I grew out of Christianity.
I still have the same relationship with God that I had when I was a Christian.
Here is what no longer makes me a Christian.
I don't believe that God has to kill in order to forgive. The shedding of Blood for the remissions of sin is an archaic Jewish practice that Christianity adopted.
In your first post you said Tentmaker is your "go-to" site about UR.
Interesting. Gary, the site in general, and most of us in the discussion forum believe the scriptures. Which includes Jesus' death on the cross - which included the shedding of blood - for our salvation.
We also ask that discussion be done within the scriptures. It will be interesting to see how you accomplish that since you apparently don't believe Hebrews 9 and various other related scriptures.
IMO, not calling onself a "Christian" isn't the primary issue. But do you also believe you've "outgrown" the scriptures and Jesus' gift of salvation?
IMO, Saying you "grew out" of Christianity implies that your spiritual growth
is beyond Christianity and we, Christians, therefore have nothing to offer
you in terms of insight. You, by your statement, imply that you "know" the
infinite God would not act a certain way. A way which has been the very basis
of the Gospel, the fundamental reason came to dir. Yes, God COULD have chosen to forgive without
the shed blood of Jesus covering our sins, but the bBible is clear that that is NOT the way He chose. :Peace2:
Quote from: jabcat on June 02, 2013, 01:02:29 AM
In your first post you said Tentmaker is your "go-to" site about UR.
Yup. Lots of people don't know about UR. This is a perfect site for the teachings of UR. This discussion forum could be very helpful to many who are stuck in "fundamentalist Christianity"
Quote from: jabcat on June 02, 2013, 01:02:29 AM
Interesting. Gary, the site in general, and most of us in the discussion forum believe the scriptures. Which includes Jesus' death on the cross - which included the shedding of blood - for our salvation.
I realize that. I am still inspired by much that is in the Bible. I still use many of the memory verses that I learned over the years for inspiration. I believe that a relationship with God can be had in any religion. God does not care if we are Christian or not. If God can have a relationship with anyone who seeks it through faith, then the shedding of blood must not be a criteria. It works for those who believe it. It is not an essential doctrine for a relationship with God.
Quote from: jabcat on June 02, 2013, 01:02:29 AM
We also ask that discussion be done within the scriptures. It will be interesting to see how you accomplish that since you apparently don't believe Hebrews 9 and various other related scriptures.
So you are saying that a relationship with God depends on belief in the Bible?
I disagree.
Quote from: jabcat on June 02, 2013, 01:02:29 AM
IMO, not calling onself a "Christian" isn't the primary issue. But do you also believe you've "outgrown" the scriptures and Jesus' gift of salvation?
Salvation from what? Am I saved? Being saved has to do with wholeness. Spirituality is key to wholeness. I retain my spirituality and my relationship with God, though I no longer qualify as a Christian......according to the Bible.
I work on my salvation daily. Do you think it is just given?
Quote from: ded2daworld on June 02, 2013, 03:09:51 AM
IMO, Saying you "grew out" of Christianity implies that your spiritual growth
is beyond Christianity and we, Christians, therefore have nothing to offer
you in terms of insight. You, by your statement, imply that you "know" the
infinite God would not act a certain way. A way which has been the very basis
of the Gospel, the fundamental reason came to dir. Yes, God COULD have chosen to forgive without
the shed blood of Jesus covering our sins, but the bBible is clear that that is NOT the way He chose. :Peace2:
So you think it makes sense that God requires blood in order to forgive?
BTW you do have something to offer me. I was a Christian for many years. Christian universalism was part of my leaning process. God transcends religion.
You do not believe that Christ paid the price for mankind's sins? What do you believe, then?
Ed said, "So you think it makes sense that God requires blood in order to forgive?"
No, I said that it was the way that God has chosen to deal with our sin.
God is Love, Love is sacrifice.
When you love someone, you make sacrifices for them. The ultimate sacrifice or "proof" of love
is a person giving up their life for someone else. How could we understand the truth about Love
and God without the example of pure love/pure sacrifice done for us? Ed also said that God transcends religion
which of course is true since God transcends everything but His infinite self. I was trying to put into perspective
that you said that You also (like God)had transcended religion. It must be nice. :Peace2:
Quote from: ded2daworld on June 02, 2013, 05:02:41 PM
Ed said, "So you think it makes sense that God requires blood in order to forgive?"
No, I said that it was the way that God has chosen to deal with our sin.
God is Love, Love is sacrifice.
When you love someone, you make sacrifices for them. The ultimate sacrifice or "proof" of love
is a person giving up their life for someone else. How could we understand the truth about Love
and God without the example of pure love/pure sacrifice done for us? Ed also said that God transcends religion
which of course is true since God transcends everything but His infinite self. I was trying to put into perspective
that you said that You also (like God)had transcended religion. It must be nice. :Peace2:
Ded2, this is so beautiful! I am copying this and saving it. Thanks. :thumbsup:
Ed, if you don't believe all the scriptures, then on what basis do you choose the parts you do believe? True, those who never heard, who practice another faith (i.e. the aboriginals in America 1000 years ago, who worshiped the "Great Spirit" in various rituals), will be judged by their deeds, just like everybody else. Some will be found with their good deeds outweighing their bad deeds (Romans 2 explains that in some who never had the law that the law of God is by nature written on their hearts), others not. Some will receive reward, while others not. But the ultimate salvation is not so much a matter of being saved from anything (yes, the believers, the faithful, will be saved from the penalty of their sins), but to be saved for something - to be a priestly nation unto God, to rule and reign with the Christ over the earth during the age called the Great Millennium. This blessing is far beyond our imaginations ("no eye has seen, no ear has heard what he has in store for [the overcomers]"). To miss this would in itself be a punishment. These things I say here are my beliefs, and I realize full well that I do NOT understand all. I am quite sure that many things are still veiled from me.
