I don't know whether it is the right forum to ask because I don't know what Universalits believe... Some churches reject speaking in tongues, others not... What about you? Do you speak in tongues and how do you feel doing so?
I'll say for myself later in this thread...
Oh, yes, I should also add that I've heard there's yet churches where pastors preach that if you don't speak in tongues you don't have the Spirit and you are not saved... So let's add to this thread: is it necessary to speak in tongues in order to be saved?
Quoteis it necessary to speak in tongues in order to be saved
No.
The evidence of which is speaking in tongues is a Pentecostal/Charismatic doctrine and is not founded on scripture.
Tongues (known languages but unknown to the believer) is for a sign to non-believers who will hear a word in their own language.
Private tongues is for self edification and communion with God but some may not all agree.
The problem is that in Pentecostal/Charismatic circles, because of the evidence notion, some people "learn" this and IMO is merely incoherent babbling. Some have true tongues and when you hear it there will be proper "words" and "phonetics" as in any language, not merely 10 or so words that are repeated over and over. Even Jesus taught against vain repetitions.
You may want to explore this link
A study in speaking in Tongues (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/5257/astudyof.htm)
Blessings
Quote from: B_T on August 10, 2007, 06:47:44 PM
I don't know whether it is the right forum to ask because I don't know what Universalits believe... Some churches reject speaking in tongues, others not... What about you? Do you speak in tongues and how do you feel doing so?
I'll say for myself later in this thread...
Oh, yes, I should also add that I've heard there's yet churches where pastors preach that if you don't speak in tongues you don't have the Spirit and you are not saved... So let's add to this thread: is it necessary to speak in tongues in order to be saved?
No, I don't speak in tongues. I do not have that gift nor do I have a "personal prayer language". In my church body (which, by the way, is decidedly ET), in theory, speaking in tongues is not rejected, but in practice it is not evidenced among the members.
From what I've heard from people who do pray in tongues it is a blessing to them and I would welcome it in my own life, personally. I do not believe it is necessary for salvation. I do wonder, however, if it is evidence of being filled with the Holy Spirit and that lack of it is evidence that I am hindering the Spirit's power in my own life.
I personally speak in tongues, but it is more like a personal prayer. I don't do it where I'm not suppose to do it.
There is something disturbing I have seen from other church members... And this is repeating two or the words... Maybe God knows and he has decided to give him few words... But anyway, I still continue to think that God's Spirit should not be limited to three words... And what would an unbeliever say if he enters such a church?
Quote from: B_T on August 10, 2007, 06:47:44 PM
I don't know whether it is the right forum to ask because I don't know what Universalits believe... Some churches reject speaking in tongues, others not... What about you? Do you speak in tongues and how do you feel doing so?
I'll say for myself later in this thread...
Yes. I operate out of most the gifts.
1 Corinthians 1:5-8For in him you have been enriched in every way"in all your speaking and in all your knowledge" because our testimony about Christ was confirmed in you. Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
My father grew up in midwest Canada and has a grade 7 education. He never desired to learn another language and in about 1989-1990, we were in church when all of a sudden my dad just went into a strange dilect. It was deep, and foreign, it sounded like nothing we have heard. As he was speaking it, a woman began praising God really loud and then a group of people started to jump and down, as my dad kept speaking. The praise and worship leader at the time, and that group began "Amening" at the same time, as if they were responding to statements made in this foreign tongue. It turns out my dad was speaking their native language out of Africa, it was a tribal dilect barely spoken outside Africa, even among immigrants to Canada. These people in the back were new to Canada, and they believed God told them to come, but they had been suffering and questioned if they truly heard God in their lives. My dad spoke in tongues and confirmed it in their own langauge. I was there, heard it and confirmed the witness.
1 Corinthians 12:4-11 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
From testimony and confirmatin of others, there has been message of wisdom, message of knowledge, faith, gifts of healing, miraculous powers, prophesy, distinguishing between spirits and speaking in tongues in my life and through my life. I can give you example over example of non-natural occurances and extra-sensory information, which the Lord has given me concerning times of crisis.
So speaking in tongues, whether spiritual or literal, by the Spirit is real regardless of what others may say. Cannot deny what I have seen, heard and experienced.
That doesn't mean there are counterfit gifts, I have also seen those in action.
QuoteOh, yes, I should also add that I've heard there's yet churches where pastors preach that if you don't speak in tongues you don't have the Spirit and you are not saved... So let's add to this thread: is it necessary to speak in tongues in order to be saved?
No, it is not nessesary to operate in the gifts to be saved. Even the apostle Paul said not all speak in tongues, so even from a non-universalist standpoint, those who teach that tongues are a pre-requisit to demonstrate the fulfillment of the spirit and in inference represent salvation, are wrong.
1 Corinthians 12:29-31Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?
But eagerly desire the greater gifts, and now I will show you the most excellent way.
...LOVE
Greetings
I never heard of tongues let alone heard anyone speak in them until I heard myself pray in a strange sounding language one day. That was the same day that I was baptized but it was in the morning and I was not baptized until the afternoon. It was also the beginning and the end me speaking in tongues for about 2 years until one day and while in prayer I caught myself saying a expression in what seemed to be a foreign language over and over again.
This time it sounded more like a "normal" but still foreign language so I started trying to find our what it meant. I cannot spell it but in a "Ukraine dialect" it is translated as "I love You"
Sometimes I feel moved to say it again at some part in my prayer but I am conscious that I am going to say it before I do unlike the first time when I caught myself repeating the same phrase over and over.
How I feel about it is each to their own but even though it is a spiritual gift and evidence of the Holy Spirit in someone's life IMHO it is way over emphasized amongst most of those who do it. The scriptures say that it is the least of all gifts and we are told that they will cease.
I would be interested to hear what others think of the "cease" part? 1. Does it mean in the individual after a period of time or 2. That after a period of time everyone will stop and no one will..... or 3. That the time will come when it is no longer a gift given as evidence of an anointing?
