Is the present world with all its chaos, troubles, morality of the mankind, calamities, and sorrows... in the plan of The Creator...or is the world being controlled or lead by some other force?
It is currently controlled by the god of this world, present company excepted.
O!
"Have you considered my servant Job? <——— Appears God is in control.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 04, 2011, 05:32:10 AM
Is the present world with all its chaos, troubles, morality of the mankind, calamities, and sorrows... in the plan of The Creator...or is the world being controlled or lead by some other force?
I'd suggest satan is a tool to serve YHWH's purposes - that he must either a) ask permission, b) be told what to do, and/or c) allowed to do whatever he does. All to fulfill God's plan for mankind to have an experience of evil, and return to the Father whole and better for it. :2c:
Quote from: jabcat on August 04, 2011, 07:12:53 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 04, 2011, 05:32:10 AM
Is the present world with all its chaos, troubles, morality of the mankind, calamities, and sorrows... in the plan of The Creator...or is the world being controlled or lead by some other force?
I'd suggest satan is a tool to serve YHWH's purposes - that he must either a) ask permission, b) be told what to do, and/or c) allowed to do whatever he does. All to fulfill God's plan for mankind to have an experience of evil, and return to the Father whole and better for it. :2c:
"allowed to do whatever he does." Used. Amen.
Quote from: Molly on August 04, 2011, 05:50:55 AM
It is currently controlled by the god of this world, present company excepted.
I think some suffering, diseases, disasters etc are caused by God, to chastize and punish.
Difficult to know what is going on with God at times. I think it's a matter of revelation. Often I have gone through suffering and I have blamed myself or the devil, but I have received revelation that the matter was by Gods hand, for some unknown reason.
Quote from: Molly on August 04, 2011, 05:50:55 AM
It is currently controlled by the god of this world, present company excepted.
That is an untruth. Isa 45:7 Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil.
I, Yahweh Elohim, made all of these things."When did Jehovah give up His authority? When did the I AM put the god of this world in control? Or has the I AM allowed the adversary to think he is in control? Myself for one does not accept that lie. JESUS LIVES and that being true, He and He alone is the Master of ALL HIS CREATION.
micah, you bringing this back up and, uh, questioning it :winkgrin: helped me, I think, to see this a little more clearly. I've struggled with this for awhile, because although I do believe God is in control, the scripture does say things like "the god of this world has blinded them", etc. So it could be assumed he is in control. But thinking through this tonight, I realize it's possible for something to be a [false] god - to be worshiped, esteemed, followed, and can even have some influence - without that god still actually being in control. (also, apparently an accurate translation is 'age' rather than 'world'). So that does fit better with my main belief on this, that satan is a tool of God, used by Him to accomplish His purposes, that he can do nothing without permission, etc. Hmmm...
I consider your answer and response excellent. :bigGrin: :thumbsup:
Should the Father have given any of His Glory and power to a facet of His Nature that He brought forth for His purpose, and have the power to undermine any of His authority, I would no longer be unable to carry my cross.
:dsunny:
The earth is the LORD's and the fullness thereof. Psalm 24:1
Amen!
And just where do all of you find these fine little icons of happy and sometimes doubt and other things of humor? You know like your sunshine face.
where you see the one row of emoticons (icons) just click on the [more] under the very first one (the little girl drawing a heart) and it'll bring up a bunch of goodies. :)
Quote from: thinktank on August 04, 2011, 07:13:22 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 04, 2011, 05:50:55 AM
It is currently controlled by the god of this world, present company excepted.
I think some suffering, diseases, disasters etc are caused by God, to chastize and punish.
Difficult to know what is going on with God at times. I think it's a matter of revelation. Often I have gone through suffering and I have blamed myself or the devil, but I have received revelation that the matter was by Gods hand, for some unknown reason.
I agree in principle with this view. I look at Israel, and when they were unfaithful they would first receive pillagers on their borders. If they persisted they would recive plunderers in their cities, if they continued in idolatry they would be besieged, even unto Jerusalem, then finally, they would be taken captive-removed from the inheritance.
"Except you repent I will cast you with her upon a bed of tribulation"...... a warning to the churh in the early chapters of Revelation.
Quote from: jabcat on August 04, 2011, 07:12:53 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 04, 2011, 05:32:10 AM
Is the present world with all its chaos, troubles, morality of the mankind, calamities, and sorrows... in the plan of The Creator...or is the world being controlled or lead by some other force?
I'd suggest satan is a tool to serve YHWH's purposes - that he must either a) ask permission, b) be told what to do, and/or c) allowed to do whatever he does. All to fulfill God's plan for mankind to have an experience of evil, and return to the Father whole and better for it. :2c:
I agree, and even when he doesn t ask permission, all things work together for good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose. ;o)
6 One day the angels[a sons of God] came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan[b adversary] also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"
Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it."
The end of Job's test was a deeper knowledge of the Holy One
1 Peter 5:8
New International Version (NIV)
8 Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.
Quote from: eaglesway on August 06, 2011, 10:31:12 PM
Quote from: jabcat on August 04, 2011, 07:12:53 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 04, 2011, 05:32:10 AM
Is the present world with all its chaos, troubles, morality of the mankind, calamities, and sorrows... in the plan of The Creator...or is the world being controlled or lead by some other force?
I'd suggest satan is a tool to serve YHWH's purposes - that he must either a) ask permission, b) be told what to do, and/or c) allowed to do whatever he does. All to fulfill God's plan for mankind to have an experience of evil, and return to the Father whole and better for it. :2c:
I agree, and even when he doesn t ask permission, all things work together for good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose. ;o)
6 One day the angels[a sons of God] came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan[b adversary] also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"
Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it."
The end of Job's test was a deeper knowledge of the Holy One
1 Peter 5:8
New International Version (NIV)
8 Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.
In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7 These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. 8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9 for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
Quote from: eaglesway on August 06, 2011, 10:24:12 PM
-removed from the inheritance.
The biggest wake-up call ever.
god H430 אלהים 'ĕlôhı̂ym Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
H433 'ĕlôahh 'ĕlôahh (The second form is rare); probably prolonged (emphatically) from H410; a deity or the deity: - God, god. See H430.
H410 'êl strength; as adjective mighty; especially the Almighty (but used also of any deity): - God (god), X goodly, X great, idol, might (-y one), power, strong. Compare names in "-el."
dagon H1712 dâgôn the fish god; Dagon, a Philistine deity: - Dagon.
Gen 35:2 And Jacob saith unto his household, and unto all who are with him, `Turn aside the gods of the stranger which are in your midst, and cleanse yourselves, and change your garments;
Quote from: Micah on August 06, 2011, 10:24:12 PM
Turn aside the gods of the stranger which are in your midst, and cleanse yourselves, and change your garments
beautiful verse.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 07, 2011, 06:28:17 AM
Quote from: Micah on August 06, 2011, 10:24:12 PM
Turn aside the gods of the stranger which are in your midst, and cleanse yourselves, and change your garments
beautiful verse.
Yes it is! :dsunny:
I am not really smart when it comes to arithmetic at all, but I do know that ONE is ONE and not two or three.
Deu 6:4 `Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah;
One H259 'echâd A numeral from H258; properly united, that is, one; or (as an ordinal) first: - a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any (-thing), apiece, a certain [dai-] ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
H258 'âchad Perhaps a primitive root; to unify, that is, (figuratively) collect (one's thoughts): - go one way or other.Peace
G1515 eirēnē (to join); peace (literally or figuratively); by implication prosperity: - one, peace, quietness, rest, + set at one again.
Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one.'
I thought we all looked at God from different percpectives and all were perhaps correct as far as we know.
But I have a question that has rolled around in my mind ever sense I real a short story by Mark Twain, I believe was titled
"The Stranger" about a quiet man who came to a northern church and spoke about the war (our Civil war or The War between the States) others can be compared, but this was in our country, brothers fighting brothers, and the quiet mans one main question was, on which side was God on? The North or the South. For they all had gathered to pray for their sides victory.
It may be a elementary question, but I find it quiet deep a thought.
Peace and Love Through Jesus
Find it quite a deep thought....me too.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 07, 2011, 09:45:46 AM
I am not really smart when it comes to arithmetic at all, but I do know that ONE is ONE and not two or three.
Yes one. But the real question is one of what? 1 person? 1 football team? 1 army? 1 universe? 1 mind?
The word one can only be understood by context. And often can't be used to prove the conext. (would be circular reasoning)
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 08, 2011, 08:48:57 AM
Yes one. But the real question is one of what? 1 person? 1 football team? 1 army? 1 universe? 1 mind?
The word one can only be understood by context. And often can't be used to prove the conext. (would be circular reasoning)
Oh yeah, regarding context. In my opinion, context makes it clear that it means
functioning as one - in unison, in total agreement. Here's a contextual verse that I believe supports that.
Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. Jn 17:11
1) I don't believe Jesus was praying to Himself, He was praying to His Father, 2) Jesus said in His prayer that His Father gave Him His name, not that He gave it to Himself, and 3) He states He wishes "they" [multiple] believers would be "one", even as He and His Father are "one". So again, I understand this as "function", not "form".
For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit.
--1 Cor 12:13
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
--Eph 4
Body can also be like "the cloud".
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 08, 2011, 10:18:22 AM
Body can also be like "the cloud".
Interesting. Spiritual [celestial] bodies.
Quote from: jabcat on August 08, 2011, 09:26:48 AMSo again, I understand this as "function", not "form".
Yep, it's about teamwork. Same team. Same goals.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 08, 2011, 11:24:40 AM
Quote from: jabcat on August 08, 2011, 09:26:48 AMSo again, I understand this as "function", not "form".
Yep, it's about teamwork. Same team. Same goals.
It's more than that--same Spirit, same body.
Quote from: jabcat on August 08, 2011, 09:26:48 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 08, 2011, 08:48:57 AM
Yes one. But the real question is one of what? 1 person? 1 football team? 1 army? 1 universe? 1 mind?
The word one can only be understood by context. And often can't be used to prove the conext. (would be circular reasoning)
Oh yeah, regarding context. In my opinion, context makes it clear that it means functioning as one - in unison, in total agreement. Here's a contextual verse that I believe supports that.
Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. Jn 17:11
1) I don't believe Jesus was praying to Himself, He was praying to His Father, 2) Jesus said in His prayer that His Father gave Him His name, not that He gave it to Himself, and 3) He states He wishes "they" [multiple] believers would be "one", even as He and His Father are "one". So again, I understand this as "function", not "form".
Perhaps and more than possible you may be correct in what you say, yet I see Jesus as the Son and
I and the Father are one John 10:30
Joh 5:37 `And the Father who sent me Himself hath testified concerning me;
, nor His appearance have ye seen; Joh 14:9 Jesus saith to him, `So long time am I with you, and thou hast not known me, Philip?
he who hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how dost thou say, Shew to us the Father? Peace H7965 shâlôm shâlôm safe from H7999 shâlam A primitive root;
to be safe (in mind, body or estate); figuratively to be (causatively make)
completed; by implication to be friendly
Body G4983 sōma the body (as a sound
whole), From G4982 sōzō From a primary word σῶς sōs̄ (contraction for the obsolete σάος saos,
"safe"); to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): - heal, preserve,
save (self), do well,
be (make) whole.John 1:18
(CLV) God no one has ever seen. The only-begotten God, Who is in the bosom of the Father,
He unfolds Him."(WNT) No human eye has ever seen God: the only Son, who is in the Father's bosom-
-He has made Him known. (YLT) God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father-
-he did declare.I realize even with myself it is difficult understand ONE. "
ye have neither heard His voice at any time" so that is Jesus speaking not the Father Yes? For we have neither heard His voice. Jesus is not functioning as the Father .. He is the Father
I and the Father are ONE. I know I know :sigh: didnt do well.
ACVMatthew 24
36 But about that day and hour no man knows, not even the agents of the heavens, except my Father only.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 08, 2011, 08:03:03 PM
ACVMatthew 24
36 But about that day and hour no man knows, not even the agents of the heavens, except my Father only.
Who or whom Jesus declares(unfolds.)
UNFOLDS !
You saw that too, Micah!
PRAISE GOD!
Yes I saw that Beloved :bigGrin:
Deu 6:4 Hear, Israel! Yahweh is our Elohim; Yahweh the only One.
Hear, Israel [he will reign as God(El) The self exsistant[Lord] our God[Elohyim;gods]
(is) one H259 'echâd A numeral from H258; properly united, that is, one; or (as an ordinal) first H258 to unify Lord [The self exsistant I AM I AM]
1Co 15:28 But when the whole universe has been made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also become subject to Him who has made the universe subject to Him, in order that GOD may be all in all.
This God here I reason to be The diety, The EL, The GOD.
Is this not ONE?
One.
No longer fragmented.
He is the radiance of the Father's glory and the express icon of His character
...for so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in Him
...and of His fulness have we all received with multiplying grace
They were all as one soul and had all things in common and no one among them had any need and the word of the Lord grew and multiplied and the Lord added daily to the church such as were appointed to deliverance.
"I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.
(Joh 17:20-23)
Can I be shown in the Bible where Jesus Christ was not the voice or the channel, that God or the Father used to speak?
Christ and the Father are one because they are so in agreement about everything.
When I agree with my dad about stuff we are as one. We are still two individuals but we are at one.
Christ states that He came to do His Father's will.
John 12;49 " Because I speak not out of myself, but the Father Who sent me has Himself given Me commandment what I should say and what I should speak. And I know that His commandment is life age-abiding; therefore the things which I speak just as the the Father has told Me so I speak."
Christ states that into Your hands do I commend my spirit.
The Jews did not like the way Jesus was referring to God as his Father because in their culture He was claiming to be equal with God because He was calling God His Father.
That was why Christ was charged and crucified under the charge of blasphemy.
In Timothy Paul stated that no one had seen the Father. That seems to be linking in with the concept that Adam was actually walking in the garden with Christ.
Jesus was the rock that followed the Jews around [ 1 Cor 10;4].
I realize this is point form, but I hope the truth stands out.
Young's Literal Translation
1 And I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, 2 and all to Moses were baptized in the cloud, and in the sea; 3 and all the same spiritual food did eat, 4 and all the same spiritual drink did drink, for they were drinking of a spiritual rock following them, and the rock was the Christ; 5 but in the most of them God was not well pleased, for they were strewn in the wilderness,
6 and those things became types of us, for our not passionately desiring evil things, as also these did desire. 7 Neither become ye idolaters, as certain of them, as it hath been written, 'The people sat down to eat and to drink, and stood up to play;' 8 neither may we commit whoredom, as certain of them did commit whoredom, and there fell in one day twenty-three thousand; 9 neither may we tempt the Christ, as also certain of them did tempt, and by the serpents did perish;
Here we have the cloud, the rock which was the Christ, which gave them spiritual drink
Also note that they tempted the Christ, and they perished by the serpents
Num 21
4 And they journey from mount Hor, the way of the Red Sea, to compass the land of Edom, and the soul of the people is short in the way, 5 and the people speak against God, and against Moses, 'Why hast thou brought us up out of Egypt to die in a wilderness? for there is no bread, and there is no water, and our soul hath been weary of this light bread.
