does that mean he wills for things like rape, murder, abuse, etc? I understand that God ultimately uses the results of these things for a "greater good" but is it safe to say that those specific atrocicites are his will, his desire? Im never sure how to answer this when it comes up, because in order to believe in Gods absolute sovereignty it would seem that to be the case.
Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on November 04, 2009, 01:29:55 AM
does that mean he wills for things like rape, murder, abuse, etc? I understand that God ultimately uses the results of these things for a "greater good" but is it safe to say that those specific atrocicites are his will, his desire? Im never sure how to answer this when it comes up, because in order to believe in Gods absolute sovereignty it would seem that to be the case.
I dont think the Lord wills this bro
I just believe that He bears with us though it all...
many try to live this life independant from God , but the Lord is never far away from any of us...
Pro 14:9 Fools make a mock at sin: but among the righteous [there is] favour.
Honestly I read ''the shack '' and it gave me some understanding on these matters
:HeartThrob:
For those who dwell in the house of the Lord it is the Passion of the Lamb.
For those who dwell under the law it is the result.
Well, I would certainly say that the capacity for such things is part of his will, although he evidently does not command people to do them.
Then again, if one believes that the universe is deterministic, then I suppose one would indeed have to conclude that God does will for such things to happen as well.
Quote from: Gab on November 04, 2009, 02:28:37 AM
if one believes that the universe is deterministic, then I suppose one would indeed have to conclude that God does will for such things to happen as well.
Whatever do you mean?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 04, 2009, 02:39:58 AM
Quote from: Gab on November 04, 2009, 02:28:37 AM
if one believes that the universe is deterministic, then I suppose one would indeed have to conclude that God does will for such things to happen as well.
Whatever do you mean?
If the universe is deterministic, which is to say that everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen has been preordained by God from the very beginning, then one must conclude that it was in God's will for all of those things to happen because if it was not then they would not have been so ordained.
The universe is a thing. This thing has no being. Thus it can not be determined of itself.
"It" simply follows the laws of physics OR those under grace follow the Lamb.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 04, 2009, 03:15:14 AM
The universe is a thing. This thing has no being. Thus it can not be determined of itself.
"It" simply follows the laws of physics OR those under grace follow the Lamb.
I'm... not sure how that relates to what I said.
If you don't like calling the universe deterministic, then remove the text "the universe is deterministic, which is to say that" from my post. The meaning is the same.
for the majority of my universalistic hereisies, ive kindof believed in what I call "limited will" which is certain things can happen that arent neccesaily Gods will, but there is a limit to them and his ultimate will cannot be thwarted (ie biblical prophecies and his plan of salvation).
but now Im starting to think hes behind it all, whether I like or understand that or not
Ninja, if you haven't already, read this:
http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-B.html
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-D.html
It may help clarify things at least.
What it means is that God uses evil for the purpose of his will, in other words, to benefit everyone...someday. The bible gives constant examples of God using evil for an ultimate good.
Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on November 04, 2009, 02:50:56 PM
What it means is that God uses evil for the purpose of his will, in other words, to benefit everyone...someday. The bible gives constant examples of God using evil for an ultimate good.
True is , true is , Marc !
I use the word ''allows'' , but ''uses ''is similar :thumbsup:
:HeartThrob:God bless ya all .....
I thought this thread would be a good place to share a thought I had today, although it may sound funny, I know the Spirit brought it to my mind today. While I was meditating on the question, why did God preplan the human race, and all creation to fall. Now, I know much can be said to answer this, and feel free to give your :2c: if you like. I'd love to hear it. Anyway, the thought I had was, regarding the motion picture Superman(the older one, and the first). Remember when Superman took Lois Lane for a fly around? And during the time they were flying , Superman was holding Lois' hand, and thats all. And at some point, he let her hand slip out of his and immediately she began falling way down from Superman!
And after a pause, Superman swooped down and caught Lois, and I tell you she grabbbed a hold of Superman like crazy! Of course, Superman was loving it! That was his plan.
And this is sorta what God has done with us. :happy3:
:cloud9: That's cute, and actually probably REAL close to the Truth..... :thumbsup:
Quote from: Cardinal on November 17, 2009, 05:41:41 AM
:cloud9: That's cute, and actually probably REAL close to the Truth..... :thumbsup:
I agree.. :HeartThrob:
He rescues us in our "fallen" state. :Sparkletooth: :winkgrin:
If we had never fallen, how we would have ever been able to finally see the contrast?
We have fallen... in other words we walk this life, we see what life is like without Him.
He reaches out for us.
We cling to Him forever because now we KNOW what Love is and we know what NON-LOVE is and we finally understand that He IS love. He is the source.