HERE IS THE REASON I BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURES: personal experience. I have experienced the love of God in my own life, and I have been amazed at what he has done for me. The experiences of which I speak are not just circumstance or coincidence. I could simply write off a few experiences as mere circumstance or coincidence, but the way God has worked in my life to bring me toward him has amazed me - really blown me away at times. This far too much to attribute to mere circumstance or coincidence. God has drawn me to him and has stayed a few steps ahead of me all my life preparing the way for me, and now I can look back (from age 50) and see just how orchestrated my whole life has been, despite my human error. God has used even my errors for this glory. I now have no doubt (I used to doubt) because I can see God working in miraculous ways throughout my whole life. WOW! Believe me, friend, you can trust the scriptures (which were inspired by God) and you can trust God, because I tell you from experience, HE IS FAITHFUL!!!
God is spirit, we worship(my wording focus,rest in) in spirit,everything shown in scripture leads us to this end.The word is needed as part of this process but is not absolutely necessary if God chooses to bypass that particular part of the journey ....
Quote from: onlytruth on June 02, 2013, 10:18:41 PM
God is spirit, we worship(my wording focus,rest in) in spirit,everything shown in scripture leads us to this end.The word is needed as part of this process but is not absolutely necessary if God chooses to bypass that particular part of the journey ....
Yes, if someone doesn't have them. OTOH, to whom much is given, much is required.
-------
I believe the whole "by nature..knowing,..not having law" etc. issue is describing this;
Many today who claim to be "Bible believing," preach ANOTHER GOSPEL and ANOTHER WAY OF SALVATION. These claim that Paul teaches that IGNORANCE will save men, when he says that "The Gentiles, which have not the law, are a law unto themselves" (Rom. 2:14). They gather from this that the law which their conscience furnishes is sufficient to justify them.
But
such persons misunderstand Paul. His argument is that the whole world is guilty before God (Rom. 3:19); that the Gentiles, who had not the written law, were condemned, not justified, by the light of conscience, which, whether it excused them or accused them proved that they were unworthy sinners and thus estranged from the life of God, even as Israel who had the written law were condemned by it; "For by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Rom. 3:20). The law given to the Israelite revealed his weakness, and was intended to show him that he was unable to justify himself before God; for "By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight." The written law condemned the Israelite, and the Gentiles had light enough in their conscience to condemn them; and thus every mouth is stopped from claiming any inherent life, and all the world stands guilty before God.
...the Scriptures close every door of hope save one, showing that not one of the condemned is able to secure eternal life by meritorious works, and that it is equally useless to plead ignorance as a ground of salvation. Ignorance cannot entitle anyone to the REWARD of faith and obedience! Salvation by IGNORANCE! Indeed! ANOTHER GOSPEL! ANOTHER WAY! "For there is none other name under heaven, given among men, whereby we must be saved!" (Acts 4:12).
Many Christians, unwilling to believe that so many billions of ignorant heathen will be eternally lost (which they have been taught means to be sent to a place of eternal and hopeless torment), insist, notwithstanding these Bible statements, that God will not condemn the ignorant. I admire their liberality of heart and their appreciation of God's goodness, but urge them not to be too hasty about discarding or ignoring the words of Scripture. God has a blessing for all, in a better way than through ignorance!
.. If so, the coming and death of Jesus were useless, the preaching and suffering of apostles and saints were vain, and the so-called Gospel, instead of being good news, is very bad news. Leave the heathen alone in their darkness and ignorance and the majority will be saved by living up to the light they have. Send them the Gospel and we know from past experience that the majority of them will reject it and be lost. These conclusions are inevitable. You cannot escape them while you entertain the notion of the majority of the heathen being saved by living up to the light they have. Such reasoning is a hideous affront to the atoning sacrifice of Jesus, and a wicked blasphemy against God and His plan of redemption. ANOTHER GOSPEL! ANOTHER WAY!
Others, craftily seeking to evade these conclusions, invent the silly myth that in some unexplained way all men have been dealt with by God. These conniving souls presume that in some mysterious way God reveals Himself to each and every son of Adam sometime during his life. Perhaps through the conscience - or one dark night while the heathen is standing under the canopy of the heavens observing the majesty of the star-studded sky - there suddenly comes that burst of inner revelation there is a God! And if, in that instant, we are told, that man will seek after God he will find Him. To which I answer: -Tommyrot! Rubbish! ANOTHER GOSPEL! ANOTHER WAY! And those who teach the lie are deceivers. Why, bless your heart, if God habitually and consistently reveals Himself sovereignly and independently to every man who lives upon this earth, then what need is there to print Bibles, or send missionaries, or intercede in prayer, or preach the Gospel? You will have to tear the Bible all to pieces if you teach such nonsense. It is blasphemy.
The Word of God asks the burning question: "How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe on Him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? and how shall they preach, except they be sent?" (Rom. 10: 14-15). And these poor deluded souls pretend to answer all these "how shalls " of Scripture by creating a method by which it can be done! They have invented a system by which men can believe without hearing and hear without a preacher, and under this system no preacher need be sent.
If God independently and sovereignly reveals Himself to every man then the "Great Commission" is a monstrous farce and should be torn out of the Bible and deposited on the garbage heap. No need to "go into all the world and preach the Gospel to EVERY CREATURE" if the Spirit deals with EVERY MAN sometime, somewhere, somehow during his life apart from the ministry of the Body of Christ. Ah! The argument is really the great "cop out," a silly invention of conniving deceivers who are unwilling to face the fact that God would permit billions of men to pass through this life without any chance of salvation, and equally unwilling to concede that God has any plan for the salvation of those billions in the future. So - in order to consign them an to eternal damnation they concoct this outrageous lie that God really DID give these billions a chance, apart from the preaching of the Gospel of God's grace in Jesus Christ, that these rejected His dealing, and have of their own free wills been damned. Such a teaching contradicts the Word of God, making a travesty of the fact that "God has committed unto US the word of reconciliation" and has "given to US the ministry of reconciliation" (II Cor. 5:18-19).