6 And Jehovah sendeth among the people the burning serpents, and they bite the people, and much people of Israel die;
Here they tempted God and perished by serpents, In 1 Cor they tempted Christ and perished by serpents
'Eze 1
4As I looked, behold, a storm wind was coming from the north, a great cloud with fire flashing forth continually and a bright light around it, and in its midst something like glowing metal in the midst of the fire. 5Within it there were figures resembling four living beings. And this was their appearance: they had human form. 6Each of them had four faces and four wings.
a cloud with flashing fire, hmm sounds familiar
also note the cherubim
And above the expanse that is over their head, as an appearance of a sapphire stone, is the likeness of a throne, and on the likeness of the throne a likeness, as the appearance of man upon it from above. 27 And I see as the colour of copper, as the appearance of fire within it round about, from the appearance of his loins and upward, and from the appearance of his loins and downward, I have seen as the appearance of fire, and brightness is to it round about. 28 As the appearance of the bow that is in a cloud in a day of rain, so is the appearance of the brightness round about. Such was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell on my face and heard a voice speaking.
a stone, that is a throne
something like fire, like the appearance of a man, the likeness of the glory of the LORD
Exo 40:34
Then the cloud covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle.
Deut 31:14
The Lord appeared in the tent in a pillar of cloud that stood above the door of the tent.
back to EZE 2
1Then He said to me (the one in the cloud), "Son of man, stand on your feet that I may speak with you!" 2As He spoke to me the Spirit entered me and set me on my feet; and I heard Him speaking to me. 3Then He said to me, "Son of man, I am sending you to the sons of Israel, to a rebellious people who have rebelled against Me; they and their fathers have transgressed against Me to this very day. 4"I am sending you to them who are stubborn and obstinate children, and you shall say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD.' 5"As for them, whether they listen or not—for they are a rebellious house—they will know that a prophet has been among them. 6"And you, son of man, neither fear them nor fear their words, though thistles and thorns are with you and you sit on scorpions; neither fear their words nor be dismayed at their presence, for they are a rebellious house. 7"But you shall speak My words to them whether they listen or not, for they are rebellious.
8"Now you, son of man, listen to what I am speaking to you; do not be rebellious like that rebellious house. Open your mouth and eat what I am giving you." 9Then I looked, and behold, a hand was extended to me; and lo, a scroll was in it. 10When He spread it out before me, it was written on the front and back, and written on it were lamentations, mourning and woe.
The people rebelled against Him, and Thus says the Lord God
Rev 22:1
Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb
spiritual drink coming from the throne
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God; 2 this one was in the beginning with God; 3 all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men,
For from Him, through Him, and to Him are all things (God here)
The word tabernacled among us, the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle, the likeness of a son of man in the cloud which is the glory of the Lord. That "man" sits on a stone throne, above the cherubim, the arc of the covenant was the throne of God with cherubim underneath where God would "sit". Out of that throne came spirtual water, that Rock is the Christ.
Numbers 20 Speak to that rock before their eyes,and it will pour out it's water
Mount of Transfiguration Mark 9;4 AND THERE APPEARED BEFORE THEM,MOSES AND ELIJAH WHO WERE TALKING WITH JESUS
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 08, 2011, 07:44:35 PM
Quote from: jabcat on August 08, 2011, 09:26:48 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 08, 2011, 08:48:57 AM
Yes one. But the real question is one of what? 1 person? 1 football team? 1 army? 1 universe? 1 mind?
The word one can only be understood by context. And often can't be used to prove the conext. (would be circular reasoning)
Oh yeah, regarding context. In my opinion, context makes it clear that it means functioning as one - in unison, in total agreement. Here's a contextual verse that I believe supports that.
Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. Jn 17:11
1) I don't believe Jesus was praying to Himself, He was praying to His Father, 2) Jesus said in His prayer that His Father gave Him His name, not that He gave it to Himself, and 3) He states He wishes "they" [multiple] believers would be "one", even as He and His Father are "one". So again, I understand this as "function", not "form".
Perhaps and more than possible you may be correct in what you say, yet I see Jesus as the Son and I and the Father are one John 10:30
Joh 5:37 `And the Father who sent me Himself hath testified concerning me; , nor His appearance have ye seen;
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith to him, `So long time am I with you, and thou hast not known me, Philip? he who hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how dost thou say, Shew to us the Father?
Peace H7965 shâlôm shâlôm safe from H7999 shâlam A primitive root; to be safe (in mind, body or estate); figuratively to be (causatively make) completed; by implication to be friendly
Body G4983 sōma the body (as a sound whole), From G4982 sōzō From a primary word σῶς sōs̄ (contraction for the obsolete σάος saos, "safe"); to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.
John 1:18
(CLV) God no one has ever seen. The only-begotten God, Who is in the bosom of the Father, He unfolds Him."
(WNT) No human eye has ever seen God: the only Son, who is in the Father's bosom--He has made Him known.
(YLT) God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father--he did declare.
I realize even with myself it is difficult understand ONE. "ye have neither heard His voice at any time" so that is Jesus speaking not the Father Yes? For we have neither heard His voice. Jesus is not functioning as the Father .. He is the Father
I and the Father are ONE. I know I know :sigh: didnt do well.
When Jesus says he is one with the Father we can see what he means by other comparisons that Jesus made.
For example in Genesis God says that the man and the wife shall be one flesh. Here there are two people involved in this manner of speech called one.
Jesus also says that we shall be one body. But there are numerous members within that body, but we function as One in purpose and in Spirit, which is Gods Spirit.
We can see that Jesus is not the Father, because he speaks to His Father in heaven, and Father speaks to Jesus as his dear Son.
Elijah 1 Kings 19..
Elijah in a cave..".WORD OF LORD" CAME TO HIM, "what are you doing here'? GO OUT AND STAND ON THE MOUNTAIN IN THE
PRESENCE OF THE LORD[appeared at mount of transfiguration] FOR THE LORD IS ABOUT TO PASS BY,
then a great/powerful wind toe the mountains apart and shattered the rocks[hard hearts?] before the Lord..but the Lord was not in the wind..
after the wins there was an earthquake,but the Lord was not in the earthquake. After the earthquake came a fire,but the Lord was not in the fire
and after the fire came a gentle whisper
When Elijah heard it,he pulled his cloak over his face,and went out and stood at the mouth of the cave
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 10, 2011, 01:54:25 PM
Young's Literal Translation
1 And I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, 2 and all to Moses were baptized in the cloud, and in the sea; 3 and all the same spiritual food did eat, 4 and all the same spiritual drink did drink, for they were drinking of a spiritual rock following them, and the rock was the Christ; 5 but in the most of them God was not well pleased, for they were strewn in the wilderness,
6 and those things became types of us, for our not passionately desiring evil things, as also these did desire. 7 Neither become ye idolaters, as certain of them, as it hath been written, 'The people sat down to eat and to drink, and stood up to play;' 8 neither may we commit whoredom, as certain of them did commit whoredom, and there fell in one day twenty-three thousand; 9 neither may we tempt the Christ, as also certain of them did tempt, and by the serpents did perish;
Here we have the cloud, the rock which was the Christ, which gave them spiritual drink
Also note that they tempted the Christ, and they perished by the serpents
Num 21
4 And they journey from mount Hor, the way of the Red Sea, to compass the land of Edom, and the soul of the people is short in the way, 5 and the people speak against God, and against Moses, 'Why hast thou brought us up out of Egypt to die in a wilderness? for there is no bread, and there is no water, and our soul hath been weary of this light bread.
6 And Jehovah sendeth among the people the burning serpents, and they bite the people, and much people of Israel die;
Here they tempted God and perished by serpents, In 1 Cor they tempted Christ and perished by serpents
'Eze 1
4As I looked, behold, a storm wind was coming from the north, a great cloud with fire flashing forth continually and a bright light around it, and in its midst something like glowing metal in the midst of the fire. 5Within it there were figures resembling four living beings. And this was their appearance: they had human form. 6Each of them had four faces and four wings.
a cloud with flashing fire, hmm sounds familiar
also note the cherubim
And above the expanse that is over their head, as an appearance of a sapphire stone, is the likeness of a throne, and on the likeness of the throne a likeness, as the appearance of man upon it from above. 27 And I see as the colour of copper, as the appearance of fire within it round about, from the appearance of his loins and upward, and from the appearance of his loins and downward, I have seen as the appearance of fire, and brightness is to it round about. 28 As the appearance of the bow that is in a cloud in a day of rain, so is the appearance of the brightness round about. Such was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell on my face and heard a voice speaking.
a stone, that is a throne
something like fire, like the appearance of a man, the likeness of the glory of the LORD
Exo 40:34
Then the cloud covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle.
Deut 31:14
The Lord appeared in the tent in a pillar of cloud that stood above the door of the tent.
back to EZE 2
1Then He said to me (the one in the cloud), "Son of man, stand on your feet that I may speak with you!" 2As He spoke to me the Spirit entered me and set me on my feet; and I heard Him speaking to me. 3Then He said to me, "Son of man, I am sending you to the sons of Israel, to a rebellious people who have rebelled against Me; they and their fathers have transgressed against Me to this very day. 4"I am sending you to them who are stubborn and obstinate children, and you shall say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD.' 5"As for them, whether they listen or not—for they are a rebellious house—they will know that a prophet has been among them. 6"And you, son of man, neither fear them nor fear their words, though thistles and thorns are with you and you sit on scorpions; neither fear their words nor be dismayed at their presence, for they are a rebellious house. 7"But you shall speak My words to them whether they listen or not, for they are rebellious.
8"Now you, son of man, listen to what I am speaking to you; do not be rebellious like that rebellious house. Open your mouth and eat what I am giving you." 9Then I looked, and behold, a hand was extended to me; and lo, a scroll was in it. 10When He spread it out before me, it was written on the front and back, and written on it were lamentations, mourning and woe.
The people rebelled against Him, and Thus says the Lord God
Rev 22:1
Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb
spiritual drink coming from the throne
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God; 2 this one was in the beginning with God; 3 all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men,
For from Him, through Him, and to Him are all things (God here)
The word tabernacled among us, the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle, the likeness of a son of man in the cloud which is the glory of the Lord. That "man" sits on a stone throne, above the cherubim, the arc of the covenant was the throne of God with cherubim underneath where God would "sit". Out of that throne came spirtual water, that Rock is the Christ.
Glory :icon_king:
"Jesus also says that we shall be one body. But there are numerous members within that body, but we function as One in purpose and in Spirit, which is Gods Spirit." TT
Does God have a spirit? I have only read Joh 4:24 God is spirit,
I am only asking. Peace and Love Through Jesus
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 10, 2011, 10:35:18 PMDoes God have a spirit? I have only read Joh 4:24 God is spirit,
Is that a trick question? :winkgrin:
The fact that God IS a spirit doesn't mean He has a spirit. Being something is not the same as having/owning something.
But the Holy Spirit comes from God so He has a spirit.
Maybe the statement "God is spirit" simply means He has no solid form like air/wind/breath.
God has a spirit which I distinct from a man, or unclean spirit.
As God is the Father of all spirits, then everything that is created by God is spirit.
They produce after their own kind
2 Corinthians 5:
18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
Numbers 16:22
And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?
Numbers 27:16
Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation,
Mark 3:11
And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.
Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 10, 2011, 11:09:10 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 10, 2011, 10:35:18 PMDoes God have a spirit? I have only read Joh 4:24 God is spirit,
Is that a trick question? :winkgrin:
The fact that God IS a spirit doesn't mean He has a spirit. Being something is not the same as having/owning something.
But the Holy Spirit comes from God so He has a spirit.
Maybe the statement "God is spirit" simply means He has no solid form like air/wind/breath.
No, it is not a trick question.
And I believe it was the Father, not God...Joh 14:26 and the Comforter, the Holy Spirit,
whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and remind you of all things that I said to you.
"Maybe the statement "God is spirit" simply means He has no solid form like air/wind/breath." WW
Now we are reasoning! :bigGrin:
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 11, 2011, 12:09:15 AMAnd I believe it was the Father, not God...
For me Father=God. I use those words interchangeable.
Jesus said quite plainly, "My Father is greater than I" and " I can do nothing by myself" the "Father is doing the works"-
Now really, I have no axe to grind, I have friends of all persuasions, but as I think we can, as you put it Micah, "reason" without necessarily agreeing :o)
As WW stated, I also see the oneness of Jesus as being primarily functional and a statement of union in essence and purpose. I can not see the Son as co-equal to the Father, (maybe not even co-eternal, "Father" is genative in relationship to "Son"). It seems to me that Colossians teaches that Jesus possesses the fulness of deity because "so it pleased the Father" to make it so.
Jesus is the "express image" of the invisible God, the "radiance of the Father's glory" (Heb 1:1-3)so when He says, "I and My Father are one" it is reasonable to conclude He is speaking of "union of essence and purpose", and is offering us the right to become the same(John 1:-12 the right to become sons of God) "that they may be one even as I and the Father are one.
1 Corinthians 15 shows that the Father is the one who is subjecting all things to Christ, who will return all things to the Father after every adversary has become united in one spirit, so that God may be all in all.
The way I see it Jesus as the Logos(expressed thought) of God was God in the beginning in essence and union as Son but not equal in form, nor in authority. Perhaps Jesus "godness" was given to Him by the Father (thats what it seems to say in Colossians). Therefore He was also with God in the beginning and "in God" (I came out from God) as a seed, son, etc.
This I think, is why Jesus rebutted the Pharisees assertion that He was making Himself out to be God with the argument, "So what! Don't the scriptures say that you are all gods and sons of the most high?"
In my opinion He was teaching them about the nature of sonship and the creation of man and the ultimate purpose of man to be living stones in one temple, of which He is the chief cornerstone- the stumbling block.
Whether or not my view is correct, and I see it very much as a developing understanding- i think it is so ironic that the Pharisees, sitting under the tree of the knowledge f good and evil, eating its fruit, and listening to the whisper in their heart from the adversary ("You shall be as God), ruling and dominating their brothers and preparing, in Cain, to murder their Messiah- acted all put out because Jesus taught that men could be Elohym and Sons.
What the Father has offered to those who overcome, is the right to inherit all things with Jesus and to reign in life, light and love -with Him as Priests and Sons in the ages to come
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(Eph 2:6-8)
After all adversaries including death are destroyed so that only that which cannot be shaken remains there will be only love. Who will bee "rule, power or authority"? It will be done away. God will be all in all. Every shadow will pass- every law. All consumed within the perfect law of liberty burning within every heart in the renewed creation.
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
(Rom 8:21)
Beloved, we know not yet what we shall be, but we know that when He appears we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is"
Is it not written, in your own law, ye are all gods and sons of the most high?
Eaglesway, I find your report a good study. I too am still seeing through a glass darkly; still the Lord has moved in me to get away from the teachings of orthodox religion(especially christian) and seek the Holy Spirit for my teacher, and I find that all that I have been taught as a negative. The Lord has me to study under many inspired and learned men and woman who came out of the Latter Rain and Kingdom teaching. I will not name them, I am sure you know them as well. I thank you again for your report.
Peace and Love Through Jesus :bigGrin:
Micah and Eaglesway, I see this through a glass thats covered in oil, and about the size of a dime. When Christ is called God how does that play into your understanding? (see my long post on page 2).
Red I assume you mean this post on page 1:
Quoteback to EZE 2
1Then He said to me (the one in the cloud), "Son of man, stand on your feet that I may speak with you!" 2As He spoke to me the Spirit entered me and set me on my feet; and I heard Him speaking to me. 3Then He said to me, "Son of man, I am sending you to the sons of Israel, to a rebellious people who have rebelled against Me; they and their fathers have transgressed against Me to this very day. 4"I am sending you to them who are stubborn and obstinate children, and you shall say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD.'