Us losing our grip on Him was actually a gift.
Because otherwise we would be innocent/pure but ignorant.
He has a better plan for us...
For us to be innocent/pure but intelligent.
And oh the glory to be revealed...
Yes. This suffering we go through won't compare.
woo hoo!!!
:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Hi Ninja , and you all here today,
Ninj I been thinking about your question ALOT !
And how confusing it was for me most of my life to answer that question
But now I know in order to ''rightly divide '' the Word of Truth
what Jesus said ''to be born again ''
to me in Gen 1 Adam was spirit /son of God , in Gen 2 we see God formed him out of the dust of the ground / flesh ..a fallen and weak state of being , His curse was to the flesh and it would NEVER prosper ...
to me that was IS the LOWER state lower than the angels ..
Jesus come in human /flesh form , the Adam condition
the things done in the flesh that wars against the Spirit , is all the evil things you mentioned in your original post and even more , that God allowed to come forth
from the Tree of good and evil
Now Jesus was coming all along but Hidden , when He did Come born as a little baby /flesh He made the open Show to ALL flesh
that the Spirit / Truth is the tree of Life and Part of God and His love that is blessed , but mankind / Adam / flesh would have the oppertunity to experience and find out How Gods will works ..
Just thoughts over the days on this subjuct , hope it was easy to understand my speech
I cannot speak as plain as I need to at times ..
but still just keep on trying to :HeartThrob:
I do not believe evil thoughts and intentions come from the Holy Spirit. In fact, doesn't the word HOLY mean separate,,, hallowed? The Holy Spirit is separate from the spirit of antiChrist which is the spirit that rules in the fallen world. Evil is simply opposition to that which is good. I think it can only lead to grave chaos and confusion to think of God as being evil in any sense.
However, His love is GREATER than any ability to resist. His goodness outweighs the most corrupt imaginings of the heart of man. In other words, God's goodness will OUTDO the magnitude of man's perversion of all that is good.
That's the way I see it.
Anne
Quote from: Raggedy Anne on November 17, 2009, 05:51:17 PM
I do not believe evil thoughts and intentions come from the Holy Spirit. In fact, doesn't the word HOLY mean separate,,, hallowed? The Holy Spirit is separate from the spirit of antiChrist which is the spirit that rules in the fallen world. Evil is simply opposition to that which is good. I think it can only lead to grave chaos and confusion to think of God as being evil in any sense.
However, His love is GREATER than any ability to resist. His goodness outweighs the most corrupt imaginings of the heart of man. In other words, God's goodness will OUTDO the magnitude of man's perversion of all that is good.
That's the way I see it.
Anne
thats exactly How I see it to
whats Spirit is Spirit and whats flesh is flesh
the weak condition of the flesh is bound to the Spirit
or the evil spirits of this world
we are not our own
we were bought for a price , that is why Paul called Himself a bondservant of Jesus Christ .
whats Holy and pure and righteous is of God
yet he Created the tree of knoweldge of good and evil for His perfect will in mind ... God works EVERYTHING into his will.... and Only He can DO This :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Raggedy Anne on November 17, 2009, 05:51:17 PM
I do not believe evil thoughts and intentions come from the Holy Spirit. In fact, doesn't the word HOLY mean separate,,, hallowed?
In some translations it's called the "
Pure Spirit"
Whitewings, Rose - thank you. I appreciate your comments. I always feel confused if I ever try to imagine God being anything but PURE.
God has to have a certain character - otherwise, how could we come to KNOW HIM? If he changed like we do from one minute to the next, knowing him would be no different than knowing the fellow next door. I've never met a person that would never fail me. God is the only one I know who is completely unchanging and trustworthy. That's why I trust him with the very ominous issue of death.
Anne
Quote from: Raggedy Anne on November 17, 2009, 07:31:44 PM
Whitewings, Rose - thank you. I appreciate your comments. I always feel confused if I ever try to imagine God being anything but PURE.
God has to have a certain character - otherwise, how could we come to KNOW HIM? If he changed like we do from one minute to the next, knowing him would be no different than knowing the fellow next door. I've never met a person that would never fail me. God is the only one I know who is completely unchanging and trustworthy. That's why I trust him with the very ominous issue of death.
Anne
Amen to that Anne ! :thumbsup:
love how clear you are in your beliefs too !
I struggle with that alot ..... :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Raggedy Anne on November 17, 2009, 07:31:44 PM
Whitewings, Rose - thank you. I appreciate your comments. I always feel confused if I ever try to imagine God being anything but PURE.
