Hello,
I have this question for you, I hope you can help me. I am not understanding anymore how I can continue with BIBLICAL faith in Jesus. When I read the Old Testament, mainly the books of Moses but it's in the prophets too, then I encounter much war and bloodshed. Now I have been raised to utterly oppose every war as an evil against humanity, because so many people die in a war and because every human is something precious.
What I do understand is that the idea that a human is precious is also from the bible because it says that we have been made in God's image. But when I read the bible narratives it's like a human counts nothing. But war is the most horrible thing that can happen to a country, it destroys its life, health, wealth and brings the people on the knees in tears. And afterwards it's not better either because so many lives have been lost.
We only live around 70 years apart from the last world war, and it's like not everyone understands that. Also, Jesus said, who takes up the sword shall perish by it. This makes me fear for the US and for France and England who took up arms against Syria recently for the terrorist attacks. I understand that the governments perhaps have no choice but I am so unsure.
Also, about God, I have sinned against him too. Some people say that believing in UR is a sin. I am so depressed about this, and afraid that God would never really help me up. I wish I could still read my bible and find peace and light and bread to eat. But it's become hard because my faith has been shaken. For example, I can't believe in Noah's Flood anymore because there is so much evidence against it. This should be fine because it means one less thing to worry about, that God might destroy the world seems unlikely now.
But I am afraid that I can't do much without the bible. I need something to base my beliefs on, a foundation so to speak. But I don't seem to have one. I really feel lost today.
I hope some of you have a good idea. God bless you!
Daniel
Hi Daniel,May Father give you comfort and peace in this..even in the midst of the wars and desolations. Please rest in the sure hope
that the Prince of Peace will accomplish the will of the Father.
when the first Adam partook of the TOKOGAE and 'sin' entered...enmity between good and evil...the seed of the woman and the seed of
the serpent. this warring/enmity...all men battle..within themselves/villages/nations,brother's,sister's..etc.
As far as it depends upon you...be peaceful with all men. Jesus come as a messenger of peace...between God and all men....
but even He was 'hated' without cause. Cain and Abel manifest this enmity between brother's.Abel had nothing in his heart against his
brother,or his sacrifice would not have been acceptable to God.
How good it is for brother's to dwell togather in unity.........what an evil it is for brother's to kill one another.
Daniel said 'wars and desolations would continue until the end' Jesus [Matthew 24,25] said we would hear of wars and rumours of wars
......it's just a fact..a reality of the way it is...the Prince of this world is wicked..andhis works are wicked......
But..we look forward to a new world,new heavens that will never end. As much as it grieves your heart and spirit..for the
way things are now....keep enduring in the hope/expectation that we await. Though we all be groaning within ourselves......
our liberty and freedom and deliverance draws near.
Daniel, you are certainly keeping it real.
I appreciate Sheila's response but it doesn't seem to me to address your point of the incongruity of God bringing war and destruction and disunity.
I would suggest two related points publicly for your consideration and may offer a third in private:
1. Perhaps judgment is really, really bad and awful, "hellish" even. Perhaps it involves suffering and the loss of everything to bring us to a place of reconciliation and wholeness. And perhaps God's destruction in the OT can just be looked at as an instrument of that in the life of those he was so violent against.
2. Perhaps our scale is not at all God's scale. He knows the end and the beginning. So what seems so tragic and gigantic and awful to us because it is all we know in our physical body and limited lifespan is really just some of the pains of childbirth for us to enter Life with a capital L. The pains of childbirth for the enemies of Israel and God in the OT were death and destruction. But that is just the beginning of their story.
And now if I could offer some unsolicited words of encouragement. I'm praying for your peace and God's voice in your life. Remember, today you are only responsible to Him TODAY. Surrender to Him, He is trustworthy. Choose to believe the very best about Him because He is good, even if you don't understand all His ways. Listen for His voice Today.