Blessings
Doug
A couple of people were disturbed about a tendency in some people to have repeated words while they're speaking in other tongues. But unless you exercise your faith with Mark 11:24, John 15:7, and John 16:23 to both ask and receive the interpretation, you really don't have a basis for alarm.
An honest question: do any of you ever repeat any English words, whether in prayer or not in a prayer context? See there, in my last sentence I repeated the word "prayer." Whoops! There I did it again!! Though that's a tongue in cheek illustration, unless the Holy Spirit illuminates your mind on the subject or the different contexts that you're either speaking into or worshipping the Father with in "giving thanks well," then you don't know one way or the other. It says in 1Corinthians 14 to pray that you would interpret, which must mean that an interpretation of even so-called devotional tongues is the perfect will of God.
Spend time with that promise from 1Corinthians 14 about it being something that you should pursue from the Lord, and then just stay focused on your thanksgiving that whatever came out was the perfect will of God that you were speaking for all of Creation, in worship to the Lord, in dealing with a situation, or in relation to "THE" plan for your life. You'd be surprised, when you get proficient in this, at how much of it is just thanksgiving, worship, and calling things that be not as though they were (Mark 11:23) until they are!
This is a wonderful area of grace, that God is able to make to abound towards those who seek Him for it (Hebrews 4:16). The tower of babel is completely undone with this and the ability to not only hear from the Lord with greater clarity but to break in on that 90% of the mind that everybody - or most everybody (i.e., I quit making this a daily confession when the Lord pointed it out as an area of shooting myself in the foot, or in the brain in this instance when everybody) claims that nobody uses that extra capacity. I know quite a few people that wouldn't have made it through Highschool, college, GREs, or Graduate School without getting adept in a hurry at drawing upon all of the resources of the Holy Spirit and of the High Priestly ministry of Jesus in this way.
There was a time before I embraced UR when I (thought I) spoke in tongues. I realize now that the tongues I was speaking was really nothing more than a bunch of empty babbling. I'm very skeptical of those who claim to speak in tongues anymore.
When it comes to speaking by The Holy Spirit, I don't think it always has to come in the form of an audible language.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
Chuck
I do pray in the spirit (tongues) regularly and have also experienced speaking in tongues (not a personal prayer language, but a manifestation of the Holy Spirit as described in I Cor. 12).
Paul described praying in the spirit as praying with our minds unfruitful as we pray the perfect will of God in a mystery. When a person speaks in tongues in a public assembly, it is for the edification of all so there should be an interpretation. These are two very different things and a lot of confusion comes when they are mixed up.
The context of tongues ceasing along with prophesy is that when that which is perfect is come then we have no more need for that which is in part. We see through a glass darkly now and only have glimpses of the unseen world of the spirit. Therefore, the Spirit helps our infirmity and assists us with these gifts. But, when we come to perfection and are changed to be like Jesus, we will know as we are known so tongues and prophesy will no longer be needed. I think it is a wrong interpretation to believe that these gifts or manifestations will pass away until the Kingdom is fully come in us and we have the full mind of Christ.
John
Quote from: ChuckK3 on August 11, 2007, 04:08:47 AM
There was a time before I embraced UR when I (thought I) spoke in tongues. I realize now that the tongues I was speaking was really nothing more than a bunch of empty babbling. I'm very skeptical of those who claim to speak in tongues anymore.
When it comes to speaking by The Holy Spirit, I don't think it always has to come in the form of an audible language.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
Chuck
There is two other gifts for that. The Message of Wisdom, and the Message of Knowledge, those are spoke in audible tongues :)
Quote from: ChuckK3 on August 11, 2007, 04:08:47 AM
There was a time before I embraced UR when I (thought I) spoke in tongues. I realize now that the tongues I was speaking was really nothing more than a bunch of empty babbling. I'm very skeptical of those who claim to speak in tongues anymore.
When it comes to speaking by The Holy Spirit, I don't think it always has to come in the form of an audible language.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
Chuck
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I Agree with that Chuck. Though not witnessing an event or situation in person some know exactly what is going on in the churches no matter what language they speak in the various churches. Remember
John in exile on the Island of Patmos? he had no church to account to, no one to witness to, no one to fellowship with yet by the holy spirit he knew exactly what was going on in the churches.
As for the question of this thread "do you speak in tongues?" No I do not speak in tongues of another language, however I believe those speaking the same language
can be understood to be saying 12 different things to 12 people though saying the same thing to all 12, it all comes down to the various levels of understanding as to weather in hearing they do not hear or weather they do.
When Adults converse in the presence of young children though the children may hear the words you speak they do not hear (receive) the full level of the message conveyed, if a solid geometry teacher goes to a first grade classroom and attempts to teach solid geometry he may as well be speaking in tongues for the most part unless the spirit brings forth a child out of due time to understand exactly what the teacher is doing and showing with his solid geometry teaching.
Peace,
Fire Walker
Personally I couldn't imagine not being able to pray in tongues. For me it opens up a myriad of realms of the Spirit as far as my prayer experience goes. No matter how down trodden I may feel I have found I can always pray and worship in the Spirit/tongues and enter into His gates of ministry both in receiving His grace and intercession for others.
I have a close friend that enjoys the deeper walk with our Lord. She lives a block from me and a couple times a month, spontaneously we will get together for prayer. When this saint prays in the Spirit I am always caught back by the power of God's presence and find myself humbled in obeisance. I can't explain it but it is a most glorious occurrence.
This below is a testimony I penned a couple years ago accounting the miraculous power wrought by praying in tongues. I hope it blesses you and gives credence to another foolish thing of God that is so misunderstood by the world and discounted by the carnal intellect.
Gabriel
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot uttered.
And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. Romans 8
The nurse was gently holding my hand as she guided me across the room to where Gabriel lay in the warming bed. I was blinded by the torrents of tears that fell from my eyes and stained my shirt. As we came to the little enclosed bed she released my hand, and after handing me some tissue to wipe my eyes ,whispered, "go and ahead and hold his hand."
