Well, ever since finding out that Hell is not eternal, I have lost some direction in my life. Now, I am not saying that is a bad thing, but it is a very uncomfortable feeling. I don't feel the need to go to church. I still pray, talk to God, focus on what is right... But I don't 'strive' anymore. Before I tried as hard as a could because I was trying to escape Hell, but now that Hell does not exist, the drive for Heaven just doesn't seem quite as strong.
I have become negative over everything religion now... I have a hard time being objective over any organized faith... I now defend the outcasts, even sinners that are outcasts. It just seems all so backwards to me.
I struggled with a wife who thinks I am not a Christian. I struggle with a co-worker who thinks I am 'dangerous' to people because of my theology. I struggle with not being able to have fellowship in person with someone who believes the same as I do, or who doesn't think I am totally crazy. I struggle with a lot of things. Things that I struggle with my entire life... But now I just don't seem to care about my imperfections, at least not in the sense that they will incur punishment. I now desire to be rightous for no other reason that because that is the right thing to do. But it still doesn't magically happen and I am not a firm believer that you can change yourself anyway, if you wanted too. It is all Christ and it appears it is on his timing, not mine. It seems to happen when I don't think it is happening.
I don't know much anymore... I guess I am lost and waiting for Jesus to show me the way. I hear people say 'to live is Christ' but that doesn't make any sense to me. Yeah, I can pretend what it means like I did before, but the reality is - what does it really mean? Gramatically, it doesn't make any sense and I am sure I could be like everyone else are just make up what it means to me. But I can't do that, not in good faith.
I know others have been in this position... Any advice? Being in a religion solves this problem because you don't have to think, you simply have to listen to your pastor tell you what to do. But, I don't think I would trade emotional stability for the lies of religion. Sometimes I wish I could have taken the 'blue' pill (shamless MATRIX reference). And the problem I am really facing isn't finding out what is WRONG. I already know that Traditional Christianity is WRONG on MANY things. But so is Islam, and Budhism... So finding the wrong is not the problem, it is finding the truth and getting a mystical 'Jesus is the Truth' statement doesn't solve the problem, unfortunately...
:cloud9: It's a hard transition to switch from works to grace, and it makes the flesh nature of us that is used to the do's and don'ts and the false security of being in the flock numbers, feel unstable and insecure, like a drowning man, trying to hang onto whatever driftwood floating by we can grab hold of. What He's really wanting now is a closer relationship with just Him, where we learn to draw our life from His Spirit, and just LET GO and rest in Him and trust that He is doing a finishing work in us, as we have been called outside the camp.
In a true "dead" salt lake you cannot sink, not even if you try to. The water looks the same from all appearances, but the salt you can't see makes you buoyant. It is the same with this work of the Spirit; it feels like you could fall in and drown because you are used to being able to in normal water, but the truth of the matter is, this water, this flow of the Spirit, is not "normal" and He wants you to see that you can't sink because He has you in the palm of His hand, and He will raise you up without any effort on your part, except to have faith without seeing the result immediately.
Eventually, you come to the realization that you can't fall in any state of permanency because your nature has been so changed that you simply draw no pleasure from that which is not expedient to your spirit man. So you find you are no longer not doing things because you are not supposed to, but because you have no desire to. Sometimes you may try it anyway, unaware of that nature change, falling into old patterns and habits, but it won't be long before the joy is gone and you will fall back in line. That is the nature change that has been being worked in you, to bring you to this point where you could be trusted with the mature things of God.
Don't beat yourself up, keep pressing in, in your Spirit, keep praising Him and He will reveal Himself in greater intimacy than you have ever known before, because He has begun to remove the tutors and governors that were over you for a season. He is to be our only covering, the "fathers" and the "mothers" must relinquish their hold on us, so that He can be birthed in us, lest we be "pregnant" but never bring to birth. Not coming out from under the "mother" the church, means we risk being stillborn, refusing to allow the veil of the flesh to be rent. Praise God He has deemed you worthy to be brought to "birth".
Jesus defended the outcasts too, and was persecuted for it. The servant is not greater than the master, so we too get persecuted for it. You are not lost, you just are in unfamiliar territory right now. Remember He told them to keep their eyes on the Ark because you have not been this way before. Keep your eyes on the ark, and He will lead you into the next step for you. Blessings to you in your journey.......
I can relate totally to both the problem and the explanation. If we can just stay out of our natural minds, we do alright. But when those thoughts about whether we are the ones off track come in, it can get hard. I mean, how can we few be right and the whole rest of Christianity be wrong?
It is tough to keep going forward. The only thing tougher would be going back.
I am glad we are in it together or it really would be hard to keep walking this way alone.
John
Quote from: Kratos on March 03, 2008, 07:49:25 AM
But when those thoughts about whether we are the ones off track come in, it can get hard. I mean, how can we few be right and the whole rest of Christianity be wrong? John
:cloud9: That's when we have to remember that He always deals with a remnant within a remnant, FIRST. There is no safety in numbers in this walk, and we must not give in to the temptation of numbering the "tribe".........Blessings to all......
Hi Gabe,
as someone who has always been destined to walk the path of the "less travelled" and many times stumbling around in the dark hitting obsticles with one's head and saying..."hey everybody, watch out, there is an obsticle here"... I kinda get what you're saying, and the sentences jumping out of your post for me were:
QuoteI now defend the outcasts, even sinners that are outcasts. It just seems all so backwards to me.
that sounds to me very much like another person I've heard of who understood the sinners, had compassion on them and even defended them...he was also said to have done things "backwards" and not "conforming" to what was the flavour of the day...he was the rock upon which these destitute people could find their feet again
QuoteI now desire to be rightous for no other reason that because that is the right thing to do.
i sense the birth of a new star...shining forth in righteousness and love :)
Quote from: noname on March 03, 2008, 09:51:02 AM
Hi Gabe,
as someone who has always been destined to walk the path of the "less travelled" and many times stumbling around in the dark hitting obsticles with one's head and saying..."hey everybody, watch out, there is an obsticle here"... I kinda get what you're saying, and the sentences jumping out of your post for me were:
QuoteI now defend the outcasts, even sinners that are outcasts. It just seems all so backwards to me.
that sounds to me very much like another person I've heard of who understood the sinners, had compassion on them and even defended them...he was also said to have done things "backwards" and not "conforming" to what was the flavour of the day...he was the rock upon which these destitute people could find their feet again
QuoteI now desire to be rightous for no other reason that because that is the right thing to do.
i sense the birth of a new star...shining forth in righteousness and love :)
Amen.
