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Now Im not trying to disprove the bible in any way, but Im wondering if everything that happened in the bible is necessarily an historical event or some of it being allegory with the purpose of representing a greater truth.  I've been told that the story of Adam and Eve is not necessarily an historical event, but an allegory for how man fell into sin at some point in history, due to a lie from the evil one.  Plus I am well aware of the fact that many stories, such as The Creation, the Fall, Noahs Ark, and the tower of Babel are very similar to some Near Eastern Myths, from Gilgamesh.  Plus many civilizations believed in some type of myth based on an area in ruin, like Sodom and Gomorrah.  Then I have been told that the Book of Joshua was not necessarily an historical event, but a story with truth to it.  Im not making any claims.

It's both!

But much less historical than many would like to believe.  It's how God planned it!   :thumbsup:

Paul

I appreciate the way you've framed this UC.  It's a tricky topic, and IMO, you've stated it well.  IMO, there's no need to not let the thread stand as is, but anyone wanting to post in it, please keep in mind TM's default setting regarding the scriptures.  

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7383.0

This still leaves room for legitimate discussions and wonderings, albeit with much discretion and discernment.

Also, please don't take personal offense if it's moderated heavily, because it could be, dependent upon the direction it takes.  The decision was made a long time ago that the admin would not let things even approach the level of strife and contention that existed before on the boards - especially with certain topics - and this could turn into one of 'em.   :bigGrin:   Thanks.

I trust 100 percent of what the Lord has set in Holy Scriptures as The Way, The Truth and The Life.

Galatians 4:21-5:1 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, are you not hearing the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, one out of the maid and one out of the free womam.
23 But the one, indeed, out of the maid is begotten according to flesh, yet the one out of the free woman through the promise:
24 which is allegorizing, for these women are two covenants; one, indeed, from mount Sinai, generating into slavery, which is Hagar.
25 Yet Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia; it is in line with the Jerusalem which now is, for she is in slavery with her children.
26 Yet the Jerusalem above is free, who is mother of us all.
27 For it is written, "Be glad, barren one, who art not bringing forth! Burst forth and implore, thou who art not travailing! For many are the children of the desolate, Rather than of her who has the husband."
28 Now you, brethren, as Isaac, are children of promise.
29 But even as then, the one generated according to flesh persecuted the one according to spirit, thus also it is now.
30 But what is the scripture saying? Cast out this maid and her son, for by no means shall the son of the maid be enjoying the allotment with the son of the free woman.
31 Wherefore, brethren, we are not children of the maid, but of the free woman.
1 For freedom Christ frees us! Stand firm, then, and be not again enthralled with the yoke of slavery.

This passage reveals that the historical person Abraham (representing God) had two sons, the historical Ishmael (representing attempting to attain the the presence of the voice and approval of God in one's life by a disciplined path, specially by learning Scripture better and trying harder) and historical Issac (representing the freely given work of God, His gracious showing up and showing off in one's life.)  These two sons are from two historical women, Hagar and Sarah which in turn represent two historical covenants as well as two actual physically existing mountains (mountains represent kingdoms.)

Notice in the following passage from Hebrews how the difference between sons with a lawful inheritance and bastards, who are sons of the same Father, yet do not qualify as heirs, is determined by different mothers, the two women mentioned above, Hagar and Sarah.  The mother is the soul that concieves, a kingdom with certain laws in operation, and can even represent a group like a church.  What "Ecclesia" you are a part of makes a big difference.  " 15 Are you not aware that your bodies are members of Christ? Taking, then, the members of Christ away, should I be making them members of a prostitute? May it not be coming to that!  Or are you not aware that he who joins a prostitute is one body? For, He is averring, the two will be one flesh.  Now he who joins the Lord is one spirit." (1 Co 6:15-17, CLT)

Hebrews 12:3-11 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
3 For take into account the One Who has endured such contradiction by sinners while among them, lest you should be faltering, fainting in your souls.
4 Not as yet unto blood did you repulse, when contending against sin.
5 And you have been oblivious of the entreaty which is arguing with you as with sons: My son, do not disdain the discipline of the Lord, Nor yet faint when being exposed by Him.
6 For whom the Lord is loving He is disciplining, Yet He is scourging every son to whom He is assenting.
7 For discipline are you enduring. As to sons is God bringing it to you, for what son is there whom the father is not disciplining?
8 Now if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, consequently you are bastards and not sons.
9 Thereafter, indeed, we had the fathers of our flesh as discipliners, and we respected them. Yet shall we not much rather be subjected to the Father of spirits and be living.
10 For these, indeed, disciplined for a few days as it seemed best to them, yet that One for our expedience, for us to be partaking of His holiness.
11 Now all discipline, indeed, for the present is not seeming to be a thing of joy, but of sorrow, yet subsequently it is rendering the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those exercised through it.

2 Corintians 11:1-3 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
1 Would that you had borne with any little imprudence of mine! Nay, and be bearing with me,
2 for I am jealous over you with a jealousy of God. For I betroth you to one Man, to present a chaste virgin to Christ.
3 Yet I fear lest somehow, as the serpent deludes Eve by its craftiness, your apprehensions should be corrupted from the singleness and pureness which is in Christ.

Our own lives are to be allegories that play out the truth of God and the gospel by which we are saved.