As I held Gabriel's small hand, and my tears dried, I was struck with how beautiful his head and face was. He was so much prettier than my first son who had been born some two years earlier and as a matter of fact he seemed to me, to be the most beautiful new born I had ever seen. Diminutive but, oh my, so perfectly formed. I spent a few minutes in prayer and quietly told Gabriel how much I loved him before the nurse said it was time to take him to the nursery where they would make him comfortable.
In all my years I had never felt so let down and confused as I had a few minutes earlier when Gabriel had first appeared from the birth canal. It was obvious God had not answered our prayers as I first gazed upon our baby. He was just so very small and so very quiet.
My wife, Cathy had unexpectedly begun to dilate two weeks earlier and after hearing the pessimistic prognosis and receiving some drugs from the physician she was instructed to go home and to bed with the slim hope that she might possibly carry the baby to full term. Full term meant four more months. We began to pray every day along with our church for a miracle and it seemed our faith grew stronger with each day that passed. Our pleadings with God turned into thanks for a healthy baby we knew was in the making. It was however, not to be.
Now two weeks after our visit with the doctor our hopes and seemingly our prayers had been dashed. After they wheeled Gabriel out to the nursery, I held my wife's hand and we talked softly and shared our disappointment intermixed with a new flood of tears. After a bit they came to take Cathy to her room in the maternity ward and I went out to find a quiet corner in an adjoining hall. I had never felt such dark oppression since I had come to know Christ. I was bent low in my spirit as doubts of a loving and faithful God filled my soul. It seemed God's consoling spirit was no where to be found when a brother from the church silently came into view.
It was my good friend Mike, and because he was a physician he was making his rounds at the hospital that evening. As our eyes met tearfully I cried out to him, "why?". He said nothing but only laid his hand on my shoulder and prayed for a short moment in tongues, by the utterance of the Holy Spirit. Immediately the looming black clouds of depression left my mind and there was miraculous a bubbling new joy and hope that entered me. I immediately knew there was a fresh presence of God with Cathy, Gabriel and myself and his joy would somehow be expressed in this seemingly dire situation.
In the hours and days that followed my wife and I would come to marvel at God's goodness and grace manifested toward us. An hour after Mike had prayed for me, Cathy and I were allowed to hold Gabriel for a few minutes and express our love to him. The staff made Gabriel comfortable in the remaining few hours he lived.
God continued to bless us the next few days as a mortician friend donated a small Styrofoam casket and another allowed me to wallpaper his bathroom in exchange for a small engraved headstone. The small burial was just amazing as a few close friends and family gathered to give praise for a little life that seemed so brief but yet so full in it's expression of God's blessed grace and love.
I will never forget the life changing power and love that was extended to us in the blackest of moments as a dear brother prayed in the tongues. Truly God's Holy Spirit interceded and was exercised in groanings too deep ever be uttered.
Gabriel was certainly an angel like his namesake and he wonderfully shared God's message of love with Cathy and myself.
Twenty three years after this miracle I love my Lord even more than ever,
Jack
Note: Two years after Gabriel's birth, Cathy and I would be blessed with the arrival of a little girl, Erin. Cathy had the same problem with this pregnancy and was diagnosed with what is termed an "incompetent cervix." She again began to abort in her mid trimester of pregnancy but through an amazing miracle her obstetrician caught it in just a nick of time and operated to sew her cervix closed. She was bedridden for five months and with much prayer and God's enduring grace a healthy eight pound Erin was born. Today she is the apple of my eye.
QuotePersonally I couldn't imagine not being able to pray in tongues. For me it opens up a myriad of realms of the Spirit as far as my prayer experience goes. No matter how down trodden I may feel I have found I can always pray and worship in the Spirit/tongues and enter into His gates of ministry both in receiving His grace and intercession for others.
I have a close friend that enjoys the deeper walk with our Lord. She lives a block from me and a couple times a month, spontaneously we will get together for prayer. When this saint prays in the Spirit I am always caught back by the power of God's presence and find myself humbled in obeisance. I can't explain it but it is a most glorious occurrence.
This below is a testimony I penned a couple years ago accounting the miraculous power wrought by praying in tongues. I hope it blesses you and gives credence to another foolish thing of God that is so misunderstood by the world and discounted by the carnal intellect.
:thumbsup:
I do speak in tongues and feel about it very similar as Jack.
Nevertheless I don't believe that one is only saved when they speak in tongues and I don't believe anymore its the proof of being filled with the Holy Spirit.
But I do believe that everyone can ask for it and could speak in tongues and that we are supposed to desire the gifts of the Holy Spirit whatever they may be.
I found this excerpt of the newsletter of Stephen E. Jones from "God's Kingdom Ministries" interesting in this regard:
Evidences of Pentecost
When I first began to learn of Pentecost in 1971, I was given the impression that only the gift of tongues could prove that I was a true Pentecostal. I found that this rather legalistic approach was not true at all.
Tongues is useful as an evidence of Pentecost, just as works is evidence of one's faith. But the evidence is not the same as the experience itself. The evidence is only an outward sign of the inward experience.
And there are many evidences. All of the gifts of the Spirit and all of the fruit of the Spirit are evidence of the Holy Spirit. Paul asked in 1 Cor. 12:30, " Have all the gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret ?" These were rhetorical questions. The answers are as obvious as the previous questions: " Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers ?"
Of course not. God has given various gifts and callings to all as He wills.
So I am not one who demands that all must speak in tongues to be a genuine Pentecostal. When I look at the origin of Pentecost at Mount Sinai , I see that the primary purpose of the feast is not for us to speak (in tongues), but for us to HEAR God. To hear is to obey (same word in both Hebrew and Greek). Pentecost is about hearing and obeying. Tongues may be evidence of this, presuming of course that what is spoken is by the unction of the Spirit.
The faith of some are overthrown when they are told that they are not true Pentecostals unless they have an ecstatic experience and break forth in tongues. Let me say that Smith Wigglesworth, that illiterate plumber-turned-miracle worker, testified that he received the baptism of the Holy Spirit a few months before he spoke in tongues. He said that God did this to show him that men were wrong in thinking that one must speak in tongues to have the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Pentecost comes to people in different ways. To some it comes silently, while it overwhelms others. With my wife, Pentecost came with overwhelming power, and she rode that "high" for three days in 1971. With me, however, it came more silently. I felt nothing, but the revelation of God began to build a Temple within me that has made me who I am today.