God has to have a certain character - otherwise, how could we come to KNOW HIM? If he changed like we do from one minute to the next, knowing him would be no different than knowing the fellow next door. I've never met a person that would never fail me. God is the only one I know who is completely unchanging and trustworthy. That's why I trust him with the very ominous issue of death.
Anne
Yes, I agree.
willieH: Hi Ninja... :hithere:
I will try my best not to enjoin an argument between "free will" and "sovereignty", as it has been hashed out several times here, with no resolve, as well as has been deemed a taboo by TM as a subject of discussion.
However, you have mentioned some scenarios below (rape, murder, abuse, etc.), that deserve a revealing commentary... as well as a statement which has not been introduced before (to my knowledge) in any other discussion, SUCH AS this:
WE are the LIVING KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL, as KNOWN in the HEART of
YHVH... I will briefly explain below...
Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on November 04, 2009, 01:29:55 AM
does that mean he wills for things like rape, murder, abuse, etc? I understand that God ultimately uses the results of these things for a "greater good" but is it safe to say that those specific atrocicites are his will, his desire? Im never sure how to answer this when it comes up, because in order to believe in Gods absolute sovereignty it would seem that to be the case.
Not to get into the "Sovereignty" issue... there are observations that easily identify it in Scripture, to be so...
(1) ALL POWER (no matter how it is used or observed) is of GOD --
Rom 13:1(2) GOD works
ALL THINGS --
Eph 1:11(3) In HIM do ALL THINGS take place --
Acts 17:28Let me begin with a "for instance" concerning the works and deeds of men that are OTHER than "good",
When a "rape" (or any other "atrocity") takes place, can you truly say that God is not affiliated in ANY way to it's manifestation? Though there are MANY observations that can be made, here are a few:
(1) To begin with He Himself, created the concept or category under which this deed ("rape") is identified [EVIL] -- therefore it cannot
BE (in any realm), except it were a CREATED entity, which is within a CONCEPT that emerged from
YHVH -- :dontknow:
(2) He
KNOWS beforehand that it will take place -- :dontknow:
(3) He is
PRESENT at its manifestation -- :dontknow:
(4) He brings forth
BOTH participants -- :dontknow:
(5) He
CHOOSES the time period in which the event is manifest -- :dontknow:
(6) He does
NOTHING to PREVENT IT from occuring -- :dontknow:
A short while back, the Lord revealed to me (you are welcome to disagree) that WE and ALL that is done in the presence of
YHVH, are the LIVING
KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL, revealed and emerging from -- the heart of
YHVH...
His
KNOWLEDGE, like every aspect of Him, is a LIVING THING... and the human race (His Children) are active and LIVING participants of the
KNOWLEDGE of G & E as it is being revealed in and through us, before ALL as an ETERNAL TESTIMONY to BOTH...
God is not an "external" element to our existence... He is WITHIN and WITHOUT as well as an active part of
EVERYTHING about us... :cloud9:
There is not 1 hair on our heads which He is not aware of -- there is not 1 blood cell -- not 1 thought -- not 1 deed -- Everything about the creation is ALIVE... as well as ALL MENTAL and SPIRITUAL aspects... God even notes in His
WORD that the ROCKS are able to PRAISE HIM! --
Luke 19:40 -- Habb 2:11Does one think that one can
DO something that GOD has not decided shall be done? He DECLARED the entire course of Humanity, BEFORE it came forth! --
Isaiah 46:10 -- Rom 4:17No offense to anyone, but how "self-centered", and arrogant is this thinking? That one would consider that he/she might
DO something that GOD is COMPLETELY disassociated from? :mshock:
The desparately wicked HEART of MAN --
Jer 17:9 -- is where the doctrine of "INDEPENDENCE" comes from... it is NOT named in the
WORD, on the contrary, ...I have named THREE Scriptures above which CLEARLY DEFY it...
EVERYTHING emerges from and is replaced upon the
SAME FOUNDATION --
1 Cor 3:11 -- there is only ONE FOUNDATION, and
ALL works (good OR evil) in Creation must be placed UPON it... that FOUNDATION being
CHRIST...
Men percieve themselves to "believe" as "they will"... but in the end Ninja... WE and ALL things are upon the agenda of
YHVH... and rightly so... for the ETERNAL is set upon HIS WILL... and only the TEMPORAL MIRAGE which appears in the form of "wills" which are separate from HIS, is percieved in the realm of time, and is helplessly heading back to where it emerged... to be eliminated, and to be reconciled to the ONLY WILL which actually ...
IS... that PERFECT WILL of
YHVH!
...willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on November 04, 2009, 06:46:58 AMfor the majority of my universalistic hereisies, ive kindof believed in what I call "limited will" which is certain things can happen that arent neccesaily Gods will, but there is a limit to them and his ultimate will cannot be thwarted (ie biblical prophecies and his plan of salvation).
but now Im starting to think hes behind it all, whether I like or understand that or not
:iagree: And you are quite correct, in this thought, bro! :thumbsup:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
In fact, we still feel as if we're under a death sentence. But we suffered so that we would stop trusting ourselves and learn to trust God, who brings the dead back to life. He has rescued us from a terrible death, and he will rescue us in the future. We are confident that he will continue to rescue us, 2 Corinthians 1: 9-10 (GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995) .... I don't normally use this translation, just thought I'd try it. I recommend reading all of 2Corinthians if you want to get the mind of Christ on the topic of God's will.
Hi everyone...
heres my take on it,.None of us can stand before God since we are not refined completely.In order for the refining process to be accomplished our hearts have to be seen for what they are.This is what occurs on a regular basis through various trials and tribulations,it is in these times where we chose to die to ourselves or not.When we don't die to selves...nasty stuff happens.God didn't want this,He wants us to chose Him for relationship.
But we all know either now or later ,we will be with Him.
So God lets us make our own decisions; because like Him we create some times good sometimes bad.one day though we will choose life on every opportunity until then we still need it written on our hearts
blessings :icon_king:
Quote from: Gab on November 04, 2009, 02:51:38 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 04, 2009, 02:39:58 AM
Quote from: Gab on November 04, 2009, 02:28:37 AM
if one believes that the universe is deterministic, then I suppose one would indeed have to conclude that God does will for such things to happen as well.
Whatever do you mean?
If the universe is deterministic, which is to say that everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen has been preordained by God from the very beginning, then one must conclude that it was in God's will for all of those things to happen because if it was not then they would not have been so ordained.
Another way to look at it is; If these things weren't "supposed" to happen, then when did God lose control of his Universe?
"All is of God" (2 Corinthians 5:18)
willieH: Hi OT... :hithere:
As always, you are welcome to see things as you do, and it is not my purpose to change those views... If God should use any of us in the others circumstances, then it is HE which is changing us... :nod:
That said...
Quote from: onlytruth on November 17, 2009, 09:35:18 PM
Hi everyone...
heres my take on it,.None of us can stand before God since we are not refined completely.
We ALL stand
before God on a continuous basis, Onlytruth --
Psalms 139:7-12Quote from: onlytruth on November 17, 2009, 09:35:18 PMIn order for the refining process to be accomplished our hearts have to be seen for what they are.This is what occurs on a regular basis through various trials and tribulations,it is in these times where we chose to die to ourselves or not.When we don't die to selves...nasty stuff happens.God didn't want this,He wants us to chose Him for relationship.
I'm just asking questions for you to consider... :friendstu:
:omg: I don't agree with
this statement -- O-T!
How can it be said by
YHVH that He is an
"ALMIGHTY God", and yet -- things occur within His Creation (over which is His "ALL MIGHT"), that
He did
not agree with, as becoming manifest? :dunno:
Quote from: onlytruth on November 17, 2009, 09:35:18 PMBut we all know either now or later ,we will be with Him.
So God lets us make our own decisions; because like Him we create some times good sometimes bad.
Again, a bit of disagreement. Yes, we
DO create some times "good" and sometimes "bad" -- however, it is according to Him and His DECLARATION of us, that we "create" these scenarios --
Isaiah 46:10 -- Rom 4:17 --
As for GOD "creating" sometimes good and sometimes bad... I disagree
COMPLETELY. He ALWAYS "creates" GOOD. Even EVIL (as "created" by Him) has been exposed (via Men IN TIME) --- for what it IS, which is ETERNALLY on behalf of GOOD to magnify GOOD -- for what it REALLY IS...
As
JESUS plainly stated --
"I CAN, of MINE OWN SELF -- DO NOTHING" --
John 5:30 -- If this is true of
CHRIST, then it also must be true of us...
If
CHRIST could
DO NOTHING "apart" from God, How can we assert that --
"OF OURSELVES", we
"DO" anything apart from
YHVH? Is this a proposal that WE are "ABLE" to
DO something
CHRIST COULD not? :mshock:
We LIVE and MOVE and have our BEING within Him! --
Acts 17:28 -- and ALL POWER is HIS --
Rom 13:1 -- so even if POWER (as it appears to us) is misused, it was HE which ISSUED it
KNOWING BEFORE the "misuse" --- that the power ISSUED would be "misused"!