I think everything described is an historical event.
Assuming:
a] No copy/translation errors.
b] Correct interpretation.

Sofar no archeological finds contradicted the Bible.
If you look on Amazon you can find $0.75 books on archeolgy and the Bible.


Same for science. Yeah, science seems to point more and more to a creator. There might have been a time science might have pointed towards no Creator. But more 'recently' the loose ends seems to tie to a creator...

QuotePlus many civilizations believed in some type of myth based on an area in ruin, like Sodom and Gomorrah.

There is more proof on Sodom and it's 4 sister cities than just the Bible. It's found in Egyptian records also. The wealth of the cities came from selling tar to Egypt.

The Bible reports Joshua's longest day. Chinese books report the longest night (other timezone)
Chinese books (and others) also report a Flood story with their own hero's in it.

   I think it is not only historically accurate...

   I think it is presently accuarate[I have to but look around to see His word being fulfilled]

  and futurely accurate


        Sheila

Amen Sister Sheila.

 :thumbsup:   Brotha!

Quote from: Universalist Catholic on March 20, 2010, 09:21:30 PM
Now Im not trying to disprove the bible in any way, but Im wondering if everything that happened in the bible is necessarily an historical event or some of it being allegory with the purpose of representing a greater truth.  I've been told that the story of Adam and Eve is not necessarily an historical event, but an allegory for how man fell into sin at some point in history, due to a lie from the evil one.  Plus I am well aware of the fact that many stories, such as The Creation, the Fall, Noahs Ark, and the tower of Babel are very similar to some Near Eastern Myths, from Gilgamesh.  Plus many civilizations believed in some type of myth based on an area in ruin, like Sodom and Gomorrah.  Then I have been told that the Book of Joshua was not necessarily an historical event, but a story with truth to it.  Im not making any claims.

I think it's both.  There are some stories that I do think are in fact allegories that are used to convey some spiritual meaning.  There are also other stories which described "historical events" but these too are also crafted to convey meaning.  I would compare to a modern day movie which tells about a real event.  Take Rudy for example.  The story that is portrayed in the movie is in fact true and is based on true events yet the writers crafted the story in order to convey certain messages.  True this includes some level of embelishment but by no means does that mean that we should just chuck to whole story out.  So to put is simply, I believe that Scripture is a wonderful mix of history, allegory, and metaphor but it's most important function is the fact that it points us to Christ. 

I think where people err is on the interpretation of the Bible...

example:

many believe that the earth was literally created in 6 days
evidence we find from fossils like Dinosaurs "disprove" this thinking as we have evidence that the earth has existed for a long long time already...that there was a thriving living world long before mankind was even placed here

BUT...this is where the interpretation part comes in...
God also tells us in the Bible that "one day is like a thousand years to Him and a thousand years like one day"
this for me explains a lot

so I'd say we always have to factor in the "facts on the ground" with belief

I agree noname.
If you lookup the Hebrew word that day was translated from you will see it can have many different timespans.
According Jewish scholars it's very clear God changed the calendar when Adam was created.
A calendar of old that reaches back 5 'days' and the new calendar starts with Adam. Normal 24-hour days.
I don't know what verse is supposed to inform us of the change of the calendars.

Unfortunately the debate between Biblical interpretation and science has closed the minds of both camps.
Christians often seem to think science is a trick of satan to steal God (creational) glory.
I think science doesn't take away teh slightest bit of glory.
Yeah, when abused and misapplied it does. But Christianity is guilty of the same thing.
Neither the Bible or science is wrong but many interpretations (to push an agenda) are wrong.

Quote from: WhiteWings on March 23, 2010, 11:09:14 AM
Unfortunately the debate between Biblical interpretation and science has closed the minds of both camps.
Christians often seem to think science is a trick of satan to steal God (creational) glory.
I think science doesn't take away teh slightest bit of glory.

I agree...what is science anyway but the discovery of the laws of Nature which are already there?...and always have been since the beginning

Quote from: noname on March 23, 2010, 01:10:34 PMI agree...what is science anyway but the discovery of the laws of Nature  which are already there?...and always have been since the beginning

That's not really the problem for science. They have a quite good view on what happend when those laws went into effect. Their real problem is how/why it all started.
Basicly it's like this:
The big bang started out of nothing. That part could be right because God created out of nothing. Laws of nature came into effect a fraction of a second after that bigbang started. That nothing has been 'waiting' to explode. But that requires some sort of law to trigger it. But because that nothing has no laws an external trigger is needed. On this forum we all know the name of that trigger... Science is still searching for it :winkgrin:

Quote from: WhiteWings on March 23, 2010, 01:26:58 PM
On this forum we all know the name of that trigger... Science is still searching for it :winkgrin:

hehehe...yes we do... :thumbsup:
many scientists are now abandoning the big bang theory and "evolving" to the "intelligent design theory"...where they acknowledge that a certain "force" must have "lit the match" so to speak for creation to get started

as an applied scientist myself this have been evident all along...the example that comes to mind is that you just cannot throw a few metals into the desert and after a 1000 years it "evolved" into a Rolex...there had to be someone who Engineered it all

Quotethe example that comes to mind is that you just cannot throw a few metals into the desert and after a 1000 years it "evolved" into a Rolex

I heard that one as dump metal and plastic in a desert. Wait for a hurricane to assemble it into a fully functional 747. That the chance of "just lucky" we speak about.