The fundamental flaw in the theory is that even if a heathen looked up at the stars one beautiful night and became deeply impressed that there must be a great God out there somewhere, such understanding in no way reveals to his darkened heart the wonderful truth that this God has a Son, that His Son's name is Jesus, that Jesus died for His sins, and that only by faith in Jesus Christ can a man be saved. I challenge anyone to prove that the vast multitudes of heathen die having rejected Jesus Christ who died for them who was revealed to their hearts by the Holy Spirit apart from the preaching of the Gospel. How foolish can men be! Let someone answer - if they can! Ah, it is but ANOTHER GOSPEL! ANOTHER WAY! J. Preston Eby
Before Jesus, God revealed himself to many,some were God fearing , some were not.
The old testament is full of"God spoke".I will venture a guess and say they had received atonement (an understanding of forgiveness)that allowed them to hear His voice better.I see this the same way when we realize our sins are forgiven us , allowing us to be at peace and hear God in our spirits.
the bible is an example of story after story, how God breaks through so He can speak to us, but then our religion gets in the way
Quote from: Eduard on June 02, 2013, 02:52:32 PM
You do not believe that Christ paid the price for mankind's sins? What do you believe, then?
I believe God is love (from the Bible)
I believe God is omnipresent. (Christian theology)
I believe that relationship can be taught without reward/condemnation. Relationship and spirituality can be taught without the loving God requiring blood.
I believe in spirituality.
How did I develop these beliefs? Personal experience. I found God through prayer and Bible study. I progressed in Christianity through many faith changes........eternal torment, annihilation, universal salvation.
When I allowed my faith to change even further, I found the relationship did not change, but I no longer qualified according to the Bible to be a Christian. What else can I do?
BTW thank you all for your replies. If I did not get back you specifically it is NOT because I did not read it. it is because I have just a little time.
:winkgrin:
Quote from: jbertonbounds on June 02, 2013, 06:05:53 PM
Ed, if you don't believe all the scriptures, then on what basis do you choose the parts you do believe?
Inspiration. As a Christian I had a practice of reading the Bible, when a particular verse spoke to me, I memorized it. I kept all of the verses on a 3x5 card just for reverence. I went through the card daily. As I spoke the verses they got deeper and more meaningful to me. I still use many of though verse because they are ingrained deeply in my psyche.
I chose the verses that I fond to be truth, because they inspired me, helped me, healed me, and provided spiritual guidance to me specifically.
Quote from: jbertonbounds on June 02, 2013, 06:05:53 PM
HERE IS THE REASON I BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURES: personal experience. I have experienced the love of God in my own life, and I have been amazed at what he has done for me.
We are the same here. Christ means anointed. I believe that there is an anointing that is available to every person. Christ is within all by this manner. Knowing God is a practice that takes exercising the noble spirit of God that is available to all.
.
"I chose the verses that I fond to be truth...."
May I ask what verses in the Bible you found to be un-true?
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 03, 2013, 09:27:20 PM
"I chose the verses that I fond to be truth...."
May I ask what verses in the Bible you found to be un-true?
I am glad that you asked this question. If I had not found that this question had been asked I would have asked it myself.
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 03, 2013, 09:27:20 PM
"I chose the verses that I fond to be truth...."
May I ask what verses in the Bible you found to be un-true?
At the time that I was doing the memory verses I did not consider any verses in the Bible to be untrue. I chose verses that inspired me to memorize because I needed that particular word in my life. It works.
One of the verses that I memorzed was "Be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind that you may prove what is that perfect will of God"...............that was years 20 years ago and I still believe in renewed mind.
It helps to have something to renew the mind to. The verses helped my in that way.
Some parts of the Bible I did not find too awfully inspiring so I did not memorize them. It is not like you can memorize the whole Bible. I have a pretty good handle on the whole Bible though........or at least I use to. I just don't don't need that particular practice anymore. I was doing that in my early 20s. I am 48 now.
.
Quote from: jbertonbounds on June 03, 2013, 11:25:10 PM
I DO NOT AGREE WITH EBY.
I'm not saying every aspect is "correct", but I personally think he makes some very good points. I know you didn't say all those things he addresses. I didn't even quote you, I was also addressing the issue in general as may relate to this thread, and even other discussions about this topic on the forum in the past. Some people do believe what Mr. Eby is addressing - that peoples' works, or ignorance, or innocence, etc. "gives them a pass". Or OTOH, some have "outgrown" the "outdated" ideas in the Bible that say no man comes to the Father but through Jesus. The "outgrown" deal is kind'a where this all started.
I think the main point for me is that every knee will bow and every tongue confess.
Quote from: ed on June 02, 2013, 09:13:58 AM
I believe that a relationship with God can be had in any religion. God does not care if we are Christian or not. If God can have a relationship with anyone who seeks it through faith, then the shedding of blood must not be a criteria. It works for those who believe it. It is not an essential doctrine for a relationship with God.
So you are saying that a relationship with God depends on belief in the Bible?
I disagree.
Salvation from what? Am I saved? Being saved has to do with wholeness. Spirituality is key to wholeness. I retain my spirituality and my relationship with God, though I no longer qualify as a Christian......according to the Bible.
I work on my salvation daily. Do you think it is just given?
I'll work from bottom to top. I don't know if you're saved/spiritually reborn or not. I can only share and contend for what I understand the scriptures to say, as accurately translated as possible, and Spirit revealed.
Given? Absolutely, according to the scriptures. I believe scriptural salvation
primarily refers to the spiritual new birth and then being given an immortal body at His appearing]; which is a free gift, through the impartation of faith to believe and trust in Jesus as the Savior - through His sacrificial death on the cross. Grace, not works - works a result of imparted faith and the relationship established through the free gift. Much scripture to support that. Maybe you don't believe those. We "work out" our salvation, i.e., the daily walk of obedience, learning, growing, etc. But if anyone "works"
for their salvation, Paul uses the term "fallen from grace" - to indicate a trust in something else besides the all-sufficient finished work of Jesus - yes, on the bloody, sweaty, painful cross. The way God chose to reconcile Himself to us (more scripture). He was wounded for our transgressions, by His stripes we are healed.