If this is indeed true (which it
IS)... Then the "misuse" has to be deduced as INTENDED! For
YHVH issued to the "misuser", power to "misuse" with PRIOR KNOWLEDGE of the "misuse"... :dontknow:
Bottom line... we are on
HIS PROGRAM -- He is
NOT... on ours -- :mnah:
HE is working
ALL THINGS -- which includes
EVERYTHING --
Eph 1:11 -- :dontknow: -- (
ALL THINGS does not disinclude
ANYTHING)...
Quote from: onlytruth on November 17, 2009, 09:35:18 PMone day though we will choose life on every opportunity until then we still need it written on our hearts
blessings :icon_king:
And it is within the process of TIME and (within this life = LAKE of FIRE), that this -- "writing" -- is taking place... :nod:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Hi willie,I read everyones posts and I respect them all,since it is God who gives the revelation.
That being said,for us to be in complete relationship with the father(only doing what He shows us)we must chose rightly in every situation,until then we will be refined by the refiner.
Some will chose to follow their flesh and in doing so, will only see in part.Jesus decided(because he had the revelation)to choose well and so became the first manifested son after 30 years!
So if we want to live in abundant life...choose ye this day whom you will serve,as for me and my house we will serve the Lord.YUP we get to choose but ultimately if we always choose wrong God will still reconcile all things now our later
blessings :icon_king:
The SPIRIT is not vindictive, and no anger management classes are necessary. God is not emotionally or mentally imbalanced; needful of psychological help or spiritual counseling. He is not known for his evil disposition.
Situations wanting: "Are those who commit rape, murder, and other such atrocities at the level of truth or love?"
peacemaker
Hey folks. I have a question. I am definitely believing now in God's sovereignty, and that man's free will is very limited. But what about all the scriptures that say , "whosoever will may come" , "for whosoever calls upon the Lord will be saved", and others. Now, since God knows already who is going to do what ever, and when, why does the Word make it sound like a call to people to exercise their free will when ever they feel like it? And I know if I ever start talking against free will beliefs, they will bring this up in defense. What about all these "whosoever wills"!
Hi fa squared.
I don't want to fuel a free will debate (one I might of necessity shut down later :laughing7:) but I think yours is an honest, fair question. Maybe because I've wondered about it myself :mblush:.
My first reaction to your question was "whosoever does, has had God do that work within him - giving him the faith to believe". I went out and found this from J. Preston Eby, who I believe says the same thing in more detail;
"But does not Scripture say, 'Whosoever will may come'? It does, but does this mean that everybody has the will to come? What of those who won't come? 'Whosoever will may come' no more implies that fallen man has the power in himself to come, than 'Stretch forth thine hand' implies that the man with the withered arm had the inherent ability in himself to comply. It should be obvious that the ability came from the One who spoke the word: 'Stretch forth thine hand.' In and of himself the natural man has power to reject Christ; but in and of himself he has not the power to receive Christ. And why? Because he has a mind that is 'enmity against' Him (Rom. 8:7); because he has a heart that hates Him (Jn. 15:18). Man chooses that which is according to his nature, and therefore before he will ever choose or prefer that which is divine and spiritual, a new nature must be imparted to him; in other words, he must be born again.
Let me appeal to the actual experience of the reader of these lines. Was there not a time when you were unwilling to come to Christ? There was. Since then you have come to Him. Are you now prepared to give Him all the glory for that (Ps.115:1)? Do you not acknowledge that you came to Christ because the Holy Spirit brought you from unwillingness to willingness? You do. Then is it not also a patent fact that the Holy Spirit has not done in many others what He has done in you! Granting that many others have heard the Gospel, been shown their need of Christ, yet, they are still unwilling to come to Him. Thus He has wrought more in you, than in them. Do you answer, Yet I remember well the time when the word of salvation was presented to me, and my conscience testifies that my will acted and that I yielded to the claims of Christ upon me. Quite true. But before you 'Yielded,' the Holy Spirit overcame the native enmity of your mind against God, and this enmity He does not overcome in all at this time. Should it be said, That is because they are unwilling for their enmity to be overcome? Ah, none are thus 'willing' till He has put forth His all-mighty power and wrought a miracle of grace in the heart."
James.
Thanks a lot for the response! It really addressed what I want to understand better . :thumbsup:
"Whosoever will may come"
My thought on that. It's like someone saying, whosoever may end up in a lake will get wet, then that person proceeding to throw everyone in a lake to get wet. It's simply a statement of fact.
So, in that light, the phrase "whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved" simply describes the inevitable effect upon those who call upon the name of the Lord....even if the Lord himself is the one that inspires them to call upon his name.
"God doesn't want us gathering in our separate groups, His will is that we be composed of one fabric."
Yet many cannot weave these to thoughts, together.
peacemaker