Tentmaker Forum

"Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace" (Gal. 5:2-4). Falling from grace has come to mean among some Christians that a person has gone back into sin. Paul does mean that, but he is not referring to the sin usually thought of: sex, drugs, and rock and roll. Paul is perfectly clear in this passage that the sin involved is seeking justification by Law rather than grace, which is the only way one can fall from grace.

http://www.mychurch.org/blog/93200/From-Slaves-To-Sons

So I am just broken ......... what else is new, eh.
I go to Florian's "My Church" blog this morning and I read this most marvelous and rich message he has copied by the Antonsson's from which the except and scriptures above are taken. It seems the months on "My Church" have taken a toll (not bad in itself) as I really see the blindness that has been sowed in most of the hearts of the bloggers there. This blindness is profound in it's depth and totality and if I had not had to interact with it for so many months I would not have had any idea of it's almost impenetrable nature.

That being said, after I read the Antonsson message on Florian's blog, I went to another blog by a good woman maybe making the transition to "deeper present truth"  and there I watched a video. This video I believe was shot some where in Africa and there were all these white peeps from the affluent west ministering to the poor black people. They were dancing, singing and baptizing and doing all the sorts of things white western church people do in church. This video was magnificently shot and the music accompanying it was first rate but the whole thing sickened me and I could only watch a few minutes of it.

I thought of the scriptures above by Paul and the message accompanying it by Antonsson copied again below.

Paul is perfectly clear in this passage that the sin involved is seeking justification by Law rather than grace, which is the only way one can fall from grace.

These white western missionaries  feel like they are doing a wonderful thing for Jesus, but are they really, as these new converts will be brought almost immediately under the spell of justification by law and works.

Do you believe these black African natives are being introduced to the real Jesus by these western weekend missionaries with their fear based doctrines?

If they do meet Jesus in these meetings, for what purpose, when they will fall from grace almost immediately trying to appease God through their own works as taught and organized by the missionary church?

Is there another way that is soon to emerge or is this the set pattern for all and I just see the organized church as just that; organizing this pattern from grace to law? Is the grace to law process inevitable whether in church or not?

My heart is sick as I painfully wrestle with these thoughts today and wonder what your answers would be to my questions. In closing let me say I do feel like something is coming that will circumvent this pattern or at least shorten it's duration. 

Blessings,

Jack

Jack,

I was talking to a brother tonight and started talking about what we are waiting for as far as locally proclaiming this truely "full gospel" in a more face to face way. I heard myself saying that we have tasted to some extent of the new wine, but we are still waiting for the new wineskin that will hold this new wine.

This new wine that reveals God as He is as the Savior of all would absolutley blow the doors off the current religious structure that we see today. For one thing, most known pastors and preachers have preached too many hell sermons to take it back now without a fight.

I know that we would love to blow up that structure, but Jesus told us not to do it. It is not that He cares so much for that structure, but he cares about the people who would initially be hurt by the collapse. Thus, He says that we must not put new wine into old wineskins.

So here we are. Tentmaker and My Church are wineskins that hold this wine to some extent, but God has more. Christians, like sheep, are gregarious creatures and naturally congregate. We will never be whole until we are allowed to assemble again. But, we have learned too much to try to put this new wine in the old "church" structure and we know too much to try to choose our own new structure.

So, we patiently wait upon the Lord to see what He will form so that we can pour out of our spirits this new wine that we love so well into the new wineskin that He has chosen and has been created by His hand.

John

Yes I understand that position John and that may well be yours but I often hear something else for myself as I share locally, and just about every where God opens up opportunity. I believe there is coming great tribulation to the earth and although very few hear today, that which we share will be remembered and give hope tomorrow when the fires burn hot and men's hearts fail them.

I sense the anointing as I share and if that were missing I would stop. Tonight one of the entitled ones where I share wrote a blog on "heresy and those that bring it."  As I was doing the spell check for the blog I had just written at His direction I noticed he had just posted his. It so blessed me to know I was answering his message before I even read it.

I posted my message here also a few minutes ago as I think it a good for new comers to the board.

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=1371.msg11759#new

Thanks brother for you reply and I agree something mighty is about to happen ........ I feel it often as I pray late at night.

Jack

Hi John and Jack, I really enjoyed reading this posts. Wherever I go I see disillusioned believers and churches collapsing in our area. While seeing this happening more and more I really wonder what is goint to happen in the future. One of the things I am hearing quite clearly at the moment is to really grow in my personal relationship with our Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ and to learn to hear the voice of the Holy Spirit more clearly than any other voices. Maybe that's the reason for all the challenges- actually I am sure it is. But I really can't see where we are going with all of this. What is laying ahead? What is the vision? I would love to hear some more concerning this issues of our older brothers and sisters in the Lord.

Those that are blinded in the churches and have married an institution are too full and have no room for truth imo they are going to miss out on what many in the world that are walking in unbelief and hunger will immediately recognize as the hope that went unsatisfied within them all their lives. They will run to Him while the others will continue to gnaw on the bones and eat their own flesh.

I believe honestly that we are all going to be shocked at whom God has truly prepared to bring in the harvest

I honestly dont know where I fall in all this and just seek to stay focused on Jesus as best Im able

just my  :2c:

kept

Quote from: Kept on November 14, 2007, 03:14:32 PM
I believe honestly that we are all going to be shocked at whom God has truly prepared to bring in the harvest kept

:cloud9: The "misfits" and "malcontents" in David's cave, hidden away from the rest, running for their lives from Saul/reasoning,  would be my guess...... :winkgrin:

hmmm

so that 'come, lets reason together' is something we need to run from and hide in a cave from. God is playing a trick to seperate those chosen from the unchosen. Sort of a reverse physchology thing and the question is one we need to abort.

Is that what you are saying?

or am I misinterpreting your words?

kept

 :cloud9: Yes, you are misinterpreting my words. I was talking about ALL of us out here in the wilderness in the cave of HIM, "hiding" from all the "Sauls" = carnal minds steeped in religion, that would like to "kill" us......even our OWN carnal minds...... :mshock:

oohhhh lol sorry bout that, I do misunderstand at times, hence the asking

im a mess

thanks

kept

 :HeartThrob: Singing the James Taylor song........"ain't it good to know, you got a friend"  :thumbsup:

oh sis you got your work cut out for you with me, haha

Even one of my athiest friends posted a link to a definition in his post to me to save me time as he knew I wouldnt know what the heck the word meant haha Im a mess and I appreciate grace when I totally misunderstand or dont understand.

He blessed me doing that, such a nice guy and you blessed me too

lol
kept

QuoteWherever I go I see disillusioned believers and churches collapsing in our area. While seeing this happening more and more I really wonder what is going to happen in the future.

Florian, I had a dream last night. It seemed all night long I was trying to encourage and teach these fearful people to climb this incredibly long ladder and comfortably work from the top of it.

I was certainly tired when I awoke ....... tough crew to teach.

 :cloud9: Good dream......He showed you the root didn't He? Fear......Blessings to you.....

Speaking of seeing the 'root' in a dream

I had the coolest dream one time of a great storm coming and it wasnt to my house but coming, and this very huge tree came at my house and stopped right in front of the window I was standing looking out of which happens to be the front bay windows where right above them is painted 'Praise the Lord! His Mercy Endures Forever! And this tree stopped right there, the roots facing me and it was on its side. It was as big around as my house probably, huge and I could see all the roots.

Then I woke up

kept

 :cloud9: I had a tree dream of sorts, too. Two of them. The one that came to mind was,  I was speeding thru this tunnel really fast towards a light (not very original sounding I know). I was aware of branches or roots of trees on both sides all around this tunnel trying to grab me to slow me down, but they couldn't, I was going too fast.....at first. Then I started to slow down and I was panicking at the thought that they were going to get me. Then I woke up. I think it was the generational things that are trying to grip us as we move towards the light of His Spirit, being set free. I had slowed down at that point I knew because of a wrong attitude that was bogging me down spiritually I had to overcome. I got back on track fast, because the dream was so real I awoke literally sick to my stomach from the sight of it. Blessings to you......

Quote from: Hennessey on November 13, 2007, 08:47:06 PM
"Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You

and yet...and yet...Paul circumsized Timothy????!!!

every one say..."doublespeak"...or even better..."hypocrite"!

Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing ........ 1Cr 7:19

Quote from: noname on November 16, 2007, 09:16:28 AM

Quote from: Hennessey on November 13, 2007, 08:47:06 PM
"Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You

and yet...and yet...Paul circumsized Timothy????!!!

every one say..."doublespeak"...or even better..."hypocrite"!

There is no doublespeak or hypocracy. Timothy was circumsized in order that he could minister to the Jews in the Temple. The circumcision meant nothing between Timothy and God, but to save the Jews, he became a Jew.

 :cloud9: Amen to that Craig. He was circumcised so as not to be a stumbling block. How many of us would go to "extremes" not to be a stumbling block to our brethren? And the funny thing is; once that correct motive of the heart is worked into you and perfected on that, then He'll let you be a stumbling block for His purspose. But it's because it's HIM doing it, and not you. It's all about the cleansing of the motive of the heart. Until there is nothing left in us that won't bow the knee to His will and purpose.

Example: we're out here outside the camp, which is a stumbling block to many, yet He had us do it. Blessings to all.......

Yep its not easy going to extemes for our brethren. The entire world is our brethren for he has made of one blood all nations. Those that dont understand ya when you are sent to a particular nation ya just have to give them to God and go forward looking like you are 'mad' and a 'compromiser' and whatever else they see you as. Sometimes you are just sent to learn and not to teach.

I get this from some about my new found place of residense on a mostly athiest board and then

Yesterday I was in the bookstore and this man went to warn me about a book I was pulling off the shelf, one by Barclay on the compassion of Jesus and he went to warn me of Barclay as he had some very questionable beliefs. 'Oh you mean like universalism?' . 'Yes' you must be careful.' 'Well that is the reason I love him and am buying this book.'........ect ect.....till the insults and the you are crazy and should read your bible starts.....

we all are familiar with these things

that is why its such a lonely walk....at some point in our walks we will be seperated even from those that we are closest too till we join up again in another area

what a journey

kept

Quote from: Kept on November 16, 2007, 06:53:54 PM
Yesterday I was in the bookstore and this man went to warn me about a book I was pulling off the shelf, one by Barclay on the compassion of Jesus and he went to warn me of Barclay as he had some very questionable beliefs. 'Oh you mean like universalism?' . 'Yes' you must be careful.' 'Well that is the reason I love him and am buying this book.'........ect ect.....till the insults and the you are crazy and should read your bible starts.....

That reminds me in June with I was treating Pastor Dick King to dinner after picking him up at the airport. We were excitedly talking about the things of Jesus and we never used the words, universal reconciliaiton or universalism. As we were talking, this man with his bible came closer and closer and started praising Jesus with us until he unexpectedly realized what we were saying. Then the insults came, and wow did this man turn from a man worshipping God, into a devil accusing us of blasphemy. All Pastor King and myself could do was nod our heads and tell him the Lord will reveal it in due time.

Thanks for Sharing Kept. I could relate.

It amazes me how much UR is an offence to others.

Truely weird, the Orthodox will tolerate JW's SDA's and even Mormons politely but god forbid that All men will be saved.

Strange as i always thought that was the whole purpose of Jesus' mission.

The key ingedient missing is Love.

Blessings

Yeah it is sad

This guy asked me what exactly I believed and I said well I dont believe in eternal torment but I do believe in Jesus Christ as the savior of All men
and he said 'How convenient!!!!' and 'You need to read your bible!'

as if Id just arrived at this all on my own and never really read the bible, no humility at all, no desire to really understand just a judge standing there in all his wonderful wisdom throwing down his gavel and passing judgement on me

I so wanted to say 'If I read the bible will I be like you?'

but I bit my lip and walked off

kept

Quote from: Kept on November 16, 2007, 08:54:56 PM
Yeah it is sad

This guy asked me what exactly I believed and I said well I dont believe in eternal torment but I do believe in Jesus Christ as the savior of All men
and he said 'How convenient!!!!' and 'You need to read your bible!'

as if Id just arrived at this all on my own and never really read the bible, no humility at all, no desire to really understand just a judge standing there in all his wonderful wisdom throwing down his gavel and passing judgement on me

I so wanted to say 'If I read the bible will I be like you?'

but I bit my lip and walked off

kept

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Yes, judges are a dime a dozen in the religious establishments of this world and have only increased in their hardness since the days our Lord and Saviour, the Son of man walked amoung us men, I am patiently waiting for the day when by the grace of God the jury deliberates in the spirit of the law and the judge receives the truthful revealation that the letter of the law is death.

Peace,
Fire Walker

I was visiting with my "UR" friend and neighbor, Christie today and we were bemoaning the great darkness that confronts and confounds us as we share His grace with those bound by the law and works. It is just baffling ...... so unbelievable that you share again and again, over and over, always believing there will be some kind of reception.

One day there will, I am sure of this. Meanwhile we suffer with Jesus as He weeps over Jerusalem. Oh, how we must suffer with Him to truly know Him.

It truly hurts today,

Jack

oh man this is tough isnt it

And you cant give up! Cause there is this Christ in you that is determined so you just keep on keepin on

man some days though I ask if there is any way that annhilation could be true and could it be true for me right freaking now! lol Of course I dont mean it, its just so tiring at times and then Here HE comes and washes my feet, mine, me this disgusted, tired haughty fed up little gal .......man talk about love!

sorry

kept

As most sit in their congregations partaking of the wafers and grape juice this is our communion (Greek. koinonos: partnership, participation). I pray these scripture might encourage you today and that you might find comfort as often with great suffering you are made into His image.  

"For even hereunto were ye called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps" 1 Peter2:21

"For the bodies of those animals whose blood is brought into the holy place by the high priest as an offering for sin are burned outside the camp. "Therefore, Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people through his own blood, suffered outside the gate. "Hence, let us go out to him outside the camp, bearing his reproach" Heb. 13:11-13

"We are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things" 1 Cor. 4:13

"The reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me" Psa. 69:9

Jesus was "despised and rejected of men." He was esteemed "stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted" Isa. 53:3, 4

Jesus told his disciples, "...the world hateth you.... The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you." John. 15:19,20

"Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints." Ps. 116:15

"It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him" 2 Tim. 11,12

God bless,

Jack


.

 :friendstu:

kept

Quote from: Hennessey on November 16, 2007, 09:52:58 PM
I was visiting with my "UR" friend and neighbor, Christie today and we were bemoaning the great darkness that confronts and confounds us as we share His grace with those bound by the law and works. It is just baffling ...... so unbelievable that you share again and again, over and over, always believing there will be some kind of reception.

One day there will, I am sure of this. Meanwhile we suffer with Jesus as He weeps over Jerusalem. Oh, how we must suffer with Him to truly know Him.

It truly hurts today,

Jack

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Amen Jack! 

:thumbsup:

Quote from: Hennessey on November 16, 2007, 09:42:13 AM
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing ........ 1Cr 7:19

oh...how clever...first he says "Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all."

so...he is saying those who are circumcised...to them Christ would be of no value at all (so even Jews who want to obey Moses and also want to be Christians cannot be?)

and then...he goes and circumcise Timothy??
in other words he MAKES Timothy to be someone of whom "Christ will be of no value to you at all"???

and then...he quickly corrects himself by contradicting his own words and actions..."Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing"???

oh how very clever...wily as the snake...changing his tune as it fits him...am I the only one seeing this?

Quoteoh...how clever...first he says "Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all."

Once again. You do not understand what Paul was saying. When Paul said don't be circumsized; he was talking to those people who still think circumcision actually meant something!

You are just demonstrating a lack of comprehension between intention and reality. There was no deception in his words; they context is what makes them mean something. 2

Quoteam I the only one seeing this?

Yes, because you are looking for deception; instead of understanding what Paul was talking about.

If someone comes along and says, "You can only be saved through circumcision" and you can circumsized to be saved, "CHRIST WILL BE NO VALUE TO YOU ALL." Because your intention of circumcision has destroyed your own faith!

If someone comes along and says, "You are not a Jew, you cannot enter the temple and teach." and you can circumsized to enter the temple to teach, you did not get circumsized to get saved; nor does circumcision mean anything to you. You got circumsized so you could preach to the Jews to save the Jews. Because the intention of circumcision was to preach the Gospel to the Jews!

Even Jesus did things that were of no value in order to not offend the Jews, even though a Jew did it to appease God!

Matthew 17:24-27
After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma tax came to Peter and asked, "Doesn't your teacher pay the temple tax?"
"Yes, he does," he replied.

When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. "What do you think, Simon?" he asked. "From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes—from their own sons or from others?"

"From others," Peter answered.

"Then the sons are exempt," Jesus said to him. "But so that we may not offend them, go to the lake and throw out your line. Take the first fish you catch; open its mouth and you will find a four-drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours."

Jesus was exempt from paying Temple Tax, so was Peter, in the eyes of God. But they paid it anyways in order not to offend the Jews.

Romans 10 says that Christ is the end of the Law "for righteousness sake". It is clear that we still should not steal or commit adultary etc. Keeping for the  sake of living a good life or "to be all things that you might winn some' is not the same as doing it in order to appear righteous before God. God is often more concerned with the "why" of our actions as He is with the "what".

John

Quote from: Craig on November 20, 2007, 08:53:16 AM

Quoteoh...how clever...first he says "Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all."

Once again. You do not understand what Paul was saying. When Paul said don't be circumsized; he was talking to those people who still think circumcision actually meant something!

You are just demonstrating a lack of comprehension between intention and reality. There was no deception in his words; they context is what makes them mean something. 2

Quoteam I the only one seeing this?

Yes, because you are looking for deception; instead of understanding what Paul was talking about.

If someone comes along and says, "You can only be saved through circumcision" and you can circumsized to be saved, "CHRIST WILL BE NO VALUE TO YOU ALL." Because your intention of circumcision has destroyed your own faith!

If someone comes along and says, "You are not a Jew, you cannot enter the temple and teach." and you can circumsized to enter the temple to teach, you did not get circumsized to get saved; nor does circumcision mean anything to you. You got circumsized so you could preach to the Jews to save the Jews. Because the intention of circumcision was to preach the Gospel to the Jews!

Even Jesus did things that were of no value in order to not offend the Jews, even though a Jew did it to appease God!

Matthew 17:24-27
After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma tax came to Peter and asked, "Doesn't your teacher pay the temple tax?"
"Yes, he does," he replied.

When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. "What do you think, Simon?" he asked. "From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes—from their own sons or from others?"

"From others," Peter answered.

"Then the sons are exempt," Jesus said to him. "But so that we may not offend them, go to the lake and throw out your line. Take the first fish you catch; open its mouth and you will find a four-drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours."

Jesus was exempt from paying Temple Tax, so was Peter, in the eyes of God. But they paid it anyways in order not to offend the Jews.

Craig,
I totally understand what Paul is saying...what he is saying in one instance and doing in another are TWO DIFFERENT things...no...THREE DIFFERENT things...I'm not looking for deception...it is right there slapping you in the face

you're denying what he said and did and tell me I don't understand his "intentions"? c'mon brother...

Jesus never replaced the Mosaic law Craig...study the history of the early church (Jewish) and you will see...
the early church kept the laws of Moses and of Christ...it was never a either/or thing...they obeyed both because they knew that Jesus was the fulfillment of the Law and that he was NEVER in confict with it or abolished it...only with the Pharisees' interpretation thereof

if you would do further study you will realize that the Jews accused Paul of doing just that...abolishing the Law...why do you think he was summoned to Jerusalem to appear before the church to explain himself?
see Acts

Quote from: Hennessey on November 16, 2007, 09:52:58 PM
I was visiting with my "UR" friend and neighbor, Christie today and we were bemoaning the great darkness that confronts and confounds us as we share His grace with those bound by the law and works. It is just baffling ...... so unbelievable that you share again and again, over and over, always believing there will be some kind of reception.

That's when I can rest and believe that we are salt and light no matter what the reception "seems" to be.  Light does penetrate the darkness and salt does season the tasteless!  Be of Good cheer for He has overcome the world!

QuoteThat's when I can rest and believe that we are salt and light no matter what the reception "seems" to be.  Light does penetrate the darkness and salt does season the tasteless!  Be of Good cheer for He has overcome the world!

Holly, I didn't know whether I worded my post very well. The emphasis was that we are driven to continue sharing no matter the response. You seem to echo the same with your words here.

Those that don't enjoy the deeper freeing Truth often retort, "what is the reason for sharing Christ if everyone gets saved in the end."

How does one ever explain the mystical presence of Christ within a yielded vessel. lol

Be blessed this holiday,

Jack

Quote from: noname on November 16, 2007, 09:16:28 AM

Quote from: Hennessey on November 13, 2007, 08:47:06 PM
"Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You

and yet...and yet...Paul circumsized Timothy????!!!

every one say..."doublespeak"...or even better..."hypocrite"!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Noname,

In so many words are you saying Paul was a false Apostle?

The Gentiles unlike the Jews were never under mosiac law, old covenant laws. Even so When Jesus was here in the flesh he found more faith outside Israel with a Gentile than he did in all of Israel, he even said this himself.

I am just wondering how you really view Paul other than being the hypocrite you call him here when he had good purpose for Timothies circumcision apart and outside of doing this because of the law? 

Peace,
Fire Walker

Quote from: fire walker on November 21, 2007, 08:17:47 AM

Quote from: noname on November 16, 2007, 09:16:28 AM

Quote from: Hennessey on November 13, 2007, 08:47:06 PM
"Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You

and yet...and yet...Paul circumsized Timothy????!!!

every one say..."doublespeak"...or even better..."hypocrite"!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Noname,

In so many words are you saying Paul was a false Apostle?

The Gentiles unlike the Jews were never under mosiac law, old covenant laws. Even so When Jesus was here in the flesh he found more faith outside Israel with a Gentile than he did in all of Israel, he even said this himself.

I am just wondering how you really view Paul other than being the hypocrite you call him here when he had good purpose for Timothies circumcision apart and outside of doing this because of the law? 

Peace,
Fire Walker

FW,
we are not talking about Gentiles here at all...but about Jews (Jews being circumcised or not)
as I said to Craig...the Cristian Jews accused Paul of wanting to abrogate the Law...not the Gentiles
as for Paul clearly contradicting himself in his words and actions, it is pretty obvious...so you decide on his "apostleship"