- byron
Quote from: Kratos on March 03, 2008, 07:49:25 AM
I can relate totally to both the problem and the explanation. If we can just stay out of our natural minds, we do alright. But when those thoughts about whether we are the ones off track come in, it can get hard. I mean, how can we few be right and the whole rest of Christianity be wrong?
It is tough to keep going forward. The only thing tougher would be going back.
I am glad we are in it together or it really would be hard to keep walking this way alone.
John
Of course I can't relate to this particular struggle since I never believed in eternal hell, but I can now relate to the alienation, even from family. All I can say about it is that though fear is a strong motivator - love is the strongest motivator of all.
- byron
Quote from: Cardinal on March 03, 2008, 07:32:58 AM
:cloud9: It's a hard transition to switch from works to grace, and it makes the flesh nature of us that is used to the do's and don'ts and the false security of being in the flock numbers, feel unstable and insecure, like a drowning man, trying to hang onto whatever driftwood floating by we can grab hold of. What He's really wanting now is a closer relationship with just Him, where we learn to draw our life from His Spirit, and just LET GO and rest in Him and trust that He is doing a finishing work in us, as we have been called outside the camp.
In a true "dead" salt lake you cannot sink, not even if you try to. The water looks the same from all appearances, but the salt you can't see makes you buoyant. It is the same with this work of the Spirit; it feels like you could fall in and drown because you are used to being able to in normal water, but the truth of the matter is, this water, this flow of the Spirit, is not "normal" and He wants you to see that you can't sink because He has you in the palm of His hand, and He will raise you up without any effort on your part, except to have faith without seeing the result immediately.
Eventually, you come to the realization that you can't fall in any state of permanency because your nature has been so changed that you simply draw no pleasure from that which is not expedient to your spirit man. So you find you are no longer doing things because you are not supposed to, but because you have no desire to. Sometimes you may try it anyway, unaware of that nature change, falling into old patterns and habits, but it won't be long before the joy is gone and you will fall back in line. That is the nature change that has been being worked in you, to bring you to this point where you could be trusted with the mature things of God.
Don't beat yourself up, keep pressing in, in your Spirit, keep praising Him and He will reveal Himself in greater intimacy than you have ever known before, because He has begun to remove the tutors and governors that were over you for a season. He is to be our only covering, the "fathers" and the "mothers" must relinquish their hold on us, so that He can be birthed in us, lest we be "pregnant" but never bring to birth. Not coming out from under the "mother" the church, means we risk being stillborn, refusing to allow the veil of the flesh to be rent. Praise God He has deemed you worthy to be brought to "birth".
Jesus defended the outcasts too, and was persecuted for it. The servant is not greater than the master, so we too get persecuted for it. You are not lost, you just are in unfamiliar territory right now. Remember He told them to keep their eyes on the Ark because you have not been this way before. Keep your eyes on the ark, and He will lead you into the next step for you. Blessings to you in your journey.......
What a WONDERFUL POST Card!!!!!!!!!!!! :HeartThrob:
Gabe, oh how I can relate! We are in this together, many many of us :HeartThrob:
Hi, Gabe! :icon_flower:
Something that has helped me in this transition is doing things that I really enjoy. For me, that's writing, planting flowers, arts and crafts or going on walks in the country side or Forrest. I don't do these things as a substitute for God but rather as a way of feeling rejuvenated and motivated; a way to feel that drive that you are lacking. But as I'm enjoying those pastimes, I'm also really enjoying the Lord- not blocking Him out. He's involved in it with me and I'm worshipping Him while doing these things but it isn't religious at all. It's sort of hard to explain...
I am now free to enjoy life with no fear lurking in the background to spoil it. When I'm talking to God while playing in my flowers, the memory of rejection from people fades off into the distant past instead of staring me in the face! That annoying question of "What do we do now?" disappears, too! Well, we plant flowers now, that's what! :Sparkletooth: Plain and simple! And we're gonna have fun doing it, too!
Don't know if that made sense or not... :HeartThrob:
:cloud9: Hopeful, your post reminded me of something the Lord told a friend of mine. She was feeling guilty about not "seeking" Him constantly in the Word as she was accustomed to doing, and was going on vacation to the ocean. He waited till she got there, and was walking on the beach, when He told her she was not just a human having a spiritual experience, but He was also a Spirit having another human experience within her, and HE liked walking on the beach with her talking to Him, TOO.
Religion taught us to delegate Him to one or 2 days a week, and the rest of the time we were to put Him on a shelf, but He wants to be actively involved in every breath we take, as real as anyone else in our family.
One of my experiences with this was His great sense of humor. My main hobby is my flower beds in the Spring and Summer. I salivate over the first sign of flowers popping thru, LOL. I love Spring, even though it kills me for about a month of weeding, tilling and planting, ect. My husband and oldest son were that way over fishing. So as I was digging, I would find bait.
I hollered out one day, "Anybody want a worm?", because I wasn't sure if they were planning a fishing trip anytime soon. As soon as I said those words, the Lord spoke as plain as I have ever heard Him, and said in a humorous tone with the understanding with it, "I do, I do!"