But even if metal can evolve into a Rolex the mystery is: According to what law?
And if that question is answered: where did that law originate from?

Quotemany scientists are now abandoning the big bang theory and "evolving" to the "intelligent design theory"...

Never heard about that one. Seen several alternatives like steady state and ?? forgot the name (expands, contracts, expands, ...) and the plasma theory. But all of them bump into (other) problems.

And unwantingly science proved eternal can exist. And because of the nature of eternal a birth/creation moment of that eternal person/object is not needed.
You know the other half of the time dimension. And a few extra ones.
Just find a pattern to jump timelines and it's always holiday  :winkgrin:

Quote from: WhiteWings on March 23, 2010, 01:58:32 PM
Just find a pattern to just timelines and it's always holiday  :winkgrin:

hahaha...been searching for that one all my life :laughing7:

It is true that much of the bible is symbolic, and should not be taken literally. 

Quote from: Universalist Catholic on March 24, 2010, 09:03:23 PM
It is true that much of the bible is symbolic, and should not be taken literally.

What's much? Most of it? Almost all of it? 10%? 50%? 90%?

Imo everything in it is symbolic like a parable. It points to deeper meanings etc.
But I think most things are also literal.
It all seems to be historical correct. (at least the things I was able to check)
The only book that's 'out of place' is Revelation. (parts like earthquakes and wormwood might be (also) literal)
:2c: <-- my tithe in this topic

A word I've shared here several times:
________________________________

The Bible, being a book of WORDS, is entirely symbolical! The letters "c-h-a-i-r" cannot be sat upon. They cast a SPELL in your consciousness to conjure up the awareness of a "chair." Depending on the extent of your development, as far as what Scripture produces in you (though more practically what the occasion calls for) this can evoke a carnal or worldly emphasis in an outer court interpretation of something for your body to _sit_ in; or, it may cause a thought of a psychological abstraction, a position in relation to a collegial body (corresponding to the holy place,) like the _chair_man of a department; or, something more spiritual in nature (the third realm of the tabernacle in analogy,) like what the implications are when God makes us who were dead to be alive and awakened "and _seats_ us together among the celestials (or, in the heavenlies,) in Christ Jesus..." (Eph 2:6)

Words are symbols; hence, the Bible, being a book of words, is entirely a book of symbols. There are various legitimate understandings of these symbols or words. Like the largely time oriented interpretations of the Book of Revelation: historicist, preterist, futurist, which are more literalist, and as well there are several ideal or spiritual interpretations:  symbolic, personal and corporate allegoric, and mystical or psychological -- all have some validity without being "the last word" on the meaning of the text. While we know what is meant by a "literal" interpretation, there can actually only be interpretation since we are dealing completely with symbols. I believe in each letter and every word of the original as directly God inspired.

James, I've missed that before, thanks for sharing that again. Nice.

In the beginning was the logos...... the logos is the word/expressed thought of God including all things from Alpha to Omega

All things were created through Him.....    Jesus incorporates all the fulness from Alpha to Omega, physical and spiritual (for so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in Him)

He is the radiance of the Fathers glory and express image of His nature and all things hold together by the word of His power....

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.........  He is why a proton doesn't spin off of an electron, His creative word is the cohesive force in everything and the source of consciousness in everyone. As the living word He is the only one who can reveal the word and "make it alive."

His eyes are as flames of fire and a two edged sword comes out of His mouth.....
On His thigh written "the word of God faithful and true"......

For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.


The primary purpose of the word is to "open us".

The letter kills but the spirit gives life. The letter "closes us"

But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.



Creation begins with opening, followed by implanting, followed by transformation- A broken and a contrite heart is open. The pure in spirit will see God. This is about humility.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void(mixture), and darkness was over the surface of the deep(carnality), and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters(stirring up by way of reminder). Then God said, "Let there be light"(understanding); and there was light. God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness(discernment).
(Gen 1:1-4)

And on this mountain(seated in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus) He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples, Even the veil which is stretched over all nations.
The restitution of all things. Salvation flows from Zion.

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.


In the last days the mountain of the Lord will ascend above all the other mountains.

Many nations will come and say, "Come and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD And to the house of the God of Jacob, That He may teach us about His ways And that we may walk in His paths." For from Zion will go forth the law, Even the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Mt. Zion is the joy of the whole earth.

They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD As the waters cover the sea.

"Is it not indeed from the LORD of hosts That peoples toil for fire, And nations grow weary for nothing? "For the earth will be filled With the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, As the waters cover the sea.


It is the veils that we wear, not any deficiency in the scriptures(properly translated), that limits our understanding. The scriptures are the book of remembrance of the works and the words prepared from the foundation of the world that we should walk in them. When we remember what they mean by the stirring of the spirit and the living active sword of the Spirit we are re-created by them.
It is as we press into Him that the veils are removed.

For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and your love for all the saints, do not cease giving thanks for you, while making mention of you in my prayers; that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him. I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
(Eph 1:15-23)

 Amen.  :thumbsup:

3For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.  4For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:  5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.  Hebrews . .

1 Corinthians 10 says . .
1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;  2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;  3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;  4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.  5But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.  6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. . . .
10Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

11Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come

I'm one that believes God would not mislead us with false happenings to instill spiritual truths.  The lineage of man goes back to the origin of man.  We started someplace.  We have an origin.  On another thread, I read last night, Molly stated something I found really interesting when dealing with the origin of man and how people of science want to claim we descended from apes.  It never occurred to me that even in the language they use, they put us "below" apes in that we didn't "ascend" from them, but we've "descended". 

The carnal mind will always strong-arm the created man "under" it's rule if we allow it.  I am not a descended being.  I am an ascended being.  I think that was one of the main reasons why Jesus "did" stay around for another 40 days.  One was to show those he loved that the resurrection was not a trick, he really did overcome death.  And two, that he is of an ascended nature and we have that same nature in us. 

Trying to prove there's is literally an ark of Noah still buried out there in the Ararat mountain range won't increase my faith at all.  Because flesh profiteth nothing.  It's not about proving the natural side of the stories really took place.  I "believe" they did, because God makes it clear he used people and their experiences to lay his spiritual principles for their descendants to identify, relate to and learn from.

I've really enjoyed this thread.

Quote from: NathanThe carnal mind will always strong-arm the created man "under" it's rule if we allow it.

Morpheus: The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it

--The Matrix



43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

--Mat 5

The scriptures reflect glory when we, in the fellowship of the Spirit, with unveiled faces, look into them for glory. They are the witness of His glory.

Jesus, on the mountain of temptation said, Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.

Everyday God is speaking, the scriptures are provided as a witness.

Today, if you hear His voice.

The rain falls on the just and the unjust, the seed bears fruit as the earth nourishes the evil and the good, and His faithfulness is manifest as the sun rises each morning.

His glory is seen as the stars shine every night and we know they are there even when clouds obscure their view.

His eternal power and divine nature are clearly seen through the things that are made.

In Him we live and move and have our being.

Psa 19:1  

To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David.


THE HEAVENS declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows and proclaims His handiwork.

Day after day pours forth speech, and night after night shows forth knowledge.

It is not audible speech; their voice is not heard with the ear,

Nevertheless  their witness goes out through all the earth, their sayings to the end of the world.

Of the heavens has God made a tent for the sun, which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber; and it rejoices as a strong man to run his course.

Its going forth is from the end of the heavens, and its circuit to the ends of it; and nothing yes, no one is hidden from the heat of it.

The law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the whole person; the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

The precepts of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the Lord is pure and bright, enlightening the eyes.

The reverent fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever; the ordinances of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.

More to be desired are they than gold, even than much fine gold; they are sweeter also than honey and drippings from the honeycomb.

Moreover, by them is Your servant warned (reminded, illuminated, and instructed); and in keeping them there is great reward.

Who can discern his lapses and errors? Clear me from hidden and unconscious faults.

Keep back Your servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me!

Then shall I be blameless, and I shall be innocent and clear of great transgression.

Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in Your sight, O Lord, my Rock and my Redeemer.

I've also been wondering about the first part of Genesis.  If we were to do a literal count of the Generations from Adam to Abraham, that would mean that people have only inhabitated the earth for 6000 years.  But science seems to think that humans have been on earth for 200,000 years or so.  http://www.askipedia.com/askipedia-article-015001-88.htm  According to science, the earth has been around for 4.5 billion years.  a lot older than 6 literal days.  Plus scientists believe human life began in Africa.  So im wondering if the generations from Adam to Abraham are the literal generations, or symbolic. 

Do you understand that, due to what the Theory of Relativity describes, those on the inside of the "big bang" would experience a different passage of time than observers on the outside?  This has been used to explain the disparity of time.

The Genesis accounts are about the recreation of the earth.  "In beginning God creates the heavens and the earth; and the earth became chaotic 8414 and emptied."
Genesis 1:1-2
1 In the beginning 7225 God 430 created 1254 853 the heaven 8064 and 853 the earth 776.
2And the earth 776 was 1961 without form 8414, and void 922; and darkness 2822 [was] upon the face 6440 of the deep 8415. And the Spirit 7307 of God 430 moved 7363 upon 5921 the face 6440 of the waters 4325.

"void" or, "empty" is the opposite of "inhabited"...

Isaiah 45:18
18 For thus saith 559 the LORD 3068 that created 1254 the heavens 8064; God 430 himself that formed 3335 the earth 776 and made 6213 it; he hath established 3559 it, he created 1254 it not in vain 8414, he formed 3335 it to be inhabited 3427 : I [am] the LORD 3068; and [there is] none else.

H8414 tohu
1) formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness
     a) formlessness (of primeval earth)
          1) nothingness, empty space
     b) that which is empty or unreal (of idols) (fig)
     c) wasteland, wilderness (of solitary places)
     d) place of chaos
     e) vanity

A soft answer to the evolutionist I give is based on the idea that the self-consciousness of man, his keeping records of himself in written language, based on the evidence does not have to be anymore than six thousand (6,000) years old.  I've found Scientists claiming the oldest known historical artifacts of human language to only be nine thousand (9,000) to twelve thousand (12,000) years, maybe fourteen thousand (14,000) years old at the oldest.  That's not much different than six thousand (6,000,) considering the passage of time for our galaxy or the earth.  The numbers are so speculative and nearly the same that it seems the evidence would just as well support the six thousand (6,000) years figure but for one thing only:  it would lend credence to the Biblical record.

Quote from: reFORMer on May 02, 2010, 06:21:51 AM
Do you understand that, due to what the Theory of Relativity describes, those on the inside of the "big bang" would experience a different passage of time than observers on the outside?  

This explains the dinosaurs and other phenomena.
That Adam walked with the Lord for 4-billion years
while the earth was being prepared for man's fall.  

Im a little bit confused.  Then again I dont understand the theory of Relativity. 

I don't either, but reFORMer and David, you've said something very intriguing.  Could you please expound on this at least a little more?  Thanks, James.

 :cloud9: Twenty some years ago, it was on the news that scientists had discovered a problem with the carbon dating, in that the rate of decay changed at a certain point, and if that was true it meant that the age of things had to be adjusted and they figured it about 13 to 14 thousand years. This lined up with some revelation He gave me, so I took it as a confirmation. Blessings....

Quote from: Universalist Catholic on May 02, 2010, 07:13:44 AM
Im a little bit confused.  Then again I dont understand the theory of Relativity. 

Different places different time.
Consider the following experiment. One person watches a clock on earth. One person watches a clock on a planet at the edge of the universe.
Both watch the clock for an hour. Both have the same feeling of time and really feel they watched the clock for 1 hour. They did. But only for the place were they are. The point is if we watch an hour pass on that distant planet it look like a second. But for the people on that planet it really feels like an hour.
So suppose God is sitting on that distant planet. His clock/calendar says 6 days have passed. But that's only so for were He is sitting. Not on eartch were time passes slowly.

So according to Einsteins law of relativity 14 billion year = 6 days depending on the viewing location.
http://www.geraldschroeder.com/AgeUniverse.aspx

Ancient Jewish scholars already noted that God switched calendars somewere around the creation of Adam. Jewish calendars start at Adam not at verse 1:1.

The relativity idea is nice. The book by Shroder about it is nice too. (very readable)
But perhaps the answer is even simpler.
Aion=age.  Lot's op articles and discussions on that on TentMaker.
But there is a similar word for that in Hebrew. Yom
Just like Aion is prefered to be translated as forever Yom is prefered to be translated as day.
But in reality Yom means age.
So God didn't say Day one. But He said age one.
Those ages/Yoms were millions and billions years in length.
But also just 24 hours....

What does it all mean?
Lemme start with a big IMO

Science is right. (not about everything) The universe is billions of years old. So is earth. Dinos, cavemen etc excisted.
They all fit in the first 6 ages.
Roughly at the time when the Bible dates creation of Adam the first signs of civilization start to pop up. So that aligns with secular science.
For example the Bible introduces the bronze age with Tubal-Cain.

But there are also weird things:
Gen 3:17 It sounds like they already knew about pregnacy etc. Even before they experienced it.
Gen 4:14 Cain is send away and is afraid to be killed. Only Adam Eve and their children existed.
Gen 4:17 Cain build a whole city for his wife and child? And... were did his wife came from?

What if Adam isn't really about the very first man? But the very first man that was put in Eden and got contact with God.
Jewish scholars speak of an animal and human soul/spirit.
So my thought is a bit like this:
What if at the time of Adam earth already was inhabited with early humans. But Biblically seen they were still animals. (only animal spirit)
But Adam was the first one to receive the human spirit. And with that he really became the first human.

There is more but I think I've upset people enough for one day  :laughing7:

Quote from: wwWhat if Adam isn't really about the very first man?

Adam doesn't appear on the scene until Genesis 2.  And, he isn't sent out by God to be fruitful and multiply--he's put in a garden to tend and keep it.

Science likes to tell us that people just like us existed for hundreds of thousands or even million years before Adam.  If that's the case, where are the skyscrapers, the science, the engineering, the art, the music, the books, the jokes?  How many Mozarts would appear in a 100,000 years?  How many Tesla's?  How many Pascal's?  Where is the evidence of language before Adam?


It's believed that humans originated about 200,000 years ago in the Middle Paleolithic period in southern Africa.


Really?  Then why has Adam done more in 6000 years than man did in the previous 194,000?


19And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

--Gen 2

It's a bit what you call animal and what you call man.
Was man the first ape that walked semi-upright? If yes that man wouldn't be able to to produce Mozarts and Teslas. Simply because that man had the intelligence of an ape.
The Bible calls the beast man after it received the spirit of humanity/reasoning etc.

All those people you mention are from the last part of the 6000 years.
Science seems to accelerate. Just compare the scientific progress between 1000-1100AD and for example 1900-2000AD.

Now I answered your questions you answer mine. Ok?

  Does any one find it interesting that God made the grass, plants and trees before He brought forth the stars and the sun and the moon?
  It seems to me that either the creation is told in allegorical form, or, since the whole idea of creation involves immense supernatural acts, the plants and trees where held in some kind of stasis field (lol- I'm a big science fiction fan) while the sun and moon and stars were created.
  And since the sun etc weren't created til the fourth day- day does not likely mean 24 hours, at least for the first four days because there were no separations between the times and seasons until the fourth day?
  It is also possible that the processes God used in manifesting creation, being very dynamic forces to say the least, exceed in some ways our ability to carbon date them. Perhaps our scientific measures cannot quantify aionian times, which it seems to me the first four days, at least, were.
  I find it all very interesting, but speculative, and I have no problem with a wide array of views that I have read so far, from actual creation days to days as paleolithic periods- because God is capable of them all. I do believe the genealogies are correct and direct history however. The record of the genealogy of Messiah is intrinsic to the entire Hebrew priesthood, the oracles and promises, etc. If the genealogy is a myth, then the whole book is a myth- and as such, IMO, would be unworthy of spirited discussion and debate concerning doctrine.

I don't want to paste the whole chapter here but,

1 Corinthians 2

speaks to us about such things.
We pray Lord for Your Spirit to open the pages to our understanding.

Quote from: eaglesway on May 02, 2010, 03:42:07 PM
 Does any one find it interesting that God made the grass, plants and trees before He brought forth the stars and the sun and the moon?

He never said He did.
1:8 And God called the curtain heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second era.

The original text doesn't write THE second/third/etc day.
The accounts are not claimed to be chronological.
The era's can also overlap. Right now we still have sun stars, herbs, and beasts.

QuoteIt seems to me that either the creation is told in allegorical form, or, since the whole idea of creation involves immense supernatural acts,

By a God that has the power to do it all in a split second. It took Him a while. Otherwise Gen 1:1 would have been: He cretaed evereyting including Adam. I think thats showing a process.

Quotethe plants and trees where held in some kind of stasis field (lol- I'm a big science fiction fan) while the sun and moon and stars were created.
 And since the sun etc weren't created til the fourth day- day does not likely mean 24 hours, at least for the first four days because there were no separations between the times and seasons until the fourth day?

Ha a fellow SF man :winkgrin:
The sun is a second generation star. That stasis field should have had a big generator because the plants were in stasis a long while  :winkgrin: Not to mention it was kinda chilly without the sun. At those temps anything dies instantly.
There are quite a few Christian authors that show intelligent design in regular science. Hugh Ross is one of them. Personally I see zero attackts, of God by aligning science with the Bible. Didn't He say His hadiworks is in the sky. Well redshift is handiwork too...

QuoteIt is also possible that the processes God used in manifesting creation, being very dynamic forces to say the least, exceed in some ways our ability to carbon date them. Perhaps our scientific measures cannot quantify aionian times, which it seems to me the first four days, at least, were.

I think both evolution and Big Bang is true.
The Big Bang started with nothing. So did God. As for evolution.... Darwins theory is crap. Microscopic life on earth existed almost from the start. Then during the Cambrian explosion suddenly there was a huge varity of life. Just as like God pushed another create button.
Rtc. etc. etc

QuoteI find it all very interesting, but speculative, and I have no problem with a wide array of views that I have read so far, from actual creation days to days as paleolithic periods- because God is capable of them all. I do believe the genealogies are correct and direct history however. The record of the genealogy of Messiah is intrinsic to the entire Hebrew priesthood, the oracles and promises, etc. If the genealogy is a myth, then the whole book is a myth- and as such, IMO, would be unworthy of spirited discussion and debate concerning doctrine.

Erm... I think we can agree that the whole OT focusses on the Jewish people. There where other unmentioned people on earth then. So imo God had/has a script. And the OT just foucusses on the main actors. Are the people mentioned in the genealogy all in the line from Adam to Adam? Or just the main actors? Meaning holes in genealogy. When someone is called a son of Abraham it can also mean Abraham was his grandfather. LXX gives other ages.

As I said earlies it depend when you call a beast a  man. From Father's pov that's late in earth's history. About the time the intelligence of mankind starts to rise quickly.

Quote from: eaglesway on May 02, 2010, 03:42:07 PM
 
  I find it all very interesting, but speculative, and I have no problem with a wide array of views that I have read so far, from actual creation days to days as paleolithic periods- because God is capable of them all. I do believe the genealogies are correct and direct history however.

As you wrote Beloved Servant, may the Lord give us understanding by the Spirit concerning the "hidden wisdom"(1 Cor 2). However this wisdom is a wisdom "the rulers of this age" did not understand- or they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory- which leads me to believe Paul is speaking of the "ways" of God in us more so than the secrets of aionian times. Of course, with a big IMO.
The things written in 1 Corinthians 2 may apply more to the manifesting of the kingdom of God "Today" than to the deciphering of the secrets of aionian times. I have found (and I love those verses, along with the end of Romans 11) that everyone seems to think their particular slant on mystic interpretation  is the "hidden wisdom". Me too, of course- I don't seek to separate myself from being subject to the speculative adventures of the carnal mind.But I personally believe the hidden wisdom is that which leads to the manifestation of the Bride of Christ, coming down(manifesting) out of the heavens(seated with Christ over all P & P)- not these speculative types of gnostic thingies that are interprative and unverifiable.....and definitely fun to talk about.

QuoteWhat if Adam isn't really about the very first man? But the very first man that was put in Eden and got contact with God.

I believe this.

The bible talks about other people...

Genesis 4, This is while Adam and Eve had only had two children, Cain and Abel, also Adam and Eve were living at the base on the mountain of Eden.

14"Behold, You have driven me this day from the face of the ground; and from Your face I will be hidden, and I will be a vagrant and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me."

Who are these people Cain is afraid of?

16Then Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden.

Nod? Who is this Nod? Also, we see here that Cain moved away from Adam and Eve, so he wasn't afraid then it was them who would kill him, then again whom was he afraid of?

17Cain had relations with his wife and she conceived, and gave birth to Enoch; and he built a city, and called the name of the city Enoch, after the name of his son.
18Now to Enoch was born Irad, and Irad became the father of Mehujael, and Mehujael became the father of Methushael, and Methushael became the father of Lamech.
19Lamech took to himself two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other, Zillah.

Who are these womens parents...not Adam and Eve? Also where did Cain find a wife? The only answer that can be surmised from scripture is from the land of Nod.

It was quite clear that there were others walking the planet. These occurances are far from few!


Now, is the bible historically accurate, Yes.

The bible doesn't claim to contain the creation of the universe as it is preached, but what it claims is how the "living people" were started. It is also the history of those people. The people with the spirit of God whom became Living beings."

Genesis 2:Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. 8 The LORD God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed.

The first book, Old Testament, is the story of the generations of Adam.

1This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

--Gen 5



The second book, New Testament, is the story of the generation of Jesus.


1The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
--Mat 1


The whole book is about Jesus.


Psalm 40:7
Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,



And about us.


Revelation 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

I understand, Eaglesway.

Molly, that was great!

Quote from: WhiteWings on May 02, 2010, 09:31:17 AM
What does it all mean?
Lemme start with a big IMO

Science is right. (not about everything) The universe is billions of years old. So is earth. Dinos, cavemen etc excisted.
They all fit in the first 6 ages.
Roughly at the time when the Bible dates creation of Adam the first signs of civilization start to pop up. So that aligns with secular science.
For example the Bible introduces the bronze age with Tubal-Cain.

But there are also weird things:
Gen 3:17 It sounds like they already knew about pregnacy etc. Even before they experienced it.
Gen 4:14 Cain is send away and is afraid to be killed. Only Adam Eve and their children existed.
Gen 4:17 Cain build a whole city for his wife and child? And... were did his wife came from?

There are many speculations which can be made of this (the origin of "Cain's wife"...

That the WORD is silent about it... does not allow us to ADD our "speculations" to it...

As far as "when" Cain was born, this could amount to a hundred, or even more YEARS from the beginning in the Garden -- :dontknow: -- No one knows, and Scripture leaves no clues...

This could potentially account for existant populations elsewhere, and since ONLY speculation can be made of this issue, one speculation is as potentially valid as another, as long as it does not OPPOSE Scripture elsewhere.  And only OFFERED by the one speculating as a mere possibility -- which also admits NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS, and is NOT INTENDED to be believed as TRUTH...

Quote from: WhiteWings on May 02, 2010, 09:31:17 AMWhat if Adam isn't really about the very first man?

As we offer our "speculations"... in order for them to have ANY VALIDITY... they must FIRST, be in line with Scripture (which CLEARLY notes ADAM as the FIRST MAN -- 1 Cor 15:45)

The Scriptures -- 1 Cor 15:47 -- note the FIRST man is NATURAL and OF THE EARTH... and the Scripture (as noted above), clearly states that ADAM was the FIRST MAN -- 1 Cor 15:45 -- which SOWED DISHONOR [Sin which brought forth DEATH] and through which SIN entered the World, as well as DEATH -- Rom 5:12-19

Quote from: WhiteWings on May 02, 2010, 09:31:17 AMWhat if at the time of Adam earth already was inhabited with early humans. But Biblically seen they were still animals. (only animal spirit)
But Adam was the first one to receive the human spirit. And with that he really became the first human.

There is no SCRIPTURAL basis for this conjecture... One can say anything... but one must also be careful not to ADD to what is clearly stated...

Why would God create "MEN" which had an "animal spirit"?  Science will resort to this being APES --- and then lay out the theory of Evolution from such a proposal.

The WORD does not offer any such allusion (at least that I have come across)... nor does such a speculation rhyme with what is CLEARLY stated in the Bible concerning ADAM as being the FIRST MAN... (again, at least as much as I have come across!)

Quote from: WhiteWings on May 02, 2010, 09:31:17 AMIt would be interesting if you or another involved in this discussion.

There is more but I think I've upset people enough for one day  :laughing7:

Hey bro... anyone should have the right to speak, without others getting upset about it.  :wink1:

Quote from: willieH on May 03, 2010, 06:09:04 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on May 02, 2010, 09:31:17 AM
What does it all mean?
Lemme start with a big IMO

Science is right. (not about everything) The universe is billions of years old. So is earth. Dinos, cavemen etc excisted.
They all fit in the first 6 ages.
Roughly at the time when the Bible dates creation of Adam the first signs of civilization start to pop up. So that aligns with secular science.
For example the Bible introduces the bronze age with Tubal-Cain.

But there are also weird things:
Gen 3:17 It sounds like they already knew about pregnacy etc. Even before they experienced it.
Gen 4:14 Cain is send away and is afraid to be killed. Only Adam Eve and their children existed.
Gen 4:17 Cain build a whole city for his wife and child? And... were did his wife came from?

There are many speculations which can be made of this (the origin of "Cain's wife"...

That the WORD is silent about it... does not allow us to ADD our "speculations" to it...

