High as experiencing God?

[MusicLover123]

Greetings!

As I was perusing through http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/why-did-god-make-drugs/ I found an interesting proposition that I feel was responded to inadequately:
"Is the feeling of getting high a way to experience God?"

Sounds a bit weird, but it still intrigues me. Do you think, that, when we do certain actions, (I would like to keep this kid friendly, people! :laughing7:) when it releases dopamine and other chemicals, that the good feelings you would receive is feelings we will get when we finally see Him in our glorified selves?

Of course, this question assumes a bunch of things. For example "Would every herb have been given to us, just to use for something more than good feelings?"

I do not do any drugs or drinking myself either. I feel that would bear against my conscience and regard it as sin, and that is just not something I would disobey God for. I hope to have a good conscience in all things, as Hebrews 13:18 notes.

Another question... How would you explain the images that these users see, in the usage and consumption of these drugs. For example, mushrooms? I have not really researched into the experiences that these people testify about, have no desire to, really. There seems to be a great amount of "spiritual experiences" among these users. Whether or not they lie, I do not know.

But, in regards to others...

What are your thoughts?

Blessings :thumbsup:

ML

[jabcat]

I can only offer an opinion with a few scriptural references.

Be not drunk with wine, but be filled with the Holy Spirit.  Be sober, be diligent..give no place to the devil/give no place to the flesh.

Pain relief, disease/disorder relief, physical/psychological improvement - within reasonable boundaries of sobriety and due diligence, never giving any place to loss of control or an opportunity for satan to enter/use an addled mind - possibly acceptable, always only as approved by the Holy Spirit within.  Personally, I don't believe any of those conditions allow for "using it as a way to experience God".  So generally, I'd say no.

[WhiteWings]

Recently I've read something about how you can know if God or satan is speaking to you(r mind).
The answer is something like: Think about the longer term effect. Doe sit move you closer to God?

Drugs are very often a downward spiral. They often lead to stealing to finance the next high. God doesn't like theft so drugs move you away from God.
Alcohol (and drugs) wreck your body. God wants health for you. So that's moving away from God too.

What people experience during a high I don't really know. But from outward appearances I must conclude they aren't able to process anything serious. Some pass out. Some look like zombies. Some get loud like a 3 year old in the playground. My guess is their ability to process information is at the same level.

The Bible doesn't forbid alcohol. But being drunk is different. It's like the Bible doesn't forbid food but gluttony isn't one of God's ideals.....


So, the long term effects seem to be negative.
The Godly teachings during the high seem to be none existent.
People act stupid/illegal when high. Think about a drunk driver killing someone.

So what do you conclude......?  :laugh:

[jugghead]

I have no idea if people can experience God under the influence of drugs, alcohol or anything else, but I do believe "with God all things are possible"

About the only thing I can say on the matter is that both God and these things do have one thing in common ..... "they all influence behavior"

It is what I have come to understand about the difference between water and wine with Christ's first miracle ..... water can sustain life with no influence in your behavior, but wine (like God's Spirit) can influence behavior in your life

my  :2c:

[rosered]

  :thumbsup:


The new wine  is the blood of Jesus shed  for sin,   covering it all , once for all time ,  by Gods gift of grace  , [Always present ]

His flesh  opened heaven  for all , this would be the only high  worth having and experiencing  in my opinion ,

One that never lets you down , but  as He is lifted up  He is drawing all  mankind with Him    ,

We praise God and Lift up His  Holy name  in the earth as it is in heaven .. :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

[MusicLover123]

Hey WhiteWings! So, you finally mustered enough confidence to comment on a question of mine! Congrats!

It's great to see your spamming posting throughout the years. What I have read of you so far, you seem to be very knowledgeable in these areas. I am impressed how much you have grown and became wiser from the early Tentmaker days.

Now, enough of that tangent. I'll address some of your points.

Recently I've read something about how you can know if God or satan is speaking to you(r mind).
The answer is something like: Think about the longer term effect. Doe sit move you closer to God?

Well, for me personally, drugs and drinking would move me away from God. I feel it would please my flesh, my carnal self, the "Adam in me" from an old post on this issue. I have no problems with others engaging with alcohol, but I feel I would lose control of myself, even with just a tad bit of it. I have also seen how damaging drugs can be to an individual, how it brings you away from relationship with others and makes it to where only others are purposed to bring self pleasure, and not loving them...

