In several of my posts I have stated that I believe, at least to this point, that Gen. 1,2,3,4 are allegories.
I know that that kind of reasoning brings conflict. My faith is not weakened in anyway should Genesis be an allegory or should it be a real earthy history.
I believe that Noah's ark is Christ, I know that the Ark of the Covenant is Christ, I know that the wilderness experience is a shadow and type, all the OT is shadow and type.
The history of the Hebrews of the old testament is true I have no doubt, but I do not believe the "history of the Hebrews(Jews)" is what the Word of God wants, the believer to retrieve from His Word. It is important to understand what God wants us to know and I do not believe it is the history of a people to be the apex to our understanding. Jesus said Joh 4:23 But a time is coming--nay, has already come--when the true worshippers will worship the Father with true spiritual worship; for indeed the Father desires such worshippers.
Joh 4:24 God is Spirit; and those who worship Him must bring Him true spiritual worship."
And Joh 6:63 It is the spirit which gives Life. The flesh confers no benefit whatever. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and are Life.
This tells me that we as saints and believers need glean the spiritual understanding that is hidden in the OT rather than debate the "time and times" of the "things" of the OT and Genesis.
What say you? (I stole that from O'Riely :laughing7:)
Growing up, I was taught that the earth was created in 6 days.
Then I had to ignore was I was taught at school about evolution, and the earth being billions years old and dinosaurs. These were a big ploy builtby thousands of scientists to undermine God...
But a few years ago, I read a book from a french theologian that there were christian scientists who believed in a old earth creationism.
I then learned about the word day which could have the meaning of indetermined period of time.
I didn't really decide anything but I knew that from now on I wouldn't be caught in weird conversation with evolutionnist, I had answers which made sense to both of us.
So if there was really an Adam or if it is a story to explain what happened to the fisrt humans, the importance is in the spiritual symbolism.
Honestly, how many people have rejected christianity as a myth because of the talking serpent literalist argue existed.
It makes so much more sense in understand that it was Eve's flesh that seduced her, her carnal nature.
So yeah, without discarding the historical nature of the Bible, we have to read it with our spiritual understanding.
:2c:
I don't see hoe evolution is compatible with the word. If the earth is indeed older than 6000 years old and our interpretation is incorrect concerning the days, then to me that means that God created and formed the earth through his mighty power, who laid the foundations of the earth.
Job
38Then Yahweh answered Job out of the whirlwind, 2 "Who is this who darkens counsel
by words without knowledge? 3 Brace yourself like a man,
for I will question you, then you answer me!
4 "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Declare, if you have understanding. 5 Who determined its measures, if you know?
Or who stretched the line on it? 6 Whereupon were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone, 7 when the morning stars sang together,
and all the sons of God shouted for joy? 8 "Or who shut up the sea with doors,
when it broke forth from the womb, 9 when I made clouds its garment,
and wrapped it in thick darkness, 10 marked out for it my bound,
set bars and doors, 11 and said, 'Here you may come, but no further.
Here your proud waves shall be stayed?'
12 "Have you commanded the morning in your days,
and caused the dawn to know its place; 13 that it might take hold of the ends of the earth,
and shake the wicked out of it? 14 It is changed as clay under the seal,
and stands forth as a garment. 15 From the wicked, their light is withheld.
I think we have a hard time believing that God can create an entire earth in minutes or hours/days, maybe because life on earth is typically very slow, ie. we ask for healing, but instead of the instant healings of the gospel, we ususally get the long labarous healing of having to order our conduct, eat right etc and excercise, which takes years.
Quote from: Quaesitor on September 10, 2010, 06:49:06 PM
Growing up, I was taught that the earth was created in 6 days.
Then I had to ignore was I was taught at school about evolution, and the earth being billions years old and dinosaurs. These were a big ploy builtby thousands of scientists to undermine God...
So you flunked a lot of tests..... :winkgrin:
QuoteBut a few years ago, I read a book from a french theologian that there were christian scientists who believed in a old earth creationism.
I then learned about the word day which could have the meaning of indetermined period of time.
Same for Jews.
S
Quoteo if there was really an Adam or if it is a story to explain what happened to the fisrt humans, the importance is in the spiritual symbolism.
Surely the goal of the Bible is to teach spiritual things. But
without lies of any sort. If Adam died at 900 it is 900. The rivers in Eden did exist. They are not made up to easily explain a spiritual concept.
QuoteHonestly, how many people have rejected christianity as a myth because of the talking serpent literalist argue existed.
It makes so much more sense in understand that it was Eve's flesh that seduced her, her carnal nature.
The Hebrew word for snake is very similar to that of enchanter/wizard. Both in meaning as is writing. IIRC the words are indentical with teh exception of one tiny accent mark that may be unreadble in the oldest copies.