Because of the silent manner of Pentecost in me, I struggled with it for some years, wondering if I had missed out on something. But as I had time to observe the work of God in me, I came to recognize the Holy Spirit's presence.
From 1971-1981, I could speak in tongues whenever I felt the need. Usually, this was when I did not know how to pray or what to pray about.
Then from 1981-1991, I broke through on a new level and began to hear more clearly in English. I gave my testimony of this in my book, Hearing God's Voice .
From 1991-2001 the Father began to speak in a new way. It is like His words became concentrated"or maybe I simply came to understand His words in a deeper way. But He would often drop a single word or phrase into my heart, and it would take months to search it out in order to understand it.
In 2001 the Father became more specific, which allowed us to engage in the type of spiritual warfare that was required in that year.
God has obviously been working in ten-year cycles with me, with new directions and changes in each of the midpoints. Each enhancement of "hearing" has been further proof to me of my own Pentecostal experience.
I also discovered in the 1980's that there were many Pentecostals and Charismatics who did not have the ability to hear God's voice, and that there were many Baptists and Presbyterians who did. This was a mystery to me at first, for I discovered that blindness and deafness was near universal in all denominations, and that even an overwhelming Pentecostal experience with signs, wonders, and tongues did not necessarily open one's eyes and ears.
Now, mind you, I am not against these things. I am merely saying that even an overwhelming Pentecostal experience is not the full answer. True Pentecost has to do with hearing God and having the Holy Spirit write the law upon our hearts through hearing His voice. I find very little evidence of such a thing in mainstream Pentecost. In fact, I find that God seems to have called about the same percentage of people out of every denomination. Those who call themselves Pentecostal do not seem to have any particular advantage over those who do not. That fact took me very much by surprise.
I had to make some adjustments in my thinking because of this. I discovered that God had opened people's ears in the oddest of places, and had closed the ears of people in the places where one would think everyone would have ears to hear. I could no longer think that if I could just reach Charismatics and Pentecostals, they would hear and respond to the Word. No, I found that I had to wait on God and be watchful, for He would lead me to meet people with open ears that I would never have thought would be able to "hear" the word.
So the question is, Who is a true Pentecostal? One who subscribes to that denomination or name? Or is it a matter of the heart? I finally came to the conclusion that I don't care what you call them"I am looking for those who have ears to hear and eyes to see. These are my brethren.
And I believe that I have the mind of Christ in this, for I believe that this is how Jesus discerns people as well.
Good post Floyd :thumbsup:
.
The "evidence" of the Spirit is the "PRESENCE" of the Spirit! Most of the time, altho you can't put God
in a box....................He can peek if He so chooses! He can "lay low" if He chooses and it takes discernment to KNOW HIM! Takes a lifetime of learning, too, has for "me" ........
My baptism of the Spirit
came at a time in my life that I was "against" speaking in tongues, my preacher's wife said if she had
been God she would have "never" given ME the Spirit, that I was fighting the tongues too hard. But
I had been raised by Baptist, good Baptist, parents who knew the Spirit, but who didn't know tongues.
When I got baptised in the Spirit, I was in my early 30's .....and I saw "LIGHT" streaming down thru
the ceiling of that church, thinking in my mind "I wish I could" as the lady that prayed for me was
saying to me "Why are you resisting so hard, the Spirit of God is all over you, why won't you let Him
speak?" After the experience of looking at the audience thru those sunshiny rays, streaming down, I
was afraid it would never happen again, and I thought "Why did I resist something that beautiful?"
For years later, the Spirit would use me in "intercession" ...........for many things. It "seemed" as if
I could "speak in tongues" at will, but I learned over the process of trials and years that when the PRESENCE of the Lord was there, it really didn't matter if it was another language or English, that
The LORD's presence was the important part.
Also I have come to believe that much of what we "speak
in tongues" about is gradually "revealed" to us as we are able to bear it, hence, the "ceasing."
I have NEVER believed that one could not have the Spirit or even the baptism of the Spirit without
speaking in tongues, for I have "seen" the Spirit of God "manifest" greatly on people who have never
spoken in tongues. God gives the "gifts" severally as HE wills!
I believe there are "two" types of
annointings, the annointing that one can "feel" which I think speaking in tongues would be in that
order, and I believe that when JOHN said "but you have an annointing to KNOW" that it means just that,
your annointing is to KNOW all things, not all things that pertain to everyone else, but what God wants
YOU to know for your own life! There is an annointing for "burial" ........and there is an "annointing" for
raising us up! Praise the Lord! I hope I have helped someone's understanding here.
It sure does not
mean that all people have to have the same experiences I have had......because I fully understand
that people are dealt with differently by God......there are members "in particular" and there is a
"multitude" that followed Jesus "afar off" for "three days" which He will not and did not then send away
"empty." But He satisfies the longing soul. If it takes speaking in tongues to satisfy, then He will bring
it about. This is what "I" have come to believe.
You can never figure God out completely, ONLY TRUST HIM, ONLY TRUST HIM, HE will save you now!
:grin: Hi; this is Him, in you, the bottle, without the manifestation of speaking in tongues :bottlebump:
This is Him, in you, WITH the manifestation of speaking in tongues :angelharp:
All kidding aside, yes you can be saved without the manifestation of it. I was saved for 2 years before He finally broke thru my ignorance and my carnal mind's reasonings about it, and THEN I spoke in tongues. I honestly don't think I'd be alive right now without it. There is confusion sometimes over what is meant by the scriptures that deal with it. There is a personal prayer language, that EVERYONE, and yes I said EVERYONE, is entitled to, that comes from the baptism in the Spirit.