Hi Steve,
thanks for the post but it did not help me. I cannot trust a God who creates war to punish people. War is terrible, you have no idea of it I guess. My dad and some other family members of mine were involved in world war 2 and they suffered for years because of it. My dad actually became an atheist because of the war things that he experienced as a kid. He could never feel at home in God and church life again. It all felt bogus to him. Cheating. That is why I want to develop a theology according to which all wars were caused by men and that God only wants to end them but needs our cooperation to be able to do so. After all we never hear wars being stopped by stony hail or something like that.
Also, judgment if it is to be just needs to find the guilty and not the innocent. And war lumps the guilty and the innocent together. That is why I cannot believe that God engineers wars, it is too crude of an instrument.
I also have a biblical reason to believe this. Have you heard of the theology of preterism according to which most of the biblical prophecies, including those in the New Testament, have already been fulfilled? According to this, Jesus came and tried to save Israel. He gave the Sermon of the Mount as instructions for Israel about how to behave towards the Romans. It was God's will that the Romans would rule Judea and Judea was to humbly comply and also to show to the Romans that they were harmless people. But after Jesus death the zealots gained more and more power and influence until they finally made a big rebellion. And the Romans responded to that with Jerusalem's destruction. God did not want that, because we must see God in the crucified Savior. But neither could he do something against it because Judea was disobeying his advice. The scriptures sometimes say that God has wrath, but really what God feels is compassion and sympathy, he just cannot override man's share in life, the freedoms man can use for both good and evil. If God were to override these freedoms providentially all the time, man could do nothing to be proud of a little, to have special joys of accomplishment in them.
I think this was so all the time. God is wanting to meet us in love and kindness and faith, but when we make mistakes he cannot always correct them for us. We reap what we sow.
[Mod edit, portion removed - outright textual criticism (actual, direct, minimization, denial) of the trustworthiness of the scriptures is not allowed on TM. Our understandings are within the scriptures, accurately translated, Spirit-revealed. Thanks.]
Blessings!
Oh dear.. anti_nietzsche.. I remember only too well what such a time feels like.. We are taught there's lots of evidence against the flood, but is there really? I would love to go into all the proofs against man's theory of evolution, but that's quite a long post - www.answersingenesis.org is one of the best websites however.. There's plenty of scientists who do not believe the current (silly) theory.
Of course the Bible says the flood was because the thoughts of every one was continually evil.. and oh may if we had all been descended from them.. Of course humanity very likely would have destroyed itself long ago. After all there was the whole nephilim thing (interbreeding with demons, all but Noah's family was touched by it, I believe it says.
I think despair like this happens to us because we think and expect that God would and should be in control of all things. Something which turned all that around for me was more than 17 years ago, my son asked me two questions which I wasn't happy with my answers! So I prayed for better answers.
The questions he asked were - "why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden?" and "isn't it great, we get to be an ant farm?" (Oiye so cynical..)
The answers came back to me sort of like "bam.." ..bam and bam.. And I have to tell you, my socks were knocked off and they've been knocked off ever since.
I haven't written about it for a while, but this is what I learned and am now convinced of..
God is life, itself, the life force, breath and spark of life, who, or what else could be? "In the beginning - God." And He is also Perfection. Otherwise, He Himself would also fade as all other things do.
About the human story/experience, mankind as a whole: He could see all things from the beginning.. the end(s) of every possibility. (He knew how every possibility would end and result.) He has done all things in order to bring about the very best thing/reality possible. One thing He did was He chose to endow thinking ability. Now this is a real Pandora's Box, for with thinking ability, comes, sooner or later, the ability to make choices. (Even if currently they are so very limited.) Yet, if God is Life and Perfection, as soon as someone chooses any little thing other than what God chooses, they begin that journey away from Perfection. (Which is the opposite of life!) When He endowed thinking ability to angel and man, a whole new world (or tree) of possibilites 'came to be'. (But what was His other choice? No rational creatures ever anywhere..?)
Ever since then, all have suffered, some horribly. But God, being life, lives through, suffers and experiences aLL sufferings which ever occur. Why(?) would He put Himself through all that?! Because He's not making robots, or an ant farm, but the best, a family, and an eternally un-breakable paradise. Unbreakable, because deeply etched upon every heart, mind, and psyche, will be the full understanding of good from evil / life from death. (Life from death.)