Get it? In the Word He said, "Jacob (the carnal nature), you worm!" The Christ nature (fish) wants to consume lots of "worms". All of them, LOL. Isn't that priceless? My daughter was about 12 at the time, and was helping a few feet away. She heard me cracking up, talking to the Lord and wanted to know what was going on. It opened up a good discussion for me to explain some foundational principles, and I swear it felt just like we were back in the first garden, talking with God in pure fellowship. THAT is what He wants. Blessings to all....
Gabe!~
Did you ever hear the song: "His Hand reached further down that I could reach up" ?
It came to my mind when I read your post. How we are the work of "HiS" Hands.
How the Spirit teaches each one of us. How sure is our salvation when we realize
it is not based on "our" works, but on HIS, and He will be right on time in YOUR LIFE
with whatever is NEXT for "you" ........Read where you understand, skip where you don't,
remember to forgive, when you need to, and ask forgiveness when you need to. What
doth the Lord require of you but to LOVE Mercy, do justly, and to walk humbly with thy
God? Nothing! That's it in a nutshell. You wait and see, God will surprise you, when
you least expect it...........He will be like a ping pong ball in the ocean. For you are HIS.
Thanks for everyone's kind and hopeful words. I am glad to know that I am not alone and is something I must experience for now. Keep on keeping on as they say... :D
Gabe I share the same experience. I felt almost hostile to any hint of religion for awhile.
I tried going back to church for several years but it was mostly because I was seeking community more than anything else. But in the end, it was very evangelical and I was ignoring more of the teaching than I was using ... and feeling very lonely in the middle of it all, so I just left.
It's been quite a journey to where I am now, which is studying and growing and loving. I do go to a church now and then but mostly to be with extended family and it is a church that never preaches ET. The messages are very practical and apply to my daily life. I probably wouldn't go except for my family being together.
Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. There's still SO MUCH to enjoy and apply to our journey.
Gabe, I felt the exact same way you do. At one point in my life, I stopped going to church, and really thought bad about most religion. None of them ever "got it right". Or all of it anyway. I did not give up on God, though, I just read the bible and studied at home. Then I got to the passage where it says we are judged according to our works. (Rev.20:12) While no amount of works can ever save us, I know I would like to be judged according to good works, not bad ones! I want my reward to be with God.
This is not meant to be a scare tactic. Just a reminder.
God bless. :HeartThrob:
Well, ever since finding out that Hell is not eternal, I have lost some direction in my life. Now, I am not saying that is a bad thing, but it is a very uncomfortable feeling. I don't feel the need to go to church. I still pray, talk to God, focus on what is right... But I don't 'strive' anymore. Before I tried as hard as a could because I was trying to escape Hell, but now that Hell does not exist, the drive for Heaven just doesn't seem quite as strong.
I know what you're saying, Gabe, because I had to experience so much of what you are talking about. I went to church just because I was supposed to go. Actually, there were times when I'd leave church with a sense of lostness, lonliness and helplessness that I never experience anywhere else. (After doing a study on church, I have a new perspective on what it means and no longer feel a desire to "go to church.") The striving and not feeling guilty is all a part of God showing us His great and glorious amazing grace! Wow, to think He loves us no matter if we're good or bad, right or wrong, faithful or unfaithful, happy or sad, mad or glad. He just loves us unconditionally. Period. That's a hard hook and line for most of us to swallow. Just hang on to the fact that He really does love you, Gabe, and don't listen to anyone who says otherwise.
I have become negative over everything religion now... I have a hard time being objective over any organized faith... I now defend the outcasts, even sinners that are outcasts. It just seems all so backwards to me.
I hate religion....the striving, working, and doing things to make ourselves acceptable to God. What always bothers me is that those who put laws and regulations on others, never seem able to keep them themselves. They always fail, even if it's a minor offense. I've seen it too often in myself and others that when I try to put laws on people, I fail much more than when I love them in spite of their sins....as hard as that is to do.
I can't remember who said it but I remember it -- most people don't want to know what's true, they just want to be safe. Religion is safety, there's safety in numbers.
Christ is truth, He's where life is, in Him is where we find true freedom. Once we know we're free from the bondage that man wants to keep us under, we're free to truly follow Him without interference.
Gabe,
You are not alone in these struggles, but it sounds like you are on the right path. At least I hope it's the right path, because I'm right behind you!!!
I can't say I have any answers. My old religion would spout empty platitudes. What I can say for me is the peace of the gospel is worth the price of admission.
There is a site trying to bring us together. www.championsofgrace.com I haven't had much success getting together with gospelly folk, but they are still young. I also listen to Mike Williams' radio broadcasts on www.glennkleinonline.com or Mike's teachings on www.gospelrevolution.com or archived audio at www.gospelogic.com.
Blessings!
Giz
Gabe,
I understand how you feel. I'm still working through some of the same things. I would encourage you to remember that doctrine (be it UR or whatever) is simply knowledge, but the goal is Jesus. Lots of people here have already said that. I was given some good advice recently to not forget what Jesus had given me in the past and continue in pursuit of Him. I got too wrapped up in trying to study my way to the truth than getting to know THE TRUTH...
Another brother at your side,
Andrew
edit- I wanted to add, however, that UR was an important piece for me in continuing to get to know Him, but certainly not the end.
:cloud9: Amen to that Andrew..... :thumbsup:
I was just thinking about how I've been battling with how to 'express' my faith. That is, some people wear Jesus T-Shirts, have Jesus bumper stickers, go to church regularly, hang out with christian friends, go on christian 'encounters', etc. You can do all those things and not know anything about God, yet you will be considered a 'christian.'
I myself have struggled because I NEVER felt like I fit in with these christian circles and activities. I never fit in in christian church groups. I NEVER felt right about wearing religion on my sleeve. In face, I've pretty much figured out that there is no such thing as a true religious expression. All things external are just fluff, and idolatry.