As far as "when" Cain was born, this could amount to a hundred, or even more YEARS from the beginning in the Garden -- :dontknow: -- No one knows, and Scripture leaves no clues...

This could potentially account for existant populations elsewhere, and since ONLY speculation can be made of this issue, one speculation is as potentially valid as another, as long as it does not OPPOSE Scripture elsewhere.  And only OFFERED by the one speculating as a mere possibility -- which also admits NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS, and is NOT INTENDED to be believed as TRUTH...

Quote from: WhiteWings on May 02, 2010, 09:31:17 AMWhat if Adam isn't really about the very first man?

As we offer our "speculations"... in order for them to have ANY VALIDITY... they must FIRST, be in line with Scripture (which CLEARLY notes ADAM as the FIRST MAN -- 1 Cor 15:45)

The Scriptures -- 1 Cor 15:47 -- note the FIRST man is NATURAL and OF THE EARTH... and the Scripture (as noted above), clearly states that ADAM was the FIRST MAN -- 1 Cor 15:45 -- which SOWED DISHONOR [Sin which brought forth DEATH] and through which SIN entered the World, as well as DEATH -- Rom 5:12-19

Quote from: WhiteWings on May 02, 2010, 09:31:17 AMWhat if at the time of Adam earth already was inhabited with early humans. But Biblically seen they were still animals. (only animal spirit)
But Adam was the first one to receive the human spirit. And with that he really became the first human.

There is no SCRIPTURAL basis for this conjecture... One can say anything... but one must also be careful not to ADD to what is clearly stated...

Why would God create "MEN" which had an "animal spirit"?  Science will resort to this being APES --- and then lay out the theory of Evolution from such a proposal.

The WORD does not offer any such allusion (at least that I have come across)... nor does such a speculation rhyme with what is CLEARLY stated in the Bible concerning ADAM as being the FIRST MAN... (again, at least as much as I have come across!)

Quote from: WhiteWings on May 02, 2010, 09:31:17 AMIt would be interesting if you or another involved in this discussion.

There is more but I think I've upset people enough for one day  :laughing7:

Hey bro... anyone should have the right to speak, without others getting upset about it.  :wink1:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Well spoken!


Paul

willieH: Hi UC... :hithere:

I kind of jumped into this discussion at the tail end... but thought it would be appropriate to answer the OP...  :mblush:

Quote from: Universalist Catholic on March 20, 2010, 09:21:30 PM
Now Im not trying to disprove the bible in any way, but Im wondering if everything that happened in the bible is necessarily an historical event or some of it being allegory with the purpose of representing a greater truth.

The WORDS of God are SPIRITUAL... irregardless of whether they are or are not, an actual historical report.  There is SPIRITUAL allegory and truth which lies within them, even if some were actual historical occurences and/or, some were not.

Quote from: Universalist Catholic on March 20, 2010, 09:21:30 PMI've been told that the story of Adam and Eve is not necessarily an historical event, but an allegory for how man fell into sin at some point in history, due to a lie from the evil one.  Plus I am well aware of the fact that many stories, such as The Creation, the Fall, Noahs Ark, and the tower of Babel are very similar to some Near Eastern Myths, from Gilgamesh.

Man BEGAN somewhere, somewhen, ...why not at the beginning? And why not actually as reported in Genesis?  :dontknow:

IMO -- Those who reach for the Creation to be strictly an "allegory", seem to be reaching for something to grasp, when something is already there to grasp...  :wacko2:

Quote from: Universalist Catholic on March 20, 2010, 09:21:30 PMPlus many civilizations believed in some type of myth based on an area in ruin, like Sodom and Gomorrah.  Then I have been told that the Book of Joshua was not necessarily an historical event, but a story with truth to it.  Im not making any claims.

That there is evidence in various cultures of such ancient tales as Noah's Ark or Sodom & Gomorrah, screams of an ECHO to an actual event, as opposed to a myth...  :idea2:

A myth, is usually unique and not commonly shared by several INDEPENDENT cultures...

An actual "event" which is COMMONLY "legendary" (due to lack of documentation and is shared by several UNCOMMICATIVE cultures), is pretty strong proof (though it cannot be "proven"  :laughing7:) that said "event" ...actually took place...  :nod:

:Peace:

1 Cor 15:45

The first man Adam...


Adam

G76
Αδάμ
"Adam"
ad-am'
Of Hebrew origin [H121]; Adam, the first man; typically (of Jesus) man (as his representative): - Adam.

Amen Willie.
    Great way of putting it. We should accept the testimony of the oracles and relate to the myths as the echoes. Whether we fully understand the oracles or not, there is no substance in the echoes. If all scripture is God breathed, I have a field in which to dig for the treasure. Just a few verses that encourage me to dig and not grow weary- or complacent.

How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
(Eph 3:3-5)

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen. 
(Rom 16:25-27)

This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you in which I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles.
(2Pe 3:1-2)

I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling, to stir you up by way of reminder, knowing that the laying aside of my earthly dwelling is imminent, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. And I will also be diligent that at any time after my departure you will be able to call these things to mind. For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty. For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory, "This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased"-- and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain. So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.
(2Pe 1:13-19)

 :cloud9: Just a side note..........He sent Cain into the land of Nod.......Nod means in Hebrew, "wandering(s)". Contrast with the steps of the righteous being ordered by the Lord......Blessings....