Greetings!
As I was perusing through http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/why-did-god-make-drugs/ (http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/why-did-god-make-drugs/) I found an interesting proposition that I feel was responded to inadequately:
"Is the feeling of getting high a way to experience God?"
Sounds a bit weird, but it still intrigues me. Do you think, that, when we do certain actions, (I would like to keep this kid friendly, people! :laughing7:) when it releases dopamine and other chemicals, that the good feelings you would receive is feelings we will get when we finally see Him in our glorified selves?
Of course, this question assumes a bunch of things. For example "Would every herb have been given to us, just to use for something more than good feelings?"
I do not do any drugs or drinking myself either. I feel that would bear against my conscience and regard it as sin, and that is just not something I would disobey God for. I hope to have a good conscience in all things, as Hebrews 13:18 notes.
Another question... How would you explain the images that these users see, in the usage and consumption of these drugs. For example, mushrooms? I have not really researched into the experiences that these people testify about, have no desire to, really. There seems to be a great amount of "spiritual experiences" among these users. Whether or not they lie, I do not know.
But, in regards to others...
What are your thoughts?
Blessings :thumbsup:
ML
I can only offer an opinion with a few scriptural references.
Be not drunk with wine, but be filled with the Holy Spirit. Be sober, be diligent..give no place to the devil/give no place to the flesh.
Pain relief, disease/disorder relief, physical/psychological improvement - within reasonable boundaries of sobriety and due diligence, never giving any place to loss of control or an opportunity for satan to enter/use an addled mind - possibly acceptable, always only as approved by the Holy Spirit within. Personally, I don't believe any of those conditions allow for "using it as a way to experience God". So generally, I'd say no.
Recently I've read something about how you can know if God or satan is speaking to you(r mind).
The answer is something like: Think about the longer term effect. Doe sit move you closer to God?
Drugs are very often a downward spiral. They often lead to stealing to finance the next high. God doesn't like theft so drugs move you away from God.
Alcohol (and drugs) wreck your body. God wants health for you. So that's moving away from God too.
What people experience during a high I don't really know. But from outward appearances I must conclude they aren't able to process anything serious. Some pass out. Some look like zombies. Some get loud like a 3 year old in the playground. My guess is their ability to process information is at the same level.
The Bible doesn't forbid alcohol. But being drunk is different. It's like the Bible doesn't forbid food but gluttony isn't one of God's ideals.....
So, the long term effects seem to be negative.
The Godly teachings during the high seem to be none existent.
People act stupid/illegal when high. Think about a drunk driver killing someone.
So what do you conclude......? :laugh:
I have no idea if people can experience God under the influence of drugs, alcohol or anything else, but I do believe "with God all things are possible"
About the only thing I can say on the matter is that both God and these things do have one thing in common ..... "they all influence behavior"
It is what I have come to understand about the difference between water and wine with Christ's first miracle ..... water can sustain life with no influence in your behavior, but wine (like God's Spirit) can influence behavior in your life
my :2c:
:thumbsup:
The new wine is the blood of Jesus shed for sin, covering it all , once for all time , by Gods gift of grace , [Always present ]
His flesh opened heaven for all , this would be the only high worth having and experiencing in my opinion ,
One that never lets you down , but as He is lifted up He is drawing all mankind with Him ,
We praise God and Lift up His Holy name in the earth as it is in heaven .. :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
Hey WhiteWings! So, you finally mustered enough confidence to comment on a question of mine! Congrats!
It's great to see your
spamming posting throughout the years. What I have read of you so far, you seem to be very knowledgeable in these areas. I am impressed how much you have grown and became wiser from the early Tentmaker days.
Now, enough of that
tangent. I'll address some of your points.
QuoteRecently I've read something about how you can know if God or satan is speaking to you(r mind).
The answer is something like: Think about the longer term effect. Doe sit move you closer to God?
Well, for me personally, drugs and drinking would move me away from God. I feel it would please my flesh, my carnal self, the "Adam in me" from an old post on this issue. I have no problems with others engaging with alcohol, but I feel I would lose control of myself, even with just a tad bit of it. I have also seen how damaging drugs can be to an individual, how it brings you away from relationship with others and makes it to where only others are purposed to bring self pleasure, and not loving them...
QuoteDrugs are very often a downward spiral. They often lead to stealing to finance the next high. God doesn't like theft so drugs move you away from God.
Alcohol (and drugs) wreck your body. God wants health for you. So that's moving away from God too.
Right. I have seen that downward spiral escalate from someone I know of. It is not the most pleasant experience to be a passerby of. This is especially true if there is next to nothing you can act upon, to change their life for the better. I find it interesting, though. What if, as it was proposed by a user on an old thread here, that in that "high" that it edify's their relationship with God?
QuoteThe Bible doesn't forbid alcohol. But being drunk is different. It's like the Bible doesn't forbid food but gluttony isn't one of God's ideals.....
I am aware that alcohol is not off limits, only drunkenness is. I should have made that point clear in OP. It seems to me, in a Biblical sense, that in most areas(maybe Prayer is an exception, as how can you pray too much? Maybe idolize it...?) moderation is a key skill to learn. As exemplified beforehand, take water as an example. Basically the crux for all life, but too much can kill you, and so can too little. Same as you mentioned, with food. It has the same effects.
Just another tangent, here. It is not that there are a certain list of rules that we have to follow(Eg. the Law.) Remember, the law is fulfilled with Christ. We are called to do certain actions. But, not out of fear, but out of
love. As perfect love casts out fear, love also illuminates darkness. We also fulfill the Law, by loving our neighbor as ourselves. We strive to be like God, not out of fearing Him, but out of Loving Him...
QuoteSo, the long term effects seem to be negative.
The Godly teachings during the high seem to be none existent.
People act stupid/illegal when high. Think about a drunk driver killing someone.
Exactly, just as I lamented on just above. What do you think, though, that these people see in these instances. Demonic visions? Even a lucky guess would be helpful.
QuoteSo what do you conclude......? :laugh:
Same as you bro! That they need a lot more ice cream in their lives! :winkgrin:
Quote from: jabcat on January 25, 2018, 04:56:11 AM
I can only offer an opinion with a few scriptural references.
Be not drunk with wine, but be filled with the Holy Spirit. Be sober, be diligent..give no place to the devil/give no place to the flesh.
Pain relief, disease/disorder relief, physical/psychological improvement - within reasonable boundaries of sobriety and due diligence, never giving any place to loss of control or an opportunity for satan to enter/use an addled mind - possibly acceptable, always only as approved by the Holy Spirit within. Personally, I don't believe any of those conditions allow for "using it as a way to experience God". So generally, I'd say no.
:thumbsup:
But, one question. You say that in general, that you would say no. But how would you address those specific cases? What if a believer were to engage with, say weed, and it strengthened their relationship with God? If the Holy Spirit gave them revelations they normally would not notice?
Quote from: jugghead on January 25, 2018, 10:33:57 AM
I have no idea if people can experience God under the influence of drugs, alcohol or anything else, but I do believe "with God all things are possible"
About the only thing I can say on the matter is that both God and these things do have one thing in common ..... "they all influence behavior"
It is what I have come to understand about the difference between water and wine with Christ's first miracle ..... water can sustain life with no influence in your behavior, but wine (like God's Spirit) can influence behavior in your life
my :2c:
Good thoughts, there.
I guess it would come to this... Who do you serve? Sin or Christ? Death or Life? You cannot serve two masters, or else your foundation will fall. If your foundation is God, then you are truly free. Free to do what? Freedom to love one another. I think Freedom should be understood, not in a quantitative sense, but in a qualitative sense. Not how much choices can you make, but how much freedom you give to another...
This is me without Christ... :bottlebump:
This is me with him... :drummer: :violin: :angelharp:
Quote:thumbsup:
The new wine is the blood of Jesus shed for sin, covering it all , once for all time , by Gods gift of grace , [Always present ]
His flesh opened heaven for all , this would be the only high worth having and experiencing in my opinion ,
One that never lets you down , but as He is lifted up He is drawing all mankind with Him ,
We praise God and Lift up His Holy name in the earth as it is in heaven .. :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
:thumbsup:
God Bless! :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: MusicLover123 on January 25, 2018, 07:40:22 PM
Hey WhiteWings! So, you finally mustered enough confidence to comment on a question of mine! Congrats!
What can I say, I love music. But you know that if you have read my first few posts :laugh:
QuoteJust another tangent, here. It is not that there are a certain list of rules that we have to follow(Eg. the Law.) Remember, the law is fulfilled with Christ. We are called to do certain actions. But, not out of fear, but out of love. As perfect love casts out fear, love also illuminates darkness. We also fulfill the Law, by loving our neighbor as ourselves. We strive to be like God, not out of fearing Him, but out of Loving Him...
That's some sort of chicken and egg question that being discussed in several Saved by faith alone threads.
QuoteRight. I have seen that downward spiral escalate from someone I know of. It is not the most pleasant experience to be a passerby of. This is especially true if there is next to nothing you can act upon, to change their life for the better. I find it interesting, though. What if, as it was proposed by a user on an old thread here, that in that "high" that it edify's their relationship with God?
QuoteQuote from: WWSo, the long term effects seem to be negative.
The Godly teachings during the high seem to be none existent.
People act stupid/illegal when high. Think about a drunk driver killing someone.
Exactly, just as I lamented on just above. What do you think, though, that these people see in these instances. Demonic visions? Even a lucky guess would be helpful.
Well, if you read how people found God, it's not always that they were searching for Him (me), some people found Him in jail. Or when doing stupid things.
I think if God wishes He can and will teach even the most high person on the planet.
He can, and possibly/likely did.
But that's no proof He actually is pleased by it.
How many people on deathrow found God? Let's say a million. Does that mean that crimes deserving death are ways God prefers?
I think not.
I think drugs are of satan. They a satan's tool of destruction. They are satan's tool of stealing people from God.
But sometimes God decides to annoy satan and steps in his playground.
Rememeber that satan can appear as an angel of light. For me that means he looks good and kind. He speaks 95% good things like helping people. But the real deal is the 5% poison/leaven he injects. And while 95% is good stuff, the 5% is lethal.
I wouldn't be suprised Satan invented the whole drugs lead to God story.
QuoteSo what do you conclude......? :laugh:
Same as you bro! That they need a lot more ice cream in their lives! :winkgrin:[/quote]I can recommend vanilla with brown sugar, honey and Amaretto.
We are told that our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit. I, personally, do not advocate the use of drugs, to find God.
We know that drugs can be dangerous to our health, could possibly cause our death, or cause us to somehow injure others.
However, I do not believe that God is not able to take, what is potentially a bad situation, and use it for good.
We see examples of this, all through the Bible. God can and does take whatever opportunities He sees fit, to reach us.
I always believed that God must love all His children the same, or He cannot truly love any of us. Even more so as a UR believer.
God will seek us, wherever we may be found, in whatever circumstances, in whatever condition, that He finds the moment we are most receptive to Him.
That is my :2c:
QuoteWhat can I say, I love music. But you know that if you have read my first few posts :laugh:
Hmmm, I was just looking through a couple of your earliest posts. But, no mention of music! You did make some pretty funny statements back then though. :laugh:
I also am a big animal fan. If it was not for my animal hair allergy, I would probably become a veterinarian one day...
I feel God is calling me to be more in a job to help others in need though.
QuoteThat's some sort of chicken and egg question that being discussed in several Saved by faith alone threads.
For myself, I am more on the side of "God chooses you first" sort of thing. But, I do respect (for the most part) people who say otherwise. I also find Molinism is the least talked about here. I heard it is most popular among contemporary philosophers. I also believe the "once saved always saved" slogan, but if you do not, feel free to disagree with me.
QuoteWell, if you read how people found God, it's not always that they were searching for Him (me), some people found Him in jail. Or when doing stupid things.
I think if God wishes He can and will teach even the most high person on the planet.
He can, and possibly/likely did.
But that's no proof He actually is pleased by it.
Wait, are you saying you found yourself wound up in jail? If so, how was the experience?
Speaking of jail, I watched the show "
Shot Caller" on Netflix 'bout a month ago. Sometimes the violence was a bit too much for me, and I felt the ending was a bit depressing, but I feel it really shows the power of forgiveness. Also, as a younger child, I watched a lot of "
Criminal Minds" and other related Crime shows. Psychological Thrillers are my favorites though.
As you mentioned, I have done a bit of stupid stuff myself in my short lifetime. I know God used those experiences, though, that I may learn from them. Even just reflecting on my past, as growing more in the Spirit, I can now understand the purpose of those things, and learn from them.
Not sure if this applies here, but I think the Gospel is not a matter of if, it is a matter of when.
QuoteHow many people on deathrow found God? Let's say a million. Does that mean that crimes deserving death are ways God prefers?
I think not.
I do not think so either, so gotta agree with you here
QuoteI think drugs are of satan. They a satan's tool of destruction. They are satan's tool of stealing people from God.
But sometimes God decides to annoy satan and steps in his playground.
I do agree with you, but with a bit of a disclaimer...
Would you say that
all drugs are tools of Satan? Or just, say, 95% of them? For example, is caffeine a drug? I am a fan of (sweet) coffee myself, so just curious. Another one is Cannabis. Do you truly believe it can be used for good? Or is that one perpetuated lies spread by its supporters?
QuoteRememeber that satan can appear as an angel of light. For me that means he looks good and kind. He speaks 95% good things like helping people. But the real deal is the 5% poison/leaven he injects. And while 95% is good stuff, the 5% is lethal.
I wouldn't be surprised Satan invented the whole drugs lead to God story.
I would not be either bro. I thought you would say that Satan has 95% lies and 5% good deeds. But then again, even one rotten apple spoils the bunch.
QuoteI can recommend vanilla with brown sugar, honey and Amaretto.
Huh, never heard of Amaretto! I searched it up, and it looks like you consume...
Satan's blood! Nice try,
Satan!I am allergic to peanuts and nuts anyway, so could not consume it even if I wanted to. Ice cream(usually Vanilla) and Oreo's are one of my favorites though.
Quote from: Dandelion on January 25, 2018, 11:41:49 PM
We are told that our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit. I, personally, do not advocate the use of drugs, to find God.
We know that drugs can be dangerous to our health, could possibly cause our death, or cause us to somehow injure others.
However, I do not believe that God is not able to take, what is potentially a bad situation, and use it for good.
We see examples of this, all through the Bible. God can and does take whatever opportunities He sees fit, to reach us.
I always believed that God must love all His children the same, or He cannot truly love any of us. Even more so as a UR believer.
God will seek us, wherever we may be found, in whatever circumstances, in whatever condition, that He finds the moment we are most receptive to Him.
That is my :2c:
Good thoughts, Dandelion.
But, as I mentioned to WhiteWings, would you consider
all drugs to be harmful? Isn't Caffeine considered a drug? What about the Pharmaceutical industry? What are your thoughts on that?
I, personally never smoked, drank, or took drugs. Actually, I don't even have caffeine these days.
This is due to my past. It is my personal choice. I am very comfortable with it, but I don't judge
others. That is for God, alone.
D.
Quote from: Dandelion on January 26, 2018, 01:07:23 AM
I, personally never smoked, drank, or took drugs. Actually, I don't even have caffeine these days.
This is due to my past. It is my personal choice. I am very comfortable with it, but I don't judge
others. That is for God, alone.
D.
I have never smoked or did drugs myself. I have tried drinks, but not to the point of getting drunk. I don't really enjoy it much, honestly. Only tried it because I reached that "age" to be able to. I may drink if family is, but even then, probably no...
Quote from: MusicLover123 on January 25, 2018, 07:57:22 PM
Quote from: jabcat on January 25, 2018, 04:56:11 AM
I can only offer an opinion with a few scriptural references.
Be not drunk with wine, but be filled with the Holy Spirit. Be sober, be diligent..give no place to the devil/give no place to the flesh.
Pain relief, disease/disorder relief, physical/psychological improvement - within reasonable boundaries of sobriety and due diligence, never giving any place to loss of control or an opportunity for satan to enter/use an addled mind - possibly acceptable, always only as approved by the Holy Spirit within. Personally, I don't believe any of those conditions allow for "using it as a way to experience God". So generally, I'd say no.
:thumbsup:
But, one question. You say that in general, that you would say no. But how would you address those specific cases? What if a believer were to engage with, say weed, and it strengthened their relationship with God? If the Holy Spirit gave them revelations they normally would not notice?
:) yeah, after i wrote that, i was sort of bothered by the word generally, but left it.
I'd say I'd have to stick with the above that I went back and highlighted, and say beyond that, I would doubt. I'd be skeptical about their reported experience, what its origins actually were. I would probably not come down hard and say I knew for sure, but I would be hesitant about their report, based on their means to "get there". Seems we have guidelines about how to seek the Lord, walk in His presence, etc. I personally don't see where substances enter into that specific equation, i.e., "exeriencing God". Maybe appropriate"feeling better/hurting/struggling less", with medicinal application, etc - but not specifically "experiencing God". :thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on January 26, 2018, 04:09:43 AM
Quote from: MusicLover123 on January 25, 2018, 07:57:22 PM
Quote from: jabcat on January 25, 2018, 04:56:11 AM
I can only offer an opinion with a few scriptural references.
Be not drunk with wine, but be filled with the Holy Spirit. Be sober, be diligent..give no place to the devil/give no place to the flesh.
Pain relief, disease/disorder relief, physical/psychological improvement - within reasonable boundaries of sobriety and due diligence, never giving any place to loss of control or an opportunity for satan to enter/use an addled mind - possibly acceptable, always only as approved by the Holy Spirit within. Personally, I don't believe any of those conditions allow for "using it as a way to experience God". So generally, I'd say no.
:thumbsup:
But, one question. You say that in general, that you would say no. But how would you address those specific cases? What if a believer were to engage with, say weed, and it strengthened their relationship with God? If the Holy Spirit gave them revelations they normally would not notice?
:) yeah, after i wrote that, i was sort of bothered by the word generally, but left it.
I'd say I'd have to stick with the above that I went back and highlighted, and say beyond that, I would doubt. I'd be skeptical about their reported experience, what its origins actually were. I would probably not come down hard and say I knew for sure, but I would be hesitant about their report, based on their means to "get there". Seems we have guidelines about how to seek the Lord, walk in His presence, etc. I personally don't see where substances enter into that specific equation, i.e., "exeriencing God". Maybe appropriate"feeling better/hurting/struggling less", with medicinal application, etc - but not specifically "experiencing God". :thumbsup:
I gotcha!
I am a bit skeptical of those stories myself, but it still makes me curious, if every one of these cases is false.
Reading through
cough "willieH"
cough made me question if his experiences he mentioned where truthful or not, so I would think to ask about it. :thumbsup:
Yeah, one of those threads got locked and I caught cough heck over it from a certain former member ;) lol. :help:
;)
Did cough cough confess to his crimes?
if you mean, as in apology, hardly :footmouth:
forgiven anyway...still, an interesting memory :thumbsup:
:Peace2:
Just out of curiosity, do you have a link to that particular event? You mentioned it was locked, but I still wanna find out about that... interesting memory.
As they say, curiosity killed the cat! If you don't want to, I am OK with that. I would respect your decision.
From the more famous topics here, I find Peacetroll's posts the most interesting so far. He seemed so arrogant in his posts. For someone who claimed to be a UR believer at one point, he sure did know how to read doctrines into certain passages.
I still forgive him though. We are called to suffer for good, and to love those who persecute us. It will only help us grow, and help them learn, what love truly means.
:Peace2:
I've probably said plenty. I'll PM you. :)
Quote from: MusicLover123 on January 26, 2018, 12:41:21 AM
QuoteWhat can I say, I love music. But you know that if you have read my first few posts :laugh:
Hmmm, I was just looking through a couple of your earliest posts. But, no mention of music!
I found this forum when I was Googling for lyrics "the number of the beast"
QuoteQuoteThat's some sort of chicken and egg question that being discussed in several Saved by faith alone threads.
For myself, I am more on the side of "God chooses you first" sort of thing. But, I do respect (for the most part) people who say otherwise. I also find Molinism is the least talked about here. I heard it is most popular among contemporary philosophers. I also believe the "once saved always saved" slogan, but if you do not, feel free to disagree with me.
For me faith alone saves. But only when you define faith as Jesus did. And that means with actions. Not just lip service. Without it, it's dead faith.
Once saved always saved I don't believe. I see see no proof for that in the Bible. People can fall away. Or as we read in Revelation "...your love for me has grown cold"
QuoteQuoteWell, if you read how people found God, it's not always that they were searching for Him (me), some people found Him in jail. Or when doing stupid things.
I think if God wishes He can and will teach even the most high person on the planet.
He can, and possibly/likely did.
But that's no proof He actually is pleased by it.
Wait, are you saying you found yourself wound up in jail? If so, how was the experience?
No, I've never been in jail. The only legal problems I have had are 3 speeding tickets, 2 parking ticket and riding with my bicycle on the sidewalk :-)
QuoteSpeaking of jail, I watched the show "Shot Caller" on Netflix 'bout a month ago. Sometimes the violence was a bit too much for me,
I measure quality by the gallons of blood :laugh:
QuoteQuoteI think drugs are of satan. They a satan's tool of destruction. They are satan's tool of stealing people from God.
But sometimes God decides to annoy satan and steps in his playground.
I do agree with you, but with a bit of a disclaimer...
Would you say that all drugs are tools of Satan? Or just, say, 95% of them? For example, is caffeine a drug? I am a fan of (sweet) coffee myself, so just curious. Another one is Cannabis. Do you truly believe it can be used for good? Or is that one perpetuated lies spread by its supporters?
I can't answer that because it's so extremely difficult to define limits. But I can say I look much more negative to crack than I do to a joint. Cannabis can even have a medical purpose. In fact it was used world wide as such until the beginning of the previous century.
Is caffeine a drug? Yes. So is sugar. If you Google how drugs work you will see they stimulate certain zones in your brain. And that zone is the same for heroine, sugar, caffeine, etc.
And that's the difficult part of this. Are we going to start CA (Caffeine Anonymous) groups now?
What's a drug is largely defined by culture. In the west it's very simple to buy a sixpack. Even no issue to walk with it on the street. How different it is in certain muslim countries. In the USA people get jailed for cannabis, but it gets legalized more and more. Does a change in law make drugs more or less drugs? In people's mind most likely yes, but not in God's mind.
QuoteI found this forum when I was Googling for lyrics "the number of the beast"
Never heard of that song. Guessing it is a sort of Heavy Metal genre?
QuoteFor me faith alone saves. But only when you define faith as Jesus did. And that means with actions. Not just lip service. Without it, it's dead faith.
Once saved always saved I don't believe. I see see no proof for that in the Bible. People can fall away. Or as we read in Revelation "...your love for me has grown cold"
Yeah, now that I think of it, you are more correct than I am. Funnily enough, the "once saved always saved" crowd is not any assurance. Why? Well, how do you know if were truly saved in the first place? I have heard that "You believe that Christ is your Savior." But, what if you are just playing by emotions, and you do not? What if some demon's are tricking you into thinking that? What if God made your life out of boredom, and decided to make you a candidate of His new torturing device that you have no escape from?
I am aware that people can "fall away" and need correction, especially as
1 Cor. 3:15 notes. And that Faith without works is dead. I am starting to rethink what Election is though. I used to think that it was for individuals, as I was taught by
cough Calvinists
cough. Then, a bit earlier last year I learned it could be interpreted as Nations. Now, I am starting to wonder if it is talking about Natural Man/Carnal Man and Spiritual Man; the 2 Natures in us as believers. Still working through it though, as with a lot of things now, so don't quote me on that. :LH:
QuoteNo, I've never been in jail. The only legal problems I have had are 3 speeding tickets, 2 parking ticket and riding with my bicycle on the sidewalk :-)
Riding a bike on the sidewalk is a crime? I suck at bicycle's anyway. Last time I rode one I almost ran into an oncoming car :-)
QuoteI measure quality by the gallons of blood :laugh:
You watch bloody movies on Blood Moons, correct? :icon_jokercolor:
QuoteAre we going to start CA (Caffeine Anonymous) groups now?
Yep, and your can be the leader!
QuoteWhat's a drug is largely defined by culture. In the west it's very simple to buy a sixpack. Even no issue to walk with it on the street. How different it is in certain muslim countries. In the USA people get jailed for cannabis, but it gets legalized more and more. Does a change in law make drugs more or less drugs? In people's mind most likely yes, but not in God's mind.
Just a thought, would you argue to legalize all drugs, as those crimes are thought to just waste space in jail's, or just make everything illegal?
ML, I was kind'a wondering/watching where this part of the conversation might go. People have been arguing over this for thousands of years, Calvinists vs. Armenians, and various stripes in between. I used to think Calvinists were crazy, but now I believe what they truly miss is, the "end game", i.e., that all will be reconciled. Other than that, I do believe God has a chosen, elected ecclesia in this age - all according to His grace, mercy, and purpose. I DON'T suppose to convince anyone who is hard set in any direction on this topic, so will only engage minimally, but rather state my own beliefs in case it's useful to anyone. Maybe just useful to me :laugh:. As you know, so much of a discussion topic often involves interpretation/personal understanding. There are things I used to believe a certain way and no longer do, and probably vice versa. I often get the sense that we truly know such a small amount of Who and What God really is, and what He is doing.
I was raised and believed for years in "you got to choose, but then you got to keep working at it to stay saved, and if you make any little mistake, you're lost again and doomed to hell". I've come to a place where I just can't buy much if any of that anymore, except I believe we do "choose' IN THE SENSE of responding to Christ and the Holy Spirit when we're called. The rest of it, I see as follows; I believe we can "fall away" in the sense that maybe we're not walking in obedience - or conversely - struggling so much in works rather than fully trusting Christ and what He accomplished on the cross, His death, and resurrection, that we've "fallen from grace" - i.e., trusting our own works instead of His, so not living in victory, obedience, peace (the "kingdom of God").
But as far as truly falling away
from being God's child ("unsaved"), once drawn, responded, regenerated, moved from being classified as a child of the devil and moved into being a child of God (Jn 1:12) - and then losing salvation/being God's child, and becoming again a "child of the devil" - I no longer believe that. God's gifts and calling are irrevocable (Rm. 11:29), and when we're saved, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto that day (Eph. 1:13). His mark is upon us, we're born into the family, no longer bastards but sons. A son is part of a family, and can't be divorced from that family, even if needing discipline and correction to be an obedient son and inherit
all of the benefits and promises.
Anyway, I guess if walking somewhere in the middle of the road (not abusing grace through careless living and following the flesh) vs. struggling so hard through self-righteousness and human effort to "stay saved/worthy", then probably no harm in taking either view. Because either person, IMO, is still sustained and brought along by the grace and mercy of God, whether we realize it or not. :thumbsup:
Quote from: MusicLover123 on January 26, 2018, 10:54:14 PM
how do you know if were truly saved in the first place? I have heard that "You believe that Christ is your Savior." But, what if you are just playing by emotions, and you do not?
All that said about security, His works not ours, etc., we
are told this; 2 Peter 1:10 make every effort to
confirm your calling and election. Related thoughts might be "growing in grace and knowledge", "looking to Jesus who is the author and finisher [completer] of our faith", "walk worthy of the high calling", "created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life", and "to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God".
:thumbsup:
QuoteML, I was kind'a wondering/watching where this part of the conversation might go. People have been arguing over this for thousands of years, Calvinists vs. Armenians, and various stripes in between.
I am aware of that! There have been more bloodbath's on this site, than any other war combined, right? As a soldier in this ongoing battle, how is your experiences in it? Is your wife waiting for you for the end of it?
QuoteI used to think Calvinists were crazy, but now I believe what they truly miss is, the "end game", i.e., that all will be reconciled. Other than that, I do believe God has a chosen, elected ecclesia in this age - all according to His grace, mercy, and purpose. I DON'T suppose to convince anyone who is hard set in any direction on this topic, so will only engage minimally, but rather state my own beliefs in case it's useful to anyone. Maybe just useful to me :laugh:. As you know, so much of a discussion topic often involves interpretation/personal understanding. There are things I used to believe a certain way and no longer do, and probably vice versa. I often get the sense that we truly know such a small amount of Who and What God really is, and what He is doing.
Yeah, I understand you. I grew up with a more Arminian background, though even then we did not really talk in depth about theological things. Then, about 2-3 years ago, I found out about that, and then
became a zombie toward unbelievers after much(little?) thought, converted to "Calvinism." Honestly, at the time, I did not do it mainly because of my own studies, but more so because of other man's doctrines and opinions that are often spouted. Though, I think God brought me through that movement, to give me more of an understanding of some key subjects. Like Election, God's will vs man's, the Sovereignty of God, and other things. Personally, I also think Calvinists would have an easier time jumping to Universalism than Arminians would. Mainly because of they already believe in the Sovereignty of God, but just do not usually make that jump between saving a few and saving all. Or that God loves everyone.
And yes, there are things I also used to believe that I do not anymore. If only
you others would do the same. :laugh:
QuoteI was raised and believed for years in "you got to choose, but then you got to keep working at it to stay saved, and if you make any little mistake, you're lost again and doomed to hell".
Well, when I was growing up, hell was not really not really mentioned. Maybe as a figure of speech, but not as a "You're going to hell" kind of thing. I went to a Methodist Church as a child, though we suddenly stopped going one day. I am thankful to God for that, as I was not indoctrinated as much as others. We never thought of every one being saved though. It was still you choose God first, God doesn't want robots, love is free and cannot be forced, etc.
QuoteI've come to a place where I just can't buy much if any of that anymore, except I believe we do "choose' IN THE SENSE of responding to Christ and the Holy Spirit when we're called. The rest of it, I see as follows; I believe we can "fall away" in the sense that maybe we're not walking in obedience - or conversely - struggling so much in works rather than fully trusting Christ and what He accomplished on the cross, His death, and resurrection, that we've "fallen from grace" - i.e., trusting our own works instead of His, so not living in victory, obedience, peace (the "kingdom of God").
Me as well. Speaking of that, it seems apparent to me that Hell was pushed to the back of my mind. When it was brought up, it was
you who chose it, not God.
A little story here. When I was little, we had a cartoon set of Bible stories animated. I would sit at my TV for hours just watching them. They even came with some little workbooks I would fill out! I do not remember seeing any mention of "hell" in those cartoons though. Probably would scare the children. :laughing7:
QuoteBut as far as truly falling away from being God's child ("unsaved"), once drawn, responded, regenerated, moved from being classified as a child of the devil and moved into being a child of God (Jn 1:12) - and then losing salvation/being God's child, and becoming again a "child of the devil" - I no longer believe that. God's gifts and calling are irrevocable (Rm. 11:29), and when we're saved, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto that day (Eph. 1:13). His mark is upon us, we're born into the family, no longer bastards but sons. A son is part of a family, and can't be divorced from that family, even if needing discipline and correction to be an obedient son and inherit all of the benefits and promises.
Good thoughts. I also recall, maybe I am wrong here, that with parables like the prodigal son, everything is with the Father, Everything returns to him, only after it has left.
Quotehow do you know if were truly saved in the first place? I have heard that "You believe that Christ is your Savior." But, what if you are just playing by emotions, and you do not?
I was actually being a bit sarcastic here, that when under a Calvinist/Arminian line of thought, there is always fear involved, and in that fear, there is no assurance if you truly escape it.
You gave a good answer to it though, so I will give you credit for that. :)
:thumbsup:
Quote from: MusicLover123 on January 26, 2018, 10:54:14 PM
QuoteI found this forum when I was Googling for lyrics "the number of the beast"
Never heard of that song. Guessing it is a sort of Heavy Metal genre?
I suggest you start guessing lottery numbers :banana:
QuoteQuoteFor me faith alone saves. But only when you define faith as Jesus did. And that means with actions. Not just lip service. Without it, it's dead faith.
Once saved always saved I don't believe. I see see no proof for that in the Bible. People can fall away. Or as we read in Revelation "...your love for me has grown cold"
Yeah, now that I think of it, you are more correct than I am. Funnily enough, the "once saved always saved" crowd is not any assurance. Why? Well, how do you know if were truly saved in the first place? I have heard that "You believe that Christ is your Savior." But, what if you are just playing by emotions, and you do not? What if some demon's are tricking you into thinking that? What if God made your life out of boredom, and decided to make you a candidate of His new torturing device that you have no escape from?
I think the parables of the seeds falling of different soil represent quite well what I believe. Several groups started believing (=saved) but most fell away after a certain time. In the OT we see the same on nation wide scale. All is fine->Israel falls away-> God is patient ->Isreal keeps messing up -> Exile (salvation lost) -> God gives another change (saved) -> Etc
OSAS is from the start until you appear before the White Throne. If you fall away, you never were really OSAS. That's what I've read on a OSAS site.
QuoteI am aware that people can "fall away" and need correction, especially as 1 Cor. 3:15 notes. And that Faith without works is dead. I am starting to rethink what Election is though. I used to think that it was for individuals,
That's a blurred line. I think I can safely assume we agree if I say that troughout time there have always been Jewish individuals ranging from good-bad. We see the same on tribal scale and even on whole Israel scale. When God exiled a whole nation most likely some Jews were still doing quite ok.
Not being dogmatic about this because it's rather complex and difficult to group the many shades of grey.
- People will never end up in classic hell. But I do in (severe) timelimited correction. Lake of Fire. Or Lake of Life as I call it on my website (http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/LoL/index.html)
- Saved means you do avoid LoL
- The elect are the actual bride. The ones that rule a 1000 year with Christ. The ones that judge in the name of Christ.
- The body is the church. Church = wedding guests. They stay dead during the millenium.
- The bride is hidden inside the churc. The bride is the veiled mystery. Revelation means unveiling the bride. Bride = elect
Quoteas I was taught by cough Calvinists cough. Then, a bit earlier last year I learned it could be interpreted as Nations. Now, I am starting to wonder if it is talking about Natural Man/Carnal Man and Spiritual Man; the 2 Natures in us as believers. Still working through it though, as with a lot of things now, so don't quote me on that. :LH:
For me personally the following is a fact: If someone only sees one meaning then that person is missing several more hidden meanings.
QuoteQuoteWhat's a drug is largely defined by culture. In the west it's very simple to buy a sixpack. Even no issue to walk with it on the street. How different it is in certain muslim countries. In the USA people get jailed for cannabis, but it gets legalized more and more. Does a change in law make drugs more or less drugs? In people's mind most likely yes, but not in God's mind.
Just a thought, would you argue to legalize all drugs, as those crimes are thought to just waste space in jail's, or just make everything illegal?
No because drugs destroy people. Click here for very graphic pictures. (https://www.google.nl/search?q=krokodil+drug&num=100&safe=active&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi91ZnGgPjYAhVFVxQKHWIYDZwQ_AUICigB&biw=2048&bih=1175) For those who don't like horror movies some stuff makes heroin look like childplay.
QuoteI suggest you start guessing lottery numbers :banana:
Is it... the banana phone number? :banana:
QuoteThat's a blurred line. I think I can safely assume we agree if I say that troughout time there have always been Jewish individuals ranging from good-bad. We see the same on tribal scale and even on whole Israel scale. When God exiled a whole nation most likely some Jews were still doing quite ok.
Not being dogmatic about this because it's rather complex and difficult to group the many shades of grey.
- People will never end up in classic hell. But I do in (severe) timelimited correction. Lake of Fire. Or Lake of Life as I call it on my website
- Saved means you do avoid LoL
- The elect are the actual bride. The ones that rule a 1000 year with Christ. The ones that judge in the name of Christ.
- The body is the church. Church = wedding guests. They stay dead during the millenium.
- The bride is hidden inside the churc. The bride is the veiled mystery. Revelation means unveiling the bride. Bride = elect
Good insights here. If I recall, you mentioned on a much older post that there are
4 meanings to every verse?
Hold on... Here it is! From here (http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/universal-salvation-and-solo-scriptura/msg162495/#msg162495)
Kept it safe in my notes for you, since I thought it was helpful. I even fixed your spelling mistakes, so you don't have to! :bigGrin:
"
2 things are absolutely required to start with.
A good translation and
understanding of the cultural background. The
cultural background is the anchor point.
It's also level 1.
Literal understanding. But, obviously the Bible also
spiritual. Most Christian think the Bible has
2 levels. Literal and
Spiritual. That's the Greek mindset.
Jews believe the Bible has 4 levels.1. pshat=simple/direct2. remez=hinting3. darash=comparison/commentary4. sod=deep, hiddenI tend to believe Jewish view. I enclose a picture of something that's work in progress. It shows 4 is a returning number.
BTW Satan has a similar table. But it is obviously all negative.
Just like you."
Sola Scriptura" is meaningless to me, because so many deceived people trumpet it like a
mantra of self justification for their shallow understandings, lazy scholarship, and spiritual indifference- based in presumptions they received from their mentors who were also shouting out "
SOLA SCRIPTURA!" as they paraded their errors and traditions, as if they were the very "Sword of the Spirit"."
QuoteFor me personally the following is a fact: If someone only sees one meaning then that person is missing several more hidden meanings.
Don't you mean
3 more meanings, as your paradigm you mention above?
QuoteNo because drugs destroy people. Click here for very graphic pictures. For those who don't like horror movies some stuff makes heroin look like childplay.
Ah, that drug, eh? I remember my Parents showing me the effects of that drug online a while back. Definitely did not leave a good impression on my younger self.
Three is several too :-)
A little extra clarification of Sola Scriptura. I believe in that. The problem is that to understand the full meaning of words you need to know how people back then understood those words. If the translation is wrong then the on itself good Sola Scriptura is wrong.
Jesus was the Lamb of God. That's very strange because He was no animal. The true meaning can be found in context and much older books.
Sometimes context isn't enough and we need some backup from cultural understandings.
Think about Matthew 5:38-42. Why is it so important to mention the right cheek? Doesn't right and left hurts equally much?
Why are do Christians always view goats as evil? Is it because all those drawings in which the devil has hooves? Is it because of the sheep goat judgement? If goats are symbolic for the impure, why does God accept goats as an legit sacrifice?
I gotcha regarding Sola Scriptura. So basically, a more accurate mantra would be "Sola Scriptura et Culturetta?" (I do not know much Latin :bigGrin:) Would you also say that only the original manuscripts are inspired and that is where you would apply this saying? That is what I would probably do myself. Even if your translation was 100% accurate in English, you still were not inspired to write them. Maybe inspired by the Spirit though to deeply understand the meaning of the Word.
Could you provide some cultural background in regards to Matthew 5:38-41, and enlighten me with your perfected wisdom? Maybe even on some other things too, like that sheep and goat dichotomy?
Lastly, did you like the way I perfected your old quote above? I find you have really good things to say, but suffer from some pitiful spelling and grammar mistakes. I would be prepared to do that for other things you have said in the past; to resurrect old knowledge, if you will.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on January 28, 2018, 11:45:55 PM
So basically, a more accurate mantra would be "Sola Scriptura et Culturetta?" (I do not know much Latin :bigGrin:) Would you also say that only the original manuscripts are inspired and that is where you would apply this saying?
I would add the word "can".
Even the most perfect/accurate Scripture stands or falls by how it's understood. So let's assume the very original Scripture personally written down by Moses was found. That surely would be a great start. But if translators just translate it as they think it should read because of for example their doctrine, or because they really don't know, then a perfect manuscript is turned into a not so perfect translation.
Personally I think it's impossible to translate between languages. Sure it's possible to add Chinese subtitles to an American horror movie. But I can say from personal experience that things get more difficult with comedies that use word games. Those double meanings don't have a counterpart in other languages. To make it even worse imagine all law books are translated into Chinese because the Supreme court has new judge from China. That judge is the smartest and most honest judge that has ever lived. But he doesn't speak a single word English and doesn't know anything about the American culture. Do you think a team of the best translators ever can translate the books of law so the Chinese judge can really understand what they say? Including the ultra fine print?
QuoteCould you provide some cultural background in regards to Matthew 5:38-41, and enlighten me with your perfected wisdom?
Only the Big Three have perfected wisdom.
Like always there are disagreements. The left hand was used for not so honorable things like wiping your b***. To slap on the right cheek the left hand was used. Some say Jesus turning the other cheek wasn't an act of pacifism but a challenge to use the right hand.
QuoteMaybe even on some other things too, like that sheep and goat dichotomy?
Well, in the OT we read goats were sacrificial animals, unlike for example swine. So in God's eyes they are pure.
In the Bible we often read about a sparrow. That's just an assumption. It reads 'small bird' which has a good possibility being a sparrow but Scripture doesn't say so.
Likewise with the sheep and goats.
A rather weak, but interesting, study is, that goat can be understood as a young sheep. A sheep that needs training. Training = correction.
A little more about goats:
I wonder part of the answer is in the Greek words for goat and sheep (mat 25:33)
GOAT
eriphion
Thayer Definition:
1) a kid, a young goat
SHEEP
probaton
Thayer Definition:
1) any four footed, tame animal accustomed to graze, small cattle
1a) a sheep, and so always in the NT
While the translator very likely had a reason to translate as they did, lets explore another translations.
Sheep can just as well be translated as goat which is small cattle.
Goat can be translated as a kid. A kid of what? kid sheep, kid goat.
So legitimate translations would be:
- Sheep and young sheep. -> Old sheep and young sheep.
- Goats and young goats. -> Old goats and young goats.
Old isn't about age but maturity in Christ. A babe in Christ is new Christian that can be 8 years old but just as well 88 years old.
So young points to the level of growth/education into Christ. The young ones/goats need more education.
Seems like the verse is about young and old (in Christ's teachings)
Matthew 25:33 And he will set, the sheep, indeed, on his right hand, but, the goats, on the left.
πρόβατον
probaton/sheep
Thayer Definition:
1) any four footed, tame animal accustomed to graze, small cattle
1a) a sheep, and so always in the NT <==== Is that a fact or doctrine?
Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: probably from a presumed. derivative of G4260
Citing in TDNT: 6:689, 936πρόβατον
próbaton/sheep; gen. probátou, neut. noun from probaínō (G4260), to go before, walk ahead. Whatever walks forward. In the Ionic and Doric usages it was spoken of quadrupeds (in distinction from bipeds, and things flying, creeping, or swimming).
Generally, tá próbata were animals, but especially smaller animals such as sheep and goats (Mat 7:15, "in the dress of sheep" [a.t.]; Mat 9:36; Mat 10:16; Mat 12:11-12; Mat 18:12; Mar 6:34; Luk 15:4, Luk 15:6; Joh 2:14-15; Joh 10:1-4, Joh 10:12-13; Act 8:32; Rom 8:36; 1Pe 2:25; Rev 18:13; Sept.: Gen 12:16; Gen 13:5; Exo 12:3 ff.). In Attic and NT usage sheep are distinguished from goats (Mat 25:32-33). Figuratively of those under the care and watch of someone as sheep under a shepherd (Mat 10:6; Mat 15:24; Mat 26:31; Mar 14:27; Joh 10:7-8, Joh 10:11, Joh 10:15-16; Joh 21:16-17; Heb 13:20).
In some texts as in Joh 21:16-17 the word is found in its diminutive form, probátion, little sheep. This is to be distinguished from arníon (G721), lamb. Probátion was used as a term of endearment. Sheep, on account of their simplicity, mildness, inoffensiveness, patience and obedience, are used as emblems of believers in Christ (Joh 10:15-16, Joh 10:26-27 [cf. Mat 25:32-33; Heb 13:20]). Lost or straying sheep represent unconverted persons wandering in sin and error (Mat 10:6; Mat 15:24; Joh 10:26-27; 1Pe 2:25 [cf. Mat 9:36; Mar 6:34]).
Deriv.: probatikós (G4262), pertaining to sheep.
Ant.: ériphos (G2056), a goat; eríphion (G2055), a kid, small goat; trágos (G5131), he-goat.ἐρίφιον
eriphion/goat
Thayer Definition:
1) a kid, a young goat
Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G2056ἐρίφιον
eríphion/goat; gen. eriphíou, neut. noun, a diminutive of ériphos (G2056), a goat. A kid, young goat (Mat 25:33). The words ériphos, a young goat, and the diminutive eríphion, appear in the picture of the last judgment where they are contrasted with sheep (próbata [G4263]). The point of contrast lies in the color rather than the character of the animals, the sheep being pure white while the goats are mostly covered with long black hair. In Son 4:1, the locks of the beloved are compared to "a flock of goats, that appear from Mount Gilead." The Son of Man shall separate all the nations "as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats" (Mat 25:32), which simile is quite true to pastoral life. Sheep and goats pasture together, but never trespass on each other's domains; they are kept together but they do not mix; they may be seen to enter the fold in company, but once inside they are kept separate.
QuoteLastly, did you like the way I perfected your old quote above? I find you have really good things to say, but suffer from some pitiful spelling and grammar mistakes.
Well, thanks, I think :Chinscratch:
Quote from: MusicLover123 on January 27, 2018, 02:48:23 AM
Yeah, I understand you. I grew up with a more Arminian background, though even then we did not really talk in depth about theological things. Then, about 2-3 years ago, I found out about that, and then became a zombie toward unbelievers after much(little?) thought, converted to "Calvinism." Honestly, at the time, I did not do it mainly because of my own studies, but more so because of other man's doctrines and opinions that are often spouted. Though, I think God brought me through that movement, to give me more of an understanding of some key subjects. Like Election, God's will vs man's, the Sovereignty of God, and other things. Personally, I also think Calvinists would have an easier time jumping to Universalism than Arminians would. Mainly because of they already believe in the Sovereignty of God, but just do not usually make that jump between saving a few and saving all. Or that God loves everyone.
I think both are equally right/wrong. Or more exact, incomplete.
The Armenians are right that salvation is open for everyone and not just a small percentage. But they ignore Scripture truly speaks about elect.
Calvinists are right there is an elect. But they don't understand what election really is.
I think UR largely blends those believes and adds a little.
Armenians believe salvation is open for 100% of humanity if they accept Jesus. The final score could be anything between 0-100%
Calvinists believe only those elected by God are saved, no matter how hard the non elect try. The final score is something like 5-10%.
UR aligns with Armenian teaching but firmly sets the score at 100%.
The Calvinist part of UR isn't as outspoken. At least not what I've read. Anyway as I wrote earlier I believe the elect are part of the 100% group.
For some/many that may feel wrong because believing is believing, saved is saved. No underdogs in His glorious Kingdom. But still Jesus used words like "the least in heaven". We see people being resurrected at His return and they get the privilege to rule with Him; while the sheep and goats are resurrected 1000 years later, not having the privilege of ruling. That clearly shows some sort of difference.
So elect (also) are those who have the privilege of having an active role in the millennium reign.
Not claiming perfection in my theory. Likely it needs some fine tuning. But if you forgive me small flaws you will see my theory embraces all Scripture and doesn't ignore parts of it.
I believe in 100% salvation. I believe in extra glory for the elect. I believe the church is the body of Christ. I believe Christ has a bride. I believe God can and will stomp out sin; depending on how cooperative the person is that can range from a slap on the wrist to the use of His size 20 army boots. I do believe the Lake of Fire is real but it looks far different from what the vast majority thinks it looks like.
Once again, I'm not claiming perfection of my view, but I do claim that the view that has to explain away least Scripture is likely closest to the full truth.
Good questions ML and I see so much of myself in the asking of questions... and also ... in the understandings of Whitewings
In what I have come to understand, ..... the greatest outcome, whether it be 100% or "all in all" which are both the same truth seen in different ways (as a number or words) ..... the greatest outcome has to become the foundation upon which everything else has to line up with (be built), and when we "have faith" (being convinced) IN that greatest outcome, God then begins to align everything else in Scripture to that lofty outcome from that firm foundation in believing that outcome through faith ... constantly being reassured BY (that aligning of) Scripture THROUGH His Spirit which results in a "greater faith".
Our beginning of understanding (in the physical) and our end of understanding (in the Spiritual) always remains the same; remains constant, and when all Scripture lines up between these two points it becomes a perfectly straight line (path) and when all is said and done and "the mark" of "all in all" has been reached through God's works (work-man-ships/us), we can't even imagine what God has in store for us after that
This is just part of what I see in Day One of Genesis with the two terms "to be lofty" (translated as Heaven) and "to be firm" (translated as earth) ..... "all in all" is "to be lofty" (our Heaven) ... lofty being the greatest outcome
AND
"all in all" is also "to be firm" (our earth), our foundation .... firm (foundation) also being the greatest outcome .....
The words translated as Heaven and earth are a starting point of understanding, because everything God says is "lofty" and is also "firm" and everything He does is "lofty" and is also "firm" in which when we move into Day Two we can easily discern what is from above and what is from below and then when we move into Day Three "the dry appears" and what I see in that is "a dry understanding of death" ...... a dry understanding of death is seeing it only as an end, but by the renewing of the mind, death is no longer an end ... it becomes just a point of transference into Life .... it no longer has a sting
my :2c:
:2c:goat...Azazel'sgoat...a demon .a goatcanbe flesh..the Lord'sgoat[lot] accepted onHis alter...man's flesh consumed..andhisspirit
rising into heaven[just aswhenJesus become flesh/appearance of sin....andAzazels flesh/goat...a spirit hath not fleshandblood as ye
behold I have. scapegoats inthe at-one-ment of God...provide excuses for men's sin....decieved the entire inhabited earth.....
spiritual/perception blindness.how every one ends up in the ditch.[Father forgive them they knownot what they do]
goat shaped demons in the wilderness/wicked generation that perished in the wilderness of Sin..during the great exodus/deliverance
intothe promisedLand[heavenlyinheritance.]Baalworsip/goldcalf/doctrines ofdemons/flesh ofbirds[unclean spirits/cage ofunclean
birds/Babylon]eaten...vessels for clean and unclean purposes[flesh/goats]by lot.andGod's lot must be delivered before sodomburns.
Isaac's birth contempary with God coming down in man's flesh to see ifwhat was being reported was true.Sarah/Jerusalem Above.
Judas goats lead sheep toslaughter/satan entered Judas/as well as off spring of viper class of religious leaders in his day.
spirit in man is sheep...[good] evil spirit in man'sflesh is a Judas goat leading him to death.[he sits inthe templeofGod[your
body]andshows himself that heisgod]he who destroys God's temple,God will destroy.because man spirit is teachable/sheep..itcan
be mislead/decieved/have it's hoofs torn off and skinned/andbecome lost/wander...especiallyby falseshepherds who manifest
as messengers of light[satan transforms himself as a messenger oflight]therefore a little d-evil[liar] can spoil much good.
look! a two horned like a lamb that spake as a dragon[power and principality inhigh place]
Zealforthe Lord's House consumed Jesus..and in the consummation He throws out other robber and thief spirits..that come tokill/rob
anddestroy in the household of God.[all that camebefore mewere robbers andthieves.]
atonement...twolot's..the Lord's and Azazels..one vessel for clean use and one vessel [flesh]for unclean use..
from now on call no man unclean...or having a portion inthe LOF..for the Lord will seperate the sheepfrom the goats.
QuoteI think both are equally right/wrong. Or more exact, incomplete.
The Armenians are right that salvation is open for everyone and not just a small percentage. But they ignore Scripture truly speaks about elect.
Calvinists are right there is an elect. But they don't understand what election really is.
I think UR largely blends those believes and adds a little.
Armenians believe salvation is open for 100% of humanity if they accept Jesus. The final score could be anything between 0-100%
Calvinists believe only those elected by God are saved, no matter how hard the non elect try. The final score is something like 5-10%.
UR aligns with Armenian teaching but firmly sets the score at 100%.
What I have come to realize is, is that
The True Gospel uses what already has been given to us. It is not a matter of adding to what is there, subtracting or changing what is already present. Of course, then comes the matter of interpreting what is there. :)
QuoteOnly the Big Three have perfected wisdom.
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? Or the big 3 here at TM?
QuoteOld isn't about age but maturity in Christ. A babe in Christ is new Christian that can be 8 years old but just as well 88 years old.
Right. Like, I bet there are 9 month old's that are more wise than you! :laughing7:
Jugghead's quote comes to mind here:
"Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding"
In the same manner, I would like to add...
"Knowledge is not measured by moments of time, but moments of efficiency."
Good analyses as well. I think the modern usage of sheep and goats is one big caricature, and not just pertaining to Church usage, but internet culture as well.
...sheep are docile..? And goats butt..? Mentioning "internet" made me think of that! And a conclusion I've come to is usually the 'debater' with less leg to stand on is usually the more bullying.. Or this would be one reason anyway..
:Chinscratch: And sheep and goats as Jesus referred to them, concerns 'latter days' when He returns, He separates them..
It's great to be able to go on the world wide web and discuss all manner of doctrine with many others of the household of God.
But when He comes, will He find us teaching "believe in Jesus" or will He find us beating one another? Will He find faith on the Earth?
The most insidious thread having weaved its way into the fray, is the thought that if one disagrees with another's doctrine, they are not part of the household of the Lord. (Christian Universalism is labeled as heretic and dangerous. :sigh: I'm so happy to know the 'end' of the story! :HeartThrob: :cloud9: )
When Jesus, prayed - let them be one as the Father and He are one. And the scripture says the fruit of the flesh (imperfect carnal character) includes such things as sects, party sentiment, factions.
We all should always remember to rightly divide our zeal for Truth, and the spirit of competition, which of course, competition, is of that lower flawed and carnal character. Truth needs no one's defense. Our attitude should be, say it and shake the dust..
Whenever we spy an insidious thread slithering its way amongst us we should immediately pierce it in its tracks with the sharp double edged sWord of Truth. (Pierce it with love.)
"Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. He who does not love does not know God, for God is love" - as we know, said by the Apostle John (1 Jn 4:7,8).
Such words will likely not convince one who does not love, but perhaps such words may prevent one who does love from falling into the same snare!
There is definitely a lot of butting aside and pushing around out there on the www! And I'm talking about in Christian circles :faint: As Paul said "brethren! it ought not to be!"
Lesson? better to be a sheep than a goat.. goat like behavior may get someone somewhere now.. but that's very temporary.. Newsflash to some brethren on the www? Bullying does not make something untrue to be any more true. If someone is quoting scripture, especially NT, I think it's likely safe to assume they are a genuine believer.. Not to say there are no wolves in sheep's clothing :doh:
Alright, I finally have a better word to use, so maybe this will describe my question better:
Is ecstasy a way of experiencing God? Not just drug caused either. I've heard that some take drugs, and feel as much profound feelings as those who have Spiritual experiences, but only the first time. And their life falls apart as a result.
I think I read a book about a monastic person, a woman, who used to talk about "ecstasy".. Teresa..? of Avila? Idk. Her story was very interesting. I think as believers we can feel a lot of joy. Which to me seems to come from peace.. maybe that peace that passeth understanding.. And Jesus said something about "that your joy may be full" the things He was telling them (and us/all) so their joy would be full.. (Jn.15:11; Jn.14-17?) ...As our guide into all truth, I think the Holy Spirit Of God imparts joy with that truth.. :dontknow: :gsmile: Truth makes me happy! His truth seems very profound to me.. and joyful like ripples in a pond.. like laughter..
I think it's He Himself that is joy! Great joy. Yes, I think great joy is ours! :thumbsup:
But! I think the adversary and world have counterfeits.. which you even mentioned some of.. I've heard of "ecstasy" in 'voodoo' ..but obviously the fruit would be far different..