The only real religious expression is this: to have love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, kindness, self-control, gentleness, and faithfulness. These things only come from walking with God, having him be the source of your life.The manifestation of these things is to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give to the poor, defend the cause of the orphan, the fatherless, and the widows. There is NO other pure and undefiled religion in the sight of God.
:cloud9: That's a lot of wisdom you got there already. :thumbsup:
Quote from: eirinikos on April 03, 2008, 12:45:54 AM
The only real religious expression is this: to have love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, kindness, self-control, gentleness, and faithfulness. These things only come from walking with God, having him be the source of your life.The manifestation of these things is to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give to the poor, defend the cause of the orphan, the fatherless, and the widows. There is NO other pure and undefiled religion in the sight of God.
:thumbsup: And sometimes that manifestation can be to wipe a nose, give a drink, be silent as a lamb, give a smile or tell a story.
:HeartThrob:
Sounds like your being delivered from religion Gabe and because of that your experiencing an identity crisis which is normal for anyone who was caught up in a religious system.Just keep relating to Jesus.
When does the identity crisis end :sigh: :mblush: :msealed: :mshock: :dontknow:
When self is denied and knowing Jesus is all that really matters.
Quote from: jiggyfly on April 11, 2008, 01:55:56 PM
When self is denied and knowing Jesus is all that really matters.
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh,
Want to put that in friendly user terms?
Can WE put self to death or is it a God thing?
I hear that so much, it sounds nice, yet when one has a crises of faith becuase God is tearing down all the stuff you thought was truth how does one apply what you say above? i.e. when your friend comes to you and is going through a crises of faith becuase stuff he believed as true ends up being shown as false, and he comes to the place where his whole faith is shaken.......... what advice do you give him? To deny his self? And what does that look like?
Blessings :girlheart:
QuoteWhen self is denied and knowing Jesus is all that really matters
This needs some clarification. Under the law we needed to deny ourselves, since human thought and action was condemned by the law. But after Jesus fulfilled and erased the handwriting against us, we need not deny ourselves since we are all accepted in the beloved. After the cross we only need to guard against the compulsion to relate to God based on our thoughts or actions...aka the flesh. Trust that Jesus took care of it all and that God truly without conditions loves and accepts you and all mankind because of Jesus.
Best wishes,
Giz
Quote from: eirinikos on April 03, 2008, 12:45:54 AM
I was just thinking about how I've been battling with how to 'express' my faith. That is, some people wear Jesus T-Shirts, have Jesus bumper stickers, go to church regularly, hang out with christian friends, go on christian 'encounters', etc. You can do all those things and not know anything about God, yet you will be considered a 'christian.'
I myself have struggled because I NEVER felt like I fit in with these christian circles and activities. I never fit in in christian church groups. I NEVER felt right about wearing religion on my sleeve. In face, I've pretty much figured out that there is no such thing as a true religious expression. All things external are just fluff, and idolatry.
The only real religious expression is this: to have love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, kindness, self-control, gentleness, and faithfulness. These things only come from walking with God, having him be the source of your life.The manifestation of these things is to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give to the poor, defend the cause of the orphan, the fatherless, and the widows. There is NO other pure and undefiled religion in the sight of God.
Great post, thanks!
Quote from: Gizmo on April 12, 2008, 01:15:19 AM
QuoteWhen self is denied and knowing Jesus is all that really matters
This needs some clarification. Under the law we needed to deny ourselves, since human thought and action was condemned by the law. But after Jesus fulfilled and erased the handwriting against us, we need not deny ourselves since we are all accepted in the beloved. After the cross we only need to guard against the compulsion to relate to God based on our thoughts or actions...aka the flesh. Trust that Jesus took care of it all and that God truly without conditions loves and accepts you and all mankind because of Jesus.
Best wishes,
Giz
You can not be a disciple of Christ without denying self, this is very clear in the scriptures.
Quote from: jiggyfly on April 15, 2008, 02:19:24 PM
Quote from: Gizmo on April 12, 2008, 01:15:19 AM
QuoteWhen self is denied and knowing Jesus is all that really matters
This needs some clarification. Under the law we needed to deny ourselves, since human thought and action was condemned by the law. But after Jesus fulfilled and erased the handwriting against us, we need not deny ourselves since we are all accepted in the beloved. After the cross we only need to guard against the compulsion to relate to God based on our thoughts or actions...aka the flesh. Trust that Jesus took care of it all and that God truly without conditions loves and accepts you and all mankind because of Jesus.
Best wishes,
Giz
You can not be a disciple of Christ without denying self, this is very clear in the scriptures.
Jiggyfly,
Again I ask you -- What does deny yourself look like?
Is it something YOU do or God does?
Quote from: Loveroftruth on April 11, 2008, 02:35:41 PM
Quote from: jiggyfly on April 11, 2008, 01:55:56 PM
When self is denied and knowing Jesus is all that really matters.
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh,
Want to put that in friendly user terms?
Can WE put self to death or is it a God thing?
I hear that so much, it sounds nice, yet when one has a crises of faith becuase God is tearing down all the stuff you thought was truth how does one apply what you say above? i.e. when your friend comes to you and is going through a crises of faith becuase stuff he believed as true ends up being shown as false, and he comes to the place where his whole faith is shaken.......... what advice do you give him? To deny his self? And what does that look like?
Blessings :girlheart:
Mark 8:34
And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Many of us while seeking Christ followed religion with the misunderstanding that it is Christ or at least the path that leads to Him.
What does it look like to deny oneself?'
How does it look like in your life :dontknow:
Quote from: Gizmo on April 12, 2008, 01:15:19 AM
QuoteWhen self is denied and knowing Jesus is all that really matters
This needs some clarification. Under the law we needed to deny ourselves, since human thought and action was condemned by the law. But after Jesus fulfilled and erased the handwriting against us, we need not deny ourselves since we are all accepted in the beloved. After the cross we only need to guard against the compulsion to relate to God based on our thoughts or actions...aka the flesh. Trust that Jesus took care of it all and that God truly without conditions loves and accepts you and all mankind because of Jesus.