Regarding "we ask discussion be done within the scriptures", I was addressing the forum guidelines for anyone to continue posting after some point ["TM Scriptural Expectations Regarding the Scriptures"]. So no, I wasn't saying a relationship with God depends on belief in the Bible. Some don't have it, yet God can miraculously reveal His Son to them. I
do believe that's often/usually through the sharing of the Gospel however, which is found in the scriptures - as Paul said "how can they believe on Him (Jesus) Whom they have not heard, and how they can hear unless someone tell them".
To whom much is given, much is required, so if one
does have access to the scriptures, and chooses to go against them/deny them, I believe that's a pretty big red flag - i.e., that at that point we may find ourselves ignorant of God's ways, actually being deceived and deceiving others, following what we think is a "light within" - when in fact, we may be following our own imaginations or even the whispers of the deceiver. Some things are heretical (UR rather than ET) - some things are apostate (no need for the shed blood of Christ or the cross of Calvary, other ways to the Father besides through the Son). I don't judge you, but I am examining what you say. Jesus said
His Words judge us. If we reject them...
Quote from: jabcat on June 04, 2013, 12:18:42 AM
Quote from: jbertonbounds on June 03, 2013, 11:25:10 PM
I DO NOT AGREE WITH EBY.
I'm not saying every aspect is "correct", but I personally think he makes some very good points. I know you didn't say all those things he addresses. I didn't even quote you, I was also addressing the issue in general as may relate to this thread, and even other discussions about this topic on the forum in the past. Some people do believe what Mr. Eby is addressing - that peoples' works, or ignorance, or innocence, etc. "gives them a pass". Or OTOH, some have "outgrown" the "outdated" ideas in the Bible that say no man comes to the Father but through Jesus. The "outgrown" deal is kind'a where this all started.
I think the main point for me is that every knee will bow and every tongue confess.
I understand.
And I don't subscribe to that modern "outgrown" stuff either. I believe, yet without scripture to back it up, that those who never heard will not be dealt with harshly if they lived clean self-less lives - and I'm sure some of them do. Surely they (the "good" ones who never heard) will be purified in the most humane way of all at the judgement. However, I don't see how they would ever be able to be a part of the millennial kingdom either, since they never knew of Jesus. This remains a big question in my mind - kinda seems unfair. :dontknow:
I see all this conversation as us growing into a more direct communication with the Father(spirit).Jesus showed us the way and now we are slowly coming to a new understanding of what this means.Sometimes religous jargon(which had its place:))stops us from going directly to the spirit
So what will stop us from moving forward in the kingdom?"don't deceive yourselfs,drunkards,idolators,fornicators etc. etc. will not enter in...so until all testing and passing is done we will still be steps away.
I see God revealing the steps to accomplish this by His will and not ours, lest we become proud.
So resting in the Spirit and stopping our anxious ways will give us peace,knowing He will complete the good work in us!
Blessings on the journey! :dsunny:
Quote from: jabcat on June 04, 2013, 12:38:34 AM
Given? Absolutely, according to the scriptures. I believe scriptural salvation primarily refers to the spiritual new birth and then being given an immortal body at His appearing]; which is a free gift, through the impartation of faith to believe and trust in Jesus as the Savior - through His sacrificial death on the cross. Grace, not works - works a result of imparted faith and the relationship established through the free gift. Much scripture to support that. Maybe you don't believe those. We "work out" our salvation, i.e., the daily walk of obedience, learning, growing, etc. But if anyone "works" for their salvation, Paul uses the term "fallen from grace" - to indicate a trust in something else besides the all-sufficient finished work of Jesus - yes, on the bloody, sweaty, painful cross. The way God chose to reconcile Himself to us (more scripture). He was wounded for our transgressions, by His stripes we are healed.
I used salvation to be wholeness. Sozo..........made whole. When "we get saved" we don't all of suden understand our salvation, wholeness, relationship. It takes work. I am not talking about the grace that makes it available to all. I am talking about the work of experiencing it. Christians want to fight about what really saves a person. I opt out of that fight. I want to talk about what makes the relationship work. To make the relationship work, it takes effort on the part of the believer. Not good works effort, paying attention effort. "Study to show thyself approved" is to put some effort into it. It does not mean study the scriptures. It means study the life.
Quote from: jabcat on June 04, 2013, 12:38:34 AM
To whom much is given, much is required, so if one does have access to the scriptures, and chooses to go against them/deny them, I believe that's a pretty big red flag - i.e., that at that point we may find ourselves ignorant of God's ways, actually being deceived and deceiving others, following what we think is a "light within" - when in fact, we may be following our own imaginations or even the whispers of the deceiver. Some things are heretical (UR rather than ET) - some things are apostate (no need for the shed blood of Christ or the cross of Calvary, other ways to the Father besides through the Son). I don't judge you, but I am examining what you say. Jesus said His Words judge us. If we reject them...
Heresy is "party spirit" or sectarianism. I had been involved in Bible arguing for years. It is a sectarian position that "the Bible is the only rule for faith and practice". Sects have been dissecting it for centuries and it has not brought us any closer.
As for the deceiver that you mention, I have not met him. I have met Jesus. The way that I met Jesus was through faith in him being the living savior. Years later when my faith changed, this Jesus that I met was still the same. My conclusion is that God does not care that about the name you give or use for God. God is there. Can Christians find God entrenched in Christianity? Absolutely. Can Muslims find God entrenched in Islam? You answer that.
I am apostate in that I have walked away from a religion. I am not apostate in walking away from God. The relationship what I started as a Christian, is still same, less some doctrines and dogmas.
the blood of Jesus the Anointed One was shed for the redemption and healing of every person before the world began in the seed from which all was created(the blood is in the seed of the father). As Peter said of Him, Who was foreknown from the foundation of the world but is manifest in these last days for you.
The finished work of God is an administration suitable to the completion of time(Eph 1) that is continually "manifesting" "unfolding" until the consummation in which God will be all in all.