Imo only Father is called God in this verse.
The son of man is not Jesus but Ezikel who wrote down the verse. "He=God=Me said to me..................................................." "So said God"
Sure this verse is
also a prophesy about Jesus. Jesus is also the Son of Man. So if we assume Jesus is called God in this verse then Ezikel is
also God.
So..... :winkgrin:
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 11, 2011, 03:18:16 PM
Red I assume you mean this post on page 1:
Quoteback to EZE 2
1Then He said to me (the one in the cloud), "Son of man, stand on your feet that I may speak with you!" 2As He spoke to me the Spirit entered me and set me on my feet; and I heard Him speaking to me. 3Then He said to me, "Son of man, I am sending you to the sons of Israel, to a rebellious people who have rebelled against Me; they and their fathers have transgressed against Me to this very day. 4"I am sending you to them who are stubborn and obstinate children, and you shall say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD.'
Imo only Father is called God in this verse.
The son of man is not Jesus but Ezikel who wrote down the verse. "He=God=Me said to me..................................................." "So said God"
Sure this verse is also a prophesy about Jesus. Jesus is also the Son of Man. So if we assume Jesus is called God in this verse then Ezikel is also God.
So..... :winkgrin:
I agree the son of man in this verse is Ezekiel, but there is one in the cloud with a likeness of the son of man
The one in the cloud who they sinned against, the me is shown to be Christ the rock that followed them in the wilderness, the same stone that water comes out of, the one riding on the cherubim. The same as the glory of the Lord that fills the temple.
The Israelites tempted God
Num 21
4 And they journey from mount Hor, the way of the Red Sea, to compass the land of Edom, and the soul of the people is short in the way, 5 and
the people speak against God, and against Moses, 'Why hast thou brought us up out of Egypt to die in a wilderness? for there is no bread, and there is no water, and our soul hath been weary of this light bread.
6 And Jehovah sendeth among the people the burning serpents, and they bite the people, and much people of Israel die;
Israelites tempted Christ
9
neither may we tempt the Christ, as also certain of them did tempt, and by the serpents did perish;
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 11, 2011, 01:44:31 PM
I see this through a glass thats covered in oil, and about the size of a dime.
I like that, not sure what it means though, but I like it!
very darkly, kind of like those keychains they had at amusement parks with your picture they take of you in front. The tiny little eyehole.
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 11, 2011, 05:31:14 PM
very darkly, kind of like those keychains they had at amusement parks with your picture they take of you in front. The tiny little eyehole.
Looking though the eye of needle.
I may be a comfort to you knowing some wear 2 eyepatches :winkgrin:
I love dogs :laughing7:
I remember them! lol
A cheap View-Master knockoff in 2-D.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 11, 2011, 05:35:19 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 11, 2011, 05:31:14 PM
very darkly, kind of like those keychains they had at amusement parks with your picture they take of you in front. The tiny little eyehole.
Looking though the eye of needle.
I may be a confort to you some wear 2 eyepatches :winkgrin:
I love dogs :laughing7:
:happygrin:
Looking though the eye of needle. <— that I understand.
I may be a confort to you some wear 2 eyepatches <— that I do not.
I love dogs < — that one either.
A dog with an eye-patch?
(http://vinspired.com/uploads/opportunities/identities/7794/medium/imagesCA8SMVW1.jpg?1309186363)
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 11, 2011, 01:44:31 PM
Micah and Eaglesway, I see this through a glass thats covered in oil, and about the size of a dime. When Christ is called God how does that play into your understanding? (see my long post on page 2).
I really see it the same way(oily window the size of a dime :o). I have studied the matter thoroughly for thirty years and may be no closer to the essence of it than when I started. What I am certainly aware of though, is that none of the primary dogmas work entirely, and believers in good standing may disagree about certain things. Someone believes "I and the Father are one" defines the trinity. Someone else thinks it defines the heart relationship and union between the Son and the Father, someone else thinks that the Son is the Father in another mode of the expression of the Spirit of God. I have no axe to grind concerning these particular views- I just think they all cut it out of whole cloth as if it was something definable by them, when maybe it isn t even fully revealed. In my opinion, questioning the matter is healthy and it in no way involves blashphemy-regardless of ones doctrine on the matter. Some say Jesus MUST be GOD ALMIGHTY to sve the world. I say.....WHY? Is He not the LAMB SLAIN whether He is co-equal to the Father or not? Isnt His blood sufficient as the Son of a virgin with child by the Holy Ghost?
I say ....yes! This does not mean I don't believe Jesus is God. It means I think we don't fully understand what that means and it may not fit into our orthodox boxes. It is also written that Jesus is the fulness of the deity IN BODILY FORM....For so it pleased the Father to MAKE ALL THE FULNESS DWELL IN HIM. I don't think we get that. It is rarely injected into the discussion by Trinitarians or Modalists. I think all that is necessary to see the kingdom is to believe that Jesus is the Word, only Begotten of the Father, Lived in perfect obedience, died in perfect love, was resurrected in supreme power, and lives to forgive sins.
A Modalist(iam not a modalist) sees I John like this. In the beginning was the ice cube, and the ice cube was water, and the ice cube was in the water in the beginning. They see Jesus as a coalesced form of the invisible indefinable almighty omniscient God who is spirit. I have no problem with that view, until they take it to extreme. Tertullian was the father of the trinity doctrine, hundreds of years after the apostles died. He saw Jesus as co substantial and co-eternal but not co-equal. Now, among trinitarians, if you do not believe Jesus is co-equal to the Father you do not believe He is God and you are a heretic. I say, HOGWASH!
If Jesus wanted us to have a systematic theology that defined every aspect of the mystery- He would have come with one. He never made it so clear as we would like it. We may all get a huge shock when we "see Him as He is" and "know as we are known"
Quote from: eaglesway on August 13, 2011, 07:15:39 AM
If Jesus wanted us to have a systematic theology that defined every aspect of the mystery- He would have come with one. He never made it so clear as we would like it. We may all get a huge shock when we "see Him as He is" and "know as we are known"
That's what I think. I'm one that does like to understand things. But I'm also one that believes it's very much OK to say "I don't fully know or understand, and I don't think we always have to. Just go back to what the scriptures say about Him. Believe exactly what you understand them to say, in the best way you know how. He will show us the rest when it suits His purposes".
I'll take it a step further. I can also be distrustful of someone (their views) who comes across as fully understanding it all. Paul didn't say we see through a glass darkly without good reason. :2c:
I've taken the same stance, it doesn't really matter for us to know it exactly. Just trying to gain a better understanding.
God is outside of time, He is likely at least 11 dimensional (not that we can really describe this). Have you seen the movie Contact with Jodie Foster? In it they receive a message from the stars that tells them how to build a ship to go visit somewhere (it turns out to be "God"). Anyway they can't figure out what the message sent means until they stop thinking 2d and start thinking 3d. When they put the plan together in the form of a cube a picture shows up, the plans come to light.
We try to reconcille different concepts, verses, using our puny 4d minds (time is the 4th), when we can't even picture a 4d (4 physical dimensions) object (called a hypercube) and we try and picture God, and relate it to what we see here and now, but our brains can't even comprehend it.
The lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. Jesus was slain 2000 years ago. (I know that there are many ideas of what the foundation is, or what world are we talking about). both are correct, once you are outside of time, like God.
The same goes for will we go immediately to heaven when we die or have "soul sleep". One we would have no idea the difference (in our linear 3d minds), although I don't like the idea of being dead for x years. but two it doesn't matter, because once we are released from this temporal dwelling, we will also be outside of time, in fact we are now. We are seated at the right hand in Christ now. We aren't there physically, but we are there. The "we" just can't comprehend it because we are confined to these bodies and these 4 dimensions.
its kind of like this: I'm watching a movie at home. In this scenario, I'm outside of the dimensions and time. The people in the movie are in the 4d's. The end has already been declared from the beginning, you can fast forward, rewind, pause, go straight to the end and watch the end, its already laid down on the dvd. The people in the movie have no clue if you fast forward, stop, rewind, those things are outside of their normal dimensions (all that data stored in concentric rings on the dvd, the dvd is their universe).
This is probably confusing, I know I'm confused and I'm the one that wrote it :bigGrin:
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 13, 2011, 02:51:26 PM
I've taken the same stance, it doesn't really matter for us to know it exactly. Just trying to gain a better understanding.
God is outside of time, He is likely at least 11 dimensional (not that we can really describe this). Have you seen the movie Contact with Jodie Foster? In it they receive a message from the stars that tells them how to build a ship to go visit somewhere (it turns out to be "God"). Anyway they can't figure out what the message sent means until they stop thinking 2d and start thinking 3d. When they put the plan together in the form of a cube a picture shows up, the plans come to light.
We try to reconcille different concepts, verses, using our puny 4d minds (time is the 4th), when we can't even picture a 4d (4 physical dimensions) object (called a hypercube) and we try and picture God, and relate it to what we see here and now, but our brains can't even comprehend it.
The lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. Jesus was slain 2000 years ago. (I know that there are many ideas of what the foundation is, or what world are we talking about). both are correct, once you are outside of time, like God.
The same goes for will we go immediately to heaven when we die or have "soul sleep". One we would have no idea the difference (in our linear 3d minds), although I don't like the idea of being dead for x years. but two it doesn't matter, because once we are released from this temporal dwelling, we will also be outside of time, in fact we are now. We are seated at the right hand in Christ now. We aren't there physically, but we are there. The "we" just can't comprehend it because we are confined to these bodies and these 4 dimensions.
its kind of like this: I'm watching a movie at home. In this scenario, I'm outside of the dimensions and time. The people in the movie are in the 4d's. The end has already been declared from the beginning, you can fast forward, rewind, pause, go straight to the end and watch the end, its already laid down on the dvd. The people in the movie have no clue if you fast forward, stop, rewind, those things are outside of their normal dimensions (all that data stored in concentric rings on the dvd, the dvd is their universe).
This is probably confusing, I know I'm confused and I'm the one that wrote it :bigGrin:
This is not confusing at all. It is exactly where I have arrived- or at least what I understand at this present point in time. Especially this statement....
The lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. Jesus was slain 2000 years ago. (I know that there are many ideas of what the foundation is, or what world are we talking about). both are correct, once you are outside of time, like God.
Praise God, who lives in a realm beyond our grasp in this present time and is shrouded in mystery. Thank God for Jesus Christ who is The Bridge over which we are walking into the eternal realm. Come Holy Spirit! teach us all things and reveal to us things hidden from the foundation of the world. Bring us further into The Mystery ;o)
I think Eden can also be seen as the foundation of the world...
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 13, 2011, 04:51:56 PM
I think Eden can also be seen as the foundation of the world...
I think so, too...
Hebrews 9:26
Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
Acts 3:18-20
18 But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.
The lamb slain from the foundation of the world was "manifested" at the "consumation of the ages" leading me to believe that when you step outside of time you find that if all of existence is a sphere and within that sphere there is a smaller sphere, called the ages, then, at the center of that sphere there would be a "CENTER OF ALL THINGS" and that center would be the Word, a seed, that fell into the ground and died at the "consummation of the ages"- the "apex of all times and seasons"- the defining moment of every thing that was, is and will be- a manifestation of the heart of God, to sacrifice His beloved Son, the REASON FOR EVERYTHING. Then to raise that seed "declared to be the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead"- the "firstborn of many brothers"- in order to reveal perfect love fulfilled and, in a "dispensation suitable to the fulness/completion of times" "gather into one all things in Chist" until God becomes all in all and all is love, in love.
We, as members of that brtherhood, are entrusted with the ministry of reconciliation, for God, who was in Christ, "reconciling the world to Himself" has entrusted unto us the ministry of reconciliation. The whole creation eagerly awaits our reunion with Him, our "awakening", our "manifestation", our "resurrection"- the redemption of our bodies, at which time we will be "declared to be sons with power by the resurrection of the dead", and join our elder brother in earnest in the restoration of all things- to be fulfilled in the ages to come.
CELEBRATE DON"T DEBATE ;o)
Eph 1:8-10
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.
Are you gathering? or scattering? Peace.
Quote from: jabcat on August 04, 2011, 07:12:53 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 04, 2011, 05:32:10 AM
Is the present world with all its chaos, troubles, morality of the mankind, calamities, and sorrows... in the plan of The Creator...or is the world being controlled or lead by some other force?
I'd suggest satan is a tool to serve YHWH's purposes - that he must either a) ask permission, b) be told what to do, and/or c) allowed to do whatever he does. All to fulfill God's plan for mankind to have an experience of evil, and return to the Father whole and better for it. :2c:
Once again...agreed.
The word foundation is "archon". It is not so much "the beginning of" all things in terms of time - it is the "reason for all things" in terms of God's plan, purpose etc.n Hence Word, Incorruptible Seed, Christ crucified- the core of all revelation.
The undergirding "archon" of all that was, is and will be is the love of God as revealed to the creation through the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. That is "the light" because it overcomes the darkness, brings fruitfulness out of chaos, and reveals the divine nature, so that we can become partakers of it- which is the reason for EVERYTHING we see of God and experience in Him in this life.
If the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness? Religion, dogma, strife and contention- all darkness, chaos, vanity.
13 Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. 16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing. 17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. 18 And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
Here is how I understand this subject.
The word "God" is a family name, as (Eph. 3:14-15) says. Jesus told the Jews (John 10:34) is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods? Paul said there are many gods and many lords.
There is only ONE God the Father, who is above all, and ONE Lord Jesus Christ. Two separate individuals who was probably one individual before the separation. Jesus said "I came out of the Father, or from the Father. Jesus was a creation out or from God the Father. Jesus was the firstborn and first creation of the Father.
Back to the name "God". If God is a family name then we will all be called gods as Jesus said of the Jews because God is our Father. Say if your last name is Smith then all of your children go by the name Smith. The Father is always considered head of the family. The Father has the authority rank at the top. This is why Jesus never took credit for anything that he did, he always gave his Father the honor and glory for everything. Because God is Jesus' Father that makes us Jesus brothers and sisters.
We are all the family of God and that is why we have the name of God the Father. As it says in (1Cor. 11:3) that Jesus Christ is the head of every man, and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. This shows that God the Father is above all, even Christ.
Since Jesus Christ was our creator and no one has seen or heard the Father except Jesus I think it is Jesus who communicated with Israel and was the most talked about in the OT.
I do not see the Holy Spirit as being a person, I believe it is the Spirit or power of God the Father.
Just the way I view this subject. :2c: :happy3:
CHB
CHB, I think that is a perfectly legitimate perspective on the subject. It explains many apparent contradictions. To the extent I can see through the glass darkly- I agree.
Ephesians 3;14 For this reason I kneel before the Father,from whom His whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name. In pray,that
out of His glorious riches He may strengthen you with Power through His spirit in your inner being,so that Christ may dwell in your hearts
through faith.And I pray that you being rooted and established in love,may have power,togather with all the saints,to grasp
how wide,how long and high and deep is the love of Christ,and to know this love that surpasses knowledge- that you may be filled to the measure
of all the fullness of God
Quote from: CHB on August 13, 2011, 06:38:30 PM
Here is how I understand this subject.
The word "God" is a family name, as (Eph. 3:14-15) says. Jesus told the Jews (John 10:34) is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods? Paul said there are many gods and many lords.