Best wishes,
Giz
Well I have to say that I disagree with this, denying oneself is an important aspect of a believers life. The oppisite of denying oneself is to then endulge the self, which I think is obviously not a Spirit led direction. When sin becomes habitual it is an endulging of the self. If the Spirit of God is looking to influence you, then its influence will be to lead you away from sin being habitual and it then works on your intent, your hearts desires. When the Spirits influence is strong, that means a strong desire to not sin will be present within you, when you then, inspite of this influence, sin anyway, then you are actually fighting the Spirit, and because the habit of sin is strong within you, you sin anyway. When you sin anyway, then you indulge the self, when you fight it and do not sin, you deny the self.
Self denial then is the first step in Overcomming sin. God has already taken his step by leading your desire not to sin, your next step is to follow his lead. Now I understand that many believe that God has taken our steps out of this process and they feel as if God does everything for you. He removes the desire to sin and he orders your steps for you, and walks for you, and removes the struggle to walk away from sin, thus you automactically will not sin again. I think that is a very high standard to place on a person who is struggling actively experiencing their desire to sin. Then you tell them that desire is automactically erased, that they are imagineing the struggle, or the struggle is useless, Christ has done it all for you.
So this belief that Christ has done it all, looks to super impose the struggle with sin, and treat it as if it is no longer a reality. A very heavy burden to lay on a person, it has handicapped many on one end, and created believers who sin and ignore it on the other.
Peace.
Quote from: Gabe Grinstead on March 03, 2008, 06:34:41 AM
Well, ever since finding out that Hell is not eternal, I have lost some direction in my life. Now, I am not saying that is a bad thing, but it is a very uncomfortable feeling. I don't feel the need to go to church. I still pray, talk to God, focus on what is right... But I don't 'strive' anymore. Before I tried as hard as a could because I was trying to escape Hell, but now that Hell does not exist, the drive for Heaven just doesn't seem quite as strong.
Hi Gabe, Maybe you just need to
rest awhile... You think that because you were DOING something before...that now you still have to DO something. You don't. Give yourself some time to rest. It's like going on vacation, and that first day of vacation you're not used to it and you're all antsy because you feel like you need to be DOING something! Just rest for now, my friend.
It sounds like you were dwelling in "fear" all of this time and it takes awhile to recover from that.
Fear is exhausting.
You NEED rest
You know it.
and HE knows it:
He makes me lie down in green pastures,
he leads me beside quiet waters,
he restores my soul. The rest will come later...
Maybe you will stop going to church altogether.
Or maybe you will find a different REASON to go to church..
Who knows. But you'll figure that out later on...
:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Gabe Grinstead on March 03, 2008, 06:34:41 AM
I hear people say 'to live is Christ' but that doesn't make any sense to me. Yeah, I can pretend what it means like I did before, but the reality is - what does it really mean? Gramatically, it doesn't make any sense and I am sure I could be like everyone else are just make up what it means to me. But I can't do that, not in good faith.
Hmmm. "To live is Christ". It makes sense and it doesn't make sense. I think we all try to squish our thoughts and beliefs into a little easy box and slap a label on it, as if our thoughts and beliefs could be condensed into one little phrase. Whatever. It sounds like a bumper sticker to me. and other folks would look at it saying "huh?!" I don't like mysterious stuff. Just come out and say what you mean and mean what you say. ok, sorry... I seem to have gone off on a bit of a tangent. :msealed: Watch.... I guarantee... That in one of my next posts, I'm going to say to someone "TO LIVE IS CHRIST!" :mblush:
Quote
I know others have been in this position... Any advice? Being in a religion solves this problem because you don't have to think, you simply have to listen to your pastor tell you what to do. But, I don't think I would trade emotional stability for the lies of religion. Sometimes I wish I could have taken the 'blue' pill (shamless MATRIX reference). And the problem I am really facing isn't finding out what is WRONG. I already know that Traditional Christianity is WRONG on MANY things. But so is Islam, and Budhism... So finding the wrong is not the problem, it is finding the truth and getting a mystical 'Jesus is the Truth' statement doesn't solve the problem, unfortunately...
Well, I was one who DIDN'T pursue religion because I thought that what the pastors were telling people was WRONG! So basically, you're in your religion relying on other people to tell you stuff. And I was OUTSIDE of religion relying on other people to tell me stuff. know what I mean? So I was pretty much in the same boat as you, just a slightly different perspective. So I understand what you mean.
I think after you give yourself a little time to just rest and not worry so much about everything, you will find yourself renewed and energized. Because you will have moved further away from fear. But y'know, Gabe... I kinda think you will find that the fear you may find yourself in a little later down the road will PUSH you to bringing more love into your life and into your heart. The reason I say this is because once I started believing in UR, a alot of fear left my heart. But then I found that later on, more fear started to kinda pile back in... fear of other people's beliefs/religions... Fear of "well we can't just have people believing in Buddhism!!!" etc. Slowly, though... He helps you through it. You can't sit back and let other people do your thinking for you. No more listening to Pastors, no more listening to other people tell you WHAT you should believe. You just gotta start listening to your heart, listening to his subtle words whispering in your ear. Take it easy, take it slow... no need to rush. No need to know all of the answers, or how things are going to fit or not fit. Just take it slow.
Lay down beside those still waters for now...
and just rest.