The blood has been shed for all and this is the "healing"(sorry, I despise the word salvation because it has become a bigger translation error than forever/aion or hell/sheol and is a BIG part of that whole mess imo) of the (sozo-translated salvation in some places, healing/deliverance in others) of the kosmos which was subjected to futility by the Creator "in hope"(ro 8)- which means with a distinct and immovable goal, because hope makes not ashamed because it rests upon the sure counsels of the one who causes all things to work according to the counsel of His will.
The scripture in Romans 2, in my opinion, means just what it says- some who have responded in ages past to the law of God expressed in the things He has made, having never heard any other law, will be justified before Him by the testimony of their deeds... "I was thirsty and you gave me to drink" While some who had knowledge AND law will not be justified, "Depart from me I never knew you" because knowing Him is NOT A GNOSTIC eXErcISE OF FuNDAMENTAL CHrISTIAN SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY- in my opinion.
The fundamentalist assumption that everyone has heard the gospel is true- but not like they preach it. It is rather because "you are without excuse o man when u judge another and do the same things yourself" and "His divine nature and eternal power have been manifest from the beginning through the things He has made" or, "The heavens declare Your handi-work and the firmament your glory'" "Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world."
IMO, The veils that blind men to the gospel/"good news" are mostly religious and often "Christian" today.
"You make the word of God of no effect by your traditions passed down from your fathers"
Even as the covenants of promise through Moses were made of no effect by the religion of the Hebrews.
The blood is applied by the Lord upon the heart that has received Him. Moses received Him before He knew His name, as He named Himself to Moses, "I AM THAT I AM" on the mountain.
Our Messiah is known in our language as Jesus but "HE IS WHO HE IS" in reality- knowing His "name" does not equate to knowing Him- at least not according to Him, "Didnt we prophesy in your name and do many mighty works in your name?"......"Depart from me.....I KNOW YOU NOT"
But He IS THE ONLY ANOINTED ONE, THE ONLY BEGOTTEN, THE UNIQUE SON and stands alone in history(Alpha though Omega) as the seed from which all came to be and into which all is returning-"For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things."
The gospel is, "the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ"
The veils are anything that obscure His true "face"(eternal power and divine nature, the Who in who He is, the What in I AM WHAT I AM) and this is where fundamentalist Christianity gets into big trouble.
They preach a false gospel because they do not know Him- they compound their "sin"(missing the mark) by PORTRAYING HIM FALSELY- AS THEY THINK THEY KNOW HIM, not as WHO HE IS, because they(generally) will not seek Him for WHO HE IS.
"If we walk in the light as He is in the light we have union and communion and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin"
So, the blood is applied by walking in the light- and Jesus is the fountainhead of that light- not Buddah or Allah or Vishnu - but we are NOT SUPPOSED TO JUDGE AND THREATEN those who follow these gods- we are to appeal to them as Paul did on Mars Hill, including himself among them, using the word "us" as he spoke to them about the divine nature and eternal power of God(circa Romans 2)- letting them know the blood is already there for them.
Jesus only threatened THE ONES WHO WERE WEARING RObeS AND FALSELY PorTRAYING HIM(the Father).
To those who were ignorant of the law of Moses or the gospel of Jesus, Paul introduced them to the LAW OF GOD MANIFEST IN THE CrEATION first, as a platform from which to introduce them to the One provided by the Creator to "set the whole creation free from futility into the glorious liberty of the sons of God"- of whom Jesus was the first AND THE ONLY BEGOTTEN- the rest were adopted sons springing out of the root of Jesse, the offspring of David, the second Adam ito which all thigs are being gathered into one and all things made new.
Act 17:24-28 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwells not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he give to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
I think it is right to declare that their is "No other name given under heaven by which a man may be healed than the name of Jesus" and that "Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father".
I think it is a mistake to assume that some who never heard that name on earth, but lived by the law of God written on their hearts(the light that lighteth everyone who comes into the world Jn 1) will not instantaneously bow their knee and confess with their tongue the glorious name of the one they served in their spirit in ignorance, when they gave a glass of water unto one of His little ones- their deeds testifying that in the secret place of their heart they knew Him-albeit perhaps not by name.
At the same time, I think many who had the "NAME" on their bumper and their building and the stage in their churches will not know what name to call Him by. But that is just my opinion of what the scriptures mean.
In my opinion God know the secrets of every heart and all will be revealed in the Day by the LIGHT, and all to the glory of Jesus Christ and God the Father(every knee shall bow, every tongue confess)- but the idea that "formulaic salvation" will merit a pass from the consuming fire/revealing light of whatever "aionian kolassis" is, just simply isnt scriptural to me.
The Day will reveal who knew Him and who didn't- we ought to just proclaim to all men everywhere that God has made a provision for their "healing and deliverance" through Jesus the Anointed One, Lord of all and Healer of all (by His stripes we are healed).
Quote from: ed on June 04, 2013, 02:11:19 AM
My conclusion is that God does not care that about the name you give or use for God. God is there. Can Muslims find God entrenched in Islam? You answer that.
ed, my guess is that we could struggle back and forth on many specific points for a long time, which we won't do.
I will say that God/Yehweh gave his name to His Son Jesus/Yesu, which as I understand in Hebrew means "Yehweh-Savior". He said "there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." He also said we must believe on Him, God's Son, and that He rose again.
-----
As has been discussed in the past and I think we've found much agreement on John, I believe there's an initial spiritual new birth - the free gift, the ekklesia now, all the rest later; "sirs, what must I do to be saved? Confess the Lord Jesus, believe God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved".
Then the salvation (or loss of) the self/soul, who we are, our attitudes, works, etc. the ongoing process of
being saved, i.e., the delivered, sanctified, overcoming, walking in the Spirit, living in the kingdom [righteousness, peace, and joy] part of it. Anything not of God will be burned [lost, destroyed, consumed in the Consuming Fire];
Thirdly, the salvation/redemption of our bodies on that Day - when mortality takes on immortality.