There is only ONE God the Father, who is above all, and ONE Lord Jesus Christ. Two separate individuals who was probably one individual before the separation. Jesus said "I came out of the Father, or from the Father. Jesus was a creation out or from God the Father. Jesus was the firstborn and first creation of the Father.
Back to the name "God". If God is a family name then we will all be called gods as Jesus said of the Jews because God is our Father. Say if your last name is Smith then all of your children go by the name Smith. The Father is always considered head of the family. The Father has the authority rank at the top. This is why Jesus never took credit for anything that he did, he always gave his Father the honor and glory for everything. Because God is Jesus' Father that makes us Jesus brothers and sisters.
We are all the family of God and that is why we have the name of God the Father. As it says in (1Cor. 11:3) that Jesus Christ is the head of every man, and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. This shows that God the Father is above all, even Christ.
Since Jesus Christ was our creator and no one has seen or heard the Father except Jesus I think it is Jesus who communicated with Israel and was the most talked about in the OT.
I do not see the Holy Spirit as being a person, I believe it is the Spirit or power of God the Father.
Just the way I view this subject. :2c: :happy3:
CHB
I like your reasoning it is a great part of the whole said simply. There is only one thing I would add to this what you said
"I think it is Jesus who communicated with Israel and was the most talked about in the OT."
I believe that it was Jesus who spoke from Gen. 1:3 and continues thru Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;
My :2c: :happy3:
Quote from: sheila on August 13, 2011, 07:36:37 PM
Ephesians 3;14 For this reason I kneel before the Father,from whom His whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name. In pray,that
out of His glorious riches He may strengthen you with Power through His spirit in your inner being,so that Christ may dwell in your hearts
through faith.And I pray that you being rooted and established in love,may have power,togather with all the saints,to grasp
how wide,how long and high and deep is the love of Christ,and to know this love that surpasses knowledge- that you may be filled to the measure
of all the fullness of God
Glory!
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 11, 2011, 09:47:58 AM
Eaglesway, I find your report a good study. I too am still seeing through a glass darkly; still the Lord has moved in me to get away from the teachings of orthodox religion(especially christian) and seek the Holy Spirit for my teacher, and I find that all that I have been taught as a negative. The Lord has me to study under many inspired and learned men and woman who came out of the Latter Rain and Kingdom teaching. I will not name them, I am sure you know them as well. I thank you again for your report.
Peace and Love Through Jesus :bigGrin:
Grace..... and peace to us all as we seek his face together. :o)
All things were created 1 by him, and apart from him not one thing was created 2 that has been created. 3
If Jesus was created then this statement is false or misunderstood (by me).
Here we have an exception in a definite statement:
For he has put everything in subjection under his feet. 16 But when it says "everything" has been put in subjection, it is clear that this does not include the one who put everything in subjection to him. 15:28 And when all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will be subjected to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all.
We don't see any exceptions when describing Christ creating all things. Am I missing something? Who's got some windex?
Much windex is needed LOL Come Holy Spirit.
I think, by the reasoning you just presented a person would be safe to say that Jesus was not created. Yet the idea that he came out from God could mean He was birthed. Father to Son indicates that to me. However, I also have no problem with the theory that Jesus is co-eternal with the Father( I just don't believe He is co-equal, as rhm's verse from 1 cor 15 confirms).
Adam was not born. He was created, or as Micah prefers, "formed"- and as you have shown....he was formed by the Word and the word was God and was in God in the beginning.
But as the Word says, "The Father in me does the works" and " I can of mine own self do nothing".
yeesh! Words can be circles forming caves into traps and graves -or paths to follow towards the dawn. I don't want to dig any new "holes". I just want to follow the Word ;o)
Also we have Jesus a priest in the order of Melchizedek, having neither beginning nor ending of days, another verse that might indicate Jesus as being co-eternal with the Father. What is really mind bending to me is that if that were the case, then there would be entire orders of beings that were not created at all, but are somehow co-eternal with the Father- and I find that unlikely, because as RHM showed in the previous post, nothng has come into being that did not come into being through Him so- what does having neither beginning or ending of days mean?
Is there a verse that says He came out of the Father? Or came from the Father (where He is)?
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 14, 2011, 05:08:30 AM
All things were created 1 by him, and apart from him not one thing was created 2 that has been created. 3
If Jesus was created then this statement is false or misunderstood (by me).
Here we have an exception in a definite statement:
For he has put everything in subjection under his feet. 16 But when it says "everything" has been put in subjection, it is clear that this does not include the one who put everything in subjection to him. 15:28 And when all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will be subjected to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all.
We don't see any exceptions when describing Christ creating all things. Am I missing something? Who's got some windex?
Where do we find that Jesus was created?
Jesus IS the creation! Jesus is out from/of the Father and he is God for as I belvieve that Jesus' first words were
LET THERE BE LIGHT!Ok I see where you got it, I must have missed that.
Quote from: CHB on August 13, 2011, 06:38:30 PM
Here is how I understand this subject.
The word "God" is a family name, as (Eph. 3:14-15) says. Jesus told the Jews (John 10:34) is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods? Paul said there are many gods and many lords.
There is only ONE God the Father, who is above all, and ONE Lord Jesus Christ. Two separate individuals who was probably one individual before the separation. Jesus said "I came out of the Father, or from the Father. Jesus was a creation out or from God the Father. Jesus was the firstborn and first creation of the Father.
Back to the name "God". If God is a family name then we will all be called gods as Jesus said of the Jews because God is our Father. Say if your last name is Smith then all of your children go by the name Smith. The Father is always considered head of the family. The Father has the authority rank at the top. This is why Jesus never took credit for anything that he did, he always gave his Father the honor and glory for everything. Because God is Jesus' Father that makes us Jesus brothers and sisters.
We are all the family of God and that is why we have the name of God the Father. As it says in (1Cor. 11:3) that Jesus Christ is the head of every man, and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. This shows that God the Father is above all, even Christ.
Since Jesus Christ was our creator and no one has seen or heard the Father except Jesus I think it is Jesus who communicated with Israel and was the most talked about in the OT.
I do not see the Holy Spirit as being a person, I believe it is the Spirit or power of God the Father.
Just the way I view this subject. :2c: :happy3:
CHB
Joh 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Joh 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 14, 2011, 05:33:40 AM
Is there a verse that says He came out of the Father? Or came from the Father (where He is)?
Think there is Ill see. But Jesus had to come out of or from the Father, the Holy Spirit brought Him forth.
Thanks eaglesway! :happy3:
The word exerchomai could probably go either way, meaning to come from the place of, or to come out of. :dontknow:
I like in Revelation
Rev 21:23 And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb.
Jesus was sent. God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. The Lamb is the Lamp. God is the light shining from within the Lamp.
Jesus is the chief cornerstone unto which we all as living stones are being fitly joined for the purpose of building a habitation of God in the Spirit... the mortar is brothrly love.
Jesus is the firstborn of many brethren. All of these brethren are destined to complete the reconciliation of all things- born not of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. Chosen, elect, foreknown, predestined to take captive every thought that exalts itself against the true knowledge of God. Equipped with spiritual weapons, strengthened with might in out inner man, weapons of righteousness for the right hand and the left, mighty throu God for the pulling down of every tower and every stronghold that exalts itself against the true knowledge of God. Warring not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers of darkness the rulers of the hosts of wickedness in the heavenly realms.
In the end God will be ALL in ALL and we will KNOW as we are KNOWN. wow its all just so glorious. COMING SOON! JESUS- whom the heavens must receive until the times of the restoration of all things spoken of by all the prophets from the foundation of the world!
uplifting post, thanks.
Amen!!
Glory!!
Hallelujah!!
Yes! Amen and Glory! :bigGrin: Very good post :thumbsup:
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 14, 2011, 05:08:30 AM
All things were created 1 by him, and apart from him not one thing was created 2 that has been created. 3
If Jesus was created then this statement is false or misunderstood (by me).
The verse is followed by a list of what was created.
Father isn't on that list. Sounds obvious because He's eternal. But it also shows the list is limited.
I'll give an example that shows how I understand that verse.
Red really loves gardening. She marries a rich man that gives her a huge wasteland. --> And husband loved her and gave the whole land in her hand.
Red starts gardening. Creates irrigation. Digs ponds. Plants trees and flowers.
Some friends of the husband drop by and complement him on the garden.
No! no!, the husband answers, All things were planted by Red, and apart from Red not one thing was planted.
See, and Red isn't even eternal.
:winkgrin:
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 14, 2011, 05:33:40 AM
Is there a verse that says He came out of the Father? Or came from the Father (where He is)?
Begotten Son perhaps?
ACVJohn 118 No man has ever seen God. The only begotten Son, being in the bosom of the Father, that man reported him.
But I must admit that's a bit problematic when reading the verse below.
ACVActs 1333 as also it is written in the second psalm, Thou are my Son, today I have begotten thee.
Today is ~28AD
:dontknow:
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 14, 2011, 07:38:55 AM
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 14, 2011, 05:08:30 AM
All things were created 1 by him, and apart from him not one thing was created 2 that has been created. 3
If Jesus was created then this statement is false or misunderstood (by me).
The verse is followed by a list of what was created.
Father isn't on that list. Sounds obvious because He's eternal. But it also shows the list is limited.
I'll give an example that shows how I understand that verse.
Red really loves gardening. She marries a rich man that gives her a huge wasteland. --> And husband loved her and gave the whole land in her hand.
Red starts gardening. Creates irrigation. Digs ponds. Plants trees and flowers.
Some friends of the husband drop by and complement him on the garden.
No! no!, the husband answers, All things were planted by Red, and apart from Red not one thing was planted.
See, and Red isn't even eternal.
:winkgrin:
Great illustration.
Interesting perspective. I like it.
And aftre Red was done, she gave all of it back to her husband so they could rejoice together over it all in it all and through it all.
I am a he
In your story Red was a she. I was responding in the storyline :)
Actually it was WW's storyline I was responding to LOL
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 14, 2011, 08:12:43 PM
I am a he
Must be a gay marriage then because post #89 clearly states you are married with a man :pointlaugh:
TO DAY is always this very day, at least thats how I receive it.
Heb 3:7 For this reason--as the Holy Spirit warns us, "TO-DAY, IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, (WNT)
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 14, 2011, 09:35:41 PM
TO DAY is always this very day, at least thats how I receive it.
Heb 3:7 For this reason--as the Holy Spirit warns us, "TO-DAY, IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, (WNT)
Amen
Firstborn of many brethren
Many sons unto glory
Today i have begotten thee
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end, 15 while it is said,
"TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME."
Quote from: eaglesway on August 14, 2011, 06:46:01 AM
In the end God will be ALL in ALL and we will KNOW as we are KNOWN. wow its all just so glorious. COMING SOON! JESUS- whom the heavens must receive until the times of the restoration of all things spoken of by all the prophets from the foundation of the world!
The restoration of all things. I can't hardly wait. :happy3: Eaglesway, that was a very good post.
Someone ask about no beginning or ending of days? I tend to think the beginning of days didn't start till Adam was created. That might explain why Jesus had no beginning of days.
CHB
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 14, 2011, 07:38:55 AM
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 14, 2011, 05:08:30 AM
All things were created 1 by him, and apart from him not one thing was created 2 that has been created. 3
If Jesus was created then this statement is false or misunderstood (by me).
The verse is followed by a list of what was created.
Father isn't on that list. Sounds obvious because He's eternal. But it also shows the list is limited.
I'll give an example that shows how I understand that verse.
Red really loves gardening. She marries a rich man that gives her a huge wasteland. --> And husband loved her and gave the whole land in her hand.
Red starts gardening. Creates irrigation. Digs ponds. Plants trees and flowers.
Some friends of the husband drop by and complement him on the garden.
No! no!, the husband answers, All things were planted by Red, and apart from Red not one thing was planted.
See, and Red isn't even eternal.
:winkgrin:
The point I was making is that there is no exception given when describing all things created by Jesus, as in 1 Cor 15 , where all things are subjected except the Father,
same all things-->pas. By exception I mean saying except the son, who was created by the Father, or something to that effect
Col 1:16 for all things in heaven and on earth were created by him – all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, 1 whether principalities or powers – all things were created through him and for him.
Joh 1:3
All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created.
Rev 10:6
and swore by the one who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, and the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it,
I realize this isn't conclusive, just makes you wonder why Paul would give the exception in the one case, and not the other. If Jesus is created then He should fall into all things, a thing is created.
Joh 1:3 All thingsG3956 were madeG1096 byG1223 him;G846 andG2532 withoutG5565 himG846 was notG3761 any thingG1520 madeG1096 thatG3739 was made.G1096
I don't think created is a word that relates to Jesus. I think He is either:
1)Co-eternal with the Father(dwelling in the bosom of the Father until he was "manifested in these last times").... for confirmation, "Glorify me with the glory I had with you before the world was"
In my opininon, "before the world was signifies" the eternal realm where time is transcended by the NOW of the I AM who was and is and is to come(permeates the past present and future)
2)birthed from within the Father(came out from God), as opposed to created, because(as it is written) all created things came forth through Jesus, the Logos "By faith we know that the worlds were framed by the Word of God so that that which is unseen is greater than that which is seen". The seen, coming forth from the unseen, being lesser.(RHM's point about the exception is valid and possible but I just don't think Jesus was created- he was the seed, a son, from which all creation sprang forth as a tree- then he was "planted" "buried", so that He might spring up as the firstborn of many brethren a family of redeemers/reconcilers/restorers chosen foreknown elect predestined to set the creation free from futility into their own glorious liberty. ALPHA OMEGA
Jesus was appointed for sacrifice before anything came forth(the Logos, also meaning "the REASON", and the CORE REVELATION as per Heb 1:1-3), as well as appointed for the resurrection and the period of the restoration of all things(IMO). It is ALL about fellowship, koinonea, the creation, fallen, separated, chaotic, dying in death- receives REDEMPTION and RECONCILIATION through His blood, REVEALING His LOVE to ALL so that God becomes ALL IN ALL - the voice of God being like the rushing of many waters, like the voices of ten thousands of ten thousands praising God.
The square root of 100 billion is ten thousand HAHAHAHA Glory!
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, `Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham's coming--I am;'
Created by Him.
Obviously He didn't create Himself.
The reference point is the Son. Not the Father. I think that of great importance, and the answer, to your question Mister Red :laughing7:
Quote from: eaglesway on August 14, 2011, 05:24:38 AM
Much windex is needed LOL Come Holy Spirit.
I think, by the reasoning you just presented a person would be safe to say that Jesus was not created. Yet the idea that he came out from God could mean He was birthed. Father to Son indicates that to me. However, I also have no problem with the theory that Jesus is co-eternal with the Father( I just don't believe He is co-equal, as rhm's verse from 1 cor 15 confirms).
Adam was not born. He was created, or as Micah prefers, "formed"- and as you have shown....he was formed by the Word and the word was God and was in God in the beginning.
But as the Word says, "The Father in me does the works" and " I can of mine own self do nothing".
yeesh! Words can be circles forming caves into traps and graves -or paths to follow towards the dawn. I don't want to dig any new "holes". I just want to follow the Word ;o)
Also we have Jesus a priest in the order of Melchizedek, having neither beginning nor ending of days, another verse that might indicate Jesus as being co-eternal with the Father. What is really mind bending to me is that if that were the case, then there would be entire orders of beings that were not created at all, but are somehow co-eternal with the Father- and I find that unlikely, because as RHM showed in the previous post, nothng has come into being that did not come into being through Him so- what does having neither beginning or ending of days mean?