There is also a gift of tongues, which is a spiritual "works" gift, that always has an interpreter. The interpreter is the Holy Ghost Himself, in that person, or another person who has that gift in operation. This is NOT given to everyone, but as the Spirit wills. The above prayer language IS given to everyone that receives Him and then is received BY Him. That's why it's in there that some came up and asked if they had received since they had believed. First, you believe unto salvation, then you receive the Holy Ghost. It is clearly separated into two steps.
Jesus told John the Baptist when John tried to protest and told Him he had need of being baptized by Him, Jesus said to baptize Him anyway, because it was necessary for them to fulfill ALL righteousness. That means BOTH baptisms are necessary to fulfill ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS.
The language is the EVIDENCE that He rose from the dead. Evidence is actually a legal term, which is fitting and was chosen because our elder brother died and left us a last will and testament, and in it, He outlined what our inheritance was, and what proves we're an heir. Being baptized in His Spirit, is taking the MARK of ownership.
A mark in old times was a mark of ownership (usually done with a ring = He sits on the RIGHT HAND of the Father) to a particular piece of property that kings used to signify they had PURCHASED something, or had WRITTEN something. In this case, He purchased our "lands", and as the earnest or down payment of our inheritance, He marked us with His Spirit, with the EVIDENCE of speaking in tongues as proof of purchase. In this case, He both marked us, and the seal also begins to write upon the fleshy tablets of our heart, as this seal is a PERSON.
The other good news is, since no one purchases a "house" for themselves unless they intend to live in it, He will return for His purchased possession. Blessings to you in your walk....... :HeartThrob:.
Well, this all very interesting testimony and I don't discount it completely. But I remain of the mind that says that speaking in tongues is a sign for UNbelievers. I think that this, like many other rituals or patterns of the TRUE, means that one has spiritually matured enough to HEAR the Holy Spirit which other's, who have not yet reached this maturity, will hear as a different language.
When one speaks who's eaten solid food, those still on milk will not understand.
Do you all feel the same about baptism?
did Jesus speak in tongues?
I can't find anything in Scripture
did the appointed 12 Apostles speak in tongues?
at Pentecost yes...they spoke in tongues (understandable languages) so that all Jews who was present in Jerusalem for the Feast of Pentecost could understand in their own language the wonderful message of the Gospel..whether it was Greek, Latin or any other language of a country where the Jews were residing.
and this makes perfect sense to me that God would grant this gift to the Apostles on that day..thousands were converted to Christ that day!
I've found no other instance where they spoke in other languages, but just because Scripture doesn't mention it, it doesn't mean it didn't happen again..after all, the Apostles travelled all over the world spreading the Gospel, but not a lot is said about their travels in Scripture.
I have heard of and heard this so-called secret languages (tongues) or prayer languages people feel a need to have to talk to God..I have yet to find Scriptural justification for them..and their intended purpose.
Jesus spoke in parables....and ONCE MATURED the Apostles finally understood them. Jesus (aka Holy Spirit) is the true tongue speaker...the PATTERN is those speaking in tongues....literally...at Pentecost. There's a real brick and mortar temple...a pattern of the true.... and then there's the TRUE TEMPLE....your heart. There was a baptism into water...a pattern.... and then there's the TRUE baptism into His name.
What say you?
Quote from: julzabro2 on August 15, 2007, 04:30:32 PM
Jesus spoke in parables....and ONCE MATURED the Apostles finally understood them. Jesus (aka Holy Spirit) is the true tongue speaker...the PATTERN is those speaking in tongues....literally...at Pentecost. There's a real brick and mortar temple...a pattern of the true.... and then there's the TRUE TEMPLE....your heart. There was a baptism into water...a pattern.... and then there's the TRUE baptism into His name.
What say you?
mmm...I see a "pattern" here :winkgrin:
from Scripture i find that Jesus explained most of the parables to his "inner circle" on request, for at first they didn't understand them.
as for baptism..Jesus was baptized with water and the Holy Spirit "came upon him" on the same occasion..shouldn't that be our pattern?
Tongues ............... just like everything else of God. It is something that is hidden and revealed ............ there is a counterfeit along side the real. Hard to argue with the man with the experience. Would I like to see my children baptized in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues ........... ya betcha, I want everything God has to give them to equip them in this walk.
I have mentioned earlier that I could not imagine not being able to pray in the Spirit. It is an every day occurrence with me and sometimes it is as spontaneous an event as any in my walk. Yesterday I was contemplating a situation and to my surprise I found my self unconsciously praying in the tongues. That blessed me as I find the deeper I walk in Him the more it becomes like a subconscious exercise ........... especially with regard to the difficult areas of life I must pass through. It is as though He is carrying me.
Jack
PS. that ol' tongue is the littlest member and oh my, the power of that little booger .............. there is spirit that would do everything to deny it being given over to God.
Jesus' baptism into water IS our pattern, but just as the TRUE Temple is not of brick and mortar neither is our TRUE baptism of water....it's OF Him!
Quote from: julzabro2 on August 15, 2007, 04:59:55 PM
Jesus' baptism into water IS our pattern, but just as the TRUE Temple is not of brick and mortar neither is our TRUE baptism of water....it's OF Him!
agreed, He is our pattern..and what was right for Him in the eyes of God, is right for us..if he is in us, we will humbly follow his example :bigGrin:
Quote from: Hennessey on August 15, 2007, 04:53:18 PM
I have mentioned earlier that I could not imagine not being able to pray in the Spirit. It is an every day occurrence with me and sometimes it is as spontaneous an event as any in my walk. Yesterday I was contemplating a situation and to my surprise I found my self unconsciously praying in the tongues.
Hi Hennesey,
for my understanding...are you saying that "to pray in the Spirit" one needs to pray in tongues?
Is this you personal conviction or is this indicated in Scripture somewhere?
please enlighten me as I am still only a student.
thanks :thumbsup:
Quote from: Hennessey on August 15, 2007, 04:53:18 PM
Tongues ............... just like everything else of God. It is something that is hidden and revealed ............ there is a counterfeit along side the real. Hard to argue with the man with the experience. Would I like to see my children baptized in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues ........... ya betcha, I want everything God has to give them to equip them in this walk.
