Tentmaker Forum

Wasn't sure exactly where to post this but here goes :D      Fear  spoken about an awful lot in the Bible.  In the NT   mostly  angels, Jesus and the  apostles  declare to us fear not.  There are a few verses dealing with fear such as *perfect love casts out fear for he who fears is not perfected in love*, also, *God has not given us a spirit of fear  but of love power and  discipline*  Sorry don't have Bible in front of me someone please   match the  Scripture references if you would.   Now it would  seem to me  those who hold an ET   doctrine  would have a  kind of spiritual schizophrenia in that  they   should have no fear but  the threat of  eternal hell    surely can   nt avoid inducing the  ultimate fear we  are told not to have. For me personally,   my dad died of cancer when i was 8.  Ever since it  instilled a sense of fear in me  wondering  if God allowed it or   what, of course from a  childs pov.

i just wanted to see   how  any of you  process these verses and how you  deal with fear as    UR  believers??   It seems  a paradox that     sometimes those who  hold to   a   belief they need not fear   can come across judging any who do have fear making them  afraid to even express the fear they don;t want. LOL  Hope that makes sense.  i look forward to all responses :)

Robert

Brother, I was raised in the Roman Catholic Church that systematized fear of a sadistic god who plans to torture most of humanity in fire forever. That is the religious arm of the Roman Empire that ruled by fear, and it crafted a system of deception that still controls all who believe its doctrine including Catholics and Protestants. It did so by torturing and killing believers with fire simply for reading scripture. It couldn't suppress scripture, and it changed scripture to deceive its followers with fear of being tortured alive in fire forever after they die. Church doctrine is all about fear and deception. God is love. Get out of church and into God. If you believe the word of God, you should no longer fear death because Jesus Christ's death and resurrection guarantee that all mankind will be saved from death. The sadistic monster who is the god of the church is not the living God of scripture who will save all mankind and be all in all.

Why fear death?  :mock: :eek: :declare:

It's just a dirt nap prior to LIVING FOR EVER  :cloud9: with a better body and a better mind - not to mention a better world.  :dsunny:

Quote from: Robert32 on November 10, 2013, 03:52:12 AM
Wasn't sure exactly where to post this but here goes :D      Fear  spoken about an awful lot in the Bible.  In the NT   mostly  angels, Jesus and the  apostles  declare to us fear not.  There are a few verses dealing with fear such as *perfect love casts out fear for he who fears is not perfected in love*,

1John 4:18 Fear is not in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear holds punishment, and he who is afraid has not been fully perfected in love.

Quotealso, *God has not given us a spirit of fear  but of love power and  discipline*

Rom 8:15 For ye did not receive a spirit of bondage again for fear, but ye received a spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

The word translated as fear can also mean reverence.

QuoteNow it would  seem to me  those who hold an ET   doctrine  would have a  kind of spiritual schizophrenia in that  they   should have no fear but  the threat of  eternal hell

Rom 8
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15 For ye did not receive a spirit of bondage again for fear, but ye received a spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Verse 15 is about the group that was defined if verse 14.

...fear not those that kill the body...........those who all their lives were in bondage through fear of

death.   the cross is being put to death by the Kingdom of darkness for doing good...........

    and perfection is the casting aside of this fear..as well as overcoming through Christ all the power

  of the enemy.

suffering for obediance[doing good/Father's will] makes perfect......

     what can man do to you? if God be for you.......

     there is no fear of judgement for God loves you as His son[devils beleive and tremble/the

sinners in Zion are afraid/did you come before the appointed time to torment us] you know He

haas made atonement for all. You know you have received the free gift of eternal life..and the

token of the spirit as surety to what is coming[your deliverance from the wicked one/death]

   there is,however..a burning love in your heart and a desire to please Him and serve Him in

whatever way He would have/equip you to. There is a knowledge of the weakness/failings

of your flesh..in contrast to the power of His spirit. You do know anything of His will  done

is of His spirit and not of yourselves. You know it is only His spirit that makes a difference.....

that you are no better then any other humanbeing...that it is all Him.........with His spirit there

is no self-exaltation..but actually a humbling of your vessel..for you know your vessel is

unworthy of the Holy spirit  He has graced you with.


   Always remember that God haas chosen the weak,foolish despized of the earth..in order

to put the wise and strong to shame..so that it may be by His spirit...and you will not get

the big-head,or puffed up...thinking mistakenly you are more then what you are.

    Vaunt not yourself over any man..that be taken captive of sin,deceived,in rebellion,carnal

that knows not God...for you have been in that state..and still would be if not for His grace/spirit

.......and what you now are is of Him..as well as what you previously were..and will be.

      Praise and Reverence is due Him for the works of His hands.....

   But if we do sin..we have an advocate in Jesus Christ..and if the righteous[through Christ]

stumble 7 times..God will make him get up...for it is the will of God that ALL men be saved

by His son,Jesus Christ...and nothing caan stand against His express will.

       Now,we know we will receive discipline from our Father..that we not be condemned with the

wicked[evil spirits]  and even that is a comfort..for He holds us from going to our destruction

when we err from the path. If we have a wrong attitude..He is sure to bring circumstances..that

change our mind..... sometimes a word is all that is needed,sometimes more is needed.....He

makes us realize things that we were totally blind to,in ourselves. When we are greiving under this

discipline[heart-sick]..He is quick to come to us and comfort us..of His continuing love .

   No-one else loves us more,has our best interests at heart,can counsel and lead us better

or is more intelligent than Him. We have access to Him in all times and through all circumstances

for help. If we don't know what to do,we can ask Him..if we don't understand something we can

ask Him what He thinks of it. We can make requests in accordance with His will and He will do it.

      He also has authority over our body that we do what He requests/asks of us.

   there is no reason to ever be afraid anymore,little children....for YOUR GOD IS WITH YOU

     YOUR GOD LOVES YOU,YOU RE HIS CHILDREN AND HE IS YOUR FATHER...

   He will not allw you to go to far..where He can not recover you...He will not allow you to

totally eternally destroy yourself...He will lead you,and He's got your back....

   YOUR DESTINATION  IS HOME  AND THERE IS NOTHING THAT IS GOING TO KEEP YOU FROM

GETTING THERE!  NO POWER WILL KEEP IT FROM OCCURRING!

Quote from: Robert32 on November 10, 2013, 03:52:12 AM
i just wanted to see   how  any of you  process these verses and how you  deal with fear as    UR  believers??   It seems  a paradox that     sometimes those who  hold to   a   belief they need not fear   can come across judging any who do have fear making them  afraid to even express the fear they don;t want. LOL  Hope that makes sense.  i look forward to all responses :)

Robert

Here is how I understand a proper fear of God:

Galatians 6
7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Throughout Paul's letters he talks about God judging man according to their works:

Romans 2
5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will repay each person according to what they have done."a 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life (the life of the age - Jesus is the LIFE). 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

So when Paul says that God will not be mocked, he is warning us that God will make sure that we will reap what we sow, by turning us over to our sin if that is what we sow. Here is how God does this:

Romans 1
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

They received "in themselves" the penalty due them, the reward for their sowing was to be given over to the foul fruits of a bad tree.

But we ought not fear that God would lose the little sparrows. The Prodigal Son teaches us that the Father is in control. He does all this to bring man unto repentance, EVERY proud eye will be lowered unto humility, for God will not be mocked.

I do not fear God as torturer, but I tremble at his feet as THE MOST HIGH GOD, the king. If he appeared before us in all glory, the first thing he would say is : don't be afraid. He would say this because we would be flat on the ground. It happened with Jesus. The apostles didn't recognize Jesus, and the first thing he said was: fear not, it is I.

It's important for us to be watchful, for God will recompense corruption for those who sow to the flesh.

Robert this answer might seem a little strange but I surely answers your questions on many fronts.


I would love to here your thoughts after reading it.


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


On Death
Kahlil GibranYou would know the secret of death.
But how shall you find it unless you seek it in the heart of life?
The owl whose night-bound eyes are blind unto the day cannot unveil the mystery of light.
If you would indeed behold the spirit of death, open your heart wide unto the body of life.
For life and death are one, even as the river and the sea are one.


In the depth of your hopes and desires lies your silent knowledge of the beyond;
And like seeds dreaming beneath the snow your heart dreams of spring.
Trust the dreams, for in them is hidden the gate to eternity.
Your fear of death is but the trembling of the shepherd when he stands before the king whose hand is to be laid upon him in honour.
Is the shepherd not joyful beneath his trembling, that he shall wear the mark of the king?
Yet is he not more mindful of his trembling?


For what is it to die but to stand naked in the wind and to melt into the sun?
And what is it to cease breathing, but to free the breath from its restless tides, that it may rise and expand and seek God unencumbered?


Only when you drink from the river of silence shall you indeed sing.
And when you have reached the mountain top, then you shall begin to climb.
And when the earth shall claim your limbs, then shall you truly dance.

Quote from: Lazarus Short on November 10, 2013, 08:37:25 AM
Why fear death?  :mock: :eek: :declare:

It's just a dirt nap prior to LIVING FOR EVER  :cloud9: with a better body and a better mind - not to mention a better world.  :dsunny:

Amen!! I like that!!  :icon_flower: :thumbsup:

Quote from: Seth on November 11, 2013, 04:25:32 AM

Quote from: Robert32 on November 10, 2013, 03:52:12 AM
i just wanted to see   how  any of you  process these verses and how you  deal with fear as    UR  believers??   It seems  a paradox that     sometimes those who  hold to   a   belief they need not fear   can come across judging any who do have fear making them  afraid to even express the fear they don;t want. LOL  Hope that makes sense.  i look forward to all responses :)

Robert

Here is how I understand a proper fear of God:

Galatians 6
7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Throughout Paul's letters he talks about God judging man according to their works:

Romans 2
5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will repay each person according to what they have done."a 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life (the life of the age - Jesus is the LIFE). 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

So when Paul says that God will not be mocked, he is warning us that God will make sure that we will reap what we sow, by turning us over to our sin if that is what we sow. Here is how God does this:

Romans 1
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

They received "in themselves" the penalty due them, the reward for their sowing was to be given over to the foul fruits of a bad tree.

But we ought not fear that God would lose the little sparrows. The Prodigal Son teaches us that the Father is in control. He does all this to bring man unto repentance, EVERY proud eye will be lowered unto humility, for God will not be mocked.

I do not fear God as torturer, but I tremble at his feet as THE MOST HIGH GOD, the king. If he appeared before us in all glory, the first thing he would say is : don't be afraid. He would say this because we would be flat on the ground. It happened with Jesus. The apostles didn't recognize Jesus, and the first thing he said was: fear not, it is I.

It's important for us to be watchful, for God will recompense corruption for those who sow to the flesh.

...great posts in this thread but, Seth, that was perfect!!

more and more i find myself thinking how sin (im-perfection) bears witness of itself..

our Father need not punish, etc, for in the imperfection (sin) is destruction.. It's exactly like the 2nd most held law of science, the Law of Entropy.. all things (imperfect) fall apart.. fade.. and by this too, besides common sense, we know God is Perfect.. and Perfection makes no mistakes.. and holds no malice..

He has openly revealed Himself.. through Jesus.. Even when Jesus was angry and overthrew the commercial tables in the Temple Complex, He didn't hurt anyone.. never that.. never a fist for hitting, did His hand form..

Jesus, God's Perfect Example, healed and taught, smiled, accepted.. encouraged..

God Loves.. "God iS Love" .. all of it..

Yes exactly. God doesn't need to force anyone to sin. We instinctively want to do it. Then, he changes our mind. To humble the proud mind, he will show them the uselessness and destruction of the flesh so that they will want a Savior.

In that manner, I would say: Don't be afraid of God, but dare not mock him either.

Those who are in the City today, have already had their flesh destroyed (hopefully. after all, those tares and wheat grow together) and repented outside the city. The world is waiting to see who the Sons of God are, and they will deliver Creation into their glorious liberty (Romans 8)

Thanks everyone  for all your thoughtful carimng responses. I agree with so much of what has been shared,  I just know, and   have heard from other people as well  all throughout life, our    feelings dont always match our knowledge. I just   covered the book of Jude in   our sunday school class. Juse uses some  very  strong   absolute wording when speaking  of an eternal punishment for those who   become apostate or   turn to unbelief.  A large part of  me WANTS to just  rest relax in the arms of God and His love, but I see the  verses like   ananias and sapphira the ones in Jude  in Hebrews talking about falling into the hands of the Living God and the one that says  fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in hell or gehenna, just   tugs at the weak  part of me  you know??

I know  not everyone on this forum  is   a christian which is awesome they willingly seek to participate, we all are in diferent stages of our walk.  For me as i said in my   statement when i made this thread,    admitting to  having fear and then having someone   say well    dont be afriad is   like a   dismissal. I dont WANT to be afraid but  part of me   finds  a reason too. Hope you can understand more where I am coming from and i   will   seek to apply   what you have all shared with Gods grace and love helping me   :)

Robert, thanks for taking the time to share where you are.

Jesus summed it up here:

Mat 6:27  Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life?

So what is fear? Fear I have learned is being afraid (worried) over ones lack of control over an outcome. Could be an exam, a procedure or life threatening ailment. Fear can even be driving a car on an interstate or even being in public. Fear is just an automatic self protection mechanism used by the ego (I am not saying anything negative here) to protect us. Most times fear brings a healthy respect towards the dangers involved, other times it could be just a fear of embarrassment.

Yet, we are told to fear Father. Something I have never been able to do. How could I possibly fear the one who has given me life? This is very much like my physical father whom I loved dearly, but I was more than a little fearful of stepping out of line. Was I afraid of my dad, of course not.

I spent so many years swimming up-stream. My career choice has seen me "need" to be in control many times over things which I had none. Fear goes hand in hand with TRUST. Sometimes, in fact most of the time, all one can do is do their best and trust that everything will wrk out. My dad taught me to always plan for the worst but HOPE for the best.

This is just the same view from a different perspective. Instead of being fearful of things that might go wrong, be hopeful that all will go fine because the mitigating steps planned and implemented.

Gosh, sounds more like an engineering class than a talk on UR.  :eek:

Though the underlying steps are the same. We are all just very small players in a huge game. No matter what we do, say or think is going to have any outcome on what Father has planned. So what should one do? Give up? Certainly an option, but not very positive. Living in fear of being totally unsure of what is going to happen, second guessing everything? This is the swimming up-stream part. I think Father enjoys watching us try to be as He: little would be gods. We struggle, sometimes we win and sometimes not, but as hard as we struggle, we are no further along in our journey home.

Trust is no second guessing, rather trust is fully realizing that one does NOT need to be n control, that worrying or being fearful is counter-productive to a peaceful mind and heart.

I would suggest Robert, to find a quiet place with perhaps some soft relaxing music playing and give yourself away. Just let go of your fears and feel Fathers gentle hand on your heart. He is the giver and source of all peace. Peace has no place for fear and this is where the light of love resides.

I hope my rambling makes just a little sense.  :dunno2:

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

Julie-   thank you very much for your  detailed response!!!  Not rambling at all    very  wise   practical and helpful analysis actually!!!   I have been able to put to use     many of the examples you gave, for instance  doing public speaking  teaching and such. i can trust the outcome and    let the fears trhat go with    attempting these things be under control.  I  very much resonate with your   mentioning how we seek to  be lil gods and fight upstream wanting to    control  everything  lol    Because of my life experience with   losing my dad at  a young age then ;losing other  important people to  death   i just have a hyper sensitivity to   fear of it happening, especially      recently when i   diwscovered  i had a malignant melAnoam mole same  cancer that killed my father.

How do you and   anyone else who   wants to respond handle  just  castimng all your  fear and anxiety onto God as Peter says??    I have had  very special moments a few times  where God just  surrounded me with His love and    grace and it was most amazing    thing ever!!!!  Trouble is    i just seem to find those nooks and crannies   where     insecurity and   doubt of   having His love and grace at all times no matter what even when i struggle with   compulsive sins or   addictive   ones  i   get the fear  feelings again as though it is on autopilot. 

I have been   seeking to deal with  fear for as long as i can remember    i guess maybe i should  see it as a thorn in the flesh and   realize for me it   always a challenge and God knows understands and will    carry me through even when the fear  seems to  blot other things out  Does that make sense????     Thanks again     very  gateful for your   words Julie :)

Quote from: Robert32 on November 19, 2013, 02:50:14 AM
I have been   seeking to deal with  fear for as long as i can remember    i guess maybe i should  see it as a thorn in the flesh and   realize for me it   always a challenge and God knows understands and will    carry me through even when the fear  seems to  blot other things out  Does that make sense????     Thanks again     very  gateful for your   words Julie :)

It took me a LOOONG time for my emotions to line up with knowledge of all saved. Emotions are habit, just like anything else. We are creatures of habit and I think our emotions are part of that.

We shouldn't have an overwhelming sense of fear if we sin. No, I think what the Bible teaches is a healthy concern over where our sins could be pointing us. James talked about the tongue as a fire which can spread to the rest of the body, and that we should cut off the offending members and throw them in the dump. Spiritually speaking that means that everyone has sin. The important part is to do the work of keeping our bodies in line with our hearts to keep the fire from spreading and destroying us.

God is not the one who hurts us, we hurt ourselves. That is why Jesus says that we are in danger of Gehenna fire when we say "fool" to our brother. He means the danger is that our tongue can lead us to other acts of hate against our brother and encompass our lives.

That is something we indeed should be fearful about, to not allow sin to overtake our course of life into a direction that throws us off course in this race we run.

I think that we humans are emotional creatures and when we are young (in spirit) God tends to fill us full of joy and we bounce along like little kids. After a while I heard less from God and this made me wonder if He had cast me away.

As I later found out (from the Holy Spirit) was that He was "growing me up"! He was teaching me to use the weapons He had given me to slay those dragons. Fear denies God because it casts doubt into our souls. Fear is always a lie.

All the best Robert :banana:
Jock.