Good work eaglesway. But here is some info on the matter concerning other beings being in existence that were not created at all.
The scriptures show that the Son is called the Only begotten Son. So this means the Father has only One God Son, which means that all things were created by the God Son, who is of the Father.
The thing is that if God the Father who is from eternal, produces a kid, who is of the same being, after their own kind.. Then that being despite being born in due time, would poses the qualities of eternity as the Father. But yet we do see instances in the scriptures where the power of Jesus is not on par with the Father. So even though the Son is made in the Fathers own image, the power of the Son is not as great as the Father, since Jesus said, that the Father is greater than all. Even as the Father has life in himself so he has given the Son to have life in Himself. So we see that the Father is the life giver of All things, and that also includes the lifegiver to the Son, so that now the Son also has life within himself, so that he created the heavens and the earth.
I reason that even though the Son created the universe and the angelic host, perhaps the host did not worship the Son at that point in time, maybe only the Father was worshiped, until he the Son came to the world to be crucified. So that the Father is now pleased that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and Earth, having by inheritance obtained a better name that the angels, that they should worship Him. Until the fullness of time, when the Son Himself be subjected to the Father, so that God may be all in all.
Hi TT, please bear with me in some "speculation" :o)
It is easy to focus on "only" and minimize "begotten". Father "begets" son.
Our logic circles really prove nothing and don't get me wrong, I don't kno for sure either way, but IMO the Son does not "have" to be co-eternal with the Father because He is of the same essence. God can do and be whatever and whenever He wants.
However, there is no major denomination that will allow you to believe, even that the Son is co eternal but not co-equal ,and then allow you to be ordained, or in most cases, even fellowship. If you do not believe the Son is co-eternal, you are a devil from a cult, and you do not believe He is God so you are going to hell :o)
If you believe that God "begat" Jesus from within Himself in the beginning like a small sphere within a huge sphere for instance- you are a heretic or even a devil, but really, the concept does not violate anything in John chapter one. The Logos, as the smaller sphere would still be God and with God and In the beginning.
I am not sure what I believe(OMG!!!), or if I even believe it can be known with authority on this side of the veil- but I am highly suspect of ANY DOCTRINE that began among the bishops who became the Roman Catholic church, and over which people have been tortured and excommunicated from all the so-called "churches" that have come out of her.
What is seen through a glass darkly is just that, because "my ways are higher than your ways" and "if any man thinks he knows anything he knows not yet as he ought to know".
My whole point in these types of discussions is to point out the holes in the "logic" of dogmatists (I am not suggesting that you are one of those, I find you to be reasonable and open minded) always falls short in certain points. There are "possibilities" that cannot be reasonably eliminated and that should leave us all able to discuss them without fear of being cast as heretics or simpletons if we don't quite buy another persons view, or if we try to poke holes in some sects systematic theology :o)
The certification of some subjects as "above questioning" is one big reason we are in chaos/division/hostility in "churchianity" rather than in order, union and harmony in the New Jerusalem.
Jesus was "given" the name above every name because He pleased the Father
And, so it pleased the Father to "make all the fulness dwell in Him".
In Him dwells the fulness of the deity in bodily form.
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten(monogenes) from the Father, full of grace and truth.
These verses and so many more can be viewed from differing perspectives by reasonable people of good intent within the house of fellowship.
For instance:
It is possible that Jesus' Sonship is given, bestowed, as a result of obedience, not as a result of being in very nature God. Several verses indicate this (Phil 2:10,11;Acts 17:31) Jesus was tempted in all manner like as we are, because He found Himself born of a woman, born under law, born in sinful flesh. He overcame His flesh, which he inherited from his mother, (which she had from her father, Adam) by love for the Father- and thus overturned the sin matrix within the whole creation(yikes! :o).
That seed, planted, bearing fruit like unto itself, many sons unto glory! Born not of the will of the flesh or the will of man, but born of the will of God they will be revealed in glory and set the whole creation free from the sin matrix/death/chaos, etc. By that seed, the incorruptible seed implanted in our hearts, we are born again unto a "fervent love of the brethren". We have these great and precious promises that we may become partakers of the divine nature as the mustard seed becomes a tree in us. This is how we recognize one another as sons, and it is also how the world recognizes them(John 17, James 3:13-17, Acts 2 and 4, uh oh).
We are told God cannot be tempted with sin. I think it is trite to assert, "well the God in Jesus was not tempted, just the man". Listen, the God in me is not tempted either. Jesus was tempted "in all ways lie as we are". That indicates to me there are some things we may not fully understand about what Jesus was.
Peter declared(Act 2:32,33)
This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
The "right hand of God", being in the minds of biblical unitarians, the equivalent of Joseph at Pharoah's right hand "exercising all the power of Pharoah in his presence", by dispensation, is a workable theoretical view for me because Jesus Himself bears witness to the concept in many ways and the apostles define the relationship in that way in several places also.
Certainly this perspective can be drawn from 1 Cor 15:27,28 also
1Co 15:27 For "He has put all things under His feet."But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.
28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
These are all thoughts from my own musings- definitely not any attempt to advance a systematic theology or doctrine of the Godhead :dontknow: :HeartThrob:
The problem with systematic theologies is, Evrybody has one :laughing7:. Very few people ever really search through the possiblities presented in their "opponents" system. Hence the dogmatism and division.
I appreciate your post John. That's a great example of how to discuss this topic without using the hot-button terms and starting a spitting contest about them. Good thoughts on your understanding (and searching) of the scriptures. James.
Ya all pray for me now, ya hear :bigGrin: Yes eaglesway the Lord had you do a very good reasoning post :happyclap:
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 15, 2011, 04:41:26 AMJoh 8:58 Jesus said to them, `Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham's coming--I am;'
Concordant Literal Version Exo 3:14 Then Elohim spoke to Moses: I shall come to be just as I am coming to be. And He said: Thus shall you say to the sons of Israel, I-Shall-Come-to-Be has sent me to you.
This expression from Jesus' lips
"I am" (Greek
ego eimi) occurs throughout the Gospel of John and in no other text in John can it mean I AM, the God of the Old Testament. Go back to John 4:25-26 for instance. The woman at the well said to Jesus, "I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ); when that one comes, he will declare all things to us." And Jesus said to her, "I who speak with you am he." You will notice that in most Bibles that word
he is in italics. This means that the translators have correctly supplied a word in English that is not in the Greek but that nevertheless makes the intended sense quite clear. Here Jesus says to the woman - in the context of her question about the Messiah - that he is the Messiah, the Christ. "I who speak to you am
he." In the Greek it reads
ego eimi. Jesus simply says I am he, the Messiah. Definitely not "I am is the one speaking to you!"
In John 9 Jesus heals the blind man. Is this really the beggar who used to sit groping in the dark? Some people said, "Yes, it's him all right." Other said, "No, he just looks like him." But the beggar says, "
ego eimi!" And the translators have no problem writing, "I am the one." So why aren't the translators consistent? Why not capitalize what this man says as I AM? Because it is clear that he is not claiming to be the God of the Old Testament. Saying "I am" (
ego eimi) does not make somebody God in the Bible!
What Jesus is saying is simply "Before Abraham was born, I am
he," that is, "I am the Messiah."
Notice the context in John 8:56 where Jesus says, "Abraham rejoiced to see my day." By faith Abraham looked forward and saw the coming Messiah before he came in history. He believed the promise that God would send the Promised One. On the other hand these Jews did not believe that Jesus was their Messiah. They were claiming to be Abraham's descendents. Jesus said that this was impossible for they did not recognize him as their Messiah. But Jesus asserts that even before Abraham was born, he is the One who was always in God's plan. This Abraham believe and saw. The Messiah preexisted in God's plan and therefore in Abraham's believing mind, because he trusted the promise of God. Jesus positively did
not say, before Abraham was, I was." Also, Jesus did
not say, "Before Abraham was, I AM WHAT I AM."
The conclusion is inevitable. Jesus' claim "Before Abraham was born, I am
he" is the straightforward claim that he is the long promised one, the Messiah, the One in question. Jesus is the Savior in God's promise even before Abraham was born.
The Jewish leaders were very well aware of what Jesus was saying about himself! Jesus was not claiming to be God but the Son of God as Shown in John 19:7 . As they give very reason they wanted Him dead!
John 19:6 When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him. 7
The Jews answered him,
We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
John then seals the deal in John 20:31 but
these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.
Here John gives the very reason he wrote his Gospel, so that you would believe Jesus is the Messiah, Son of the living God.
Paul
Matthew 26:65
Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.
What was the blasphemy Jesus spoke? Why was it blasphemy?
Mark 14:64
Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.
Same questions.
John 10:33
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Same questions.
Are the priests so stupid that they don't know blasphemy when they see it?
Quote from: Molly on August 22, 2011, 05:27:09 AM
Are the priests so stupid that they don't know blasphemy when they see it?
:LH: :laughing7:
Great post Paul. And Jesus' rebuttal was not ,"I am God", it was "So what are you making such a big deal about me saying I am the son of God, doesnt your own law say, "You are all gods(elohym) and sons of the most high?"- which was also an insult because the rest of the verse says- "but you will all die like men" and believe me, the Pharisees knew that psalm well and took the meaning. In a way Jesus was actually making himself one of them and asking them why they were such unwilling and unrighteous representatives of the Father
Psalm 82:1-8 A Psalm of Asaph. (Amplified Bible)
GOD STANDS in the assembly [of the representatives] of God; in the midst of the magistrates or judges He gives judgment [as] among the gods.
How long will you [magistrates or judges] judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked? Selah [pause, and calmly think of that]!
Do justice to the weak (poor) and fatherless; maintain the rights of the afflicted and needy.
Deliver the poor and needy; rescue them out of the hand of the wicked.
[The magistrates and judges] know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in the darkness [of complacent satisfaction]; all the foundations of the earth [the fundamental principles upon which rests the administration of justice] are shaking.
I said, You are gods [since you judge on My behalf, as My representatives]; indeed, all of you are children of the Most High.
But you shall die as men and fall as one of the princes.
Arise, O God, judge the earth! For to You belong all the nations.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/christian_life/was_jesus_christ_created_or_begotten_3113.0.html
There is a longer thread about begotten somewhere. Unfortunately it's impossible to search Guest accounts :sigh:
The word [dabar] is begotten in the mind of God, not created. When the debar is sent forth, it is the agent by which all exists that exists, by the orderly arranging of the 22 letters of the Creator's alphabet in various ways to birth [yalad] whatever exists. The begetting takes place first, in the mind of God, as the begetting takes place first in the womb of the mother. The birth takes place afterward, out of God, as the birth takes place out of the mother.
Ron
very good posts,everyone. Something 'jumped out' at me,that Molly put on there.....'that thou being a man,makest thyself God" Going back to the
garden and tree of kogae...when the seducer said,you shall not die..but be like God,knowing good and evil[are ye not gods/look the man has become like one of us!]
irony of what they accused him of,they were guilty of. And how backwards...for what had occurred..was not man,making himself God, BUT GOD MAKING
HIMSELF MAN.
so, to me, the conclusion of the matter is..offspring of viper is 'man of sin' making himself God.[tokogae].and he will die....and offspring of Christ is "God making
Himself man[TOL] for this very reason..when you test the spirits...the adversary will not confess that 'the word of God come in flesh
Interesting, Sheila. I never thought before about humility and tenderness being attributes of God, although I have always recognized those qualities in him.
If one were really God become man, he would have those qualities, the same as Christ--making himself of no effect, but taking on the form of a servant.
It's kind of mind blowing. Especially since we humans are always trying to do the opposite.
For I know that my Redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:...
and... in my flesh I shall see God.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATBLXyJxyTI
HE.....IS>>>>BEAUTIFUL!!!
Quote from: Molly on August 22, 2011, 07:57:30 PM
Interesting, Sheila. I never thought before about humility and tenderness being attributes of God, although I have always recognized those qualities in him.
If one were really God become man, he would have those qualities, the same as Christ--making himself of no effect, but taking on the form of a servant.
It's kind of mind blowing. Especially since we humans are always trying to do the opposite.
For I know that my Redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:...
and... in my flesh I shall see God.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATBLXyJxyTI
You might enjoy this scripture Molly
Isaiah 57:15
For thus saith the high and lofty One who inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy: "I dwell in the high and holy place with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
Quote from: eaglesway on August 22, 2011, 04:04:43 AM
Hi TT, please bear with me in some "speculation" :o)
It is easy to focus on "only" and minimize "begotten". Father "begets" son.
------
Yes I think many don't focus on the beget part and the Son part.
TT
Our logic circles really prove nothing and don't get me wrong, I don't kno for sure either way, but IMO the Son does not "have" to be co-eternal with the Father because He is of the same essence. God can do and be whatever and whenever He wants.
However, there is no major denomination that will allow you to believe, even that the Son is co eternal but not co-equal ,and then allow you to be ordained, or in most cases, even fellowship. If you do not believe the Son is co-eternal, you are a devil from a cult, and you do not believe He is God so you are going to hell :o)
-----------
Yeah I know, my views are slightly unorthodox, but I don't believe they diminish the Godness of Jesus. Just that many in the church are so used to seeing Jesus in a certain manner, so when a new view comes along they become worried.
TT
If you believe that God "begat" Jesus from within Himself in the beginning like a small sphere within a huge sphere for instance- you are a heretic or even a devil, but really, the concept does not violate anything in John chapter one. The Logos, as the smaller sphere would still be God and with God and In the beginning.
TT
Thank you, I'm glad you understand the concept of what I believe, without violating John chapter 1.
I am not sure what I believe(OMG!!!), or if I even believe it can be known with authority on this side of the veil- but I am highly suspect of ANY DOCTRINE that began among the bishops who became the Roman Catholic church, and over which people have been tortured and excommunicated from all the so-called "churches" that have come out of her.
TT
Interesting you bring that up. Recently I have come across catholic webstes, which make the point that during protestant revolution the history books were altered so that to make the catholic church the enemy, so that there would be division. This is new material to me and I have been led to believe in the past that the catholic church killed many millions of herectics and that the true church went underground. But now those beliefs have been challenged and I must revaluate the history of the catholic church. One I cannot deny that the catholic chruch produced many saints of God and it seemed strange that an evil pagan type church would produce holy saints of God
TT
What is seen through a glass darkly is just that, because "my ways are higher than your ways" and "if any man thinks he knows anything he knows not yet as he ought to know".
My whole point in these types of discussions is to point out the holes in the "logic" of dogmatists (I am not suggesting that you are one of those, I find you to be reasonable and open minded) always falls short in certain points. There are "possibilities" that cannot be reasonably eliminated and that should leave us all able to discuss them without fear of being cast as heretics or simpletons if we don't quite buy another persons view, or if we try to poke holes in some sects systematic theology :o)
The certification of some subjects as "above questioning" is one big reason we are in chaos/division/hostility in "churchianity" rather than in order, union and harmony in the New Jerusalem.
Jesus was "given" the name above every name because He pleased the Father
And, so it pleased the Father to "make all the fulness dwell in Him".
In Him dwells the fulness of the deity in bodily form.
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten(monogenes) from the Father, full of grace and truth.
These verses and so many more can be viewed from differing perspectives by reasonable people of good intent within the house of fellowship.
