I was searching the net this evening and found a really good video. You really need to watch the entire thing, because if you decide to only watch the 1st 1/2 you may not come to the conclusion that you should. The people in the video, even though they are not Christian, clearly know God better than the two people who were chosen to defend him!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-rKiGJrcNw&feature=PlayList&p=339C039DED8DFD8B&index=10 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-rKiGJrcNw&feature=PlayList&p=339C039DED8DFD8B&index=10)
Post your thoughts... :D
Wow, doesn't look too good for Cameron and Ray.....I can't believe they agreed to offer scientific evidence for the existance of God and their only ammunition was a painting. The two athiests were right that their God was a terrorist. :sigh:
I believe in a good God and in my opinion He is raising up beautiful people to speak against the lies of christianity from outside christiany. Personally I find that incredibly insinc with something Molly spoke about how she sees the sons of God manifesting. Its going to blow some minds when we see whom is being used to speak truth and whom is still speaking lies.
I find nothing wrong with a person waiting on God to reveal Himself to them and in the mean time living honestly and logically and standing against the lies of christianity. Makes me wonder if these folks are not doing more of Gods work then many of those that think they are doing Gods work.
loved it
kept
I agree with Gabe, Sarah and Kept and many of the arguments tendered forth by most atheists. Many unbelievers and ex-believers became so by actually studying the Bible and Christian History. Most Christian dogmas are very difficult to defend in any absolute sense. Approaches from the perspective of a Theist or Deist allow more latitude in deflecting atheistic arguments.
Seeing Dimly, John :HeartThrob:
Haven't we all taken the atheist's path, at least in part. We've rejected the god of christianity, the spiritual waterboarder...
Fortunately we've been saved from churchianity by Jesus!!!
Giz
:grin: good one Giz
kept
I don't know how I got so lucky but my earliest memories are of loving Jesus. I never even heard the word 'hell' in my church --protestant congregationalist. I grew up very secure in a loving God.
I just can't fathom all the people hurt by religion. I can't figure out how that happened.
The youngest children were taught this:
Jesus loves me, this I know
'cause the Bible tells me so
Little ones to him belong
They are weak, but he is strong.
Yes Jesus loves me
Yes Jesus loves me
Yes Jesus loves me
The Bible tells me so!
Didn't you guys sing songs like that as little children?
QuoteDidn't you guys sing songs like that as little children?
Absolutely....Along with 'I'll fly away'...some glad mornin when this life is oer I'll fly away...I'll fly away ol' glory...when I die halaluja bye and bye I'll fly away.
and 'Jesus on the main line', ... if you want salvation, tell Him what you want. Call im up, call im up, tell Him what you want, tell im what you want right now.
I'm being silly...I love singing those songs. Although I don't think I'll 'fly away' as many suppose, I think that song is so fun to sing. And I laugh everytime I think of Jesus on the mainline...I picture Eva Gabor on Green Acres climbing up the telephone pole.
QuoteApproaches from the perspective of a Theist or Deist allow more latitude in deflecting atheistic arguments.
I agree.
Jesus on the mainline? LOL
I don't even know what a mainline is now, much less when I was a little kid. :grin:
Is that a train?
Early telephone connections included entire neighborhoods. Rural was last to have private service to each cutomer. I can still remember when you could pick up the phone and hear the conversation of some neighbor with a friend they'd called, interrupt with a request that they'd hang up so you could make a call. You could point out to them that after all, they'd hogged the line for over an hour. Just pick up the phone. You don't even have to dial some outside number. Jesus is on the mainline here and now. (Sometimes I sing it with a more racy meaning in my head. I imagine I'm addicted to Jesus and I'm just now shooting up! Jesus on the mainline now!)
After watching Rational Response Squad roast Kirk Cameron I noticed they had 6,148 comment/responses. On youtube's intro page for Featured Videos I chose "Most Discussed." None of their 4 out of 12 (that was 2 out of 12 the third time) with even more views had more than 335 comments. What am I getting when I choose "Most Discussed?" What's going on? Can I access the videos that have the most "discussion" or do they mean something else than the most comments by that terminology?
Something that athiests do, which is also a common error of Christians: they mistake religion for God. Often, most of what they're against isn't even God. It's Institutional Christianity and the belief's and practices of the people who have intercourse with it. Various persons who're think they're against God in their minds, I've told them that the real God agrees with them. He's against religion more than they are.
---James
Hey Molly, I sing these songs too! Who wouldn't. The idea that some cosmic force or being created and cares about us, and even took our form and was willing to be tortured and killed to confirm God's Law of Love is compelling beyond words! But these songs point out the "goodness and light" aspects of Christianity and do not touch on its theologically complicated, dark and morally ambiguous aspects.
Atheists and agonistics attack these elements of institutionalize religion. They tend to target the "Big Three Abrahamic" faiths (Christianity, Judaism and Islam), especially fundamentalism which can lead to Religious Fascism. They argue that the existence of a personal God is completely unsustainable in any rational or scientific sense. Further, they insist that these "delusions" when combined with a mandate to "conquer the world for God" have actually hurt humanity by dividing it and abating its collective progress toward social justice, tolerance, self-rule, scientific discovery and personal freedom. I must agree. I guess this makes me a spirit-lead, Bible-Skeptical, (Christian?) Deist ( I hates labels!). A heretic, nevertheless!
Gee, its late! I'm going to bed! Love to all ! :HeartThrob:
Grace & Peace, John (Rm 1:19-20)
Well I have not watched the vid but I have seen Kirk on TV.
Half the plan of salvation is worked out in him, Jesus/Father have done the initial revelation.
Because of his star status, thrust into a ministry he is not called into and clearly w/o even watching the vid, he is not qualified to speak out.
Pretty faces doth not a teacher make. All he has done is to exchange the glamour and glitz of Hollywood for the glamour and glitz of "christian" TV.
How close am I? Promise I have not looked.
Blessings
Quote from: Molly on December 05, 2007, 03:40:45 AM
The youngest children were taught this:
Jesus loves me, this I know
'cause the Bible tells me so
Little ones to him belong
They are weak, but he is strong.
Yes Jesus loves me
Yes Jesus loves me
Yes Jesus loves me
The Bible tells me so!
Didn't you guys sing songs like that as little children?
No... I never heard that song until I knew He loved me because
HE told me so! :HeartThrob: Thank you, Lord! :HeartThrob:
You are pretty close there SeekerSA, Kirk definetely had that deer in the headlights stare, like his mom just told him his dad isn't his real dad, or something like that.
Quote from: jfraysse on December 05, 2007, 09:29:32 AM
Hey Molly, I sing these songs too! Who wouldn't. The idea that some cosmic force or being created and cares about us, and even took our form and was willing to be tortured and killed to confirm God's Law of Love is compelling beyond words! But these songs point out the "goodness and light" aspects of Christianity and do not touch on its theologically complicated, dark and morally ambiguous aspects.