This whole thing, human history, is an unavoidable journey/lesson, if there's to be thinking ability that is.
The whole thing ended with a question (to me, it seemed). Why did God wait so long before creating the universe and man and woman, only creating them not only after the first bound-to-occur rebel thought occurred, but had matured into hidden trickery and sedition? Didn't He know what would happen? Of course He did! (And I say waited long, because surely when there was 'only' the Father (His Spirit/Presence) the Son and the angels, surely there wasn't all that much to go astray about... so likely took a while (is what seems likely to me). He did it just that way so we all would take this unavoidable journey/lesson together.. rather than one now.. another later.. and so on.. and so on.. virtually taking for ever..
If God interfered with the ability to choose, it wouldn't work! The 'end' result would not be the same.
Take care! Gotta run.. hubby needs his supper.. :smile:
Marie glen,
What a profound truth to be given by the Holy Spirit! I have read your thoughts on this elsewhere in tentmaker but you explain it so well here that I got chills. It really puts everything into perspective!
Thanks for sharing again!
yes very good MG. :dsunny:
We learn from mistakes.
We are being shown that wars resolve nothing, merely give victory to the dominant one.
Love resolves everything.
Paul said in 1 Cor 15;19 " If our hope in Christ is for this life only, then we, of all men, are to be pitied most."
We were created to be sons/daughter of the living God.
We are to learn right from wrong, good from evil.
The resurrection teaches us from God's perspective.
You, Daniel, are seeing that and asking questions.
May our Father grant you insight to the big picture without all the bondage of mankind's definitions of God's work.
Hi Marie Glen,
I am not convinced that Noah's Flood really happened. And the nephilim thing is written so strangely. Sons of God can also be religious men and that the religions before the Noah incident were very evil and did that evil in the name of God. I think the bible is written in code about these things. On the surface it is harsh and uncompromising, but if you apply spiritual interpretation there is another story, that of the poor and faithful people that God leads into freedom. I don't think there was a real Exodus and Sinai and Moses coming down in glory, etc. Paul says this is all law and to be abandoned and that this law is only the power of sin. We should not live with this fear and with the weak powers that govern us then. It is only causing anger.
Instead we must go by the law of freedom. And in this freedom it is easy to see how the law of Moses is largely wrong in its literal reading and that we must apply metaphorical, allegorical, spiritual and christological understanding when reading this ancient book of religious discourse. But first free yourself from it so you can really see God in a glory of love and peace.
Hi, anti-nietzche!
I agree we have to be set free in order to "see God in a glory of love and peace". :cloud9: :HeartThrob:
I think this most likely happens when by His grace, we begin to understand His purpose and intent and can see a bit of his blueprint.
The Law, Paul wrote, was a tutor.. a babysitter, for the 'flesh', for the not yet born..
It's a serious matter this lesson YHWH is teaching.
Ps 118:27 - "God is the Lord, which hath shewed us light: bind the sacrifice with cords" - Jesus! - "even unto the horns of the altar."
I can't help but think the truth He is writing on every heart and mind, is an important and dramatic truth. One which we cannot break but merely break ourselves upon it.
And thus all would perish if not for Him and His perfect work of salvation.. and His infinite mercy, kindness, and love. Jesus became that broken one. And we shouldn't think for a moment that YHWH the Father was not in Him experiencing those same agonies.. For He is life and is everywhere present (and conscious!)
The opposite of God - which is, after all, where all is leading and where all would naturally flow to and into, and become - is predatorness. The opposite of God is vicious. And history proves it. If we think anything but experience would convince one 'soul' of God's 100% rightness in all things, we deceive ourselves I think..
I believe the Bible is literal. I've researched and studied the issues people have with the Bible.. and they are wisps of vapor. Oh let me stand on that Rock.. For all else is shifting sand.. (especially, one's own thoughts.)
We, are the creature. And ever need to be yield, yielding everything to Him.. down to the floorboards of our being. ...and then we need to start pulling up floor boards..