I have mentioned earlier that I could not imagine not being able to pray in the Spirit. It is an every day occurrence with me and sometimes it is as spontaneous an event as any in my walk. Yesterday I was contemplating a situation and to my surprise I found my self unconsciously praying in the tongues. That blessed me as I find the deeper I walk in Him the more it becomes like a subconscious exercise ........... especially with regard to the difficult areas of life I must pass through. It is as though He is carrying me.
Jack
PS. that ol' tongue is the littlest member and oh my, the power of that little booger .............. there is spirit that would do everything to deny it being given over to God.
Yes, can definetley identify with this. :thumbsup:
Quote from: noname on August 15, 2007, 05:13:47 PM
Quote from: Hennessey on August 15, 2007, 04:53:18 PM
I have mentioned earlier that I could not imagine not being able to pray in the Spirit. It is an every day occurrence with me and sometimes it is as spontaneous an event as any in my walk. Yesterday I was contemplating a situation and to my surprise I found my self unconsciously praying in the tongues.
Hi Hennesey,
for my understanding...are you saying that "to pray in the Spirit" one needs to pray in tongues?
Is this you personal conviction or is this indicated in Scripture somewhere?
please enlighten me as I am still only a student.
thanks :thumbsup:
No not necessarily. We may have some confusion over semantics as we often use the term "praying in the Spirit" (Ephesians 6:18, Jude 1:20) to mean praying in tongues. One can pray with understanding also and that also being Spirit led.
"Where we see that praying in or with the Spirit identified as praying in tongues is I Corinthians 14:14-15 where Paul said, "For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding."
blessings and I hope this helps,
Jack
Quote from: Floyd on August 15, 2007, 05:24:35 PM
Quote from: Hennessey on August 15, 2007, 04:53:18 PM
Tongues ............... just like everything else of God. It is something that is hidden and revealed ............ there is a counterfeit along side the real. Hard to argue with the man with the experience. Would I like to see my children baptized in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues ........... ya betcha, I want everything God has to give them to equip them in this walk.
I have mentioned earlier that I could not imagine not being able to pray in the Spirit. It is an every day occurrence with me and sometimes it is as spontaneous an event as any in my walk. Yesterday I was contemplating a situation and to my surprise I found my self unconsciously praying in the tongues. That blessed me as I find the deeper I walk in Him the more it becomes like a subconscious exercise ........... especially with regard to the difficult areas of life I must pass through. It is as though He is carrying me.
Jack
PS. that ol' tongue is the littlest member and oh my, the power of that little booger .............. there is spirit that would do everything to deny it being given over to God.
Yes, can definetley identify with this. :thumbsup:
Hey Floyd, I was hoping sometime you might E-mail me or PM me and let me know how your praying was going. Last time we traded posts you were really being blessed as you entered into new and deeper realms of prayer.
I have thought often of you and wondered how that was going. I was dismissed from the board for awhile and last I heard you were being encouraged to come to America and sell coffee. That was second hand info but it did get me giggling. :laughing7:
Be blessed my friend,
Jack
:bigGrin: Hi; I've shared this before, but I wouldn't know this if I hadn't experienced it myself. The tongues they heard on the day of Pentecost were not an earthly foreign language, but a spiritual manifestation of a spiritual gift. I read that as Jerusalem was a crossroads, it was estimated that there were probably at least 18 different nations, therefore 18 languages in the audience. The "miracle" of speaking in tongues, was both that they spoke something never heard before, AND that all present heard it supernaturally in THEIR own language. That is not possible with man, but is possible with God.
:cloud9: I was in a church one time where a woman got a gift of tongues message; THIS is the one for unbelievers, not your personal prayer language. Then a few minutes later, and she got the interpretation. The thing was, she said, in tongues the last sentence/syllables 3 times. At the same time she said it, I heard, IN THE SPIRIT, what He said to the body in that thrice repeated phrase. It was, "I love you, I love you, I love you."
:HeartThrob: When she got ready to speak the interpretation, the last three line's interpretation were, "I love you, I love you, I love you." I had heard the tongues with my natural ears, but heard the interpretation with my spiritual ones. THAT is how the gift of tongues works, and the gift of interpretation. It all starts and finishes with the Holy Ghost, who does the works. If it was otherwise, then the Word lies, because we are told the Holy Ghost does the works, and that gifting is a "work" of the Spirit.
:thumbsup: In addition, Jesus came to reverse the curses, and that includes the curse over Babel, where God confused the languages of man. No more confusion; all that are baptized into His Spirit speak with the tongue of the Spirit. Paul said he spoke with the tongues of angels and forbid not to speak in tongues.
:Shoot: The carnal mind fights this more than anything else, because the carnal mind is enmity against God, it's His enemy. Thus, the tongues of fire come upon our heads, so that no enemy can stand in His presence.
:pointlaugh: I shared once how I was in a church I was led to 3 months after coming to the Lord. I had a man get a word of knowledge for me, while I was waiting to get dressed to get baptized in water in the restroom. It came over the loudspeaker in there, and I had not even been in the sanctuary yet in my life. I came out, and the man that I came to meet there asked me if I had heard the word the pastor got. I told him I had, and knew it was for me. He practically drug me down the aisle. I saw people there lined up, waiting for him to pray for them. I had never seen anything like this in my life, they were falling over backwards as soon as he prayed for them.
:laughing7: I, of course, immediately began to pray that God would forgive me for coming into this la-la-land and asked Him to not let that man touch me like he did the others, convinced he had a bad spirit, LOL.......God didn't let him come near me. He gave me his word for me, and said God said He wants to give you more power if you'll trust Him for it. I thought to myself, "AHA! THAT'S how he gets 'em!" and I wouldn't agree to anything, remaining silent for what seemed like an eternity. I finally gave in, after of course, telling God to myself, that if this is not You I don't want it, just so I could get out of there.
