The Lord has me spend a good part of my study time in the first four chapters of Genesis; when I find myself not in that study, my reasoning goes to considering as to why is the answer of John 2:4 from Jesus to His mother "seem" to have a tone of less than respectful? Or am I hearing the words wrong when I read them? Also, I believe there is a deeper meaning, first, the mother of Jesus was invited(she was there) and Jesus and the disciples were invited; His mother is the one who speaks up when the wine is gone, and turns to her son, who gives the response I inquire about. Yes, I believe there is a good word to be revealed.
Joh 2:4
(ASV) And Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
(CLV) And Jesus is saying to her, "What is it to Me and to thee, woman! Not as yet is My hour arriving."
(KJV) Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
(Rotherham) And Jesus saith unto her—What part can I take with thee, O woman? Not yet, hath come, mine hour.
(RYLT-NT) Jesus said to her, 'What -- to me and to you, woman? not yet is mine hour come.'
(WNT) "Leave the matter in my hands," He replied; "the time for me to act has not yet come."
(YLT) Jesus saith to her, `What--to me and to thee, woman? not yet is mine hour come.'
Peace and Love Through Jesus
I see it as Jesus not wanting to make a scene, what do you want woman. The typical response from a son being haggled by his mother.
Quote from: thinktank on November 19, 2010, 07:11:43 AM
I see it as Jesus not wanting to make a scene, what do you want woman. The typical response from a son being haggled by his mother.
Yeah ok, but we are not talking about "the typical son" are we? At least I dont feel that Jesus is a typical son. But thanks.
I agree with you Micah, this part always sounded strange to me.
What does it mean?
There's also the fact that Jesus did the miracle anyway, so this answer MUST have a higher meaning.
TCB John 2:4 Then Yesu said to her, "What do you want with Me, woman? My hour hasn't yet arrived."
They where in need of wine. At the Last Supper Jesus said the wine was His blood.
Maybe He was just saying it wasn't Last Supper yet.
:dontknow:
It may be that it is simply Jesus' manner of speaking, he has said before to others similar sorts of things; "O ye of little faith, how long will I put up with you" (I don't recall the exact phrase and verse, but you get what I mean).
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 19, 2010, 07:33:50 AM
Quote from: thinktank on November 19, 2010, 07:11:43 AM
I see it as Jesus not wanting to make a scene, what do you want woman. The typical response from a son being haggled by his mother.
Yeah ok, but we are not talking about "the typical son" are we? At least I dont feel that Jesus is a typical son. But thanks.
Yes, but he did live a pretty normal life. It's not like he was brought up in a royal palace or something. I find it amazing that God enjoys the simple things in life, I'm glad he's not shallow like us human beings and loves the meek and the lowly :cloud9:
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 20, 2010, 06:19:06 PM
TCB John 2:4 Then Yesu said to her, "What do you want with Me, woman? My hour hasn't yet arrived."
They where in need of wine. At the Last Supper Jesus said the wine was His blood.
Maybe He was just saying it wasn't Last Supper yet.
:dontknow:
I understand the number six is the number of man, and is for Adam/man. The pots were for washings/purifying (law) which had 2 or 3 firkins; 2 is the number of witness and 3 is the number of completness. There was a happening (witness)and there would be a completness, yet with partial understanding.
Jesus said fill the water pots with water and they filled them to the brim, here we have complete filling to the brim which represents a complete work, but the washing of the water(law) was past and a new washing was presenting Himself. The wine, the best wine was now offered to the Governor (leader/religion) and represents the cleansing power of the Blood of Jesus. The washing water is changed to wine(blood) the cleansing power of the Blood of the Lamb. The cleansing and regeneration, the renewing for the new man.
Peace and Love Through Jesus
It's great to see this hunger you have for Christ micah, you seem to have grown a lot over the last month or so, may Christ in you keep up the good work within you :thumbsup:
I thank you TT, yet(and I will remain humble) this is not a word He revealed to me just now, the wine and the servants and the witness was given many years ago. My main quest was why does the response of Jesus to His mother "sound" so cold or indifferent?
I think he gave the reason in his speech
"mine hour in not yet come"
Hardening his heart against his mother. Another example is the samaritan woman, Jesus calls her a dog. I think he was hardening his heart towards her, for he was only sent to the lost tribe of Israel and did not want to be distracted from that mission.
He called her a puppy actually, she called herself a cur (a mean word for dog).
I don't think he was hardening his heart, so much as perhaps being playful. It just came across to me as playful first time I read it long ago anyway. :2c:
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 21, 2010, 03:10:51 AM
I thank you TT, yet(and I will remain humble) this is not a word He revealed to me just now, the wine and the servants and the witness was given many years ago. My main quest was why does the response of Jesus to His mother "sound" so cold or indifferent?
Is there not a possibility that this was a normal way to answer to a woman?
Somehow we see disrespect where there would be respect in jewish culture?
Quote from: thinktank on November 21, 2010, 03:45:16 AM
I think he gave the reason in his speech
"mine hour in not yet come"
Hardening his heart against his mother. Another example is the samaritan woman, Jesus calls her a dog. I think he was hardening his heart towards her, for he was only sent to the lost tribe of Israel and did not want to be distracted from that mission.
As for me, I will contend that you my friend as well as Lefien are not in the ball park in the thought. Im sorry thats just me.
No worries
The problem with text, and writ - is that they don't record tone of voice.
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 20, 2010, 11:04:29 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 20, 2010, 06:19:06 PM
TCB John 2:4 Then Yesu said to her, "What do you want with Me, woman? My hour hasn't yet arrived."
They where in need of wine. At the Last Supper Jesus said the wine was His blood.
Maybe He was just saying it wasn't Last Supper yet.
:dontknow:
I understand the number six is the number of man, and is for Adam/man. The pots were for washings/purifying (law) which had 2 or 3 firkins; 2 is the number of witness and 3 is the number of completness. There was a happening (witness)and there would be a completness, yet with partial understanding.
Jesus said fill the water pots with water and they filled them to the brim, here we have complete filling to the brim which represents a complete work, but the washing of the water(law) was past and a new washing was presenting Himself. The wine, the best wine was now offered to the Governor (leader/religion) and represents the cleansing power of the Blood of Jesus. The washing water is changed to wine(blood) the cleansing power of the Blood of the Lamb. The cleansing and regeneration, the renewing for the new man.
Peace and Love Through Jesus
:cloud9: :thumbsup: Think about the 6 days since Adam also, and waters speaking of peoples. The 7th day is Christ. Blessings....
Quote from: Lefein on November 21, 2010, 03:48:46 AM
He called her a puppy actually, she called herself a cur (a mean word for dog).
The word used to mean: watch-dog or shepherd's dog. Sounds better to me.
Quote from: Quaesitor on November 21, 2010, 04:28:39 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 21, 2010, 03:10:51 AM
I thank you TT, yet(and I will remain humble) this is not a word He revealed to me just now, the wine and the servants and the witness was given many years ago. My main quest was why does the response of Jesus to His mother "sound" so cold or indifferent?
Is there not a possibility that this was a normal way to answer to a woman?
Woman was often used as a "title". Like lady.
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 21, 2010, 08:20:51 AM
Quote from: Quaesitor on November 21, 2010, 04:28:39 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 21, 2010, 03:10:51 AM
I thank you TT, yet(and I will remain humble) this is not a word He revealed to me just now, the wine and the servants and the witness was given many years ago. My main quest was why does the response of Jesus to His mother "sound" so cold or indifferent?
Is there not a possibility that this was a normal way to answer to a woman?
Woman was often used as a "title". Like lady.
I will question that woman as a title.
Some commentaries linked to that verse:
7 sn The term Woman is Jesus' normal, polite way of addressing women (Mat 15:28; Luk 13:12; Joh 4:21; Joh 8:10; Joh 19:26; Joh 20:15). But it is unusual for a son to address his mother with this term. The custom in both Hebrew (or Aramaic) and Greek would be for a son to use a qualifying adjective or title. Is there significance in Jesus' use here? It probably indicates that a new relationship existed between Jesus and his mother once he had embarked on his public ministry. He was no longer or primarily only her son, but the "Son of Man." This is also suggested by the use of the same term in Joh 19:26 in the scene at the cross, where the beloved disciple is "given" to Mary as her "new" son.
That it was ordinary with the Jews, speaking to women, to call them by the name of their sex, is plain from Mat 15:28 Luk 13:12 Luk 22:57 Joh 4:21. But that, speaking to their relations, they were wont to own their relation in their compellation, sometimes is also evident, from 1Ki 2:20, Ask on, my mother. So as our Saviour's here calling the blessed virgin, Woman, not mother, is agreed by most to signify to her, that in this thing he did not own her as his mother, and so clothed with an authority to command him. And indeed so much the next words (what have I to do with thee?) signify, which is a form of speech that both signifies some displeasure for her unseasonable interrupting him, and also that she had no right nor authority upon him in this thing. See the use of the same phrase, Jud 11:12 2Sa 16:10 Ezr 4:3 Mat 8:29 27:19. None was more obedient and respective to his parents than our Saviour, Luk 2:51, therein fulfilling the will of God, Jer 35:13,14; but in the business of his calling he regarded them not, Mat 12:48 Luk 2:49; and hath hereby taught us our duty, to prefer our obedience to our heavenly Father before our obedience to any earthly relation, Mat 5:37 Luk 14:26. He hath also hereby taught us, that the blessed virgin is not to be preferred before her Son (as the papists do). Besides this, our Lord giveth another reason for his not present hearkening to his mother,
mine hour is not yet come; either, because the time was not yet come to work miracles publicly; or to show her, that she was not to prescribe the time to him when he should work miraculously; thereby also showing us, that for things in this life we are to submit our desires to the Divine will, and to wait God's leisure; yet by this expression he also gives her some hopes that he would in his own time supply this want.