:HeartThrob:,
sparrow
There is a very thin line in endulging the Flesh and endulging the Spirit and actually both can be very wrong things to do. In 2Pet. 2:10 it shows that endulging the flesh is a corrupt thing to do, and this simply means that you go with the flow of sinful desire. But there is a far greater wrong in indulging the Spirit to excuse your flesh. Which means that you sin willfully because you know the Spirit will forgive you, which is quenching the Spirit and is a form of despising its authority over you. Instead of applying dilligence to escape the sin in your life, you rest in your sin because of the confidence in your forgiveness. In 2Pet.1:4, this is discussed. The divine nature includes a desire to escape sin and leads to applying dilligence in your escape, the rest mentality takes away this dilligence because of the saftey net of forgiveness, which in turn pacifys the sin in your life. It thinks like this: why try to escape your sinful desires, don't worry about it, Christ has shed his blood, we are forgiven anyway, no matter how much we sin. Dilligence is then not applied, only faith in forgiveness. Then perseverance is passified and those two qualities, perseverance and dilligence, willnot increase. So because you are indulging the Spirit, or relying on it to do things for you that it leads you to do for yourself, you are removing two vital points of individual growth that will only lead you to a very restful mentality, because you are subtracting part of the Overcomming process. Peace.
Mickiel... doesn't that kind of belong on a different thread? Who is talking about sin here?
You are trying to drag this back into the "you must focus on your SIN!!!!!" debate.
No.. no. no.
If a brother needs a bit of a REST, he needs a bit of a rest.
Don't turn this into "indulging the flesh and SINNING!!!!"
My GOD! He has just escaped this CHURCH mentality.
You want to toss him back in?
You want to stick his ankles back in those shackles?
let him be.
Let the man have his rest.
:sigh:
Quote from: sparrow on April 15, 2008, 06:41:56 PM
Mickiel... doesn't that kind of belong on a different thread? Who is talking about sin here?
You are trying to drag this back into the "you must focus on your SIN!!!!!" debate.
No.. no. no.
If a brother needs a bit of a REST, he needs a bit of a rest.
Don't turn this into "indulging the flesh and SINNING!!!!"
My GOD! He has just escaped this CHURCH mentality.
You want to toss him back in?
You want to stick his ankles back in those shackles?
let him be.
Let the man have his rest.
:sigh:
Well I see it different than you do, when someone is loosing Spiritual energy you think they need rest, I think in terms of why the energy is being lost. There is a drain, a development is occuring, most likely a change is comming. In my view a battle is about to be fought, in your view rest is needed. So you seek to silence my view and speak yours, which I think is just a different kind of battle. Peace.
Quote from: Mickiel on April 15, 2008, 07:01:05 PM
Well I see it different than you do, when someone is loosing Spiritual energy you think they need rest, I think in terms of why the energy is being lost. There is a drain, a development is occuring, most likely a change is comming. In my view a battle is about to be fought, in your view rest is needed. So you seek to silence my view and speak yours, which I think is just a different kind of battle. Peace.
That's fine. I have no problem with you speaking your views, I am not trying to "silence" your views.
Not everything is a "battle". I guess you see it that way, but I do not.
And yes, I believe that rest is called for.
There is nothing wrong with that.
It is in RESTING where we gain refreshment and become energized.
He
does lead us to still waters
He whispers into our ear.
When we quiet ourselves from within.
and He
does restore our soul... :HeartThrob:
[quote author=sparrow link
That's fine. I have no problem with you speaking your views, I am not trying to "silence" your views.
Not everything is a "battle". I guess you see it that way, but I do not.
And yes, I believe that rest is called for.
There is nothing wrong with that.
It is in RESTING where we gain refreshment and become energized.
He does lead us to still waters
He whispers into our ear.
When we quiet ourselves from within.
and He does restore our soul... :HeartThrob:
[/quote]
Well I don't see that rest is called for when God snatches someone out of the Fire, now the most exciting period in their Lives is about to occur. When I am stressed out I cannot rest properly, because its time to deal with the stress, not lay down on it until it goes away. You must forgive me for not adhereing to your views, but I will never seek to silence them, your thoughts are not my thoughts. I think the still waters mentality is worse than the mentality of the churchs of this world. You come out of the fire and lay down in the bliss. I don't see what good that does anyone, unless they just seek escape from reality and just need to float on their new found Spiritual bliss.
Sin is an important focus in this transfer from darkness to Light. No, you don't have to fight for your Salvation, now the realization that it really is free is comming into focus. Now that energy can really accomplish something because it will be focused in the right direction with the right mindset on Overcomming and why Overcomming. Overcomming not for your Salvation, but for yourself to be a Master of the things in your life, not a Spiritual bear in hibernation, resting for a God who will wake you up sometime in the future. I cannot take Joy in your view, but I can take Joy that the Brothers real journey seems to be on the verge of Gods direction. I hope he takes the Journey with active participation, and not treat it like a vacation. Peace.
Quote from: Mickiel on April 15, 2008, 07:24:00 PM
Well I don't see that rest is called for when God snatches someone out of the Fire, now the most exciting period in their Lives is about to occur. When I am stressed out I cannot rest properly, because its time to deal with the stress, not lay down on it until it goes away. You must forgive me for not adhereing to your views, but I will never seek to silence them, your thoughts are not my thoughts. I think the still waters mentality is worse than the mentality of the churchs of this world. You come out of the fire and lay down in the bliss. I don't see what good that does anyone, unless they just seek escape from reality and just need to float on their new found Spiritual bliss.
Sin is an important focus in this transfer from darkness to Light. No, you don't have to fight for your Salvation, now the realization that it really is free is comming into focus. Now that energy can really accomplish something because it will be focused in the right direction with the right mindset on Overcomming and why Overcomming. Overcomming not for your Salvation, but for yourself to be a Master of the things in your life, not a Spiritual bear in hibernation, resting for a God who will wake you up sometime in the future. I cannot take Joy in your view, but I can take Joy that the Brothers real journey seems to be on the verge of Gods direction. I hope he takes the Journey with active participation, and not treat it like a vacation. Peace.
Gabe,
What Mickiel is obviously alluding to regarding my words, is not where my heart is at. At all.
I hope that you see this.
I've had these same ideas and thoughts written over my posts in red ink before.
Just red ink all over that does not belong and does not FIT what I am truly saying.