Drugs are very often a downward spiral. They often lead to stealing to finance the next high. God doesn't like theft so drugs move you away from God.
Alcohol (and drugs) wreck your body. God wants health for you. So that's moving away from God too.

Right. I have seen that downward spiral escalate from someone I know of. It is not the most pleasant experience to be a passerby of. This is especially true if there is next to nothing you can act upon, to change their life for the better. I find it interesting, though. What if, as it was proposed by a user on an old thread here, that in that "high" that it edify's their relationship with God?

The Bible doesn't forbid alcohol. But being drunk is different. It's like the Bible doesn't forbid food but gluttony isn't one of God's ideals.....

I am aware that alcohol is not off limits, only drunkenness is. I should have made that point clear in OP. It seems to me, in a Biblical sense, that in most areas(maybe Prayer is an exception, as how can you pray too much? Maybe idolize it...?) moderation is a key skill to learn. As exemplified beforehand, take water as an example. Basically the crux for all life, but too much can kill you, and so can too little. Same as you mentioned, with food. It has the same effects.

Just another tangent, here. It is not that there are a certain list of rules that we have to follow(Eg. the Law.) Remember, the law is fulfilled with Christ. We are called to do certain actions. But, not out of fear, but out of love. As perfect love casts out fear, love also illuminates darkness. We also fulfill the Law, by loving our neighbor as ourselves. We strive to be like God, not out of fearing Him, but out of Loving Him...

So, the long term effects seem to be negative.
The Godly teachings during the high seem to be none existent.
People act stupid/illegal when high. Think about a drunk driver killing someone.

Exactly, just as I lamented on just above. What do you think, though, that these people see in these instances. Demonic visions? Even a lucky guess would be helpful.

So what do you conclude......?  :laugh:

Same as you bro! That they need a lot more ice cream in their lives!  :winkgrin:

[MusicLover123]

I can only offer an opinion with a few scriptural references.

Be not drunk with wine, but be filled with the Holy Spirit.  Be sober, be diligent..give no place to the devil/give no place to the flesh.

Pain relief, disease/disorder relief, physical/psychological improvement - within reasonable boundaries of sobriety and due diligence, never giving any place to loss of control or an opportunity for satan to enter/use an addled mind - possibly acceptable, always only as approved by the Holy Spirit within.  Personally, I don't believe any of those conditions allow for "using it as a way to experience God".  So generally, I'd say no.

:thumbsup:

But, one question. You say that in general, that you would say no. But how would you address those specific cases? What if a believer were to engage with, say weed, and it strengthened their relationship with God? If the Holy Spirit gave them revelations they normally would not notice?

I have no idea if people can experience God under the influence of drugs, alcohol or anything else, but I do believe "with God all things are possible"

About the only thing I can say on the matter is that both God and these things do have one thing in common ..... "they all influence behavior"

It is what I have come to understand about the difference between water and wine with Christ's first miracle ..... water can sustain life with no influence in your behavior, but wine (like God's Spirit) can influence behavior in your life

my  :2c:

Good thoughts, there.

I guess it would come to this... Who do you serve? Sin or Christ? Death or Life? You cannot serve two masters, or else your foundation will fall. If your foundation is God, then you are truly free. Free to do what? Freedom to love one another. I think Freedom should be understood, not in a quantitative sense, but in a qualitative sense. Not how much choices can you make, but how much freedom you give to another...

This is me without Christ... :bottlebump:

This is me with him... :drummer: :violin: :angelharp:

:thumbsup:


The new wine  is the blood of Jesus shed  for sin,   covering it all , once for all time ,  by Gods gift of grace  , [Always present ]

His flesh  opened heaven  for all , this would be the only high  worth having and experiencing  in my opinion ,

One that never lets you down , but  as He is lifted up  He is drawing all  mankind with Him    ,

We praise God and Lift up His  Holy name  in the earth as it is in heaven .. :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

:thumbsup:

God Bless!  :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

[WhiteWings]

Hey WhiteWings! So, you finally mustered enough confidence to comment on a question of mine! Congrats!

What can I say, I love music. But you know that if you have read my first few posts  :laugh:

Just another tangent, here. It is not that there are a certain list of rules that we have to follow(Eg. the Law.) Remember, the law is fulfilled with Christ. We are called to do certain actions. But, not out of fear, but out of love. As perfect love casts out fear, love also illuminates darkness. We also fulfill the Law, by loving our neighbor as ourselves. We strive to be like God, not out of fearing Him, but out of Loving Him...

That's some sort of chicken and egg question that being discussed  in several Saved by faith alone threads.

Right. I have seen that downward spiral escalate from someone I know of. It is not the most pleasant experience to be a passerby of. This is especially true if there is next to nothing you can act upon, to change their life for the better. I find it interesting, though. What if, as it was proposed by a user on an old thread here, that in that "high" that it edify's their relationship with God?

So, the long term effects seem to be negative.
The Godly teachings during the high seem to be none existent.
People act stupid/illegal when high. Think about a drunk driver killing someone.

Exactly, just as I lamented on just above. What do you think, though, that these people see in these instances. Demonic visions? Even a lucky guess would be helpful.

Well, if you read how people found God, it's not always that they were searching for Him (me), some people found Him in jail. Or when doing stupid things.
I think if God wishes He can and will teach even the most high person on the planet.
He can, and possibly/likely did.
But that's no proof He actually is pleased by it.

How many people on deathrow found God? Let's say a million. Does that mean that crimes deserving death are ways God prefers?
I think not.

I think drugs are of satan. They a satan's tool of destruction. They are satan's tool of stealing people from God.
But sometimes God decides to annoy satan and steps in his playground.

Rememeber that satan can appear as an angel of light. For me that means he looks good and kind. He speaks 95% good things like helping people. But the real deal is the 5% poison/leaven he injects. And while 95% is good stuff, the 5% is lethal.

I wouldn't be suprised Satan invented the whole drugs lead to God story.

So what do you conclude......?  :laugh:

Same as you bro! That they need a lot more ice cream in their lives!  :winkgrin:[/quote]I can recommend vanilla with brown sugar, honey and Amaretto.

[Dandelion]

We are told that our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit. I, personally, do not advocate the use of drugs, to find God.

We know that drugs can be dangerous to our health, could possibly cause our death, or cause us to somehow injure others.

However, I do not believe that God is not able to take, what is potentially a bad situation, and use it for good.

We see examples of this, all through the Bible.  God can and does take whatever opportunities He sees fit, to reach us.

I always believed that God must love all His children the same, or He cannot truly love any of us. Even more so as a UR believer.

God will seek us, wherever we may be found, in whatever circumstances, in whatever condition, that He finds the moment we are most receptive to Him.

That is my  :2c:

[MusicLover123]

What can I say, I love music. But you know that if you have read my first few posts  :laugh:

Hmmm, I was just looking through a couple of your earliest posts. But, no mention of music! You did make some pretty funny statements back then though. :laugh:
I also am a big animal fan. If it was not for my animal hair allergy, I would probably become a veterinarian one day...
I feel God is calling me to be more in a job to help others in need though.

That's some sort of chicken and egg question that being discussed  in several Saved by faith alone threads.

For myself, I am more on the side of "God chooses you first" sort of thing. But, I do respect (for the most part) people who say otherwise. I also find Molinism is the least talked about here. I heard it is most popular among contemporary philosophers. I also believe the "once saved always saved" slogan, but if you do not, feel free to disagree with me.

Well, if you read how people found God, it's not always that they were searching for Him (me), some people found Him in jail. Or when doing stupid things.
I think if God wishes He can and will teach even the most high person on the planet.
He can, and possibly/likely did.
But that's no proof He actually is pleased by it.

Wait, are you saying you found yourself wound up in jail? If so, how was the experience?

Speaking of jail, I watched the show "Shot Caller" on Netflix 'bout a month ago. Sometimes the violence was a bit too much for me, and I felt the ending was a bit depressing, but I feel it really shows the power of forgiveness. Also, as a younger child, I watched a lot of "Criminal Minds" and other related Crime shows. Psychological Thrillers are my favorites though.

As you mentioned, I have done a bit of stupid stuff myself in my short lifetime. I know God used those experiences, though, that I may learn from them. Even just reflecting on my past, as growing more in the Spirit, I can now understand the purpose of those things, and learn from them.

Not sure if this applies here, but I think the Gospel is not a matter of if, it is a matter of when.

How many people on deathrow found God? Let's say a million. Does that mean that crimes deserving death are ways God prefers?
I think not.

I do not think so either, so gotta agree with you here

I think drugs are of satan. They a satan's tool of destruction. They are satan's tool of stealing people from God.
But sometimes God decides to annoy satan and steps in his playground.

I do agree with you, but with a bit of a disclaimer...
Would you say that all drugs are tools of Satan? Or just, say, 95% of them? For example, is caffeine a drug? I am a fan of (sweet) coffee myself, so just curious. Another one is Cannabis. Do you truly believe it can be used for good? Or is that one perpetuated lies spread by its supporters?

Rememeber that satan can appear as an angel of light. For me that means he looks good and kind. He speaks 95% good things like helping people. But the real deal is the 5% poison/leaven he injects. And while 95% is good stuff, the 5% is lethal.

I wouldn't be surprised Satan invented the whole drugs lead to God story.

I would not be either bro. I thought you would say that Satan has 95% lies and 5% good deeds. But then again, even one rotten apple spoils the bunch.

I can recommend vanilla with brown sugar, honey and Amaretto.

Huh, never heard of Amaretto! I searched it up, and it looks like you consume...

Satan's blood! Nice try, Satan!

I am allergic to peanuts and nuts anyway, so could not consume it even if I wanted to. Ice cream(usually Vanilla) and Oreo's are one of my favorites though.

[MusicLover123]

We are told that our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit. I, personally, do not advocate the use of drugs, to find God.

We know that drugs can be dangerous to our health, could possibly cause our death, or cause us to somehow injure others.

However, I do not believe that God is not able to take, what is potentially a bad situation, and use it for good.

We see examples of this, all through the Bible.  God can and does take whatever opportunities He sees fit, to reach us.

I always believed that God must love all His children the same, or He cannot truly love any of us. Even more so as a UR believer.

God will seek us, wherever we may be found, in whatever circumstances, in whatever condition, that He finds the moment we are most receptive to Him.

That is my  :2c:

Good thoughts, Dandelion.

But, as I mentioned to WhiteWings, would you consider all drugs to be harmful? Isn't Caffeine considered a drug? What about the Pharmaceutical industry? What are your thoughts on that?

[Dandelion]

I, personally never smoked, drank, or took drugs. Actually, I don't even have caffeine these days.

This is due to my past. It is my personal choice. I am very comfortable with it, but I don't judge
others. That is for God, alone.

D.

[MusicLover123]

I, personally never smoked, drank, or took drugs. Actually, I don't even have caffeine these days.

This is due to my past. It is my personal choice. I am very comfortable with it, but I don't judge
others. That is for God, alone.

D.

I have never smoked or did drugs myself. I have tried drinks, but not to the point of getting drunk. I don't really enjoy it much, honestly. Only tried it because I reached that "age" to be able to. I may drink if family is, but even then, probably no...

[jabcat]

I can only offer an opinion with a few scriptural references.

Be not drunk with wine, but be filled with the Holy Spirit.  Be sober, be diligent..give no place to the devil/give no place to the flesh.

Pain relief, disease/disorder relief, physical/psychological improvement - within reasonable boundaries of sobriety and due diligence, never giving any place to loss of control or an opportunity for satan to enter/use an addled mind - possibly acceptable, always only as approved by the Holy Spirit within.  Personally, I don't believe any of those conditions allow for "using it as a way to experience God".  So generally, I'd say no.

:thumbsup:

But, one question. You say that in general, that you would say no. But how would you address those specific cases? What if a believer were to engage with, say weed, and it strengthened their relationship with God? If the Holy Spirit gave them revelations they normally would not notice?

:)  yeah, after i wrote that, i was sort of bothered by the word generally, but left it.

I'd say I'd have to stick with the above that I went back and highlighted, and say beyond that, I would doubt. I'd be skeptical about their reported experience, what its origins actually were.  I would probably not come down hard and say I knew for sure, but I would be hesitant about their report, based on their means to "get there".  Seems we have guidelines about how to seek the Lord, walk in His presence, etc.  I personally don't see where substances enter into that specific equation, i.e., "exeriencing God".  Maybe appropriate"feeling better/hurting/struggling less", with medicinal application, etc - but not specifically "experiencing God".   :thumbsup: 

[MusicLover123]

I can only offer an opinion with a few scriptural references.

Be not drunk with wine, but be filled with the Holy Spirit.  Be sober, be diligent..give no place to the devil/give no place to the flesh.

Pain relief, disease/disorder relief, physical/psychological improvement - within reasonable boundaries of sobriety and due diligence, never giving any place to loss of control or an opportunity for satan to enter/use an addled mind - possibly acceptable, always only as approved by the Holy Spirit within.  Personally, I don't believe any of those conditions allow for "using it as a way to experience God".  So generally, I'd say no.

:thumbsup:

But, one question. You say that in general, that you would say no. But how would you address those specific cases? What if a believer were to engage with, say weed, and it strengthened their relationship with God? If the Holy Spirit gave them revelations they normally would not notice?

:)  yeah, after i wrote that, i was sort of bothered by the word generally, but left it.

I'd say I'd have to stick with the above that I went back and highlighted, and say beyond that, I would doubt. I'd be skeptical about their reported experience, what its origins actually were.  I would probably not come down hard and say I knew for sure, but I would be hesitant about their report, based on their means to "get there".  Seems we have guidelines about how to seek the Lord, walk in His presence, etc.  I personally don't see where substances enter into that specific equation, i.e., "exeriencing God".  Maybe appropriate"feeling better/hurting/struggling less", with medicinal application, etc - but not specifically "experiencing God".   :thumbsup:

I gotcha!

I am a bit skeptical of those stories myself, but it still makes me curious, if every one of these cases is false.

Reading through cough "willieH" cough made me question if his experiences he mentioned where truthful or not, so I would think to ask about it.  :thumbsup:

[jabcat]

Yeah, one of those threads got locked and I caught cough heck over it from a certain former member ;)  lol.  :help:

[MusicLover123]

;)

Did cough cough confess to his crimes?

[jabcat]

if you mean, as in apology, hardly   :footmouth:

forgiven anyway...still, an interesting memory  :thumbsup:

:Peace2:

[MusicLover123]

Just out of curiosity, do you have a link to that particular event? You mentioned it was locked, but I still wanna find out about that... interesting memory.

As they say, curiosity killed the cat! If you don't want to, I am OK with that. I would respect your decision.

From the more famous topics here, I find Peacetroll's posts the most interesting so far. He seemed so arrogant in his posts. For someone who claimed to be a UR believer at one point, he sure did know how to read doctrines into certain passages.

I still forgive him though. We are called to suffer for good, and to love those who persecute us. It will only help us grow, and help them learn, what love truly means.

:Peace2:

[jabcat]

I've probably said plenty.  I'll PM you.  :)

[WhiteWings]

What can I say, I love music. But you know that if you have read my first few posts  :laugh:

Hmmm, I was just looking through a couple of your earliest posts. But, no mention of music!

I found this forum when I was Googling for lyrics "the number of the beast"

That's some sort of chicken and egg question that being discussed  in several Saved by faith alone threads.

For myself, I am more on the side of "God chooses you first" sort of thing. But, I do respect (for the most part) people who say otherwise. I also find Molinism is the least talked about here. I heard it is most popular among contemporary philosophers. I also believe the "once saved always saved" slogan, but if you do not, feel free to disagree with me.

For me faith alone saves. But only when you define faith as Jesus did. And that means with actions. Not just lip service. Without it, it's dead faith.
Once saved always saved I don't believe. I see see no proof for that in the Bible. People can fall away. Or as we read in Revelation "...your love for me has grown cold"

Well, if you read how people found God, it's not always that they were searching for Him (me), some people found Him in jail. Or when doing stupid things.
I think if God wishes He can and will teach even the most high person on the planet.
He can, and possibly/likely did.
But that's no proof He actually is pleased by it.

Wait, are you saying you found yourself wound up in jail? If so, how was the experience?

No, I've never been in jail. The only legal problems I have had are 3 speeding tickets, 2 parking ticket and riding with my bicycle on the sidewalk :-)

Speaking of jail, I watched the show "Shot Caller" on Netflix 'bout a month ago. Sometimes the violence was a bit too much for me,

I measure quality by the gallons of blood  :laugh:

I think drugs are of satan. They a satan's tool of destruction. They are satan's tool of stealing people from God.
But sometimes God decides to annoy satan and steps in his playground.

I do agree with you, but with a bit of a disclaimer...
Would you say that all drugs are tools of Satan? Or just, say, 95% of them? For example, is caffeine a drug? I am a fan of (sweet) coffee myself, so just curious. Another one is Cannabis. Do you truly believe it can be used for good? Or is that one perpetuated lies spread by its supporters?

I can't answer that because it's so extremely difficult to define limits. But I can say I look much more negative to crack than I do to a joint. Cannabis can even have a medical purpose. In fact it was used world wide as such until the beginning of the previous century.
Is caffeine a drug? Yes. So is sugar. If you Google how drugs work you will see they stimulate certain zones in your brain. And that zone is the same for heroine, sugar, caffeine, etc.
And that's the difficult part of this. Are we going to start CA (Caffeine Anonymous) groups now?
What's a drug is largely defined by culture. In the west it's very simple to buy a sixpack. Even no issue to walk with it on the street. How different it is in certain muslim countries. In the USA people get jailed for cannabis, but it gets legalized more and more. Does a change in law make drugs more or less drugs? In people's mind most likely yes, but not in God's mind.

[MusicLover123]

I found this forum when I was Googling for lyrics "the number of the beast"

Never heard of that song. Guessing it is a sort of Heavy Metal genre?

For me faith alone saves. But only when you define faith as Jesus did. And that means with actions. Not just lip service. Without it, it's dead faith.
Once saved always saved I don't believe. I see see no proof for that in the Bible. People can fall away. Or as we read in Revelation "...your love for me has grown cold"

Yeah, now that I think of it, you are more correct than I am. Funnily enough, the "once saved always saved" crowd is not any assurance. Why? Well, how do you know if were truly saved in the first place? I have heard that "You believe that Christ is your Savior." But, what if you are just playing by emotions, and you do not? What if some demon's are tricking you into thinking that? What if God made your life out of boredom, and decided to make you a candidate of His new torturing device that you have no escape from?

I am aware that people can "fall away" and need correction, especially as 1 Cor. 3:15 notes. And that Faith without works is dead. I am starting to rethink what Election is though. I used to think that it was for individuals, as I was taught by cough Calvinists cough. Then, a bit earlier last year I learned it could be interpreted as Nations. Now, I am starting to wonder if it is talking about Natural Man/Carnal Man and Spiritual Man; the 2 Natures in us as believers. Still working through it though, as with a lot of things now, so don't quote me on that.  :LH:

No, I've never been in jail. The only legal problems I have had are 3 speeding tickets, 2 parking ticket and riding with my bicycle on the sidewalk :-)

Riding a bike on the sidewalk is a crime? I suck at bicycle's anyway. Last time I rode one I almost ran into an oncoming car :-)

I measure quality by the gallons of blood  :laugh:

You watch bloody movies on Blood Moons, correct?  :icon_jokercolor:

Are we going to start CA (Caffeine Anonymous) groups now?

Yep, and your can be the leader!

What's a drug is largely defined by culture. In the west it's very simple to buy a sixpack. Even no issue to walk with it on the street. How different it is in certain muslim countries. In the USA people get jailed for cannabis, but it gets legalized more and more. Does a change in law make drugs more or less drugs? In people's mind most likely yes, but not in God's mind.

Just a thought, would you argue to legalize all drugs, as those crimes are thought to just waste space in jail's, or just make everything illegal?

[jabcat]

ML, I was kind'a wondering/watching where this part of the conversation might go.  People have been arguing over this for thousands of years, Calvinists vs. Armenians, and various stripes in between.  I used to think Calvinists were crazy, but now I believe what they truly miss is, the "end game", i.e., that all will be reconciled.  Other than that, I do believe God has a chosen, elected ecclesia in this age - all according to His grace, mercy, and purpose.  I DON'T suppose to convince anyone who is hard set in any direction on this topic, so will only engage minimally, but rather state my own beliefs in case it's useful to anyone.  Maybe just useful to me  :laugh:.  As you know, so much of a discussion topic often involves interpretation/personal understanding.  There are things I used to believe a certain way and no longer do, and probably vice versa.  I often get the sense that we truly know such a small amount of Who and What God really is, and what He is doing.

I was raised and believed for years in "you got to choose, but then you got to keep working at it to stay saved, and if you make any little mistake, you're lost again and doomed to hell".  I've come to a place where I just can't buy much if any of that anymore, except I believe we do "choose' IN THE SENSE of responding to Christ and the Holy Spirit when we're called.  The rest of it, I see as follows;  I believe we can "fall away" in the sense that maybe we're not walking in obedience - or conversely - struggling so much in works rather than fully trusting Christ and what He accomplished on the cross, His death, and resurrection, that we've "fallen from grace" - i.e., trusting our own works instead of His, so not living in victory, obedience, peace (the "kingdom of God").

But as far as truly falling away from being God's child ("unsaved"), once drawn, responded, regenerated, moved from being classified as a child of the devil and moved into being a child of God (Jn 1:12) - and then losing salvation/being God's child, and becoming again a "child of the devil" - I no longer believe that.  God's gifts and calling are irrevocable (Rm. 11:29), and when we're saved, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto that day (Eph. 1:13).  His mark is upon us, we're born into the family, no longer bastards but sons.  A son is part of a family, and can't be divorced from that family, even if needing discipline and correction to be an obedient son and inherit all of the benefits and promises.

Anyway, I guess if walking somewhere in the middle of the road (not abusing grace through careless living and following the flesh) vs. struggling so hard through self-righteousness and human effort to "stay saved/worthy", then probably no harm in taking either view.  Because either person, IMO, is still sustained and brought along by the grace and mercy of God, whether we realize it or not.   :thumbsup:

how do you know if were truly saved in the first place? I have heard that "You believe that Christ is your Savior." But, what if you are just playing by emotions, and you do not?

All that said about security, His works not ours, etc., we are told this;  2 Peter 1:10  make every effort to confirm your calling and election.   Related thoughts might be "growing in grace and knowledge", "looking to Jesus who is the author and finisher [completer] of our faith", "walk worthy of the high calling", "created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life", and "to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God".

:thumbsup:

[MusicLover123]

ML, I was kind'a wondering/watching where this part of the conversation might go.  People have been arguing over this for thousands of years, Calvinists vs. Armenians, and various stripes in between.

I am aware of that! There have been more bloodbath's on this site, than any other war combined, right? As a soldier in this ongoing battle, how is your experiences in it? Is your wife waiting for you for the end of it?

I used to think Calvinists were crazy, but now I believe what they truly miss is, the "end game", i.e., that all will be reconciled.  Other than that, I do believe God has a chosen, elected ecclesia in this age - all according to His grace, mercy, and purpose.  I DON'T suppose to convince anyone who is hard set in any direction on this topic, so will only engage minimally, but rather state my own beliefs in case it's useful to anyone.  Maybe just useful to me  :laugh:.  As you know, so much of a discussion topic often involves interpretation/personal understanding.  There are things I used to believe a certain way and no longer do, and probably vice versa.  I often get the sense that we truly know such a small amount of Who and What God really is, and what He is doing.

Yeah, I understand you. I grew up with a more Arminian background, though even then we did not really talk in depth about theological things. Then, about 2-3 years ago, I found out about that, and then became a zombie toward unbelievers after much(little?) thought, converted to "Calvinism." Honestly, at the time, I did not do it mainly because of my own studies, but more so because of other man's doctrines and opinions that are often spouted. Though, I think God brought me through that movement, to give me more of an understanding of some key subjects. Like Election, God's will vs man's, the Sovereignty of God, and other things. Personally, I also think Calvinists would have an easier time jumping to Universalism than Arminians would. Mainly because of they already believe in the Sovereignty of God, but just do not usually make that jump between saving a few and saving all. Or that God loves everyone.

And yes, there are things I also used to believe that I do not anymore. If only you others would do the same. :laugh:

I was raised and believed for years in "you got to choose, but then you got to keep working at it to stay saved, and if you make any little mistake, you're lost again and doomed to hell".

Well, when I was growing up, hell was not really not really mentioned. Maybe as a figure of speech, but not as a "You're going to hell" kind of thing. I went to a Methodist Church as a child, though we suddenly stopped going one day. I am thankful to God for that, as I was not indoctrinated as much as others. We never thought of every one being saved though. It was still you choose God first, God doesn't want robots, love is free and cannot be forced, etc.

I've come to a place where I just can't buy much if any of that anymore, except I believe we do "choose' IN THE SENSE of responding to Christ and the Holy Spirit when we're called.  The rest of it, I see as follows;  I believe we can "fall away" in the sense that maybe we're not walking in obedience - or conversely - struggling so much in works rather than fully trusting Christ and what He accomplished on the cross, His death, and resurrection, that we've "fallen from grace" - i.e., trusting our own works instead of His, so not living in victory, obedience, peace (the "kingdom of God").

Me as well. Speaking of that, it seems apparent to me that Hell was pushed to the back of my mind. When it was brought up, it was you who chose it, not God.

A little story here. When I was little, we had a cartoon set of Bible stories animated. I would sit at my TV for hours just watching them. They even came with some little workbooks I would fill out! I do not remember seeing any mention of "hell" in those cartoons though. Probably would scare the children.  :laughing7:

But as far as truly falling away from being God's child ("unsaved"), once drawn, responded, regenerated, moved from being classified as a child of the devil and moved into being a child of God (Jn 1:12) - and then losing salvation/being God's child, and becoming again a "child of the devil" - I no longer believe that.  God's gifts and calling are irrevocable (Rm. 11:29), and when we're saved, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto that day (Eph. 1:13).  His mark is upon us, we're born into the family, no longer bastards but sons.  A son is part of a family, and can't be divorced from that family, even if needing discipline and correction to be an obedient son and inherit all of the benefits and promises.

Good thoughts. I also recall, maybe I am wrong here, that with parables like the prodigal son, everything is with the Father, Everything returns to him, only after it has left.

how do you know if were truly saved in the first place? I have heard that "You believe that Christ is your Savior." But, what if you are just playing by emotions, and you do not?

I was actually being a bit sarcastic here, that when under a Calvinist/Arminian line of thought, there is always fear involved, and in that fear, there is no assurance if you truly escape it.
You gave a good answer to it though, so I will give you credit for that. :)

:thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

I found this forum when I was Googling for lyrics "the number of the beast"

Never heard of that song. Guessing it is a sort of Heavy Metal genre?

I suggest you start guessing lottery numbers  :banana:

For me faith alone saves. But only when you define faith as Jesus did. And that means with actions. Not just lip service. Without it, it's dead faith.
Once saved always saved I don't believe. I see see no proof for that in the Bible. People can fall away. Or as we read in Revelation "...your love for me has grown cold"

Yeah, now that I think of it, you are more correct than I am. Funnily enough, the "once saved always saved" crowd is not any assurance. Why? Well, how do you know if were truly saved in the first place? I have heard that "You believe that Christ is your Savior." But, what if you are just playing by emotions, and you do not? What if some demon's are tricking you into thinking that? What if God made your life out of boredom, and decided to make you a candidate of His new torturing device that you have no escape from?

I think the parables of the seeds falling of different soil represent quite well what I believe. Several groups started believing (=saved) but most fell away after a certain time. In the OT we  see the same on nation wide scale. All is fine->Israel falls away-> God is patient ->Isreal keeps messing up -> Exile (salvation lost) -> God gives another change (saved) -> Etc
OSAS is from the start until you appear before the White Throne. If you fall away, you never were really OSAS. That's what I've read on a OSAS site.

I am aware that people can "fall away" and need correction, especially as 1 Cor. 3:15 notes. And that Faith without works is dead. I am starting to rethink what Election is though. I used to think that it was for individuals,

That's a blurred line. I think I can safely assume we agree if I say that troughout time there have always been Jewish individuals ranging from good-bad. We see the same on tribal scale and even on whole Israel scale. When God exiled a whole nation most likely some Jews were still doing quite ok.

Not being dogmatic about this because it's rather complex and difficult to group the many shades of grey.
- People will never end up in classic hell. But I do in (severe) timelimited correction. Lake of Fire. Or Lake of Life as I call it on my website
- Saved means you do avoid LoL
- The elect are the actual bride. The ones that rule a 1000 year with Christ. The ones that judge in the name of Christ.
- The body is the church. Church = wedding guests. They stay dead during the millenium.
- The bride is hidden inside the churc. The bride is the veiled mystery. Revelation means unveiling the bride. Bride = elect

as I was taught by cough Calvinists cough. Then, a bit earlier last year I learned it could be interpreted as Nations. Now, I am starting to wonder if it is talking about Natural Man/Carnal Man and Spiritual Man; the 2 Natures in us as believers. Still working through it though, as with a lot of things now, so don't quote me on that.  :LH:

For me personally the following is a fact: If someone only sees one meaning then that person is missing several more hidden meanings.

What's a drug is largely defined by culture. In the west it's very simple to buy a sixpack. Even no issue to walk with it on the street. How different it is in certain muslim countries. In the USA people get jailed for cannabis, but it gets legalized more and more. Does a change in law make drugs more or less drugs? In people's mind most likely yes, but not in God's mind.

Just a thought, would you argue to legalize all drugs, as those crimes are thought to just waste space in jail's, or just make everything illegal?

No because drugs destroy people. Click here for very graphic pictures. For those who don't like horror movies some stuff makes heroin look like childplay.