:winkgrin: God had other plans. Just before it hit me right between the eyes, I saw thru my spiritual eyes, the roof open, the heavens opened, and saw a fire with a tail on it like a comet coming thru it and then it hit. I was instantly slain in the Spirit, and laid there spinning within myself it seemed, hearing this really loud tongues inside myself. I had no idea it was IN me, I thought it was the people on the outside of me. After about of half hour of intense peace washing over me and thru me, I was peeled up off the floor by the man who had me go in there. It was 4 months, before it even dawned on me, I had seen the tongues (tail of the comet) of fire that fell on the day of Pentecost. Like Jack said, it's hard to argue with a man with an experience......and you're right Jack.....the tongue no man can tame.......that's why it takes the Spirit of God to tame it. Blessings to you.....
That was good Card. :thumbsup:
QuoteBut I remain of the mind that says that speaking in tongues is a sign for UNbelievers
Do you mean other "people" or the "unbelieving" flesh in yourself?
either or...them as unbelievers or me when I was one. It's a sign. But, now, we have the mind of Christ...don't we?
You can certainly be led by the Spirit in all that we do including praying in English. But, Pauls said that when you pray in the spirit your spirit prays and your mind is unfruitful. So praying in the spirit is praying in other tongues.
Jude said that we build up our most holy faith praying in the spirit. Jesus taught that faith grows as it is used and it takes faith to pray in a language that you don not understand, and thus, your mind is unfruitful. We are so dependent upon our natural mind to live in this world that it is hard at first to put your mind in neutral and to let your spirit pray through your yielded tongue. But it gets easier as your faith is grown in this way.
Another added bonus is that you can use praying in tongues to purposely quiet your mind when your are fretting or worrying over what to do in a situation. When I find myself at a crossroad and lying in bed trying to decide what to do by weighing my options with my mind, I often will start to pray in the spirit to make my mind shut up so I can hear God on the matter. Once I pray through my mind screaming like an unweined child for attention, my mind shuts down or becomes unfruitful and the answer can then seap up from my spirit to my understanding.
John
QuoteAnother added bonus is that you can use praying in tongues to purposely quiet your mind when your are fretting or worrying over what to do in a situation. When I find myself at a crossroad and lying in bed trying to decide what to do by weighing my options with my mind, I often will start to pray in the spirit to make my mind shut up so I can hear God on the matter. Once I pray through my mind screaming like an unweined child for attention, my mind shuts down or becomes unfruitful and the answer can then seap up from my spirit to my understanding.
John, that is so big. One of the reasons I could never think of not having such a gift. I wrote of it in an earlier post.
Thanks,
Jack
PS also works well in emergencies when our minds are frozen in fear or just bewildered ............. "miraculous" is the description I would use.
Quote from: julzabro2 on August 15, 2007, 08:16:08 PM
But, now, we have the mind of Christ...don't we?
Exactly!...is the mind of Christ and the spirit of Christ two things and do they contradict each other?
Aren't we to love God with our "whole heart, mind and soul"?
I see a lot of references made to Paul when referring to speaking in tongues...are there other witnesses to this besides Paul or that which he wrote?
I can't find in Scripture any references involving Jesus or the twelve appointed apostles...this worries me somewhat
as Cardinal earlier stated, the tongues at Pentecost were languages that people could understand (earthly languages being spoken where the Jews/Israel resided)..I do not see any mention of "special prayer languages" or "tongues"
if this is a doctrine it is indeed a strange one, as i do not see Jesus or his apostles referring to it or staing that it is necessary for any kind of prayer..if the Master does not require it, then it is not necessary...simple as that (for me anyway)
Paul spoke of tongues of angels and of men, and James said that if any man could bridle the tongue, the same was a perfect man. I therefore see tongues as a means to perfect us. Not that it is needed to come into perfection, but rather as an aid. I do speak in tongues. Also, not all tongues are known languages, else why did Paul say that some have the gift of interpretation? A Chinese visitor hearing me speak in Chinese (just an example) wouldn't need any interpreter.
Tongues in church is for a sign to the unbelievers, and in some instances it can be confirmation to a believer when it is accompanied by interpretation, knowing that what was spoken was not planned, but came directly from the Lord.
Tongues in private is for personal edification, and an aid in bringing oneself into submission and perfection.
Tongues were never to be the evidence of having the Holy Spirit. It was to be a sign, in church, to the unbelievers, that the Lord was in control of His people, to bring them to Christ.
Not speaking in tongues is also not a sign of not having the Holy spirit. The only thing it is a sign of is that you don't speak in tongues! It doesn't make you any less spiritual, either.
I heard a preacher (who did speak in tongues) say once, that the sign of receiving the Holy Spirit wasn't speaking in tongues, it was opening your mouth, and for the first time in your life, nothing stupid came out! (he was kidding)
yes i do, for about 25 years now.
:cloud9: Hi; I think you misunderstood what I was saying about those known languages. They HEARD the tongues (unknown language of the Spirit) in their own known language. That is the miracle of the gift. The people weren't speaking known languages; the witnesses there said, "How is it that we HEAR every man in our own language....". God plants the hearing ear, and He allowed all present to hear what the Spirit was saying thru these men that day, each in their own language. If 18 different languages were actually being spoken at the same time thru a whole lot of people, no one would have heard anything!
Conversely, I have been present in church when a man got a gift of tongues, a message given to the body that turned out to be for a visiting unbeliever, who happened to be from the Ukraine. She stood up sobbing afterwards, asking if that man knew her birth language, because it was her language and the word was for her. Got has and continues to do some marvelous things thru the speaking gifts He imparts thru His Spirit.
I met a minister once who was told to come to this country to speak, for the first time. Problem was he didn't know any English. He was assured an interpreter would meet him at the airport. He arrived, no interpreter, but the person who met him there took him where he was to speak that night. He was panicking, asking God what to do. God told him to open his mouth and He would fill it. He spoke for 2 hours in an unknown (to him) language. He could tell it must be good, because the people were nodding in agreement sometimes, laughing in others. The language was English.