But IMO, unless one has the initial drawing and being given faith to believe unto salvation (spiritual new birth) anything else is secondary and every knee will still need to bow and confess Jesus. I do agree, though I'm not the judge and I don't know who, I believe many will immediately recognize Him as Savior when they're in His presence, while others will endure kolasis aonion. God knows who, when, and for how long.
Saved, being saved, will be saved. :2c:
Mark this, there is but ONE way that man will be saved, and that WAY is by and through Jesus Christ.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 04, 2013, 06:01:42 PM
Mark this, there is but ONE way that man will be saved, and that WAY is by and through Jesus Christ.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Amen! :thumbsup:
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 04, 2013, 06:01:42 PM
Mark this, there is but ONE way that man will be saved, and that WAY is by and through Jesus Christ.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Yep! It's Marked. And Matthewed, Luked, Johned, and Pauled. :dsunny:
"I Am The Way, The Truth, And The Life..."
"eimi hodos" ⇔ "I am the way"
"hodos" ⇔ "the way"
"hodos" ⇔
1. properly
(a) a way, a travelled way, road
(b) a travellers way, journey, travelling
2. metaph.
(a) a course of conduct
(b) a way (i.e. manner) of thinking, feeling, deciding
I believe that the Word has spoken - He has shown the Way but it's too simple for man - man must create his dogmas to obscure the Way for it calls out effort and sacrifice. He said to His disciples: "And whither I go ye know, and the Way ye know (perceive)"...because they had been with Him, watched Him, listened to Him, loved Him.
Personally, I follow the teachings of the Word made flesh rather than the words and opinions of men who sometimes disagree as to truth however inspired or not they may be, or the words of men literalising spiritual visions and parables and calling it truth - although I will listen but not necessarily accept such words as true to Divine Truth, they simply are not and will never be the same as Divine Truth Himself, in my opinion.
Christ Jesus showed the Way by being the Example for man to follow during His earthly sojourn. He also gave man perfect teachings: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death"
"emos logos" ⇔ "my saying"
"logos" ⇔ "saying"
* a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
* what someone has said
* a word
* the sayings of God
* decree, mandate or order
* of the moral precepts given by God
* what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism
* discourse
* the act of speaking, speech
* the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking
* a kind or style of speaking
* a continuous speaking discourse - instruction
* doctrine, teaching
* anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative
* matter under discussion, thing spoken of, matter in dispute
* the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed
"And whosoever liveth (zao - breathes, is active in, is living and acting in character, is full of vigour) and believeth (pisteuo - places confidence in, trusts) in me shall never (ou me - by no means in any manner) die. Believest thou this?"
I believe Thee.
I hope that I ask in humility that my Lord and Master Christ continually guides me to abide by His sayings and through His unlimited grace I believe that I shall never see death at the end of this short life that I may serve Him all through the Aeon of aeons - no long sleeping, no waiting until a day of so-called resurrection from a dusty grave, no living in a putrefying earthly body for eternity, no semi-dazy existence, no unnatural cessation of consciousness. No death ever, never - You have promised.
How wonderful and demonstgrative of Love as well as Divinely fair to all that His laws govern all beings in the same manner. Thank you for revealing Yourself Lord. I know He lives in me, He fills me with a form of life that is beyond description - and I strive to reciprocate to live in Him and as shallow in comparison as I am He never leaves, He is with you always. Death? Shall man's words alter Christ who never changes?
And through both His Way and also through His omnipresent Spirit which emanates from the Godhead, the Father is open to all - and all shall know the Christ in something of His Love and out of reverence, gratitude and adoration all shall truly bend the knee in spirit to Him.
Quote from: jbertonbounds on June 02, 2013, 05:37:33 PM
Quote from: ded2daworld on June 02, 2013, 05:02:41 PM
Ed said, "So you think it makes sense that God requires blood in order to forgive?"
No, I said that it was the way that God has chosen to deal with our sin.
God is Love, Love is sacrifice.
When you love someone, you make sacrifices for them. The ultimate sacrifice or "proof" of love
is a person giving up their life for someone else. How could we understand the truth about Love
and God without the example of pure love/pure sacrifice done for us? Ed also said that God transcends religion
which of course is true since God transcends everything but His infinite self. I was trying to put into perspective
that you said that You also (like God)had transcended religion. It must be nice. :Peace2:
Ded2, this is so beautiful! I am copying this and saving it. Thanks. :thumbsup:
I shall save this too, it brought tears to my eyes. :HeartThrob:
Thank you for all of the loving replies.
I am always impressed with the logic and tact that Christian Universalists bring to the table.
If I was a Christian, I would definitely be a univisalist.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: ed on June 05, 2013, 01:54:35 AM
Thank you for all of the loving replies.
I am always impressed with the logic and tact that Christian Universalists bring to the table.
If I was a Christian, I would definitely be a univisalist.
:thumbsup:
ed you don't have to be a "Christian" to inherit eternal life. If I had to fit into the mold that makes up 95% of Christendom I would have to believe all of the garbage that they believe and that ain't happening. I would rather not be associated with the title of "Christian" because of all of the negative press they get for being hypocrites and blind fools who follow bad doctrines. Just say no to labels!
QuoteThank you for all of the loving replies.
I am always impressed with the logic and tact that Christian Universalists bring to the table.
If I was a Christian, I would definitely be a univisalist.
Dear Ed,
I believe that you are correct in your thinking as you have laid it out here. Personally, if I may burden you with my own perspective, finding God through Christ is the reason that I love God. I simply cannot separate Almighty God and Christ although I can write words to make a distinction - but God is so powerful that they are One to my little heart and mind.
And so I learn of Christ and see God revealed. I have been elsewhere and seen others have their God revealed to them and that is fine with me, I make my feelings of my understanding of God known to them should it be approriate, but I have found the God revealed to me through Christ is real to me, all-powerful, all-wise, all-tender, all-protective yes, but I have Him in a Form that I can relate to, the visible Gateway (Christ Jesus) to the unseen God. He has come down and displayed Himself for me to see Him and what He is really like. He instructs me - His Spirit and His Love instructs me - as to how to interpret what I read and hear and it often varys from others. Others may disagree with me but I'm so overcome with what He has given me so why should I care?