For instance:
It is possible that Jesus' Sonship is given, bestowed, as a result of obedience, not as a result of being in very nature God. Several verses indicate this (Phil 2:10,11;Acts 17:31) Jesus was tempted in all manner like as we are, because He found Himself born of a woman, born under law, born in sinful flesh. He overcame His flesh, which he inherited from his mother, (which she had from her father, Adam) by love for the Father- and thus overturned the sin matrix within the whole creation(yikes! :o).
That seed, planted, bearing fruit like unto itself, many sons unto glory! Born not of the will of the flesh or the will of man, but born of the will of God they will be revealed in glory and set the whole creation free from the sin matrix/death/chaos, etc. By that seed, the incorruptible seed implanted in our hearts, we are born again unto a "fervent love of the brethren". We have these great and precious promises that we may become partakers of the divine nature as the mustard seed becomes a tree in us. This is how we recognize one another as sons, and it is also how the world recognizes them(John 17, James 3:13-17, Acts 2 and 4, uh oh).
We are told God cannot be tempted with sin. I think it is trite to assert, "well the God in Jesus was not tempted, just the man". Listen, the God in me is not tempted either. Jesus was tempted "in all ways lie as we are". That indicates to me there are some things we may not fully understand about what Jesus was.
Peter declared(Act 2:32,33)
This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
The "right hand of God", being in the minds of biblical unitarians, the equivalent of Joseph at Pharoah's right hand "exercising all the power of Pharoah in his presence", by dispensation, is a workable theoretical view for me because Jesus Himself bears witness to the concept in many ways and the apostles define the relationship in that way in several places also.
Certainly this perspective can be drawn from 1 Cor 15:27,28 also
1Co 15:27 For "He has put all things under His feet."But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.
28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
These are all thoughts from my own musings- definitely not any attempt to advance a systematic theology or doctrine of the Godhead :dontknow: :HeartThrob:
The problem with systematic theologies is, Evrybody has one :laughing7:. Very few people ever really search through the possiblities presented in their "opponents" system. Hence the dogmatism and division.
TT
That is true. But the scriptures demand and needs a church with order. For thousands of years the church has been split up over doctrines and become weak. I believe God wants to unite the church.
There are certain things I dislike about scriptures, regarding church rules etc. I do not like the idea of excommunicating or casting away the brother etc, but this is what the scriptures teach. But even those teachings have been abused by the church, where even a slight tumbling causes over zealous excommunicating, I guess it;s a matter of trusting Gods judgement, trusted to holy men of God. If there are no holy men leading the church, then there is no church, only a wolf fleecing and devouring the flock, so better to leave, until God provides sheperds, who judge with righteous judgment and are able to exercise divine authority.
Quote from: eaglesway on August 22, 2011, 08:42:21 AM
Great post Paul. And Jesus' rebuttal was not ,"I am God", it was "So what are you making such a big deal about me saying I am the son of God, doesnt your own law say, "You are all gods(elohym) and sons of the most high?"- which was also an insult because the rest of the verse says- "but you will all die like men" and believe me, the Pharisees knew that psalm well and took the meaning. In a way Jesus was actually making himself one of them and asking them why they were such unwilling and unrighteous representatives of the Father
Eaglesway my post was not intended for you... I was simply showing Micah7:9 the correct understanding of John 8:58 as it was quoted with out comment as if everyone would understand it's meaning. Your reading into my post... not out of my post. My post had nothing to do with docterine or beliefs, just the understanding of a simple verse... :thumbsup:
Now I will share with you the simple Hebraic understanding of... Son of God! (No theology of docterine attached)
Son of God - This title for Jesus has been given meanings and attributes that were never intended. People have erroneously used the human father-son relationship to describe this title of Jesus'. They have thought that since a human son has the actual essence (made of the same matter) of his father, that therefore, this title implies that Jesus being the Son of God is of the same essence of God.
Son of God - In the Old Testament Israel is described as God's first-born (Exodus 4:22) and is called His son. There is therefore precedence for calling the Messiah "Son of God" for he is Israel's representative par excellence (ZEB, vol.4, pg.203-204).
"Son of God" denotes an intimate relationship with the Father. It is obvious that sonship must not be understood in a crude pagan way. This bears out Dalman's contention that the Hebrew concept of
"son" does not denote an extensive circle of relationships" (ZEB, vol.4, pg. 205). Adam was called the
"son of God" (Luke 3:38), God calls King Solomon His
"son" in 1 Chronicles 28:6.
For Paul,
"Son of God" is essentially a Christological description expressing
"the Son's solidarity with God" (ZEB, vol.4, pg.204). Closeness to the Father is the basic meaning of
"Son of God" (Ibid). This closeness was a relationship that was shared by God's anointed kings of Israel. Since Jesus is the ideal king of Israel, he is naturally the ideal Son of God. This is how the term came to be synonymous with Messiah and king of Israel. They are all different ways of saying the same thing.
The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible vol. 4 pg. 204 states:
"The last chapter of the first epistle of John makes every possible emphasis upon the principle that Sonship is the mark of Messiahship. The same is the case with the fourth gospel where the Son of God is synonymous with Messiah and occurs more frequently than any other title. Haenchen maintains that the same equation: Messiah = Son of God = Son of Man applies to Mark's gospel. The same can be said of the rest of the New Testament."Aspects of Monotheism pg.90 states:
"The notion that the Davidic king was the son of God is well established in the Hebrew Bible in 2 Samuel 7:14 and in Psalm 2:7. It was only natural then that the coming messianic king should also be regarded as the Son of God. To say that the king was the son of God, however, does not necessarily imply divinization."This is the meaning of the title
"Son of God." Messiah = Son of God = king of Israel = Son of Man. The Messiah does have the closest and most intimate relationship with the Father. Let's take a look at some verses to confirm this.
"The kings of the earth rise up, and the princes conspire together against the LORD and His anointed (Messiah)"... "I myself have set up my king on Zion (Israel)"... "The LORD said to me, "You are my son" (Psalm 2:2,6-7).Here we see God speaking of the Messiah using all three titles;
Messiah, king of Zion, and son. "He first found his own brother and told him, "We have found the Messiah"..."Rabbi, you are the Son of God: you are the King of Israel" (John 1:41& 49).
John cannot be clearer on this title; the Son of God is the King of Israel. This is the Jewish meaning of
"Son of God." Any other definition will take away from the true meaning of the title into something that was never intended by its Jewish author.
Paul
"Eaglesway my post was not intended for you... I was simply showing Micah7:9 the correct understanding of John 8:58 as it was quoted with out comment as if everyone would understand it's meaning. "
I thank you but I see no reason for a correction, Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Verily, verily, I am saying to you, Ere Abraham came into being, I am."
Does not everyone, at least on this forum know who I AM is? The "he" is added :bigGrin:
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 23, 2011, 05:39:09 AM
"Eaglesway my post was not intended for you... I was simply showing Micah7:9 the correct understanding of John 8:58 as it was quoted with out comment as if everyone would understand it's meaning. "
I thank you but I see no reason for a correction, Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Verily, verily, I am saying to you, Ere Abraham came into being, I am."
Does not everyone, at least on this forum know who I AM is? The "he" is added :bigGrin:
Joh 9:1 As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth.
Joh 9:2 And His disciples asked Him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?"
Joh 9:3 Jesus answered, "It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.
Joh 9:4 "We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.
Joh 9:5 "While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world."
Joh 9:6 When He had said this, He spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and applied the clay to his eyes,
Joh 9:7 and said to him, "Go, wash in the pool of Siloam" (which is translated, Sent). So he went away and washed, and came back seeing.
Joh 9:8 Therefore the neighbors, and those who previously saw him as a beggar, were saying, "Is not this the one who used to sit and beg?"
Joh 9:9 Others were saying, "This is he," still others were saying, "No, but he is like him."
He kept saying, "I AM." Perhaps everyone on this forum knows the same about the blind man, as he spoke the same words as Jesus!
What's your point?
Paul
Quote from: Pierac on August 23, 2011, 05:07:31 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on August 22, 2011, 08:42:21 AM
Great post Paul. And Jesus' rebuttal was not ,"I am God", it was "So what are you making such a big deal about me saying I am the son of God, doesnt your own law say, "You are all gods(elohym) and sons of the most high?"- which was also an insult because the rest of the verse says- "but you will all die like men" and believe me, the Pharisees knew that psalm well and took the meaning. In a way Jesus was actually making himself one of them and asking them why they were such unwilling and unrighteous representatives of the Father
Eaglesway my post was not intended for you... I was simply showing Micah7:9 the correct understanding of John 8:58 as it was quoted with out comment as if everyone would understand it's meaning. Your reading into my post... not out of my post. My post had nothing to do with docterine or beliefs, just the understanding of a simple verse... :thumbsup:
Now I will share with you the simple Hebraic understanding of... Son of God! (No theology of docterine attached)
Son of God - This title for Jesus has been given meanings and attributes that were never intended. People have erroneously used the human father-son relationship to describe this title of Jesus'. They have thought that since a human son has the actual essence (made of the same matter) of his father, that therefore, this title implies that Jesus being the Son of God is of the same essence of God.
Son of God - In the Old Testament Israel is described as God's first-born (Exodus 4:22) and is called His son. There is therefore precedence for calling the Messiah "Son of God" for he is Israel's representative par excellence (ZEB, vol.4, pg.203-204).
"Son of God" denotes an intimate relationship with the Father. It is obvious that sonship must not be understood in a crude pagan way. This bears out Dalman's contention that the Hebrew concept of "son" does not denote an extensive circle of relationships" (ZEB, vol.4, pg. 205). Adam was called the "son of God" (Luke 3:38), God calls King Solomon His "son" in 1 Chronicles 28:6.
For Paul, "Son of God" is essentially a Christological description expressing "the Son's solidarity with God" (ZEB, vol.4, pg.204). Closeness to the Father is the basic meaning of "Son of God" (Ibid). This closeness was a relationship that was shared by God's anointed kings of Israel. Since Jesus is the ideal king of Israel, he is naturally the ideal Son of God. This is how the term came to be synonymous with Messiah and king of Israel. They are all different ways of saying the same thing.
The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible vol. 4 pg. 204 states:
"The last chapter of the first epistle of John makes every possible emphasis upon the principle that Sonship is the mark of Messiahship. The same is the case with the fourth gospel where the Son of God is synonymous with Messiah and occurs more frequently than any other title. Haenchen maintains that the same equation:
Messiah = Son of God = Son of Man applies to Mark's gospel. The same can be said of the rest of the New Testament."
Aspects of Monotheism pg.90 states:
"The notion that the Davidic king was the son of God is well established in the Hebrew Bible in 2 Samuel 7:14 and in Psalm 2:7. It was only natural then that the coming messianic king should also be regarded as the Son of God. To say that the king was the son of God, however, does not necessarily imply divinization."
This is the meaning of the title "Son of God." Messiah = Son of God = king of Israel = Son of Man. The Messiah does have the closest and most intimate relationship with the Father. Let's take a look at some verses to confirm this.
"The kings of the earth rise up, and the princes conspire together against the LORD and His anointed (Messiah)"... "I myself have set up my king on Zion (Israel)"... "The LORD said to me, "You are my son" (Psalm 2:2,6-7).
Here we see God speaking of the Messiah using all three titles; Messiah, king of Zion, and son.
"He first found his own brother and told him, "We have found the Messiah"..."Rabbi, you are the Son of God: you are the King of Israel" (John 1:41& 49).
John cannot be clearer on this title; the Son of God is the King of Israel. This is the Jewish meaning of "Son of God." Any other definition will take away from the true meaning of the title into something that was never intended by its Jewish author.
Paul
That was a great post too Paul, with the exception of the fact that you seem to assert that you have wrapped up the entire controversy in your post, to the satisfaction of anyone who has eyes to see that you completely understand it. I think there is a little deeper mystery than that. In my opinion, John asserted many interesting things about Jesus in his narration. I think some of those things may exceed the parameters you set forth, if I am understanding you correctly.
Quote from: Pierac on August 23, 2011, 06:12:55 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 23, 2011, 05:39:09 AM
"Eaglesway my post was not intended for you... I was simply showing Micah7:9 the correct understanding of John 8:58 as it was quoted with out comment as if everyone would understand it's meaning. "
I thank you but I see no reason for a correction, Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Verily, verily, I am saying to you, Ere Abraham came into being, I am."
Does not everyone, at least on this forum know who I AM is? The "he" is added :bigGrin:
Joh 9:1 As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth.
Joh 9:2 And His disciples asked Him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?"
Joh 9:3 Jesus answered, "It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.
Joh 9:4 "We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.
Joh 9:5 "While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world."
Joh 9:6 When He had said this, He spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and applied the clay to his eyes,
Joh 9:7 and said to him, "Go, wash in the pool of Siloam" (which is translated, Sent). So he went away and washed, and came back seeing.
Joh 9:8 Therefore the neighbors, and those who previously saw him as a beggar, were saying, "Is not this the one who used to sit and beg?"
Joh 9:9 Others were saying, "This is he," still others were saying, "No, but he is like him." He kept saying, "I AM."
Perhaps everyone on this forum knows the same about the blind man, as he spoke the same words as Jesus!
What's your point?
Paul
When Jesus says I AM He is saying I AM. He is I AM and there is a great difference when Jesus says I AM
(YLT) when, therefore, he said to them--`I am he ,' they went away backward, and fell to the ground.
I believe that those 3 letters He spoke was the power that sent them backwards. The "he"I find is in italics, not in original?
At least thats how I have been given to understand I AM.
"What Jesus is saying is simply "Before Abraham was born, I am he," that is, "I am the Messiah.""Paul
Yes He is the Messiah, but He is much more that the Messiah, He is God.
Quote from: eaglesway on August 23, 2011, 07:18:44 AM
Quote from: Pierac on August 23, 2011, 05:07:31 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on August 22, 2011, 08:42:21 AM
Great post Paul. And Jesus' rebuttal was not ,"I am God", it was "So what are you making such a big deal about me saying I am the son of God, doesnt your own law say, "You are all gods(elohym) and sons of the most high?"- which was also an insult because the rest of the verse says- "but you will all die like men" and believe me, the Pharisees knew that psalm well and took the meaning. In a way Jesus was actually making himself one of them and asking them why they were such unwilling and unrighteous representatives of the Father
Eaglesway my post was not intended for you... I was simply showing Micah7:9 the correct understanding of John 8:58 as it was quoted with out comment as if everyone would understand it's meaning. Your reading into my post... not out of my post. My post had nothing to do with docterine or beliefs, just the understanding of a simple verse... :thumbsup:
Now I will share with you the simple Hebraic understanding of... Son of God! (No theology of docterine attached)
Son of God - This title for Jesus has been given meanings and attributes that were never intended. People have erroneously used the human father-son relationship to describe this title of Jesus'. They have thought that since a human son has the actual essence (made of the same matter) of his father, that therefore, this title implies that Jesus being the Son of God is of the same essence of God.
Son of God - In the Old Testament Israel is described as God's first-born (Exodus 4:22) and is called His son. There is therefore precedence for calling the Messiah "Son of God" for he is Israel's representative par excellence (ZEB, vol.4, pg.203-204).
"Son of God" denotes an intimate relationship with the Father. It is obvious that sonship must not be understood in a crude pagan way. This bears out Dalman's contention that the Hebrew concept of "son" does not denote an extensive circle of relationships" (ZEB, vol.4, pg. 205). Adam was called the "son of God" (Luke 3:38), God calls King Solomon His "son" in 1 Chronicles 28:6.