I have no desire to engage in fruitlessness such as this.
It's all right..
One day we will truly be great friends and play checkers, Mickiel.. :winkgrin: :HeartThrob:
But for now, we're just having a little breakdown in communication it seems.
I suppose I can understand why you see what you do in my words...
but there is nothing I can say or do to make you see it the way it is intended.
It's a perspective thing... that's all.
peace,
sparrow
[quote author=sparrow link=
Gabe,
What Mickiel is obviously alluding to regarding my words, is not where my heart is at. At all.
I hope that you see this.
I've had these same ideas and thoughts written over my posts in red ink before.
Just red ink all over that does not belong and does not FIT what I am truly saying.
I have no desire to engage in fruitlessness such as this.
It's all right..
One day we will truly be great friends and play checkers, Mickiel.. :winkgrin: :HeartThrob:
But for now, we're just having a little breakdown in communication it seems.
I suppose I can understand why you see what you do in my words...
but there is nothing I can say or do to make you see it the way it is intended.
It's a perspective thing... that's all.
peace,
sparrow
[/quote]
Well I assure you that I hold no intention of blotting out what you have said in red ink, your thoughts are more common than mine. And I am not argueing a point, I am simply expressing my views as you are, and enjoying the freedom to do so. When someone feels they have lost direction in Life, that can be a very important crossroad for them, and often is the very entrance to them finding the Truth. That is more important than how you or I feel. What was lost and feeling downhearted, now is on the verge of being found, which is a cause to rejoice.
I quess where me and you differ, is that when you run accross such a person, you feel their pain and want to lead them to lay down and rest, and I understand that, espically if thats how you handled it yourself. I didnot handle it like that, and still don't to this day. Nor do I encourage such an approach. If you have lost your direction, then find it. Get up off of your depression and do something about it. And God will help you to do something. I see then two contrasting views to how to handle loosing your direction in Life, One, Rest in Christ; or secondly, do something in Christ. I choose the latter, and pray God finds me doing as such when he returns. A doer of his words, not resting on them.
Peace.
Gabe... When I say that I believe you should "rest"... and let him lead you to the still waters, I am saying to take it easy. To quietly, in the stillness of your heart, contemplate what it means that all are saved. To, instead of feeling like you have to "DO" something at this moment, or that you have to figure out what to do about church or other believers or even what your family is thinking right now...
to Just put ALL of that aside.
and to slow down.
and peacefully contemplate just what it means...
that all are saved.
allow yourself the quiet time to explore the profoundness of it all.
That our God is a God of PEACE and LOVE.
and nothing else.
HE *IS* LOVE.
You don't have to rush out and find all the answers and figure out the giant puzzle of life right now.
For now, I personally feel you should have a time of rest.
A time to allow His love to personally fill you..
in the stillness of the moment.
In the quietness of your own mind.
You know how sometimes when you're concentrating really hard and your forehead is all wrinkled up and you have this sorta grim look on your face. And then you catch a glimpse of yourself in the mirror?! :laughing7: You instantly relax your forehead and your whole face kinda relaxes for a minute... That's what I'm talking about..
Just rest for a spell.
Go out and sit outside when you can and look at His creation.
Think about how much more beautiful it is now knowing that all people are brothers and sisters...
and that God loves ALL of us. With a passion, none of us have ever humanly felt..
Just rest, brother.
Let yourself slowly be immersed in the wonder of it all...
He is right beside you leading you to the still waters..
The rest of the stuff will come later..
but for now,
just rest.
peace,
sparrow
Quote from: Loveroftruth on April 15, 2008, 02:46:27 PM
What does it look like to deny oneself?'
How does it look like in your life :dontknow:
You honestly don't know??? You don't understand what it means to deny self?
I do know, I just know that some have a really super spiritual definition of it.... meaning we have to be beat to a pulp, suffer a lot to finally "die to self".
I was just wondering what it looked like to you :dontknow:
QuoteMark 8:34
And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
That was said BEFORE the cross, before Jesus ended the system of relating to God based on our actions. God relates to us based on Jesus. In other words, I am freed from the commandments of Jesus by the sacrifice of Jesus! So I feel no need to deny myself, take up my cross or any such thing. But if you do, go for it!
Quote from: Loveroftruth on April 16, 2008, 12:14:27 AM
I do know, I just know that some have a really super spiritual definition of it.... meaning we have to be beat to a pulp, suffer a lot to finally "die to self".
I was just wondering what it looked like to you :dontknow:
I agree with you about how some see it but I would call that definition carnal rather than super spiritual.
I agree with Paul's concept.
Galatians 5:16-26
16 So I advise you to live according to your new life in the Holy Spirit. Then you won't be doing what your sinful nature craves. 17 The old sinful nature loves to do evil, which is just opposite from what the Holy Spirit wants. And the Spirit gives us desires that are opposite from what the sinful nature desires. These two forces are constantly fighting each other, and your choices are never free from this conflict. 18 But when you are directed by the Holy Spirit, you are no longer subject to the law.
19 When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, your lives will produce these evil results: sexual immorality, impure thoughts, eagerness for lustful pleasure, 20 idolatry, participation in demonic activities, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, divisions, the feeling that everyone is wrong except those in your own little group, 21 envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other kinds of sin. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
22 But when the Holy Spirit controls our lives, he will produce this kind of fruit in us: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control. Here there is no conflict with the law.
24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed the passions and desires of their sinful nature to his cross and crucified them there. 25 If we are living now by the Holy Spirit, let us follow the Holy Spirit's leading in every part of our lives. 26 Let us not become conceited, or irritate one another, or be jealous of one another.
Quote from: Gizmo on April 16, 2008, 03:24:14 AM
QuoteMark 8:34
And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
That was said BEFORE the cross, before Jesus ended the system of relating to God based on our actions. God relates to us based on Jesus. In other words, I am freed from the commandments of Jesus by the sacrifice of Jesus! So I feel no need to deny myself, take up my cross or any such thing. But if you do, go for it!
