Experiencing the New Birth When You Were Raised as a Christian

[Graph1159]

Hi everyone,
It seems to me that the classic interpretation of being born again best fits the experience of people who were not raised as Christians and were seriously entrenched in various sins before they came to believe in Christ. After their conversion, they testify of a sharp distinction between the old life and the new life. After their conversion, they have new power to live for God that they didn't have before. They have the Spirit leading them and testifying to them that they are now children of God as Paul described in Romans 8.

However, over the past year I have been trying to understand how the born again theme applies to my own life. My earliest memories in life come from the age of four. My parents told me about God and Christ, and we started going to church when I was about seven years old. Being in church caused Christianity to have a significant presence in my thought life, and I believed in the Gospel largely because I associated Christianity with good people and unbelief with bad people (I have heard that this simplistic divide between good guys and bad guys is typical of how kids view the world).

Anyhow, I went through different stages of psychological development, and despite some behavioral issues, I had a real desire to be a faithful Christian. But some Biblical themes such as the flesh vs. the spirit, or the old self vs. the new self, have been difficult for me to relate to. The reason is that, in my childhood, things that are often attributed to the "natural man," such as psychology and temptation, developed in my consciousness alongside my faith in the Gospel. Thus, I do not sense the clear divide between the old self and the new self that other Christians testify of.

Although I have been aware of this ambiguity for a long time, I did not pay a lot of attention to it until about a year ago, when I came to believe that, in order to progress to the next spiritual phase of my life, I would have to get a clearer understanding of the new creation as it relates to my own self. So, I have really tried to focus my mind on the transformative nature of Christ's death and resurrection and believe this to be the reality for my own life.

But I still feel that my life isn't fully "connecting" with this belief. I have thought about James 2:26,

"For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is also dead."

On one hand, there are works in my life to show that I am a believer. But I don't feel as if my faith brings forth these works from the new nature inside. Instead, it feels like a strained situation where my mind drives me to do something so that I feel alright about myself as a Christian.

If any of you have had an experience like mine, I would like to hear any advice that you may have.

Samuel

[Dandelion]

I, too, was a believer all of my life. I feel that I have only fairly recently, really came to understand the Bible verse of the conversation of Nicodemus and Jesus.

Mine was a slow, steady transformation. I came from a twisted concept of religion and God, from my family, but I attended a very nice Catholic school as a child, with some very godly teachers. My principal was really my role model for my life, rather than any family members. I thank God He sent her to me, as she was an incredible woman, who truly lived in the Spirit. But, of course, then I did not understand that.

I think the best journey is just to continually seek Him, and though the road will almost certainly be winding, treacherous, and very possibly long, the light just keeps becoming brighter and brighter, and the darkness, one day will appear to be mostly behind us.

As my quote says, seek and you shall find, knock and it will be open to you. Along the way, we need to trust Him with our lives. I don't think we can truly know Him unless we realize at some point, this is what He asks of us. Let go of this world and put your life in His hands. As long as we hold onto this world, we cannot really be born again.  A very appropriate analogy. Just free fall, into His arms. He is waiting to catch you.

My two cents.   :2c:

D.

[sheila]

imo it is a 'growing and maturing'..and we must remember it is He that will appear again 'seperate' from sin,unto us...and He who will

seperate us from our sin. like the wheat/tares in the field can not be fully distinguished until maturity,so,too,He said let them grow

togather,lest by pulling up the tares,ye uproot the wheat.

  it is the same with His teaching the difference between a servant and son...while a child the son differ's not from the servant.....

   the servant does not remain in the household forever..but the son does and is heir.

     I,too,went through a time....when I 'did the right thing" not because it was in my heart...but because He said it was the right

  thing to do. I remember praying unto Him at one particular time about it.  Father,I want to be obedient to you..and do what pleases

you,but Father please remember..if I moan/groan or complain of it/or begrudge.that it is just my flesh doing such..and my spirit is

willing. so Father please pay no attention to such. at times I found myself doing what I really did NOT desire..because He said so,

  and He understands....when He prayed that this 'cup' may pass from Him.....He subjected His own desire unto the Father's.


   It is God who makes it grow..God who plants..God who seperates..God who has created all things..and makes all things new.

   the 'new' birth..is not according to the 'will' of man..but the Birth is of 'THE WILL OF GOD"   and He does not 'bring to birth..and then

  shut up the womb"...BUT  BRINGS FORTH DELIVERANCE.


    and ps...men [especially the 'religious' ]often have this false image in their mind of what appears 'holy and approved' of God

   a certain 'sanctimoniousness'  but Jesus showed us the 'sinner' man beating his chest and hanging his head requesting mercy

was 'more righteous' than the man who may have appeared more righteous in the eyes of men.

   for He has chosen the foolish and lowly things in order to put the wise[in their own eyes] to shame.

