If a man plans but the Lord directs his steps... and if it depends not on human effort but on God who shows mercy... do you think that means that everything in the universe is pre-ordained? All of our actions have been scripted from the foundations of the world?
And if this might be true... then how do statements like "Ask and you shall receive" ... or "Nothing is impossible with God" come in if everything is already fixed?
I personally believe the outcome is pre-ordained. And that God uses everything to bring about a good purpose. However, I also believe He places us within situations that require we make choices - within the parameters He sets, i.e., the options He sets before us. It's by the mistakes (and "successes") that we learn and are brought closer to Him - that our wills are conformed to His. Sometimes failure, heartache, loss and pain are great "teachers". He brought me to UR during one of the most painful periods of my life. He's giving us an experience of evil (whereby we will learn to differentiate between light and darkness, good and bad, and more fully appreciate the difference?). I believe much of that surely must still happen - maybe for most, even - the other side of the grave; God's purpose of the ages and all those things we discuss from time to time. The Lake of Fire, etc.
All that being said, I still wonder if it fully answers the questions about God directing our steps, it's not up to us but up to Him, etc. It seems I have a general personal belief about all this (as stated above) but when it comes to filling in every blank, dotting every 'i' and crossing every 't' about it, I still don't know how it always fits together. Glass darkly...
PN, this how I see it.
Long ago someone build a huge maze for his sheep. The maze was really very huge. Millions of corridors. The maze had only one exit. Above the doorway was written "The fold". Anyway that man put his sheep in that maze. The sheep scattered all took their own route. Left. Right. Dead end. Reverse. And finally... one by one they entered the fold. They freely chose their own route within the design limitations of the maze. But did they really chose the exit?
QuoteI personally believe the outcome is pre-ordained. And that God uses everything to bring about a good purpose. However, I also believe He places us within situations that require we make choices - within the parameters He sets, i.e., the options He sets before us. It's by the mistakes (and "successes") that we learn and are brought closer to Him - that our wills are conformed to His. Sometimes failure, heartache, loss and pain are great "teachers". He brought me to UR during one of the most painful periods of my life. He's giving us an experience of evil (whereby we will learn to differentiate between light and darkness, good and bad, and more fully appreciate the difference?). I believe much of that surely must still happen - maybe for most, even - the other side of the grave; God's purpose of the ages and all those things we discuss from time to time. The Lake of Fire, etc.
Good points, James. :thumbsup: ... its just that sometimes I'm not sure can I fully trust God? But in the end, just as Nebuchadnezzar has acknowledged it we too will all realize that all His ways are just and perfect...
It's just that with verses like "consigned all men to disobedience..."
"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy.." makes me question, are we just puppets in this grand drama? :mshock:
QuoteLong ago someone build a huge maze for his sheep. The maze was really very huge. Millions of corridors. The maze had only one exit. Above the doorway was written "The fold". Anyway that man put his sheep in that maze. The sheep scattered all took their own route. Left. Right. Dead end. Reverse. And finally... one by one they entered the fold. They freely chose their own route within the design limitations of the maze. But did they really chose the exit?
:thumbsup: Good points too, WW ... I think we have our own individual choices among that maze He places us on...
Deuteronomy 30:19 >>
This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live
Only thing is, we get to choose from the choices HE GIVES US and the choices are always made because of INFLUENCES, OBSTICLES, AND OTHER THINGS HE PUTS IN OUR PATHS.
CHB
Quote from: jabcat on August 13, 2011, 07:08:48 AM
I personally believe the outcome is pre-ordained. And that God uses everything to bring about a good purpose. However, I also believe He places us within situations that require we make choices - within the parameters He sets, i.e., the options He sets before us. It's by the mistakes (and "successes") that we learn and are brought closer to Him - that our wills are conformed to His. Sometimes failure, heartache, loss and pain are great "teachers". He brought me to UR during one of the most painful periods of my life. He's giving us an experience of evil (whereby we will learn to differentiate between light and darkness, good and bad, and more fully appreciate the difference?). I believe much of that surely must still happen - maybe for most, even - the other side of the grave; God's purpose of the ages and all those things we discuss from time to time. The Lake of Fire, etc.
All that being said, I still wonder if it fully answers the questions about God directing our steps, it's not up to us but up to Him, etc. It seems I have a general personal belief about all this (as stated above) but when it comes to filling in every blank, dotting every 'i' and crossing every 't' about it, I still don't know how it always fits together. Glass darkly...
This is how I believe. God knows the ending. He is the director of all things. Yet, we do have some freedom to move within his Sovereignty and experience evil...and the consequences of our own choices. These consequences are a fire of purification. I have a hard time blaming my sin on God..."God made me do it". But, He certainly allows me to fall on my face from time to time. Because each time, He stands me back up...brushes me off, I learn and grow.
Amen Shawn and C.
PN, I know what you're saying. That's why I have a general belief, but can't always, in every single situation, figure out the details. Through this thread though, since last night, God is reminding me to thank Him and give Him credit for the blessings - not just figuring "a good thing happened" - but HE did it. :thumbsup:
Thank you Father.
Quote from: jabcat on August 13, 2011, 07:08:48 AM
I personally believe the outcome is pre-ordained. And that God uses everything to bring about a good purpose. However, I also believe He places us within situations that require we make choices - within the parameters He sets, i.e., the options He sets before us. It's by the mistakes (and "successes") that we learn and are brought closer to Him - that our wills are conformed to His. Sometimes failure, heartache, loss and pain are great "teachers". He brought me to UR during one of the most painful periods of my life. He's giving us an experience of evil (whereby we will learn to differentiate between light and darkness, good and bad, and more fully appreciate the difference?). I believe much of that surely must still happen - maybe for most, even - the other side of the grave; God's purpose of the ages and all those things we discuss from time to time. The Lake of Fire, etc.
All that being said, I still wonder if it fully answers the questions about God directing our steps, it's not up to us but up to Him, etc. It seems I have a general personal belief about all this (as stated above) but when it comes to filling in every blank, dotting every 'i' and crossing every 't' about it, I still don't know how it always fits together. Glass darkly...
Amen! :grin: I wish the Lord would give me the ability to say things a forthright as that! Very GOOD and nail hitting :bigGrin:
Me too Micah. :sigh: Good explaining jabcat.
CHB
C, I've been blessed by you, and micah I just now enjoyed your last post in the "Genesis" thread :thumbsup:. We've all got our own "pre-ordained" :bigGrin: special place in God's kingdom - none more important than the other. The first is last, and the last is first. Blessings to you.
QuoteWe've all got our own "pre-ordained" :bigGrin: special place in God's kingdom - none more important than the other. The first is last, and the last is first. Blessings to you.
:thumbsup:
I don't think all of our acts are scripted at all. I think all things work together for good to those who love God nd are called according to His purpose. I think the broad strokes of God's plan for the kosmos and us as individuals is written according to foreknowledge and God's purpose. i think the way predestination and free will integrate through out the times and seasons and ages between the eternities is way beyond our ability to kno.