There is a place in there, where it was said that Jesus groaned within himself with groans that could not be uttered. I believe that was from spiritual intercession, because I too, have experienced the Spirit taking me into travail like that. But the main reason I think there is no witness to it, is because He had the Spirit without measure as the Head, and the earnest of our inheritance, literally means "a portion". He gave us a portion, and Paul was called apparently to be the one that explained how that portion operated thru the gifts.
Off topic a little here, but remember Paul was not taught by the apostles, but by the Lord Himself, after His death and ascension. I think that was why he was given what he was. He didn't have the memory of the flesh of Jesus; he knew Him after the Spirit, not after the flesh and so said we are to from henceforth, know no man after the flesh. Peter was the only one, it seems, that got the revelation from the Father, as to who was really speaking to him thru the man Jesus, when He walked in the flesh, ie. "Thou are the Christ, the son of the living God." Flesh and blood cannot reveal that to you, but only the Father, which is in heaven.
Paul had that revelation another way, when He saw NO MAN, but only a great light that told him he was persecuting HIM, in a people, a many-membered body, multiple habitations, a city made without hands. Blessings.......
Excellent points, Cardinal! Thank you for that! :bigGrin:
:cloud9: Wanted to add something else here.....the soul is the candle of the Lord. What does a lit candle look like, but something with a "tongue" of fire on it? Without the baptism, our candle is not "lit", and since God is a consuming fire and desires to consume our soul..........well, you do the math :wink1:
Quote from: Cardinal on August 16, 2007, 05:24:00 PM
:cloud9: Wanted to add something else here.....the soul is the candle of the Lord. What does a lit candle look like, but something with a "tongue" of fire on it? Without the baptism, our candle is not "lit", and since God is a consuming fire and desires to consume our soul..........well, you do the math :wink1:
LOL Good one!
I have a question....to those of you who have spoken in tongues or witnessed it. Do you think when the Bible says "speaking in tongues" or "gift of tongues" that it ONLY refers to the actual/literal speaking in tongues or do you suppose that it also refers to the fact that those who are young in faith will not understand what those who have spiritually matured will see????
:cloud9: I think the Bible was actually talking about the spiritual gifts. But I also think that from a spiritual perspective, sometimes it does sound like someone is speaking in another tongue by virtue of what has been made life in them, by the Spirit. It's only natural, since His ways are not our ways. Was that what you meant?
Yeah, that's what I meant... :bigGrin:
I guess I always wonder, tho, if there is a copy of the gifts as other things...as there was a copy of the temple, the feasts, the Sabbath
:cloud9: Sure there is.....one only had to turn on the TV to see any number of counterfeits such as "psychics", ect. And He knew there would be, because Satan comes IMMEDIATELY to steal, that's his job and he does it very well. So that's why He told us He would not give us a stone, a snake, ect. if we ask Him for something.
Quote from: julzabro2 on August 16, 2007, 05:32:55 PM
I have a question....to those of you who have spoken in tongues or witnessed it. Do you think when the Bible says "speaking in tongues" or "gift of tongues" that it ONLY refers to the actual/literal speaking in tongues or do you suppose that it also refers to the fact that those who are young in faith will not understand what those who have spiritually matured will see????
Valid question J2.
For mine, I would agree with the latter.
When paul spoke ,he told us when he was a child he spoke as a child [as one who was yet to be born of the promise - ie still a pharisee as one UNDER Law] bY THIS he spoke in one Tongue,( purely carnal and physical by the literal sence of the LAW] but when the spirit was Given at Pentecost ,ALL THINGS not only tongues became New , therefore he spoke with a "spiritual tongue " comparing spiritual with spiritual.
[Why are the Pharisees often referred to as Deaf [or blind- no eyes to SEE or HEAR) for mine they walked by LAW not by faith, therefore still carnal and blind to the spiritual truth which the law pointed us toward , Christ Himself.
In Conclusion , again for mine, Paul talked [if you will in tongues,) one to those under the law still but babes ( carnal) and another to those who were walking by Faith , Now SONS and HEIRS , who Understood the spiritual Reality of the written Law and its true purpose who could HEAR the TRUTH= Christ) NO LONGER tossed to and fro confusing Law with Faith WHICH MANY EARLY CONVERTS were still struggling with.
just my two pennies J2 :2c:
Blessings
Taffy
:2c: What you are seeing is true for a reason. Everything in the natural is a mirror image of some truth that exists in His Spirit, because He poured Himself into His creation. Therefore, He cannot be any less in the natural than what He is in the Spirit. What you are seeing is the natural truth that witnesses a spiritual one. Blessings to all......
As far as Jesus and the original 12 speaking in tongues I would add two things. (1) There are certain things that God keeps to Himself as far as times and seasons. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues came "when the Day of Pentecost was fully come". This was a fulfillment of the type and shadow when the children of Israel met God on Sinai to learn His laws and ways and to begin being led by His Spirit. No one, not even Jesus and the original 12 could receive this gift until this time was fully come. (2) The purpose of the Baptism was to give us the ability to follow God and learn His Word which was not necessary when the living Word was there among them. Jesus said that when He wnet away, He would not leave them comfortless, but would send the promise of the Spirit which had been given to the fathers. Jesus was perfected in hearing God so had no need of this gift and 11 of the 12 (excepting Judas) were in the upper room and received this gift and ability when the time was right. Jesus instructed them after His resurrection to wait in Jerusalem for it.
John
I agree, Taffy! :thumbsup:
I don't want to imply that I discount those who have claimed to "literally" speak in tongues, but I was given the same understanding as you....at least, thus far.
Thanks for that and, btw, I like how you called me J2....that's a kool abbreviation! :winkgrin:
Quote from: julzabro2 on August 16, 2007, 07:36:26 PM
I agree, Taffy! :thumbsup:
I don't want to imply that I discount those who have claimed to "literally" speak in tongues, but I was given the same understanding as you....at least, thus far.
Thanks for that and, btw, I like how you called me J2....that's a kool abbreviation! :winkgrin:
J2..thats cool..Glad ya like it , saves me typos...he ha!
At times ,Its encouraging to know others see what you also do....sort a makes you feel a part of the Body. :icon_flower:
Blessings Taffy