info.

Quote from: TomH on May 24, 2013, 01:48:47 PM

Quote from: ded2daworld on May 24, 2013, 01:26:53 PM
L. Ray Smith was seriously ill for the last couple years of his life. He died May 24th 2012. He was right about a lot of things which churchianity disagreed with (Mostly Hell) and was wrong on some things like all of us are. Some ET churches, pastors, and websites are gloating that he will be burning in hell for his heresies, but we know the last (in the worlds eyes)shall be first, and the first (in the worlds eyes)shall be last. Like Martin Zender and Gary Amirault he wasn't afraid to speak the truth. Unlike the others, he sometimes had trouble speaking it in love, which further incensed the status quo.

Yeah, I knew he had prostate cancer, but I didn't know he died. I guess that's because I quit going to his site because of what you said about him having a hard time speaking the truth in love. Thanks for the info.

I checked out L. Ray Smith a while back and like both of you have confirmed I had to move away from him because speaking the truth in love has become more important. knowing it myself and being able to convey the truth in love is far more rewarding than hurting people even if you are speaking the truth. I still get caught up in heated debates on truth vs church dogma. As I have said before until I learn humility it is best if I can keep my thoughts/knowledge of the truth fresh/renewed daily and share only to those who are seeking the truth. Many professing "Christians" are not seeking the truth and resist hearing it. People I love dearly believe that I am lost and going to the place of fire and brimstone for all eternity because I tried to open their eyes and God had not called them yet. Until they are called they are not ready yet. God is the only one who has the ointment for the eyes of the unseeing/blind. Peace brothers and sisters.

In Christ,
DuWayne

As for L Ray Smith having spoken the truth in love, consider this:

I once saw where he addressed this accusation.  He explained that it was an act of love on his part to be straight forward and blunt to get people's attention.  It cost him dearly to take the stand against church heresy and boldly speak truth.  He loved people and wanted them to know the truth.  If he had shied away from opposition, then how much would he have accomplished?  He was indeed blunt and to the point, and often came across as rude toward his adversaries.  That was not his intention.  His bluntness and straightforwardness were very much intentional in order to reach people because of his love for them and God.  I would never say that he did not speak the truth in love.


Consider how Jesus sometimes addressed his adversaries:

Speaking to the Pharisees he said:
John 8:44 [ESV]
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.  (I am quite sure that folks would accuse him of not speaking the truth in love here.)

Matthew 21:12-13 [ESV]
¹² And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all who sold and bought in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money-changers and the seats of those who sold pigeons. ¹³ He said to them, "It is written, 'My house shall be called a house of prayer,' but you make it a den of robbers."  (Let me put it this way: If I had done anything of that sort growing up, my mom would have spanked me good for behaving in this manner! :laugh:)

Quote from: jbertonbounds on May 24, 2013, 05:08:16 PM
As for L Ray Smith having spoken the truth in love, consider this:

I once saw where he addressed this accusation.  He explained that it was an act of love on his part to be straight forward and blunt to get people's attention.  It cost him dearly to take the stand against church heresy and boldly speak truth.  He loved people and wanted them to know the truth.  If he had shied away from opposition, then how much would he have accomplished?  He was indeed blunt and to the point, and often came across as rude toward his adversaries.  That was not his intention.  His bluntness and straightforwardness were very much intentional in order to reach people because of his love for them and God.  I would never say that he did not speak the truth in love.

Your two verses show that Christ harshly rebuked those who treated His father with disrespect and rightfully so. Christ was full of the Holy Spirit but L. Ray like the rest of us are not yet full. We have some of the Holy Spirit but not in full until we are all glorified. How do we know who to rebuke or who is in line with the Christ?

Matthew 28

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

This verse says to teach all nations. How can you teach anyone who the Father has not drawn? IMO we all need to wait on God until He draws (drags) the individual to Himself and then share openly the truth of the glorious gospel of universal reconciliation. The only people Christ healed were people who had faith not the ones who lacked faith. Except possibly the soldier who's ear was cut off by Peter and was restored by the Christ.

Likewise:
Matthew 7
7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Quote from: jbertonbounds on May 24, 2013, 05:08:16 PM
As for L Ray Smith having spoken the truth in love, consider this:

I once saw where he addressed this accusation.  He explained that it was an act of love on his part to be straight forward and blunt to get people's attention.  It cost him dearly to take the stand against church heresy and boldly speak truth.  He loved people and wanted them to know the truth.  If he had shied away from opposition, then how much would he have accomplished?  He was indeed blunt and to the point, and often came across as rude toward his adversaries.  That was not his intention.  His bluntness and straightforwardness were very much intentional in order to reach people because of his love for them and God.  I would never say that he did not speak the truth in love.


Consider how Jesus sometimes addressed his adversaries:

Speaking to the Pharisees he said:
John 8:44 [ESV]
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.  (I am quite sure that folks would accuse him of not speaking the truth in love here.)

Matthew 21:12-13 [ESV]
¹² And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all who sold and bought in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money-changers and the seats of those who sold pigeons. ¹³ He said to them, "It is written, 'My house shall be called a house of prayer,' but you make it a den of robbers."  (Let me put it this way: If I had done anything of that sort growing up, my mom would have spanked me good for behaving in this manner! :laugh:)

I agree that Christ rebuked his adversaries which usually meant the Pharisees, and I also believe our brother L. Ray Smith spoke the truth in love. It's just that his style tended to put some folks off. When I first became aware of universal reconciliation by mysteriously getting bounced from a die hard King James site to another site with information about universal reconciliation, L. Ray Smith's site was one of the first I visited, and I read everything on his site. I've dealt with folks in life who seem to come across the same way but who also have good intentions. I don't doubt L. Ray Smith loved God and saw himself as defending the truth in the word of God. I'm thankful for the information I read on his site. I still get amused though sometimes when brothers come across as a little harsh. I think it offends some folks just because they maybe didn't realize their error in interpreting some scripture, and they let their pride get in the way of correction. They also would probably prefer to be corrected in a mellower manner, but that wasn't his style. God bless him anyway for defending the word of God.

Perhaps God called Ray to be straightforward.  Perhaps that bluntness was a trait God gave him for that purpose.  Perhaps he did exactly what God wanted him to do.  We cannot rightly judge him for the way he dealt with his adversaries.  It could be argued (incorrectly, of course) that Jesus' actions in clearing the temple might have gotten in the way of some of them repenting, and may have offended some people.  I do know for sure that I try to be level-headed, polite, and gentle when I speak out about truth, but a number of people have been quite offended at times.  We ought to be careful how we deal with others, because, as Fitter said, we are not yet complete.  We must use our best judgement, guided by the Holy Spirit, and deal with people prudently.  I'm just saying that our dealings with others may come across harsh at times (like in the clearing of the temple), even when we are doing what God has led us to do.  No one but the Father can judge whether we are doing it right.
:2c: :2c: (inflation)

Quote from: jbertonbounds on May 24, 2013, 07:02:20 PM
Perhaps God called Ray to be straightforward.  Perhaps that bluntness was a trait God gave him for that purpose.  Perhaps he did exactly what God wanted him to do.  We cannot rightly judge him for the way he dealt with his adversaries.  It could be argued (incorrectly, of course) that Jesus' actions in clearing the temple might have gotten in the way of some of them repenting, and may have offended some people.  I do know for sure that I try to be level-headed, polite, and gentle when I speak out about truth, but a number of people have been quite offended at times.  We ought to be careful how we deal with others, because, as Fitter said, we are not yet complete.  We must use our best judgement, guided by the Holy Spirit, and deal with people prudently.  I'm just saying that our dealings with others may come across harsh at times (like in the clearing of the temple), even when we are doing what God has led us to do.  No one but the Father can judge whether we are doing it right.
:2c: :2c: (inflation)

I agree, brother. We all have different temperaments I think determined partly by our life experiences. We don't always know what causes a person to react the way they do to some things, and it just might be inspiration by God. I think we've all offended people even if it was unintentionally, and nobody has the right to judge a brother. We are told to love each other. I was thinking about how some folks are offended by my brother Martin Zender even though he has a different style than L. Ray Smith. I said in another post here somewhere about Martin that folks need to get over being offended by his style and listen to what he has to say because he speaks the truth about scripture. I understand why folks get offended at both of those brothers, but we have to realize we're all imperfect messengers, and try not to let personality incompatibilities prevent us from receiving the message. 