The pit of opposite-to-God-ness is bottomless, this I believe is part of the lesson that must, simply must be learned. Rev 9:3 And there's only the two ways ("set before you is life and nonlife..")
We need to find our place in God and keep it. The world is not going to become more pleasant. And He is the only trusted shelter. (And there are lots of distractions.)
We all, I believe, have had or will have our doubts, even anger.. maybe even shaking our fists at heaven ("her sins reach to heaven"..) I think the most important part (our part) that we can do, (besides "believing" :smile: ) is to be quiet, and listening.. toward God. And feeding on the loaf of the New Testament! (imo) These being our daily bread and wine, the sustenance we absolutely need.
..I think we all need the shield of faith/trust. I think we need that armor.. :2c:
:Peace2: :smile: God bless! Have a great day/evening (?) over there in Germany! It's cold, wet and grey here today.. But we had a sunny, warm weekend! :)
Great responses in this thread! Sheila, Ross, SteveW! ..awesome!
I'm on :cloud9: from each one.. so glad I read this thread.. :ty:
Hello Marie,
thank you for your words. I know you believe in God and in his son Jesus, and so do I. I am back at him every 5 minutes or so, there is not much time when I am not aware of him.
But the bible is a book that I think is different from what you present here. It is not to be taken literally, because if we do we must kill and have no mercy, even to babies. And that can never be with a God of love, or we only prove to have a hard heart. When God announced some of the wars of the OT, he did so because certain pagans were sacrificing children to idols. And such wars were just and fair, like our modern efforts against terrorism and the pseudo-islam of hatred against us. But there also have been other wars in the biblical text, and these were not always warranted. Think of David and his son Solomo, God actually forbade David to build a temple for him because he had blood on his hands. Bloodshed is never desired by God, make this a firm one in your mind. Not every war has been as necessary as the war against Germany in ww2.
Also, the way Paul interpreted the law, he used it only for showing something about Jesus Christ, he did not apply the jewish understanding of it anymore and called for letting it go. Instead we are under a law of freedom now and must use our own heads again to know right from wrong and can only view the law critically. Let me tell you, I come from an atheistic family and have only become a believer when I was already an adult and through difficult circumstances. But still I knew right from wrong, in my conscience I was as moral as anyone else even though I did some sins. Under the law of Moses I would be dead by now because I am transgendered (although I don't transition because my transsexuality is rather weak compared to the one of others). But with Jesus I have peace and love and salvation for me.
Now we must find ways to express the same peace, love and salvation to other people. If you read Paul's words about sin, you can find lists of wrongdoing there that really do not apply to all people, and Paul himself admits this in the book of Romans. Instead he says the sins are present among the jews and the roman nobility, but not everyone. There is where we must be righteous and just and not accuse people of sin that they have not committed.
There is a point where the sin accusation becomes a variant of making people's lives miserable. Think of what Muslims must endure who do not have Christ as their Savior who sticks with them until the end of the world.
Blessings,
Daniel
listen..all the things your'e stumbling over...was the old law covenant....which is referred to the death covenant. It was given
to show us what sin was. condemn sin in flesh of all men....and to lead us to Jesus Christ[ the NEW BETTER COVENANT]
the reconciliation and forgiveness of God and the promise to deliver all of us from all sin and it's effects.
All our imperfections shall be remedied....whether it be gender confusion/dysphoria,selfishness,greed,lust,blindness,deafness
cleptomaniacs,mental,emotion,physical and spiritual disorder's.
His covenant speaks of BETTER/PERFECT things to come. There is no reason why any person..no matter what state of imperfection
they are in..should not look towards Him in hope/trust faith.......HE WILL HEAL US ALL...HE LOVES US ALL.....
with sin and imperfection let loose on the earth...there will be all kinds of rotten evil fruitage in this earth..........that will
have to be =ENDURED...enduring is not pleasant/nor persecution..it is greivous...and makes the whole creation GROAN.......
I HEAR your groans...I groan,too..... :HeartThrob:
Hi Sheila,
thanks for your post, and you are right about the law things. They are useful to testify to us about Christ, but as they are only dealing death we cannot take them as lifeguides anymore, and have the New Covenant for that.
I wish I did not have schizophrenia, it is always making me loose my mind. So often did I see faces in my mind, distorted and speaking evil. It's like demons but my doctor says it is a sickness. I get medicine but I don't get well with them. I always think I must find spiritual healing and once Christ spoke like that to me, but it doesn't seem to matter how much I pray, it does not get so much better.
Blessings for speaking kindly to me, all of you!
my daughter and grand daughter are severe bipolar. I myself have dealt with severe despression in the past. Sometimes still..if
I watch to much news or youtube stuff about what is going on in the world....it gets me so bad. I then 'hole up" and don't read
those things...I just have to..because my chest/heart physically aches and I cry. I cry for all the pain and suffering for the whole
creation..the animal's the people. Used to be...all we had to deal with was what was our neighbor's problems..we could help them...
and if everyone would do what they could in their local area...they could help get through it.
But now,with the media...there is much knowledge of what takes place over the whole earth...and with this increased knowledge
increased sorrow and heartbreak.
so...I have to shut down at times. :friendstu:
G'day;
Greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world.
The shield of faith is the shield of protection that Christ did not fail to save you- His faith sets us free.
The helmet of salvation is KNOWING that you are saved.
The breastplate of righteousness is that Christ has made us righteous in God's eyes.
These lessons you are learning are emphasizing the need for Christ- YOU ARE A CHILD OF GOD IN CHRIST JESUS.
Children learn from their mistakes when the Father points them out.
Learning is a continual process.
The things to come are amazing so the lessons need to be intense.
Both of you are being shown that sort of info in a personal specific way. Your development must be for the job you will have in the ages to come.
Paul says the things seen of this age are temporary, the things not seen are eternal.
He also says not to rely on the wisdom of man- they compare themselves with themselves- amazing how many preachers are doing that very thing.
He also states that nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus.
All awesome.
Well my problem might I think too much of the salvation of all. If you think of muslims or some kinds of atheists they are so resistant to the things of Jesus Christ. I relate to this from my atheist path, but at some point I also get upset about it. Why do they refuse God? Why do they force the problems on us to know whether they can get saved or not? I think they do get saved, but on Earth they basically decide for a free ride and care for nothing spiritual. That's what triggers me sometimes. I am also upset about my atheistic father, who, although a friendly man, died without putting faith in Jesus except maybe if he had a secret faith life, what I do not know. He refused to let me pray for him, for example. I wish I knew what became of him after he died. I hope God had mercy on him and let him into the kingdom. I miss him and his friendly face and manners. He was strong sometimes and helped my mother much and me too. He was not evil, but he was so damn persuaded of atheism.
Honestly I think it is hard to trust and believe in someone who we can't see, smell or touch besides that this person states he is all powerful and loving being yet millions and billions of people are dying and suffering everyday. Humanity cannot reconcile these two things. If God really want them believe he has the power to do so nothing in existence can stop him.
The question is not why do people not believe but why God has not brought him or her to believe.
Wars in the Bible.. It's a book of history..
All the answers to all the questions are in His Word.. Namely, the four gospels, the letters and the book of revelation. Revelation, for instance says all will be resurrected. Now if all are to be resurrected, yet some were to be lost.. why resurrect them? Why not just mercifully let them remain asleep in death? Is it logical (logic to me is #2 truth source) - is it logical to raise all who died still in their sins (not forgiven/reconciled) just to say nahnahnanana! you could've lived forever in a perfect paradise, but too bad. Or worse yet, happy awakening, now you will be tortured for eternity.
:doh: (in all politeness, puhlease)
We don't live outside any more. Don't gaze up into the starry heavens each night. We're more connected to man's inventions and world, and have been taught what other men think. Most of it, if not all, is smoke and mirrors with a little insanity thrown in. Certainly not much logic.
I can't help thinking God had two choices. Basically. Endow thinking ability. Or don't. No rational creatures ever.
Ever wondered why He scattered the tribes of mankind at the building of Babel Tower? They talked about it, Father and Son (Genesis chap 9). "Look what they do.. Soon nothing will be impossible for them.. Let us go down and confuse the languages that they will leave off this building of the tower.."
"Look what they can do.. all working together.. why soon, in no time at all, they are sure to split the atom or something and cabluey.. (Little running away of the imagination there, sorry :laughing7: ) And what would ever be learned by that? and just think of all those people who could've been born and now they won't."
I think before God ever did any work of creating, He could see all possibilities spread out before His sight.. And I can't help but think He has done each and every thing which He has done, in such a way so as to bring about the very best of all possibilities / 'end' results.
I really think He had two options. Endow thinking ability (which sooner or later, includes the ability to make choices) or no rational creatures. Ever. Maybe just planets and animals, flowers, stars and very little children.. Wee children who could never really think and rationalize, etc..
"A cynic is a disillusioned idealist."
I like to ask a cynic or one who is bitter, 'how would you do it? If you were God?'
All complicated stuff- yet with absolute purpose.
By definition; wisdom comes from experience.
Romans 11;32-36 " For God has consigned ALL to disobedience SO THAT HE MAY SHOW MERCY TO ALL.
Oh, the depths of the riches, wisdom, and knowledge of God.
How unsearchable are His judgments, and how inscrutable His ways!
For who has known the mind of God? Or who has been His counsellor? Or who has given to God so that God has to repay him?
For from Him, and through Him, and to Him are ALL things.
To Him be the glory for all time. Amen!!!"
My parents, brothers and sister, wife, kids, do not yet agree about all being saved.
I personally have no fear or dread for what will happen to them because of the assurance that all will be saved, BUT EACH IN HIS OWN TURN.
Then the talk about the second death, to me, resolves what will happen for those who are resurrected without the knowledge of the plan of life. They will be resurrected in a physical body; be taught about life and Christ's sacrifice for them; then die the second death to receive the new spiritual eternal body. Otherwise how would they learn to appreciate what Christ did for humanity to make us all literally sons/daughter of the living God?
Dear Daneil ,
I do love what everyone here has shared so profoundly to you .... :HeartThrob:
Why are we here and why in the world would God put us though all this madness and violence and evil to prove His point ?
My hubs has the exact same question as to why ? Why God why ? being subject to all this fruitality and LOSS ! Powerless over all the elements , principalities
in HIGH places , one feels like a sitting duck and death is on every side and every possible way imaginable , all the suffering and pain and such misery !
For me it has become clear , it is a matter of how we think , the above thoughts or below thoughts , and the great DIVISION [GULF FIXED] between the two atmospheres /realms of thoughts that carry us or toss us around like rag dolls , harming and tearing us apart , not only are we divided among one another we are also divided within ourselves !!! How mad is that ?!
God made in the beginning in Gen 1 a great division of night and day with Light and darkness . for me the Light is Jesus Christ that always was is and will be , the Light of God is Jesus Christ being the knowledge of God and wisdom of HIM and HIS WILL , the darkness is the ignorance of the ways of God that was never to know ....
and the warring between the two places in our hearts being that futility ... WE KNOW ALREADY THE LIGHT OVERCOMES ALL DARKNESS IN THE END .
But in the mean time , we have this small measure of faith given to all mankind to use ,'' this small power of '', compared to less as a mustard seed of faith is to increase by the grace of God to become a great power of Light and Life though Jesus Christ , as we learn to lean on JESUS and keep our eyes '' thoughts and
prayers upon Him to finish what He started in us , it is by the LOVE OF GOD for all His creation [COL 1 ] will this all come to pass
As we wait on the Lord whom is the master of death and Life working in us all ...
Gen 1:14
ΒΆ
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
" WE KNOW ALREADY THE LIGHT OVERCOMES ALL DARKNESS IN THE END ."
Amen!
Indeed GREATER is He THAT IS YOU than he that is in the world.
We ate of the tree of knowledge between good and evil; in the resurrection we eat of the tree of life which was tucked out of access in Eden , but we now have since Christ gave us that access. After all He is the only way to life.
In Christ we grow in grace and knowledge.