For Paul, "Son of God" is essentially a Christological description expressing "the Son's solidarity with God" (ZEB, vol.4, pg.204). Closeness to the Father is the basic meaning of "Son of God" (Ibid). This closeness was a relationship that was shared by God's anointed kings of Israel. Since Jesus is the ideal king of Israel, he is naturally the ideal Son of God. This is how the term came to be synonymous with Messiah and king of Israel. They are all different ways of saying the same thing.
The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible vol. 4 pg. 204 states:
"The last chapter of the first epistle of John makes every possible emphasis upon the principle that Sonship is the mark of Messiahship. The same is the case with the fourth gospel where the Son of God is synonymous with Messiah and occurs more frequently than any other title. Haenchen maintains that the same equation:
Messiah = Son of God = Son of Man applies to Mark's gospel. The same can be said of the rest of the New Testament."
Aspects of Monotheism pg.90 states:
"The notion that the Davidic king was the son of God is well established in the Hebrew Bible in 2 Samuel 7:14 and in Psalm 2:7. It was only natural then that the coming messianic king should also be regarded as the Son of God. To say that the king was the son of God, however, does not necessarily imply divinization."
This is the meaning of the title "Son of God." Messiah = Son of God = king of Israel = Son of Man. The Messiah does have the closest and most intimate relationship with the Father. Let's take a look at some verses to confirm this.
"The kings of the earth rise up, and the princes conspire together against the LORD and His anointed (Messiah)"... "I myself have set up my king on Zion (Israel)"... "The LORD said to me, "You are my son" (Psalm 2:2,6-7).
Here we see God speaking of the Messiah using all three titles; Messiah, king of Zion, and son.
"He first found his own brother and told him, "We have found the Messiah"..."Rabbi, you are the Son of God: you are the King of Israel" (John 1:41& 49).
John cannot be clearer on this title; the Son of God is the King of Israel. This is the Jewish meaning of "Son of God." Any other definition will take away from the true meaning of the title into something that was never intended by its Jewish author.
Paul
That was a great post too Paul, with the exception of the fact that you seem to assert that you have wrapped up the entire controversy in your post, to the satisfaction of anyone who has eyes to see that you completely understand it. I think there is a little deeper mystery than that. In my opinion, John asserted many interesting things about Jesus in his narration. I think some of those things may exceed the parameters you set forth, if I am understanding you correctly.
Again, I was not addressing any controversy in my post! I was simply trying to explain the Hebraic understanding of
"Son of God". Your misinterpretation of my explanation of a simple verse in John for another poster and my revelation of the Hebraic meaning of the biblical term
"Son of God" offered for you some how.... wraps up the entire controversy is confusing to me.
What controversy are you talking about? :dontknow:
Paul
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 23, 2011, 08:05:32 AM
Quote from: Pierac on August 23, 2011, 06:12:55 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 23, 2011, 05:39:09 AM
"Eaglesway my post was not intended for you... I was simply showing Micah7:9 the correct understanding of John 8:58 as it was quoted with out comment as if everyone would understand it's meaning. "
I thank you but I see no reason for a correction, Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Verily, verily, I am saying to you, Ere Abraham came into being, I am."
Does not everyone, at least on this forum know who I AM is? The "he" is added :bigGrin:
Joh 9:1 As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth.
Joh 9:2 And His disciples asked Him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?"
Joh 9:3 Jesus answered, "It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.
Joh 9:4 "We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.
Joh 9:5 "While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world."
Joh 9:6 When He had said this, He spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and applied the clay to his eyes,
Joh 9:7 and said to him, "Go, wash in the pool of Siloam" (which is translated, Sent). So he went away and washed, and came back seeing.
Joh 9:8 Therefore the neighbors, and those who previously saw him as a beggar, were saying, "Is not this the one who used to sit and beg?"
Joh 9:9 Others were saying, "This is he," still others were saying, "No, but he is like him." He kept saying, "I AM."
Perhaps everyone on this forum knows the same about the blind man, as he spoke the same words as Jesus!
What's your point?
Paul
When Jesus says I AM He is saying I AM. He is I AM and there is a great difference when Jesus says I AM
(YLT) when, therefore, he said to them--`I am he ,' they went away backward, and fell to the ground.
I believe that those 3 letters He spoke was the power that sent them backwards. The "he"I find is in italics, not in original?
At least thats how I have been given to understand I AM.
The problem is Jesus did not speak those 3 little letters. Those 3 little letters are what your translators want you to see... Check your Greek... Jesus said!
ἐγώ εἰμί (egō eimi)
KJV Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Now we shall read the same verse from the Greek Septuagint
Septuagint Exo 3:14 και ειπεν ο θεος προς μωυσην [εγω ειμι ο ων] και ειπεν ουτως ερεις τοις υιοις ισραηλ [ο ων] απεσταλκεν με προς υμας
Note the two separate Greek words used for '
am' Jesus did not speak these.... (
ο ων) I am's
Concordant Literal Version Exo 3:14 Then Elohim spoke to Moses: I shall come to be just as I am coming to be. And He said: Thus shall you say to the sons of Israel, I-Shall-Come-to-Be has sent me to you.
Now when translated literally you get a whole different look. What happened to the other I am's?
The Hebrew Bible uses the word (hâyâh H1961) in the place of "Am" which is a verb meaning
to exist, to be.
Check the Strongs' number.
Clearly Jesus did not say (εγω ειμι ο ων) nor did he state (ο ων), So again in John 8:58. Jesus spoke the words (εγω ειμι) just like other people in the bible who are saying
I AM(
εγω ειμι) . Your forcing a square block in a round circle, and it does not fit!
Paul
Okay Okay :sorry: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: PaulYour forcing a square block in a round circle, and it does not fit!
So why did the Pharisees go to stone him when he said, I AM? Why did the soldiers fall backwards to the ground?
Were they fitting a square peg in a round hole, too? There was no one there to explain their language to them?
All of these translators got it wrong?
New International Version (©1984)
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
New Living Translation (©2007)
God replied to Moses, "I Am Who I Am. Say this to the people of Israel: I Am has sent me to you."
English Standard Version (©2001)
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
God answered Moses, "I Am Who I Am. This is what you must say to the people of Israel: 'I Am has sent me to you.'"
King James Bible
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
American King James Version
And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shall you say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.
American Standard Version
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Bible in Basic English
And God said to him, I AM WHAT I AM: and he said, Say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.
Douay-Rheims Bible
God said to Moses: I AM WHO AM. He said: Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: HE WHO IS, hath sent me to you.
Darby Bible Translation
And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM. And he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you.
English Revised Version
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Webster's Bible Translation
And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM: And he said, Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me to you.
World English Bible
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM," and he said, "You shall tell the children of Israel this: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
Young's Literal Translation
And God saith unto Moses, 'I AM THAT WHICH I AM;' He saith also, 'Thus dost thou say to the sons of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.'
All of these translators got it wrong?
New International Version (©1984)
"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
New Living Translation (©2007)
Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!"
English Standard Version (©2001)
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
International Standard Version (©2008)
Jesus said to them, "Truly, I tell all of you with certainty, before there was an Abraham, I AM!"
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Jesus told them, "I can guarantee this truth: Before Abraham was ever born, I am."
King James Bible
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
American King James Version
Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham was, I am.
American Standard Version
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was born, I am.
Bible in Basic English
Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I am.
Douay-Rheims Bible
Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am.
Darby Bible Translation
Jesus said to them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
English Revised Version
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Webster's Bible Translation
Jesus said to them, Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Weymouth New Testament
"In most solemn truth," answered Jesus, "I tell you that before Abraham came into existence, I am."
World English Bible
Jesus said to them, "Most certainly, I tell you, before Abraham came into existence, I AM."
Young's Literal Translation
Jesus said to them, 'Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham's coming -- I am;'
It's not available electronically. Here's what the Christian Bible (1991) says - (claimed as one of, if not the most literal translation available);
Yesu said to them, "Amen, Amen, ['truly, truly'], I say to you+, before Abraham came into being, 'I AM' [this is the contracted translation (Isa. 41:4, 47:8) of God's name in the Old Contract Writings; Yehweh ('I am, was, and will be' Exo 3:14)]."
I believe we can agree that God is the Father, over all (Jesus prayed to His Father and called YHWH HIS God); Jesus is God's Son, our Savior; Jesus said when He ascended, that He would send the Holy Spirit, which occurred at Pentecost. Those things are clearly documented in the scriptures, amen?
----------------------
OP
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 04, 2011, 05:32:10 AM
Is the present world with all its chaos, troubles, morality of the mankind, calamities, and sorrows... in the plan of The Creator...or is the world being controlled or lead by some other force?
Not sure but somewhere in the OT is a verse stating that the Messiah was not allowed to reveal Himself.
If that's the case the I'm he are not references to divinity.
Maybe Revelation, the unveiling of Christ, is a hint in that direction.
:dontknow:
Quote from: jabcat on August 23, 2011, 10:36:56 AM
I believe we can agree that God is the Father, over all (Jesus prayed to His Father and called YHWH HIS God); Jesus is God's Son, our Savior; Jesus said when He ascended, that He would send the Holy Spirit, which occurred at Pentecost. Those things are clearly documented in the scriptures, amen?
Amen, I think thats all we need to know, and probably will (fully) this side of the veil. All the rest is gravy, intellectual exercise. I'm not saying we shouldn't try and figure it out, but that it shouldn't cause division (not aimed at the people posting in this topic, thinking more of christianity in general)
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 23, 2011, 02:45:35 PM
Not sure but somewhere in the OT is a verse stating that the Messiah was not allowed to reveal Himself.
If that's the case the I'm he are not references to divinity.
Maybe Revelation, the unveiling of Christ, is a hint in that direction.
:dontknow:
Where is that verse?
I read somewhere I think on this forum, that Jesus sometimes hid his divinity, for practical reasons. But other times he revealed to his disciples and also to the pharisses who then would try and stone him.
Quote from: jabcat on August 23, 2011, 10:36:56 AM
I believe we can agree that God is the Father, over all (Jesus prayed to His Father and called YHWH HIS God); Jesus is God's Son, our Savior; Jesus said when He ascended, that He would send the Holy Spirit, which occurred at Pentecost. Those things are clearly documented in the scriptures, amen?
----------------------
Amen. I think alot of this stems from various writings that Jesus was not Gods Son. I think we have to be careful not to allow these writings to take away our faith in Jesus christ. Many of these writings will only present half the picture and leave out the scriptures that talk of Gods divinity. e.g I came down from heaven to do fathers will.
Quote from: jabcat on August 23, 2011, 10:34:42 AM
It's not available electronically. Here's what the Christian Bible (1991) says - (claimed as one of, if not the most literal translation available);
Yesu said to them, "Amen, Amen, ['truly, truly'], I say to you+, before Abraham came into being, 'I AM' [this is the contracted translation (Isa. 41:4, 47:8) of God's name in the Old Contract Writings; Yehweh ('I am, was, and will be' Exo 3:14)]."
I love that Christian Bible. :happygrin:
Quote from: JabYehweh ('I am, was, and will be' Exo 3:14)]."
Christian Bible is saying here, YHWH is Jesus.
7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord,
which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
--from the Revelation of Jesus Christ, Chapter 1
1, 2 ,3 testing, testing.
Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord God almighty
Quote from: Pierac on August 23, 2011, 08:06:13 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on August 23, 2011, 07:18:44 AM
Quote from: Pierac on August 23, 2011, 05:07:31 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on August 22, 2011, 08:42:21 AM
Great post Paul. And Jesus' rebuttal was not ,"I am God", it was "So what are you making such a big deal about me saying I am the son of God, doesnt your own law say, "You are all gods(elohym) and sons of the most high?"- which was also an insult because the rest of the verse says- "but you will all die like men" and believe me, the Pharisees knew that psalm well and took the meaning. In a way Jesus was actually making himself one of them and asking them why they were such unwilling and unrighteous representatives of the Father
Eaglesway my post was not intended for you... I was simply showing Micah7:9 the correct understanding of John 8:58 as it was quoted with out comment as if everyone would understand it's meaning. Your reading into my post... not out of my post. My post had nothing to do with docterine or beliefs, just the understanding of a simple verse... :thumbsup:
Now I will share with you the simple Hebraic understanding of... Son of God! (No theology of docterine attached)
Son of God - This title for Jesus has been given meanings and attributes that were never intended. People have erroneously used the human father-son relationship to describe this title of Jesus'. They have thought that since a human son has the actual essence (made of the same matter) of his father, that therefore, this title implies that Jesus being the Son of God is of the same essence of God.
Son of God - In the Old Testament Israel is described as God's first-born (Exodus 4:22) and is called His son. There is therefore precedence for calling the Messiah "Son of God" for he is Israel's representative par excellence (ZEB, vol.4, pg.203-204).
"Son of God" denotes an intimate relationship with the Father. It is obvious that sonship must not be understood in a crude pagan way. This bears out Dalman's contention that the Hebrew concept of "son" does not denote an extensive circle of relationships" (ZEB, vol.4, pg. 205). Adam was called the "son of God" (Luke 3:38), God calls King Solomon His "son" in 1 Chronicles 28:6.
For Paul, "Son of God" is essentially a Christological description expressing "the Son's solidarity with God" (ZEB, vol.4, pg.204). Closeness to the Father is the basic meaning of "Son of God" (Ibid). This closeness was a relationship that was shared by God's anointed kings of Israel. Since Jesus is the ideal king of Israel, he is naturally the ideal Son of God. This is how the term came to be synonymous with Messiah and king of Israel. They are all different ways of saying the same thing.
The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible vol. 4 pg. 204 states:
"The last chapter of the first epistle of John makes every possible emphasis upon the principle that Sonship is the mark of Messiahship. The same is the case with the fourth gospel where the Son of God is synonymous with Messiah and occurs more frequently than any other title. Haenchen maintains that the same equation:
Messiah = Son of God = Son of Man applies to Mark's gospel. The same can be said of the rest of the New Testament."
Aspects of Monotheism pg.90 states:
"The notion that the Davidic king was the son of God is well established in the Hebrew Bible in 2 Samuel 7:14 and in Psalm 2:7. It was only natural then that the coming messianic king should also be regarded as the Son of God. To say that the king was the son of God, however, does not necessarily imply divinization."
This is the meaning of the title "Son of God." Messiah = Son of God = king of Israel = Son of Man. The Messiah does have the closest and most intimate relationship with the Father. Let's take a look at some verses to confirm this.
"The kings of the earth rise up, and the princes conspire together against the LORD and His anointed (Messiah)"... "I myself have set up my king on Zion (Israel)"... "The LORD said to me, "You are my son" (Psalm 2:2,6-7).
Here we see God speaking of the Messiah using all three titles; Messiah, king of Zion, and son.
"He first found his own brother and told him, "We have found the Messiah"..."Rabbi, you are the Son of God: you are the King of Israel" (John 1:41& 49).
John cannot be clearer on this title; the Son of God is the King of Israel. This is the Jewish meaning of "Son of God." Any other definition will take away from the true meaning of the title into something that was never intended by its Jewish author.
Paul
That was a great post too Paul, with the exception of the fact that you seem to assert that you have wrapped up the entire controversy in your post, to the satisfaction of anyone who has eyes to see that you completely understand it. I think there is a little deeper mystery than that. In my opinion, John asserted many interesting things about Jesus in his narration. I think some of those things may exceed the parameters you set forth, if I am understanding you correctly.