"For the entire law is fulfilled in one word, in this: 'You shall love your associate as yourself.'" (Galatians 5:14)

I have read his site before, and I enjoy how blunt he is. I was curious reading this thread so I decided to look up more info on him, and this demonic blog came up talking about how he is going to suffer for eternity. Absolutely sickening.

http://pastorshinchan.blogspot.com/2012/06/l-ray-smith-is-dead-confirmed-by-bible.html

Warhawk,

I clicked on the link and I was appalled at what the "pastor" had to say about him. Perfect example of how blind the world is. They act like they have exposed a fraud when in reality they are the ones living in a fraudulent fake dream world. L. Ray has a style that appeals to a certain crow which I do not claim to be part of. But I will say that I have watched a few of his videos and read some of his material and concluded that I would call him my brother in this life. We will all be brothers and sisters some day and that is the most glorious idea ever!!!! :banana:

PS We are living proof of God's idea that we become the many brothers and sisters of his first Son the Christ. Yeshua 

Quote from: Warhawk17 on May 25, 2013, 07:14:13 AM
I have read his site before, and I enjoy how blunt he is. I was curious reading this thread so I decided to look up more info on him, and this demonic blog came up talking about how he is going to suffer for eternity. Absolutely sickening.

http://pastorshinchan.blogspot.com/2012/06/l-ray-smith-is-dead-confirmed-by-bible.html

I enjoyed his straightforwardness and bluntness too.

And yes, that kind of judging of him by his adversaries is sickening indeed!

I spent some time today reading more of the emails he has posted on his site and also watched his critique on Bill Wiese's 23 Minutes in Hell. I laughed out loud many times. He tore apart that fraud so well, and you could tell he was having fun doing it too. After reading those emails, I have to say he can be a little rude, but so what, Jesus was rude sometimes too when he was really making a point. Sometimes in order to make a point you need to have that bluntness that borders on rudeness.

Quote from: Warhawk17 on May 26, 2013, 09:51:20 AM
I spent some time today reading more of the emails he has posted on his site and also watched his critique on Bill Wiese's 23 Minutes in Hell. I laughed out loud many times. He tore apart that fraud so well, and you could tell he was having fun doing it too. After reading those emails, I have to say he can be a little rude, but so what, Jesus was rude sometimes too when he was really making a point. Sometimes in order to make a point you need to have that bluntness that borders on rudeness.

Tell it, brother!
LIKE

Quote from: Warhawk17 on May 25, 2013, 07:14:13 AM
I have read his site before, and I enjoy how blunt he is. I was curious reading this thread so I decided to look up more info on him, and this demonic blog came up talking about how he is going to suffer for eternity. Absolutely sickening.

http://pastorshinchan.blogspot.com/2012/06/l-ray-smith-is-dead-confirmed-by-bible.html

OK, I went back and read over this so-called pastor Shin Chan's judgmental article.  Yes, absolutely sickening.  His logic was poor, and his statements careless at best.  At one point, he said, "We all claim that we repented but we are still in our sins."  Well that includes himself, so it seems to me that he is condemning himself by his own doctrine.  Where do they come from?! :eek:

Quote from: Warhawk17 on May 26, 2013, 09:51:20 AM
I spent some time today reading more of the emails he has posted on his site and also watched his critique on Bill Wiese's 23 Minutes in Hell. I laughed out loud many times. He tore apart that fraud so well, and you could tell he was having fun doing it too. After reading those emails, I have to say he can be a little rude, but so what, Jesus was rude sometimes too when he was really making a point. Sometimes in order to make a point you need to have that bluntness that borders on rudeness.