    ...the spirit of the Lord be with you..teach you and guide you....

[marie glen]

Even as born again, we are very flawed.. I truly believe the answer to all things, is more of HIM.. Jesus said, "if you being imperfect know how to give good gifts to your children, won't the Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask?" The way I think of His Spirit is as love.. overflowing love.. true caring about and love for our fellow persons.. Sure I quit excesses, etc after coming to faith, but the biggest change, to me, was instead of somewhat 'fearing' others and competing with others, or feeling envious, etc.. the new birth replaces all those with love.. sets free! I consider spiritual change in heart and mind to also be "works"
:smile:
He is the vine.. fruit does not struggle to grow, it simply abides on the vine.. (we are still flawed/not yet perfected however, until resurrection day at His return)

[jabcat]

I've had similar graph.  raised in a Christian home, dad preacher.  Even though around it much, I always had the idea though that it didn't just "rub off" on me - that it still came down to a moment that must happen in my own heart.  Resisted for awhile.

Even though I didn't live that "classic" lost life to which you allude, to where I could point back to a "oh I was so bad and drowning in my sins, but my salvation made the difference between night and day", I still reached a point to where I felt conviction and knew I needed to call on Jesus to save me.  Still, yes, I went though a lot of questioning, including that whole "since I wasn't a murderer etc., how am I sure I'm saved".  Had to keep going back to things like "whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved" - and not always count on feelings or dramatic differences in my life, but just hold to what the scriptures say about believing and calling on the Lord - more of a faith thing.

I also have done a lot of works and put forth a lot of effort, only quite a few years later beginning to get glimpses of mercy, grace (unmerited favor), and "standing on the promises".  I honestly can't say I've attained or conquered all of this - still day to day.  Hopefully trusting more, needing to love more, depending on Him.  Blessings.

[Graph1159]

Thank you for the replies and for sharing your own experiences. I think the theme which all of you alluded to is that the new birth and spiritual growth are God's work in us and we need to trust in Him to carry this out. I believe this is true and that I should focus in that direction.

[jabcat]

Trust, looking to Him.

Saved (belief on Him as Savior, become child of God Jn 1:12)
being saved (His continued work in us, growing, maturing)
will be saved (completion; "to wit, the redemption of our body").   

:thumbsup:

[jabcat]

http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/sozo/msg189963/#msg189963

[Caffus]

I believe faith, that shows no change in a life, is not true faith. True faith produces good works on it's own. One with true faith longs to please the Lord out of love and gratitude, not fear. We are all loved unconditionally as in 1 Cor 13...once He chooses to give us faith to truly believe and accept it....the power of this love begins to work on and through us. The works that are forced are not out of true faith and they aren't lasting. Well..thats how I see it. :declare:

[Ross]

" It is God who makes it grow..God who plants..God who seperates..God who has created all things..and makes all things new.

   the 'new' birth..is not according to the 'will' of man..but the Birth is of 'THE WILL OF GOD"   and He does not 'bring to birth..and then

  shut up the womb"...BUT  BRINGS FORTH DELIVERANCE. "

Amen!!

Throughout the history of the bible there are demonstrations about personal effort versus God's provision.
Ismael through Abraham's effort; Isaac through God's provision. Look at the results happening even now because of that clash.
The most blessed Joshua was a living demonstration about total reliance on where to go and what to do.
Jesus was the prime example of living In God and God in Him.
In our family in the flesh we had no say in our being born, or what position we had. We get no say in our physical birth, yet try to claim a say in our spiritual birth.The most classic statement Christ made about being literally spiritually born again was in John 3 when discussing this with Nicodemus.

Looking at the twist of the doctrines of the churches shows the maximising of attempts to earn salvation; which effectively wipes out what Christ came to do and what He actually achieved.

1 Cor 15;22 " For as in Adam ALL die, so in Christ will ALL be made alive; but each in his own order."

Paul admits this as being totally the work of Christ.
1 Cor 15;10  By the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace which was toward me has not been without fruit, but I laboured more abundantly that all of them- YET NOT I, BUT THE GRACE OF GOD WITH ME."