ָנָחשׁ
nāḥāš: A masculine noun meaning snake. It is used to refer to an actual serpent (Exo 4:3; Num 21:6; Deu 8:15; Ecc 10:8; Amo 5:19); or an image of one (Num 21:9), but it is also used figuratively. Some of these symbolic uses include the tempter (Gen 3:1-2, Gen 3:4, Gen 3:13-14); the tribe of Dan (Gen 49:17); wicked rulers (Psa 58:4 [5]); and enemies (Isa 14:29; Jer 8:17; Jer 46:22).
:2c: for both of you :winkgrin:
Quote from: thinktank on September 10, 2010, 07:32:56 PM
I don't see hoe evolution is compatible with the word. If the earth is indeed older than 6000 years old and our interpretation is incorrect concerning the days, then to me that means that God created and formed the earth through his mighty power, who laid the foundations of the earth.
TT, for me personally an old earth doesn't take away teh slightest bit of God's handiwork.
QuoteJob<snip>
Those verses just inform us of what God did. But no timescale is given. So for me it neither proves or refutes YEC and/or OED.
QuoteI think we have a hard time believing that God can create an entire earth in minutes or hours/days, maybe because life on earth is typically very slow, ie. we ask for healing, but instead of the instant healings of the gospel, we ususally get the long labarous healing of having to order our conduct, eat right etc and excercise, which takes years.
For an infinitly powerful God 15 seconds is just as easy as doing it in 15 billion years.
The question is what does the Bible tell us?
But I think we are getting off-topic because if Micah wanted to discuss this he just as well can take a look in teh other science thread.
Micah?
Those verses prove though that when God created the earth the morning stars shouted for joy. If indeed there was cave man or dinosaurs around this time, who lived in a world of bloodshed and death, then how can the morning stars be shouting for joy.
The scriptures declare that death came through Adam, so how could death exist prior to Adam's transgression?
According to some, death existed before Adam's sin, this means that God being perfect created human beings who are subject to death, before sin even entered the door. Where is the confidence in a God that creates a creation that is subject to death?
Death which is the most feared and painfull event in human existence, where is the joy in death?
The bones of so called neathandral man says that death entered the world before sin.
If indeed there was death before sin, then the only type of death acceptable would be those of animals and insects, so if nethandral man existed, he would not be made in the image of God but rather they would be similar to a gorilla and be some kind of animal. But if this is true then where in scripture are these animals created? There is none to be found, unless someone knows different?
Quote from: thinktank on September 10, 2010, 07:32:56 PM
I don't see hoe evolution is compatible with the word. If the earth is indeed older than 6000 years old and our interpretation is incorrect concerning the days, then to me that means that God created and formed the earth through his mighty power, who laid the foundations of the earth.
Job
38Then Yahweh answered Job out of the whirlwind, 2 "Who is this who darkens counsel
by words without knowledge? 3 Brace yourself like a man,
for I will question you, then you answer me!
4 "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Declare, if you have understanding. 5 Who determined its measures, if you know?
Or who stretched the line on it? 6 Whereupon were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone, 7 when the morning stars sang together,
and all the sons of God shouted for joy? 8 "Or who shut up the sea with doors,
when it broke forth from the womb, 9 when I made clouds its garment,
and wrapped it in thick darkness, 10 marked out for it my bound,
set bars and doors, 11 and said, 'Here you may come, but no further.
Here your proud waves shall be stayed?'
12 "Have you commanded the morning in your days,
and caused the dawn to know its place; 13 that it might take hold of the ends of the earth,
and shake the wicked out of it? 14 It is changed as clay under the seal,
and stands forth as a garment. 15 From the wicked, their light is withheld.
I think we have a hard time believing that God can create an entire earth in minutes or hours/days, maybe because life on earth is typically very slow, ie. we ask for healing, but instead of the instant healings of the gospel, we ususally get the long labarous healing of having to order our conduct, eat right etc and excercise, which takes years.
This is often the slippery slope we get into with religiousd thought. It may be asserted that it reduces Gods power if we believe that he created the earth in some manner like we can find in scientific explanations. But in reality if we learn how something was formed based upon our perceptions it has nothing to do with thinking less about God it is learning what happened when he did it.
The slippery slope then carries over to everyday life. For instance, if you have a savings account it can be asserted that you do not trust God to take care of your needs, the excuse that it is wise to save money is just an expression to justify a lack of faith and are relying on an institution of men rather than God to help you.
Some actually practice this in a way and do not go to doctors but in my perspective all that is nonsense.
I don't care if evolution is true, I go to doctors and when I can I save my money, it detracts nothing from God or my walk.
Touching on the point of the importance of "Spiritual symbolism", we need to be careful when it comes to the word, and how we look at it.
The Word came in the flesh afterall, the written word is not all that different at the root of things.
While there is indeed a spiritual - a Spirit, deeper meaning, real-er, more significant aspect, and being to the Bible, and its passages...We should not ignore its physical "flesh" either, because it is just as real as the spirit of it, though it is perhaps, only a vessel, or covering for the spiritual truths manifesting behind it.
I would suggest looking at the Bible through that sort of idea, instead of trying to "divide" the spiritual from the physical, or the historical from the allegorical.
There is a reason why it is a "Living Book".
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 10, 2010, 07:49:59 PM
Quote from: thinktank on September 10, 2010, 07:32:56 PM
I don't see hoe evolution is compatible with the word. If the earth is indeed older than 6000 years old and our interpretation is incorrect concerning the days, then to me that means that God created and formed the earth through his mighty power, who laid the foundations of the earth.
TT, for me personally an old earth doesn't take away teh slightest bit of God's handiwork.
QuoteJob<snip>
Those verses just inform us of what God did. But no timescale is given. So for me it neither proves or refutes YEC and/or OED.
QuoteI think we have a hard time believing that God can create an entire earth in minutes or hours/days, maybe because life on earth is typically very slow, ie. we ask for healing, but instead of the instant healings of the gospel, we ususally get the long labarous healing of having to order our conduct, eat right etc and excercise, which takes years.
For an infinitly powerful God 15 seconds is just as easy as doing it in 15 billion years.
The question is what does the Bible tell us?
But I think we are getting off-topic because if Micah wanted to discuss this he just as well can take a look in teh other science thread.
Micah?
You have that correct :thumbsup:
I assume you mean my last remark/question.
I'll try to behave :winkgrin:
ThinkTank Reply#5 see the science thread there all your questions are answered.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 10, 2010, 05:19:03 AMIn several of my posts I have stated that I believe, at least to this point, that Gen. 1,2,3,4 are allegories.
It's a question that can't be answered without science I think.
Say we can prove 100% certain the universe is 15 billion years old and it's also a proven fact the Bible really means 6000 normal years.
In that case the Bible is wrong or Genesis is an allegory. Personally I think Genesis is literal but it at least 1 layer below the surface.
Basisly I believe the same for every book/chapther. Perhaps with the exception of Revelation.
QuoteI believe that Noah's ark is Christ, I know that the Ark of the Covenant is Christ,
I think better would be "is also Christ"
That box really existed/exits. That box was a shadow of Jesus. But in a way it's not Jesus what it's about but what He 'brings us"
The Bible is no linear book. As this forum shows I should add. We start about Genesis and 3 posts later a vers from Luke is discussed as proof.
So if there is a simple answer to a question the answer is simply wrong :winkgrin:
I think allorgies are often abused. When we don't understand something we call it an allorgy. Or even worse we call something an allorgy so that we can turn and twist it into something that fits our doctrine. Slippery slope if you ask me...
I never said anything about evolution or about Adam being real or not I said it was of lesser importance than the spiritual symbolism for mankind today.
What is itching us in our world today that we always want to have the right answers?
Can't we just accept that we do not know everything and that on many subjects we're left with hypothetic theories.
The Bible uses a figurative language to speak of a time where only God can say what happened with certitude and He by His Word decided to use that language and not a scientifical one because that's we needed.
So when an evolutionist friend asks about the creation, I'm not left with a believe this or die answer. God created everything. Was it by a Big Bang? Why not, who are we to say it wasn't and who are the scientists to say it was, the big bang is compatible with the fact that God created everything. God spoke and there it was bang!
The "there is no-evolution fight" is a blatant lost of time and energy when there are millions of people dying of hunger, thirst, sickness or downright violence.
Removed by Micah to some other post. :grin:
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 10, 2010, 05:19:03 AM
In several of my posts I have stated that I believe, at least to this point, that Gen. 1,2,3,4 are allegories.
I know that that kind of reasoning brings conflict. My faith is not weakened in anyway should Genesis be an allegory or should it be a real earthy history.
I believe that Noah's ark is Christ, I know that the Ark of the Covenant is Christ, I know that the wilderness experience is a shadow and type, all the OT is shadow and type.
The history of the Hebrews of the old testament is true I have no doubt, but I do not believe the "history of the Hebrews(Jews)" is what the Word of God wants, the believer to retrieve from His Word. It is important to understand what God wants us to know and I do not believe it is the history of a people to be the apex to our understanding. Jesus said Joh 4:23 But a time is coming--nay, has already come--when the true worshippers will worship the Father with true spiritual worship; for indeed the Father desires such worshippers.
Joh 4:24 God is Spirit; and those who worship Him must bring Him true spiritual worship."
And Joh 6:63 It is the spirit which gives Life. The flesh confers no benefit whatever. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and are Life.
This tells me that we as saints and believers need glean the spiritual understanding that is hidden in the OT rather than debate the "time and times" of the "things" of the OT and Genesis.
What say you? (I stole that from O'Riely :laughing7:)
Excellent post Micah.
On a note for the Big Bang; it does say after all that God stretched the heavens like a tent.
Quite an...artistic way of putting it? Perhaps we're looking for the wrong word with "Allegory", and variations. Why not try the idea of "Artistically described"?
Quote from: thinktank on September 10, 2010, 08:08:29 PM
Those verses prove though that when God created the earth the morning stars shouted for joy. If indeed there was cave man or dinosaurs around this time, who lived in a world of bloodshed and death, then how can the morning stars be shouting for joy.
The scriptures declare that death came through Adam, so how could death exist prior to Adam's transgression?
According to some, death existed before Adam's sin, this means that God being perfect created human beings who are subject to death, before sin even entered the door. Where is the confidence in a God that creates a creation that is subject to death?
Death which is the most feared and painfull event in human existence, where is the joy in death?
The bones of so called neathandral man says that death entered the world before sin.
If indeed there was death before sin, then the only type of death acceptable would be those of animals and insects, so if nethandral man existed, he would not be made in the image of God but rather they would be similar to a gorilla and be some kind of animal. But if this is true then where in scripture are these animals created? There is none to be found, unless someone knows different?
Again, this is man trying to reason out God's thinking. There is purpose even unto death. In order for you to believe what you believe then you must ignore scientific findings. If you are comfortable with that then so be it. With that said, I truly believe the study of God's handiwork is significant in a fuller understanding of scripture. We are now able to be blown away by the breath taking complexity of a living cell, DNA etc. I see the hand of our loving Father all over it. In my sense of awe I find worship. For me, science has brought me closer to my maker.
When a potter places a lump of clay on the potters wheel, it looks nothing like the vase he is creating. As he moves his hands along the surface it slowly takes shape and begins to look like a vase. It's not functional, it's not a complete vase but it's moving along. Then at the end, the clay has taken shape and looks and functions like a vase. It's now a vase. It can be used. It's the potter's handiwork...maybe even his masterpiece. In the same way, man was formed slowly through time on the potters wheel. Early man, was not in God's image. He wasn't complete...slowly taking shape overtime. If Adam was indeed a real man (which I am not sure he was) then he was the first man God considered complete....covenant man....in God's image.
Quote from: Lefein on September 10, 2010, 10:00:28 PM
On a note for the Big Bang; it does say after all that God stretched the heavens like a tent.
Quite an...artistic way of putting it? Perhaps we're looking for the wrong word with "Allegory", and variations. Why not try the idea of "Artistically described"?
Yes, it does. And your point is well taken.
Again, this is man trying to reason out God's thinking.
I'm using scriptures to support my hypothesis, but yet you turn to the science gods and call it Gods thinking?
There is purpose even unto death.
Yes in todays covenant, for God reveals his love through death. But where is the love of God when God decided to create a sub human species and subject that species to suffering, pain and death?
In order for you to believe what you believe then you must ignore scientific findings. If you are comfortable with that then so be it.
I only ignore some scientific findings that change just about every year, swaying back and forth with no stability, how can I put my faith in scientific findings that waiver back and forth as the sea.
With that said, I truly believe the study of God's handiwork is significant in a fuller understanding of scripture. We are now able to be blown away by the breath taking complexity of a living cell, DNA etc. I see the hand of our loving Father all over it. In my sense of awe I find worship. For me, science has brought me closer to my maker
Me to, but not the theory of evolution over millions of years, shows that God subjected creation through millions of years of suffering? without hope? where is the prophecy that indicates that Adam will be created to put an end to death? The scriptures declare that it is the second Adam , the lord from heaven that puts an end to death, not the first Adam, for death was not at that time in force.
When a potter places a lump of clay on the potters wheel, it looks nothing like the vase he is creating. As he moves his hands along the surface it slowly takes shape and begins to look like a vase. It's not functional, it's not a complete vase but it's moving along. Then at the end, the clay has taken shape and looks and functions like a vase. It's now a vase. It can be used. It's the potter's handiwork...maybe even his masterpiece. In the same way, man was formed slowly through time on the potters wheel. Early man, was not in God's image. He wasn't complete...slowly taking shape overtime. If Adam was indeed a real man (which I am not sure he was) then he was the first man God considered complete....covenant man....in God's image
So at what point did man evolve enough to become worthy enough to be called Adam in his image.
!000 years, a million years? but evolution occurs over millions of years, so that means change is painfully slow. So at what point did man change enough to be called Adam made in his image.
My point is that evolution is an unstable theory that cannot be reconcilled to the scriptures according to our current understanding. Perhaps our understanding of the scriptures is incorrect, but the same can be applied to the theory of evolution.
Let the truth of the creator of heaven and earth be shed upon this topic in his name.
Topic split from here MERGED into;
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8616.msg103515#msg103515
Quote micah, opening post of this thread;
In several of my posts I have stated that I believe, at least to this point, that Gen. 1,2,3,4 are allegories.
I know that that kind of reasoning brings conflict. My faith is not weakened in anyway should Genesis be an allegory or should it be a real earthy history.
I believe that Noah's ark is Christ, I know that the Ark of the Covenant is Christ, I know that the wilderness experience is a shadow and type, all the OT is shadow and type.
The history of the Hebrews of the old testament is true I have no doubt, but I do not believe the "history of the Hebrews(Jews)" is what the Word of God wants, the believer to retrieve from His Word. It is important to understand what God wants us to know and I do not believe it is the history of a people to be the apex to our understanding. Jesus said Joh 4:23 But a time is coming--nay, has already come--when the true worshippers will worship the Father with true spiritual worship; for indeed the Father desires such worshippers.
Joh 4:24 God is Spirit; and those who worship Him must bring Him true spiritual worship."
And Joh 6:63 It is the spirit which gives Life. The flesh confers no benefit whatever. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and are Life.
This tells me that we as saints and believers need glean the spiritual understanding that is hidden in the OT rather than debate the "time and times" of the "things" of the OT and Genesis.
Wow TT...I can't debate with someone too stubborn to look at the evidence.
I admit that I need to update my knowledge on scientific findings, but that will come in time I hope but there is so much out there it is impossible to research all of it, especially for the average folk out there. So when a person does not have the time to have a degree in evolution science, then he must either accept what the scholars have done at their word or he can look to the scriptures and find truth from there. If one cannot find the truth of creation from the scriptures, then why are we wasting our time with this phony book calling it Gods word, when in reality it is half of Gods word. I believe the word is the inspired word of God so why are you disgruntled at me for looking to the scriptures for the truth?
That I can respect. I do not expect everyone to be a science expert. I will say this however. If you are not well versed in the sciences it's best to stay out of debate that will involve science. If you believe the earth is 6000 years old then you should know why you believe it and be able to defend it...if you decide to debate oecs.
6000 year old earth grin When Chinese civilization is 7,500-8000 years old as acknowledged by their own cultural website? No, sorry I can't imagine ever accepting the pseudoscience that backs YEC claims.
I can accept the earth is older than 6000 years old, for dates and times are not entirely accurate. But there's a big jump between a 8000 year old earth and a 6 million year old earth.
Cool. But, I thought when you trace back Bible lineage it comes out to 6000 years right? How can you compromise on what you believe to be Biblical truth?
And yes, I will take offense to anyone claiming that I am an idolator. Isn't that what you basically called me? This is why I have stayed away from these types of communities. I didn't think I would find it here. But, there have been some people here who do indeed like to puff their chest and claim someone else is of satan, a weak Christian, an idolator etc. It gets old.
It does get old, but welcome to Christianity my friend
In my view you are my christian brother, as long as you hold onto the saviour, if not then I hope that I will treat you well within reason, but if you mess with me, let's dance .
So, you can continue to believe what you wish and stubbornly hang onto your interpretations of Genesis. Me? I won't bury my head in the sand and ignore the facts before me. I will look at the clues, I will take new evidence into consideration. I am willing to rework previous thoughts I have had on scripture in light of new evidence.
Then I wish you well in your pursuit of truth. Do you wish me well too?
Absolutely.
While you might want to demonize those of academia...there are many of us who are Christ loving people.
I don't dispute that, but it is ineivatable that in your education you will spend a great deal of time with unbelivers, who operate at the academic level who care not for the things of God. Do you agree with this?
Do you honestly think that academia is filled with spirit filled people?
The whole system is geared towards filling the brain with knowledge and sometimes that knowledge leads to confusion and cuts off the heart from entering. I don't know where you were educated but what I have heard is that the system is designed to limit creativity and intution as much as possible and give precedence to filling the mind with facts, whether it is intentional or not the system is based on a greek way of learning.
I think that there are many Christ lovers in academia...yes. But, I graduated from a Christian college and had Christian science teachers. These men no doubt loved the Lord as I do. But, asking us to accept your interpretation of scripture in the face of clear evidence that tells us that its wrong is the definition of insanity.
Similar to people who insist the earth is flat you mean?
But the scripture can prove the earth is round. To me whether the earth is 6000 years old or 12 thousand years old it still is a young earth. But if the earth is indeed millions of years old, then I do not see that it has to have creation upon it until the creation of Adam that occured 6 to 12 thousand years ago. But where is the pattern in scripture is a day means a million years
Not sure of the point here. You have to ignore geological, carbon dating, fossil records etc to believe the earth is that young. I'm just not willing to do so. YECs haven't been able to show me how these are incorrect. If they have a valid point I will certainly listen. I read their websites. Instead, often times they make up these scenerios that might have happened to get around the science. I do believe you can interpret the Bible outside of young earth and it still be very much in line with scripture. What we can agree on is the fact that there are MANY things the evolutionists are wrong about and things they say that are just anti-Biblical no matter how you slice it.
Thank you. Later
Quote from: jabcat on September 11, 2010, 05:28:56 AM
Topic split from here MERGED into;
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8616.msg103515#msg103515
Quote micah, opening post of this thread;
In several of my posts I have stated that I believe, at least to this point, that Gen. 1,2,3,4 are allegories.
I know that that kind of reasoning brings conflict. My faith is not weakened in anyway should Genesis be an allegory or should it be a real earthy history.
I believe that Noah's ark is Christ, I know that the Ark of the Covenant is Christ, I know that the wilderness experience is a shadow and type, all the OT is shadow and type.
The history of the Hebrews of the old testament is true I have no doubt, but I do not believe the "history of the Hebrews(Jews)" is what the Word of God wants, the believer to retrieve from His Word. It is important to understand what God wants us to know and I do not believe it is the history of a people to be the apex to our understanding. Jesus said Joh 4:23 But a time is coming--nay, has already come--when the true worshippers will worship the Father with true spiritual worship; for indeed the Father desires such worshippers.
Joh 4:24 God is Spirit; and those who worship Him must bring Him true spiritual worship."
And Joh 6:63 It is the spirit which gives Life. The flesh confers no benefit whatever. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and are Life.
This tells me that we as saints and believers need glean the spiritual understanding that is hidden in the OT rather than debate the "time and times" of the "things" of the OT and Genesis.
OOPS! :sigh:
ThinkTank
Shawn
WhiteWings
I admit that I need to update my knowledge on scientific findings,
If you are not well versed in the sciences it's best to stay out of debate that will involve science.
Sorry Shawn but I don't agree with that. Do you really expect to have discussion with scientists on this forum? Using the same view onlt theologians are allowed to post on this forum. I fear it would become a very silent forum with that rule...
I can accept the earth is older than 6000 years old, for dates and times are not entirely accurate. But there's a big jump between a 8000 year old earth and a 6 million year old earth.
Cool. But, I thought when you trace back Bible lineage it comes out to 6000 years right? How can you compromise on what you believe to be Biblical truth?
The number 6000 is used to often. Some Bible scholars have calculated 10000 years old. Others theologians say the info is not in the Bible. Read here (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=4194.msg50283#msg50283)
Quote from: Lefein on September 10, 2010, 10:00:28 PM
On a note for the Big Bang; it does say after all that God stretched the heavens like a tent.
Quite an...artistic way of putting it? Perhaps we're looking for the wrong word with "Allegory", and variations. Why not try the idea of "Artistically described"?
There are more Lefein.
This one. (http://www.abarim-publications.com/GenesisStandardModel.html)
Job 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing. => Gravitation
Job 28:25 To make the weight for the winds. => Long before scientists knew, God said air has weight.
Job 38:31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades .... => Pleiades is a group of stars with fixed distance to each other. Gravitational bands.
Genesis 6:3 My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. => Medically accepted maximum age
Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain
circle of earth => Earth is round.
stretcheth out the heavens => Dispersing of the universe.
as a curtain => Curved space?
Despersing of the universe:
Job 9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens ....
Psalm 104:2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:
Isaiah 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out;
Isaiah 44:24 .... I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Isaiah 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens .....
Isaiah 48:13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.
Isaiah 51:13 And forgettest the LORD thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth ....
Jeremiah 10:12 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.
Jeremiah 51:15 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heaven by his understanding.
Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth ....
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 11, 2010, 09:04:24 AM
ThinkTank
Shawn
WhiteWings
I admit that I need to update my knowledge on scientific findings,
If you are not well versed in the sciences it's best to stay out of debate that will involve science.
Sorry Shawn but I don't agree with that. Do you really expect to have discussion with scientists on this forum? Using the same view onlt theologians are allowed to post on this forum. I fear it would become a very silent forum with that rule...
I can accept the earth is older than 6000 years old, for dates and times are not entirely accurate. But there's a big jump between a 8000 year old earth and a 6 million year old earth.
Cool. But, I thought when you trace back Bible lineage it comes out to 6000 years right? How can you compromise on what you believe to be Biblical truth?
The number 6000 is used to often. Some Bible scholars have calculated 10000 years old. Others theologians say the info is not in the Bible. Read here (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=4194.msg50283#msg50283)
My only point is to be well versed on your stances. I am not a theologian by any stretch of the imagination but on those positions I feel strongly about I look into in depth. If you do believe the earth is only 6000 years old...tell us why. Then back it up with the particulars.
Have you actually read any of my posts? (they started before the WillieH-posting-color-debate)
It really puzzles me why you ask me about 6000 years.... :dontknow:
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 11, 2010, 10:45:21 AM
Have you actually read any of my posts? (they started before the WillieH-posting-color-debate)
It really puzzles me why you ask me about 6000 years.... :dontknow:
Because TT believes in a 6000 yr old earth and that's who I was speaking about.
In several of my posts I have stated that I believe, at least to this point, that Gen. 1,2,3,4 are allegories.
I know that that kind of reasoning brings conflict. My faith is not weakened in anyway should Genesis be an allegory or should it be a real earthy history.
I believe that Noah's ark is Christ, I know that the Ark of the Covenant is Christ, I know that the wilderness experience is a shadow and type, all the OT is shadow and type.
The history of the Hebrews of the old testament is true I have no doubt, but I do not believe the "history of the Hebrews(Jews)" is what the Word of God wants, the believer to retrieve from His Word. It is important to understand what God wants us to know and I do not believe it is the history of a people to be the apex to our understanding. Jesus said Joh 4:23 But a time is coming--nay, has already come--when the true worshippers will worship the Father with true spiritual worship; for indeed the Father desires such worshippers.
Joh 4:24 God is Spirit; and those who worship Him must bring Him true spiritual worship."
And Joh 6:63 It is the spirit which gives Life. The flesh confers no benefit whatever. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and are Life.
This tells me that we as saints and believers need glean the spiritual understanding that is hidden in the OT rather than debate the "time and times" of the "things" of the OT and Genesis.
What say you? (I stole that speak from O'Riely )
Growing up, I was taught that the earth was created in 6 days.
Then I had to ignore was I was taught at school about evolution, and the earth being billions years old and dinosaurs. These were a big ploy builtby thousands of scientists to undermine God...
But a few years ago, I read a book from a french theologian that there were christian scientists who believed in a old earth creationism.
I then learned about the word day which could have the meaning of indetermined period of time.
I didn't really decide anything but I knew that from now on I wouldn't be caught in weird conversation with evolutionnist, I had answers which made sense to both of us.
So if there was really an Adam or if it is a story to explain what happened to the fisrt humans, the importance is in the spiritual symbolism.
Honestly, how many people have rejected christianity as a myth because of the talking serpent literalist argue existed.
It makes so much more sense in understand that it was Eve's flesh that seduced her, her carnal nature.
So yeah, without discarding the historical nature of the Bible, we have to read it with our spiritual understanding.
:cloud9: Amen, it's like peeling back the layers of an onion.....
Quote from: shawn on September 11, 2010, 05:10:24 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 11, 2010, 10:45:21 AM
Have you actually read any of my posts? (they started before the WillieH-posting-color-debate)
It really puzzles me why you ask me about 6000 years.... :dontknow:
Because TT believes in a 6000 yr old earth and that's who I was speaking about.
The age of the earth is not my biggest concern, but that mankind was created from the dust of the ground as the scriptures say. I don't see any scripture which points to a subhuman design that got upgraded in Adam.
A sub human would also mean it evolved to become as Adam, is this what you mean Shaun? Or do you mean that God first created neathandral man and then scrapped that design and then created Adam? Or what do you mean? Do you think Genesis is an allegory, a story to portray evolution?
Quote from: thinktank on September 11, 2010, 07:53:22 PM
Quote from: shawn on September 11, 2010, 05:10:24 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 11, 2010, 10:45:21 AM
Have you actually read any of my posts? (they started before the WillieH-posting-color-debate)
It really puzzles me why you ask me about 6000 years.... :dontknow:
Because TT believes in a 6000 yr old earth and that's who I was speaking about.
The age of the earth is not my biggest concern, but that mankind was created from the dust of the ground as the scriptures say. I don't see any scripture which points to a subhuman design that got upgraded in Adam.
A sub human would also mean it evolved to become as Adam, is this what you mean Shaun? Or do you mean that God first created neathandral man and then scrapped that design and then created Adam? Or what do you mean? Do you think Genesis is an allegory, a story to portray evolution?
Wrong thread.
allegories?
Allegories of spiritual matters not allegories of more physical and historical matters.
Like Paul explained that the rock wich gave water to the Israelites was an allegory of Christ.
That it happened, where or when is unimportant considering the spiritual purpose of the story.
I personally believe it happened but I won't debate with someone about the physical possibility of a rock giving living water in the desert.
Allegorys? Just whats up with that?
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 13, 2010, 08:17:22 AM
Allegorys? Just whats up with that?
??
What's the question about?
Allegories, metaphors . .they are merely other words for seeing patterns in Scripture. I guess I wasn't paying close attention to the other Genesis thread that apparently got locked. But I've seen some comments on this thread, recent comments, I haven't read the entire thread . . .but they elude to the importance to seeing things spiritually rather than literally.
The conversation I originally responded to was dealing with Genesis 6. I'd like to just paste it here because it still applies to comments stated here as well if you don't mind.
-----------------------------------------------
Let me try a different approach to this.
What if it's not our place to try to reason out these matters through our human logic at all? What if these past, historical events really are God's way of trying to reveal spiritual truth? If we spend all of our energy with the sign itself, how can we benefit from the spiritual truth through which the sign is trying to point to?
Why is this "sons of God sleeping with daughters of men" presented in this kind of language in the first place? Has it ever occurred anyone to ask "how" a spirit being could become attracted to a natural being? Who says these were angels? Why do we have to swallow something another man has told us? Is there anyone who has a personal revelation of what God has given them on these matters? That "is" God's communication of choice you know. To "reveal" to us personally rather than for us to try to perceive it mentally.
If flesh truly profits nothing, then why are we continuing to put so much emphasis on the natural understandings? I find it interesting that we can take a word or phrase like "forever and ever" and dissect it and discuss the fact that the English translation of the original phrase given here has a completely different meaning and yet we take something like this and try to swallow it whole.
What is the spiritual message being given in this passage? What is the type and shadow of the kingdom principles that this sign is pointing to? What if what's on the surface here isn't the actual message?
How about seeing sons of God being the spirit man in all of us and the daughters of men being the offspring of carnality in us? My spirit is the man in me, my soul is the woman in me. Our old man's nature trying to mix with our spirit nature . .. not really trying, but actually "doing" it. Blending spiritual truth with natural reasoning producing giants? In our natural eyes, a giant is an enlarged human . . .spiritually it's a perversion of God's creation, and for me, it's also inflating flesh.
When we become intimately involved with taking spiritual truths and applying human knowledge, we inflate egos, personalities and mindsets which morph into doctrines, belief systems and religion.
In the middle of this, God declares he's not going to wrestle with flesh forever. All of this emphasis on fallen angels and dirty sex, and in the middle of it all God just throws his hands up and says "it's too much! You've gone too far! I'm only so big! I can't handle this!!
What if this is what Paul was referring to when he spoke of the inner wrestling that went on within him? How many people in Scripture do you see that died at 120? What if this all has a much deeper truth just waiting for people to go beneath the surface of what's being said so they can emerge in the mysteries of God's kingdom awaiting them?
:cloud9: That's very true Nathan, and I agree, but what if it's both? Both spiritual message and literal happening.....most things in there are. We are exploring all the avenues.....that's all. Blessings....
Say that it "is" both . . .which one are we "called" to? Natural? Or spiritual? That's all I'm saying as well.
Quote from: Nathan on September 14, 2010, 02:28:07 AM
Allegories, metaphors . .they are merely other words for seeing patterns in Scripture. I guess I wasn't paying close attention to the other Genesis thread that apparently got locked. But I've seen some comments on this thread, recent comments, I haven't read the entire thread . . .but they elude to the importance to seeing things spiritually rather than literally.
The conversation I originally responded to was dealing with Genesis 6. I'd like to just paste it here because it still applies to comments stated here as well if you don't mind.
-----------------------------------------------
Let me try a different approach to this.
What if it's not our place to try to reason out these matters through our human logic at all? What if these past, historical events really are God's way of trying to reveal spiritual truth? If we spend all of our energy with the sign itself, how can we benefit from the spiritual truth through which the sign is trying to point to?
Why is this "sons of God sleeping with daughters of men" presented in this kind of language in the first place? Has it ever occurred anyone to ask "how" a spirit being could become attracted to a natural being? Who says these were angels? Why do we have to swallow something another man has told us? Is there anyone who has a personal revelation of what God has given them on these matters? That "is" God's communication of choice you know. To "reveal" to us personally rather than for us to try to perceive it mentally.
If flesh truly profits nothing, then why are we continuing to put so much emphasis on the natural understandings? I find it interesting that we can take a word or phrase like "forever and ever" and dissect it and discuss the fact that the English translation of the original phrase given here has a completely different meaning and yet we take something like this and try to swallow it whole.
What is the spiritual message being given in this passage? What is the type and shadow of the kingdom principles that this sign is pointing to? What if what's on the surface here isn't the actual message?
How about seeing sons of God being the spirit man in all of us and the daughters of men being the offspring of carnality in us? My spirit is the man in me, my soul is the woman in me. Our old man's nature trying to mix with our spirit nature . .. not really trying, but actually "doing" it. Blending spiritual truth with natural reasoning producing giants? In our natural eyes, a giant is an enlarged human . . .spiritually it's a perversion of God's creation, and for me, it's also inflating flesh.
When we become intimately involved with taking spiritual truths and applying human knowledge, we inflate egos, personalities and mindsets which morph into doctrines, belief systems and religion.
In the middle of this, God declares he's not going to wrestle with flesh forever. All of this emphasis on fallen angels and dirty sex, and in the middle of it all God just throws his hands up and says "it's too much! You've gone too far! I'm only so big! I can't handle this!!
What if this is what Paul was referring to when he spoke of the inner wrestling that went on within him? How many people in Scripture do you see that died at 120? What if this all has a much deeper truth just waiting for people to go beneath the surface of what's being said so they can emerge in the mysteries of God's kingdom awaiting them?
:happyclap:
Thank you Nathan, exactly!
Quote from: Nathan on September 14, 2010, 02:35:10 AM
Say that it "is" both . . .which one are we "called" to? Natural? Or spiritual? That's all I'm saying as well.
How about seeing sons of God being the spirit man in all of us and the daughters of men being the offspring of carnality in us? My spirit is the man in me, my soul is the woman in me. Our old man's nature trying to mix with our spirit nature . .. not really trying, but actually "doing" it. Blending spiritual truth with natural reasoning producing giants? In our natural eyes, a giant is an enlarged human . . .spiritually it's a perversion of God's creation, and for me, it's also inflating flesh.
Nathan
You touched on something I wanted to discuss on the other thread, but it's been locked by the mod "demons", (that was a joke card, honest :mshock:)
As soon as the heavenly card :thumbsup: opens up the thread, I'll talk more about it.
:cloud9: :mblush: :mshock: :laugh: as soon as the other mods weigh in on that decision, it'll reopen. Blessings....