Is this your final answer? Jesus was rude sometimes. Really I didn't find that in my Hebrew Roots bible is that actually in the King James version? You will have to excuse me I have forgotten most of what is in good ole James and his bunch of "translators"version of the Word of God.

Quote from: mplsfitter539 on May 26, 2013, 08:45:55 PM

Quote from: Warhawk17 on May 26, 2013, 09:51:20 AM
I spent some time today reading more of the emails he has posted on his site and also watched his critique on Bill Wiese's 23 Minutes in Hell. I laughed out loud many times. He tore apart that fraud so well, and you could tell he was having fun doing it too. After reading those emails, I have to say he can be a little rude, but so what, Jesus was rude sometimes too when he was really making a point. Sometimes in order to make a point you need to have that bluntness that borders on rudeness.

Is this your final answer? Jesus was rude sometimes. Really I didn't find that in my Hebrew Roots bible is that actually in the King James version? You will have to excuse me I have forgotten most of what is in good ole James and his bunch of "translators"version of the Word of God.

Well, Jesus wasn't rude as we normally think of rude.  At times he was very much straightforward and blunt, telling it like it is!  Now that would have seemed rude to the recipients of it, but in reality He loved them, and none of his own actions were self-motivated, as I probably would be if I were rude to someone.

Jesus was not rude, he was only telling people what He wanted them to hear, not what they wanted to hear. Same goes for Ray.

Quote from: Eduard on May 26, 2013, 09:30:27 PM
Jesus was not rude, he was only telling people what He wanted them to hear, not what they wanted to hear. Same goes for Ray.

:iagree:

Yeah I guess rude wasn't the right word to use. It may seem rude to people who get offended easily, but he's just being straightforward. You need to be convincing if you want people to take you seriously.

Does anyone else here see the singularities between L. Ray and James Lloyd? James seems to have many things right but because his message is flawed by his snide remarks and his overall attitude. I am not saying that they are identical but I get the same feeling when I listen to either one of them.

Quote from: Warhawk17 on May 27, 2013, 03:06:17 AM
Yeah I guess rude wasn't the right word to use. It may seem rude to people who get offended easily, but he's just being straightforward. You need to be convincing if you want people to take you seriously.

I understood what you meant, so it wasn't my intention to correct you, but just to clarify for the sake of those who may not have taken you the way you intended. :thumbsup: You are absolutely right when you say that we need to be convincing if we want people to take us seriously. :thumbsup:

John if you really want to convince people do it through your actions. It takes time and patience to convince them with actions instead of words. My closest loved ones are watching every move I make to test me and see if I practice what I preach. When God calls them then they will understand but not until the call of God. I have been down the road of trying to persuade them with the truth of the gospel of reconciliation but they cling to their gospel of ET anyway. The progress that I have made is recently my mother admitted that I have changed for the better. I have a long way to go but the people closest to me are witnessing the change. What I am trying to say here is that we shouldn't be trying to sell UR to anyone. God must draw them first and then we can assist God by confirming to them the gospel of reconciliation. 

Quote from: mplsfitter539 on May 27, 2013, 05:44:50 PM
John if you really want to convince people do it through your actions. It takes time and patience to convince them with actions instead of words. My closest loved ones are watching every move I make to test me and see if I practice what I preach. When God calls them then they will understand but not until the call of God. I have been down the road of trying to persuade them with the truth of the gospel of reconciliation but they cling to their gospel of ET anyway. The progress that I have made is recently my mother admitted that I have changed for the better. I have a long way to go but the people closest to me are witnessing the change. What I am trying to say here is that we shouldn't be trying to sell UR to anyone. God must draw them first and then we can assist God by confirming to them the gospel of reconciliation.

:iagree:
Our job is to put the truth out there - like Jesus did.  Then move on.  No intense arguing, no heated debates,  no urgent persuasion techniques.  It's like planting seeds.  Thus the parable of the seed sower.

Indeed friend, seeds of Truth, and I believe that God has many seeds yet to plant but we cannot bear them now in like fashion as those persuaded deeply in other ways of thinking cannot bear too much of God's love at once.