Atheists and agonistics attack these elements of institutionalize religion. They tend to target the "Big Three Abrahamic" faiths (Christianity, Judaism and Islam), especially fundamentalism which can lead to Religious Fascism. They argue that the existence of a personal God is completely unsustainable in any rational or scientific sense. Further, they insist that these "delusions" when combined with a mandate to "conquer the world for God" have actually hurt humanity by dividing it and abating its collective progress toward social justice, tolerance, self-rule, scientific discovery and personal freedom. I must agree. I guess this makes me a spirit-lead, Bible-Skeptical, (Christian?) Deist ( I hates labels!). A heretic, nevertheless!
Gee, its late! I'm going to bed! Love to all ! :HeartThrob:
Grace & Peace, John (Rm 1:19-20)
What's "theologically complicated, dark, and morally ambiguous" about Love your neighbor as yourself?
Nothing. lol. Jesus told us the two greatest commandments were Love God and Love your neighbor. He said all the law and the prophets were summarized in these two commandments. These two are also found in the Old Testament, as he was pointing out to the rabbinical leaders of the time, something they seemed to consistently overlook along with some modern sects of Christianity who will remain unnamed (hear that Hagee?).
Here are these commandments from Jesus in the New and directly from God himself in the Old Testament:
Matthew 22
But when the Pharisees heard that He had put the Sadducees to silence, they gathered themselves together. And one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
And He said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."Deut 6:5
You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
Lev 19
18 " '.... but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.
Did you guys learn the golden rule as children?
Matt 7:12
Therefore, however you want people to treat you, so treat them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.Jesus made it as simple as he possibly could for these evil men who do not love God or they would obey his second commandment. Even a child could understand it. If the three great religions of this world would listen to their God, I think it would be a much nicer place to live. As usual, the problem is man, not God.
PS Don't you miss the personal relationship with God?
Quote from: SeekerSA on December 05, 2007, 11:12:25 AM
Well I have not watched the vid but I have seen Kirk on TV.
Half the plan of salvation is worked out in him, Jesus/Father have done the initial revelation.
Because of his star status, thrust into a ministry he is not called into and clearly w/o even watching the vid, he is not qualified to speak out.
Pretty faces doth not a teacher make. All he has done is to exchange the glamour and glitz of Hollywood for the glamour and glitz of "christian" TV.
How close am I? Promise I have not looked.
Blessings
He didn't have the science background to deal with these two lightweight atheists. A scientist could have dealt with them in a newyork minute. And, their demeanor was mean and hard hearted, so they didn't win any points there, either.
They think the universe created itself. Someone should put them in a room with the pieces of a Swiss watch and command them to stay there watching them until the pieces assemble themselves into a perfect watch keeping perfect time. Don't touch! Tell them we don't want to hear from them again until they can show us the watch.
Before anyone waxes poetic about atheists, it should be noted that this is part of an orchestrated social movement away from Christianity. You all may have noticed the subset of that which is a movement away from liberty and freedom. They are just pawns. Check out history and note that the great communist countries cannot allow Christianity because it is so threatening to their central fascist command. People who believe in God are put in mental institutions or killed outright. The Russian communists killed 60 to 100 million of them.
He who is ignorant of history is destined to repeat it.
It is interesting that in the car ride to the "event" two of the "atheists" make that Satanic hand gesture.
Quote from: SeekerSA on December 05, 2007, 11:12:25 AM
Well I have not watched the vid but I have seen Kirk on TV.
Half the plan of salvation is worked out in him, Jesus/Father have done the initial revelation.
Because of his star status, thrust into a ministry he is not called into and clearly w/o even watching the vid, he is not qualified to speak out.
Pretty faces doth not a teacher make. All he has done is to exchange the glamour and glitz of Hollywood for the glamour and glitz of "christian" TV.
How close am I? Promise I have not looked. Blessings
Sad. but true Seeker. His heart is right, he clearly wants to serve God, but he has been indoctrinated by man and not by God so much it hurts me (for him) to watch him. This is a prime example of what respect of persons does. People look at the outward titles, successes, ect. and their attitude towards them changes, and they are ascribed maturity in God they may not even have yet.
He once took me into a church evening service when I was visiting some people in Canada and gave me a word of knowledge and a word of wisdom for the pastor's wife, and the co-pastor, which I related after the service, privately, who tearfully acknowledged it was God. He also gave me a word for 2 men in the church, HE said were elders He had placed there, one of whom told me he had just prayed asking an answer to that very thing (isn't He amazing?), in the morning service.
The "funny" thing was, those 2 men were not the elders the church recognized as elders. He knows those who are seeking His face/nature and those who are in a place in their walk of seeking recognition of men, yet He loves all men equally. Now that's a good God. Blessings to all......
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on December 05, 2007, 03:05:53 PM
It is interesting that in the car ride to the "event" two of the "atheists" make that Satanic hand gesture.
Yes, I noticed that, too, LOL.
I just heard this about astronomers on the radio yesterday, so I googled and found this on wisconsin christian news.
"Ninety percent of all astronomers alive today, those that look into the farthest extent of the universe, believe the hand that made the stars is Divine! The esteemed astronomer Carl Sagan and other prominent scientists have estimated that the possibility of man evolving at roughly 1 chance in 102,000,000,000. This is the number one with two billion zeros after it. No chance at all. The famous astronomer and mathematician Sir Fred Hoyle wrote, "The chance that life forms might have emerged in this way is comparable with the chance that a tornado sweeping through a junk yard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the materials within, or a dictionary resulting from an explosion at a print shop."
:cloud9: LOL, loved that Sir Fred observation........ :HeartThrob:
the hand signals are to offend fundamentalist christians. Its not because they are satan worshippers.
Athiests dont believe any more in satan then they do in God. Its laughable to them.
kept
Hey Sister Molly: I appreciate your pure heart! You are one of many on this site! You, of course, are correct about "loving your neighbor" and yes, this is easy to understand, but as I pointed out, this idea is part of the "goodness and light" aspects of religion. BTW, the law of reciprocity is not unique to the Abrahamic faiths and, in fact, is quite common among other world religions that pre-date the Big Three by thousands of years.
What Christianity and Jesus bring to the table that is UNIQUE is the concept of "unconditional love" and the idea of "sacrificial love", that is, loving someone without requirements on their part and the laying down of one's life for, not only one's friends, but also for the greater good of one's enemies. These "rules to live by" are very difficult to implement but nevertheless, easy to understand. After these and a few more, the theology becomes complicated, dark and morally ambiguous to the point that anyone so disposed can justify about anything with the Bible record!
We can discuss some of these "dark" topics if you like, but the bottom line is that I don't believe the Biblical record in many places, especially the OT. I reject much of the Dogma associated with St Paul's letters and all prophecies associated with the "end-times". I believe many of these to be divisive and counter-productive to improving the human condition.
Romans 1:19-20 makes sense to me and if it is true, then everyone (even without "scriptures") has a knowledge of God that is spiritually revealed and John 15:26 states that God's Spirit will guide us in all truth.
Using our God-given ability to reason and the assurance of God's spiritual help is the only hope we have to survive our own religiosity. To me, this is very personal and reason for me to be continually thankful!
Grace & Peace, John :HeartThrob:
I couldn't watch the whole thing. Kinda made me nauseous.
There was little of scientific merit from either side. For Kirk and Ray it was another evangelizing opportunity and they didn't do their homework. I suspect their hearts were in the right place, but they were unprepared. For the atheists it was nothing more than a "urinating" match (sorry, a lousy attempt at trying to soften my language there).
Andrew
Arup,
Because you did not watch the entire thing, I believe you came to the wrong conclusion over it. I could be wrong, but because you didn't finish it, you didn't see the heart of the people who were against Kirk Cameron. They are genuinely good people...
FYI - The signal isn't devil Worship. Ronnie James Dio, a rock star in the late 70's and early 80's made it up. Simply put, Ronnie James Dio called the hand gesture "Darkness". Now, you have to understand that Ronnie James Dio is agnostic himself. He doesn't believe in the devil, and also speaks out against institutionalized religion. I see nothing wrong with the rock hand gesture, especially as used in the video. It was clearly a response to get mindless Christian fundamentals into a blood frenzy.
Arup, you also seem to forgot the the burdan of proof lies upon Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc... They are the ones trying to convert and spread fear through. In fact, these guys mentioned that these religions are terrorists and touches on that. Something Gary of this site believes as well! I thought to myself, AMEN when those two athiests made that statement, because it is true! Anyway, to get back to my main point, the burden of proof is on Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc... Therefore, no scientific evidence was even needed on their part except to refute the empiracle evidence...
I suppose some people are going to try and label me an athiest for this - that is ok. God knows where I stand. The fact is, I cannot prove God exists, I believe it. I am totally at peace about not being able to prove it through science. Why does everyone else get upset?
Quote from: Gabe Grinstead on December 06, 2007, 06:30:05 AM
Arup,
Because you did not watch the entire thing, I believe you came to the wrong conclusion over it. I could be wrong, but because you didn't finish it, you didn't see the heart of the people who were against Kirk Cameron. They are genuinely good people...
Hi, Gabe. You might be right. If I get some time later I'll see if can catch the whole thing...
edit - I guess I just got the sense from the first few minutes that they were more interested in making the Christians look stupid than having a real discussion... I'll try to hold my judgment until I look at it again...
I am sorry to say, for those whom say the "intentions" of the "atheists" are good. You say watch the entire video and you will see their good intentions?
One only has to go to the beginning to see the intentions. (have you seen the end without going to the beginning? :laughing7:)
I watched this video yesterday and the fact that Ray uses some of the OT commandments to prove God's existense was so wrong; when Kirk said they would use no scriptures to prove God.
The fact that Kirk and Ray ask people if they lie, commit adultery (in the heart), and steal is proof that all they have is the OT and law to try to get people to listen to their spiel. I always tell people how much God loves them....no matter what they've done or will do.
Ray holds up a picture and said that scientists locked in a room would agree that someone had painted it. The fact is that scientists wouldn't know that someone painted the picture unless they had been told that fact, or seen someone paint it themselves. All scientific truths have to be observable....if I told 100 people to put a bar of Ivory soap in water to see if it floats; that's scientific observation. But, to simply stair at a picture to "prove" someone painted it doesn't prove a thing.
For me, anyway, the fact that I can't prove God exists is greatly satisfying to my soul. If God was provable mathmatically, scientifically, or any other way, He would be no greater than the items that are used to prove their scientific validity.
I watched a number of these utubes from athiests and noticed the hellfire doctrine came up repeatedly. I don't think these people hate God, they hate the idea that God would burn and torment people forever for no other reason than they didn't believe in Him. IMO of course.
quote
QuoteFYI - The signal isn't devil Worship. Ronnie James Dio, a rock star in the late 70's and early 80's made it up. Simply put, Ronnie James Dio called the hand gesture "Darkness". Now, you have to understand that Ronnie James Dio is agnostic himself. He doesn't believe in the devil, and also speaks out against institutionalized religion. I see nothing wrong with the rock hand gesture, especially as used in the video. It was clearly a response to get mindless Christian fundamentals into a blood frenzy.
There are those whom might disagree that its just for fun rock and rollers. But believe as you may.
http://www.exposingsatanism.org/signsymbols.htm
see this one especially
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7291576249010861576
and this one
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Wicca%20&%20Witchcraft/signs_of_satan.htm
QuoteI watched a number of these utubes from athiests and noticed the hellfire doctrine came up repeatedly. I don't think these people hate God, they hate the idea that God would burn and torment people forever for no other reason than they didn't believe in Him. IMO of course.
I got that feeling too. I am sure a lot of them believe in God, but hate the God that Ray and Kirck teach, their God is irrational.
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on December 06, 2007, 03:00:46 PM
I am sorry to say, for those whom say the "intentions" of the "atheists" are good. You say watch the entire video and you will see their good intentions?
One only has to go to the beginning to see the intentions. (have you seen the end without going to the beginning? :laughing7:)
I am affraid that some of this is going over your head. You seem to think these people are anti Christian. The reality is that they are anti-Religion Christian. There is a HUGE difference. You see, most people that represent Christianity are not Christians at all. They just going through the motions. A true Christian is to know God and those that know God will not believe that is pure evil (ET). For it God does inflict ET, then truly he is evil. But those that know God know that he is not like that. Thus, most Athiests know God better than most Christians.
You are free to dissagree, but I think you are simply offended that people speak out about Christianity and you somehow find yourself in that group. Whether this is a misconception of yours or not, I am not sure. When someone says "I hate Christians" you can't take it personally or that they hate you. You have to understand the context. They are saying that they hate the Christians they see on TV and the ones they met, and generally for good reason. You need to find out WHAT it is they hate about them instead of simply taking offense and writing them off as God-haters. The reality is, they hate the false God of Christianity, which is the one who tortures people. I hate that False God too! Thank goodness that is NOT the true God. That is a false God whom 90% of the spiritual world worships.
I am a believer in Christ and I am not offend by those who speak out against Christianity. Because, again, I am not sure I want to be associated with the name Christian because of all the people that clearly give it a bad name.
As for the devil horns... A lot of that stuff is non sense. Pure and utter non-sense. Do you believe that an actual curse comes out of your hands if you do the 'devil horns'? A curse is in the intent, not doing some motion with your hands. A curse is from the heart and that is why it is bad.