Woman. Implying no severity nor disrespect. Compare Joh 20:13, 15. It was a highly respectful and affectionate mode of address.
What have I to do with thee [τι εμοι και σοι] . Literally, what is there to me and to thee. See on Mr 5:7, and compare Mt 8:29; Mt 27:19; Mr 1:24; Luk 8:28. It occurs often in the Old Testament, 2Sa 16:10; 1Ki 17:18, etc. Though in a gentle and affectionate manner, Jesus rejects her interference, intending to supply the demand in His own way. Compare Joh 6:6. Wyc., What to me and to thee, thou woman ?
Mine hour is not yet come. Compare Joh 8:20; Joh 12:23; Joh 13:1. In every case the coming of the hour indicates some crisis in the personal life of the Lord, more commonly His passion. Here the hour of His Messianic manifestation (ver. 11).
Woman (γυνα). Vocative case of γυνη, and with no idea of censure as is plain from its use by Jesus in 19:26. But the use of γυνα instead of μητερ (Mother) does show her she can no longer exercise maternal authority and not at all in his Messianic work. That is always a difficult lesson for mothers and fathers to learn, when to let go.
Woman, what have I do to with thee? These words in our language sound harsh and almost rude, but the term rendered woman was respectful and gentle (Joh 19:26). This language, partly a rebuke, to Mary, shows very plainly that the Catholic fiction of Mary being immaculate, the "Queen of Heaven," and "the Mother of God," is all nonsensical.
Mine hour is not yet come. The hour of his full manifestation, as the divine King of Israel.
4, 5. Woman—no term of disrespect in the language of that day (Joh 19:26).
what . . . to do with thee—that is, "In my Father's business I have to do with Him only." It was a gentle rebuke for officious interference, entering a region from which all creatures were excluded (compare Acts 4:19; Acts 4:20).
mine hour, c.—hinting that He would do something, but at His own time and so she understood it (Joh 2:5).
Verse 4. Woman. This term, as used here, seems to imply reproof, as if she was interfering in that which did not properly concern her; but it is evident that no such reproof or disrespect was intended by the use of the term woman instead of mother. It is the same term by which he tenderly addressed Mary Magdalene after his resurrection (Jn 20:15), and his mother when he was on the cross, Jn 19:26. Comp. also Matt 15:28; John 4:21; 1Cor 7:16.
What have I to do with thee? Mt 8:29. This expression is sometimes used to denote indignation or contempt. See Judg 11:12; Judg 11:2; 1Kgs 17:18. But it is not probable that it denoted either in this place; if it did, it was a mild reproof of Mary for attempting to control or direct him in his power of working miracles. Most of the ancients supposed this to be the intention of Jesus. The words sound to us harsh, but they might have been spoken in a tender manner, and not have been intended as a reproof. It is clear that he did not intend to refuse to provide wine, but only to delay it a little; and the design was, therefore, to compose the anxiety of Mary, and to prevent her being solicitous about it. It may, then, be thus expressed: "My mother, be not anxious. To you and to me this
should not be a matter of solicitude. The proper
time of my interfering has not yet come. When that
is come I will furnish a supply, and in the
meantime neither you nor I should be solicitous."
Thus understood, it is so far from being a harsh reproof, that it was a mild exhortation for her to dismiss her fears and to put proper trust in him.
Mine hour, &c. My time. The proper time for my interposing. Perhaps the wine was not yet entirely exhausted. The wine had begun to fail, but he would not work a miracle until it was entirely gone, that the miracle might be free from all possibility of suspicion. It does not mean that the proper time for his working a miracle, or entering on his public work had not come, but that the proper time for his interposing there had not arrived.
I wish now that I had not used the word disrespect. I really did not mean disrespect, it has caused me greif. What I am trying to confer is that the conversation just seems odd to my ears as an American, to hear a son call his mother woman. It is not, I do not believe an act of disrespect, but still there is an oddity to the happening.
Joh 2:3 and wine having failed, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, `Wine they have not;'
Joh 2:4 Jesus saith to her, `What--to me and to thee, woman? not yet is mine hour come.'
Joh 2:5 His mother saith to the ministrants, `Whatever he may say to you--do.'
The wine ran out, they turn to the mother of Jesus (why her?) and she turns to her son Jesus( who we know has not done anything out of the ordinary, like and miracle, for if He had we would not read Joh 2:11 This beginning of the signs did Jesus in Cana of Galilee,.."
Still the retort.
Fenton translation seems reasonable and I am more at ease with it. "4 jesus, in reply to her, said : ' What is that to you and My, mother? My time has not yet come}
Fenton? Never heard of that? URL plz
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 21, 2010, 09:41:58 AM
Fenton? Never heard of that? URL plz
I left this on the eternity post it is pretty good on eternity and also has the Farrar Fenton translation. Should it not get you there, get back to me...I get you covered one way or well Ill get ya. www.thetencommandmentsministry.us/ministry/free_bible/whence_eternity