Why do I write this? I'm not sure but I think a reason is that I get to focus on Him while relating my understanding of Him. From my experience (not words) God is so Wonderful and truly Beautiful, so unthinkable and so Divine, and to think of Him is a great way to spend a couple of hours. But yet God is inexplicable!
Tony.
I was sitting in a basement in the ghetto in Detroit Mich in 1974 . I had been searching for God, like some crazed treasure hunter, for 3 years. I had studied metaphysics, eastern mysticism and the hippie love halucinagenic music craze- but always I was looking for the deeper meaning- to which I awas never exposed as the child of totally materialistic parents.
I was about to be inducted into a coven in the heart of the outer darkness that was the inner city in Detroit in those days when suddenly it was like a bubble burst in my soul. The knowledge that Jesus had died on a cross for me, and was calling me to come follow Him sprang up like a well through every part, every cell of my being and I wept.
I wept because I saw my life and everything I loved go under that cross and I mourned the loss of it. I wept because I could not follow becuase there were things I loved too much to let go. I left that place knowing the truth without any doubt but I ran from God just the same.
I bought a bible tho and began to read. Over the next year I would read things like, "If your right hand causes you to offend cut it off for it is better to enter the kingdom of heven maimed than to enter whole into unquencable fire" and it was like a flaming arrow pierced my heart.
Finally one night I got on my knees and prayed, "Lord, I will stick my hand out if you will cut it off".
I wont bore anyone with the details but the next day my world changed and thereafter I was on the trail of the core streams of the reality of God in Christ. Again, Like a crzy treasure hunter I went from church to church looking for something that aproximated what I had read in the Book and I was tested and disappointed for years. I saw the glory of God continually dissapate before the relentless ambitions and presumptions of men (myself included)and despaired ever seeing what I was looking for.
For me, that first moment of revelation never left me.
"For He is the radiance of the Father's glory and the express image of theFathers nature"
I always knew that the foibles of men(including myself) culd not be laid at the feet of Jesus, who never did a soul wrong, but rather healed and delivered and became the sacrifice Lamb.
I understand losing faith in Christ, when the understanding has been defiled by the ways of men and the hopeleesness and futility of religion rises up and obscures the vision of who He really is and was.
The embodiment of love. The only begotten by a virgin daughter of Abraham, the friend of God- our Father the spirit our mother the earth. Jesus the only true avatar of God- the one actual INCARNATION thorough whom, as a seed- all things were created(Alpha)- through whom, as the Tree of Life(omega) all things will be gathered into one and through whom the living water will pour into the whole creation until every being in heaven, on earth, under the earth and in the sea will rejoice in the lgiht and color of absolutely universal joy and fulfillment in the new creation- a life as yet beyond mortal comprehension.
Ultimate universal reconciliation is the key to the door. The rosetta stone to all the diverse doctrines and the resolution of every paradox. It is THE ONLY WAY Jesus can be seen CLEARY for who He is and He is the "radiance of the Father's glory and the exact representation of His nature".
He said if you have seen me you have seen the Father. To know Him is to reach out and touch God. All theother shadows of God and all the pretend versions of "Christianity" are deficient for a multitude of reasons but the failure to understand why God has done the things He has done and the glory of His plan and the beauty of the Lamb's Joy for which endured such pain and rejection and insult by a world for which He was willing to lay down His life- The reconciliation of all, the salvation of all, and the restoration of all to something BEYOND what was lost in the beginning- ALL BY DESIGN. That is something I can never forget. It shines like the brightest star in the foggy mist of my feeble mind :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on June 10, 2013, 11:26:01 PM
I was sitting in a basement in the ghetto in Detroit Mich in 1974 . I had been searching for God, like some crazed treasure hunter, for 3 years. I had studied metaphysics, eastern mysticism and the hippie love halucinagenic music craze- but always I was looking for the deeper meaning- to which I awas never exposed as the child of totally materialistic parents.
I was about to be inducted into a coven in the heart of the outer darkness that was the inner city in Detroit in those days when suddenly it was like a bubble burst in my soul. The knowledge that Jesus had died on a cross for me, and was calling me to come follow Him sprang up like a well through every part, every cell of my being and I wept.
I wept because I saw my life and everything I loved go under that cross and I mourned the loss of it. I wept because I could not follow becuase there were things I loved too much to let go. I left that place knowing the truth without any doubt but I ran from God just the same.
I bought a bible tho and began to read. Over the next year I would read things like, "If your right hand causes you to offend cut it off for it is better to enter the kingdom of heven maimed than to enter whole into unquencable fire" and it was like a flaming arrow pierced my heart.
Finally one night I got on my knees and prayed, "Lord, I will stick my hand out if you will cut it off".
I wont bore anyone with the details but the next day my world changed and thereafter I was on the trail of the core streams of the reality of God in Christ. Again, Like a crzy treasure hunter I went from church to church looking for something that aproximated what I had read in the Book and I was tested and disappointed for years. I saw the glory of God continually dissapate before the relentless ambitions and presumptions of men (myself included)and despaired ever seeing what I was looking for.
For me, that first moment of revelation never left me.
"For He is the radiance of the Father's glory and the express image of theFathers nature"
I always knew that the foibles of men(including myself) culd not be laid at the feet of Jesus, who never did a soul wrong, but rather healed and delivered and became the sacrifice Lamb.
I understand losing faith in Christ, when the understanding has been defiled by the ways of men and the hopeleesness and futility of religion rises up and obscures the vision of who He really is and was.
The embodiment of love. The only begotten by a virgin daughter of Abraham, the friend of God- our Father the spirit our mother the earth. Jesus the only true avatar of God- the one actual INCARNATION thorough whom, as a seed- all things were created(Alpha)- through whom, as the Tree of Life(omega) all things will be gathered into one and through whom the living water will pour into the whole creation until every being in heaven, on earth, under the earth and in the sea will rejoice in the lgiht and color of absolutely universal joy and fulfillment in the new creation- a life as yet beyond mortal comprehension.