I agree with what you guys are saying. I'll speak the truth in a situation that calls for it, but I won't go around my town preaching on the streets or handing out pamphlets to everyone I see. I also feel I am not ready to take that step in preaching it then having the pressure of everyone carefully studying me to see if I practice what I preach.

Because I'm going to be honest with you guys, but I am far from a saint. I still cuss, get angry about petty things, be overly competitive, argue with people, and have an immature sense of humor. I guess I struggle with the things most late teen guys struggle with. I don't drink and smoke though or hook up with girls on the  weekend. I believe in waiting until you're with that one special person. That doesn't mean I don't struggle with lust though. I used to watch a lot of porn, but thankfully God has taken that out of my life.

Sorry for my ramblings, but I believe in being open and real about myself. It makes me feel better too when I admit to some people that I have problems because denial isn't a very good place to be. But anyways, my point is people who preach the glorious Gospel will be judged harshly by Churchianity, and they monitor every move they make, and if they catch one slip up, they will be all over that. I don't think God is ready to throw me into that fire yet.

Quote from: Warhawk17 on May 28, 2013, 02:42:38 AM
I agree with what you guys are saying. I'll speak the truth in a situation that calls for it, but I won't go around my town preaching on the streets or handing out pamphlets to everyone I see. I also feel I am not ready to take that step in preaching it then having the pressure of everyone carefully studying me to see if I practice what I preach.

Because I'm going to be honest with you guys, but I am far from a saint. I still cuss, get angry about petty things, be overly competitive, argue with people, and have an immature sense of humor. I guess I struggle with the things most late teen guys struggle with. I don't drink and smoke though or hook up with girls on the  weekend. I believe in waiting until you're with that one special person. That doesn't mean I don't struggle with lust though. I used to watch a lot of porn, but thankfully God has taken that out of my life.

Sorry for my ramblings, but I believe in being open and real about myself. It makes me feel better too when I admit to some people that I have problems because denial isn't a very good place to be. But anyways, my point is people who preach the glorious Gospel will be judged harshly by Churchianity, and they monitor every move they make, and if they catch one slip up, they will be all over that. I don't think God is ready to throw me into that fire yet.

Yes, they will do exactly that.  :sigh: But you have to remember the scripture that says (in my own words): let those practice sin continue to practice sin, and those who follow the Christ continue to follow the Christ, and those who judge you continue to judge you.  God will even out all the rough places in the end.  Just follow the Spirit and he will guide you in your walk with the Christ.  Do not worry about what others think.  You will NEVER be able to walk a perfect walk, and you will never be out from under the scrutiny of others.  Just put out the truth and move on and let others continue to judge.  You will convince more people of the truth being a real, imperfect human being than by trying to put forth a positive image for the world to see.

My philosophy: If you cuss, it's just a word, not a sin.  If you like beer, it's just a beverage, not a sin.  If you smoke, it's just an unhealthy addiction, not a sin.  You like women, you were design to seek a mate, marry one and stay faithful to her, and love her with all you've got.  Be happy in Jesus.

Some here are saying that Mr. Smith is wrong on some things. Can you go into detail on what those things are?

Quote from: TomH on May 24, 2013, 04:20:03 AM
You guys are talking like he died. I hadn't heard that. I know there's some vids of him on YouTube. His was some of the first stuff I read online about universal reconciliation. I e-mailed him a few times. He didn't hesitate to tell it like it is when somebody came up with some distorted doctrine.

I have to check this guy out! I know I've heard the name.. I'm not up on any authors.. or anybody {when i get in the kingdom, i won't know anyone! :laughing7: }

Quote from: MusicLover123 on April 15, 2018, 11:57:05 PM
Some here are saying that Mr. Smith is wrong on some things. Can you go into detail on what those things are?

     :Chinscratch: Good question.. now I'm really curious!

Quote from: Eduard on May 14, 2013, 09:48:00 PM
I've got to say, I look forward to meeting him in the New Jerusalem. I mean, just look at his writings! So full of truths.


http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm


:iagree:

This is the original link.. A very long page! Looks like he's done his homework though so I'm planning to read it.. looks interesting.. :thumbsup: