I'm in the middle of preparing something for my mother. In that preparation I realize I don't know the answers to so many things (who would of thunk it? :grin: ) Anyways, one verse gives me problems...
Just as it is written, 'Jacob I love, But Esau I hated.'"
Is this symbolic language? I don't have an answer but I have seen it used by some Calvanist thinkers that God choses who he loves and chooses who he hates.
Thoughts?
:cloud9: I've yet to find one thing in there that DOESN'T have a symbolic aspect to understanding it.
That said, Esau sells his inheritance to hang onto the flesh, in essence, and it is this selfish nature that God hates. My :2c:
Quote from: Cardinal on May 30, 2011, 01:07:27 AM
:cloud9: I've yet to find one thing in there that ISN'T doesn't have a symbolic aspect to understanding it.
That said, Esau sells his inheritance to hang onto the flesh, in essence, and it is this selfish nature that God hates. My :2c:
I like that response, I like it alot. I also believe "that ISN'T doesn't have a symbolic aspect to understanding it." is very true. Praise the Lord!
:cloud9: Sorry.....can tell I was short on time when I wrote that :mblush: :grin:
That is the common teaching...God loves the sinner but hates the sin. With that said, I find it hard to explain verses where the scriptures explicitly talk about God hating an individual because of their sin. I don't see these references in the New Testament except when Paul was speaking about Esau.
http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.org/BOOKS/birthright/Chapter2.cfm
Quote from: Cardinal on May 30, 2011, 05:13:44 AM
:cloud9: Sorry.....can tell I was short on time when I wrote that :mblush: :grin:
I find no place that you erred in your post. :cloud9:
It is a very good question Shawn and I've often wondered about myself.
Thanks for the answers that were given too. Short but enlightening. :thumbsup:
Perhaps God did indeed hated Esau. But notice the word hat-ed, which means it is the past instead of hates, so God hate-did Esau for "x"amount of time.
Esau rejected Gods blessing and messed up Gods plans, but thankfully God had another plan up His sleeve.
Ok, water and oil...nope*************hate and love.......nope. We need to keep looking, Cardinal I am comoforted with the words you gave. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: thinktank on May 31, 2011, 01:12:13 AM
Esau rejected Gods blessing and messed up Gods plans, but thankfully God had another plan up His sleeve.
Good thing God had plan "B" up his sleeve. Too bad God didn't first know about that darn Esau.
Quote from: Texas Son on May 31, 2011, 01:05:30 AM
It is a very good question Shawn and I've often wondered about myself.
Thanks for the answers that were given too. Short but enlightening. :thumbsup:
Like everything the teaching of God hates the sin but loves the sinner is seen as false teaching in many circles. I would love scriptural evidence that God does indeed love every person agape. It becomes tough to answer these questions when I can't point someone to scripture.
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 31, 2011, 02:58:19 AM
Ok, water and oil...nope*************hate and love.......nope. We need to keep looking, Cardinal I am comoforted with the words you gave. :HeartThrob:
I'm glad you are comforted, but keep in mind the word is not just made of feathers, but is a living sword.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on May 31, 2011, 04:45:40 AM
Quote from: thinktank on May 31, 2011, 01:12:13 AM
Esau rejected Gods blessing and messed up Gods plans, but thankfully God had another plan up His sleeve.
Good thing God had plan "B" up his sleeve. Too bad God didn't first know about that darn Esau.
Time is a complex business. But scripture says God knows us in the womb. So he would know about Esau beforehand, but through complex time dimensions I perceive a window of opportunity was open to Esau to receive the birthright, being the firstborn, it was his to receive.
By tradition it was Esau's, but he sold it to satisfy his belly of earthly appetite.
However your messages, here, are blowing in opposing directions, either Esau "messed up" God's plan or he didn't — it can't be both.
I see God working 2 paths in these mens lives, which collided with each other. One path which was Esau's crashed due to his Earthly belly, while Jacobs, flourished, due to his faithfulness.
So I'm saying that God possibly hated Esau because he perverted the normal way of the first born being blessed and if it wasn't for Jacob then Esau could have messed things up for God. Of course we know that God is wise and would have foreseen this, but Gods faithfulness and wisdom that does not excuse Esau from the mistakes he made and any "unseen" damages and consequences, which we as human beings are unaware of, but God sees all things and knows and sees the consequences of all actions.
:2c:
I think it would be good to see any other examples in the word, to see if scripture says that God hated anyone else apart from Esau, it might add to the understanding.
Quote from: shawn on May 31, 2011, 06:05:37 AM
Quote from: Texas Son on May 31, 2011, 01:05:30 AM
It is a very good question Shawn and I've often wondered about myself.
Thanks for the answers that were given too. Short but enlightening. :thumbsup:
Like everything the teaching of God hates the sin but loves the sinner is seen as false teaching in many circles. I would love scriptural evidence that God does indeed love every person agape. It becomes tough to answer these questions when I can't point someone to scripture.
Hi Shawn,
I went through this process a while back. There are scriptures that taken together say that God loves all, but there are always weasel words like "world" or "all" that some will say don't really mean all people. Anyway, here are some of those scriptures:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends.
Putting it together: God sacrificed his son for the whole world because He loved the world (all people). He did this not just for us but everyone. There is no greater act than to sacrifice your self for others, and Jesus did this for everyone. Therefore Jesus sacrifice on the cross was the greatest act of love possible FOR ALL PEOPLE.
We can go on to show that this truly was for all people:
Luke 3:6 And all people will see God's salvation.
Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
etc. you know all the verses I'm sure.
The point is to show that Jesus sacrifice truly was for all people (not just the elect as the Calvinists claim). Once you have proven that (through scripture), then it is a foregone conclusion that God loves all people because there is no greater love than to sacrifice yourself for another.
Here's another good verse, all by itself:
Psalm 145:9 The LORD is good to all;
he has compassion on all he has made.
Goodness and compassion are both part of love, and He does this to all.
The problem is people always have a twisted image of what God is. They either think God is like a human, and can't get what He wants, and is petty and vengeful (ie. God is "good" and "compassionate" to man by letting him live up until the point He throws them into fire forever), or, they think He is like the Calvinists say, and God doesn't really love everybody. All doesn't mean all.
If a person is stuck in one of these mindsets, it doesn't really matter what the scripture says, they will fit it to their (graven) image somehow.