What about His command to love others????
Quote from: jiggyfly on April 16, 2008, 02:23:52 PM
Quote from: Loveroftruth on April 16, 2008, 12:14:27 AM
I do know, I just know that some have a really super spiritual definition of it.... meaning we have to be beat to a pulp, suffer a lot to finally "die to self".
I was just wondering what it looked like to you :dontknow:
I agree with you about how some see it but I would call that definition carnal rather than super spiritual.
I agree with Paul's concept.
Galatians 5:16-26
16 So I advise you to live according to your new life in the Holy Spirit. Then you won't be doing what your sinful nature craves. 17 The old sinful nature loves to do evil, which is just opposite from what the Holy Spirit wants. And the Spirit gives us desires that are opposite from what the sinful nature desires. These two forces are constantly fighting each other, and your choices are never free from this conflict. 18 But when you are directed by the Holy Spirit, you are no longer subject to the law.
19 When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, your lives will produce these evil results: sexual immorality, impure thoughts, eagerness for lustful pleasure, 20 idolatry, participation in demonic activities, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, divisions, the feeling that everyone is wrong except those in your own little group, 21 envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other kinds of sin. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
22 But when the Holy Spirit controls our lives, he will produce this kind of fruit in us: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control. Here there is no conflict with the law.
24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed the passions and desires of their sinful nature to his cross and crucified them there. 25 If we are living now by the Holy Spirit, let us follow the Holy Spirit's leading in every part of our lives. 26 Let us not become conceited, or irritate one another, or be jealous of one another.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: jiggyfly on April 16, 2008, 02:27:02 PM
Quote from: Gizmo on April 16, 2008, 03:24:14 AM
QuoteMark 8:34
And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
That was said BEFORE the cross, before Jesus ended the system of relating to God based on our actions. God relates to us based on Jesus. In other words, I am freed from the commandments of Jesus by the sacrifice of Jesus! So I feel no need to deny myself, take up my cross or any such thing. But if you do, go for it!
What about His command to love others????
But if I am commanded to love someone then its not real love :sigh:
If you hold a gun to me and say "LOVE ME" I wont be able to. Love is something that HAS TO BE BY FREE WILL.
That is why ET is Such a bad teaching, it basically says "God wants to you to love Him and wants you to come to Him because you want to but if you dont he will punish and tourture you :sigh: :sigh: :sigh: :sigh:
Love can NOT be command IMO
Quote from: Loveroftruth on April 16, 2008, 02:39:59 PM
Quote from: jiggyfly on April 16, 2008, 02:27:02 PM
Quote from: Gizmo on April 16, 2008, 03:24:14 AM
QuoteMark 8:34
And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
That was said BEFORE the cross, before Jesus ended the system of relating to God based on our actions. God relates to us based on Jesus. In other words, I am freed from the commandments of Jesus by the sacrifice of Jesus! So I feel no need to deny myself, take up my cross or any such thing. But if you do, go for it!
What about His command to love others????
But if I am commanded to love someone then its not real love :sigh:
If you hold a gun to me and say "LOVE ME" I wont be able to. Love is something that HAS TO BE BY FREE WILL.
That is why ET is Such a bad teaching, it basically says "God wants to you to love Him and wants you to come to Him because you want to but if you dont he will punish and tourture you :sigh: :sigh: :sigh: :sigh:
Love can NOT be command IMO
So why did Jesus do it??
QuoteWhat about His command to love others????
My failure to love others won't affect God's view of me. Loving others out of a fear of punishment from God is not love anyway. However, I try to follow my heart, which is where Jesus and the Kingdom are. And they will prompt me to be kind and loving to others.
John 15:9-17
9 "I have loved you even as the Father has loved me. Remain in my love. 10 When you obey me, you remain in my love, just as I obey my Father and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that you will be filled with my joy. Yes, your joy will overflow! 12 I command you to love each other in the same way that I love you. 13 And here is how to measure it—the greatest love is shown when people lay down their lives for their friends. 14 You are my friends if you obey me. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a master doesn't confide in his servants. Now you are my friends, since I have told you everything the Father told me. 16 You didn't choose me. I chose you. I appointed you to go and produce fruit that will last, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask for, using my name. 17 I command you to love each other.
1John 2:7&8
7 Dear friends, I am not writing a new commandment, for it is an old one you have always had, right from the beginning. This commandment—to love one another—is the same message you heard before. 8 Yet it is also new. This commandment is true in Christ and is true among you, because the darkness is disappearing and the true light is already shining.
1John 4:7&8
7 Dear friends, let us continue to love one another, for love comes from God. Anyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 But anyone who does not love does not know God—for God is love.
Quote from: Loveroftruth on April 11, 2008, 12:50:01 PM
When does the identity crisis end :sigh: :mblush: :msealed: :mshock: :dontknow:
My suspicion is that God probably does this in cycles in our lives :happy3:---I think I tend to feel when I go through identity crisis type situations that "
I shouldn't be here. I shouldn't feel like this. I have a responsibility to stop feeling this way, to fix it..." But I think God is showing me that this is just part of the cycle so just trust that this is where he has me and enjoy spending time with him while I'm in this season. In Acts 9 Saul of Tarsus went through a MAJOR identity crisis so that he could stop trusting in his own righteousness and trust in God's righteousness. I guess we tend to see identity crisis as something bad, but it brings about wonderful things. Maybe it's quicker as we just concentrate on who he is and his love for us and just talking with him... :HeartThrob:
Jesus left religion also. Granted, he was kicked out, but he did leave. And he just went about spreading the Truth and love of God to people. It wasn't easy though! He had many heated conversations with religious folks.
He was rejected by many. He didn't have a consistent place to lay his head.
Its so powerful to look at Jesus and all he went through as our example of how we should live. Jesus is the answer.