Again, I was not addressing any controversy in my post! I was simply trying to explain the Hebraic understanding of "Son of God". Your misinterpretation of my explanation of a simple verse in John for another poster and my revelation of the Hebraic meaning of the biblical term "Son of God" offered for you some how.... wraps up the entire controversy is confusing to me. What controversy are you talking about? :dontknow:
Paul
Allow me to simplify. In regards to Jesus words, "Before Abrham was, I AM". I think you oversimplify. Controversy was perhaps a wrong choice of words. I was not referring to controversy between you and I or anyone on this board. I am just speaking of the general discussion of the controversial issue of the nature of God and the relationships between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The verse in question is controversial in that it is not universally understood or agreed upon. That is why we were discussing it. Thus far, it has been a friendly and enlightening discussion and I am not trying to take it onto any other ground than that. Peace.
Quote from: Molly on August 23, 2011, 10:08:10 AM
All of these translators got it wrong?
New International Version (©1984)
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
New Living Translation (©2007)
God replied to Moses, "I Am Who I Am. Say this to the people of Israel: I Am has sent me to you."
English Standard Version (©2001)
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
God answered Moses, "I Am Who I Am. This is what you must say to the people of Israel: 'I Am has sent me to you.'"
King James Bible
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
American King James Version
And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shall you say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.
American Standard Version
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Bible in Basic English
And God said to him, I AM WHAT I AM: and he said, Say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.
Douay-Rheims Bible
God said to Moses: I AM WHO AM. He said: Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: HE WHO IS, hath sent me to you.
Darby Bible Translation
And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM. And he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you.
English Revised Version
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Webster's Bible Translation
And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM: And he said, Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me to you.
World English Bible
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM," and he said, "You shall tell the children of Israel this: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
Young's Literal Translation
And God saith unto Moses, 'I AM THAT WHICH I AM;' He saith also, 'Thus dost thou say to the sons of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.'
Yes, they all got it wrong... read it in the Greek...
Septuagint Exo 3:14 και ειπεν ο θεος προς μωυσην [εγω ειμι ο ων] και ειπεν ουτως ερεις τοις υιοις ισραηλ [ο ων] απεσταλκεν με προς υμας
Jesus did not say
ο ων CLV Exo 3:14 Then Elohim spoke to Moses:
I shall come to be just as I am coming to be. And He said:
Thus shall you say to the sons of Israel, I-Shall-Come-to-Be ].[ο ων]has sent me to youMolly the translators all failed to read John 20:31
Yet these are written that you should be believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that, believing, you may have life eonian in His name."
Molly, by John having Jesus say I AM would not make anyone believe he was "the Christ" or "the Son of God." It would have a completely diffrerent meaning from what John was trying to share and teach you! Presonally, I pick the author Johns meaning over any translator of his work any day! :2c:
Here's a bonus verse where everyone get's it wrong and the CLV get's it right...
CLV Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put
obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, Elohim, does from the beginning to the terminus."
You should seriously add this bible to your list! :thumbsup:
Paul
Quote from: eaglesway on August 23, 2011, 11:40:30 PM
Allow me to simplify. In regards to Jesus words, "Before Abrham was, I AM". I think you oversimplify. Controversy was perhaps a wrong choice of words. I was not referring to controversy between you and I or anyone on this board. I am just speaking of the general discussion of the controversial issue of the nature of God and the relationships between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The verse in question is controversial in that it is not universally understood or agreed upon. That is why we were discussing it. Thus far, it has been a friendly and enlightening discussion and I am not trying to take it onto any other ground than that. Peace.
I agree,
I'm simply showing the true meaning of particular scripture and Hebraic understandings. I'm not even discussing the nature of God... only showing how verses do not always say what people want them to say. :2c:
Paul
Quote from: Molly on August 23, 2011, 09:29:50 AM
Quote from: PaulYour forcing a square block in a round circle, and it does not fit!
So why did the Pharisees go to stone him when he said, I AM? Why did the soldiers fall backwards to the ground?
Were they fitting a square peg in a round hole, too? There was no one there to explain their language to them?
I and John already showed you... The Jewish leaders were very well aware of what Jesus was saying about himself! Jesus was not claiming to be God but the Son of God as Shown in John 19:7 . As they give very reason they wanted Him dead! John 19:6 When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him. 7
The Jews answered him,
We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
The Messiah!
Paul
I dont believe it matters if its in Greek, German, Polish, Englinsh it is not just 3 letters or 18 letters, I AM is God and it being God then its the Power in the words Jesus SPOKE be it I AM or I-Shall-Come-to-Be.
Joh 6:63 The Spirit is that which is vivifying. The flesh is not benefiting anything. The declarations which I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
At least thats how I will embrace "I AM." :grin: :HeartThrob:
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.[John 5:18]
Gill's exposition of the Entire Bible
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him,.... They were the more desirous to take away his life, and were more bent and resolute upon it, and studied all ways and means how to bring it about;
because he had not only broken the sabbath; as they imagined; for he had not really broken it: and if they had known what that means, that God will have mercy, and not sacrifice, they would have been convinced that he had not broke it by this act of mercy to a poor distressed object:
but said also that God was his Father; his own Father, his proper Father, his Father by nature, and that he was his own Son by nature; and this they gathered from his calling him "my Father", and assuming a co-operation with him in his divine works:
making himself to be equal with God; to be of the same nature, and have the same perfections, and do the same works; for by saying that God was his Father, and so that he was the Son of God, a phrase, which, with them, signified a divine person, as they might learn from Psalm 2:7, and by ascribing the same operations to himself, as to his Father, they rightly understood him, that he asserted his equality with him; for had he intended no more, and had they imagined that he intended no more by calling God his Father, than that he was so by creation, as he is to all men, or by adoption, as he was to the Jews, they would not have been so angry with him; for the phrase, in this sense, they used themselves: but they understood him otherwise, as asserting his proper deity, and perfect equality with the Father; and therefore to the charge of sabbath breaking, add that of blasphemy, and on account of both, sought to put him to death; for according to their canons, both the sabbath breaker, and the blasphemer, were to be stoned.
Phpns 2;6 your attitude should be the same as Christ Jesus, who being in very nature God[love]
did NOT consider equality with God,something to be grasped[suffer a seizure]
But made himself NOTHING
taking the very nature of a servant,being made in human likeness,
and being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself,and became obediant unto death-even death on a cross
THEREFORE GOD EXALTED HIM TO THE HIGHEST PLACE
AND GAVE HIM THE NAME[God's name] THAT IS ABOVE EVERY NAME.
do I thing that something supernatural occurred when Jesus said 'I AM' yes!! I beleive that this was him giving the name,spoken of above.
everyone in the Holy city have Father's and Jesus' name.....we exist because of the Father and son..our very life has it's source in them
as does any BE[ing]
Quote from: Molly on August 24, 2011, 06:18:10 AM
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.[John 5:18]
Gill's exposition of the Entire Bible
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him,.... They were the more desirous to take away his life, and were more bent and resolute upon it, and studied all ways and means how to bring it about;
because he had not only broken the sabbath; as they imagined; for he had not really broken it: and if they had known what that means, that God will have mercy, and not sacrifice, they would have been convinced that he had not broke it by this act of mercy to a poor distressed object:
but said also that God was his Father; his own Father, his proper Father, his Father by nature, and that he was his own Son by nature; and this they gathered from his calling him "my Father", and assuming a co-operation with him in his divine works:
making himself to be equal with God; to be of the same nature, and have the same perfections, and do the same works; for by saying that God was his Father, and so that he was the Son of God, a phrase, which, with them, signified a divine person, as they might learn from Psalm 2:7, and by ascribing the same operations to himself, as to his Father, they rightly understood him, that he asserted his equality with him; for had he intended no more, and had they imagined that he intended no more by calling God his Father, than that he was so by creation, as he is to all men, or by adoption, as he was to the Jews, they would not have been so angry with him; for the phrase, in this sense, they used themselves: but they understood him otherwise, as asserting his proper deity, and perfect equality with the Father; and therefore to the charge of sabbath breaking, add that of blasphemy, and on account of both, sought to put him to death; for according to their canons, both the sabbath breaker, and the blasphemer, were to be stoned.
Gill has a lot to say, but it isn't necessarily all true. Altho I have no problem with Jesus bearing witness to his deity, in his response to them- Which obviously cannot be separated out of the discussion- He asks a question that goes to the heart of the matter, because he was refocusing the issues in their accusations. He said, essentially, "So what? Read your own law! Doesn't it say "You are all gods and sons of the most high?" He is showing them what Adam lost in the garden, and what they were refusing to receive from Him- "To all those who received him he gave the right to become sons of God". In no place does Jesus by his own words make Himself equal in STATURE to the Father. Jesus frequently declares himself totally dependent upon the Father and says the Father is the source of all of his words and actions. He is not his own source. He can of his own self do nothing. Whatever equality he has was given to him and it is written that way in many witnesses. This presents an interesting dilemma. Paul says Jesus was the fulness of diety in bodily form because "so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in him". Does it mean Jesus was confused or just playing word games with us? That Paul did not understand what he was saying because he didn t have the Bible yet? Or the benefit of Gill's understanding? Or a death sentence from the Holy Roman Church hanging over his head if he disagreed? :laughing7: God the Father needs no one to give him his name or authority, yet Jesus, by His own testimony was given that name, and that authority- and at some point will give the authority back, according to Paul(1 Cor 15). If Jesus is "Come down from heaven" to "reveal the Father" and is the "radiance of the Father's glory and the express image of his nature", then as the Logos of God he can speak, "I AM" being equal in essence, yet still not be EQUAL IN STATURE to the Father." All of the language I see, even that of the Father, "This is my beloved Son, Hear ye him" expresses- to me- a relationship that is never equal in stature(other than conferred stature), even as Isaac was not equal to Abraham, and therein lies the poignancy of giving up a son to die- a son totally dependent in trust and totally willing to be used, given up, for sinners- ah the greatness of the Father's love for us. Of course this is mostly conjecture, but reasonable conjecture when viewed through the many scriptures that present a perspective most dogmatists refuse to view. I think most are stuck in the doctrine of it, and missing the revelation of it.
God is an absolute being, within him their is no shadow of turning. He is absolute light and in him is no darkness at all. Jesus also could be speaking "I AM" as a manifestation of his absoluteness of being in union with the Father- a perfect expression, an "express image" as the writer of Hebrews states(Hebrews 1:1-3).
Heb 1:1-3
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days
has spoken to us in His Son,
whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.
(Heb 2:10)
For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.
For
both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,saying,
"I WILL PROCLAIM YOUR NAME TO MY BRETHREN, IN THE MIDST OF THE CONGREGATION I WILL SING YOUR PRAISE."
And again,
"I WILL PUT MY TRUST IN HIM." And again, "BEHOLD, I AND THE CHILDREN WHOM GOD HAS GIVEN ME."
Firstborn among many brethren, many sons unto glory, the whole creation anxious for the revealing of the sons of God who will set all free into their liberty.
Quote from: eaglesway on August 26, 2011, 02:01:03 AM
Quote from: Molly on August 24, 2011, 06:18:10 AM
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.[John 5:18]
Gill's exposition of the Entire Bible
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him,.... They were the more desirous to take away his life, and were more bent and resolute upon it, and studied all ways and means how to bring it about;
because he had not only broken the sabbath; as they imagined; for he had not really broken it: and if they had known what that means, that God will have mercy, and not sacrifice, they would have been convinced that he had not broke it by this act of mercy to a poor distressed object:
but said also that God was his Father; his own Father, his proper Father, his Father by nature, and that he was his own Son by nature; and this they gathered from his calling him "my Father", and assuming a co-operation with him in his divine works:
making himself to be equal with God; to be of the same nature, and have the same perfections, and do the same works; for by saying that God was his Father, and so that he was the Son of God, a phrase, which, with them, signified a divine person, as they might learn from Psalm 2:7, and by ascribing the same operations to himself, as to his Father, they rightly understood him, that he asserted his equality with him; for had he intended no more, and had they imagined that he intended no more by calling God his Father, than that he was so by creation, as he is to all men, or by adoption, as he was to the Jews, they would not have been so angry with him; for the phrase, in this sense, they used themselves: but they understood him otherwise, as asserting his proper deity, and perfect equality with the Father; and therefore to the charge of sabbath breaking, add that of blasphemy, and on account of both, sought to put him to death; for according to their canons, both the sabbath breaker, and the blasphemer, were to be stoned.
Gill has a lot to say, but it isn't necessarily all true. Altho I have no problem with Jesus bearing witness to his deity, in his response to them- Which obviously cannot be separated out of the discussion- He asks a question that goes to the heart of the matter, because he was refocusing the issues in their accusations. He said, essentially, "So what? Read your own law! Doesn't it say "You are all gods and sons of the most high?" He is showing them what Adam lost in the garden, and what they were refusing to receive from Him- "To all those who received him he gave the right to become sons of God". In no place does Jesus by his own words make Himself equal in STATURE to the Father. Jesus frequently declares himself totally dependent upon the Father and says the Father is the source of all of his words and actions. He is not his own source. He can of his own self do nothing. Whatever equality he has was given to him and it is written that way in many witnesses. This presents an interesting dilemma. Paul says Jesus was the fulness of diety in bodily form because "so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in him". Does it mean Jesus was confused or just playing word games with us? That Paul did not understand what he was saying because he didn t have the Bible yet? Or the benefit of Gill's understanding? Or a death sentence from the Holy Roman Church hanging over his head if he disagreed? :laughing7: God the Father needs no one to give him his name or authority, yet Jesus, by His own testimony was given that name, and that authority- and at some point will give the authority back, according to Paul(1 Cor 15). If Jesus is "Come down from heaven" to "reveal the Father" and is the "radiance of the Father's glory and the express image of his nature", then as the Logos of God he can speak, "I AM" being equal in essence, yet still not be EQUAL IN STATURE to the Father." All of the language I see, even that of the Father, "This is my beloved Son, Hear ye him" expresses- to me- a relationship that is never equal in stature(other than conferred stature), even as Isaac was not equal to Abraham, and therein lies the poignancy of giving up a son to die- a son totally dependent in trust and totally willing to be used, given up, for sinners- ah the greatness of the Father's love for us. Of course this is mostly conjecture, but reasonable conjecture when viewed through the many scriptures that present a perspective most dogmatists refuse to view. I think most are stuck in the doctrine of it, and missing the revelation of it.
God is an absolute being, within him their is no shadow of turning. He is absolute light and in him is no darkness at all. Jesus also could be speaking "I AM" as a manifestation of his absoluteness of being in union with the Father- a perfect expression, an "express image" as the writer of Hebrews states(Hebrews 1:1-3).
Heb 1:1-3 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.
(Heb 2:10)
For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.
For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,saying,
"I WILL PROCLAIM YOUR NAME TO MY BRETHREN, IN THE MIDST OF THE CONGREGATION I WILL SING YOUR PRAISE."
And again,
"I WILL PUT MY TRUST IN HIM." And again, "BEHOLD, I AND THE CHILDREN WHOM GOD HAS GIVEN ME."
Firstborn among many brethren, many sons unto glory, the whole creation anxious for the revealing of the sons of God who will set all free into their liberty.
:thumbsup: Jesus the Christ the only begotten Son of God, who through Christ send his Sons spirit of adoption into us that we now cry abba father.
Which Jesus is not ashamed to call them brethren.
Hebrews 3
1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
2Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.
3For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch
as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
5And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
6But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
7Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,