The biggest promise about our armour and protective shield of faith is in Ephesians where we are to wear our protection.
We are also told to be of one body, one faith, one baptism, one God who is Father of ALL.
That one body is Christ- His faith, His works, His baptism.
The shield of protection is the faith of Christ, which surpasses the works of Satan.
The helmet is the knowing this salvation cannot fail because Christ completely absolved us.
We are righteous because of Christ, hence cannot fail.

Whilst I was attending church I always had a sense of failure. Or wondered if I had confessed every little mistake.
Self effort was weak and incapable of peace.
The completeness of what Christ did resolves every single flaw and heightens what love is actually all about.
Running to Him without fear of rejection totally provides peace and security; just like a little child running to his mum.
Probably why Christ says to come to Him as little children. He is infinitely greater than what we are currently capable of doing or becoming through self-effort.

I love Eph 3;14,15 " For this reason I kneel before the Father, from Whom EVERY family in heaven and on earth derives it's name."
Looking at the way a family should work and encourage each other highlights out real position in the spiritual world to come.
Joint heirs with Jesus.
Amen!!!!!

[Ross]

P.s Probably why Paul says " Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."
Also why he rejoices in his weakness so that he cannot attempt to take credit for what Christ is doing.

[Aerex]

I believe faith, that shows no change in a life, is not true faith. True faith produces good works on it's own. One with true faith longs to please the Lord out of love and gratitude, not fear. We are all loved unconditionally as in 1 Cor 13...once He chooses to give us faith to truly believe and accept it....the power of this love begins to work on and through us. The works that are forced are not out of true faith and they aren't lasting. Well..thats how I see it. :declare:

Can you describe what you mean by change? Does it mean that my desire and propensity to sin will  go away. What hope is there for me if I am a cruel and wicked person if I can't stop? I don't think I have stopped sinning but I think I am more merciful and gracious. The way I approach things like my enemies is far different than the secular world.  It is my perspective that has changed but does that mean I have changed?

[Lazarus Short]

Can you describe what you mean by change? Does it mean that my desire and propensity to sin will  go away. What hope is there for me if I am a cruel and wicked person if I can't stop? I don't think I have stopped sinning but I think I am more merciful and gracious. The way I approach things like my enemies is far different than the secular world.  It is my perspective that has changed but does that mean I have changed?

Some are changed in an hour, some in a day, but for most of us it is the work (His work) of a lifetime.  Be not like the men in the parable who worked all day for the same wage as those who worked an hour.  It is God's doing, he He knows what He is doing.  :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny:

[sheila]

 hey Laz...don't forget the 'big' change...in the twinkling of an eye!


   my Mom 'Made me" brush my teeth...she inculcated that in me.  repeated admonitions..in the OT  Deut 6;7    Impress them on

  your children[they are to be upon the hearts] Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road. When you

  lie down and when you get up..........be careful that you do not forget the Lord.

   tie them as symbols on your hands[what we do] and bind them on your foreheads[your mind/thoughts]


   that legalistic religious organization was real big on monitoring these changes...people get their own ideas of what kind of

   obvious changes their fellow brother's and sister's ought to be exhibiting......but the kingdom of heaven does not come

  with startling observableness..for it is in your midst.   Which of us can see inside the heart of a man? who knows what motivates

  a man more than God who causes you to will and to do His pleasure.? Samson's parents were alarmed at his apparent interest

  in that girl[they did not know God was behind it] they were pretty sure it was of the devil,I'd reckkon.


  a lady in that organization told me it was not God's will that I go to nursing school...everything fell miraculously into place

for me to go.   what do we know about God's will in people's lives...are we measuring? could any of us really measure up.?

   
    Pray in secret..not like the hypocrites! don't let your right hand know what your left is doing.......give gifts in secret and the

  Father who see's what is done in secret will reward you....how's anybody going to judge those things but God?


    I was aware at the age of 19...that if by some miracle I never sinned again the rest of my entire life..that I would not measure up

   is that what Grace is about? measuring up?   I have found it's often the people you would least expect to be there for you when you are

'down and out" that are there for you. And the ones you would expect..are nowhere to be found.  see the parable of the feast..when all

  begged off.

....for we who shall remain alive at His appearing..shall all be changed in the twinkling of an eye.

    ........a new creation....we have the 'token' of it now


   30 fold..60 and 100 fold...somes choked out...birds get it before it has time to be fruitful..etc. Is He comparing people to

  people? maybe....but in my expierence..I have missed opportunities to be fruitful at times..either not understanding[ignorance

of what the holy spirit is trying to accomplish..or due to my being hard set on something.]


   we are admonished time and again to be aware of the pitfalls that can make us unfruitful....but is the purpose of that so we can

  measure and judge fellow believers?  God forbid!   I keep hearing 'judge not,lest ye be judged!'.............

   a tree is known by it's fruit...the TOKOGAE[judging] is death.......the TOL has no death in it..it is the free gift...the Grace of

our God through Jesus Christ. the TOKOGAE is Paul saying....the good that I desire to do..I do not do..that which I do not

desire to do,I do.  sin's law in my flesh...then it is no longer I that sin..but the sin dwelling in my flesh[good/evil mix=unlawful=

all men bound up in disobedience]  But PRAISE BE TO GOD WHO SHALL DELIVER ME FROM THIS BODY OF DEATH!!IS TOL!!!


   How do you ovrcome this world?..this death sentence of being bound up in disobedience?  By believing the Son of God who

says your sins are forgiven and God has delighted in mercy unto all men...turning unto Him. recieving the Holy spirit.


   the former things shall not be remembered when the new creation comes.


    I take my shelter in the secret place of the MOST HIGH....some may not see this...they may think I am naked and exposed

as a 'sinner'...and not realize His wings are covering me.   I'm no mother teresa...and I'll never be more than what 'HE" makes

of me.   I cringe in embarassment at what the people in the community used to say about me.....'she's reeeaal religious,isn't she?"


      True faith...o'ye of little faith....great faith[I have not found such faith in all of Israel]   why is it the religious leaders and

  the bulk of the worshipping believers had so 'little' faith/or none in Christ...but the dross,offscouring 'sinners' of the people

had such great faith?  some 'appeared' holy..some  'appeared' as sinners.  why Jesus himself appeared as a friend to sinners

and as a glutton and winebiber.   Appearances can be very deceiving when the whole world is blinded...


    REND YOU HEART AND NOT YOUR GARMENT

    Do you love and delight in kindness/goodness and all that is decent an noble? Do you hate and grieve all that is cruel and wicked

base and depraved?[even when your the one that said/did the unkindness or cruelty]  Is your heart broke over the horrific

nightmare of wickedness and suffering run rampant in this earth?

        THE WHOLE CREATION GROANS....for the revealing of the Sons of God.

[jabcat]

I think as long as we start at the cross - heeding the call of the Holy Spirit to call on Jesus as Savior - then He will lead from there..looking to Him to fulfill His works in our life.  Surrender is a key IMO, and one for me that's very hard to do.  Trusting and believing in Him, not leaning to my own will and understanding etc.

[Caffus]

Can you describe what you mean by change? Does it mean that my desire and propensity to sin will  go away. What hope is there for me if I am a cruel and wicked person if I can't stop? I don't think I have stopped sinning but I think I am more merciful and gracious. The way I approach things like my enemies is far different than the secular world.  It is my perspective that has changed but does that mean I have changed?

Some are changed in an hour, some in a day, but for most of us it is the work (His work) of a lifetime.  Be not like the men in the parable who worked all day for the same wage as those who worked an hour.  It is God's doing, he He knows what He is doing.  :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny:

Yes, I agree with that..it is God work.

[Shev]

Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day. (1 Corinthians 4:16)

I always see it as Adam being reckoned as dead, and Christ within being formed within us and maturing. Though we have to work out our salvation "with fear/awe and trembling" I still think that the seed within us is going to produce fruit after its kind, and that those God foreknew, He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.

I think there is a yearning in all of us to be fully mature now, as we see Jesus as the pattern, a man who had the Spirit without measure, and we long to be found in total conformity to His image even now. Yet even as an earthly babe must grow into a child, and then to a teen, a so forth until he stands a mature man, and cannot bypass any of this process, so we must experience each season, building upon the last and renewing our inner man, whether we fully perceive the stage of metamorphosis or not at any given time.

I love where the scripture says that we died, and our life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is our life appears, we shall appear with Him in glory. I think sometimes we can still see the shadow of Adam in our lives, as the Spirit battles the flesh, and wonder why Adam is not looking any more like Christ today. But Adam shall never look like Christ, for Christ is a new creation that shall swallow up the old.

[Graph1159]

I agree with the principle that you all have emphasized about spiritual maturity being a process that God works in us as opposed to something we do by our own will. Over the years I have heard many warnings that we cannot just sit around and wait for God to push us into action. However, it seems that for some Christians such as myself, acting with a "religious" or fearful mentality is, in many cases, the only alternative to being idle. As Caffus said, works coming from fear often do not last. That puts you back at square one, before you decided to be more responsible.

I have heard many believers testify that they are not religious (some even "hate" religion), but that they exercise their will to obey God out of love, sensing a personal relationship with Him. However, it seems that this third mentality is not immediately accessible to everybody.

What I am coming to believe is that the door to this third way of life cannot be opened with our will, but is instead a door that God has to open. Thank you all again for sharing your experiences and insights, as these posts give me more assurance about the direction that I should be going with my faith and understanding of the Scriptures.

[sheila]

wow...really liked that post,Graph.   what I open no one can close..what I close ,no-one can open.  I stand at the door and knock,

  whoever opens..the Father and  will come in and sup with them.  Rev..to the church of Philadelphia...behold,I place before you

  an open door that no-one can shut.

   many,many years ago..I was told of the Holy spirit this 'there will not be a door shut to you...that another one will not be opened"

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: If you have not had the baptism in the Holy Ghost, I would say this is what you are hungering for. The HG does the works, spiritual works, that you were created to partake of and participate in. Ask Him to baptize you, or find other believers that have received it, and ask them to pray for you. It's a free gift, and He is the baptizer. It's make a world of difference in your walk and quickens your spirit so much you can't ever be the same. Spiritual maturity without it, is impossible.  My  :2c: blessings to you in your walk....

[GodIsLove]

Re: baptism in the Holy Spirit...I have questions...I had an encounter with God/the Holy Spirit 5 years ago that centered around me becoming aware of and repenting of my sins and I did pray and ask for God to guide me. I felt changed in a lot of ways immediately after  (the presence of the holy spirit?) but I have continued to grow in my faith and walk with God. When I think of baptism of the Holy Spirit I think of speaking in tongues, etc. is that what you mean? I think the problem with praying for this is the frustration that will come if it doesn't happen. My friend converted from Catholicism to a small church with a self ordained pastor who preaches hellfire and brimstone and casts out evil spirits and people get baptized in the HS and my friend is upset because even with all of her prayer and desire, she hasn't been able to experience the HS baptism.  I think it is a gift from God so if it isn't given on his terms it just isn't meant to be (at that particular time anyway), do you think this is the case? And what would you call my experience? I wouldn't say it was HGB but it was a spiritual experience for sure...similar to what people say when they were born again? I am still upset if I miss the mark (eg if I lose my patience) and I often ask for forgiveness from family members and God. I think we will always sin in this life but it's the desire to walk with God and the desire to be more like Christ that are important. Allowing God to continually work in our lives and know that He is in charge.

[Ross]

" I think it is a gift from God so if it isn't given on his terms it just isn't meant to be (at that particular time anyway), "

" I wouldn't say it was HGB but it was a spiritual experience for sure...similar to what people say when they were born again?"

I.M.O and experience. I went to 'spiritual awakenings' but never woke up. At the time I thought I was missing out, not believing enough.
Now I realise I was being protected whilst seeing another form of personal effort versus grace.

Many years have passed with much correction of my values and beliefs. Each point made to me releases bondage and failure and reinforces what Christ has done for me and mankind.

Much in church today is showmanship, not truth.

[GodIsLove]

"Many years have passed with much correction of my values and beliefs. Each point made to me releases bondage and failure and reinforces what Christ has done for me and mankind.

Much in church today is showmanship, not truth."

Agreed.  Thanks for sharing your perspective :)

[Ross]

You are more than welcome.
The truth literally sets us free from law, sin, and death,
Have a great day.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Yes that is exactly what I mean. Initial salvation is the infilling, baptism in the HG is the covering. The baptisms are represented by the gold covering both the inside and the outside of the Ark of the covenant, which is made of wood (speaks of our carnal nature, men are as trees). The spirit is the candle of the Lord, the baptism lights that candle, thus the tongues of fire that came upon the heads on the day of Pentecost. This baptism brings the power to do the works, the HG does the works. The works are the operation of the gifts listed in Corinthians.

Like salvation, it is a FREE GIFT, intended for EVERY believer, an integral part of the new covenant. The gift is for those that are afar off, as many as the Lord our God shall call. Are you called? Then you've got a free gift waiting for you, the earnest of your inheritance.

Do not be discouraged if the evidence you received does not manifest initially. It took me 2 years, primarily because no one explained it to me, and I had no idea how it was to come, or what my part in it was, so my carnal mind kept blocking it. BELIEVE AND RECEIVE is your part. God will do the rest. Blessings to you.....