Ultimate universal reconciliation is the key to the door. The rosetta stone to all the diverse doctrines and the resolution of every paradox. It is THE ONLY WAY Jesus can be seen CLEARY for who He is and He is the "radiance of the Father's glory and the exact representation of His nature".
He said if you have seen me you have seen the Father. To know Him is to reach out and touch God. All theother shadows of God and all the pretend versions of "Christianity" are deficient for a multitude of reasons but the failure to understand why God has done the things He has done and the glory of His plan and the beauty of the Lamb's Joy for which endured such pain and rejection and insult by a world for which He was willing to lay down His life- The reconciliation of all, the salvation of all, and the restoration of all to something BEYOND what was lost in the beginning- ALL BY DESIGN. That is something I can never forget. It shines like the brightest star in the foggy mist of my feeble mind :o)
What an awesome, beautiful testimony!
Thanks for sharing this, Eagle! :thumbsup:
Bumping this so everyone can see eagle's post in case they missed it.
By the way, ed can be Ed the greater/older and I can be Ed the lesser/younger. Why only apostles should have these names? :icon_jokercolor:
Thank you,very timely!
I AM A CHRISTIAN.............
If you say...I am a jew,no-one will be moved...
if you say,I am Romn,no-one will be moved
if you sy,I am a Greek,a barbarian,a slave a free mn,no-one will be troubled.
IF you say,'I am Christian,the world will tremble"
Would that I may receive a name like that![no name higher]
This is the person whom the powers will not be able to endure,when they hear His Name"
Gospel of Phillip v 36
I don't know if Phillip really wrote those words, but they ring true to me :banana:
The cross is dramatic enough to pierce every psyche.. God may transcend religion, it seems obvious that man(kind) is imperfect, and needs to be made whole. To my way fo thinking God is Life and Perfection, but endowed thinking ability, thus the ability to make choices, yet to make any teeny tiny choice other than God would, is to become the imPerfect, the opposite of life.. therefor a rescue needed.
Ppl's understanding of the Bible is flawed, much ado is made, for instance on the judgments/consequences/results which occurred in the Old Testament, but they don't realize how brutal and barbaric mankiind had become, to the point human, child and babe sacrifice was practiced! Yet even to these, God confirms, only one sacrifice is/was needed (to redeem all man and angel kind, and all creation).
blessings! :cloud9:
Quote from: ed on June 02, 2013, 09:21:43 AM
So you think it makes sense that God requires blood in order to forgive?
Imo, it's not God who "requires" the sacrifice, but mankind's psyche does.. and the accusations of the opposer(s), who too are a part of "the plan" to educate us aLL.. plus Ded2daworld's summary about "love", and many other very good posts in this thread :smile:
I feel that I 'found' God through eastern religion/meditation, but it was a big struggle.. one again, off again.. if I was in the mountains.. God was there.. back to daily life, not so much.
Then someone gave me a New Testament :banana: :dsunny: then I heard the world's scoffing at the God of the Bible, but learned every claim lacked basis in fact.
What liberty when I realized it was "done" - no more struggling or even striving, but a resting.. a resting in the finished work.. and now I feel I have one rule/law, to love God. Period. For if I love God I will draw near in faith, and in the drawing near, be filled with Him, who is love and "love works no ill".. so by loving God/Yahweh, I will also love my fellow person.
to "not need the Bible" anymore, to me, is a very sad thing.. Oh how I love His Word, the words, and the whole narrative - of aLL learning good from evil.. something which must be understood for paradise to be instituted..
Quote from: jbertonbounds on June 04, 2013, 12:57:33 AM
I understand.
And I don't subscribe to that modern "outgrown" stuff either. I believe, yet without scripture to back it up, that those who never heard will not be dealt with harshly if they lived clean self-less lives - and I'm sure some of them do. Surely they (the "good" ones who never heard) will be purified in the most humane way of all at the judgement. However, I don't see how they would ever be able to be a part of the millennial kingdom either, since they never knew of Jesus. This remains a big question in my mind - kinda seems unfair. :dontknow:
It's my belief that no one, yep, no one, tho I like to say almost no one, to be in agreement with brethren about "age-during cleansing in the LOF", and of course there could be some few very stubborn hold outs... I believe what's called Judgment Day, and is the White Throne Judgment, will follow the 2nd resurrection / the resurrection of all who never believed or never even heard..
They will rise still in their imperfection, and will wtness, as we all will, and will live through what (surely?) must be a very long lasting review and examination of all things.. all human history. Why would Yahweh not use such an excellent opportunity to really hammer home what surely is His intent to teach and prove to aLL?
I read somewhere in the scriptures the other day, having to do with "name written in the book of life" (I believe) has to do with, in the original language, "making an entry". This seems obvious of course, but it struck me! I wrote that down somewhere.. oh, here it is Strong's Greek #3049 logizomai, root word
logos. And it had to do with the word "credited" in ROMANS 4:2-5 "faith credited as righteousness".
"Credited" - logizomai in the Bible version I was reading interpreted in the margin as meaning, to "make an entry". This of course brought to mind "names written in the book of life" and what does it require to have one's name written in the Book of Life? to believe (surely?), "faith"
credited.
If we look at REV 20, which has to do with 'judgment day' - "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the LOF" is the very last verse of the chapter. Even following "and death and
hell the grave/place of the dead, were thrown into the LOF".
It does say in chapter 19 that the
false prophet/teaching/imo,darwinianism, which turned christendom/western civilization on its ear, and
the (big)
beast of rev 13:1-10, imo,a world beast/body are "cast alive into the LOF" the paradox, or irony being they may be
active when they are seized, but they are not living beings..
My main point is, who, after experiencing being resurrected, and living through, and witnessing a long and intense review of allll human history, etc., who's not going to "believe"??
It may seem unfair some will miss the 1st resurrection (but will catch up to it!) but in any drama (God's Great Truth Drama) there has to be different characters. You can't have a drama with only one character (the saved in this life). :smile: