I love George MacDonald, but I have a problem with what he says about salvation. Its like he puts up a barrier, saying that obedience is required for one to be in a relationship with God. Doesn't that go against what Paul said, that salvation is a free gift, and that things like obedience and the virtues he calls the fruit of the spirit come from walking in that grace?
This is very important to me; I am trying to find my way back to God, navigating not only doubt about Christianity or even God himself, but the character of God that most Christianity has presented.
GM rejects what he calls "plans of salvation", and I admit I am sympathetic here. It does seem "legalistic" to present God as a merchant who needs "payment" or a judge who requires someone to do time. Yet I feel like GM takes it too far in the other direction, taking away the power of grace in his call for obedience and repentance. It seems like GM is contra Paul; Paul who says "rest in grace and you will be good" vs GM who says "strive to be good and God will make you good".
Am I making any sense here? I would appreciate any thoughts on this.
QuoteI love George MacDonald, but I have a problem with what he says about salvation. Its like he puts up a barrier, saying that obedience is required for one to be in a relationship with God. Doesn't that go against what Paul said, that salvation is a free gift, and that things like obedience and the virtues he calls the fruit of the spirit come from walking in that grace?
The gift is eternal life. Jesus took care of that. There is nothing you should/can do to recieve that gift.
But when/how do you recieve that gift?
When harvested as Barley? (first resurrection)
When harvested as Wheat?
When harvested as Grapes?
http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/is-this-god's-plan/msg136049/#msg136049
To be part of the first harvest requires you to be an obedient Christian. A socalled Overcomer. That's a paradox for me because Overcomers need obviously to overcome something. But elsewhere the Bible writes mankind can do nothing good without God. Imo overcoming is part of that. So if God does all the work the overcomers is nothing more than a passive lump of clay in the Potter's hands.....????
QuoteGM rejects what he calls "plans of salvation",
It's usually called a plan (also by me) but God doesn't make plans. Plans are for humans. I planned to win the lottery last year. But I didn't win. God deals with facts. Not plans or hopes.
QuoteIt does seem "legalistic" to present God as a merchant who needs "payment" or a judge who requires someone to do time.
I think GM totally right about that.
The OT teaches over and over there is no forgiveness without shedding blood. Sin is debt to be paid. The the last words of a very famous guy, that shed His blood on the cross, were "Paid in full".
QuoteI think GM totally right about that.
Really? I don't get that GM agrees with penal substitionary atonement.
T
Quotehe OT teaches over and over there is no forgiveness without shedding blood. Sin is debt to be paid. The the last words of a very famous guy, that shed His blood on the cross, were "Paid in full".
Maybe the truth is in the middle. Maybe its not so much that God needs a pound of flesh, but rather He suffers in the same way a parent who loves and continually forgives their child suffers. But I don't know. I do like the part where its "paid in full". At least initially that gives one confidence to approach God. But it still seems legalistic, as if our relationship with God is like that of customer/merchant or judge/defendant.
It's just my view NF.
Hopefully others post their views too.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 07, 2012, 09:34:26 PM
It's just my view NF.
Hopefully others post their views too.
I might be over-thinking this thing. Funny, just a short time ago I came across this quote from GM:
"If Jesus suffered for men, it was because his Father suffers for men."
I wonder if the problem with the way atonement is often presented is that its presented outside the context of a loving God/Father; that is God is made to look detached from the whole thing.
I think it's exactly that. Dettached.
People only see the blood. But seem to overlook the intentions of the blood.
It makes me think of the TV serie called Oz.
A prison with gangs. One of those gangs was a group of Nazi's who studied the Bible and obvious liked Jesus.
Then a rather funny scene followed. Someone points out Jesus didn't look like the ideal Arier. Even worse He was a Jew. :-)
Hi nightflight! Obedience is not required to earn God's love. It IS required to be an overcomer. An overcomer is simply one who dies to self so that Christ overcomes sin in them. So WW was right when he said:
QuoteTo be part of the first harvest requires you to be an obedient Christian. A socalled Overcomer. That's a paradox for me because Overcomers need obviously to overcome something. But elsewhere the Bible writes mankind can do nothing good without God. Imo overcoming is part of that.
Except that we aren't passive lumps of clay in the potter's hands. We have to die willingly so that He can live and overcome in us. As we press in to know Him and His will and submit to that rather than our own selfish wills, He cleanses us and frees us from our sinful selves. Dying isn't easy but it's very freeing and the more "you" die and He lives in you, the more you realize how much in bondage you really were, and the more you can't wait to keep dying til the old man in you is completely dead lol!! It really is a paradox - the more "we" die, the more ourselves we become. :cloud9:
Salvation IS a free gift, but what is salvation? Salvation is being set free, right? Set free from what? Sin and death! This is attainable NOW as we seek the Lord and follow His will and submit to it and He cleanses us from sin and spiritual death.
His heart IS that of a tender Father. Think of a loving Father who hates to see His children hurting. Sin hurts us. But so many of us are still so much in the babe phase of our spiritual walk that we can't even see that. When my children have to get needles or other painful medical procedures done I dread it and often get teary eyed, yet if I were to deny them of those things they would be much worse off and in much more pain than if they didn't. Same sort of deal with cleansing us from sin. He hates to see us suffer and only does what is necessary. Any pain or curse that we go through in life or afterwards are actually BLESSINGS, intended for our healing and for our good. I know, it's almost impossible to believe sometimes... but when it's all over and done with we will see. He really is good. And He really is love.
:HeartThrob:
I was a big fan of the rock group Petra this is my favorite lyric from one of their songs:
"You say you've walked 10,000 miles away? Don't you know it's only one step back.?"
You've realized you were wrong. Admitting it to God is all it takes. He never stops loving you.
It's just the relationship suffers.
And don't let anyone kid you, Everyone of us sins on a daily basis either in thought, word, deed, or not doing a deed.
Quote from: ded2daworld on July 24, 2012, 12:11:15 AM
I was a big fan of the rock group Petra this is my favorite lyric from one of their songs:
"You say you've walked 10,000 miles away? Don't you know it's only one step back.?"
You've realized you were wrong. Admitting it to God is all it takes. He never stops loving you.
It's just the relationship suffers.
And don't let anyone kid you, Everyone of us sins on a daily basis either in thought, word, deed, or not doing a deed.
:2thumbs:
He saves us when it's our turn (I Cor. 15:23) by giving us the faith to believe in Him as our Savior, who's death on the cross and resurrection from the dead is (more than) adequate to redeem us. Some don't grow much beyond that, stay babes in Christ, rather than "grow in grace and knowledge" 2 Peter 3:18.
For others, He brings into maturity, as they have an "advanced" purpose. I believe a big part of this is;
Looking to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith. Hebrews 12:2 His grace is sufficient, and as we look to Him (trust, surrender) He matures us.
What makes sense to me is what I posted in the lounge: salvation has two parts