If people want to know why I mock the occult, it is because I simply believe too many people believe that Satan has more power than God. People run around trying to cast out demons of sex, lust, etc... That is laughable. I am sorry, that is just pure laughable. I simply don't believe that touching a video game with a warlock in it is going to unleash demons into my house, or take posses my child... Sorry, I am not sure I believe that way.
Even if it does exist, ones intent would have to be on unleashing those powers. I have no intent to raise undead minions to do my bidding. Additionally, if someone cast a spell on me, I would laugh it off. Besides, isn't God, my protector more powerful than any spell that could be cast on me? I mean seriously... People have taken this occult thing WAY TO FAR and have given it power to scare and spread fear.
Isn't Elijah and the 400 Profits of Bail proof enough? 400 Profits chanting to the bail god (devil worship) and nothing! Seems to me it is powerless.
All Christians are my brothers and sisters in Christ, this is why I defend them.
I'm sorry if you thought I was empowering the occult, as I wasn't, nor do I acknowledge that it has any power over those whom serve God, but this doesn't mean that people aren't into it or that they might not use a hand signal to identify each other.
Yes, I do think those spirits were anti-christian. Everything has a spiritual root.
1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
As I see things more clearly, the spirit world is the real world of whom Jesus Christ is Lord, this is a real fact, so where we have spirits denying this fact, we have a spiritual battle. I cannot look on these type of things anymore with American political correctness, As Jesus is Lord, and thats at real fact.
Tis all good. Sometimes it takes a the lowiest of animals to have God speak through, an athiest challenging a Christian who cannot defend their irrational God, would be no different than a donkey doing it, would you agree?
No, I wouldn't agree. I rather the donkey do it. As I said, where we have spirits denying Christ, we have a spiritual battle. Jesus is Lord, the spirits know this, even the unclean ones, so where there is a human being battling Christ, it is a spirit battling, with no good intentions.
(or what would you think if a donkey was speaking that there is no God?) You would say it had an unclean spirit in it. (at least I think you would)
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on December 06, 2007, 10:47:09 PM
(or what would you think if a donkey was speaking that there is no God?) You would say it had an unclean spirit in it. (at least I think you would)
Uhhm... That depends. Do you recall in the OT when God said he would send a lying spirit? Don't you find that interesting? Can you explain what that is and was?
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on December 06, 2007, 10:47:09 PM
No, I wouldn't agree. I rather the donkey do it. As I said, where we have spirits denying Christ, we have a spiritual battle. Jesus is Lord, the spirits know this, even the unclean ones, so where there is a human being battling Christ, it is a spirit battling, with no good intentions.
I cannot say I dissagree with this. But I am not sure why this applies... These people are not attempting to debunk Jesus. They are debunking 1) That Kirk and Ray did not have any scientific evidence and 2) That God is going to send people to eternal torture. I don't see this as Anti-Christ at all... I see that as the facts... God isn't going to eternally torture anyone, and Kirk and Ray did NOT have any scientific data... So, tell, where does the bolded part you wrote about really apply?
I think I've watched that debate between Kirk Cameron and the atheists.......interesting to say the least.
......wish both sides would have found some common ground to build on like......kindness, family, charity.......and most of all love. I'm sure both sides would agree that God isn't a bearded old man who lives in the sky.
I wish Kirk Cameron would have gone into defining what he believes God is. Seems as though he defines God as creator, and the atheists say we have no creator. That's where everything gets tricky. I wish they would have went into asking the atheists about what they believe is guiding the universe starting from what they call the "Big Bang"......and about their theories on mass consciousness, and if they believe there is such a thing.....and if so how it impacts the universe and all the complexities of time and how it unfolds for each of us in its own mysterious way.
These are the kinds of things atheists, Christians, and all people should be asking -- how is it that we are -- how is it that we even exist?....and how is it that we may find Hope for humanity.....and know that goodness will prevail?
Lately I've been listening to some recordings from Jane Goodall (you know the lady who studies the chimpanzees of Africa) and I've been thinking about getting one of her books.......it's called A Reason For Hope :HeartThrob:
Here is the link to some of the reviews on amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/Reason-Hope-Spiritual-Jane-Goodall/dp/0446676136/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1196975394&sr=1-3
:cloud9: SG, I'm not trying to get all off subject here, but have you seen the work someone (not sure who she was now) did with a chimp and a small pictograph thing where she trained it in sign language? So it would ask for an apple, or to hold it's kitten. I love His creation, and when I saw that, I just started bawling,and praising God. Bawling for what poor stewards man has been of the creatures of the earth, and praising Him for the spirit He placed in them. Blessings to you.....
:cloud9: And Gabe, I know God is more powerful than Satan, but the Word He had me tell people to stand on regarding those sorts of things, is "Take not an unclean thing into your house, lest ye worship that thing."
When He had me in that walk many years ago, it was nothing to see things flying off the walls of their homes and MUCH WORSE, when we went to witness, and I was continually having to educate them on why they needed to get the astrology books, ouija boards, tarot cards, ect., demonic so-called "kids" games like D and D, out of their homes and repent of such.
Now understand they didn't come forward admitting to these things initially; they wanted help for the very real evil manifestations they were experiencing in their homes, and were scared, and looking to blame anything but what they had done to bring it in. But in ministering truth to them, the evil spirits got angry because they didn't want to leave their happy home(s) and so would manifest openly in our presence, which would lead to the questions about what they had done to open the door to it. I NEVER saw anyone who didn't open the door by bringing one or more of these things into their home, or else not being aware their children had, one of the two.
One of my more memorable times, the woman's son had brought in the offending games. While we were sitting at her kitchen table discussing why this was bad, and she was making excuses because she didn't want to confront her son about it, suddenly the lights went out in ONLY her apartment, and it sounded like 5 seconds later, right beside her in the dark, like someone dropped a bowling ball from about 6 feet high. She screamed and literally nearly jumped in my lap, hanging on my neck (I was sitting on the other side of her from the noise) begging me to help her. If she hadn't been terrified it would have been really funny, so abrupt was her change of heart.
The Word IS a sword, cutting asunder soul and spirit, and sometimes soulish things don't take kindly to the circumcision process, LOL. Blessings to all.....
omgosh you guys, athiests are donkeys and what was Gary A as a former agnostic, a monkey or something?
I am very dissappointed, you guys need to get out more, rub sholders with people that dont believe in a God and you will find most of them are not much different than you are. They live, they love, they laugh, they cry.
kept
Quote from: Kept on December 07, 2007, 01:01:18 AM
omgosh you guys, athiests are donkeys and what was Gary A as a former agnostic, a monkey or something?
I am very dissappointed, you guys need to get out more, rub sholders with people that dont believe in a God and you will find most of them are not much different than you are. They live, they love, they laugh, they cry.
kept
Amen! :D
I never said Atheists are donkeys, I said that if God could use a Donkey, why can't he use an Athiest? :P
QuoteTis all good. Sometimes it takes a the lowiest of animals to have God speak through, an athiest challenging a Christian who cannot defend their irrational God, would be no different than a donkey doing it, would you agree?
yeah, but go back and read, you said the lowest of animals, and so your point was athiests are the lowest of humans
that my friend is really ugly to me and how most of the wonderful christians that come to 'save' them treat them too and then they wonder why there is so much anger?
kept
Quote from: Kept on December 07, 2007, 02:34:05 AM
QuoteTis all good. Sometimes it takes a the lowiest of animals to have God speak through, an athiest challenging a Christian who cannot defend their irrational God, would be no different than a donkey doing it, would you agree?
yeah, but go back and read, you said the lowest of animals, and so your point was athiests are the lowest of humans
that my friend is really ugly to me and how most of the wonderful christians that come to 'save' them treat them too and then they wonder why there is so much anger?
kept
Kept,
I don't think Craig meant it in that way... Besides, we were all athiests at some point, even if we do not remember it. Therefore, it is one of those things you cannot really be prejaduce against what you once were. Some people still are though. I think many Athiests believe in a God, just not a personal God. They might not admit it, but I think that is probably where many stand today. Like, they don't leave out the possibility of God, they just don't want false hope?
quote arcticmonster2003
QuoteNo, I wouldn't agree. I rather the donkey do it. As I said, where we have spirits denying Christ, we have a spiritual battle. Jesus is Lord, the spirits know this, even the unclean ones, so where there is a human being battling Christ, it is a spirit battling, with no good intentions.
quote Gabe
QuoteI cannot say I dissagree with this. But I am not sure why this applies... These people are not attempting to debunk Jesus. They are debunking 1) That Kirk and Ray did not have any scientific evidence and 2) That God is going to send people to eternal torture. I don't see this as Anti-Christ at all... I see that as the facts... God isn't going to eternally torture anyone, and Kirk and Ray did NOT have any scientific data... So, tell, where does the bolded part you wrote about really apply?
Again I did explain pretty well my belief that "the spirit world is the real world" understanding, these people were anti-God period, and Christ is God, since they don't even acknowledge God, they certainly don't acknowledge that he walked the earth as Jesus Christ. I agree that Kirk and Ray were in over their head, they should know better than to babble about scientific proof, and did not realize that this was a spiritual matter, but they are blessed for the persecution in Christs name.
If you disagree on why this applies, I do understand. What I feel is based on their spirit, not their words so much.
quote arcticmonster
Quote(or what would you think if a donkey was speaking that there is no God?) You would say it had an unclean spirit in it. (at least I think you would)
quote Gabe
QuoteUhhm... That depends. Do you recall in the OT when God said he would send a lying spirit? Don't you find that interesting? Can you explain what that is and was?
Ok, Gabe, if I saw a donkey saying there is no God, I would agree it could be called a lying or unclean spirit, but I wouldn't listen to it or try to justify that donkey's words when it clearly came to lie to me. When it was clearly a lying spirit or unclean spirit.
As far as God sending these spirits, I really don't want to address that here, as there is "Sovereinty" thread in the debate section thats like 50 pages long.
The reason I said I would rather have a donkey say there is no God, is that then people would more easily be able to see the unclean\lying spirit, since donkeys do not talk ordinarily, even the unbelieving would then see it is a spiritual matter, not a fleshly matter.
Kept, sorry about the donkeys, as I was responding to questions that were made, and am talking of a spiritual matter.
I am gracefully bowing out of this thread. :angel5:
Quote from: Kept on December 07, 2007, 02:34:05 AM
QuoteTis all good. Sometimes it takes a the lowiest of animals to have God speak through, an athiest challenging a Christian who cannot defend their irrational God, would be no different than a donkey doing it, would you agree?
yeah, but go back and read, you said the lowest of animals, and so your point was athiests are the lowest of humans
that my friend is really ugly to me and how most of the wonderful christians that come to 'save' them treat them too and then they wonder why there is so much anger?
kept
Then you didn't understand how I said it.
The reason there is so much anger, is because people jump to conclusions and let their emotions rule them. We need to keep our emotions in check and examine our hearts.
Quote..and then they wonder why there is so much anger?
Kept, they are angry at God. Trust me on this one. I'm surrounded by them.
Notice how they spend almost as much time talking about God as we do?
Understand, these atheists think they won the debate. They actually think they 'won' something.
Well, what did they win? The proof that they are going to be annihilated when they die? The proof that there is really no purpose in life except their own shallow pleasures? The proof that they really don't have very much to aspire to or to live for? The proof that they are ultimately alone in the universe and there is no good reason to do one thing or another?
Ok, they won.
So did Camus. Right before he drove his car into a tree.
I honestly don't think they were atheist. They were rationalists. A little different. They want to believe in a loving God and they believe it is more rational than what these two were teaching.
QuoteAs for the devil horns... A lot of that stuff is non sense. Pure and utter non-sense. Do you believe that an actual curse comes out of your hands if you do the 'devil horns'? A curse is in the intent, not doing some motion with your hands. A curse is from the heart and that is why it is bad.
I wouldn't say it is a curse so much as a signal. They are signaling each other, declaring themselves, while the world sleeps on...
Back in the 70's I thought YWAM had some really good things. In some ways I suppose I still do if it's still around. But a lot of it now I see is clearly bunk. I think Ray Comfort was with that organization. I just feel so bad for the discipleship doctrines that captivate people like Kirk Cameron. They don't honor their conscience in being their own man. They're in submission to an elder and really are victimized by them. God is JEALOUS. His relationship with us is without another mediator.
I put 3 messages there just a while ago, Bernie. The man's book is over 25 bucks and has a horrid picture of a giant pot with demons trying to get out of it. Jerry says we choose to go to such an ugly place....what a crock. Who chooses to be tortured, burned, scalded and in misery forever. These hellfire folk must be crazy, or they just don't think about the nasty things they believe.
"...in whom the god of this eon blinds the apprehensions of the unbelieving, so that the illumination of the evangel of the glory of Christ, Who is the Image of the invisible God, does not irradiate them." (2 Cor 4:4)
There is a god-power blinding them to the glory. Is Christ fully formed in us? How much do we see? Elders, who can see for others until they see, are not to keep the blind dependant, binding others to themselves, but are to raise up Christ in others that they may see for themselves. Rather that actually lead on into a futher place, carnal "leadership" of the religious bureaucrazies just perpetuate their own superior positions, lording over the ignorant in gentile authority, standing in the entrance but neither entering themselves nor allowing those that are about to enter to do so. Many teach Jesus left and sent the Holy Spirit to put them in charge over us rather than to put us under the charge of Jesus through the Holy Spirit then leave. My measure of "ministry" is how much of the expression of Christ I can raise up in others.
---James
Quote from: shibboleth on December 06, 2007, 03:10:08 PM
I watched this video yesterday and the fact that Ray uses some of the OT commandments to prove God's existense was so wrong; when Kirk said they would use no scriptures to prove God.
The fact that Kirk and Ray ask people if they lie, commit adultery (in the heart), and steal is proof that all they have is the OT and law to try to get people to listen to their spiel. I always tell people how much God loves them....no matter what they've done or will do.
Ray holds up a picture and said that scientists locked in a room would agree that someone had painted it. The fact is that scientists wouldn't know that someone painted the picture unless they had been told that fact, or seen someone paint it themselves. All scientific truths have to be observable....if I told 100 people to put a bar of Ivory soap in water to see if it floats; that's scientific observation. But, to simply stair at a picture to "prove" someone painted it doesn't prove a thing.
For me, anyway, the fact that I can't prove God exists is greatly satisfying to my soul. If God was provable mathmatically, scientifically, or any other way, He would be no greater than the items that are used to prove their scientific validity.
I watched a number of these utubes from athiests and noticed the hellfire doctrine came up repeatedly. I don't think these people hate God, they hate the idea that God would burn and torment people forever for no other reason than they didn't believe in Him. IMO of course.
Atheist input :mblush: The techniques used by the theists in the video are rhetorical tricks. They are, in effect, fallacies, not evidence. They are, not to put too fine a point upon it, deceivers.
I am aware, of course, that the general thrust of belief on this forum is with the atheists, after all the arguments used against hell-doctrine is pretty much those employed by those unbelievers. It is a constant wonder to me that secular logic is used here to dispose of hell, but is discarded as soon as that is done. Applied to any other religious matter, the tools of logic are abandoned and we are back to Faith, 'who knows' and proving the Bible by quoting the Bible.
You are right; atheists don't hate God, how can one hate what desn't exist? They reject, very strongly, just as you do here on Tentmaker, the horrible idea of a god who is supposed to be good and just dreaming up something like hell. Odd thing is, that as soon as we start to look at something that the Bible definitely does say - that God destroyed most of his creation with a flood, that he killed the first born of Egypt, destroys Amalek's people, assassinates Israelites (Exodus 32.) poisons his followers (num 11.33) slaughters, murders, destroys, maims, curses..the list goes on... won't we get the sort of excuses that Mr. Comfort and his ilk use to justify their beliefs?
I just suggest applying the lessons of Luke 6.42. and ask whether those things which Comfort and co do which you sadly shake all your heads over is not what you yourselves do in every biblical doctrine - other than the doctrine of hell?
Quoteauthor=Molly link=topic=1553.msg15151#msg15151 date=1196998528]
Quote..and then they wonder why there is so much anger?
QuoteKept, they are angry at God. Trust me on this one. I'm surrounded by them.
Notice how they spend almost as much time talking about God as we do?
Molly, might I suggest that, rather than post........unsupported statements....(I am trying to avoid the "L" word...) about atheists, of whom you know nothing, you might first put some of your points to them? You could try any atheist forum; you could ask me.
Atheists are not angry at God. They do not believe in God. They are angry at the constant forcing of religion down their necks. They are angry at being told how they should live their lives, with a religion they don't believe as the touchstone. They are angry, Molly, at being the subject of uniformed and deprecatory remarks such as those (I regret to say), set out by yourself above.
Atheists would not spend a moment talking abut God, religion or the Bible, were it not that Theists of a thousand different kinds, some kindly, others hostile, some positively dangerous, but ALL convinced that it it their duty to have everyone think as they do, are pouring money and effort into peddling the religious product and to misrepresenting anyone that that doesn't want to buy - in as foolish, misled or actually some form of wicked criminal. That, Molly, is what they are angry at, and that is what they are fighting against.
Their agenda is simple; to be left alone to believe or not to believe.
Quote from: SOtW on December 06, 2007, 07:48:43 PM
QuoteI watched a number of these utubes from athiests and noticed the hellfire doctrine came up repeatedly. I don't think these people hate God, they hate the idea that God would burn and torment people forever for no other reason than they didn't believe in Him. IMO of course.
I got that feeling too. I am sure a lot of them believe in God, but hate the God that Ray and Kirck teach, their God is irrational.
:Sparkletooth: Of course you are sure that a lot of atheists believe in God, just as a lot of gays that I have met were sure that all non gays were really gay, but just refused to admit it
Hi Transponder. I take it you're an atheist? I didn't make an unsupported statement. I have said earlier that I am surrounded by atheists and have been all my life. So, although I don't really know everything that goes on in their heads, I can make some statements about my experience of them. And, my experience is that they hate God. That's why I made that statement. It's something that I've observed.
QuoteAtheists are not angry at God. They do not believe in God. They are angry at the constant forcing of religion down their necks.
No one is forcing religion down anyone's neck. This is a Christian country, just like it is an English speaking country. Is it fair to say we are forcing English down your neck? For the atheists to start insisting we do this and that relative to constricting our Christianity is the same as them doing the same thing with respect to the English language, as far as I'm concerned. And, no I don't want to get into a bogus 'separation of church and state' argument. No where does it say that in the Constitution.
This is the way I see it. If you don't believe in God, fine. I don't believe in santa claus. But I don't go around needling little children, making fun of them, making insulting remarks about santa claus to them, insisting that they do not believe in santa claus, insisting that santa claus is a made up hoax meant to hurt them, making crude jokes about santa claus.
I might even resent santa claus because it is pagan, or because it requires that I have to put myself out once a year pretending to be santa claus---but still I wouldn't do those things.
Why not? Because I'm basically neutral on santa claus. I don't hate santa claus so much that I feel I have to attack every kid who believes in him, or attack the idea of santa claus himself.
So, there's something going on here, yes, there is an anger, and it's not at imaginary figure called God, it is at God himself. That's how I see it.
QuoteTheir agenda is simple; to be left alone to believe or not to believe.
Well, if you really wanted to be left alone, it would be pretty easy. Nobody is forcing you to believe anything you don't want to believe. Just like I'm not forced to believe anything I don't want to believe. You and I are the same in that respect. I have to put up with pornography, you have to put up with God, but both of us can lead lives which are not greatly impacted by things that are terrifically distasteful to us. That's because we still live in a free society, of sorts. And, that's because the Christians are running things. We've all seen what happens when the atheists run things--60 million Russians dead, mostly Christian. So I'm happy to leave you alone, but I don't want you running my life.
I'm talking to you as though you are an atheist, but it is a strawman argument. I don't really know what your beliefs are, but these are the arguments I would make to an atheist.
Quote from: Transponder on December 12, 2007, 05:04:50 PM
Quote from: SOtW on December 06, 2007, 07:48:43 PM
QuoteI watched a number of these utubes from athiests and noticed the hellfire doctrine came up repeatedly. I don't think these people hate God, they hate the idea that God would burn and torment people forever for no other reason than they didn't believe in Him. IMO of course.
I got that feeling too. I am sure a lot of them believe in God, but hate the God that Ray and Kirck teach, their God is irrational.
:Sparkletooth: Of course you are sure that a lot of atheists believe in God, just as a lot of gays that I have met were sure that all non gays were really gay, but just refused to admit it
Context. I have met Atheists who claim to be atheists but are actually agnostics, they themselves don't understand what label they gave themselves. For example, my ex-roommate, is strongly against the Christian God, but does not know if a God exists or not and so said, "Any reasonable and intelligent individual will be an agnostic, since none can know if there is a God or Higher Power and none can disprove a God or Higher Power."
Though in this video, these guys said at the end of the video, that they were not against God, only against the God Kirk teaches because his God doesn't make sense.
So don't put words in my mouth.
Very good point, brother SoTW. Thanks for reminding us all of this fact from the video. I must agree that Kirk and Ray did nothing to deflect the "Irrational Christian God" argument, so they were, in effect, tacitly admitting that the "god" they honor is a tyrant. This is the real reason they "got fried" in this debate not so much the picture thing although it was a weak argument as well.
Grace & Peace, John :HeartThrob:
QuoteWe've all seen what happens when the atheists run things--60 million Russians dead, mostly Christian. So I'm happy to leave you alone, but I don't want you running my life.
Sister Molly: The dead Russians were not caused by Atheism per se, but more correctly by Totalitarianism and Fascism. History has proven that Jews, Christians and Muslims are very capable of murdering tens of millions as well! You don't want Christians with absolute power running your life either! The framers of the Constitution (not Orthodox Christians, btw) were lead to separate Church and State for good reasons! I thank God for His provision but "the fathers" still missed His Spirit concerning Slavery!
Grace & Peace, John :HeartThrob:
Shibboleth,
QuoteJerry says we choose to go to such an ugly place....what a crock. Who chooses to be tortured, burned, scalded and in misery forever. These hellfire folk must be crazy, or they just don't think about the nasty things they believe.
I've about come to the conclusion that they really don't believe it, they just think they do. How many of them would call up a neighbor if there was a tornado headed their way, or, warn the friends and family to stay away from their house if a family member had a stomach virus?
My favorite question, here lately, has become, "how many people have you warned about Hell today?"
Even when I believed it, or thought I did, I was not comfortable warning people about it....why in the world??? It doesn't make sense does it?
just my rambling...
Debbie
That "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God," that it is His gift, means there is no living faith for lies. People can't superficially tell the difference; but, you touched on what is actually perceivable, a proof that "Eternal Torment" cannot be true: nobody really believes it!
Quoteauthor=Molly link=topic=1553.msg15585#msg15585 date=1197476732]
Hi Transponder. I take it you're an atheist? I didn't make an unsupported statement. I have said earlier that I am surrounded by atheists and have been all my life. So, although I don't really know everything that goes on in their heads, I can make some statements about my experience of them. And, my experience is that they hate God. That's why I made that statement. It's something that I've observed.
You take it right. I heard your statement that you are surrounded by atheists, or so you say - which is odd for what you call a 'christian country'. If there are so many atheists, should it not be , democratically a non-Christian country? No, because Christians insist that their beliefs should have the final say. And I say again, have you asked these atheists about their views rather than make assumptions about them on the basis of your observations which are quite evidently taken from a Christian-prejudiced viewpoint?
QuoteAtheists are not angry at God. They do not believe in God. They are angry at the constant forcing of religion down their necks.
QuoteNo one is forcing religion down anyone's neck. This is a Christian country, just like it is an English speaking country. Is it fair to say we are forcing English down your neck? For the atheists to start insisting we do this and that relative to constricting our Christianity is the same as them doing the same thing with respect to the English language, as far as I'm concerned. And, no I don't want to get into a bogus 'separation of church and state' argument. No where does it say that in the Constitution.
The difference between English and Christianity is that, without a common language, we cannot communicate. Without religion, we can communicate better, without one group considering that their religious beliefs give them some sort of authority ove the others; or should.
Authority to say how people should live their lives. Now, I am giving you the benefit of the doubt; you probably don't bother non-believers too much. It is people of the Ray Comfort brand that are the danger. The fact is that a lot of people are becoming very doubtful about religion and its teachings and quite rightly so. This is not seen as a growing out of belief in Santa Claus; it is seen as a terrible thing that will undermine all society (1) and strenuous efforts are being made to introduce religion into all areas of public life, where it does not belong, according to the Constitution, despite what you say. Court rulings are, again and again, that attempts to Christianize school, work and government are unconstitutional. And still they keep at it. And you are in denial about it.
QuoteThis is the way I see it. If you don't believe in God, fine. I don't believe in santa claus. But I don't go around needling little children, making fun of them, making insulting remarks about santa claus to them, insisting that they do not believe in santa claus, insisting that santa claus is a made up hoax meant to hurt them, making crude jokes about santa claus.
If only that were true, but too many do not say 'If you don't believe in God, fine.' They say 'these people really believe in God, deep down inside; they are just afraid to admit it; that is why they argue against God so much'. or 'There must have been something to make them angry with God - they just need to be talked to a bit to make them come back to belief'. Getting them in a vulnerable position would do; being in the hands of the court, for instance, with a theist judge directing that they take a course of religious indoctrination or go to jail. Being passed over for a job because they did not profess theism at their interview. Being obliged to join in group prayers organized by an over-dedicated theist teacher, scoutmaster or boss.
QuoteI might even resent santa claus because it is pagan, or because it requires that I have to put myself out once a year pretending to be santa claus---but still I wouldn't do those things.
Why not? Because I'm basically neutral on santa claus. I don't hate santa claus so much that I feel I have to attack every kid who believes in him, or attack the idea of santa claus himself.
So, there's something going on here, yes, there is an anger, and it's not at imaginary figure called God, it is at God himself. That's how I see it.
And to take you analogy about Santa, how would you feel if a well-organized body insisted that your semi-doubtful acceptance of Santa as a five -year -old was not enough? You had to believe it, sincerely, as an adult. You had to organize your life, morals and behaviour on what Santa would want. Depending of course, on the particular views of the Santaists (2) that happen to have influence in your area. You were expected to attend weekly meetings to say how great Santa was, and you find your kids coming home from Santa indoctrination class to tell you that Santa does not want you to smoke. And if you protest that Santa is just a kid's tale, there are dark mutterings about 'Anti-santaists; why are you angry at Santa?' Are you getting the scene? Can you see what it is that gets atheists riled? Quite apart from Ray Comfort appearing publicly with scientific proof of the airworthiness of reindeer-drawn sleighs(3).
QuoteTheir agenda is simple; to be left alone to believe or not to believe.
QuoteWell, if you really wanted to be left alone, it would be pretty easy. Nobody is forcing you to believe anything you don't want to believe. Just like I'm not forced to believe anything I don't want to believe. You and I are the same in that respect. I have to put up with pornography, you have to put up with God, but both of us can lead lives which are not greatly impacted by things that are terrifically distasteful to us. That's because we still live in a free society, of sorts. And, that's because the Christians are running things. We've all seen what happens when the atheists run things--60 million Russians dead, mostly Christian. So I'm happy to leave you alone, but I don't want you running my life.
We all have to put up with things that we don't like, much. The world is full of people that can't tell the difference between being free to live as they want and wanting others to live the same way. I have to put up with rock music being rammed in my ears everywhere. You get what you call pornography pushed in your face. I presume you mean sex scenes in films. If you mean Real pornography, you ought to be more careful where you browse.
I love the stock argument that Stalin's misdeeds were due to atheism. They were due to one man's ruthlessness and the need to keep political power. The 'creed' of communism was the one that happened to be current in Russia at the time. You think 'That's because we still live in a free society, of sorts. And, that's because the Christians are running things.'? A free society has come about through many forces, but religion is not one of them, though of course, it likes to claim the credit. If anythng, democratic freedom has been achieved (such as it it is) through those that challenged authority. Refused to accept religious control by either pope, Catholic king, english monarch or Theocracy, whether Muslim or Baptist.
QuoteI'm talking to you as though you are an atheist, but it is a strawman argument. I don't really know what your beliefs are, but these are the arguments I would make to an atheist.
It isn't a strawman, actually. Since you don't know what my beliefs are, you cannot misrepresent them. However, having heard my explanation of what atheists do - or do not - believe, to continue the 'angry at God' idea - that would be a strawman argument.
(1) you say as much here: "That's because we still live in a free society, of sorts. And, that's because the Christians are running things. We've all seen what happens when the atheists run things--60 million Russians dead, mostly Christian." You prove my point, all on the basis of a strawman argument that atheists are going to behave like Stalin, if they ever succeed in finally easing myth and superstition out of public life.
(2) that almost came out wrong. :laughing7:
(3) well of course the one you built doesn't fly. You don't have enough Faith in Santa.
Quote from: jfraysse on December 12, 2007, 11:38:21 PM
QuoteWe've all seen what happens when the atheists run things--60 million Russians dead, mostly Christian. So I'm happy to leave you alone, but I don't want you running my life.
Sister Molly: The dead Russians were not caused by Atheism per se, but more correctly by Totalitarianism and Fascism. History has proven that Jews, Christians and Muslims are very capable of murdering tens of millions as well! You don't want Christians with absolute power running your life either! The framers of the Constitution (not Orthodox Christians, btw) were lead to separate Church and State for good reasons! I thank God for His provision but "the fathers" still missed His Spirit concerning Slavery!
Grace & Peace, John :HeartThrob:
Thank you. You restore my faith in the capacity of man for rational thought.
Quote from: SOtW on December 12, 2007, 08:02:09 PM
Quote from: Transponder on December 12, 2007, 05:04:50 PM
Quote from: SOtW on December 06, 2007, 07:48:43 PM
QuoteI watched a number of these utubes from athiests and noticed the hellfire doctrine came up repeatedly. I don't think these people hate God, they hate the idea that God would burn and torment people forever for no other reason than they didn't believe in Him. IMO of course.
I got that feeling too. I am sure a lot of them believe in God, but hate the God that Ray and Kirck teach, their God is irrational.
:Sparkletooth: Of course you are sure that a lot of atheists believe in God, just as a lot of gays that I have met were sure that all non gays were really gay, but just refused to admit it
Context. I have met Atheists who claim to be atheists but are actually agnostics, they themselves don't understand what label they gave themselves. For example, my ex-roommate, is strongly against the Christian God, but does not know if a God exists or not and so said, "Any reasonable and intelligent individual will be an agnostic, since none can know if there is a God or Higher Power and none can disprove a God or Higher Power."
Though in this video, these guys said at the end of the video, that they were not against God, only against the God Kirk teaches because his God doesn't make sense.
So don't put words in my mouth.
Sorry, I have to. There is a difference between not being angry at God and believing in God, deep down inside. You need to understand this.
"I watched a number of these utubes from athiests and noticed the hellfire doctrine came up repeatedly... I am sure a lot of them believe in God, but hate the God that Ray and Kirck teach, their God is irrational."
Atheists do not believe in any god,
per se if they do, they are theist. Of course, I agree with you that they may 'hate' (I might say strongly reject - "hate " is such an emotive word) some of the beliefs of Christians of various stripe.
SoTw
QuoteContext. I have met Atheists who claim to be atheists but are actually agnostics, they themselves don't understand what label they gave themselves. For example, my ex-roommate, is strongly against the Christian God, but does not know if a God exists or not and so said, "Any reasonable and intelligent individual will be an agnostic, since none can know if there is a God or Higher Power and none can disprove a God or Higher Power."
Comment on this. the basis of atheism is agnosticism. What the position is, is that there is no good reason to believe in any god and specifically not the God of the Bible, and there is every reason to disbelieve it. That is the position of the atheist. I venture to say, even the 'strong' atheist who says the he 'knows' there is no god. Logically such a thing cannot be known absolutely, but the strong atheist is as sure as anyone can be of anything in this world.
There is something rather than nothing at all. You could not manifest the nose on your face if you had to. What is extruding you into reality, a reality of such superfluity and excess? And all the order, all the life, from quantum and nuclear to microscopic and on to galactic clusters! Only nothing comes out of nothing. Consider that you can think about what I am saying. Don't flatter yourself that you're reasonable. You're only inexperienced.
What if, as some of us claim, you could know intimacies with the Source, Guide and Goal of everything everywhere?
Quote from: reFORMer on December 16, 2007, 07:02:40 AM
There is something rather than nothing at all. You could not manifest the nose on your face if you had to. What is extruding you into reality, a reality of such superfluity and excess? And all the order, all the life, from quantum and nuclear to microscopic and on to galactic clusters! Only nothing comes out of nothing. Consider that you can think about what I am saying. Don't flatter yourself that you're reasonable. You're only inexperienced.
What if, as some of us claim, you could know intimacies with the Source, Guide and Goal of everything everywhere?
I have no idea what you are talking about. Please express clearly the point you are making, if you are making any point at all.
It seems perfectly clear to me. It's in relatively simple English. You can read. Read it 'til you understand it...if you care to. Please.
Well, I have read it more times than it deserves and I don't feel inclined to try wrest any sense from what seems to be obscurity masquerading as Deep Wisdom. If you want to pretend that you have scored some point you may do so.